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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 13 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2600<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core<BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design <BR>
Re: Roc: Deckplans...<BR>
Re: Starship Quirks<BR>
Re: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW &SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
Re: Lucan: A Different Viewpoint<BR>
Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core<BR>
Re:  GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
Re: Roc: Deckplans...<BR>
Re: Borrowed People<BR>
Question for Loren  RE: GURPS Charecter Design <BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") > <BR>
Re:  GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design<BR>
Bohemian Class SDB<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:17:00 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
On 06/13/00 at 08:24 PM,  Eric Freitas <ericfrei@gte.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, you wrote:<BR>
>> Speed of execution of any particlar custom written programs is so rarely the<BR>
>> actual bottleneck in a system these days that I get very annoyed about<BR>
>> programmers spending lots of time trying to reduce their execution time by a<BR>
>> few milliseconds here & there, unless the requirements are given in<BR>
>> milliseconds, which for the majority of systems they are not.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>The exception being embedded systems with limited resources.  Then you<BR>
>really do need the programmers that can write optimized C code, with the<BR>
>ability to modify the assembly code when necessary.  Some compilers don't<BR>
>optimize very  well under certain circumstances.<BR>
<BR>
>Of course you could always write the code in assembly (he he..)<BR>
<BR>
And for that sort of optimization you probably *should* write that<BR>
portion of the code in assembly.  <shrug><BR>
<BR>
PC's in my game are struggling with these sort of problems right<BR>
now.  They have had to install new hardware and have a number of<BR>
compatability problems among the pieces of the new systems:  old<BR>
networked computers using software specificlaly for the old<BR>
mainframe, but running on the new used mainframe.  Some works fine,<BR>
some *appears* to work, some appears to mostly work, and some<BR>
doesn't work at all.  Some can be fixed with modifications, some<BR>
might be fixed that way, and some will have to be purchased (or<BR>
written) from scratch. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:34:01 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core<BR>
<BR>
On 06/13/00 at 03:27 PM,  Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> I guess the thing that bothers me about it is just the assumption that she<BR>
>> would have been married.  We don't tend to make these assumptions about<BR>
>> men. <BR>
<BR>
>Aren't our contemporary and historical examples of royalty generally <BR>
>expected and pressured to marry? How many US Presidents have been <BR>
>unmarried?<BR>
<BR>
James Buchanan, 1857-1861, I think that's it.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:02:22 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design <BR>
<BR>
Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I think you are missing a point here, Peter. Points are paid for special<BR>
> relationships like Ally, yes. But no generic system I've ever seen forces<BR>
> the PC to pay for positive relationships with other PCs. <BR>
<BR>
Than the GURPS rules are written improperly. The GURPS rules<BR>
clearly states that "The GURPS system is balanced. All 100-<BR>
point characters start off "equivalent" although not the same."<BR>
The intent of this statement, if believed, requires that<BR>
PC's pay for positive relationships with other PC's or<BR>
they will not be equivilant to Pc's with no positive<BR>
relationships with other PC's.<BR>
<BR>
If Bob's character can count on Sue's charecter to be there<BR>
for him and back him up and my charecter can not count on her<BR>
charecter than this difference must be explained (and paid for)<BR>
in GURPS systems mechanics terms. Is Sue's charecter chooses to<BR>
back up her husband (Bob's character) because she loves him then<BR>
her charecter sheet needs to have a Sense of Duty (loved ones)<BR>
and a Quirk: Loves her husband on it and Bill's charecter<BR>
sheet needs to have an Ally: Wife on it.<BR>
<BR>
> I've seen<BR>
> disadvantages like rivalry between PCs but never anything that encourages<BR>
> cooperation, which most RPG situations should do anyway (otherwise, why<BR>
> would the characters associate in the first place?). The points have to be<BR>
> paid when there is the possibility of bringing in OUTSIDE assistance to the<BR>
> PC group under the control of the GM (where there is bound to be<BR>
> omniscience-leak from time to time).<BR>
<BR>
There is no such thing as a PC group. People are represented <BR>
in GURPS terms as characters. Some of these charecters will be <BR>
played by the GM (non player characters) and some of them will<BR>
be played by players (player characters). All major aspects of<BR>
these charecters behavior, assets, and liabilities must be modeled <BR>
by GURPS system mechanics. Who is plying this charecter is not <BR>
at issue.<BR>
<BR>
The GURPS rules state that all 100 point charecters are equivalent.<BR>
Thus a PC Ally should be no different than an NPC Ally. Other<BR>
player charecters who help your player charecter are outside<BR>
assistance. <BR>
<BR>
> If you want to look at it another way, an Ally advantage is a way of having<BR>
> help whose availability is based on a mechanical process, a die roll, while<BR>
> any relationship with another PC is based on the interaction of the players<BR>
> and availability of help is based on how well the player can convice the<BR>
> other player to agree to his plan. And I don't think a PC should have to pay<BR>
> for that.<BR>
> The way you seem to be looking at it, all PCs should be taking Ally<BR>
> advantages for the other PCs, after all, they closely cooperate and are<BR>
> generally  together in an adventure. <BR>
<BR>
No. GURPS states "In one sense the other PC's who adventure with<BR>
you are allies. But they can be unreliable allies indeed. Often<BR>
they are only chance acquaintances, first encountered at a roadside<BR>
tavern only hours ago. They have their own hidden goals, ethics, <BR>
and motives, which may or may not coincide with your own.<BR>
<BR>
An NPC Ally on the other hand is wholly reliable. Perhaps you<BR>
fought side-by-side in an extended campaign, trained under the <BR>
same master, or grew up in the same village. The two of you trust<BR>
each other implicitly. You travel together, fight back-to-back, <BR>
share rations in hard times, trade watches throughout the night."<BR>
<BR>
GURP 3rd Ed Rev p 23.<BR>
<BR>
I treat every word of this as gospel except for the word _NPC_.<BR>
The word NPC makes a distinction between PC's and NPC's that<BR>
the rest of the GURPS rules, which clearly state that all 100<BR>
point charecters, PC or NPC, are equivilant do not.<BR>
<BR>
To me any time that two charecters  "trust each other implicitly. <BR>
You travel together, fight back-to-back, share rations in hard <BR>
times, trade watches throughout the night." GURP 3rd Ed Rev p 23.<BR>
They are Allies and must pay points for this relationship. At the<BR>
start of most campaigns most PC's are not Allies in GURPS<BR>
terms. If two players decide that their charecters have an<BR>
especially close relationship that meets the description above <BR>
they must pay points for it. if this means that half the experience<BR>
the charecters earn must go towards paying for each other as<BR>
Allies than I have no problems with that.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:04:19 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Deckplans...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 10:55:am<BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Deckplans...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On 06/14/00 at 10:39 AM,  "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au> said:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >Trouble with this is, is that not every buyer is on this list to see the<BR>
> >logic behind it.  That means that young Mr Not-connected or Mr Non-TML'er<BR>
> >will see the product as lacking ("Look how slack these bastards are, I<BR>
> >paid $40 [the rough Aussie equivalent to $US20] for these plans and they<BR>
> >tell me *I* have to make my own clear grid/hex!  How LOUSY is that!??!")<BR>
><BR>
> >So, unless the majority of purchasers live on this list, it's probably a<BR>
> >bad move for SJG, image-wise?<BR>
><BR>
> <shrug> So, include a couple of A4 sized overlays and a sheet of paper<BR>
with suggestions about making copies if you want more or other scales. I<BR>
wouldn't feel gyped.<BR>
><BR>
> Eris<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Actually Eris, along those lines, I'd be more in favour of using the<BR>
un-ruled plans as a "standard" and include suggestions about making overlays<BR>
"should the GM/ref desire to use them..."  The owner of the product could<BR>
then make their own transparencies as "suggested" or even rule their own<BR>
grid directly upon the plans themselves (some people do that kind of stuff<BR>
you know :) as "suggested."  That way, YOU (and others here with the same<BR>
thoughts) win with the make your own to your own scale line of preference,<BR>
and the purchaser can think he's the clever boy by making his own as the<BR>
product suggested doing so... so he did!<BR>
<BR>
I like the overlay idea myself, how I get it is not a problem.  I do know<BR>
that if a product comes out knowing that a purchaser would like an overlay<BR>
and tells you to make your own, I think it is scummy (and I don't think I'm<BR>
alone in that assumption) in the non-on-line gamer world, but if I know it's<BR>
just a standard (not every plan I have seen for game buildings I have seen<BR>
are grided or hexed), but if there are useful suggestions on how to make<BR>
your own overlay "if you desire to use one," well that's a different tin of<BR>
sardines (it's a mind-f... errrr, mind-nookie...).<BR>
<BR>
So, basically, I agree, it's just putting it in practice that SJG (or any<BR>
other business) has to be careful about I think.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:04:13 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Quirks<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Picture a Hiver or a K'kree trying to figure out a bidet for the first<BR>
> time. :-)<BR>
<BR>
If it's a hiver, 'how thoughtful of these humans to provide a drinking<BR>
fountain'.  Some things are best not considered.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:27:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW &SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> This kind of reaction is one of the reasons I'm rather pessimistic about<BR>
>> great and vast changes in the way people relate happening even over the<BR>
>> next 3000 years.<BR>
><BR>
> Why should the next 3000 years be any different from the last<BR>
> 3000?<BR>
<BR>
Because the *last* 3000 years are pretty damn different from *themselves*?<BR>
<BR>
3000 years ago is (roughly) 1000 BC. Rome wouldn't be founded for more<BR>
than 350 years. If I recall correctly, this poet named Homer was either<BR>
just about to put together the Iliad and the Odyssey, or it hadn't been<BR>
*that* long since he had. Egypt was "merely" 2000 years old. <BR>
<BR>
Hell, just look at Roman society *2000* years ago. Did you know that a<BR>
father could *legally* have any of his children or their children put<BR>
to death. Even if they were adults? And that's merely one example of<BR>
how diffeent "Western Civilization" was back then. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:07:26 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Lucan: A Different Viewpoint<BR>
<BR>
> A great tragic anti-hero, or something like that.<BR>
> Very cool ideas, indeed.<BR>
><BR>
> Rob<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.  I dislike fantasy in the guise of Science Fiction and have always<BR>
felt<BR>
that realistic personalities add an air of realism to the game as a whole.<BR>
<BR>
Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:14:17 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On 06/13/00 at 03:27 PM,  Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> I guess the thing that bothers me about it is just the assumption that she<BR>
> >> would have been married.  We don't tend to make these assumptions about<BR>
> >> men.<BR>
> <BR>
> >Aren't our contemporary and historical examples of royalty generally<BR>
> >expected and pressured to marry? How many US Presidents have been<BR>
> >unmarried?<BR>
> <BR>
> James Buchanan, 1857-1861, I think that's it.<BR>
<BR>
ISTR that the United States have also had a couple of widower<BR>
presidents, although I'd have to check.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:16:53 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
<BR>
"N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > Yes it does state that. I think that statement is wrong and<BR>
> > contradicts the basic GURPS design philosophy (see below).<BR>
> <BR>
> Eris, get a bottle of champagne. Truly it is a great day for Heresy!<BR>
<BR>
I am not a heretic. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I believe in following the games written rules. However when <BR>
these rules are contradictory (as the GURPS rules are) than <BR>
I believe you ought to value the more basic design philosophy <BR>
(which in GURPS is "All 100 point characters are equivalent" <BR>
and "Advantages must be paid for.") over statements in the <BR>
text of one advantage (Allies in GURPS). YMMV<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:27:55 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Deckplans...<BR>
<BR>
On 06/14/00 at 12:04 PM,  "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Actually Eris, along those lines, I'd be more in favour of using the<BR>
>un-ruled plans as a "standard" and include suggestions about making<BR>
>overlays "should the GM/ref desire to use them..."  The owner of the<BR>
>product could then make their own transparencies as "suggested" or even<BR>
>rule their own grid directly upon the plans themselves (some people do<BR>
>that kind of stuff you know :) as "suggested."  That way, YOU (and others<BR>
>here with the same thoughts) win with the make your own to your own scale<BR>
>line of preference, and the purchaser can think he's the clever boy by<BR>
>making his own as the product suggested doing so... so he did!<BR>
<BR>
That's what I've been saying all along. I must have been unclear. My suggestion is for the plans to be unruled, and the clear overlays to be hexes or squares. Whether those overlays came with the plans or were just suggested as options doesn't concern me. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:24:22 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Borrowed People<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> This is mainly to Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
>     I seem to have borrowed one of your characters for use in my Trinity<BR>
> universe...What are your thoughts on that...<BR>
> <BR>
> To all the Listers...what are people's thoughts on this...Is I okay to<BR>
> "borrow" people to populate a universe?<BR>
> <BR>
> Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob,<BR>
<BR>
Heck yeah!  Borrowing other peoples' inspiration is a <BR>
great way to color your Traveller universe, and of course<BR>
imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.  I can't<BR>
imagine who wouldn't be pleased that another finds work<BR>
good enough to borrow and use (that's not copywrit, etc!).<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:34:14 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Question for Loren  RE: GURPS Charecter Design <BR>
<BR>
At 08:23 PM 6/13/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> >Yes it does state that. I think that statement is wrong and<BR>
> >contradicts the basic GURPS design philosophy (see below).<BR>
<BR>
<gobs and gobs of snipage><BR>
<BR>
AIR (As I Recall) There is already a Dr. Kromm ruling that PCs can't be <BR>
bought as Allies by other PCs.<BR>
<BR>
Loren, could you find out if there is a archive of Sean Punch's rulings <BR>
somewhere on the internet?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:41:08 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
At 05:50 PM 6/13/00 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
>At 01:37 PM 6/13/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >> Traveller *really* needs a "101 social structures" supplement. But we'd<BR>
> >> need a semi-professional anthropologist to help with examples and make<BR>
> >> sure we didn't screw up too badly with regards to "consequences" of any<BR>
> >> structures that have historical analogs.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >That'd be a fun supplement to write.  Anyone else wanna?<BR>
><BR>
>Count me in.<BR>
<BR>
Here is a site that can give you an idea of the various types of kinship <BR>
systems there are out there.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/kintitle.html<BR>
<BR>
What if Arbellatra came from a matriarchal society where who the husband <BR>
was is considered unimportant?<BR>
<BR>
>--<BR>
><BR>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:39:00 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") > <BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > From: N.I.C.Bradbeer [mailto:N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk]<BR>
<BR>
> > Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > > Yes it does state that. I think that statement is wrong and<BR>
> > > contradicts the basic GURPS design philosophy (see below).<BR>
<BR>
> > Eris, get a bottle of champagne. Truly it is a great day for Heresy!<BR>
> > Nick<BR>
<BR>
> It certainly is. I always thought Peter was under a Geas to only go by<BR>
> the strict letter of the rules, rather than attempt to divine the<BR>
> underlying principle and 'design philosophy' of the game.<BR>
<BR>
I am. However when a game states its underlying principle and<BR>
design philosophy explicitly, as GURPS does when it says "All<BR>
100 point characters are equivalent." GURPS Basic Set 3rd Ed<BR>
Rev p 11 and then goes on to contradict this philosophy with<BR>
a single wrong word (NPC) in the description of the Ally advantage<BR>
than I am forced to resolve this controversy in terms of the<BR>
officially stated general principle over the inappropriately<BR>
written specific rule.<BR>
<BR>
> Congratulations Peter, you are free of the Tuatha de'Daanans curse at<BR>
> last!<BR>
<BR>
At this time I would like to state for the record that<BR>
"I am not now, nor have I ever been under the influence<BR>
of the Tuatha de'Daanan." "Nor do I have any ability to<BR>
occasionally have accurate prescient hunches." "Nor do<BR>
I have any ability to occasionally affect the throw of a <BR>
die." :|<BR>
<BR>
As far as anyone on the TML knows I am not really the<BR>
great great grandchild of a young Irish woman who spent<BR>
a night of passion with a strange traveler who explained<BR>
away his special powers by claiming to be a Gypsy Prince.<BR>
Nor did the child of this union, my great grandmother,<BR>
immigrate to the United States and live until the age of 97<BR>
in a small house with a large garden whose flowers seemed<BR>
to grow very well and bloom almost unseasonably.<BR>
As this mysterious stranger was not one of the Fair Folk<BR>
I do not possess the Sidhe Blood/1 Advantage (10 points<BR>
GURPS CM p 79).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:38:05 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re:  GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
<BR>
On 06/13/00 at 06:16 PM,  Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>"N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
>> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>> > Yes it does state that. I think that statement is wrong and<BR>
>> > contradicts the basic GURPS design philosophy (see below).<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Eris, get a bottle of champagne. Truly it is a great day for Heresy!<BR>
<BR>
>I am not a heretic. <BR>
<BR>
LOL!  I don't even wonder how many Christians went to the stake with<BR>
those very words on their lips.  Good luck convincing those that<BR>
don't agree with you that you are keeping canon. <g><BR>
<BR>
>I believe in following the games written rules. However when  these rules<BR>
>are contradictory (as the GURPS rules are) than  I believe you ought to<BR>
>value the more basic design philosophy  (which in GURPS is "All 100 point<BR>
>characters are equivalent"  and "Advantages must be paid for.") over<BR>
>statements in the  text of one advantage (Allies in GURPS). YMMV<BR>
<BR>
Maybe you guys should take this one to alt.grups.religious.canon?<BR>
Hee, hee!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:51:02 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design<BR>
<BR>
At 6:02 PM -0800 6/13/00, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>>  I think you are missing a point here, Peter. Points are paid for special<BR>
>>  relationships like Ally, yes. But no generic system I've ever seen forces<BR>
>>  the PC to pay for positive relationships with other PCs.<BR>
><BR>
>Than the GURPS rules are written improperly. The GURPS rules<BR>
>clearly states that "The GURPS system is balanced. All 100-<BR>
>point characters start off "equivalent" although not the same."<BR>
>The intent of this statement, if believed, requires that<BR>
>PC's pay for positive relationships with other PC's or<BR>
>they will not be equivilant to Pc's with no positive<BR>
>relationships with other PC's.<BR>
<BR>
It's a myth that all 100 points are equivalent.  It has been<BR>
discussed and demonstrated repeatedly that 100 point characters<BR>
are not equivalent.  Tech level differences are the most common<BR>
way to unbalance "equivalent" characters.  One major problem with<BR>
this is that skills are priced based on perceived difficulty,<BR>
advantages and disadvantages are priced on utility and stats<BR>
are all priced the same.  There are advantages, such as literacy,<BR>
which do not always cost the same.  In primitive campaigns,<BR>
it costs 10 points while in modern campaigns, it costs 0 points.<BR>
If you, as the GM, require advantages, then it's best to give<BR>
them for "free" and give the players the points they are free<BR>
to spend.  Giving them 100 points and then charging them for<BR>
a bunch of stuff they all have is kind of pointless, so to speak.<BR>
<BR>
>There is no such thing as a PC group. People are represented<BR>
>in GURPS terms as characters. Some of these charecters will be<BR>
>played by the GM (non player characters) and some of them will<BR>
>be played by players (player characters). All major aspects of<BR>
>these charecters behavior, assets, and liabilities must be modeled<BR>
>by GURPS system mechanics. Who is plying this charecter is not<BR>
>at issue.<BR>
<BR>
No such thing as a PC group?  Weird... when we play, PCs are all<BR>
easily recognizable by other PCs.  Who is playing the character<BR>
is always important.  The players are the ones who are supposed<BR>
to have fun, so it's important that their characters get to do<BR>
the things that will let their players have fun.  Also, keep in<BR>
mind that GURPS is a game and there are no "musts".  Even<BR>
GURPS says that all rules are flexible.  "Must" is inappropriate<BR>
when discussing GURPS play.<BR>
<BR>
>The GURPS rules state that all 100 point charecters are equivalent.<BR>
>Thus a PC Ally should be no different than an NPC Ally. Other<BR>
>player charecters who help your player charecter are outside<BR>
>assistance.<BR>
<BR>
If you read the first section in the "Allies" section in the<BR>
Basic book, it states that NPC allies cost points, not PCs.  On<BR>
page 24 under "GMing the Ally" the first sentence reads, "An Ally<BR>
is a non-player character, and should be played as such."<BR>
><BR>
>>  If you want to look at it another way, an Ally advantage is a way of having<BR>
>>  help whose availability is based on a mechanical process, a die roll, while<BR>
>>  any relationship with another PC is based on the interaction of the players<BR>
>>  and availability of help is based on how well the player can convice the<BR>
>>  other player to agree to his plan. And I don't think a PC should have to pay<BR>
>>  for that.<BR>
>>  The way you seem to be looking at it, all PCs should be taking Ally<BR>
>>  advantages for the other PCs, after all, they closely cooperate and are<BR>
>>  generally  together in an adventure.<BR>
><BR>
>No. GURPS states "In one sense the other PC's who adventure with<BR>
>you are allies. But they can be unreliable allies indeed. Often<BR>
>they are only chance acquaintances, first encountered at a roadside<BR>
>tavern only hours ago. They have their own hidden goals, ethics,<BR>
>and motives, which may or may not coincide with your own.<BR>
><BR>
>An NPC Ally on the other hand is wholly reliable. Perhaps you<BR>
>fought side-by-side in an extended campaign, trained under the<BR>
>same master, or grew up in the same village. The two of you trust<BR>
>each other implicitly. You travel together, fight back-to-back,<BR>
>share rations in hard times, trade watches throughout the night."<BR>
><BR>
>GURP 3rd Ed Rev p 23.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, you already quoted this for me...<BR>
><BR>
>I treat every word of this as gospel except for the word _NPC_.<BR>
>The word NPC makes a distinction between PC's and NPC's that<BR>
>the rest of the GURPS rules, which clearly state that all 100<BR>
>point charecters, PC or NPC, are equivilant do not.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, if you're going to pick and choose what you interpret stricly,<BR>
then you might as well stop quoting rules.<BR>
<BR>
And, to quote from the holy bible, GURPS Basic Set, 3rd Edition,<BR>
Chapter 21, at the top of page 177:<BR>
<BR>
"The GM is the final authority.  Rules are guidelines . . . the<BR>
designer's opinion about how things out to go.  But (as long as he<BR>
is fair and consistent) the GM can change any number, any cost, any<BR>
rules.  His word is law!<BR>
<BR>
And from page 179, under Running the Game:<BR>
<BR>
Don't lean on formulas of any type.  This definitely includes<BR>
the various formulas in the rules!  Use them when you need them -<BR>
but don't let them become crutches."<BR>
><BR>
>To me any time that two charecters  "trust each other implicitly.<BR>
>You travel together, fight back-to-back, share rations in hard<BR>
>times, trade watches throughout the night." GURP 3rd Ed Rev p 23.<BR>
>They are Allies and must pay points for this relationship. At the<BR>
>start of most campaigns most PC's are not Allies in GURPS<BR>
>terms. If two players decide that their charecters have an<BR>
>especially close relationship that meets the description above<BR>
>they must pay points for it. if this means that half the experience<BR>
>the charecters earn must go towards paying for each other as<BR>
>Allies than I have no problems with that.<BR>
<BR>
Except GURPS 3rd Ed. p. 23 states that Allies are NPCs.<BR>
<BR>
Again, you used "must" which is irrelevant.  There is no "must"<BR>
in GURPS.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:57:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Bohemian Class SDB<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
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<BR>
Pinkerdoo is proud to announce the release of the 1.0 designs for the<BR>
Bohemian class SDB.<BR>
<BR>
"This attack boat was designed with the wealthy systems in mind. For the<BR>
dictator who has everything... Sporting 4 50 dton bays with Fusion and Meson<BR>
weapons, 4 turrets with heavy lasers and 6 triple pulse defensive<BR>
emplacements this craft will strike terror into the hearts of your<BR>
attackers. With armor rated at over 320 inches of hard steel, your crew will<BR>
feel safe and cozy even in the most heated of battles. Nice extras including<BR>
6 gee's of thrust and a Meson screen round out this giant among SDB's. "<BR>
<BR>
Interested parties can view the specs at home.members.net/pinkerdoo. Also<BR>
you may contact our purchasing team to arrange a production license at the<BR>
same site.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Pinkerdoo Design Group<BR>
"Odd designs for Odd jobs"<BR>
<BR>
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<DIV><SPAN =<BR>
class=3D152395302-14062000>Pinkerdoo is proud=20<BR>
to announce the release of the 1.0 designs for the Bohemian class SDB.=20<BR>
</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN=20<BR>
class=3D152395302-14062000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D152395302-14062000>"This =<BR>
attack boat=20<BR>
was designed with the wealthy systems in mind. For the dictator who has=20<BR>
everything... Sporting 4 50 dton bays with Fusion and Meson weapons, 4 =<BR>
turrets=20<BR>
with heavy lasers and 6 triple pulse defensive emplacements this craft =<BR>
will=20<BR>
strike terror into the hearts of your attackers. With armor rated at =<BR>
over 320=20<BR>
inches of hard steel, your crew will feel safe and cozy even in the most =<BR>
heated=20<BR>
of battles. Nice extras including 6 gee's of thrust and a Meson screen =<BR>
round out=20<BR>
this giant among SDB's. "</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN=20<BR>
class=3D152395302-14062000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN =<BR>
class=3D152395302-14062000>Interested parties=20<BR>
can view the specs at home.members.net/pinkerdoo. Also you may contact =<BR>
our=20<BR>
purchasing team to arrange a production license at the same=20<BR>
site.</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN=20<BR>
class=3D152395302-14062000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN=20<BR>
class=3D152395302-14062000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN =<BR>
class=3D152395302-14062000>Pinkerdoo Design=20<BR>
Group</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D152395302-14062000>"Odd =<BR>
designs for Odd=20<BR>
jobs"</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BFD571.A08E6310--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2600<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2601</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 14 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2601<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
Re: keyboard kill<BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
RE: PD and Arty<BR>
Re: GURPS (or any other) Character Design<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2600<BR>
Re: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
RE: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW &SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
Re: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW &SRW -  connect ions?)<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") ><BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design<BR>
Re: Strange Facilites (was Star Ship Quirks)<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW -  connect ions?)<BR>
RE: Random Chargen<BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure <BR>
Re: Men & Women OT: ( was Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core)<BR>
Re: keyboard kill<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:57:30 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
<BR>
"Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote,<BR>
> >Yes it does state that. I think that statement is wrong and<BR>
> contradicts the basic GURPS design philosophy (see below).<BR>
> Suppose that my character takes a NPC 100 point husband appearing<BR>
> on a 15-. She has to pay 15 points for this advantage. By contrast<BR>
> suppose that Bob and Sue decide that their 100 point player<BR>
> characters are married and always together. They effectively<BR>
> have the the same 100 point ally appearing on a 15- for free<BR>
> that my charecter had to pay 15 points for. I think that this<BR>
> is unjust and in violation of the stated GURPS rules <BR>
<BR>
> By this logic, you should charge every player for every other player in the<BR>
> group since their characters will be showing up and (almost certainly) be<BR>
> helping out on a regular basis. That utterly defies any logic in the game.<BR>
<BR>
Already answered in an earlier post.<BR>
<BR>
> Further, you are "assuming facts not in evidence" by asking what if one<BR>
> player leaves the group giving the other a free NPC. Why have you decided<BR>
> one player will be leaving before you even start? Granted I have been in<BR>
> groups that aren't all that stable in terms of members or appearance on game<BR>
> days, but this is a bit extreme.<BR>
<BR>
It happens some of the time. Therefore it is responsible<BR>
GMing to be prepared for it. Moreover if PC Allies are free<BR>
than the Munchkin thing to do is for the Munchkin players<BR>
to collude at being allies. This violates the basic GURPS<BR>
principle that all 100 point characters are equivalent.<BR>
<BR>
> And what about Disadvantage points for having "forced" feelings for another<BR>
> character? Why shouldn't the players now insist that they get each other as<BR>
> DNPCs under your system?<BR>
<BR>
The Dependent Rules clearly state  ( p 38) that "A dependent<BR>
worth over 50 points is not helpless enough to be worth any<BR>
bonus points."<BR>
<BR>
If we were playing with 25 or 50 point charecters than PC's<BR>
might well be able to take each other as dependents.<BR>
If for example two 25 point charecters are brothers<BR>
who take the Dependent (25 point brother) (base value<BR>
- -12 points) (loved one x 2 value) (on a 15- x3 value)<BR>
Than each character will have a 72 point disadvantage<BR>
(the GURPS rules say 40 points in Disadvantages<BR>
_or_ one disadvantage whatever its worth) and will have <BR>
@5 + 72 = 97 points to spend, or 102 points if they take<BR>
5 quirks.<BR>
<BR>
> If players want to establish a role-playing background to their characters<BR>
> like this I would do anything but discourage it by charging them for the<BR>
> "privilege". <BR>
<BR>
Personally I would tend to agree but the stated rules for<BR>
GURPS clearly establish that 100 point charecters are<BR>
equivalent. Thus, in GURPS, you have to pay for everything<BR>
you get. This occasionally produces strange results. A<BR>
GURPS charecter can no more have a close comrade without<BR>
paying points for it than a Champions 4th Ed charecter can<BR>
have a flashlight without paying points for it (probably as<BR>
Light Illusions or Transform with a focus).<BR>
<BR>
> And if you are that worried about one player leaving, just say<BR>
> the two characters get a divorce.<BR>
<BR>
First I don't know that the player won't come back,<BR>
second it is poor GMing to get rid of a potential NPC<BR>
asset that you can use to get PC's into trouble with,<BR>
and third if it is not in charecter for the other<BR>
charecter to get a divorce than it would be poor role playing<BR>
on the GM's part to have him seek one. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:04:15 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: keyboard kill<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
> > You Know You've Been Reading TML Too Long When You Think:<BR>
> >  "Was this before or after he and Kiri broke up?"<BR>
<BR>
> You, sir, owe the University of California-San Francisco Medical Center a<BR>
> keyboard.<BR>
> Kiri (damn, I knew I shoulda stuck it out a couple more -- hundred --<BR>
> years?  You bettah be nice to me, I coulda been Empress!<BR>
<BR>
[in my best Yoda voice]<BR>
"You will be, my young one. Heh. You will be."<BR>
<BR>
In CT TL 9 starts in 2001. Thus if you are severely injured <BR>
next year they will put you in a low berth. When we get to TL <BR>
12 and can be repaired you will be unfrozen. After you are drafted <BR>
by the Terran Confederation and become Hiroshi's aide de camp <BR>
you will fall and love, marry, and become Empress. He should be<BR>
alpha male enough for you. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:53:37 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
<BR>
I'm not quite sure who wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >I believe in following the games written rules. However when <BR>
> >these rules are contradictory (as the GURPS rules are) than  <BR>
> >I believe you ought to value the more basic design philosophy<BR>
<BR>
(snip)<BR>
<BR>
Sometimes I feel like stopping right there and making<BR>
that the basis of my crusades.  Of course, in the end<BR>
it's the referee who must sift through the rules and<BR>
decide what stays, what goes, and what's pushed onto<BR>
the back burner until later consideration.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:24:31 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: PD and Arty<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
>Subject: RE: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
...<BR>
>I agree that under Traveller you can use lasers for the job, because<BR>
>Traveller lasers and power supplies are just far too good to be true, but<BR>
>even there, compare the cost of supplying such lasers compared to the cost<BR>
>of buying a regiment of artillery.<BR>
<BR>
  So those power supplies also aren't available for mass-drivers? So we<BR>
can double the mass per round required - I hope that your ammo factory<BR>
is local, otherwise you've got an <ahem> astronomical logistics issue.<BR>
Your ammo factory is, if on-planet, an undefended physical target.<BR>
<BR>
  As it happens, higher TL Traveller lasers and power supplies _are_<BR>
the issue here, so denying them takes this to another list - SF-CONSIM-L?<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>Another point, unless the defender can afford so much PD that they can cover<BR>
>their _entire_ infrastructure with it ( in which case, you'd be bloody silly<BR>
>to try and attack them!), then artillery will still be useful for hitting<BR>
>undefended physical targets, denying transport capability, and general<BR>
>infrastucture attacks.<BR>
<BR>
  Umm, general infrastucture attacks might violate 3I Rules of War. And<BR>
bridges and causeways aren't going to be vital terrain anymore. In any <BR>
case, AFV's (heck, high TL combat units) aren't undefended physical<BR>
targets, and denying transport capability to air/rafts & grav trucks<BR>
means destroying them with PGM's - neat trick, especially as they can<BR>
(and should) be easily escorted.<BR>
<BR>
>Firstly, your spec forcs get in position to eliminate the PD batteries by<BR>
>massed direct fire of man-portable howitzers from extreme close range, say a<BR>
>hundred or so feet, or even just by placing satchel charges on the power<BR>
supplies.<BR>
<BR>
  "To defeat the enemy with artillery, first defeat them by blowing up their<BR>
vehicles with battle-suited ninjas - oh-kay..." Can we assume that either<BR>
side can do this? Are ammo haulers for those vast arty flotillas more<BR>
kaboomy than an enemy grav tank?<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:36:27 -0500<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS (or any other) Character Design<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >I believe in following the games written rules. However when  these rules<BR>
> >are contradictory (as the GURPS rules are) than  I believe you ought to<BR>
> >value the more basic design philosophy  (which in GURPS is "All 100 point<BR>
> >characters are equivalent"  and "Advantages must be paid for.") over<BR>
> >statements in the  text of one advantage (Allies in GURPS). YMMV<BR>
><BR>
> Maybe you guys should take this one to alt.grups.religious.canon?<BR>
> Hee, hee!<BR>
<BR>
    And deprive us of one of the most exciting discussion topics since "Drop<BR>
Tanks"?<BR>
<BR>
    You know, I can comprehend =why= Mr. Newman feels as he does; there is a<BR>
certain sort of logic to the concept that PCs who have some sort of strong<BR>
relationship which existed prior to the start of the game...be it marriage,<BR>
childhood friendship, whatever...have something more than just your ordinary<BR>
"adventuring group" mentality.  Given the choice between sacrificing your<BR>
blood brother and someone you go out and have a good time and make money with,<BR>
which would *you* choose?  Who would you help first in an emergency, the wife<BR>
you love dearly, or your drinking buddy?  If there are to be conflicts among<BR>
the PCs, then such relationships will certainly have a bearing upon the<BR>
resolution of those conflicts, and a character with such a relationship will<BR>
be "stronger" than one without.  In that area is where I see the logic behind<BR>
the interpretation.<BR>
<BR>
    I do not subscribe to that interpretation, however, because I do not feel<BR>
it is conducive to the sort of game atmosphere I would wish to have.  Nor do I<BR>
feel that it adds in any useful way to anyone's enjoyment, my own included.<BR>
In fact, I feel that the opposite is the case: it has been my experience that<BR>
in "piece built" gaming groups, where the players do not have long experience<BR>
as friends outside the group, that such bonds are actually beneficial to the<BR>
overall group enjoyment by providing more reasons for the PCs to work<BR>
together...an absolute necessity in any game I run.  They provide more<BR>
potential plot hooks and crisis points, more inspiration for me, and so far as<BR>
I can tell more entertainment for the players.  I prefer to encourage the<BR>
players to do things that provide us all with entertainment without radically<BR>
disrupting the game, and if that means allowing them a "free" PC ally to make<BR>
things more interesting and provide a reason why their character hangs around<BR>
with that inept bum^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H lifelong buddy in the first place, then<BR>
I'm all for it and bugger the damned rules, flawed or not.<BR>
<BR>
    And that's the key difference for me.  I love wargames, but wargames are<BR>
about winning and losing, and they need solid, well-built rules to define the<BR>
means by which one goes about attempting to win.  The only "winning" that<BR>
occurs in a role-playing game is when everyone enjoys the experience.  All the<BR>
puzzle-solving and monster-slaying is worthless, if those doing it aren't<BR>
enjoying it.  I may on rare occasions play a wargame with a role-playing<BR>
attitude, but I'd never role-play with a wargaming mindset; it'd be no fun for<BR>
me.<BR>
<BR>
    Peter, please play it however entertains you and whomsoever games with<BR>
you; that's your privilege and I support it wholeheartedly.  I believe I<BR>
understand your viewpoint, but I will not abide by it either as a player or<BR>
GM, because it doesn't sound like any fun to me.  Such is my first...and<BR>
LAST...comment on the subject.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:43:39 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2600<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 13-06-00 8:59:58 PM CST, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>  Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:34:14 -0500<BR>
>  From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
>  Subject: Question for Loren  RE: GURPS Charecter Design <BR>
>  <BR>
>  At 08:23 PM 6/13/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>  > >Yes it does state that. I think that statement is wrong and<BR>
>  > >contradicts the basic GURPS design philosophy (see below).<BR>
>  <BR>
>  <gobs and gobs of snipage><BR>
>  <BR>
>  AIR (As I Recall) There is already a Dr. Kromm ruling that PCs can't be <BR>
>  bought as Allies by other PCs.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Loren, could you find out if there is a archive of Sean Punch's rulings <BR>
>  somewhere on the internet?<BR>
<BR>
Only way I know of is to ask him. Prepare a summary of the problem (I haven't <BR>
been following the thread) and send it to me.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:59:40 -0500<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Re: crack squad of Zen Buddhists?<BR>
<BR>
> > The question that sprang to mind was: What sort of uniform would a crack<BR>
> >  squad of zen buddhists wear?<BR>
><BR>
> Saffron camouflage?<BR>
<BR>
Battledress, depending on TL and mission. Zen buddihists tend to be<BR>
pragmatists.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:08:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Minor kitchen safety note:  nudity and saut=E9ing do not mix. =20<BR>
><BR>
> Nudity and frying bacon. *ouch*<BR>
<BR>
Been there, done that. Thankfully I *don't* have the scars to prove it!<BR>
A couple inches to one side, though.... <shudder><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:14:07 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
On 06/13/00 at 09:08 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>> Minor kitchen safety note:  nudity and saut=E9ing do not mix. =20<BR>
>><BR>
>> Nudity and frying bacon. *ouch*<BR>
<BR>
>Been there, done that. Thankfully I *don't* have the scars to prove it! A<BR>
>couple inches to one side, though.... <shudder><BR>
<BR>
"Bacon frying in the nude....an entry  for the Darwin Awards! News at 10." <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:43:18 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
>> Nudity and frying bacon. *ouch*<BR>
><BR>
>Been there, done that. Thankfully I *don't* have the scars to prove it!<BR>
>A couple inches to one side, though.... <shudder><BR>
<BR>
I used to work in a craft jewelry studio, and one of my co-workers was a<BR>
nudist. While she would come to work clothed, she would work in her own<BR>
studio with only an apron, which would leave her legs completely bare. She<BR>
would have all kinds of minor burns, as dropping hot metal is actually quite<BR>
common in the trade. However, one day she had been making jewelry in the<BR>
form of leaves and she dropped one of them on her upper thigh. She had a<BR>
huge leaf-scar which looked like it had been a very painful burn.<BR>
<BR>
There's a lesson in there somewhere having something to do with really,<BR>
really hot metal and nekkidness. Actually, I think that the subject of<BR>
frying in the nude came up before, ages ago.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Various forms of body modification are explored in the real world,<BR>
especially in the last decade (maybe two now) as a result of the various<BR>
facets of what can loosely be called the "neo-tribalism" movement.<BR>
Body-piercing, tattoing and scarification are the common forms today. What<BR>
new technologies might appear in body modification? I know that there's a<BR>
company out there right now working on fiber optic tattoos. I know that in<BR>
Sterling's "The Artificial Kid" the main character had hair that was treated<BR>
in such a way that it was stiff and would rise when he got excited. A very<BR>
cool visual, and it seems plausible at Traveller TLs. My imagination is<BR>
limited at the moment, and I can't think of anything else. Anybody have any<BR>
ideas?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:43:20 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW &SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Because the *last* 3000 years are pretty damn different from *themselves*?<BR>
<BR>
Nah, come on. If you listen to some people on the list things are the same<BR>
everywhere at all times! :)<BR>
<BR>
>3000 years ago is (roughly) 1000 BC. Rome wouldn't be founded for more<BR>
>than 350 years. If I recall correctly, this poet named Homer was either<BR>
>just about to put together the Iliad and the Odyssey, or it hadn't been<BR>
>*that* long since he had. Egypt was "merely" 2000 years old.<BR>
<BR>
The date usually given for "The Iliad" is roughly 750 BC, or 750 BCE if you<BR>
go by the other calendar. "The Iliad" probably predates that. Homer's epic,<BR>
like many other very old texts, is filled with artifacts from a primarily<BR>
oral culture. Given the approximate date of what is believed to be the<BR>
historical Trojan war, about 1250 BC(E) or so, "The Iliad", whole or in<BR>
part, may have been around for about a quarter of a millenium by 1000 BC(E).<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Anyone interested in seeing a page or so of a Vilani epic poem with<BR>
all of the cool artifacts that give it the proper flavor? You might<BR>
relatively soon. It'll be an English translation as I'm not too hip to<BR>
writing in Vilani.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:57:14 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW &SRW -  connect ions?)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> This kind of reaction is one of the reasons I'm rather pessimistic about<BR>
> >> great and vast changes in the way people relate happening even over the<BR>
> >> next 3000 years.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Why should the next 3000 years be any different from the last<BR>
> > 3000?<BR>
><BR>
> Because the *last* 3000 years are pretty damn different from *themselves*?<BR>
<BR>
My point is only that the domesticated primate called human<BR>
has a behaviour/psyche/personality/whatever that is just as<BR>
complex and difficul to understand then as it is now, and is<BR>
likely to remain more so in the future.  That is the lesson I take<BR>
from reading Homer,  Sophocles, Euripedes and Aeschylus,<BR>
to name a few.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 01:00:30 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") ><BR>
<BR>
Just an unsolicited statement:<BR>
<BR>
Peter, I think you'd find a happy home in the field<BR>
of law, particularly statutory construction and<BR>
deconstruction.<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 01:03:05 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design<BR>
<BR>
Let's just face facts.<BR>
<BR>
Point-based chargen sucks.<BR>
<BR>
No one expects the Dice Rolling Inquisition!<BR>
Chief among are weapons are Fear of a "1",<BR>
Surprise, and the Do-Over!<BR>
<BR>
:-P<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:36:03 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Strange Facilites (was Star Ship Quirks)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Another time the folks scheduling training put the wrong folks in the same<BR>
> class.  Seemed they must have figured that as the students were learning at<BR>
> least in part how to knock down each others aircraft it they would have<BR>
> something in common.  Not a good idea.  Wasn't as bad as putting Pakastani<BR>
> and Indians in the same classroom, but almost so as if I remember correctly<BR>
> they  were Greeks and Turks.<BR>
<BR>
Ai-yi-yi! You might as well try training "Jewish militia" and "Black<BR>
September" folks at the same place...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:41:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote :<BR>
>> Eris wrote:<BR>
>> > Once complied into native machine code java programs are<BR>
>> > reputedly as fast a C based programs.<BR>
><BR>
> Just to really stir , it has been conclusively shown that for certain types<BR>
> of program, interpreted languages are inherently faster than compiled<BR>
> languages.<BR>
<BR>
Got a reference for that?<BR>
<BR>
> This was one of the reasons for the creation of the UCSD P system back in<BR>
> the early 80's<BR>
<BR>
Well, they actually had a processor that used P-code as it's "machine<BR>
language"! That makes a difference too.<BR>
<BR>
> As the services of such a programmer for a day are around $1500 or more,<BR>
> it's ususally cheaper to throw more hardware at the problem if you need<BR>
> speed.<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry for the rant, but it's a pet subject of mine.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, "code bloat" is *way* out of hand. Programmers at<BR>
too many companies are failing to strip unused code and other<BR>
"resources" from programs. Resulting in programs that are actually<BR>
*hundreds* of times bigger than they need to be. Especially in the<BR>
"Visual XXXX" type languages.<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav:<BR>
><BR>
> Let your characters have some shit-hot programmer write them a better<BR>
> "Evasion" or "Anti-Hijack" routine. Charge them ten times (or more)<BR>
> the price of the normal routine because it's custom software and<BR>
> shit-hot programmers cost lots of money.<BR>
><BR>
> Then next time they repair, upgrade, or replace the computer, tell<BR>
> them their special software module works slower than the standard<BR>
> model because it relied on hardware efficiencies specific to the<BR>
> original model of computer.<BR>
><BR>
> Let them try and get any remedy against the programmer, and he'll say<BR>
> "There was no portability requirement when you commisioned the<BR>
> software".<BR>
<BR>
Yep. The specs are always the most important part of the job. I once<BR>
got the "committee" that I was part of to agree that I could write some<BR>
code a certain way. I failed to get that agreement in *writing*, so<BR>
I wound up having to rewrite because two weeks later they "couldn't<BR>
remember" having agreed that it was ok to do it that way...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:51:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW & SRW -  connect ions?)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 15:52 -0400 13/6/00, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:<BR>
>>Can we get an [Oprah] header or something like<BR>
>>that to signal touchy-feely women-men stuff, please?<BR>
>>Accidentally tripped into this thread and now I<BR>
>>feel dirty.<BR>
>>Mommy!  Mommy!<BR>
>>bloo<BR>
>>[snip . . . um . .  stuff]<BR>
><BR>
> Do you know just how much Apple Extended Keyboards cost in the UK?<BR>
<BR>
No, but they run about $20 here... :-) <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 01:14:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Random Chargen<BR>
<BR>
>Let's just face facts.<BR>
><BR>
>Point-based chargen sucks.<BR>
><BR>
>No one expects the Dice Rolling Inquisition!<BR>
>Chief among are weapons are Fear of a "1",<BR>
>Surprise, and the Do-Over!<BR>
<BR>
Nah, if a system produces player characters which are reasonably balanced,<BR>
it's all good. :)<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I'm waiting for a system that offers both dice-based, point<BR>
based and a combo platter. Some players groove on random characters. Some<BR>
players groove on point built characters and I personally groove on both.<BR>
<BR>
Then again, since I GM most of the time and I understand the GM's pain, I'm<BR>
always a utility player willing to take the role that the GM feels is needed<BR>
to round out the campaign.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 01:41:28 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote,<BR>
>First I don't know that the player won't come back,<BR>
second it is poor GMing to get rid of a potential NPC<BR>
asset that you can use to get PC's into trouble with,<BR>
and third if it is not in charecter for the other<BR>
charecter to get a divorce than it would be poor role playing<BR>
on the GM's part to have him seek one. YMMV.<<BR>
<BR>
Aside from everything else, I think this is the main point.<BR>
You want the players getting into trouble with this. That isn't an<BR>
advantage, that is a disadvantage That is like saying Robin pays for Batman<BR>
because Batman always needs to be saved. An Ally should be helping you out,<BR>
not being a drag on you.<BR>
Indeed, YMMV, but I would never charge anyone in a group for another player<BR>
no matter what. As has been said, players are players and for whatever<BR>
reason always stick up for each other. If anything I'd give them a bonus for<BR>
saving me time in coming up with one of the typically contrived reasons for<BR>
them being together in a  group.<BR>
<BR>
Sa,<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:40:35 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure <BR>
<BR>
Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
<BR>
> Additionally, in a M-F-M situation, it would seem reasonable for one or <BR>
> both of the males to seek additional partners, depending on how much <BR>
> attention each individual happens to need ("she's got two lovers, why <BR>
> do each of us get only one?"). <BR>
<BR>
There is a rather obvious solution to this question<BR>
<BR>
M1[1] + F + M2 can yield M1 + F, F + M2 and M1 + M2<BR>
and even M1 + F + M2.<BR>
<BR>
[1] No not M1 the money supply<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:53:12 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Men & Women OT: ( was Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core)<BR>
<BR>
Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
<BR>
> Aren't our contemporary and historical examples of royalty generally <BR>
> expected and pressured to marry? How many US Presidents have been <BR>
> unmarried?<BR>
<BR>
In many cases marriage is still seen as a demonstration<BR>
of heterosexuality. [1] Hence much pressure to marry can be<BR>
seen as a pressure to evince hetero-normative behavior.<BR>
<BR>
> A huge portion of our society expects people of status to get married. <BR>
> It is definitely more respectable for men to remain unmarried:<BR>
<BR>
I disagree with that assessment. It is not more respectable<BR>
to remain unmarried, this is why "confirmed bachelor" is<BR>
a euphemism for "flaming homosexual" [2]<BR>
<BR>
>  "The connotations in these loaded words:<BR>
>   A spinster and a bachelor"                    [1]<BR>
> <BR>
> ...but we do expect our high-ranking males to marry, perhaps <BR>
> even more than our high-ranking females. The nature of our <BR>
> President's wife has always been significant, but no one cares <BR>
> about Janet Reno's or Madeline Albright's (sp?) husbands.<BR>
<BR>
Start Caveman think:<BR>
<BR>
Chief must show he is strong. Get good woman, prove you<BR>
strong. Not get good woman, prove you weak, not be good<BR>
leader, me club you and be leader. Ugh!<BR>
<BR>
End Caveman think<BR>
<BR>
Whereas (in caveman think) a female who is married and has<BR>
children will be assumed by people (possibly especially<BR>
women), who place their children before their jobs to be<BR>
likely to do the same. It is reasonable for someone to<BR>
want a leader who will place the job of leading above the<BR>
job of parenting.<BR>
<BR>
Hence female leaders may be often be, er, "confirmed<BR>
spinsters" like Ms Reno. [2]<BR>
<BR>
[1] Such assumption is, of course, incorrect.<BR>
<BR>
[2] Not that there's anything wrong with that....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:42:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: keyboard kill<BR>
<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
>In CT TL 9 starts in 2001. Thus if you are severely injured<BR>
>next year they will put you in a low berth. When we get to TL<BR>
>12 and can be repaired you will be unfrozen. After you are drafted<BR>
>by the Terran Confederation and become Hiroshi's aide de camp<BR>
>you will fall and love, marry, and become Empress. He should be<BR>
>alpha male enough for you. :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    That, or he will leave a trail of clothing from door to easy chair,<BR>
beer, & TV.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2601<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 14 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2602<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Question for Loren  RE: GURPS Charecter Design <BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2598<BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
Re: Bohemian Class SDB<BR>
RE: Lucan: A Different Viewpoint<BR>
Re: keyboard kill<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
RE: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
Peter Newman (was: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
Re: PD and Arty (was re:ground combat)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:02:29 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Question for Loren  RE: GURPS Charecter Design <BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> AIR (As I Recall) There is already a Dr. Kromm ruling that PCs can't be <BR>
> bought as Allies by other PCs.<BR>
<BR>
> Loren, could you find out if there is a archive of Sean Punch's rulings <BR>
> somewhere on the internet?<BR>
<BR>
There are two such archives<BR>
<BR>
'The Words of Kromm' is at:<BR>
http://www.concentric.net/~dellorto/kromm/kromm.html<BR>
and "The Word of Kromm II" is at:<BR>
http://www.concentric.net/~dellorto/kromm/kromm2.html<BR>
<BR>
These archives are unofficial and do not appear to contain<BR>
any 'PC's can't be bought as Allies' rule.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:13:44 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2598<BR>
<BR>
> Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
> > >Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote :<BR>
> > > Eris wrote:<BR>
> > > > Once complied into native machine code java programs are<BR>
> > > > reputedly as fast a C based programs.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Just to really stir , it has been conclusively shown that for<BR>
> > certain types of program, interpreted languages are inherently<BR>
> > faster than compiled languages.<BR>
><BR>
> Do you have a citation for this claim?<BR>
<BR>
> It seems to me that any interpretation<BR>
> can be no better timewise than a compile plus an execution, and given my<BR>
> definitions for these words, what you just said seems nonsensical.<BR>
<BR>
I was referring to straight interpretation, not JIT compiles, so the<BR>
comparison is between<BR>
"execute" and "execute", no compiles involved. (An interpreter does not<BR>
normally compile it's program on the fly, it just executes the intermediate<BR>
code in the same way the processor executes compiled code, an interpreter is<BR>
basically just a high level CPU )<BR>
<BR>
The reason is that a piece of complex code can be represented by a small<BR>
number of intermediate code symbols for the interpreter, which can then be<BR>
read, understood, and acted on by the interpreter faster than the equivalent<BR>
compiled code can be read and acted on by the underlying processor.<BR>
<BR>
I know it may sound unlikely, but from memory the mathematics are similar to<BR>
the reasons why things like trellis encoding can get more than one "bit" of<BR>
data into a single physical bit on the line which also sounds unlikely when<BR>
you first hear it.<BR>
<BR>
I'll see if I can dig up a cite.<BR>
<BR>
> Note that Eris's quote was regarding compiled Java.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I was just pointing out that even without compiling, Java can still be<BR>
faster than compiled languages.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:23:08 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
<BR>
"Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Also - say two charactors get hitched during a campain - are they going to<BR>
> have to pay char points for the new found ally?<BR>
<BR>
I'd make them pay as soon as they became close friends/<BR>
lovers/engaged/whatever. It might be appropriate to allow<BR>
the cost of this Ally to be partially paid by the resultant<BR>
Sense of Duty although the normal GURPS rules is to give<BR>
no point value to Disadvantages acquired in play.<BR>
<BR>
> I would have to put my hat into the ring of the externals cost, internals do<BR>
> not camp - I can see why a literial reading of the rules might be construed<BR>
> to mean the other way, however, comma, I cannot see how adding that<BR>
> complexity would add value to the system at all <BR>
<BR>
Suppose your players play once a week, fifty weeks a year<BR>
and that their characters earn an average of 2 points during<BR>
each of these sessions. This means that in one year (real <BR>
time and possibly much less in game time) the PC's charecters<BR>
will have earned 100 points. If it took them the last 15 to 50+<BR>
years to get the first hundred points why should they get the<BR>
next hundred points in one year? Does this make sense? If on<BR>
the other hand the charecters end up having to spend most of<BR>
their points on Allies this implausibly hasty growth rate can<BR>
be slowed (although this probably does not matter in a cinematic<BR>
game).<BR>
<BR>
> - in fact I could see how it<BR>
> might detract from it - say a PC joins the party - every now has a new ally,<BR>
> and has to pay points for them out of the hard earned experince that they<BR>
> have been saving for one more point of health..<BR>
<BR>
Now the bad guys have one more target to shoot at. This makes<BR>
it less likely that any given PC will be shot, hence they are<BR>
less likely to need the extra point of health. If anyone wants to<BR>
ensure that his character never has pay points for other<BR>
PC Allies they can simply make their charecter Paranoid. Since a<BR>
Paranoid [1] will never trust the other charecters enough to rely<BR>
on them they are not allies to him.<BR>
<BR>
They only have to pay once they actually can count on the<BR>
other person helping them. If the new player is Selfish<BR>
or Self Centered he will probably never be willing to help<BR>
them and they won't have to pay points for him as an ally.<BR>
The Solipsist player may have to pay points for the other players<BR>
(as Allies) once he has duped them into believing he actually<BR>
cares.<BR>
<BR>
[1] Paranoia is significantly undervalued in GURPS point<BR>
terms. For -10 points the charecter "Believes that everyone<BR>
is plotting against you." "other charecters react to paranoids<BR>
at -2. In GURPS terms this should be Odious Personal Habit:<BR>
Acts Paranoid, -2 reaction ( -10 points) and Major Delusion:<BR>
everyone is out to get me (-10 points) and should be<BR>
worth -20 points. OTOH Major Delusions also include a -2 reaction<BR>
modifier which makes no sense. If a -2 Reaction from an<BR>
odious personal Habit is worth -10 points all by itself than<BR>
so should a -2 reaction from a Delusion. Hence the Delusion<BR>
which also includes a Compulsive Behavior (act deluded) should<BR>
be worth more points.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:30:56 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Bohemian Class SDB<BR>
<BR>
Tsykoduk wrote:<BR>
> Interested parties can view the specs at home.members.net/pinkerdoo.<BR>
<BR>
This URL is broken.<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:38:07 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Lucan: A Different Viewpoint<BR>
<BR>
Dan Lane wrote :<BR>
> I dislike fantasy in the guise of Science Fiction and have always<BR>
> felt that realistic personalities add an air of realism to the game as a<BR>
whole.<BR>
<BR>
How about science fiction in the guise of fantasy ?<BR>
<BR>
Just finished reading Sean McMullen's "Souls in the Great Machine"<BR>
(TOR Books; ISBN 0-312-87055-9 )<BR>
<BR>
Steam punk set in a future Australia without electricity.<BR>
<BR>
Go read it now. Some wonderful ideas. And some great characters.<BR>
The book covers many years, so they have lots of room to grow.<BR>
An absolute must for librarians & computer programmers!<BR>
<BR>
What, me biased ? Just because I helped him do some research on New Zealand<BR>
for the next book in the same universe ? And he's helping me on a project as<BR>
well ? Nah...<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:50:06 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: keyboard kill<BR>
<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
>>> You Know You've Been Reading TML Too Long When You Think:<BR>
>>>  "Was this before or after he and Kiri broke up?"<BR>
><BR>
>> You, sir, owe the University of California-San Francisco Medical Center a<BR>
keyboard.<BR>
>> Kiri (damn, I knew I shoulda stuck it out a couple more -- hundred --<BR>
years?  You bettah be nice to me, I coulda been Empress!<BR>
><BR>
>[in my best Yoda voice]<BR>
>"You will be, my young one. Heh. You will be."<BR>
><BR>
>In CT TL 9 starts in 2001. Thus if you are severely injured next year they<BR>
will put you in a low berth. When we get to TL 12 and can be repaired you<BR>
will be unfrozen. After you are drafted by the Terran Confederation and<BR>
become Hiroshi's aide de camp you will fall and love, marry, and become<BR>
Empress. He should be alpha male enough for you. :)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Overheard in the shadows:<BR>
<BR>
"If you want to get rid of Estigarribia, you're going to have to get rid of<BR>
his antique frill.  That woman is mad, but she always seems to know what<BR>
we're up to, dammit!"<BR>
<BR>
"I think she's a witch.  She's always invoking the power of some being named<BR>
Kannon.  Isn't that some ancient Japanese mythological figure?"<BR>
<BR>
"I don't know, but we're never going to get anywhere if we don't get our<BR>
hands on her sacred Black Books."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:58:25 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote :<BR>
> Body-piercing, tattoing and scarification are the common forms today. What<BR>
> new technologies might appear in body modification? I know that there's a<BR>
> company out there right now working on fiber optic tattoos. I know that in<BR>
> Sterling's "The Artificial Kid" the main character had hair that<BR>
> was treated<BR>
> in such a way that it was stiff and would rise when he got excited. A very<BR>
> cool visual, and it seems plausible at Traveller TLs. My imagination is<BR>
> limited at the moment, and I can't think of anything else.<BR>
> Anybody have any<BR>
> ideas?<BR>
<BR>
Well, there is a short story by Sean McMullen which talks about a disease<BR>
that causes chromatic differences in the colouration of the skin based on<BR>
current emotional state.<BR>
<BR>
The story is largely about how this is a curse to some people because it<BR>
results in a form of telepathy (visual bandwidth being far higher than<BR>
sonic), and the effect this has on society.<BR>
but the idea is based on existing biological research, so it's a feasible<BR>
body mod.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, even back in the old Flandry novels there was full facial<BR>
cosmetic surgery and fullbody fur implantations that were undertaken just<BR>
for special occcasions.<BR>
<BR>
And Greg Bear has his orca based heroine in "Queen of Angels".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:19:01 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Just to really stir , it has been conclusively shown that for<BR>
> > certain types of program, interpreted languages are inherently<BR>
> > faster than compiled languages.<BR>
><BR>
> Got a reference for that?<BR>
<BR>
If I can find one I'll post it. See my other reply for more details.<BR>
<BR>
> > This was one of the reasons for the creation of the UCSD P<BR>
> system back in<BR>
> > the early 80's<BR>
><BR>
> Well, they actually had a processor that used P-code as it's "machine<BR>
> language"! That makes a difference too.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but that was not the reason for the improvement. After all an<BR>
interpreter _is_ just a CPU, only written in machine code rather than<BR>
micro-code or hardware with (usually) more complex instructions.<BR>
<BR>
> > As the services of such a programmer for a day are around $1500 or more,<BR>
> > it's ususally cheaper to throw more hardware at the problem if you need<BR>
> > speed.<BR>
><BR>
> > Sorry for the rant, but it's a pet subject of mine.<BR>
><BR>
> On the other hand, "code bloat" is *way* out of hand. Programmers at<BR>
> too many companies are failing to strip unused code and other<BR>
> "resources" from programs. Resulting in programs that are actually<BR>
> *hundreds* of times bigger than they need to be. Especially in the<BR>
> "Visual XXXX" type languages.<BR>
<BR>
Have to agree with that though. It's one of the reasons I don't use IDE's<BR>
more advanced than Borland's old text-based one, and write my own make<BR>
files.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, if you like memory efficient code, go visit Steve Gibson's site<BR>
(www.grc.com)<BR>
There are other good reasons to go there as well, such as OptOut which<BR>
remove's spyware from your system and his mainstay,the wonderful SpinRite.<BR>
<BR>
Another good place for this sort of stuff is AnalogX's site<BR>
(www.analogx.com). Great, small, software for free. He also has a simple<BR>
solution for all those email script viruses that means you don't have to<BR>
actually disable them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > ObTrav:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Let your characters have some shit-hot programmer write them a better<BR>
> > "Evasion" or "Anti-Hijack" routine. Charge them ten times (or more)<BR>
> > the price of the normal routine because it's custom software and<BR>
> > shit-hot programmers cost lots of money.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Then next time they repair, upgrade, or replace the computer, tell<BR>
> > them their special software module works slower than the standard<BR>
> > model because it relied on hardware efficiencies specific to the<BR>
> > original model of computer.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Let them try and get any remedy against the programmer, and he'll say<BR>
> > "There was no portability requirement when you commisioned the<BR>
> > software".<BR>
><BR>
> Yep. The specs are always the most important part of the job. I once<BR>
> got the "committee" that I was part of to agree that I could write some<BR>
> code a certain way. I failed to get that agreement in *writing*, so<BR>
> I wound up having to rewrite because two weeks later they "couldn't<BR>
> remember" having agreed that it was ok to do it that way...<BR>
<BR>
That's why I always make sure there are minutes to any meetings, and that<BR>
they contain those sorts of details, and that everyone is sent a copy. At<BR>
the very least I send people an email confirming the agreement immediately<BR>
after the conversation.<BR>
<BR>
Been several occasions where I have waved a copy of a meetings minutes or an<BR>
email under someone's nose when they tried to go back on something.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:40:08 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
<BR>
"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Fair enough. I personally think that you're missing the very point of the<BR>
> point system. As a result the balance of your games, assuming you run them,<BR>
> will be in serious jeopardy. <BR>
<BR>
Anyone who gets help has to pay points for it. This is<BR>
arguably unbalanced (just as the Champions rule that if<BR>
your super hero starts carrying a flashlight on his belt <BR>
you have to pay points for it is unbalanced IMHO) but to<BR>
me (and apparently not to the rest of you) the letter of<BR>
the GURPS rules. Naturally a Gm is free to change any such<BR>
rules but (IMHO) he owes his players the courtesy of telling<BR>
them ahead of time.<BR>
<BR>
> What you've done is taken a sentence from a<BR>
> paragraph which was intended to provide an explanation for why player<BR>
> characters are not randomly generated in GURPS and have turned it into much<BR>
> more than it was intended.<BR>
<BR>
That's not how I read it. Page 11 is titled "Individualizing<BR>
your Character" and it goes on to discuss character creation.<BR>
It does not say that these general introductory rules apply<BR>
only to player character creation, nor does the word _your_<BR>
in the heading establish, in my mind, that it is discussing<BR>
only player characters. To me an NPC is a character of the GM's<BR>
and hence the word your refers to his characters. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
> Players have the freedom to do with their characters<BR>
> what they will, unless they are bound by certain disadvantages.<BR>
<BR>
It doesn't stop them from doing it it simply makes them pay <BR>
points for doing so in the same way that they must pay points for<BR>
other new or increased stats, skills, and advantages. Nothing<BR>
stops characters from bettering themselves but GURPS system<BR>
mechanics make them pay points (or spend time) to do so.  <BR>
<BR>
If characters in a game you were GMing got better paying jobs<BR>
would you make them pay points for increased wealth? If they<BR>
bench pressed weights to increase their strength would you make<BR>
them pay points for it? I assume that you would. I simply<BR>
apply this same logic to strong friendships gained in play.<BR>
<BR>
> That's the<BR>
> whole point of roleplaying. If Bob and Sue decide that they're going to play<BR>
> a married couple who always have each others' backs, that's their choice.<BR>
> They are both taking on the responsibility of playing this sort of<BR>
> character.<BR>
<BR>
> The problem with your take on the ally advantage is that it micromanages<BR>
> what the players can and can't do to an absurd degree. <BR>
<BR>
Making characters pay point for advantages they get may be<BR>
micro management but it is the game philosophy of the stated <BR>
rules set, GURPS, (by my reading of it) for other Advantages<BR>
gained in play. I simply choose to be more consistent about applying <BR>
this cost than the GURPS rules do.<BR>
<BR>
Another option for gaining PC allies would be to use the "Improvement <BR>
through Study Rule" (p 82) which states that 200 hours of study <BR>
in a skill are worth 1 character point. If you extend this rule<BR>
from skills to advantages then to gain a 15 point Ally for<BR>
'free' you might have to spend 3,000 hours wooing her to earn <BR>
the 15 points.<BR>
<BR>
> For example, the<BR>
> coarse Ally advantage is clearly intended to supply an NPC sidekick for a<BR>
> player character. There is no doubt that this is the intent; the text<BR>
> explains it and the mechanics involved support it.<BR>
<BR>
Yes that is the clear intent of the text of the Ally advantage.<BR>
I merely think said text conflicts with other text which I<BR>
consider more basic. You, obviously, do not.<BR>
<BR>
> To demand that player characters pay character points in order to merely<BR>
> adventure together (and keep in mind that's precisely what you're doing) has<BR>
> all sorts of immediately visible problems. For example, all player<BR>
> characters in an adventuring group, under your logic, would have to pay to<BR>
> adventure with each other. After all, in the vast majority of sessions and<BR>
> campaigns the player characters act cooperatively toward a common goal.<BR>
<BR>
Only in campaigns where the characters actually trust one<BR>
another. If the characters live in a Cyberpunkish unhappy pain <BR>
and deceit filled world full of constant scheming and betrayal<BR>
then they will never have to pay one pint for the other PC's as <BR>
Allies. Since I happen to believe that this is a more accurate<BR>
(albeit more depressing) model of the real world than a world in <BR>
which certain people have a magic sign, visible only to the<BR>
other PC's, on their foreheads which says "Trust me I am a PC."<BR>
<BR>
The PC's I play are not more apt to trust other PC's. The<BR>
PC's I play do not know who is a PC and who is an NPC.<BR>
Hence there is no in character reason for them to treat PC's<BR>
differently than NPC's. I consider this to be merely good<BR>
role playing. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
> Okay. I do have some things I want to ask you. Actually, I've been dying to<BR>
> ask since your MegaTraveller discussion. I thought that it would be a really<BR>
> gauche question at the time. I still think that it is sort of tasteless, but<BR>
> my curiosity has gotten the better of me. Do you actually run games? If you<BR>
> do, do people actually play for more than a few sessions?<BR>
<BR>
I prefer to be a player not a referee.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sufficiently interested in storytelling to spend the<BR>
required time at it. I have sometimes had what I thought to be<BR>
good story ideas but I am generally not interested in spending<BR>
the time necessary to be a GM. When I've started to develop<BR>
story ideas I've found myself to be too lazy to complete<BR>
them. For example I've the basic idea of what I think would make<BR>
a good 3 or 4 person GURPS Traveller/Warehouse 23 crossover<BR>
idea for years now but have not bothered to finish building the <BR>
Jump 4 Scout Courier variant the Pc's will need for the job.<BR>
<BR>
I have run games in the past but I have never run a campaign. [1]<BR>
Some of the people I have refereed before have suggested that<BR>
my storytelling mode is occasionally somewhat confrontational<BR>
and/or paranoid. [2] They have not suggested that I play too<BR>
tight with the rules because we have generally had an understanding<BR>
that the GM's word goes.<BR>
<BR>
> One of the central points of your argument has been what seems to be the<BR>
> foregone conclusion that one player or the other may leave after a few<BR>
> sessions, which would push the player character into non-player character<BR>
> status. Indeed, you've mentioned this twice now in this thread to justify<BR>
> your bizarre interpretation of the ally advantage.<BR>
<BR>
It is by no means a foregone conclusion that they will leave<BR>
for good. I consider it to be virtually a (statistically) foregone<BR>
conclusion that if six people play a weekly game for six<BR>
months that at least one of them will miss at least one session.<BR>
While he is gone his PC is not usually mysteriously beamed off<BR>
of the ship, instead his character is usually NPCed by the GM.<BR>
While he is being NPCed his PC wife has an NPC Ally. I see no <BR>
easy way to charge her the 15 points for an Ally only during the<BR>
week that the player of her charecters husband is gone yet i<BR>
consider it unjust to allow her a free NPC husband. What do you <BR>
do in this sort of situation in your campaigns?<BR>
<BR>
> >Why on earth should Sue get an advantage I had to pay 15 points<BR>
> >for for free?<BR>
<BR>
> So, instead of doing the reasonable thing, which would be to charge Sue the<BR>
> points if she decided she wanted to keep Bob's character in the campaign as<BR>
> an NPC, you charge her points for a situation which might happen several<BR>
> sessions down the line.<BR>
<BR>
No this is only a portion of my logic. the general case for my<BR>
logic is that PC's and NPC's are all characters. Who is playing<BR>
that charecter (the GM or another player) is simply not an important<BR>
factor from my POV. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
> In this case I do. Before you become enmeshed in threads of pedantic<BR>
> argument, I will clarify my statement: Expand the above to "any individual<BR>
> who has a knowledge of GURPS and the cognitive ability to understand how the<BR>
> mechanics are supposed to work together".<BR>
<BR>
IMNSHO the issue at hand is not how the mechanics are supposed <BR>
to work together it is how the mechanics do work together.<BR>
When I see what I believe to be a conflict between a more general <BR>
rule (Advantages cost points) and a less general rule (PC<BR>
Allies don't cost points) I generally prefer to go with the more<BR>
general rule. Since you seem to disagree with my basic interpretation<BR>
in the case in question I understand why we can not agree.<BR>
<BR>
> I've already said precisely what GURPS is designed to do <BR>
> "The point system is intended to balance player characters, of this there<BR>
> can be little doubt or little misunderstanding... The very point of<BR>
> balancing player characters on the same scale is an attempt to ensure that<BR>
> each player character gets a fair amount of 'screen time' and is equally<BR>
> important to the game. <BR>
<BR>
I disagree. I see them not as a measure of 'screen time' which<BR>
should be controlled by the GM but rather as 'potential to do<BR>
things'. Since having friends, PC or NPC, helps you do things<BR>
I think they should be worth points. Again YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
> >This is not how I read GURPS, which clearly states:<BR>
> >"Skills and Advantages cost points." "The GURPS system is<BR>
> >balanced. All 100 point charecters start off "equivalent,"<BR>
> >though not the same."<BR>
> >GURPS 3rd Ed Rev p 11. (Character Creation)<BR>
<BR>
> Dirty pool, Mr. Newman, dirty pool. One of the great things about the<BR>
> English language is that a context is required. Sentences pick up meaning<BR>
> thanks to words placed in a certain sort of context. Paragraphs pick up<BR>
> meaning thanks to sentences placed in a certain context with each other.<BR>
> Sections of text pick up meaning thanks to paragraphs placed in a certain<BR>
> context with each other.<BR>
<BR>
Yes they sure do. <BR>
<BR>
> In the first eighty years of that century, the emperors were all hand-picked<BR>
> successors of their sonless predecessors. In my opinion, McLuhan, whose<BR>
> metier was hyperbole, is far from exaggerating the case here. At the time,<BR>
> the Spanish Civil War hardly looked like a good omen for the defeat of<BR>
> fascism. It is hard, for example, to think of a historical work that is more<BR>
> multicultural than that of Herodotus.<BR>
<BR>
> That last paragraph doesn't make much sense, does it? It wasn't intended to.<BR>
> I grabbed some books at arm's length and picked random sentences and<BR>
> liberated them from their context and placed them in a new one. The same<BR>
> thing works in reverse as well.<BR>
<BR>
My sentences, unlike yours, are from subsequent paragraphs on <BR>
the same page of the same book. As such there is no comparison <BR>
between my sentences and yours. Dirty Pool indeed.<BR>
<BR>
> The sentences you picked are from the section "Creating a Character". The<BR>
> paragraph it makes up a large portion of comes directly after a series of<BR>
> paragraphs (the series starts with the paragraph which starts "One thing<BR>
> should be understood before you go on."). The paragraph you quoted from was<BR>
> put to a different use than the one you've put it too. Instead of being a<BR>
> paragraph which dispels fears that the GURPS character creation system,<BR>
> since it is not random, creates cookie cutter characters, you cite it as<BR>
> being one which explains the whole of the GURPS design philosophy. It isn't.<BR>
<BR>
It does not, by itself, explain the whole of the GURPS design<BR>
philosophy but, in conjunction with the Introduction can <BR>
explain much of it.<BR>
<BR>
> The design philosophy of a game can be discovered in one way and one way<BR>
> only: You have to look at the pieces of the puzzle and see how the mechanics<BR>
> are intended to work together. <BR>
<BR>
So the notion of reading the Introduction to a game and<BR>
finding out the design philosophy in inappropriate? The<BR>
introduction to GURPS (p 5) discusses what the words Generic,<BR>
Universal, Role-Playing, and System mean to Steve Jackson.<BR>
When I read subsequent GURPS rules I try to do so with<BR>
the game philosophy evinced here in mind.<BR>
<BR>
> Now, there are people who think about the challenges of providing balance<BR>
> for the player characters. I happen to be one of those people, although I<BR>
> have yet to come up with a working system The problem in character balance is > one of player character balance. A player with too little to do in a gaming <BR>
> session can be disruptive, and I don't necessarily mean intentionally.<BR>
<BR>
I agree but I disagree that points are the best measure of <BR>
this. Who gets to do more a 300 point charecter who spent<BR>
all his points on Invulnerability: All Kinetic Damage or a<BR>
100 point charecter with a good balance of stats, skills,<BR>
advantages and (plot complicating) disadvantages?<BR>
<BR>
> The issue of game balance, throughout the history of roleplaying games, has<BR>
> never been an issue of balancing non-player characters with player<BR>
> characters. This is a simple enough task for anyone who knows how the<BR>
> mechanics work individually. <BR>
<BR>
This is quite true it is simply at odds with how I read GURPS.<BR>
I'm not saying that the view I am proponing is _better_ than<BR>
your POV I am simply saying that, IMHO, it is closer to<BR>
the stated intent of the games design, Obviously your mileage<BR>
does vary.<BR>
<BR>
> >> Well, I don't see the point here, actually.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >To balance the charecter sheets of course.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ach! I was completely off. Not only do you not understand the intent of the<BR>
> GURPS character creation system, you don't understand the point of the hobby<BR>
> of roleplaying. There's a reason that games such as these are referred to as<BR>
> "roleplaying games", not "character sheet balancing".<BR>
<BR>
This is precisely why many people dislike GURPS. They feel<BR>
that it has too much "character sheet balancing". They are<BR>
arguably right. Again I am not discussing what role playing<BR>
in general ought to be, I am discussing how (IMO) to make<BR>
the rules slightly more consistent: Remove one word (NPC)<BR>
from the text of one advantage. It may well be that GURPS<BR>
is to detail oriented to be the best RPG.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[1] At least not since I was a teenager, and that was more<BR>
teenage, borderline monty haul, hack & slash with a strong<BR>
pinch of melodrama rather than serious storytelling.<BR>
<BR>
[2] This reflects my overall weltanschung and, as such, is<BR>
incurable. If a player complains that they are being hosed<BR>
when (on a CR 6 planet) the hidden microphones pick up<BR>
their treasonous speech and the hidden lasers attack them then<BR>
IMHO they have not considered just what CR 6 means at Tl 9+.<BR>
YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
While I don't have to get the last word in perhaps we should<BR>
wrap up this discussion fairly soon as it is apparent we are <BR>
unlikely to reach a consensus.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:49:37 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> >> Yes it does state that. I think that statement is wrong and<BR>
> >> contradicts the basic GURPS design philosophy (see below).<BR>
<BR>
> >Eris, get a bottle of champagne. Truly it is a great day for Heresy!<BR>
<BR>
> I've given up trying to decide whether he actually believes all<BR>
> these things he comes up with.  First, Peter is a strict<BR>
> constructionist with his reading of MT rules and now he favors a<BR>
> liberal interpretation of GURPS rules.  <BR>
<BR>
I thought everyone knew that while the MT rules were brought<BR>
down from a mountain by Charlton Heston the GURPS rules were<BR>
written by Evil Steevie. Obviously the MT rules, with errata,<BR>
are sacred writ while GURPS is just a game.<BR>
<BR>
Moreover I am still strict constructionist until the rules <BR>
conflict. Then I believe that you need to go by the more basic <BR>
rule. This is no more Heresy than a Christian who considers the <BR>
Ten Commandments more important than some other parts of the Bible <BR>
(Yes I know some people would say this heresy too, but the TML <BR>
is not the best place to discuss that.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 05:26:36 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
Yeah me too.  Ouch that hurt..:)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 1:08 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> Minor kitchen safety note:  nudity and saut=E9ing do not mix. =20<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Nudity and frying bacon. *ouch*<BR>
> <BR>
> Been there, done that. Thankfully I *don't* have the scars to prove it!<BR>
> A couple inches to one side, though.... <shudder><BR>
> <BR>
> -- <BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 02:24:49 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Peter Newman (was: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
Having reviewed many recent postings by the entity calling itself "Peter <BR>
Newman", and finding them closely in accord with the philosophy sometimes <BR>
termed "Lawful Neutral", I have a question:<BR>
<BR>
Is "Peter Newman", in fact, a rogue modron?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:34:17 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Arty (was re:ground combat)<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
> Subject: RE: PD and Arty (Was re:ground combat)<BR>
><BR>
> Here's my rant on the effectivenss of PD<BR>
><BR>
> The only way PD will _remain_ effective is if the people using it have<BR>
good<BR>
> nuclear dampers, and/or the people using the artillery don't have or for<BR>
> some reason can't use, any nukes.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I think about 'internal' wars within the Imperium. A free hand with nukes<BR>
kinda makes war pointless.<BR>
<BR>
> A single nuke will burn out all your PD sensors, including LIDAR, long<BR>
> enough to dump lots of normal artillery rounds on the target.<BR>
><BR>
> As the nuke is not being used against an actual target, it's just being<BR>
set<BR>
> off, probably exo-atmopspheric,it will avoid military nuke usage bans in<BR>
the<BR>
> same way that Paul Atreides did in Dune.<BR>
<BR>
My feeling is that twelve out of ten Imperial Authorities would find this<BR>
unacceptable in a big way.<BR>
<BR>
> Another problem with point defence is that it can be overloaded by large<BR>
> numbers of incoming shells and decoys, and if physical ,it represents a<BR>
> _huge_ drain on the defender's supply train.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Huh ? Surely overloading them with large numbers of shells and decoys will<BR>
represent a huge drain on the attacker's supply train ...<BR>
<BR>
> How many seconds of fire does a GAU75 have before it either heats up too<BR>
> much to fire or you have to reload ? Sure, cooling will get better, and<BR>
> emplaced point defense can stockpile lots of rounds, but there will still<BR>
be<BR>
> a limit on "physical" PD.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Well, yeah. The point is not to stop artillery, it is to make it's job more<BR>
difficult. You can overload anything - PD just makes the number of rounds<BR>
needed for this greater than one. It's the difference between sinking the<BR>
Eliat and sinking, say, a Knox. You can sink both with anti-ship missiles,<BR>
but you need more than one to overload the point defenses on a Knox.<BR>
<BR>
> I agree that under Traveller you can use lasers for the job, because<BR>
> Traveller lasers and power supplies are just far too good to be true, but<BR>
> even there, compare the cost of supplying such lasers compared to the cost<BR>
> of buying a regiment of artillery.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Done. Under FFS2 ? What TL ? Lasers are damn cheap under FFS2.<BR>
<BR>
> When talking about well-equipped Imperial Marines taking on planetary<BR>
> governments, maybe they can ignore artillery because they're being paid<BR>
for<BR>
> by more than one world !<BR>
><BR>
> But for combat between planetary governments, if one government spends<BR>
it's<BR>
> budget on PD lasers, the opposing government could field so much more<BR>
other<BR>
> lower TL equipment that the PD lasers will probably prove to be an<BR>
> albatross.<BR>
<BR>
The key to PD is not what it does to artillery, it's what it does to<BR>
missiles and aircraft. What it does to artillery is a nice bonus.<BR>
<BR>
If the enemy neglects PD, then we tear them apart with guided missiles, and<BR>
thats as far as it goes. Their armour will die to ATGMs, their artllery to<BR>
missiles with cluster bomblet warheads fired at grid co-ordinates identified<BR>
for counter-battery fire, and after the supporting arms go, then their<BR>
infantry will follow.<BR>
<BR>
And remember, where there are PD lasers, there are no thin-skinned aircraft.<BR>
At all.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Another point, unless the defender can afford so much PD that they can<BR>
cover<BR>
> their _entire_ infrastructure with it ( in which case, you'd be bloody<BR>
silly<BR>
> to try and attack them!), then artillery will still be useful for hitting<BR>
> undefended physical targets, denying transport capability, and general<BR>
> infrastucture attacks.<BR>
<BR>
This is requiring warfare outside the Imperial Rules of War. There isnt much<BR>
you can ever do to stop atrocity warfare.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> As artillery at high TL will probably include man-portable miniaturized<BR>
> howitzers, similar in size and weight to todays 2" mortars, but with the<BR>
> punch of a 105mm pack how or more , complete with all the same targetting<BR>
> capabilities of the PD, heres's a plan of attack.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
FWIW these cannot be built under FFS2. On the other hand, you can build a<BR>
fairly decent short-range rocket. Or just use some sort of man- (or<BR>
small-girl-) portable plasma weapon.<BR>
<BR>
> Firstly, your spec forcs get in position to eliminate the PD batteries by<BR>
> massed direct fire of man-portable howitzers from extreme close range, say<BR>
a<BR>
> hundred or so feet, or even just by placing satchel charges on the power<BR>
> supplies.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Frankie, I dont know about anyone else, but my PD goes either on armoured<BR>
vehicles or on mini firebases (along with the company mortar). Remember, all<BR>
a PD system is is a 20mm cannon with a sensor device and some computing<BR>
power. Area Defense systems are PD systems that use PAWs or Lasers for<BR>
interdiction capability out to line-of-sight.<BR>
<BR>
And, frankly, if you want to waste your special forces on doing covert<BR>
assaults on C company's Support Vulcan, great.<BR>
<BR>
> PD can't be set to operate at close range or it is more of a danger to<BR>
it's<BR>
> own forces than the enemy. If a single shot from an ATR or equivalent at<BR>
> ground level is enough to unleash laser fire in the direction of the shot,<BR>
> then infiltrators could have a field day using the enemy's PD to shoot at<BR>
> itself. If it isn't, then that angle of attack becomes a weakness in the<BR>
PD.<BR>
><BR>
> Then your artillery hits the supply routes to prevent any more PD being<BR>
> brought into the area before your attack goes in, then we continue with<BR>
> normal artillery barrage against troops that, with luck, aren't as dug in<BR>
as<BR>
> they should be, because they're relying on their PD.<BR>
<BR>
Well, OK. By my numbers, to assault C company, we are using a section of<BR>
Special Forces types, plus a bunch of artillery to interdict, plus a bunch<BR>
of artillery to bombard. Plus I guess some assets to actually assault C<BR>
company.<BR>
<BR>
Just think, if C company's paymasters didnt invest in the PD Vulcan (costing<BR>
maybe KCr 300, and pulling double duty as their AAW asset), then all that<BR>
artillery would be shooting directly at them ...<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Obviously the above _could_ be countered in many ways, but the idea of<BR>
> eliminating the "covering fire" before the attack is as old as bombards,<BR>
and<BR>
> saying that PD neccessarily makes artillery ineffective is similar to the<BR>
> claims about the Titanic being unsinkable.<BR>
<BR>
I never built that straw man. What I claimed is that PD would bring<BR>
artillery 'back to the pack'.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> In fact it's worse, because PD _is_ artillery, just a specialized use of<BR>
it,<BR>
> so perhaps what we'll see is duels between opposing PD systems targetting<BR>
> each other while the normal artillery flies overhead unhindered !<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Highly unlikely, becuase of line-of-sight limitations - artillery will often<BR>
fire from beyond the horizon, while PD will tend to be line of sight, due to<BR>
sensor requirements.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2602<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 14 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2603<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure <BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
RE: Bohemian Class SDB<BR>
Re: Men & Women OT: ( was Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core)<BR>
Re: Peter Newman OT: (was: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
Body Mods (was re: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597 )<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:36:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
Eris writes:<BR>
<BR>
> On 06/13/00 at 09:08 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
><BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>>> Minor kitchen safety note:  nudity and saut=E9ing do not mix. =20<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Nudity and frying bacon. *ouch*<BR>
><BR>
>>Been there, done that. Thankfully I *don't* have the scars to prove it! A<BR>
>>couple inches to one side, though.... <shudder><BR>
><BR>
> "Bacon frying in the nude....an entry  for the Darwin Awards! News at 10." <BR>
> <g><BR>
<BR>
And I suppose *you* didn't indulge in behavior equally worthy of a<BR>
Darwin Award back when you were 18?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:38:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>> Nudity and frying bacon. *ouch*<BR>
>><BR>
>>Been there, done that. Thankfully I *don't* have the scars to prove it!<BR>
>>A couple inches to one side, though.... <shudder><BR>
><BR>
> I used to work in a craft jewelry studio, and one of my co-workers was a<BR>
> nudist. While she would come to work clothed, she would work in her own<BR>
> studio with only an apron, which would leave her legs completely bare. She<BR>
> would have all kinds of minor burns, as dropping hot metal is actually quite<BR>
> common in the trade. However, one day she had been making jewelry in the<BR>
> form of leaves and she dropped one of them on her upper thigh. She had a<BR>
> huge leaf-scar which looked like it had been a very painful burn.<BR>
<BR>
If the leaf shape showed clearly, I know people who would *pay* for<BR>
something like that...<BR>
<BR>
> There's a lesson in there somewhere having something to do with really,<BR>
> really hot metal and nekkidness. Actually, I think that the subject of<BR>
> frying in the nude came up before, ages ago.<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav: Various forms of body modification are explored in the real world,<BR>
> especially in the last decade (maybe two now) as a result of the various<BR>
> facets of what can loosely be called the "neo-tribalism" movement.<BR>
> Body-piercing, tattoing and scarification are the common forms today.<BR>
<BR>
Also, less common but *far* from uncommon: brandings and "cuttings". <BR>
<BR>
Branding ought to be pretty obvious, but it can actually provide some<BR>
rather nice designs if done carefully.<BR>
<BR>
Cutting is the art of cutting fine lines in the skin with a sharp<BR>
blade. You want *scalpel* sharp, and fairly shallow lines. The designs<BR>
can be temporary, though some people who tend to scarring easily will<BR>
show *very* fine scars from even "temporary" cuttings. Or they can be<BR>
made permanent buy "rubbing in" carefully selected materials (similar<BR>
to most tribal scarification rituals, except using known sterile<BR>
materials). <BR>
<BR>
> What<BR>
> new technologies might appear in body modification? I know that there's a<BR>
> company out there right now working on fiber optic tattoos. I know that in<BR>
> Sterling's "The Artificial Kid" the main character had hair that was treated<BR>
> in such a way that it was stiff and would rise when he got excited. A very<BR>
> cool visual, and it seems plausible at Traveller TLs. My imagination is<BR>
> limited at the moment, and I can't think of anything else. Anybody have any<BR>
> ideas?<BR>
<BR>
Some old technologies that aren't much used but could be revived<BR>
"implant" things like jewels or metal inlays in teeth or even in the<BR>
bone of the skull. <BR>
<BR>
Subcutaneous light emitting circuitry could turn your body into an<BR>
animated sign. <BR>
<BR>
And as things like regeneration/transplantation become routine, there<BR>
will be folks using the technology for body modification. Transplant<BR>
technology will allow grafting stuff on. If genetic mods are possible,<BR>
or if it becomes possible to prevent rehjection by telling your body<BR>
that a foreign tissue graft is "self", rather than "not self", you get<BR>
stuff like feathers, quills, tails, etc. <BR>
<BR>
When regen becomes easy, there *will* be folks experimenting with<BR>
amputations. You name it, they may cut it off. After all, if they later<BR>
change their minds, it can be grown back. <BR>
<BR>
And expect all sorts of weird "sexual" mods. Breasts on men, penises on<BR>
women, folks with both sets of genitals, or "enhanced" genitals...<BR>
<BR>
Enhanced? Well, anybody who has ever seen a bull looking for a cow that<BR>
is in heat will have some ideas (would you believe *prehensile*!?) <BR>
<BR>
Even *I* am a bit bothered by some of the possibilities (which I<BR>
encountered in a rather odd bit of porn many years back). And there are<BR>
likely things none of use will think of.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:45:52 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
I'd accept the faint hex grid option.<BR>
<BR>
Two thoughts:<BR>
<BR>
A light blue grid would be ideal, since most photocopiers<BR>
ignore it and people who don't want hex grids could have<BR>
their way.<BR>
<BR>
If you are looking for a future ship, I'd really like plans<BR>
for a liner, something in the 1-5 kDt range.<BR>
<BR>
This would have a lot more variety, especially if a frontier<BR>
liner with the odd laser turret. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
You also get lots of different cabins and shops and entertainment,<BR>
and, and...<BR>
<BR>
*plus*<BR>
<BR>
It won't clash with any existing resource - since liners<BR>
operated by different companies (or even ones bought in different<BR>
decades or for different routes) could be very different on the<BR>
inside.<BR>
<BR>
*big plus*<BR>
<BR>
you could experiment with using real gold leaf on the page<BR>
with the luxury suites.<BR>
<BR>
8-)<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 04:12:14 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > > What makes some men "pond scum" is their insistence on taking<BR>
> > > women who are not that way and trying to mold them to fit.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > It's not just men who do that. Or we wouldn't have a stereotype of<BR>
> > the *woman* who marries a man and then tries to change everything<BR>
> > about him!<BR>
> > <BR>
> This may surprise you, but I completely agree.  We simply happened to<BR>
> be talking about men at the time.  And the particular change we were<BR>
> discussing (a person trying to run their partner's career) is one that<BR>
> is usually attempted by men upon women.<BR>
> <BR>
> The only thing I ever attempted to change about a man I was living<BR>
> with was to get the idea across that leaving one's dirty clothes in a<BR>
> path from the front door all across shared areas of the household to<BR>
> one's favorite chair is NOT polite to the other persons with whom one<BR>
> shares the house.  I've yet to meet a female who does that.  <BR>
<BR>
You are fortunate.  I've known a number of women who did this and <BR>
had one as a housemate for a year.  Slobs, even seriously, <BR>
disgusting slobs come in all genders.  <BR>
<BR>
> > > Insecurity.  Men are socialized that they have to compete all the<BR>
> > > time.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > And it not only didn't take on some of us, it led to a lot of<BR>
> > unnecessary trauma. :-(<BR>
> > <BR>
> I know.<BR>
> <BR>
> > Hopefully society will "grow up" a bit in the next few thousand<BR>
> > years and accept the idea that some people aren't wired that way<BR>
> > *regardless* of sex.<BR>
> <BR>
> I agree, however a lot of damage has also been done by<BR>
> overenthusiastic persons who have tried to force boys NOT to be<BR>
> competitive and girls NOT to be retiring when this happens to be that<BR>
> person's general nature.  It is probably true that most men are<BR>
> somewhat more aggressive and competitive than most women.  If it<BR>
> weren't, our society wouldn't have evolved in the way that it has. <BR>
> The point of civilization, however, is to recognize that not everyone<BR>
> fits into a mold and to make room for those who do things differently,<BR>
> provided no one else is harmed by it.<BR>
<BR>
Actually (donning my anthropologist hat here) just about every trait <BR>
like competitiveness and aggression can be fairly easily proven to <BR>
be dependent upon culture.  The influence that the culture that you <BR>
are raised in has upon you is vastly underrated in the modern day, <BR>
just as the impact of biology upon our behavior patterns is IMHO <BR>
vastly overrated now.  Sociobiology and similar philosophical <BR>
systems have some very serious flaws, but genetic determinism is <BR>
popular now, and has been popular in the US for most of the past <BR>
century.  The reasons for its popularity make a fascinating study in <BR>
themselves.  One of the major reasons for its popularity has to do <BR>
with the usefullness to the folks who control the status quo of <BR>
having a system which states that the status quo is innate in <BR>
humanity and is therefore impossible to change.    <BR>
<BR>
In any case, the type and general level of aggression in a culture is <BR>
quite variable.  Compare murder and violent crime rates among <BR>
even a series of First World cultures, then do comparisons with <BR>
portions of the less westernized third world and the differences <BR>
become fairly extreme.  <BR>
<BR>
As an example, the levels of violent crime we have in the US have <BR>
been fairly constant for the past 50-70 years (possibly longer, I <BR>
forget the exact data).  They mostly vary as a function of the <BR>
number of teens and youngs 20s around at any given time (the <BR>
reason that these rates dropped substantially from the mid 90s to <BR>
the present was the decline the the number of people in these age <BR>
ranges).  This rate of violence is considerably higher than much of <BR>
the rest of the First World.  Similarly, rates of male vs female <BR>
violence vary wrt culture.    <BR>
<BR>
Similarly, I strongly suspect that the feelings of passivity you feel <BR>
when in a deeply committed romantic relationship are purely a <BR>
function of cultural upbringing and personal psychology.  I've known <BR>
both men and women who react in this fashion.  Studies in gender <BR>
and psychology have never proven any significant difference in <BR>
behavior due to gender which could not be traced to either poor <BR>
research techniques or cultural conditioning.  However, this is not <BR>
to say that such conditioning is easy to change.  However, change <BR>
the culture enough and such things change.  <BR>
<BR>
One trivial example:  Try to pickup a living, white,  squirming beetle <BR>
grub or termite larva and eat it, while it is still alive. Most <BR>
Westerners will be unable to do so, and many of those that <BR>
manage to do so will become physically ill. In some cultures such <BR>
things are delicacies.  If such one person's taste treat is almost <BR>
literally impossible to eat to another person,  consider how else <BR>
culture shapes us.<BR>
<BR>
Repeating a crucial statement you made again:<BR>
<BR>
> It is probably true that most men are somewhat more aggressive <BR>
> and competitive than most women.  If it weren't, our society <BR>
> wouldn't have evolved in the way that it has.<BR>
<BR>
Such cultural norms can be very enduring, and if they form a <BR>
crucial piece of the culture's social structure then such things can <BR>
prove *very* difficult to change.  Saying that the existence of any  <BR>
trait in our own culture proves that it is in any way innate to our <BR>
species is usually a remarkably unfounded assumption.  I can dig <BR>
out some counter-examples if you wish, but for now I'll just say that <BR>
this is the sort of thinking which has been used to justify all sorts <BR>
of horrors, including racism.  Humans are incredibly flexible as a <BR>
species.  The incest taboo seems to be fairly universal (it is broken <BR>
in a number of cultures, but only in specific, highly limited and <BR>
defined contexts).  However, there honestly are not that many other <BR>
cultural universals of behavior.<BR>
<BR>
In short, given that the Imperium is a mixture of Vilani society and <BR>
Solomani society with additions from many other cultures, some of <BR>
which are fully non-human, we have a great degree of flexibility wrt <BR>
the Imperium's social structure, gender roles and social norms.<BR>
At minimum, borrow from any past or present Earth culture you like <BR>
and you have just as good a chance as being on-target as anyone <BR>
else.  <BR>
<BR>
Also, given how much the existence of reliable, widely available  <BR>
female-controlled contraception has changed gender-roles in the <BR>
West in 40 years, having a few thousand years of such technology <BR>
available, combined with cloning, artificial wombs, and medical <BR>
advances which imply fully reversible sex changes by Traveller TL <BR>
11, or at worst by TL 13, I would imagine that gender rolls and <BR>
psychological gender differences will be all over the map, and will <BR>
depend purely upon what world you are on.  Like everything else in <BR>
the Imperium, there will be a Vilani-influenced standard of behavior  <BR>
which will be followed by the higher nobles, but that too could quite <BR>
quite different from our own norms.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:25:47 +0100<BR>
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk<BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>Another option for gaining PC allies would be to use the "Improvement<BR>
>through Study Rule" (p 82) which states that 200 hours of study<BR>
>in a skill are worth 1 character point. If you extend this rule<BR>
>from skills to advantages then to gain a 15 point Ally for<BR>
>'free' you might have to spend 3,000 hours wooing her to earn<BR>
>the 15 points.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
There's an interesting thought.<BR>
<BR>
If you reckon on spending 8 hours of a day 'wooing', 3000 hours is close to<BR>
a year.  Exactly what it took me to gain my 'Ally' for life!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm, now what could I spend my 15 points on?<BR>
<BR>
tc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:30:11 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching wrote:<BR>
> If you are looking for a future ship, I'd really like plans<BR>
> for a liner, something in the 1-5 kDt range.<BR>
> <BR>
> This would have a lot more variety, especially if a frontier<BR>
> liner with the odd laser turret. ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> You also get lots of different cabins and shops and entertainment,<BR>
> and, and...<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like you want The King Richard ...  an  old  FASA  product<BR>
done in "15mm" scale.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:40:35 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
Danny M. Moody wrote:<BR>
> The deckplans should be printed with hexes.  This is a <BR>
> supplement for GURPS Traveller, and GURPS uses hexes.<BR>
<BR>
Yes but "GURPS Traveller" is the GURPS emulation of Traveller and<BR>
Traveller has always been a square grid ... usually "15mm" scale.<BR>
Some GT purchasers are GURPS players who play Traveller, some  GT<BR>
purchasers are Traveller players who mine GT for useful material.<BR>
The success of GT comes from the fact that it services  a  double<BR>
market.  Now play nice and 'share' your toys.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
(Note to non-US people: "15mm" scale uses  0.5  inch  squares  to<BR>
show 1.5m x 1.5m.  0.5 inches is *not* 15mm!)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:04:19 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure <BR>
<BR>
On 13 Jun 00, at 22:40, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
> There is a rather obvious solution to this question<BR>
<BR>
> M1[1] + F + M2 can yield M1 + F, F + M2 and M1 + M2<BR>
> and even M1 + F + M2.<BR>
<BR>
So how many eV does this reaction produce, and does it require deutritium-<BR>
tritum or just straight hydrogen? <g><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:29:58 -0500<BR>
From: "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
Gibson has a lot of body modification in his early stuff.  Pointed ears,<BR>
lots of cybernetic implants etc.  I just reread neuromancer recently and<BR>
there are some good examples there.<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 11:50 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>>> Nudity and frying bacon. *ouch*<BR>
>><BR>
>>Been there, done that. Thankfully I *don't* have the scars to prove it!<BR>
>>A couple inches to one side, though.... <shudder><BR>
><BR>
>I used to work in a craft jewelry studio, and one of my co-workers was a<BR>
>nudist. While she would come to work clothed, she would work in her own<BR>
>studio with only an apron, which would leave her legs completely bare. She<BR>
>would have all kinds of minor burns, as dropping hot metal is actually<BR>
quite<BR>
>common in the trade. However, one day she had been making jewelry in the<BR>
>form of leaves and she dropped one of them on her upper thigh. She had a<BR>
>huge leaf-scar which looked like it had been a very painful burn.<BR>
><BR>
>There's a lesson in there somewhere having something to do with really,<BR>
>really hot metal and nekkidness. Actually, I think that the subject of<BR>
>frying in the nude came up before, ages ago.<BR>
><BR>
>ObTrav: Various forms of body modification are explored in the real world,<BR>
>especially in the last decade (maybe two now) as a result of the various<BR>
>facets of what can loosely be called the "neo-tribalism" movement.<BR>
>Body-piercing, tattoing and scarification are the common forms today. What<BR>
>new technologies might appear in body modification? I know that there's a<BR>
>company out there right now working on fiber optic tattoos. I know that in<BR>
>Sterling's "The Artificial Kid" the main character had hair that was<BR>
treated<BR>
>in such a way that it was stiff and would rise when he got excited. A very<BR>
>cool visual, and it seems plausible at Traveller TLs. My imagination is<BR>
>limited at the moment, and I can't think of anything else. Anybody have any<BR>
>ideas?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 06:20:51 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Bohemian Class SDB<BR>
<BR>
It would be - count it up to typing w/o glasses on :)<BR>
<BR>
http://members.home.net/pinkerdoo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Jens<BR>
'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 12:31 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Bohemian Class SDB<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tsykoduk wrote:<BR>
> Interested parties can view the specs at home.members.net/pinkerdoo.<BR>
<BR>
This URL is broken.<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:37:59 -0600<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Men & Women OT: ( was Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core)<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
> <BR>
> > Aren't our contemporary and historical examples of royalty generally<BR>
> > expected and pressured to marry? How many US Presidents have been<BR>
> > unmarried?<BR>
> <BR>
> In many cases marriage is still seen as a demonstration<BR>
> of heterosexuality. [1] Hence much pressure to marry can be<BR>
> seen as a pressure to evince hetero-normative behavior.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I don't think that the heterosexual aspect enters into it at all. Marriage<BR>
is seen as a willingness to make commitments and stick by them and to enter<BR>
into an arrangement requiring a demonstration of integrity and<BR>
determination. A married leader is seen as stable, secure, and supportive.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, that's just how it's seen. Reality is completely different.<BR>
<BR>
> > A huge portion of our society expects people of status to get married.<BR>
> > It is definitely more respectable for men to remain unmarried:<BR>
> <BR>
> I disagree with that assessment. It is not more respectable<BR>
> to remain unmarried, this is why "confirmed bachelor" is<BR>
> a euphemism for "flaming homosexual" [2]<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I disagree with _that_ assessment. A confirmed bachelor, like JFK Jr., is<BR>
seen as a party animal: wild and reckless. Not someone you'd want leading a<BR>
country.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Erwin Fritz<BR>
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.<BR>
http://www.glja.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 05:39:19 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Peter Newman OT: (was: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Having reviewed many recent postings by the entity calling itself "Peter <BR>
> Newman", and finding them closely in accord with the philosophy sometimes <BR>
> termed "Lawful Neutral", I have a question:<BR>
> Is "Peter Newman", in fact, a rogue modron?<BR>
<BR>
Actually I am essentially a libertarian [1] and would describe<BR>
myself as having essentially a CG (freedom is good, good <BR>
is good, laissez faire) POV, with occasional NE (All the little <BR>
Pokemon players die horribly as I flay them with their own cards) <BR>
lapses. :)<BR>
<BR>
Even if following the rules in 'real life' is LN, the game<BR>
rules, unlike laws, are freely consented to by the players.<BR>
This free consent to the rules that you choose to follow<BR>
is essential a Chaotic philosophy (consent of the governed).<BR>
Moreover following the rules can be LG (Duddly Due Right)<BR>
or LE (I was just following orders when they told me to gas<BR>
all those concentration camp prisoners....)<BR>
<BR>
[1] I used to be an anarchist but I've become slightly more <BR>
of a statist in the last few years. For example I no longer <BR>
believe that 'The right of the people to keep and bear arms.' <BR>
includes personal ownership and carrying of weapons of mass <BR>
destruction. I am also starting to think that perhaps contracting <BR>
a murder ought not to be protected free speech under the First <BR>
Ammendment to the US Constitution. [2]<BR>
<BR>
[2] No I don't care what the US Supreme Court says, when they<BR>
disagree with me they are wrong.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:37:57 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Body Mods (was re: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597 )<BR>
<BR>
R. Talsorian's _Cyberpunk_ game is, of course, the definitive<BR>
source material for body modifications, from the terrifying to<BR>
the downright silly.  Their Chromebook series especially - I think<BR>
_Chromebook 3_ had a section on exotics, people with non-human<BR>
appearing body modifications.  Animal motifs were popular - become<BR>
a scaly-skinned thing that looked kind of dinosaurian, or look<BR>
like a humanoid lion, whatever.  To any of the mods, add the<BR>
"Playbeing Package" to be the life of the party - at least, the<BR>
less public parties.<BR>
<BR>
They also had full-body replacement - your brain and some of your<BR>
spinal column get implanted in a robot body.  Very stressful and<BR>
hard to adapt to, but the things you can do are amazing.  Walk around<BR>
on the ocean floor, rescue people from burning buildings, make a jet <BR>
fighter scream...or take on ten times your weight in power-armored <BR>
troopies.<BR>
<BR>
The cyberfeet with pop-out rollerblades and the cyberlegs with<BR>
built-in wet bar were just taking things a little too far, though. <G><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 06:32:24<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
At 12:40 PM 6/14/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>Danny M. Moody wrote:<BR>
>> The deckplans should be printed with hexes.  This is a <BR>
>> supplement for GURPS Traveller, and GURPS uses hexes.<BR>
><BR>
>Yes but "GURPS Traveller" is the GURPS emulation of Traveller and<BR>
>Traveller has always been a square grid ... usually "15mm" scale.<BR>
<BR>
And that square grid has always bugged me, since it makes movement in<BR>
combat needlessly complex.  Hexes rule!  (Ah, Craig trained me well...)<BR>
<BR>
>Some GT purchasers are GURPS players who play Traveller, some  GT<BR>
>purchasers are Traveller players who mine GT for useful material.<BR>
>The success of GT comes from the fact that it services  a  double<BR>
>market.  Now play nice and 'share' your toys.<BR>
<BR>
That would be nice, but we are talking about a GURPS project.  If this was<BR>
coming from BITS, then adaptability to different editions of the game would<BR>
be a major concern, since they do support Traveller in the generic sense.<BR>
<BR>
But for a SJG product, it should be hexes.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:07:33<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design <BR>
<BR>
At 06:02 PM 6/13/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> I think you are missing a point here, Peter. Points are paid for special<BR>
>> relationships like Ally, yes. But no generic system I've ever seen forces<BR>
>> the PC to pay for positive relationships with other PCs. <BR>
><BR>
>Than the GURPS rules are written improperly. The GURPS rules<BR>
>clearly states that "The GURPS system is balanced. All 100-<BR>
>point characters start off "equivalent" although not the same."<BR>
>The intent of this statement, if believed, requires that<BR>
>PC's pay for positive relationships with other PC's or<BR>
>they will not be equivilant to Pc's with no positive<BR>
>relationships with other PC's.<BR>
<BR>
That is not supported anywhere, in over one hundred published GURPS books.<BR>
<BR>
Here is where you are mistaken:<BR>
<BR>
Bob writes up his 100-pt character, and buys him a 100-pt Ally, 15- (his wife.<BR>
<BR>
Barry and Brenda decide that their characters are twins, and devoted to<BR>
each other, buying Sense of Duty (to twin).<BR>
<BR>
The difference?  Bob's wife is an NPC.  Bob has no control over what she<BR>
does, or *what happens to her.*  As a NPC, she can be made to the most<BR>
incredibly dumb things to advance the plot.  Barry and Brenda, on the other<BR>
hand, are both PCs.  Their characters are not subjected to GM fiat, and can<BR>
decide for themselves what they will do in any given situation.<BR>
<BR>
Let's now say that Barry has to leave the game for a few months.  If Brenda<BR>
wished to run both characters, I might allow that.  I might also ghost the<BR>
character.  But Brenda wouldn't suddenly have to pay 15 points!<BR>
<BR>
If Barry has to leave permanently, then I'm removing his character from the<BR>
game.  <BR>
<BR>
>If Bob's character can count on Sue's charecter to be there<BR>
>for him and back him up and my charecter can not count on her<BR>
>charecter than this difference must be explained (and paid for)<BR>
>in GURPS systems mechanics terms. Is Sue's charecter chooses to<BR>
>back up her husband (Bob's character) because she loves him then<BR>
>her charecter sheet needs to have a Sense of Duty (loved ones)<BR>
>and a Quirk: Loves her husband on it and Bill's charecter<BR>
>sheet needs to have an Ally: Wife on it.<BR>
<BR>
No it doesn't.  There is no requirement that everything being that<BR>
detailed.  That's as ridiculous as trying to get disad points for your<BR>
wedding vows! (happened to me once)<BR>
<BR>
I could also easily point out that these two factors balance out for both<BR>
of them.<BR>
<BR>
Ally 100 points, 15- (+15 points)<BR>
Sense of Duty: Spouse (-5 points)<BR>
Vow: Protect spouse (-5 points)<BR>
Odious Personal Habit: Madly in love (-5 points)<BR>
<BR>
There, both spouses no have a net cost of zero points.<BR>
<BR>
Also Peter, what happens is this PC Spouse *fails the appearance roll?*<BR>
Does the DM tell Sue to go home that night?<BR>
<BR>
>There is no such thing as a PC group. People are represented <BR>
>in GURPS terms as characters. Some of these charecters will be <BR>
>played by the GM (non player characters) and some of them will<BR>
>be played by players (player characters). All major aspects of<BR>
>these charecters behavior, assets, and liabilities must be modeled <BR>
>by GURPS system mechanics. Who is plying this charecter is not <BR>
>at issue.<BR>
<BR>
GURPS 3rd Ed (rev), page 23 "Allies"<BR>
<BR>
"In one sense, the other PCs who adventure with you are allies. But they<BR>
can be unreliable allies indeed.  Often, they are chance acquaintances,<BR>
first encountered at a roadside tavern only hours ago. They have their own<BR>
hidden goals, ethics and motives, which may or may not coincide with your own.<BR>
<BR>
"An NPC Ally, on the other hand, is wholly reliable. Perhaps you fought<BR>
side by side in an extended campaign, trained under the same master, or<BR>
grew up in the same village. The two of your trust each other implicitly.<BR>
You travel together, fight back-to-back, share rations in hard times, trade<BR>
watches through the night."<BR>
<BR>
This makes it clear that Allies are NPCs.<BR>
<BR>
>The GURPS rules state that all 100 point charecters are equivalent.<BR>
>Thus a PC Ally should be no different than an NPC Ally. Other<BR>
>player charecters who help your player charecter are outside<BR>
>assistance.<BR>
<BR>
Except, as stated above PCs tend to have agendas of their own.<BR>
<BR>
GM: "OK, Bob you've lifted the memory core out of the computer.  Congrats<BR>
guys, you've got the plans for the Star Trigger!"<BR>
<BR>
Sue: "I shoot Bob in the back."<BR>
<BR>
Bob: "Sue! What the hell is this?"<BR>
<BR>
DM: *chuckle* "I was wondering when you'd move." *roll, clatter*  "Bob,<BR>
you're smashed to the floor by the shot.  You manage to roll over and see<BR>
Sue standing over you with a gun."<BR>
<BR>
Sue: "I pick up the memory core, and level the gun at Bob. 'Sorry darling,<BR>
but I have to confess, I've lied to you a bit.  I'm not a former Imperial<BR>
Navy intel analyst, I'm a current Zhodani Navy agent.' I blow him a kiss.<BR>
'Thanks dear, without you, this wouldn't have been possible.' I shoot him<BR>
in the head."<BR>
<BR>
Bob: "Noo!<BR>
<BR>
Sue: "Never did ask me what that 30 point Secret was, did you?"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I treat every word of this as gospel except for the word _NPC_.<BR>
>The word NPC makes a distinction between PC's and NPC's that<BR>
>the rest of the GURPS rules, which clearly state that all 100<BR>
>point charecters, PC or NPC, are equivilant do not.<BR>
<BR>
So the you discount the area of the rules that specifically addresses the<BR>
subject of allies as irrelevant?<BR>
<BR>
>To me any time that two charecters  "trust each other implicitly. <BR>
>You travel together, fight back-to-back, share rations in hard <BR>
>times, trade watches throughout the night." GURP 3rd Ed Rev p 23.<BR>
>They are Allies and must pay points for this relationship. At the<BR>
>start of most campaigns most PC's are not Allies in GURPS<BR>
>terms. If two players decide that their charecters have an<BR>
>especially close relationship that meets the description above <BR>
>they must pay points for it. if this means that half the experience<BR>
>the charecters earn must go towards paying for each other as<BR>
>Allies than I have no problems with that.<BR>
<BR>
Peter, please explain to me what happens when half the party fails their<BR>
mutual appearance rolls.<BR>
<BR>
We have five characters, all of whom are allies, 15- to each other.  Any<BR>
math grognard want to play with the numbers?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
   http://gridlore.home.mondspring.com<BR>
<BR>
"A mrgs einu sinni hluti minn systir..."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2603<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2604</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 14 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2604<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design) <BR>
Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design) <BR>
Answers from Kromm (long)<BR>
Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
Re: Deck Plans<BR>
Fwd: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
HELP! Tracking ship movements in a system<BR>
re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?  <BR>
Re: GURPS Character design<BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?  <BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?  <BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2601<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2602<BR>
Re: Transparent Overlays<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
RE: Mayday PDF at all?!<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:17:59<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
<BR>
Peter:<BR>
<BR>
"An Ally is a non-player character, and should be played as such."<BR>
<BR>
"Since Allies are NPCs, they don't automatically earn character points.<BR>
However, the GM may chose to give them more points over a period of time,<BR>
as they gain experience. The GM, not the player, decides who these points<BR>
are spent."<BR>
<BR>
Both of these quotes come from the "GMing the Ally" section on page 24, and<BR>
make it perfectly clear that allies are *not* player characters.  No.<BR>
Nyet.  No siree bob.  An Ally is like Kato to the Green Hornet.  He drives<BR>
the car so that that the PC can go out and have fun.<BR>
<BR>
I cannot find one single reference in either the main rukles or<BR>
Compendendium I to making players spend points on relationships with other<BR>
players.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:56:33 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> >Yes but "GURPS Traveller" is the GURPS emulation of Traveller and<BR>
> >Traveller has always been a square grid ... usually "15mm" scale.<BR>
> <BR>
> And that square grid has always bugged me, since it makes movement<BR>
> in combat needlessly complex.  Hexes rule!  (Ah, Craig trained <BR>
> me well...)<BR>
<BR>
For large area movement  (such  as  outside  locations)  this  is<BR>
somewhat true, but on ship deckplans most corridors are laid  out<BR>
1 grid square wide with right-angles ... and so  is  less  of  an<BR>
issue.  My one beef with square grids is that deckplan walls  are<BR>
usually aligned to grid lines ... ever try and produce  deckplans<BR>
for your  house/apartment?  That's  when  you  realise  that  the<BR>
cramped 2x3 grid squares standard  stateroom  is  actually  quite<BR>
large.  Also a 1 grid square wide corridor is fairly spacious (my<BR>
flat has a short length of corridor and its 1 meter  wide  (about<BR>
0.67 grid squares).  On the other hand deck walls  aligned  to  a<BR>
1.5m square grid is part of Traveller's 'look-and-feel'.<BR>
<BR>
My *big* beef with grids in general is why does "15mm" scale  use<BR>
0.5 inch units?  And why does "25mm"  scale  use  1  inch  units?<BR>
(Does 2 x 15 = 25?  I think not!)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >Some GT purchasers are GURPS players who play Traveller, some  GT<BR>
> >purchasers are Traveller players who mine GT for useful material.<BR>
> >The success of GT comes from the fact that it services  a  double<BR>
> >market.  Now play nice and 'share' your toys.<BR>
> <BR>
> That would be nice, but we are talking about a GURPS project. <BR>
> If this was coming from BITS, then adaptability to different<BR>
> editions of the game would be a major concern, since they do<BR>
> support Traveller in the generic sense.<BR>
> <BR>
> But for a SJG product, it should be hexes.<BR>
<BR>
But its also a commercial product.  If adaptability to  different<BR>
editions of the game boosts sales then (from SJG's point of view)<BR>
its a good thing.  And if adaptability to different  editions  of<BR>
the game looses sales then (from SJG's point of view) its  a  bad<BR>
thing.  That's the bottom line.  It comes down to GURPS  standard<BR>
= more product for your buck Vs adaptability = larger market.  Or<BR>
in other words breadth Vs depth.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:02:53 -0700<BR>
From: Cheryl <cheryl@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design) <BR>
<BR>
on 6/14/00 7:07 AM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
....<BR>
> Except, as stated above PCs tend to have agendas of their own.<BR>
> <BR>
> GM: "OK, Bob you've lifted the memory core out of the computer.  Congrats<BR>
> guys, you've got the plans for the Star Trigger!"<BR>
> <BR>
> Sue: "I shoot Bob in the back."<BR>
> <BR>
> Bob: "Sue! What the hell is this?"<BR>
> <BR>
> DM: *chuckle* "I was wondering when you'd move." *roll, clatter*  "Bob,<BR>
> you're smashed to the floor by the shot.  You manage to roll over and see<BR>
> Sue standing over you with a gun."<BR>
> <BR>
> Sue: "I pick up the memory core, and level the gun at Bob. 'Sorry darling,<BR>
> but I have to confess, I've lied to you a bit.  I'm not a former Imperial<BR>
> Navy intel analyst, I'm a current Zhodani Navy agent.' I blow him a kiss.<BR>
> 'Thanks dear, without you, this wouldn't have been possible.' I shoot him<BR>
> in the head."<BR>
> <BR>
> Bob: "Noo!<BR>
> <BR>
> Sue: "Never did ask me what that 30 point Secret was, did you?"<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
....Ah, the hidden agendas! This sounds exactly like one of our group's<BR>
games. Although as players we use great discretion before actually trying to<BR>
kill another PC. Sometimes the PC has gone on to make us wish we had killed<BR>
them when we were provoked. But it's bad for party unity (and player's<BR>
feelings) to kill one another. Besides the GM does enough damage to our<BR>
parties - he doesn't need help.<BR>
<BR>
Do other group routinely have PC's killing each other off?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:31:09<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design) <BR>
<BR>
At 08:02 AM 6/14/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Do other group routinely have PC's killing each other off?<BR>
<BR>
I used a deliberately extreme example, but in the context of an<BR>
Espionage/Special Ops campaign, having one of the characters in a position<BR>
to betray the others, with a motivation to do so, is a great plot generator.<BR>
<BR>
Take Lennier from Babylon 5.  He loves Delenn, but his position won't let<BR>
him express that love.  So he suffers in silence for almost four years,<BR>
watching as Delenn and Sheridan become closer, then marry.. it finally<BR>
becomes too much, and he snaps.<BR>
<BR>
Knowing how much Lennier loves Delenn puts all his actions in context for<BR>
the rest of the series.<BR>
<BR>
That kind of drama between PCs can be a good thing.  Games where characters<BR>
engage in regular fratricidal wars are a different thing entirely.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:33:48 -0600<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
Subject: Answers from Kromm (long)<BR>
<BR>
Peter sent his questions to me, I forwarded them to Kromm, and he replied<BR>
as follows:<BR>
<BR>
(Posting to the list as a whole because I thought there would be general<BR>
interest)<BR>
<BR>
******<BR>
> Question 1<BR>
> Can PC's be Allies to other PC's?<BR>
<BR>
No. The relationship between two (or more) PCs is determined entirely by<BR>
roleplaying, and is *never* described using Ally, Contact, Dependent,<BR>
Enemy, or Patron. All of those traits are specifically for describing NPCs.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Must PC Allies be paid for when they meet the definition of the NPC<BR>
> Ally?<BR>
<BR>
No! If two PCs forge a lasting alliance, well, more power to the players.<BR>
It verges on the ridiculous to charge points for roleplaying that<BR>
ultimately leads to a more cohesive player-character party. Most GMs would<BR>
give out points for free if it would ensure a cohesive group!!<BR>
<BR>
> However a PC with a PC wife can have a 100 point Ally appearing on a<BR>
> 15- for free but a PC with an NPC wife would have to pay 15 point<BR>
> for it.<BR>
<BR>
The difference is that you *cannot* bind a PC to show up on an appearance<BR>
roll: the player has free will and a role to play in the campaign. Players<BR>
are famously mercurial, too. NPCs do not have free will -- they really only<BR>
exist to act out the plot -- so they are liable to being "summoned" by a<BR>
die roll and thus<BR>
can be Allies worth character points. The difference should be stunningly<BR>
obvious.<BR>
<BR>
> It seems (to me) to violate GURPS design philosophy to permit free<BR>
> advantages.<BR>
<BR>
Allied PCs do not have an advantage. Strong links between PCs are an<BR>
expected part of the roleplaying experience. There is a fundamental<BR>
difference between a friendly PC played by another player, who has no<BR>
obligation to be your ally, but who chooses to back you up, and a friendly<BR>
NPC, who exists solely because you wished her into existence by taking the<BR>
Ally advantage. The former is in the game because someone wants to<BR>
roleplay, while the latter is only in the game to be your Ally.<BR>
<BR>
> Question 2<BR>
<BR>
> If PC Allies do not cost points then what happens if your PC<BR>
> characters wife's player misses the session (making her an NPC). Do<BR>
> you suddenly owe the GM 15 points for your characters NPC Ally,<BR>
> should the NPC vanish from the game, should your character get a free<BR>
> NPC ally, or what?<BR>
<BR>
The character remains a PC. What makes a character a PC is that a player<BR>
conceived and created the character with the intent to roleplay her.<BR>
Missing a session does not change the character's status from PC to NPC. It<BR>
just means that the PC is not being actively played that session. It is<BR>
long-standing RPG etiquette for the GM and the other players to call the<BR>
shots for that PC collectively, *in the spirit of the player's portrayal of<BR>
her character.*<BR>
<BR>
If two players elect to roleplay close allies, then when one player is<BR>
absent, her PC should remain a friend of the other<BR>
PC. However, just as a PC is not bound to show up as the result of an<BR>
appearance roll -- like a NPC Ally is -- the playerless PC should not<BR>
simply appear on the command of her partner. The playerless PC should carry<BR>
on exactly as she does when she is actively roleplayed . . . and very few<BR>
gamers will have their PC slavishly appear whenever another PC calls for<BR>
her!<BR>
<BR>
SP.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch, GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games<BR>
[EMAIL] <kromm@sjgames.com> or <seanm.punch@sympatico.ca><BR>
[WWW]   http://www.io.com/~kromm/<BR>
<BR>
*****<BR>
<BR>
Hopefully this will shed some light?<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman<BR>
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
     SJ Games<BR>
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>
     (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>
     (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:42:54 EDT<BR>
From: TDRandall@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone on the list make sense of the interstellar travel costs with a <BR>
nice real-world example?  Essentially the rule is that no matter how far the <BR>
jump is, a passenger/freight is charged the same amount because it is one <BR>
jump.  Is it just for convenience of calculation?<BR>
<BR>
Maybe it is not such an issue for the frieght (it seems I remember somebody <BR>
speaking of train cargo rates in the present world), but it seems to me that <BR>
the savings in time and convenience would raise the price for passengers in <BR>
particular.<BR>
<BR>
For instance, suppose a person wants to go to a world 4 parsecs away.  At <BR>
first, their only hope of transport appears to be a 1j capable ship which <BR>
means at least four weeks, definitely four legs of the trip, and four fares <BR>
for a total of Cr40000.  Then a 2j capable ship shows up.  Now the person is <BR>
looking at a travel time of half the time, and per the rules it costs <BR>
Cr20000.  If a 4j ship shows up, the passenger now can do the trip in 1 week <BR>
and pay only Cr 10000.  What a deal!  For convenience alone they should be <BR>
willing to pay more;  depending on the passenger, they may be willing to pay <BR>
more than $400 simply for the 4j trip and even charging the same $400 for the <BR>
entire trip seems reasonable given the shorter travel time.<BR>
<BR>
Now, add in the room for other passengers/cargo (or lack thereof).  The <BR>
operators of the ship should pay the same for fuel, assuming the same size <BR>
ship.  It's just that the operators of the 1j ship can fill 4 times, the 2j <BR>
ship twice, and the 4j ship has to do it before the trip.  All the jump fuel <BR>
takes space, which reduces the remainder of billable space.  Assuming that <BR>
the crews want to make the same amount of money, why wouldn't the longer jump <BR>
ships charge more?<BR>
<BR>
The best present day comparison I come up with is the airlines, and the <BR>
scenario doesn't correlate.  I would never expect to pay the same to take the <BR>
Concord straight from New York to Europe in mere hours as a pusher prop that <BR>
has to fly in four legs and refuel at each stop.<BR>
<BR>
BTW - I happen to be going through the TNE rulebook at the moment, but I <BR>
expect the other editions do the same thing.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for any insights you can give!<BR>
<BR>
Tony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:48:49 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Deck Plans<BR>
<BR>
Just for the record, my personal preference would be for faint 1.5 m<BR>
squares on the deck plans.  I don't actually use squares or hexes in<BR>
combat, but having squares helps me to figure out size/range.  Thus, 1 m<BR>
squares would work as well (I'm just used to 1.5 m squares).  Hexes are<BR>
less useful for this purpose (IMHO).  Going with overlays would be my<BR>
second choice, but I might consider purchasing plans with a faint hex grid.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:52:59 EDT<BR>
From: TDRandall@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Fwd: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
<BR>
- --part1_9a.6263c8d.2679045b_boundary<BR>
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<BR>
In a message dated 6/14/00 11:42:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TDRandall <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< The best present day comparison I come up with is the airlines, and the <BR>
scenario doesn't correlate.  I would never expect to pay the same to take the <BR>
Concord straight from New York to Europe in mere hours as a pusher prop that <BR>
has to fly in four legs and refuel at each stop. >><BR>
<BR>
Sorry, a correction that makes it that much stronger ->  I would never expect <BR>
to pay the same to take the Concord straight from New York to Europe in mere <BR>
hours as the FIRST LEG of a trip traveled by pusher prop that has to fly it <BR>
in four stages, refueling at each stop.<BR>
<BR>
- --part1_9a.6263c8d.2679045b_boundary<BR>
Content-Type: message/rfc822<BR>
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<BR>
Return-path: <TDRandall@aol.com><BR>
From: TDRandall@aol.com<BR>
Full-name: TDRandall<BR>
Message-ID: <c.67d1dc0.267901fe@aol.com><BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:42:54 EDT<BR>
Subject: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
MIME-Version: 1.0<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 110<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone on the list make sense of the interstellar travel costs with a <BR>
nice real-world example?  Essentially the rule is that no matter how far the <BR>
jump is, a passenger/freight is charged the same amount because it is one <BR>
jump.  Is it just for convenience of calculation?<BR>
<BR>
Maybe it is not such an issue for the frieght (it seems I remember somebody <BR>
speaking of train cargo rates in the present world), but it seems to me that <BR>
the savings in time and convenience would raise the price for passengers in <BR>
particular.<BR>
<BR>
For instance, suppose a person wants to go to a world 4 parsecs away.  At <BR>
first, their only hope of transport appears to be a 1j capable ship which <BR>
means at least four weeks, definitely four legs of the trip, and four fares <BR>
for a total of Cr40000.  Then a 2j capable ship shows up.  Now the person is <BR>
looking at a travel time of half the time, and per the rules it costs <BR>
Cr20000.  If a 4j ship shows up, the passenger now can do the trip in 1 week <BR>
and pay only Cr 10000.  What a deal!  For convenience alone they should be <BR>
willing to pay more;  depending on the passenger, they may be willing to pay <BR>
more than $400 simply for the 4j trip and even charging the same $400 for the <BR>
entire trip seems reasonable given the shorter travel time.<BR>
<BR>
Now, add in the room for other passengers/cargo (or lack thereof).  The <BR>
operators of the ship should pay the same for fuel, assuming the same size <BR>
ship.  It's just that the operators of the 1j ship can fill 4 times, the 2j <BR>
ship twice, and the 4j ship has to do it before the trip.  All the jump fuel <BR>
takes space, which reduces the remainder of billable space.  Assuming that <BR>
the crews want to make the same amount of money, why wouldn't the longer jump <BR>
ships charge more?<BR>
<BR>
The best present day comparison I come up with is the airlines, and the <BR>
scenario doesn't correlate.  I would never expect to pay the same to take the <BR>
Concord straight from New York to Europe in mere hours as a pusher prop that <BR>
has to fly in four legs and refuel at each stop.<BR>
<BR>
BTW - I happen to be going through the TNE rulebook at the moment, but I <BR>
expect the other editions do the same thing.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for any insights you can give!<BR>
<BR>
Tony<BR>
<BR>
- --part1_9a.6263c8d.2679045b_boundary--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:03:03 -0400<BR>
From: michael stasica <stosh@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
<BR>
TDRandall@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Can anyone on the list make sense of the interstellar travel costs with a<BR>
> nice real-world example?<BR>
<BR>
SNIP<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> For instance, suppose a person wants to go to a world 4 parsecs away.  At<BR>
> first, their only hope of transport appears to be a 1j capable ship which<BR>
> means at least four weeks, definitely four legs of the trip, and four fares<BR>
> for a total of Cr40000.  Then a 2j capable ship shows up.  Now the person is<BR>
> looking at a travel time of half the time, and per the rules it costs<BR>
> Cr20000.  If a 4j ship shows up, the passenger now can do the trip in 1 week<BR>
> and pay only Cr 10000.  What a deal!  For convenience alone they should be<BR>
> willing to pay more;  depending on the passenger, they may be willing to pay<BR>
> more than $400 simply for the 4j trip and even charging the same $400 for the<BR>
> entire trip seems reasonable given the shorter travel time.<BR>
<BR>
SNIP<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
My real world example from Canada.  It cost me the same to fly the half hour<BR>
flight from<BR>
Toronto(major city) - Ottawa(major city and national capital), than to fly the<BR>
7-8 hours<BR>
from Toronto to the UK or Western Europe.  Between CDN$300 and CDN$400, but I<BR>
have<BR>
seen some CDN$260 return fares to the UK this week.<BR>
<BR>
The obvious difference is the equipment 737 (lead sled) for the Toronto to Ottawa<BR>
flight<BR>
and an L1011 for the Euro trip.<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:12:04 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
<BR>
TDRandall@aol.com writes:<BR>
> Can anyone on the list make sense of the interstellar travel costs with a <BR>
> nice real-world example?  Essentially the rule is that no matter how far<BR>
> the  jump is, a passenger/freight is charged the same amount because it is<BR>
> one  jump.  Is it just for convenience of calculation?<BR>
<BR>
Yes.  GT:Far Trader has the most realistic economic system of any traveller<BR>
version, and changed that rule.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:12:13 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: HELP! Tracking ship movements in a system<BR>
<BR>
Fellow sophonts,<BR>
<BR>
I recently ran an adventure in which the PCs were<BR>
messing with a planet-side installation in the<BR>
outer system and I needed to keep up with a ship<BR>
approaching their location.<BR>
<BR>
Not having done this for the better part of 15 years,<BR>
I butchered it royally. Fortunately, I have a very<BR>
forgiving group of players but it was exceedingly<BR>
annoying for me.<BR>
<BR>
Vector math is definitely not my forte. Has anyone created<BR>
a software tool for computing and tracking the constant<BR>
movement and positions of ships within a star system?<BR>
Regardless of how it's done, I need it to be *fast*.<BR>
That is, I plug in the numbers only once rather than<BR>
messing with a calculator every 5 minutes.<BR>
<BR>
I have Excel 97 installed on my Traveller laptop, if<BR>
anyone has a pre-built spreadsheet. Regardless, I'd<BR>
appreciate any help/advice.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:14:56 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?  <BR>
<BR>
The only way passenger ticket costs make sense in Traveller is<BR>
if we assume that the listed prices are under some sort of<BR>
constraint, beyond those immediately evident (cost vs convenience).<BR>
<BR>
If my Jump-2 ship is in port, and a Jump-1 ship is in port as well,<BR>
it is obvious that I'll get to a Jump-2 destination in half the time,<BR>
with a somewhat higher operating cost.  Thus the Jump-2 ticket <BR>
should cost more than at least one Jump-1 ticket, perhaps even<BR>
more than two of them...<BR>
<BR>
Some possible constraints:<BR>
<BR>
1. Imperial regulations on maximum passage fees, at least on smaller<BR>
vessels like PC's commonly use or ride on.  They may have done this<BR>
in response to massive passage fees charged by "the only Free Trader<BR>
to stop by a frontier world in a month, so pay us everything or never<BR>
get off this rock" situations.  Larger liners would probably not <BR>
be bound by the same set of regulations, but might also charge a lot<BR>
more (since the amenities are likely to be significantly more<BR>
elaborate).  <BR>
<BR>
2. The presence of such liners could also serve as a limiter, since a <BR>
Far Trader that tried to raise the prices might see the passengers head <BR>
for the better-appointed liner instead.<BR>
<BR>
3. Mindset of people who travel between the stars.  It already takes<BR>
a week, what's another?  The Jump-2 ship should get an advantage<BR>
in getting first dibs on what might be a limited amount of<BR>
available passengers due to the convenience issue, but if the<BR>
Jump-2 ship tries to charge more the passengers will shrug and<BR>
go to the Jump-1 ship in the next berth.<BR>
<BR>
4. An in-game simplification that the GM is pretty much honor-bound<BR>
to change if it rankles him or his players. <G><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:27:27 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character design<BR>
<BR>
Doug Berry writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Also Peter, what happens is this PC Spouse *fails the appearance roll?*<BR>
>Does the DM tell Sue to go home that night?<BR>
<BR>
Good one, Doug! ;-D<BR>
 <BR>
>Peter, please explain to me what happens when half the party fails their<BR>
>mutual appearance rolls.<BR>
 <BR>
Even better, what happens when Bob makes his 'Sue appears' roll and Sue<BR>
simultaneously falis her 'Bob appears' roll?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"...all at once I UNDERSTOOD just WHY it is that men FIGHT each other.<BR>
I suddenly saw the ANSWER to all this SENSELESS VIOLENCE that afflicts us!<BR>
<BR>
But, like, I didn't write it down or anything and, like, y'know how it is -<BR>
next morning I had totally forgotten what it WAS, man."<BR>
<BR>
			"DR and Quinch get drafted" from _2000 AD_<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:41:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?  <BR>
<BR>
On Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:14 AM<BR>
Smith, Walter said,<BR>
<BR>
> If my Jump-2 ship is in port, and a Jump-1 ship is in port as well,<BR>
> it is obvious that I'll get to a Jump-2 destination in half the time,<BR>
> with a somewhat higher operating cost.  Thus the Jump-2 ticket<BR>
> should cost more than at least one Jump-1 ticket, perhaps even<BR>
> more than two of them...<BR>
<BR>
Why higher operating costs?  The jump 2 ship and the jump 1 ship should<BR>
spend the same amount of fuel, given the same hull displacement, at 20%.<BR>
The Jump 2 ship having the shorter travel time should have lower costs in<BR>
life support, crew salaries, and maintenance fraction.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
Thing under the stairs,<BR>
Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
===========================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:03:11 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?  <BR>
<BR>
Thing writes:<BR>
> Why higher operating costs?<BR>
Higher cost per jump, not higher cost per unit distance.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:18:35 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2601<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com> [wrote]<BR>
> <BR>
> > Additionally, in a M-F-M situation, it would seem reasonable for one or <BR>
> > both of the males to seek additional partners, depending on how much <BR>
> > attention each individual happens to need ("she's got two lovers, why <BR>
> > do each of us get only one?"). <BR>
> <BR>
> There is a rather obvious solution to this question<BR>
> <BR>
> M1[1] + F + M2 can yield M1 + F, F + M2 and M1 + M2<BR>
> and even M1 + F + M2.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, that's an obvious solution, and that's why I wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Having both males like each other a lot would help, I suppose, sexually <BR>
> or not. <BR>
<BR>
...in the first place.<BR>
<BR>
- -RB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:29:47 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2602<BR>
<BR>
Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
> The reason is that a piece of complex code can be represented by a small<BR>
> number of intermediate code symbols for the interpreter, which can then be<BR>
> read, understood, and acted on by the interpreter faster than the equivalent<BR>
> compiled code can be read and acted on by the underlying processor.<BR>
<BR>
Ah, I see. That's kind of a specious argument IMO. It relies on the <BR>
interpreted language having a good set of "primitives" or library <BR>
functions which are themselves written to run very fast. <BR>
<BR>
Reductio ad absurdum:<BR>
<BR>
If you have an interpreted language with an intrinsic function <BR>
"quicksort", and the qsort library function is written in reasonably <BR>
tight assembly language, then yes, sorting a large block of data is <BR>
going to be faster than writing the equivalent program in C and using <BR>
the standard C library qsort; the standard C library is traditionally <BR>
written in C itself. <BR>
<BR>
This isn't a faster _language_, it's a faster _library_. <BR>
<BR>
- -RB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:55:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Transparent Overlays<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/13/00 1:05 PM, eris@pcola.gulf.net issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> The idea of the Chessex battlemaps *is* a neat one, too.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I have a tan one, and love it, I was unaware they made a clear one.<BR>
Anybody on this list have one of those clear ones? How do you like it? My<BR>
tan one has a fabric backing, the clear one must not, eh? How thick is it,<BR>
does it glare at all? Are the hexes numbered, and if so, with what system?<BR>
Chessex has a site, don't they? I'm of to search.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:52:52 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
At 10:08 -0400 14/6/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>And that square grid has always bugged me, since it makes movement in<BR>
>combat needlessly complex.  Hexes rule!  (Ah, Craig trained me well...)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hexes. ACQ. Thoughts? Notes? I think the existing rules should work <BR>
okay with them.... probably with no modifications...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:30:25 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Mayday PDF at all?!<BR>
<BR>
At 19:23 -0400 13/6/00, Glenn Myers wrote:<BR>
>The best 66k I've ever downloaded.<BR>
><BR>
>Dom, any development in a final release version?<BR>
<BR>
To my knowledge, nothing has been done on this since I compiled this copy.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, Sean posted the draft rules to the HIWG TWG list (back in <BR>
the T4 days when it was active), and some time later I asked him if <BR>
he would like to see on the BITS site, as it kind of disappeared <BR>
without a trace. I liked the idea of it a lot. He agreed, said he had <BR>
integrated the DSR (thanks to Bruce for letting us use it) and I <BR>
created the PDF.<BR>
<BR>
To be honest, we've had very little feedback on it apart from the odd <BR>
mention at sfconsim-l and here on TML. Certainly no feedback on it. <BR>
We did discuss printing it at one point, but thought that (1) it may <BR>
tread on Marc's toes for T4.1/T5 and (2) there would be limited <BR>
demand. I'd be curious to know what you thought was missing or could <BR>
be improved, and if there was a demand for a printed version rather <BR>
than a freely available PDF.<BR>
<BR>
BTW if anyone wants quick and dirty T4 ships, you can either use QSDS <BR>
(Rob Prior's software for the Mac) or the HG conversion rules <BR>
developed by Rob Eaglestone (at my site <BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:45:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/13/00 9:43 PM, semo@pil.net issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I know that there's a<BR>
> company out there right now working on fiber optic tattoos.<BR>
<BR>
Do you have a link or more info? Didn't Niven have holographic tattoos in<BR>
Ringworld etc.?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2604<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 14 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2605<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
Re: AuricTech _Kingfish_ class Commerce <BR>
RE: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design) <BR>
RE: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
RE: PC Fratricide<BR>
Re: The Rebellion. Why did it Happen?<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2604<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
Re: Starship quirks<BR>
RE: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
RE: Tracking ship movements in a system<BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
RE: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Duck Dogers (Way OT)<BR>
GT: Semi-permanent External Tanks (was Drop Tanks)<BR>
101 Social Structures (was: gender differences/social structure)<BR>
RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core <BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
RE: Starship quirks<BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?  <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:54:15 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
<see Douglas E. Berry's previous and entertaining e-mail for snipped text><BR>
<BR>
Cheryl wrote:<BR>
>....Ah, the hidden agendas! This sounds exactly like one of our group's<BR>
>games. Although as players we use great discretion before actually trying to<BR>
>kill another PC. Sometimes the PC has gone on to make us wish we had killed<BR>
>them when we were provoked.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah.<BR>
<BR>
>But it's bad for party unity (and player's feelings) to kill one <BR>
>another. Besides the GM does enough damage to ourparties - he <BR>
>doesn't need help.<BR>
<BR>
Do NOT help the GM.  Please.<BR>
<BR>
>Do other group routinely have PC's killing each other off?<BR>
<BR>
I was in a game (non-Trav) once, years ago, where one of the <BR>
characters was incredibly irritating and the rest of us had to <BR>
excercise great restraint in not killing him off.  The final straw <BR>
came when the GM, in the middle of a major fight with the bad guys, <BR>
tried to miraculously save the hated character after the player <BR>
screwed up.  The rest of us informed the GM that if he did that, WE <BR>
were going to kill the character, or leave.  No miracle occurred, and <BR>
no one was throttled. Then again, the GM wasn't anywhere near as good <BR>
as our current one, the Evil Tod.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:00:59 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: AuricTech _Kingfish_ class Commerce <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>>[from John Groth]<BR>
>>Of course, this _does_ mean that one of the early ships <BR>
>>of the _Kingfish_ class will be named _Ragin' Cajuns_....<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Just as long as you don't name one after the Mighty Ducks<BR>
>of Anaheim.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, you should name one after the Banana<BR>
Slugs of UC Santa Cruz (and my alma mater's team was once<BR>
known as the Little Quakers (not a good thing to call a 220<BR>
pound linebacker), and our cheer was "Kill, Quakers, Kill!"<BR>
which somehow upset some of the alumni and faculty, but<BR>
then they changed the name to Garnet).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:15:12 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design) <BR>
<BR>
Cheryl wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>....Ah, the hidden agendas! This sounds exactly like one of our group's<BR>
>games. Although as players we use great discretion before actually trying<BR>
to<BR>
>kill another PC. Sometimes the PC has gone on to make us wish we had killed<BR>
>them when we were provoked. But it's bad for party unity (and player's<BR>
>feelings) to kill one another. Besides the GM does enough damage to our<BR>
>parties - he doesn't need help.<BR>
><BR>
>Do other group routinely have PC's killing each other off?<BR>
<BR>
As a GM I try to keep my players away from open warfare on each other. I'm<BR>
the GM, but I'm a player too. When I run a game I spend a lot of time each<BR>
week working on the upcoming session. I tend to get rather unpleasant when I<BR>
become a rules arbiter for an explosion of silliness which will lead to the<BR>
end of the campaign or a lull in the activity as the players generate new<BR>
characters.<BR>
<BR>
In some ways I'm lucky though. My group is extremely well behaved compared<BR>
to other gaming groups I've been in.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:15:13 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks") <BR>
<BR>
>While I don't have to get the last word in perhaps we should<BR>
>wrap up this discussion fairly soon as it is apparent we are <BR>
>unlikely to reach a consensus.<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough, Peter.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:17:19 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: PC Fratricide<BR>
<BR>
Cheryl writes:<BR>
>....Ah, the hidden agendas! This sounds exactly like one of our group's<BR>
>games. Although as players we use great discretion before actually trying to<BR>
>kill another PC. Sometimes the PC has gone on to make us wish we had killed<BR>
>them when we were provoked. But it's bad for party unity (and player's<BR>
>feelings) to kill one another. Besides the GM does enough damage to our<BR>
>parties - he doesn't need help.<BR>
>Do other group routinely have PC's killing each other off?<BR>
<BR>
	Nope.  In certain scenarios, I might set up situations in which a<BR>
	PC may consider PC-icide, but I avoid such situations in campaigns.<BR>
	For one thing, it's no fun for the dead PC (though, of course, they<BR>
	might have been killed by a NPC anyways).  Depending on the group, it<BR>
	can foster bad feelings.  However, the most important reason that I<BR>
	generally x-nay an 'evil' character in a 'good' party is that the<BR>
	party doesn't really have a choice about including the bad guy.  The<BR>
	PCs can decide whether or not to hire/join with a NPC, but the PC is<BR>
	automatically in.  If the scenario involves characters forced together<BR>
	and the players are told that their PCs do not know the other PCs, for<BR>
	example, then I would not rule out having one (or more) PCs with<BR>
	contrary agendas.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:21:40 +0100<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: The Rebellion. Why did it Happen?<BR>
<BR>
Dan Lane <danielrlane@home.com> wrote,<BR>
>Why did the Rebellion happen in MT?  Was it really feasible that it could<BR>
>have happened as described?<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>It just has always seemed to me that the Imperium of 1107 (pre 5FFW) was<BR>
>quite stable (in the Marches at least) but by 1116, mysteriously, the<BR>
>aforementioned factors had somehow transformed the Imperium into a bomb<BR>
>ready to explode.  <BR>
<BR>
I think the key phrase there is "stable (in the Marches at least)". That<BR>
sector was a *long* way from the centre of Imperial power, and the<BR>
character of the region was quite different. The SM had never been part<BR>
of the Ziru Sirka; it saw itself as the new territory, the frontier,<BR>
striving to live up to the Imperial ideal. The regions "within the claw"<BR>
(to coin a phrase) were complacent, concentrating on political wheeler-<BR>
dealing. The Imperial ideal was just there in the background, part of<BR>
the furniture; nobody paid it much attention, until it was gone.<BR>
<BR>
Note that the only regions to try to keep aloof from the infighting of<BR>
the Rebellion were frontiers - the Domain of Deneb (under a Marcher<BR>
Archduke) and Daibei. The Domain was the more successful because it was<BR>
out of the way behind the claw.<BR>
<BR>
>What did Dulinor know and want to achieve.  Did he have<BR>
>higher goals than simply seeing himself on the Iridium Throne?  Was he in a<BR>
>sense a patriot who truly wanted a better Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
In a campaign with a tragic Lucan (I love that interpretation, btw),<BR>
Dulinor could certainly be played as a misguided reformer who saw no<BR>
other way.<BR>
<BR>
Must dash,<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
 <BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) tg+ ru ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:18:49 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2604<BR>
<BR>
Cheryl wrote:<BR>
> Do other group routinely have PC's killing each other off?<BR>
<BR>
Is this a good time to trot out the "Head of Vecna" story?<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:22:35 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I know that there's a<BR>
>> company out there right now working on fiber optic tattoos.<BR>
><BR>
>Do you have a link or more info? Didn't Niven have holographic tattoos in<BR>
>Ringworld etc.?<BR>
<BR>
Whoops, I was wrong. The company isn't working on fiber optic tattoos, they<BR>
are working on LCD tattoos. I was thinking of a company here in Philadelphia<BR>
who are incorporating fiber optics into clothing.<BR>
<BR>
This link will take you to an installment of "Patently Weird" on the ABC<BR>
news site. If you look at other installments, you might find some<BR>
interesting and bizarre devices for your Traveller universe:<BR>
<BR>
http://archive.abcnews.go.com/sections/business/patent_1008/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:36:59 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
<BR>
TDRandall@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> The best present day comparison I come up with is the airlines, and the<BR>
> scenario doesn't correlate.  I would never expect to pay the same to take the<BR>
> Concord straight from New York to Europe in mere hours as a pusher prop that<BR>
> has to fly in four legs and refuel at each stop.<BR>
<BR>
Alas, airline ticket pricing is an extraordinarily complex thing that<BR>
involves all sortds of different variables, some logical, some not.<BR>
<BR>
There were times when it cost more to fly from Tucson to Phoenix, than<BR>
it did to fly from Tucson to Los Angeles.<BR>
<BR>
Once my brother got a cheap flight from Chicago to New York...the lowest<BR>
cost flight took him through Dallas.<BR>
<BR>
Transatlantic flights are sometimes insanely cheap.<BR>
<BR>
There is no real-world comparison to Traveller pricing because Traveller<BR>
pricing bears little or no relation to what a real-world solution would<BR>
be, because Traveller pricing was set to an extremely oversimplistic<BR>
rule: 'One Jump costs X Cr' with no reference to what you're actually<BR>
getting.<BR>
<BR>
- - <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:35:03 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship quirks<BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
><BR>
>The better charecters are roleplayed the more they<BR>
>will behave like real people. The crew of a ship are often<BR>
>coworkers not a 'band of brothers'. As such they should<BR>
>frequently act pettily towards each other just like real <BR>
>coworkers often do. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
I agree completely.  Role-playing _among_ the PCs is a big<BR>
part of the payoff for me as referee.  When I was running a<BR>
game with some teen-aged PCs many years ago (I was the old<BR>
man in the group at 22), they tended to fly off the handle<BR>
and shoot each other, which was problematic and unrealistic<BR>
(they weren't playing heavily-armed teen-agers, after all).<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, personalities and even objectives often<BR>
conflict when people have to work with others under high<BR>
stress to achieve goals against active opposition.  (That's<BR>
what I do for a living, now that I think about it.)  The<BR>
dynamics of groups are very complex, and very enjoyable to<BR>
play out.  <BR>
<BR>
Having real consequences to role-playing makes the game<BR>
more like real life and more fun.  In the example that I've<BR>
deleted, the crew member knew the risk of being fired for<BR>
blowing up at the captain.  It's just like real life.  If<BR>
the boss is too cheap to provide coffee, there are<BR>
consequences for crew morale -- both PC and NPC crew.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:36:46 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
<BR>
Tony Randall writes:<BR>
>Can anyone on the list make sense of the interstellar travel costs with a <BR>
>nice real-world example?  Essentially the rule is that no matter how far the <BR>
>jump is, a passenger/freight is charged the same amount because it is one <BR>
>jump.  Is it just for convenience of calculation?<BR>
<BR>
	It is almost certainly for ease of calculation, but different people<BR>
	have come up with their own rationales.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Now, add in the room for other passengers/cargo (or lack thereof).  The <BR>
>operators of the ship should pay the same for fuel, assuming the same size <BR>
>ship.  It's just that the operators of the 1j ship can fill 4 times, the 2j <BR>
>ship twice, and the 4j ship has to do it before the trip.  All the jump fuel <BR>
>takes space, which reduces the remainder of billable space.  Assuming that <BR>
>the crews want to make the same amount of money, why wouldn't the longer<BR>
jump <BR>
>ships charge more?<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	The system that I have been playing with is as follows:<BR>
	The standard charges are for J1.  The more general formula is<BR>
<BR>
		charge = (0.5 x C) + (0.5 x C x J)<BR>
<BR>
	where C is the standard charge and J is the jump number.  Thus, cargo<BR>
	costs Cr 1000/ton for J1, Cr 1500/ton for J2, Cr 2000/ton for J3...<BR>
	This charge applies to each jump, though there may be a lowered rate<BR>
	for multiple jumps IF it involves a full (or nearly so) ship.<BR>
	It's not perfect, but it is simple and keeps my players happy (so<BR>
	far).<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:38:32 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Tracking ship movements in a system<BR>
<BR>
David Smart writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Vector math is definitely not my forte. Has anyone created<BR>
>a software tool for computing and tracking the constant<BR>
>movement and positions of ships within a star system?<BR>
>Regardless of how it's done, I need it to be *fast*.<BR>
>That is, I plug in the numbers only once rather than<BR>
>messing with a calculator every 5 minutes.<BR>
>I have Excel 97 installed on my Traveller laptop, if<BR>
>anyone has a pre-built spreadsheet. Regardless, I'd<BR>
>appreciate any help/advice.<BR>
<BR>
	I have an Excel spreadsheet that I use for such purposes,<BR>
	but it is not terribly sophisticated.  Contact me offlist<BR>
	if you want a copy.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:47:59 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
>What about when the computerized litterbox spaces the<BR>
>ships cat? or is that a sign of virus infection?<BR>
<BR>
Spacing the ship's cat is not a bug; it's a feature.  <BR>
<BR>
Top Ten Reasons to Space the Ship's Cat:<BR>
10.  All ship's mice already killed (worked itself out of a<BR>
job).<BR>
9. Doyle's Eel infestation beyond cat's ability to<BR>
exterminate.<BR>
8. Cat is a disguised Hiver larva.<BR>
7. Cost of cat life support exceeds cat's profit generation<BR>
(likely cause: see #10).<BR>
6. Cat beat computer at 3-D chess.<BR>
5. Cat beat navigator at Jeopardy.<BR>
4. Caught stealing Roupian Kippers from the galley.<BR>
3. Cat hairs clogging air vents.<BR>
2. Noble passenger taken aboard who is allergic to cats.<BR>
and<BR>
1. Cat is losing target control at the litter box.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:52:26 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
<BR>
Thing writes:<BR>
Smith, Walter said,<BR>
>>If my Jump-2 ship is in port, and a Jump-1 ship is in port as well,<BR>
>>it is obvious that I'll get to a Jump-2 destination in half the time,<BR>
>>with a somewhat higher operating cost.  Thus the Jump-2 ticket<BR>
>>should cost more than at least one Jump-1 ticket, perhaps even<BR>
>>more than two of them...<BR>
>Why higher operating costs?  The jump 2 ship and the jump 1 ship should<BR>
>spend the same amount of fuel, given the same hull displacement, at 20%.<BR>
>The Jump 2 ship having the shorter travel time should have lower costs in<BR>
>life support, crew salaries, and maintenance fraction.<BR>
<BR>
	The J2 ship may have a larger crew (engineer requirements).  They<BR>
	will certainly have higher bank payments and annual maintenance<BR>
	costs, which must be factored into their monthly budget.  There is<BR>
	the 'cost' of having less income-generating tonnage, as the J1 ship<BR>
	may get away with smaller fuel tanks.  That being said, my limited<BR>
	mathematical experiments suggest that the higher income required by<BR>
	a J2 ship, combined with the ability to make the trip in half the<BR>
	time, should result in charges less than that for going 2 parsecs<BR>
	with a J1 ship.  What this would mean is that people/cargo rarely<BR>
	take a J1 ship to go 2 parsecs, unless they need to stop on the way.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:59:34 -0600<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. Cat is losing target control at the litter box.<BR>
<BR>
Well, if the cat-haters on the ship wouldn't keep the gravity off in the<BR>
room with the litter box, the cat would have a chance!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Erwin Fritz<BR>
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.<BR>
http://www.glja.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:27:08 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Duck Dogers (Way OT)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:36:06 -0400 (EDT), shadow@krypton.rain.com<BR>
(Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[Quoting me]<BR>
<BR>
>> A while back, during what was otherwise a nice quiet workday at<BR>
>> the precinct, there was a near-accident outside - one of those<BR>
>> situations where you hear screeching brakes, loud enough to hear<BR>
>> a block away (this was right outside the precinct house), and you<BR>
<BR>
>Aha! A member of the law enforcement community.<BR>
<BR>
>Tell us, Sir, what would *your* reaction to a typical bunch of<BR>
>Traveller PCs if you were the local law? <eg><BR>
<BR>
Local law (NYPD) wouldn't have to react.  SPA/New York Tri-Down<BR>
would do it for us.  If they were armed heavily enough to cause<BR>
the SPA (Port Authority Police Department) concern, I would bet<BR>
on a call not just for assistance, but specifically for the<BR>
Special Conditions unit.<BR>
<BR>
(Most units in the NYPD have relatively conventional-appearing<BR>
vehicles.  The typical vehicle that SpecCond uses looks more like<BR>
a tank than a truck, and their idea of minimal and non-lethal is<BR>
a high-pressure water cannon.)<BR>
<BR>
(It should be noted that while I _am_ by definition a member of<BR>
the law enforcement community, I am neither a LEO or a Peace<BR>
Officer.  I characterize myself as a REMF - strictly the kind of<BR>
stuff that private industry calls back-office stuff.)<BR>
<BR>
(Disclaimer: The New York City Police Department allows me to<BR>
have my own opinions.  Since they do, and I do, I don't post<BR>
theirs.  Besides, I pay for this account with my own money.)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:27:10 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: GT: Semi-permanent External Tanks (was Drop Tanks)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:31:19 -0400 (EDT), Dalton Spence<BR>
<dalton.spence@hwcn.org> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Ah yes, the great and glorious Drop Tank debates! If I understand<BR>
>correctly, this is an old and venerable Traveller tradition; when<BR>
>things are going a little slow, mention "Drop Tanks" and watch the<BR>
>flames rise high. At least in this discussion, nobody has complained<BR>
>(yet) "Why can't we feed the drive and drop the tank *before* we<BR>
>jump?" but that doesn't seem to have made much difference in the<BR>
>volume and bitterness of the arguments on <rec.games.frp.gurps>.<BR>
<BR>
First: My opinion of Ian Chapman - and in fact most of the<BR>
participants in that flamewar - is not for public dissemination.<BR>
Draw what conclusions you like from that.  If I were the<BR>
moderator of a moderated rgfg, I'd cancel the whole thread, and<BR>
scribble IMTU across it.<BR>
<BR>
Second: My impression is that canonically, that's exactly what<BR>
you did with drop tanks, at least in CT - you sucked up the fuel,<BR>
and kicked the damn things off _before_ you went into jump.  Am I<BR>
really up to the Z in Alzheimers?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:27:13 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: 101 Social Structures (was: gender differences/social structure)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:17:57 -0400 (EDT), Kiri Aradia Morgan<BR>
<tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Traveller *really* needs a "101 social structures" supplement. But we'd<BR>
>> need a semi-professional anthropologist to help with examples and make<BR>
>> sure we didn't screw up too badly with regards to "consequences" of any<BR>
>> structures that have historical analogs.<BR>
 <BR>
>That'd be a fun supplement to write.  Anyone else wanna?<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like something that the Traveller-Culture list might be a<BR>
good home for - anyone who wants to is welcome to come over and<BR>
drive our traffic up with some good useful material...<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:30:22 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core <BR>
<BR>
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
<BR>
>Even if the number is VERY low, you still see a certain <BR>
>number of powerful men with really dumb, but attractive<BR>
>female companions.  These women often have virtues other<BR>
>than looks or intelligence, such as nurturing<BR>
>personalities or sexual skill, but that's not enough for <BR>
>most women.<BR>
<BR>
This is very frustrating for dumb, attractive, nurturing,<BR>
and sexually skilled males like me.  We're not powerful<BR>
enough to attract d/a/n/ss females, so we have to go with<BR>
relatively powerful females, and they demand so much more<BR>
than we would demand in their shoes, and we have to work<BR>
really hard.  It's just unfair.<BR>
<BR>
- --Pickles Thirty-Fourth<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:32:37 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
<BR>
Moin Tony,<BR>
<BR>
> Can anyone on the list make sense of the interstellar travel costs with a <BR>
> nice real-world example?<BR>
<BR>
  you wont find a 'real world example' if you follow my economic handwaving.<BR>
<BR>
  The fixed prices for freight and passengers per jump are 'artifical'.<BR>
<BR>
  They are based on Vilani practice, later overthrown by the rule of man,<BR>
  and reinstalled by the Sylean Trade Federation. Artifical in this statement<BR>
  means that this price is not based on supply and demand, but fixed by<BR>
  the Imperial government.<BR>
<BR>
  More precise, not the price for freight is fixed, but vice versa, the<BR>
  imperial credit is backed by the freight capacity of imperial subsidary<BR>
  fleet, IMTU.<BR>
<BR>
  The difference in jump performance did'nt cause any problem to the vilani<BR>
  empire, where traders had been jump 1 and warships jumps 2. And it did'nt<BR>
  cause problems to the 3rd imperium. Most subsidary traders still follow<BR>
  the mains, only a few specific designes are jump 2 or jump 3 to connect<BR>
  the high pop worlds. Offering freight capacity of 1dt over a full jump,<BR>
  and not per parsec, for 1kCr, naturaly ruled the lower tech ship out of<BR>
  bussiness on those routes, increasing the strength of the Sylean Trade<BR>
  Federation.<BR>
<BR>
  Using my handwaving means that this prices are only fixed, if the the<BR>
  starport is connected to the network of imperial subsidary fleet. Free<BR>
  traders can make their own prices, but are unlikely to find any customers<BR>
  execpt in market niches. So Joe average free trader can only compete in<BR>
  routes where no imperial subsidary liner was ever seen, or if he offers<BR>
  special care and handling, subsidary fleet does'nt, or if he goes into<BR>
  the speculative trade.<BR>
<BR>
  Speculative trade needs a rule extension, IMTU. The cargo purchase price<BR>
  listed in the rules, is for typical low priced bulk cargo. If you think<BR>
  about 1dt of anagathics or 1dt of hightech weaponry, purchase price of<BR>
  cargo can be anything. But any cargo worth than the value given in the<BR>
  rules, is normaly not worse of transport, e.g. 1dt of water. Free traders<BR>
  who want to do speculative trade, should not touch those low priced bulk<BR>
  cargos already carried by subsidary fleet, but better search for more<BR>
  valuable things to trade.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:36:53 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
At 3:56 PM +0100 6/14/00, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
>But its also a commercial product.  If adaptability to  different<BR>
>editions of the game boosts sales then (from SJG's point of view)<BR>
>its a good thing.  And if adaptability to different  editions  of<BR>
>the game looses sales then (from SJG's point of view) its  a  bad<BR>
>thing.  That's the bottom line.  It comes down to GURPS  standard<BR>
>= more product for your buck Vs adaptability = larger market.  Or<BR>
>in other words breadth Vs depth.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
If it can be both without any problem, then it should be both.<BR>
If having both will detract from the use of hexes, then<BR>
it should be hexes.  It is a GURPS product and GURPS rules<BR>
are more centered around hexes than CT is around grids<BR>
(at least if you use the advanced combat rules where<BR>
character facing is an issue).<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:39:28 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship quirks<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>On the other hand, personalities and even objectives often<BR>
>conflict when people have to work with others under high<BR>
>stress to achieve goals against active opposition.  (That's<BR>
>what I do for a living, now that I think about it.)  The<BR>
>dynamics of groups are very complex, and very enjoyable to<BR>
>play out.<BR>
><BR>
>Having real consequences to role-playing makes the game<BR>
>more like real life and more fun.  In the example that I've<BR>
>deleted, the crew member knew the risk of being fired for<BR>
>blowing up at the captain.  It's just like real life.  If<BR>
>the boss is too cheap to provide coffee, there are<BR>
>consequences for crew morale -- both PC and NPC crew.<BR>
<BR>
I do think that tension within a group is a good thing, and I do think that<BR>
it increases the enjoyment all around. That sort of tension increases the<BR>
opportunities for the players to really get into their roles and have a good<BR>
time. However, I simply can't agree that there is a connection between "more<BR>
like real life" and "more fun". The problem is that a roleplaying game is<BR>
vastly different from real life, and that the real life consequences are<BR>
above and beyond in game considerations at all times.<BR>
<BR>
Before I go on, I'd better provide a disclaimer here. When I run a game, I<BR>
run a game for friends. These people are people who I choose to spend time<BR>
with. They are people that I see in the game and outside the game. Hell, to<BR>
be completely honest I see gaming as the prime excuse to get people I like<BR>
to spend time with together in one spot. That, and that alone, is the prime<BR>
excuse for roleplaying. In a world where everybody has conflicting work<BR>
schedules and many other things to do, sometimes roleplaying is the only way<BR>
to get a group of my friends in one place at one time. I will admit that I<BR>
tend to run games with low mortality rates, but this is in large part<BR>
because my players are usually not stupid. They know, for example, that I<BR>
run Traveller in a deadly fashion. I remind each of them of this every time<BR>
I run a Traveller game. As a direct result of that, they tend to put<BR>
themselves in front of loaded weapons less frequently and they come up with<BR>
elaborate plans and schemes.<BR>
<BR>
Still, I think that there are other ways to reward and penalize players than<BR>
letting their characters continue to exist or killing them off.<BR>
<BR>
With that being said, the consequences of the coffee scenario are not merely<BR>
just like real life consequences, but there are real life consequences which<BR>
must be taken into account. What you have after that example is a player who<BR>
is effectively dead for the purposes of the game. Perhaps the individual<BR>
characters can talk some sense into the captain and the character who has<BR>
been fired. If that happens, then play can resume. If that doesn't happen,<BR>
then play for that character is done.<BR>
<BR>
However, the player is still at the table, and unless play lulls to allow<BR>
the player to generate a new character to fill the old character's role then<BR>
the player is left with nothing to do. The real world consequence is, of<BR>
course, that the player will be left out of the proceedings from that point<BR>
on. The player will probably be a nuisance and a distraction, even in an<BR>
unintentional fashion. The player could go home, which may or may not be<BR>
possible. After all, sometimes players get rides from other players, or the<BR>
GM. If the environment that the players are in allows it, the player might<BR>
be able to go do something else until the session ends.<BR>
<BR>
So what you have is not just like real life with consequences which are like<BR>
real life, but something with real consequences in real life. In the coffee<BR>
scenario, what actually happens is that a player gets a real life penalty<BR>
for *good* roleplaying. That doesn't seem to be particularly enjoyable.<BR>
<BR>
For whatever it happens to be worth, please note that I'm not talking about<BR>
immature players who get pissed when something happens in a game and take it<BR>
out on other players or the GM in real life. I'm just talking about the<BR>
practical nature of the spot where real life and the game intersect. One<BR>
thing that has always interested me is that with the thousands of essays on<BR>
the problems inherent with roleplaying, from GM favoritism to unruly<BR>
players, I can only recall on article which addresses this aspect of the<BR>
roleplaying experience.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:07:34 -0400<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?  <BR>
<BR>
Thing wrote:<BR>
>Why higher operating costs?  The jump 2 ship and the <BR>
>jump 1 ship should spend the same amount of fuel, given <BR>
>the same hull displacement, at 20%.<BR>
>The Jump 2 ship having the shorter travel time should <BR>
>have lower costs in life support, crew salaries, and <BR>
>maintenance fraction.<BR>
<BR>
"Operating Costs" was probably the wrong term.  How<BR>
about "much lower profits"?<BR>
<BR>
The Jump-2 ship has a higher mortgage payment (jump-2<BR>
drives and a 1/bis computer), requires the same<BR>
crew.  Granted, they can make the trip in half the <BR>
time and so will be able to make twice as many trips,<BR>
but each trip will have a *much* lower cargo load<BR>
than a Jump-1 Free Trader. <BR>
<BR>
The Jump-1 Free Trader gets to refuel at the halfway<BR>
point.  The Jump-2 Far Trader can't, so has to carry<BR>
all the fuel at one go.  The Jump-1 Free Trader will <BR>
probably do some profitable trading at that halfway <BR>
point as well, unless it's an uninhabited rock, so the <BR>
Free Trader gets as many trading opportunities as the <BR>
Far Trader will.  With so much more of the hull <BR>
dedicated to profit-making cargo hold, the Free Trader <BR>
makes more money.<BR>
<BR>
Those 22 to 32 (depending on ship design system) dtns <BR>
of extra fuel needed to support twice the jump drive <BR>
and twice the power plant - not to mention the extra <BR>
drives that needs to be carried - wreck the Far Trader <BR>
as a profit machine, *unless* it can make profit <BR>
specifically on being a Jump-2 platform.  There are<BR>
breaks in the mains where a Jump-1 Free Trader<BR>
can't go, and having 18 possible destinations to choose<BR>
from instead of 6 can really improve your chances<BR>
at the speculative trade market.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2605<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2606</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 14 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2606<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: 101 Social Structures (was: gender differences/social structure)<BR>
Re: Starship Quirks<BR>
RE: Starship Quirks<BR>
Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
re:  The Rebellion.  Why did it Happen?<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
>> Nudity and frying bacon. *ouch*><BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure <BR>
Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Re: Men & Women OT: ( was Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core)<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
body mods<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:30:32 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 101 Social Structures (was: gender differences/social structure)<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:17:57 -0400 (EDT), Kiri Aradia Morgan<BR>
> <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> Traveller *really* needs a "101 social structures" supplement. But we'd<BR>
> >> need a semi-professional anthropologist to help with examples and make<BR>
> >> sure we didn't screw up too badly with regards to "consequences" of any<BR>
> >> structures that have historical analogs.<BR>
> <BR>
> >That'd be a fun supplement to write.  Anyone else wanna?<BR>
> <BR>
> Sounds like something that the Traveller-Culture list might be a<BR>
> good home for - anyone who wants to is welcome to come over and<BR>
> drive our traffic up with some good useful material...<BR>
<BR>
Well, since I got my sociology professor to sign off on using work on<BR>
this project as my research paper, I'll do lots of work on it.<BR>
<BR>
How do I subscribe to the Traveller Culture list?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:30:47 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Quirks<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>> Picture a Hiver or a K'kree trying to figure out a bidet for the first<BR>
>> time. :-)<BR>
><BR>
>If it's a hiver, 'how thoughtful of these humans to provide a drinking<BR>
>fountain'.  Some things are best not considered.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
See the bathroom scene in "The Visitors".   Yes it is indeed French but the<BR>
scene is still amazingly funny even with subtitles.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:32:41 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship Quirks<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
<BR>
>	If it were retrofitted for non-humanoid aliens, <BR>
>things could be even more fun.  >:-)<BR>
<BR>
"Bad news, captain.  The ship we've commandeered was last<BR>
owned by a Droyne oytrip, and they've retrofitted<BR>
everything to their own specifications."<BR>
<BR>
"Including the freshers?"<BR>
<BR>
"Afraid so, sir."<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:30:04 -0000<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core<BR>
<BR>
Grover Cleveland through his first term. He got married in his second term<BR>
(he was the only president to have non-sequential terms) to a woman that was<BR>
30 some years his junior. Caused a huge scandal.<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 1:34 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On 06/13/00 at 03:27 PM,  Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
said:<BR>
><BR>
> >> I guess the thing that bothers me about it is just the assumption that<BR>
she<BR>
> >> would have been married.  We don't tend to make these assumptions about<BR>
> >> men.<BR>
><BR>
> >Aren't our contemporary and historical examples of royalty generally<BR>
> >expected and pressured to marry? How many US Presidents have been<BR>
> >unmarried?<BR>
><BR>
> James Buchanan, 1857-1861, I think that's it.<BR>
><BR>
> Eris<BR>
> --<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:38:57 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
<BR>
>The Bureaux derived _their_ legitimacy from the fact that <BR>
>it was _their_ ships, _their_ factories, _their_ trade <BR>
>routes, _their_ commerce to rule. They had eliminated the <BR>
>competition.-<BR>
<BR>
Le plus a change, le plus a reste le mme, non?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:51:49 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  The Rebellion.  Why did it Happen?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
<BR>
1.) It was just a bad dream, Dan.  Go back to sleep.<BR>
<BR>
2.) I don't know where this idea of extreme stability in<BR>
the pre-1116 Imperium comes from -- other than Imperial<BR>
propaganda.  The Imperium certainly wanted to depict itself<BR>
as having the stability of the 10,000 year empire of which<BR>
it claimed to be the continuation.  <BR>
<BR>
Nevertheless, even early canon notes substantial strife and<BR>
sources of strife in the Imperium, such as the uneasy<BR>
mutual cohabitation of Vilani and Solomani, the even more<BR>
uneasy mutual cohabitation of humans with other sophonts,<BR>
the difficult states of peace and war with the neighbors on<BR>
all sides, and the presence of revolutionary movements<BR>
within (the Ine Givar were the only ones given a name in<BR>
the early works, but there are references to letting the<BR>
characters be anything, including revolutionaries seeking<BR>
to overthrow the Imperium).  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:21:34 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>Legate Legion you wrote:<BR>
>>    All governments can trace their foundation to the<BR>
>>biggest & badest mofo out there.  The Current English <BR>
>>Queen can trace her government back to William the <BR>
>>Conquer.  And, what did William do to gain his crown, <BR>
>>invade & take over England.<BR>
><BR>
>Except of course, for our country, which wasn't that big<BR>
>or bad, <BR>
<BR>
While many governments may be traced back to rule by the<BR>
biggest and baddest, many others cannot.  All governments<BR>
require the consent of the governed.  Some get that consent<BR>
by intimidation (many dictatorships), some by appeal to a<BR>
sense of correctness or propriety (e.g., theocracies and<BR>
monarchies), some by appeal to fairness (like a democratic<BR>
government), some by embedded corruption with many<BR>
opportunities for participation at all levels (see<BR>
intimidation).  There are real world examples of each of<BR>
these.  <BR>
<BR>
The rhetoric changes over time, too.  After conquest, a new<BR>
leader typically seeks the support of the governed, for the<BR>
pragmatic reason that it's easier to stay in power when the<BR>
people he's ruling aren't constantly angry at an occupying<BR>
army.  William the Conqueror and the English monarchs who<BR>
followed him are good examples of this principle.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:41:00 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
<BR>
> From: TDRandall@aol.com<BR>
> Subject: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
><BR>
> Can anyone on the list make sense of the interstellar travel costs with a<BR>
> nice real-world example?  Essentially the rule is that no matter how far<BR>
the<BR>
> jump is, a passenger/freight is charged the same amount because it is one<BR>
> jump.  Is it just for convenience of calculation?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Yep. And it is completely, totally FUBAR.<BR>
<BR>
But fortunately, it got fixed in GT:Far Trader.<BR>
<BR>
<stuff snipped><BR>
<BR>
> BTW - I happen to be going through the TNE rulebook at the moment, but I<BR>
> expect the other editions do the same thing.<BR>
<BR>
Yep. That incredibly broken freight rules is in all of em. If you dont use<BR>
GT FT, a decent freight rate is Cr 250 + (Cr500 per parsec), plus risk<BR>
premiums as appropriate (eg double fare to take something out to some lonely<BR>
moon, well outside the range of the starport's PAWs and fighters ... ).<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:05:52 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
<BR>
> From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
> Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
>   The fixed prices for freight and passengers per jump are 'artifical'.<BR>
><BR>
>   They are based on Vilani practice, later overthrown by the rule of man,<BR>
>   and reinstalled by the Sylean Trade Federation. Artifical in this<BR>
statement<BR>
>   means that this price is not based on supply and demand, but fixed by<BR>
>   the Imperial government.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
This isnt going to work. What you do is have the shipper enter into two<BR>
contracts - one to buy the cargo from the customer at <price>, and the<BR>
second to sell to the customer at the destination world at <price plus<BR>
shipping cost>. This way, according to the paperwork, the cargo is owned by<BR>
the shipper for the duration, and is thus speculative cargo, not freight, so<BR>
the freight laws do not apply.<BR>
<BR>
>   The difference in jump performance did'nt cause any problem to the<BR>
vilani<BR>
>   empire, where traders had been jump 1 and warships jumps 2. And it<BR>
did'nt<BR>
>   cause problems to the 3rd imperium. Most subsidary traders still follow<BR>
>   the mains, only a few specific designes are jump 2 or jump 3 to connect<BR>
>   the high pop worlds. Offering freight capacity of 1dt over a full jump,<BR>
>   and not per parsec, for 1kCr, naturaly ruled the lower tech ship out of<BR>
>   bussiness on those routes, increasing the strength of the Sylean Trade<BR>
>   Federation.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that the vast majority of the Imperial economy is on the<BR>
hi-pop worlds. Thus, the vast majority of Imperial trade is between these<BR>
hi-pop worlds. The mains are merely incidental.<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
> Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
><BR>
> The Jump-1 Free Trader gets to refuel at the halfway<BR>
> point.  The Jump-2 Far Trader can't, so has to carry<BR>
> all the fuel at one go.  The Jump-1 Free Trader will<BR>
> probably do some profitable trading at that halfway<BR>
> point as well, unless it's an uninhabited rock, so the<BR>
> Free Trader gets as many trading opportunities as the<BR>
> Far Trader will.  With so much more of the hull<BR>
> dedicated to profit-making cargo hold, the Free Trader<BR>
> makes more money.<BR>
<BR>
Imagine two hi-pop worlds four parsecs apart. The jump-1 trader takes forty<BR>
days to do this run (4 jumps, plus three days transit per world at four<BR>
worlds to get to the refuelling point, refuel and back out to the 100<BR>
diameter limit). The jump-2 trader takes twenty days (2 jumps, plus three<BR>
days transit at two worlds).<BR>
<BR>
Thus, the jump-2 trader makes twice as many runs in a year. This more than<BR>
covers the extra costs of the jump-2 trader.<BR>
<BR>
Jump-1 traders are, generally speaking, only viable to do certain specific<BR>
runs, and to do in-system coasting (for example, resupplying that mining<BR>
station on one of Saturn's moons).<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:37:03 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: >> Nudity and frying bacon. *ouch*><BR>
<BR>
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: Various forms of body modification are explored in<BR>
>the real world, especially in the last decade (maybe two <BR>
>now) as a result of the various facets of what can loosely<BR>
<BR>
>be called the "neo-tribalism" movement.  Body-piercing,<BR>
>tattoing and scarification are the common forms today.<BR>
What<BR>
>new technologies might appear in body modification? <BR>
<BR>
I read once in some Traveller thing (Traveller Chronicle?<BR>
Travellers' Digest? somewhere like that) about some<BR>
passengers on a ship who were from a society where it was<BR>
considered dirty to have a body.  They would replace their<BR>
bodies, except their heads, with shiny steel robotics,<BR>
wired into their nervous systems.  For fun, they liked to<BR>
throw each other around, because they were very strong and<BR>
very hard to damage.  It seems to me that they would<BR>
replace as much of their bodies as they (or their families)<BR>
could afford, starting at an early age.  <BR>
<BR>
That struck me as really extremely weirdly alien, which was<BR>
the point of the exercise for the writer (as explained in<BR>
the accompanying notes).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:44:48 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure <BR>
<BR>
"Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > M1[1] + F + M2 can yield M1 + F, F + M2 and M1 + M2<BR>
> > and even M1 + F + M2.<BR>
<BR>
> So how many eV does this reaction produce, and does it require deutritium-<BR>
> tritum or just straight hydrogen? <g><BR>
<BR>
I don't think that some of these relationships would work<BR>
out if the 'hydrogen' in question were straight....<BR>
Hence it probably requires 'hydrogen' in its rarer sexual<BR>
orientations: deuterium and or tritium.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:50:34 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
> > > Aren't our contemporary and historical examples of royalty generally<BR>
> > > expected and pressured to marry? How many US Presidents have been<BR>
> > > unmarried?<BR>
<BR>
> > In many cases marriage is still seen as a demonstration<BR>
> > of heterosexuality. [1] Hence much pressure to marry can be<BR>
> > seen as a pressure to evince hetero-normative behavior.<BR>
<BR>
> I don't think that the heterosexual aspect enters into it at all. Marriage<BR>
> is seen as a willingness to make commitments and stick by them and to enter<BR>
> into an arrangement requiring a demonstration of integrity and<BR>
> determination. A married leader is seen as stable, secure, and supportive.<BR>
<BR>
But a leader who was 'married' to another man would probably <BR>
not be 'seen as stable, secure, and supportive', hence the<BR>
expectations are heteronormative.<BR>
<BR>
> > > A huge portion of our society expects people of status to get married.<BR>
> > > It is definitely more respectable for men to remain unmarried:<BR>
<BR>
> > I disagree with that assessment. It is not more respectable<BR>
> > to remain unmarried, this is why "confirmed bachelor" is<BR>
> > a euphemism for "flaming homosexual" [2]<BR>
<BR>
> I disagree with _that_ assessment. A confirmed bachelor, like JFK Jr., is<BR>
> seen as a party animal: wild and reckless. Not someone you'd want leading a<BR>
> country.<BR>
<BR>
Being a bachelor is only acceptable until about age 30 or 35.<BR>
This is about when the tabloids started running the when "When<BR>
will he get married?" stories about JFK Jr. Shortly after this<BR>
point he got married. And shortly after that he emulated Uncle<BR>
Teddy in dragging a young woman to a watery grave but in his<BR>
case had the poor taste to accompany her....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:01:38 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
> <BR>
> > Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > > M1[1] + F + M2 can yield M1 + F, F + M2 and M1 + M2<BR>
> > > and even M1 + F + M2.<BR>
> <BR>
> > So how many eV does this reaction produce, and does it require deutritium-<BR>
> > tritum or just straight hydrogen? <g><BR>
> <BR>
> I don't think that some of these relationships would work<BR>
> out if the 'hydrogen' in question were straight....<BR>
> Hence it probably requires 'hydrogen' in its rarer sexual<BR>
> orientations: deuterium and or tritium.<BR>
<BR>
In answer to the eV question, there are too many variables to provide a<BR>
single definitive answer.  However, I think that it's safe to say that,<BR>
one way or another, sparks would fly.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:05:34 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
> <BR>
> > Additionally, in a M-F-M situation, it would seem reasonable for one or<BR>
> > both of the males to seek additional partners, depending on how much<BR>
> > attention each individual happens to need ("she's got two lovers, why<BR>
> > do each of us get only one?").<BR>
> <BR>
> There is a rather obvious solution to this question<BR>
> <BR>
> M1[1] + F + M2 can yield M1 + F, F + M2 and M1 + M2<BR>
> and even M1 + F + M2.<BR>
> <BR>
> [1] No not M1 the money supply<BR>
<BR>
Although the money supply of M1, M2, and F will likely influence the<BR>
interactions between the three, depending on the relation between the<BR>
various money supplies....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:47:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Men & Women OT: ( was Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> A huge portion of our society expects people of status to get married. <BR>
>> It is definitely more respectable for men to remain unmarried:<BR>
><BR>
> I disagree with that assessment. It is not more respectable<BR>
> to remain unmarried, this is why "confirmed bachelor" is<BR>
> a euphemism for "flaming homosexual" [2]<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, I *strongly* disagree. It's far more apt to be a euphemism for<BR>
"playboy" (but without the money).<BR>
<BR>
> [2] Not that there's anything wrong with that....<BR>
<BR>
I prefer my gay men to not be flaming. The smokestains are *impossible*<BR>
to get out, and the scorch marks are a pain too.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:53:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
In mail sneadj@mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>>> Insecurity.  Men are socialized that they have to compete all the<BR>
>>>> time.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> And it not only didn't take on some of us, it led to a lot of<BR>
>>> unnecessary trauma. :-(<BR>
>>> <BR>
>> I know.<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> Hopefully society will "grow up" a bit in the next few thousand<BR>
>>> years and accept the idea that some people aren't wired that way<BR>
>>> *regardless* of sex.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I agree, however a lot of damage has also been done by<BR>
>> overenthusiastic persons who have tried to force boys NOT to be<BR>
>> competitive and girls NOT to be retiring when this happens to be that<BR>
>> person's general nature.  It is probably true that most men are<BR>
>> somewhat more aggressive and competitive than most women.  If it<BR>
>> weren't, our society wouldn't have evolved in the way that it has. <BR>
>> The point of civilization, however, is to recognize that not everyone<BR>
>> fits into a mold and to make room for those who do things differently,<BR>
>> provided no one else is harmed by it.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually (donning my anthropologist hat here) just about every trait <BR>
> like competitiveness and aggression can be fairly easily proven to <BR>
> be dependent upon culture.  The influence that the culture that you <BR>
> are raised in has upon you is vastly underrated in the modern day, <BR>
> just as the impact of biology upon our behavior patterns is IMHO <BR>
> vastly overrated now. <BR>
<BR>
Yay! An anthropologist!<BR>
<BR>
> One trivial example:  Try to pickup a living, white,  squirming beetle <BR>
> grub or termite larva and eat it, while it is still alive. Most <BR>
> Westerners will be unable to do so, and many of those that <BR>
> manage to do so will become physically ill. In some cultures such <BR>
> things are delicacies.  If such one person's taste treat is almost <BR>
> literally impossible to eat to another person,  consider how else <BR>
> culture shapes us.<BR>
<BR>
I *think* I could do that, but it'd be an effort...<BR>
<BR>
> Repeating a crucial statement you made again:<BR>
><BR>
>> It is probably true that most men are somewhat more aggressive <BR>
>> and competitive than most women.  If it weren't, our society <BR>
>> wouldn't have evolved in the way that it has.<BR>
><BR>
> Such cultural norms can be very enduring, and if they form a <BR>
> crucial piece of the culture's social structure then such things can <BR>
> prove *very* difficult to change.  Saying that the existence of any  <BR>
> trait in our own culture proves that it is in any way innate to our <BR>
> species is usually a remarkably unfounded assumption.  I can dig <BR>
> out some counter-examples if you wish, but for now I'll just say that <BR>
> this is the sort of thinking which has been used to justify all sorts <BR>
> of horrors, including racism.  Humans are incredibly flexible as a <BR>
> species.  The incest taboo seems to be fairly universal (it is broken <BR>
> in a number of cultures, but only in specific, highly limited and <BR>
> defined contexts).  However, there honestly are not that many other <BR>
> cultural universals of behavior.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, if you are willing to take the time, I think a list of not<BR>
just counter examples, but examples of how other cultures handle almost<BR>
*anything* that we take for granted in *different* ways would be a<BR>
great resource. It'd help us create *alien* human cultures. <BR>
<BR>
I still maintain that dealing with human cultures that differ from your<BR>
own will be *harder* than dealing with aliens, because *most* people<BR>
will have enough flexibility to not *expect* aliens to act like they do.<BR>
<BR>
But when confronted with "fellow humans" they will expect *exactly* that.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, as I understand it, an incest taboo is essentially a "survival<BR>
trait" for a culture. They are *much* more likely to survive *with*<BR>
one, than without one.<BR>
<BR>
I expect *that* to change once cheap gene sequencing is available,<BR>
because you'll be able to find out if a pairing would result in<BR>
problems for the children. <BR>
<BR>
Give it a few hindred years and we might see the incest taboo replaced<BR>
by one against pairing with someone who was genetically "incompatible"<BR>
(ie, you both carry recessives for the same harmful trait), with,<BR>
perhap a minor disapproval of pairings with someone that requires<BR>
medical intervention (ie, there's a *chance* of producing children with<BR>
a genetic "defect" if you don't screen the sperm and eggs before<BR>
fertilization). <BR>
<BR>
> In short, given that the Imperium is a mixture of Vilani society and <BR>
> Solomani society with additions from many other cultures, some of <BR>
> which are fully non-human, we have a great degree of flexibility wrt <BR>
> the Imperium's social structure, gender roles and social norms.<BR>
> At minimum, borrow from any past or present Earth culture you like <BR>
> and you have just as good a chance as being on-target as anyone <BR>
> else.  <BR>
<BR>
The hard part is digging up info about *different* cultures, as opposed<BR>
to ones that are fairly similiar to our own.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:08:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: body mods<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Gibson has a lot of body modification in his early stuff.  Pointed ears,<BR>
> lots of cybernetic implants etc.  I just reread neuromancer recently and<BR>
> there are some good examples there.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, I just remembered a real world mod that (I'm told) is fairly<BR>
simple. Remember KISS? One of them (Gene Simmons?) is rumored to have<BR>
had an operation that allowed him to stick his toungue out so far. <BR>
<BR>
Whether he did or not, I'm pretty sure that the operation in question<BR>
*does* exist...<BR>
<BR>
It'd take *serious* mods to get a human to the point of Jar-Jar Binks.<BR>
But being able to lick your eyebrows (to use an example from an old<BR>
joke) is well within reason.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:13:53 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> No it doesn't.  There is no requirement that everything being that<BR>
> detailed.  That's as ridiculous as trying to get disad points for your<BR>
> wedding vows! (happened to me once)<BR>
<BR>
The general rule in GURPS is that disadvantages acquired in<BR>
play are worth 0 points. The only noted exception I am aware<BR>
of in a Sense of Duty to a Patron. I tend to think that disadvantages<BR>
that help balance out the cost of any advantage gained in play<BR>
(you win the lottery but don't have the points to pay for<BR>
Filthy Rich and you may end up with a new Enemy (stalker) Disadvantage)<BR>
should probably we worth points but that's not the letter of <BR>
the rules.<BR>
<BR>
> Also Peter, what happens is this PC Spouse *fails the appearance roll?*<BR>
> Does the DM tell Sue to go home that night?<BR>
<BR>
Sue character may be slightly mad at her husband. She<BR>
will still be in the session but won't back him up enough<BR>
to count as a Ally. A 15- roll will fail only when a 16, 17<BR>
or 18 is rolled. This will happen 10/216 or about 4.6% of the<BR>
time. It is not unreasonable to think that brothers, spouses,<BR>
longtime friends, etc might be annoyed with each other 4.6%<BR>
of the time.<BR>
<BR>
> GURPS 3rd Ed (rev), page 23 "Allies"<BR>
> "In one sense, the other PCs who adventure with you are allies. But they<BR>
> can be unreliable allies indeed.  Often, they are chance acquaintances,<BR>
> first encountered at a roadside tavern only hours ago. They have their own<BR>
> hidden goals, ethics and motives, which may or may not coincide with your own.<BR>
> "An NPC Ally, on the other hand, is wholly reliable. Perhaps you fought<BR>
> side by side in an extended campaign, trained under the same master, or<BR>
> grew up in the same village. The two of your trust each other implicitly.<BR>
> You travel together, fight back-to-back, share rations in hard times, trade<BR>
> watches through the night."<BR>
<BR>
> This makes it clear that Allies are NPCs.<BR>
<BR>
Yes it sure does. I've already quoted this paragraph. What I<BR>
said was that I think the word NPC is a mistake because it seems<BR>
to me that if a PC is "wholly reliable, etc" than you ought to<BR>
pay for that advantage. Yes this can cause some silly results<BR>
but so can the Champions notion that your Super hero can not<BR>
carry a flashlight unless you pay points for it. Sometimes<BR>
verisimilitude must be sacrificed to balance. I happen to think<BR>
this is one of those cases.<BR>
<BR>
> >The GURPS rules state that all 100 point charecters are equivalent.<BR>
> >Thus a PC Ally should be no different than an NPC Ally. Other<BR>
> >player charecters who help your player charecter are outside<BR>
> >assistance.<BR>
<BR>
> Except, as stated above PCs tend to have agendas of their own.<BR>
<BR>
> GM: "OK, Bob you've lifted the memory core out of the computer.  Congrats<BR>
> guys, you've got the plans for the Star Trigger!"<BR>
> Sue: "I shoot Bob in the back."<BR>
<BR>
Than Sue was not "wholly reliable" as per the definition <BR>
and Bob should not have had to pay for her.<BR>
<BR>
> Peter, please explain to me what happens when half the party fails their<BR>
> mutual appearance rolls.<BR>
<BR>
They are still their physically but they are slightly annoyed<BR>
with one another over something that happened off camera and thus<BR>
are unwilling to back up the other PC first. Thus when they appear<BR>
they will act in their own interests (or the party's interests if <BR>
they have Sense of Duty: Friends and close companions).<BR>
<BR>
Example:<BR>
If Bob fails his roll to have his characters wife (Sue's character)<BR>
appear but Sue makes her roll to have her charecters husband<BR>
(Bob's character) appear then the logical inference is that<BR>
Sue can count on back up from Bob but Bob can't count on<BR>
back up from Sue. Perhaps Bob's charecter forgot their anniversery<BR>
and Su's charecter is mad at him while he is not mad at her<BR>
and is continuing to treat her nicely. If next session Bob<BR>
makes his Ally roll while Sue fails hers than Sue's charecter<BR>
must have forgiven her husband while Bob's charecter has become <BR>
annoyed with his wife.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2606<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 14 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2607<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2606<BR>
Traders and Starports (was Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?)  <BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
Re: Spacing the ship's cat<BR>
Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
Re: HELP! Tracking ship movements in a system<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Steve Bryant Traveller Artwork<BR>
Re: HELP! Tracking ship movements in a system<BR>
Re: Starship Quirks<BR>
Re: GT: Semi-permanent External Tanks (was Drop Tanks)<BR>
system data format<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2598<BR>
Roc: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
RE: HELP! Tracking ship movements in a system<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
Need megacorp logo - Makhidkarun<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:15:43 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2606<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
> <BR>
> > Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > > M1[1] + F + M2 can yield M1 + F, F + M2 and M1 + M2<BR>
> > > and even M1 + F + M2.<BR>
> <BR>
> > So how many eV does this reaction produce, and does it require deutritium-<BR>
> > tritum or just straight hydrogen? <g><BR>
> <BR>
> I don't think that some of these relationships would work<BR>
> out if the 'hydrogen' in question were straight....<BR>
> Hence it probably requires 'hydrogen' in its rarer sexual<BR>
> orientations: deuterium and or tritium.<BR>
<BR>
Wow. I thought I'd seen every damn euphemism, circumlocution, and other <BR>
synonym for sexual orientation imaginable. Silly me.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell "Make mine tritium, please" B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:12:11 -0500<BR>
From: "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Traders and Starports (was Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?)  <BR>
<BR>
The way an airline prices its seats is totally wacky and probably requires a<BR>
PHD in accounting to decipher the actual numbers they use, but the basic<BR>
idea is to fill as many seats as possible for each leg of the trip.  This is<BR>
the number they try to optimize.  Flying between cities that have a large<BR>
amount of traffic use larger aircraft and fly more frequently and at often a<BR>
very much reduced price.  There are also incentives to fly a return leg as<BR>
well and can often be as cheap or cheaper than buying a one way ticket.<BR>
Flying from a large city to a smaller city will not fill as many seats so<BR>
the planes get smaller and fly less frequently.<BR>
<BR>
The smaller you get the more likely it will be a smaller company flying<BR>
smaller aircraft.  You might also find niche markets here flying small<BR>
aircraft lots of times per day.<BR>
<BR>
The bottom line is money obviously and the system has evolved into a model<BR>
that actually can translate fairly well for the TU.  Its a feeder system.<BR>
Smaller companies serve the smaller cities and towns, then regional airlines<BR>
feed them to bigger cities and Nationals cover particular areas well, but<BR>
the big cities are all covered by the large powerful companies, that is<BR>
flights between large cities.  There is actually fairly heavy competition to<BR>
have gates at the large cities and it is a constant ongoing competition to<BR>
get and keep these gates at the big cities.  And that applies worldwide.<BR>
There is also a big move afoot to make alliances between big companies in<BR>
other parts of the world, this would translate well to Traveller also,<BR>
allowing a sophont to book a trip with one company that has connections all<BR>
the way across the Imperium, might be 3 or 4 different companies that have<BR>
an alliance.<BR>
ObTrav:This model gives the Megacorps gates in the bigger Starports along<BR>
the most commonly traveled routes, and you can extrapolate from there with<BR>
some companies being domain-wide, some sector-wide, some subsector-wide and<BR>
some just scrappy by in small regions of subsectors.  They may cross the<BR>
political boundaries as it is really a size(population) and traffic issue as<BR>
much as anything.  The Starports are making their money but selling gates to<BR>
the companies and the bigger ones can be picky and make great deals for<BR>
themselves and the smaller ones may have to actually offer incentives to Far<BR>
Traders just to get someone to come to their port semi-regularly. Jump<BR>
capability(I.e jump 2 or more) IMHO is a factor only if it will connect 2<BR>
large ports.  Companies aren't going to spend money on ships if they can't<BR>
get good utility from them.<BR>
<BR>
Speed of travel will most certainly be a factor (time is money after all),<BR>
but if the Concord is a good example, it will only be an option between the<BR>
largest ports in order to maintain enough customers that want to fly it<BR>
regularly at higher prices (you can simply double the price for these<BR>
flights) as _generally_ it is only the very wealthy that fly it.   YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:22:03 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > Peter, please explain to me what happens when half the party fails their<BR>
> > mutual appearance rolls.<BR>
> <BR>
> They are still their physically but they are slightly annoyed<BR>
> with one another over something that happened off camera and thus<BR>
> are unwilling to back up the other PC first. Thus when they appear<BR>
> they will act in their own interests (or the party's interests if <BR>
> they have Sense of Duty: Friends and close companions).<BR>
<BR>
Peter, I am once again unable to accept the assertion that you're not <BR>
trolling. Are you sure you wouldn't find GURPs more enjoyable if you <BR>
dispensed with the players altogether? That way their little whims <BR>
won't conflict with the die rolls...<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:41:19 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Spacing the ship's cat<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Spacing the ship's cat is not a bug; it's a feature.  <BR>
<BR>
> Top Ten Reasons to Space the Ship's Cat:<BR>
> 10.  All ship's mice already killed (worked itself out of a<BR>
> job).<BR>
> 9. Doyle's Eel infestation beyond cat's ability to<BR>
> exterminate.<BR>
> 8. Cat is a disguised Hiver larva.<BR>
> 7. Cost of cat life support exceeds cat's profit generation<BR>
> (likely cause: see #10).<BR>
> 6. Cat beat computer at 3-D chess.<BR>
> 5. Cat beat navigator at Jeopardy.<BR>
> 4. Caught stealing Roupian Kippers from the galley.<BR>
> 3. Cat hairs clogging air vents.<BR>
> 2. Noble passenger taken aboard who is allergic to cats.<BR>
> and<BR>
> 1. Cat is losing target control at the litter box.<BR>
<BR>
Top Ten Reasons _Not_ to Space the Ships Cat<BR>
<BR>
10.	You are playing GURPS Traveller and the cat has Nine<BR>
Lives (Eight Extra Lives at 25 points each GT Comp1 p36)<BR>
so it won't work anyway.<BR>
9.	Imperial Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to<BR>
Animals has a surplus Azhanti High Lightning cruiser and<BR>
the will to use it.<BR>
8.	Cat is a +1 DM on the role to find middle passengers<BR>
who like cats.<BR>
7.	ISS has declared your cat sentient, spacing it will be<BR>
a High Justice crime.<BR>
6.	Surgically implant a video bug in the cat and use it to <BR>
spy on hot looking starboard gunner.<BR>
5.	Cat can be an extra emergency rations in case of misjump.<BR>
4.	Fun to turn off the gravity in the hold and roll the<BR>
cat toy into it. When the cat leaps in to get the toy you can<BR>
watch it flounder in zero G.<BR>
3.	You're playing in a GURPS traveller/ GURPS Egypt<BR>
crossover and cats are sacred.<BR>
2.	Littering in the space lanes is a really bad idea.<BR>
1.	Cat annoys the heck out of those darn Vargr.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:53:24 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
<BR>
>If I order the generic version of the gamemaster module that is<BR>
>available now, I could customize it to run Traveller games, as well<BR>
>as games using other systems, right?  <BR>
><BR>
>What the Traveller version buys me is (1) having the customization<BR>
>for CT already done, (2) the supplementary software for character<BR>
>and world generation, and (3) a couple of adventures, correct?  And I<BR>
>would still be able to run non-Traveller with this version?<BR>
<BR>
Correct. The Traveller version has everything the Basic version has, just the extra Traveller related material.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter<BR>
GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:42:53 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: HELP! Tracking ship movements in a system<BR>
<BR>
"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Fellow sophonts,<BR>
> <BR>
> Vector math is definitely not my forte. Has anyone created<BR>
> a software tool for computing and tracking the constant<BR>
> movement and positions of ships within a star system?<BR>
> Regardless of how it's done, I need it to be *fast*.<BR>
> That is, I plug in the numbers only once rather than<BR>
> messing with a calculator every 5 minutes.<BR>
> <BR>
> I have Excel 97 installed on my Traveller laptop, if<BR>
> anyone has a pre-built spreadsheet. Regardless, I'd<BR>
> appreciate any help/advice.<BR>
> <BR>
> David<BR>
<BR>
Hi David,<BR>
<BR>
I can give you both an Excel spreadsheet solution and<BR>
a Java solution.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, the numbers will work out in my favor always.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:56:00 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
>  > Peter, please explain to me what happens when half the party fails their<BR>
>  > mutual appearance rolls.<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman replied:<BR>
>They are still their physically but they are slightly annoyed<BR>
>with one another over something that happened off camera and thus<BR>
>are unwilling to back up the other PC first. Thus when they appear<BR>
>they will act in their own interests (or the party's interests if<BR>
>they have Sense of Duty: Friends and close companions).<BR>
><BR>
>Example:<BR>
>If Bob fails his roll to have his characters wife (Sue's character)<BR>
>appear but Sue makes her roll to have her charecters husband<BR>
>(Bob's character) appear then the logical inference is that<BR>
>Sue can count on back up from Bob but Bob can't count on<BR>
>back up from Sue. Perhaps Bob's charecter forgot their anniversery<BR>
>and Su's charecter is mad at him while he is not mad at her<BR>
>and is continuing to treat her nicely. If next session Bob<BR>
>makes his Ally roll while Sue fails hers than Sue's charecter<BR>
>must have forgiven her husband while Bob's charecter has become<BR>
>annoyed with his wife.<BR>
<BR>
Okay, I have got to ask a question here. Peter, your statement seems <BR>
to imply that whether or not a PC 'backs up' another PC should be <BR>
dependent on die rolls, rather than roleplaying the characters.  Is <BR>
that correct?!?<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:52:06 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
>BTW, as I understand it, an incest taboo is essentially a "survival<BR>
trait" for a culture. They are *much* more likely to survive *with*<BR>
one, than without one.<<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't that depend on what is considered incest though?<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:00:42 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Steve Bryant Traveller Artwork<BR>
<BR>
We have commisioned artist Steve Bryant, who did work for T4, to do some new artwork for our GRIP users to use in their campaigns. <BR>
<BR>
The first 6 images are done, and have a Traveller theme, including an Aslan and Vargr image. If you want or need some artwork for your PERSONAL Traveller campaigns or Traveller related website, feel free to use these images. <BR>
<BR>
Hunter<BR>
GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:34:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: HELP! Tracking ship movements in a system<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I recently ran an adventure in which the PCs were<BR>
> messing with a planet-side installation in the<BR>
> outer system and I needed to keep up with a ship<BR>
> approaching their location.<BR>
><BR>
> Not having done this for the better part of 15 years,<BR>
> I butchered it royally. Fortunately, I have a very<BR>
> forgiving group of players but it was exceedingly<BR>
> annoying for me.<BR>
><BR>
> Vector math is definitely not my forte. Has anyone created<BR>
> a software tool for computing and tracking the constant<BR>
> movement and positions of ships within a star system?<BR>
> Regardless of how it's done, I need it to be *fast*.<BR>
<BR>
Why do *math*? Why not just *plot* the vectors? <BR>
<BR>
> That is, I plug in the numbers only once rather than<BR>
> messing with a calculator every 5 minutes.<BR>
<BR>
Ah. I see.<BR>
<BR>
> I have Excel 97 installed on my Traveller laptop, if<BR>
> anyone has a pre-built spreadsheet. Regardless, I'd<BR>
> appreciate any help/advice.<BR>
<BR>
This is *not* a job for a spreadsheet. <BR>
<BR>
But it *is* something I've been thinking about writing a program for,<BR>
for *years*. Be warned, it'll likely be a DOS program, but it should<BR>
run under Windows (and OS/2) anyway. <BR>
<BR>
Just don't expect it *soon*. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:41:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Quirks<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
><BR>
>>       If it were retrofitted for non-humanoid aliens, <BR>
>>things could be even more fun.  >:-)<BR>
><BR>
> "Bad news, captain.  The ship we've commandeered was last<BR>
> owned by a Droyne oytrip, and they've retrofitted<BR>
> everything to their own specifications."<BR>
><BR>
> "Including the freshers?"<BR>
><BR>
> "Afraid so, sir."<BR>
<BR>
It gets worse. They may have refitted the *staterooms*. If Droyne are<BR>
the size I seem to remember them being, they could have much *shorter*<BR>
stateroom. And the beds are even worse...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:47:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GT: Semi-permanent External Tanks (was Drop Tanks)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Second: My impression is that canonically, that's exactly what<BR>
> you did with drop tanks, at least in CT - you sucked up the fuel,<BR>
> and kicked the damn things off _before_ you went into jump.  Am I<BR>
> really up to the Z in Alzheimers?<BR>
<BR>
Nope, that's the way *I* recall it to. And that's *why* they are called<BR>
*drop* tanks.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:49:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: system data format<BR>
<BR>
What exactly *is* the current "standard" format for system data files?<BR>
<BR>
And which of the following is *not* included?<BR>
<BR>
(the following are required for a *2-d* system)<BR>
<BR>
Star<BR>
	Type<BR>
	mass (is this calculable from type?)<BR>
	radius (is this calculable from type?)<BR>
<BR>
Planet<BR>
	mass (needed for satellite orbital calcs)<BR>
	orbital radius (or semi-major axis if orbit is elliptical)<BR>
	orbital eccentricity<BR>
	orbital direction (would be orbital inclination in 3d)<BR>
	argument of the perihelion (ie what direction the line from the<BR>
		star to the planet points when the planet is closest to<BR>
		the star)<BR>
	time of a perihelion passage<BR>
<BR>
Satellite<BR>
	mass (only needed for calcing orbits and tides)<BR>
	orbital radius (or semi-major axis if orbit is elliptical)<BR>
	orbital eccentricity<BR>
	orbital direction (would be orbital inclination in 3d)<BR>
	argument of the perigee (ie what direction the line from the<BR>
		planet to the satellite points when the satellite is<BR>
		closest to the planet)<BR>
	time of a perigee passage<BR>
<BR>
For 3d systems, we need these also...<BR>
<BR>
System<BR>
	Inclination of ecliptic to galactic plane (inclinations greater<BR>
		than 180 indicate retrograde orbits)<BR>
	longitude of the ascending node of the ecliptic (ie angle<BR>
        	between line joining star to galactic center, and the<BR>
		from the star to where a planet orbiting in the<BR>
		ecliptic would cross the galactic plane while moving<BR>
		upwards)<BR>
<BR>
Planet<BR>
	Inclination of orbit to ecliptic (inclinations greater than 180<BR>
		indicate retrograde orbits)<BR>
	longitude of the ascending node (with respect to the ecliptic,<BR>
		not the galactic plane)<BR>
<BR>
Satellite<BR>
	Inclination of orbit to planet's equator (inclinations greater<BR>
		than 180 indicate retrograde orbits)<BR>
	longitude of the ascending node (with respect to the planet's<BR>
		equator, not the ecliptic)<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, the "argument of the perihelion/perigee" is measured in the<BR>
plane of the orbit from where the plane running thru the zero longitude<BR>
line on the primary intersects the orbit)<BR>
<BR>
All this stuff is needed to get planetary and ship movement "right". <BR>
<BR>
I think I have all that right. Bruce, do you see any obvious goofs?<BR>
<BR>
Frankly, I'll likely stick to the "2d" system when I start writing the<BR>
orbital tracking stuff. Which means all the stuff listed under 3d gets<BR>
a value of "0".<BR>
<BR>
Oh hell... I think I need inclination of the planet's *axis* in there<BR>
somewhere, too. <BR>
<BR>
Yech! Now you know *one* of the reasons I haven't ever tried writing<BR>
the program...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:17:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2598<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
>>>>Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote :<BR>
>>>> Eris wrote:<BR>
>>>>> Once complied into native machine code java programs are<BR>
>>>>> reputedly as fast a C based programs.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Just to really stir , it has been conclusively shown that for<BR>
>>> certain types of program, interpreted languages are inherently<BR>
>>> faster than compiled languages.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Do you have a citation for this claim?<BR>
><BR>
>> It seems to me that any interpretation<BR>
>> can be no better timewise than a compile plus an execution, and given my<BR>
>> definitions for these words, what you just said seems nonsensical.<BR>
><BR>
> I was referring to straight interpretation, not JIT compiles, so the<BR>
> comparison is between<BR>
> "execute" and "execute", no compiles involved. (An interpreter does not<BR>
> normally compile it's program on the fly, it just executes the intermediate<BR>
> code in the same way the processor executes compiled code, an interpreter is<BR>
> basically just a high level CPU )<BR>
<BR>
> The reason is that a piece of complex code can be represented by a small<BR>
> number of intermediate code symbols for the interpreter, which can then be<BR>
> read, understood, and acted on by the interpreter faster than the equivalent<BR>
> compiled code can be read and acted on by the underlying processor.<BR>
<BR>
That requires a very efficient "intermediate code" *and* a damn fast parser.<BR>
<BR>
> I know it may sound unlikely, but from memory the mathematics are similar to<BR>
> the reasons why things like trellis encoding can get more than one "bit" of<BR>
> data into a single physical bit on the line which also sounds unlikely when<BR>
> you first hear it.<BR>
<BR>
Except, that's *not* what trellis coding does. It gets more than one<BR>
bit into one *baud* (signal state).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:16:52 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
<BR>
> TDRandall@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Can anyone on the list make sense of the interstellar travel costs with<BR>
a<BR>
> > nice real-world example?<BR>
><BR>
> SNIP<BR>
> ><BR>
> > For instance, suppose a person wants to go to a world 4 parsecs away.<BR>
At<BR>
> > first, their only hope of transport appears to be a 1j capable ship<BR>
which<BR>
> > means at least four weeks, definitely four legs of the trip, and four<BR>
fares<BR>
> > for a total of Cr40000.  Then a 2j capable ship shows up.  Now the<BR>
person is<BR>
> > looking at a travel time of half the time, and per the rules it costs<BR>
> > Cr20000.  If a 4j ship shows up, the passenger now can do the trip in 1<BR>
week<BR>
> > and pay only Cr 10000.  What a deal!  For convenience alone they should<BR>
be<BR>
> > willing to pay more;  depending on the passenger, they may be willing to<BR>
pay<BR>
> > more than $400 simply for the 4j trip and even charging the same $400<BR>
for the<BR>
> > entire trip seems reasonable given the shorter travel time.<BR>
><BR>
> SNIP<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Domestic airfares WITHIN Australia can be/are much more expensive than the<BR>
airfares to travel outside to New Zealand and Bali, etc.  We have a stupid<BR>
system here!<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:16:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: HELP! Tracking ship movements in a system<BR>
<BR>
Could you post that? And what about a Palm port?<BR>
<BR>
LOL Does not ask for much ;)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Rob<BR>
Eaglestone<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 7:43 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: HELP! Tracking ship movements in a system<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Fellow sophonts,<BR>
> <BR>
> Vector math is definitely not my forte. Has anyone created<BR>
> a software tool for computing and tracking the constant<BR>
> movement and positions of ships within a star system?<BR>
> Regardless of how it's done, I need it to be *fast*.<BR>
> That is, I plug in the numbers only once rather than<BR>
> messing with a calculator every 5 minutes.<BR>
> <BR>
> I have Excel 97 installed on my Traveller laptop, if<BR>
> anyone has a pre-built spreadsheet. Regardless, I'd<BR>
> appreciate any help/advice.<BR>
> <BR>
> David<BR>
<BR>
Hi David,<BR>
<BR>
I can give you both an Excel spreadsheet solution and<BR>
a Java solution.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, the numbers will work out in my favor always.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:19:01 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> > Also Peter, what happens is this PC Spouse *fails the appearance roll?*<BR>
> > Does the DM tell Sue to go home that night?<BR>
> <BR>
> Sue character may be slightly mad at her husband. She<BR>
> will still be in the session but won't back him up enough<BR>
> to count as a Ally. A 15- roll will fail only when a 16, 17<BR>
> or 18 is rolled. This will happen 10/216 or about 4.6% of the<BR>
> time. It is not unreasonable to think that brothers, spouses,<BR>
> longtime friends, etc might be annoyed with each other 4.6%<BR>
> of the time.<BR>
<BR>
Following this logic, any time a PC suggests a course of action,<BR>
he/she/it must make a roll against Leadership to convince the other<BR>
_PC_s to agree that the proposed course of action is a good idea,<BR>
_without regard_ to the opinions of the players in question.  For<BR>
example (borrowing from _The Dirty Dozen_):<BR>
<BR>
Jeff: "You know, if we pour gasoline down the ventilation shafts, then<BR>
throw down a few grenades, I bet that we could kill lots of the enemy<BR>
soldiers in that underground shelter."  <<rolls 18 on 3d6>><BR>
<BR>
Stephanie: "You know, Jeff, I was about to say the same thing.  Too bad<BR>
you failed your Leadership roll.  <<glares at dice, sighs>>  <<looks at<BR>
GM questioningly, winces, and plays along with Jeff's roll>> That's a<BR>
stupid idea.  Instead, let's beg the Nazis to surrender.  I'll bet that<BR>
the Nazis will agree to give up, since we're the good guys."  <<also<BR>
fails Leadership roll>><BR>
<BR>
Joe: "Sorry, guys, but, since your dice rolls failed to convince me that<BR>
either of you had a good idea, I talked to this prisoner.  He scored a<BR>
Critical Success on _his_ Persuasion roll, so I'm going to renounce my<BR>
allegiance to my country, and kill you all with my Thompson submachine<BR>
gun.  C'est la guerre."<BR>
> <BR>
> > GURPS 3rd Ed (rev), page 23 "Allies"<BR>
> > "In one sense, the other PCs who adventure with you are allies. But they<BR>
> > can be unreliable allies indeed.  Often, they are chance acquaintances,<BR>
> > first encountered at a roadside tavern only hours ago. They have their own<BR>
> > hidden goals, ethics and motives, which may or may not coincide with your own.<BR>
> > "An NPC Ally, on the other hand, is wholly reliable. Perhaps you fought<BR>
> > side by side in an extended campaign, trained under the same master, or<BR>
> > grew up in the same village. The two of your trust each other implicitly.<BR>
> > You travel together, fight back-to-back, share rations in hard times, trade<BR>
> > watches through the night."<BR>
> <BR>
> > This makes it clear that Allies are NPCs.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes it sure does. I've already quoted this paragraph. What I<BR>
> said was that I think the word NPC is a mistake because it seems<BR>
> to me that if a PC is "wholly reliable, etc" than you ought to<BR>
> pay for that advantage. Yes this can cause some silly results<BR>
> but so can the Champions notion that your Super hero can not<BR>
> carry a flashlight unless you pay points for it. Sometimes<BR>
> verisimilitude must be sacrificed to balance. I happen to think<BR>
> this is one of those cases.<BR>
> <BR>
> > >The GURPS rules state that all 100 point charecters are equivalent.<BR>
> > >Thus a PC Ally should be no different than an NPC Ally. Other<BR>
> > >player charecters who help your player charecter are outside<BR>
> > >assistance.<BR>
<BR>
Are _any_ PCs "WHOLLY reliable"?  In a game, can you _guarantee_ that<BR>
your fellow party members will act in your best interests, even if that<BR>
PC is married to your own PC?<BR>
> <BR>
> > Except, as stated above PCs tend to have agendas of their own.<BR>
> <BR>
> > GM: "OK, Bob you've lifted the memory core out of the computer.  Congrats<BR>
> > guys, you've got the plans for the Star Trigger!"<BR>
> > Sue: "I shoot Bob in the back."<BR>
> <BR>
> Than Sue was not "wholly reliable" as per the definition<BR>
> and Bob should not have had to pay for her.<BR>
<BR>
_At what point_ does Bob find out that Sue is _not_ "wholly reliable"? <BR>
Does Bob's dead character get a rebate for paying for an Ally that was<BR>
less than reliable?  If so, what good does that do Bob's character, who<BR>
is now slowly assuming room temperature?  If not, then why did Bob have<BR>
to pay the full cost for an unreliable Ally?  If Bob is made aware of<BR>
Sue's potential treachery during character generation, then why would he<BR>
pay _anything_ for her as an Ally?<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> > Peter, please explain to me what happens when half the party fails their<BR>
> > mutual appearance rolls.<BR>
> <BR>
> They are still their physically but they are slightly annoyed<BR>
> with one another over something that happened off camera and thus<BR>
> are unwilling to back up the other PC first. Thus when they appear<BR>
> they will act in their own interests (or the party's interests if<BR>
> they have Sense of Duty: Friends and close companions).<BR>
> <BR>
> Example:<BR>
> If Bob fails his roll to have his characters wife (Sue's character)<BR>
> appear but Sue makes her roll to have her charecters husband<BR>
> (Bob's character) appear then the logical inference is that<BR>
> Sue can count on back up from Bob but Bob can't count on<BR>
> back up from Sue. Perhaps Bob's charecter forgot their anniversery<BR>
> and Su's charecter is mad at him while he is not mad at her<BR>
> and is continuing to treat her nicely. If next session Bob<BR>
> makes his Ally roll while Sue fails hers than Sue's charecter<BR>
> must have forgiven her husband while Bob's charecter has become<BR>
> annoyed with his wife.<BR>
<BR>
I refer you to my above depiction of a party of PCs who are forced to<BR>
abide by Leadership and Reaction rolls made or failed by other PCs.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:32:42 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Need megacorp logo - Makhidkarun<BR>
<BR>
We need a copy, if one exists of the megacorp logo for Makhidkarun. Does anyone know if one exists?<BR>
<BR>
If not, would anyone be interested in designing it?<BR>
<BR>
Please contact me off-list for this at grip@RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance!<BR>
<BR>
Hunter<BR>
GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2607<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2608</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 15 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2608<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Spacing the ship's cat<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2606<BR>
Roc: Starship Quirks<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Roc: Men & Women OT:<BR>
Long-distance introduction to CT<BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Robot excel spreadsheet<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Nude Frying <g><BR>
Re: The Rebellion. Why did it Happen?<BR>
Re: Body Mods<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
Empress Wave/Zhodani Exodus after 1200?<BR>
Re: body mods<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:39:09 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
>Subject: RE: Starship quirks<BR>
>Glenn Goffin wrote:<snip><BR>
>>On the other hand, personalities and even objectives<BR>
often<BR>
<BR>
>I do think that tension within a group is a good thing,<BR>
>and I do think that it increases the enjoyment all around.<BR>
<BR>
[deletion]<BR>
>With that being said, the consequences of the coffee<BR>
>scenario are not merely just like real life consequences, <BR>
>but there are real life consequences which must be taken <BR>
>into account. <BR>
<BR>
This is a good and important point.  There may be<BR>
consequences outside of the game, especially if a PC gets<BR>
killed.  Where the PC is merely fired, it's not so clear. <BR>
For example, what if the coffee incident happened in jump? <BR>
The captain can't just space a fired crew member; the union<BR>
contract prohibits it.  So you have this crew member aboard<BR>
in the status of someone who's been fired effective<BR>
probably upon arrival at the next world.  Or maybe the ship<BR>
has a contractual obligation to return him to the place<BR>
where he was hired.  He's still around for a lot of<BR>
role-playing.  <BR>
<BR>
If someone gets killed in Traveller that's probably it for<BR>
that player for a while.  The referee has to think about a<BR>
useful function for the player, and that's not always easy.<BR>
 Lethality should be low for this reason as well as for<BR>
reasons of good role-playing.  Real people, with a few<BR>
exceptions, tend to think pretty carefully about how to<BR>
avoid getting killed.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:44:13 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 5:59:am<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > 1. Cat is losing target control at the litter box.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, if the cat-haters on the ship wouldn't keep the gravity off in the<BR>
> room with the litter box, the cat would have a chance!<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
No gravity for the cat's requirement?  Ewwww, yuck!  Gives new meaning to<BR>
cat's spray!!<BR>
<BR>
"Look out!!!!!  The cat's taking a piss!!!!!!!!!!!!" <image of urine<BR>
propelled kitty spiralling across the room><BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:50:54 -0500<BR>
From: "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Spacing the ship's cat<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 7:50 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Spacing the ship's cat<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> Spacing the ship's cat is not a bug; it's a feature.  <BR>
><BR>
>> Top Ten Reasons to Space the Ship's Cat:<BR>
>> 10.  All ship's mice already killed (worked itself out of a<BR>
>> job).<BR>
>> 9. Doyle's Eel infestation beyond cat's ability to<BR>
>> exterminate.<BR>
>> 8. Cat is a disguised Hiver larva.<BR>
>> 7. Cost of cat life support exceeds cat's profit generation<BR>
>> (likely cause: see #10).<BR>
>> 6. Cat beat computer at 3-D chess.<BR>
>> 5. Cat beat navigator at Jeopardy.<BR>
>> 4. Caught stealing Roupian Kippers from the galley.<BR>
>> 3. Cat hairs clogging air vents.<BR>
>> 2. Noble passenger taken aboard who is allergic to cats.<BR>
>> and<BR>
>> 1. Cat is losing target control at the litter box.<BR>
><BR>
>Top Ten Reasons _Not_ to Space the Ships Cat<BR>
><BR>
>10. You are playing GURPS Traveller and the cat has Nine<BR>
>Lives (Eight Extra Lives at 25 points each GT Comp1 p36)<BR>
>so it won't work anyway.<BR>
>9. Imperial Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to<BR>
>Animals has a surplus Azhanti High Lightning cruiser and<BR>
>the will to use it.<BR>
>8. Cat is a +1 DM on the role to find middle passengers<BR>
>who like cats.<BR>
>7. ISS has declared your cat sentient, spacing it will be<BR>
>a High Justice crime.<BR>
>6. Surgically implant a video bug in the cat and use it to <BR>
>spy on hot looking starboard gunner.<BR>
>5. Cat can be an extra emergency rations in case of misjump.<BR>
>4. Fun to turn off the gravity in the hold and roll the<BR>
>cat toy into it. When the cat leaps in to get the toy you can<BR>
>watch it flounder in zero G.<BR>
>3. You're playing in a GURPS traveller/ GURPS Egypt<BR>
>crossover and cats are sacred.<BR>
>2. Littering in the space lanes is a really bad idea.<BR>
>1. Cat annoys the heck out of those darn Vargr.<BR>
><BR>
ROFL, that made me actually laugh out loud!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:51:26 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2606<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> BTW, as I understand it, an incest taboo is essentially a "survival<BR>
> trait" for a culture. They are *much* more likely to survive *with*<BR>
> one, than without one.<BR>
<BR>
Replace "culture" with "population" in that statement. Incest is better <BR>
for a culture, as you won't be marrying the infidels.<BR>
<BR>
> Give it a few hindred years and we might see the incest taboo replaced<BR>
> by one against pairing with someone who was genetically "incompatible"<BR>
> (ie, you both carry recessives for the same harmful trait), with,<BR>
> perhap a minor disapproval of pairings with someone that requires<BR>
> medical intervention (ie, there's a *chance* of producing children with<BR>
> a genetic "defect" if you don't screen the sperm and eggs before<BR>
> fertilization). <BR>
<BR>
Some human cultures are already doing this. I just read the book _Genome_<BR>
by Matt Ridley. If I remember rightly, he relates that some Jewish sub-<BR>
ethnicities are screening for Tay-Sachs recessives in childhood, and there's <BR>
a hotline where you call and provide you and your fiancee's magic ID <BR>
numbers and they say "go" or "no go." (I may be misremembering details, <BR>
but that was the gist). <BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:58:12 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Starship Quirks<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------<BR>
Click here for Free Video!!<BR>
http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Daniel Phelps <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 7:30:am<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship Quirks<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Was written:<BR>
><BR>
> >> Picture a Hiver or a K'kree trying to figure out a bidet for the first<BR>
> >> time. :-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >If it's a hiver, 'how thoughtful of these humans to provide a drinking<BR>
> >fountain'.  Some things are best not considered.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> See the bathroom scene in "The Visitors".   Yes it is indeed French but<BR>
the<BR>
> scene is still amazingly funny even with subtitles.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
having watched this movie at least 10 times over the past week on cable and<BR>
video (yes, I taped it, and the sequel - naughty me), I was thinking this<BR>
same thing... after all, a toilet bowl can look like a water font too?<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 03:57:32 +0200<BR>
From: "anunnaki" <anunnaki@wanadoo.fr><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> No gravity for the cat's requirement?  Ewwww, yuck!  Gives new meaning to<BR>
> cat's spray!!<BR>
><BR>
> "Look out!!!!!  The cat's taking a piss!!!!!!!!!!!!" <image of urine<BR>
> propelled kitty spiralling across the room><BR>
><BR>
> -- The Roc<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
ROTFLMAO !!!!! OK, please, I can't stop cracking up when I get this<BR>
TERRIFYING image in my head :)<BR>
<BR>
Hey, how come urine-propelled cats don' t appear in FF&S ???<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:08:52 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------<BR>
Click here for Free Video!!<BR>
http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 9:50:am<BR>
Subject: Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> > I don't think that the heterosexual aspect enters into it at all.<BR>
Marriage<BR>
> > is seen as a willingness to make commitments and stick by them and to<BR>
enter<BR>
> > into an arrangement requiring a demonstration of integrity and<BR>
> > determination. A married leader is seen as stable, secure, and<BR>
supportive.<BR>
><BR>
> But a leader who was 'married' to another man would probably<BR>
> not be 'seen as stable, secure, and supportive', hence the<BR>
> expectations are heteronormative.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Actually, homosexual males don't have to be married at all to be seen as<BR>
stable, provided they have a history of being with the one partner they are<BR>
viewed as very stable indeed - and reap whatever rewards may accompany that<BR>
stability.  So perhaps it's only hetero males that have that non-stability<BR>
problem?  Though very few outed homosexual males are known if politics...<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:32:32 -0500<BR>
From: richardp <richardp@mac.com><BR>
Subject: Long-distance introduction to CT<BR>
<BR>
Hello!<BR>
<BR>
     I'm gearing up to run a PBEM game for some friends, and while the <BR>
setting is pretty far removed from the 3I, the CT rules would suit it <BR>
pretty well.  The catch is that most of the group aren't familiar with <BR>
CT, and loaning out my rulebooks isn't really an option because of <BR>
distance.<BR>
<BR>
     I suppose I could just email them a "handout" summarizing character <BR>
creation -- but making one would probably entail retyping or OCRing most <BR>
of book 1, which would be annoying even if it weren't a violation of <BR>
copyright.  Does anyone have any suggestions?<BR>
<BR>
  Richard<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:28:43 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs - does it make sense to you?<BR>
<BR>
Something else to think about:<BR>
<BR>
A J-1 Free Trader will probably not be accepting tickets <BR>
to a location 10 parsecs away.  They'll probably be<BR>
looking for Cr8,000, cash, for the mainworld one parsec<BR>
over.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:25:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>BTW, as I understand it, an incest taboo is essentially a "survival<BR>
> trait" for a culture. They are *much* more likely to survive *with*<BR>
> one, than without one.<<BR>
><BR>
> Doesn't that depend on what is considered incest though?<BR>
<BR>
Not as much as you might think. mating outside the group is almost<BR>
always good for the group. The only variable involved in various incest<BR>
taboos is the definition of the group.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:30:22 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
red@europa.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Then again, the GM wasn't anywhere near as good<BR>
> as our current one, the Evil Tod.<BR>
> <BR>
> Red<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah baby, I've seen his website.  I've read<BR>
the logs.  He's a sneaky one, that's for sure.<BR>
Where are you guys again?  Maybe I can get a <BR>
transfer...<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:56:04 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 13 Jun 00, at 22:40, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > There is a rather obvious solution to this question<BR>
><BR>
> > M1[1] + F + M2 can yield M1 + F, F + M2 and M1 + M2<BR>
> > and even M1 + F + M2.<BR>
><BR>
> So how many eV does this reaction produce, and does it require deutritium-<BR>
> tritum or just straight hydrogen? <g><BR>
<BR>
The hydrogen would probably have to be 'straight but not narrow' <grin><BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:56:30 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Robot excel spreadsheet<BR>
<BR>
Greetings all,<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone created a robot design spreadsheet a la the highguard ship design<BR>
spreadsheet.  I'm on vacation and don't have book 8 with me.  Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:59:22 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
>Not as much as you might think. mating outside the group is almost<BR>
always good for the group. The only variable involved in various incest<BR>
taboos is the definition of the group.<<BR>
<BR>
Ack! Sorry, half misunderstanding and half poor phrasing.<BR>
I thought you were referring only to the genetic aspect, not the social<BR>
aspects as well.<BR>
I was asking in regards to the genetic in reference to;<BR>
Is there a point at which an incest taboo is too liberal to be of use?<BR>
Is there a point at which an incest taboo is too restrictive to be of use?<BR>
These would be both social and genetic.<BR>
Then would come the question about evolving incest taboos, the rather<BR>
significant Biblical shift pre- and post-Leviticus (or post-Egyptian Exile<BR>
depending on where you assign the break) being the major shift.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
(All of two Anthro course 17 years ago for whatever they will help with.<BR>
Plus several of Heinlein's last books which has to count for something. :-P)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:54:25 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Nude Frying <g><BR>
<BR>
On 06/13/00 at 11:36 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>> "Bacon frying in the nude....an entry  for the Darwin Awards! News at 10." <BR>
>> <g><BR>
<BR>
>And I suppose *you* didn't indulge in behavior equally worthy of a Darwin<BR>
>Award back when you were 18?<BR>
<BR>
"The beleagured Eris issued a terse, 'No comment!' while being<BR>
hustled from the scene.  Updates at 11."<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:34:27 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Rebellion. Why did it Happen?<BR>
<BR>
>Subject: Re: The Rebellion. Why did it Happen?<BR>
<BR>
  Corruption of the morals of youth, pure and simple! The system<BR>
was sound and reliable, and almost stood through the heroic efforts<BR>
of millions of Imperial nobles, officers, and administrators to<BR>
stave off the rot-induced collapse.  :|<BR>
<BR>
       "Imperial Elegy<BR>
        <BR>
        You will reap what you sow<BR>
        Put your face to the ground<BR>
        Here come the marching men<BR>
        Your banners wrapped around"<BR>
<BR>
[This sort of trash can't be permitted while Dulinor is running <BR>
loose; use your discretion to stop as expedient. Hail Lucan!]<BR>
<BR>
                                                                *SoM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:02:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Body Mods<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/14/00 6:08 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Heck, I just remembered a real world mod that (I'm told) is fairly<BR>
> simple. Remember KISS? One of them (Gene Simmons?) is rumored to have<BR>
> had an operation that allowed him to stick his toungue out so far.<BR>
> <BR>
> Whether he did or not, I'm pretty sure that the operation in question<BR>
> *does* exist...<BR>
<BR>
I think that it is snipping that little tendon type thing in the front of<BR>
your mouth that runs from behind the lower incisors to the tongue.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:03:43 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com> wrote <BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > > Peter, please explain to me what happens when half the party fails their<BR>
> > > mutual appearance rolls.<BR>
<BR>
> > They are still their physically but they are slightly annoyed<BR>
> > with one another over something that happened off camera and thus<BR>
> > are unwilling to back up the other PC first. Thus when they appear<BR>
> > they will act in their own interests (or the party's interests if <BR>
> > they have Sense of Duty: Friends and close companions).<BR>
<BR>
> Peter, I am once again unable to accept the assertion that you're not <BR>
> trolling. Are you sure you wouldn't find GURPs more enjoyable if you <BR>
> dispensed with the players altogether? That way their little whims <BR>
> won't conflict with the die rolls...<BR>
<BR>
So if you had a player whose character had Pacifism: Can not <BR>
Kill and he said: "Alphonso will fire his AK-47 full of live<BR>
ammo into the crowd.' you wouldn't have a problem with it? <BR>
<BR>
One of the basic ideas behind GURPS is that a character who<BR>
fails their will roll to avoid a mental Disadvantage _must_<BR>
act in accordance with his Disadvantage, I am merely extending<BR>
this train of logic to include Advantages. [1] In my mind GURPS<BR>
has already established, in its Disadvantage system, that sometimes<BR>
a characters actions will be out of a players control. Some<BR>
people might see this as a flaw in GURPS but I see it as arguably <BR>
realistic and needed for play balance mechanism. Any player who<BR>
accepts a Disadvantage already know that this may mean his behavior<BR>
is occasionally out of his control. If the behavior of the<BR>
charecter is not governed by what the player believes the<BR>
charecter would do rather than by what he, as a player, thinks<BR>
the charecter should do than (IMNSHO) he is not role playing<BR>
properly. The charecters I play frequently do things that I<BR>
would not do. It is not at all uncommon for my charecters to<BR>
do things that I find stupid. If I did not already know what<BR>
the charecters reasoning was I would have to ask myself what<BR>
they were thinking.<BR>
<BR>
The GURPS rules already establish that Contacts can be present<BR>
but choose not to help the player. I am suggesting that sometimes<BR>
when an Ally or Patron roll fails this may also represent an<BR>
Ally or Patron who is physically present but who chooses not<BR>
to help you. Arguably Allies can not choose not to help you<BR>
or they would not be 'wholly reliable', as Allies must be so<BR>
this notion may not be valid but it can effectively model<BR>
human behavior in that sometimes even family, loved ones,<BR>
and close friends will let you down. All an Ally 15- is saying<BR>
is that about 4.6% of the time that Ally will not help you.<BR>
This amy mean that they are not there or it may mean that<BR>
they choose not to help you.<BR>
<BR>
As an example a 10 year old charecter might take his Mother<BR>
as an Ally or Patron. Sometimes Mom might let her son make<BR>
his own mistakes as part of his growing up process. Mom would<BR>
be physically present but would not help her son because (according<BR>
to her roll on her Professional Skill: Mom) she ought to let <BR>
junior make his own mistakes.<BR>
<BR>
[1] Said assumption may be invalid. Arguably Advantages should<BR>
always help you and never harm you but in reality your possession<BR>
of an Advantage may cause people to treat you differently.<BR>
Possibly this would be best modeled in GURPS by an accompanying<BR>
Disadvantage such as a Reputation or Duty.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:14:58 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
red@europa.com wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter, your statement seems <BR>
> to imply that whether or not a PC 'backs up' another PC should be <BR>
> dependent on die rolls, rather than roleplaying the characters.  Is <BR>
> that correct?!?<BR>
<BR>
The GURPS rules already establish that charecter behavior<BR>
is sometimes beyond player control. It does not matter if <BR>
Bob really wants his charecter to help out Jim's charecter <BR>
if Bob's charecter has the Cowardice Disadvantage he may not <BR>
be able to help Jim's charecter no matter how much Bob wants <BR>
him to.<BR>
<BR>
Bob has chosen to play a charecter. As such he as a player<BR>
(at least IMHO) has a moral imperative to model what he believes <BR>
that charecters behavior in said situation would be. In GURPS <BR>
charecter behavior will sometoimes be determined by die rolls. <BR>
If this bothers Bob than he sould probably be playing a game<BR>
other than GURPS.<BR>
<BR>
If Bob were playing under most Traveller rules sets his behavior<BR>
would usually be at his discression. When Bob chose to play GURPS<BR>
Traveller instead he lost that freedom. If he does not like it he<BR>
should quit.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:29:04 EDT<BR>
From: RvKsword@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Empress Wave/Zhodani Exodus after 1200?<BR>
<BR>
Are there any web sites/books/supplements/magazines/etc (aside from the <BR>
Regency Sourcebook and the GURPS Alien Races book) that have any significant <BR>
information on topics like the Zhodani Core Expeditions, Longbow, the Empress <BR>
Wave or related events, such as the Zhodani Exodus?  They're turning into <BR>
major themes in my campiagn and i'm trying to dig up as much dirt on em as i <BR>
can - the most important question I have  is whats happening to the areas <BR>
where the Empress Wave has just passed by? (i read sometihng about it <BR>
screwing with psions minds but can't find any other references)<BR>
appreciate any help or suggestions, thanx<BR>
<BR>
RvK<BR>
<BR>
v^v^v  "Oh god, aliens!!!  Oh well, I suppose you want to probe me now huh?"<BR>
"No human, we have reached the limits of what rectal probing can teach us."<BR>
"Oh that's a relief!!"<BR>
"Yes, now open wide and say ahhhh...."  v^v^v<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:54:42<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: body mods<BR>
<BR>
At 05:08 PM 6/14/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Heck, I just remembered a real world mod that (I'm told) is fairly<BR>
>simple. Remember KISS? One of them (Gene Simmons?) is rumored to have<BR>
>had an operation that allowed him to stick his toungue out so far.<BR>
<BR>
My cousin used to date him.  That's *all* Gene.  It's odd, in person he's<BR>
this really relaxed, mellow guy.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:55:36<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
At 06:52 PM 6/14/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>At 10:08 -0400 14/6/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
wrote:<BR>
>>And that square grid has always bugged me, since it makes movement in<BR>
>>combat needlessly complex.  Hexes rule!  (Ah, Craig trained me well...)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Hexes. ACQ. Thoughts? Notes? I think the existing rules should work <BR>
>okay with them.... probably with no modifications...<BR>
<BR>
Since that was what I playtested on mostly, it shouldn't be a problem.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:10:36<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
Kirsten and I find ourselves in an unusual situation, as we've become a<BR>
functioning tri-sexual unit.<BR>
<BR>
WARNING! THOSE WHO SQUICK EASILY DO NOT READ THE REST OF THIS POST!<BR>
<BR>
Due to the lasting effects of cancer, I've lost my sex drive.  You'd be<BR>
amazed the amount of free time my brain has nowadays. :)<BR>
<BR>
Kirsten and I remain together out of our love for each other, but she has<BR>
my blessing to seek out lovers (of either gender) under certain rules.<BR>
<BR>
I've become an Alpha Neuter, with a Female mate and the Male partners as<BR>
secondaries.<BR>
<BR>
Now picture a race that does this.  Males pair for life with a female, and<BR>
become neuter.  After that, the female breeds with other males, while the<BR>
neutral partner raises young and maintains the nest.  Let's have some more<BR>
fun, males aren't fully sentient until their sex drives are removed (quiet<BR>
Kiri!)<BR>
<BR>
You'd have some interesting dynamics here!  Keep a fairly low male-female<BR>
ratio, 1.5:1 say, and you have a situation were many neuters will be<BR>
around, along a small number of tired, yet very happy males.  Raise the<BR>
ratio to 3:1, and it's 2 guys for every girl, plus that neuter back home<BR>
watching the kids.<BR>
<BR>
It would be interesting to see how the males were treated by the sapient<BR>
sexes.  Kept as pets?  On breeding farms?  Traded like show dogs for good<BR>
traits?  How does the Imperium react to this?  The males are *potentially*<BR>
sapient, if exposed to a female that hasn't bonded yet.  Are they citizens?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry      )+(      gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
    http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored with sex."<BR>
	                    - Fry, Futurama<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:16:07<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design <BR>
<BR>
At 04:13 PM 6/14/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Also Peter, what happens is this PC Spouse *fails the appearance roll?*<BR>
>> Does the DM tell Sue to go home that night?<BR>
><BR>
>Sue character may be slightly mad at her husband. She<BR>
>will still be in the session but won't back him up enough<BR>
>to count as a Ally. A 15- roll will fail only when a 16, 17<BR>
>or 18 is rolled. This will happen 10/216 or about 4.6% of the<BR>
>time. It is not unreasonable to think that brothers, spouses,<BR>
>longtime friends, etc might be annoyed with each other 4.6%<BR>
>of the time.<BR>
<BR>
So Sue's ability to roleplay her character is now to be taken away by the<BR>
dice?<BR>
<BR>
>> GM: "OK, Bob you've lifted the memory core out of the computer.  Congrats<BR>
>> guys, you've got the plans for the Star Trigger!"<BR>
>> Sue: "I shoot Bob in the back."<BR>
><BR>
>Than Sue was not "wholly reliable" as per the definition <BR>
>and Bob should not have had to pay for her.<BR>
<BR>
That's my point!!!  You snipped the bit about Sue's "30pt Secret."  All<BR>
along Sue had been a deep cover zhodani agent, working for years inside the<BR>
Imperium.  When the cahnce came to grag the Star Trigger for the Consulate,<BR>
she took it, over her dead husband's body.<BR>
<BR>
So, when Bob goes to pay his 15 points, what do you tell him?  "Oh, you<BR>
don't have to pay that, because Sue isn't *really* an ally."<BR>
<BR>
>> Peter, please explain to me what happens when half the party fails their<BR>
>> mutual appearance rolls.<BR>
><BR>
>They are still their physically but they are slightly annoyed<BR>
>with one another over something that happened off camera and thus<BR>
>are unwilling to back up the other PC first. Thus when they appear<BR>
>they will act in their own interests (or the party's interests if <BR>
>they have Sense of Duty: Friends and close companions).<BR>
<BR>
Once again, *roll* playing.  Peter, I do *not* need the dice to suddenly<BR>
decide that I'm not speaking to another character, especially if it makes<BR>
no sense what soever in context of the game.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, we got Kromm's answer.  Case closed.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2608<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2609</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/14/00 11:12:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 15 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2609<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
Re: Men & Women OT: ( was Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core)<BR>
Re: Robot excel spreadsheet<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
RE: GURPS Character Design<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
RE: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
Claiming Uakye/Regina<BR>
RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
RE: Men & Women OT:<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
Re: body mods<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Re: Long-distance introduction to CT<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:21:29<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
At 03:50 PM 6/14/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>But a leader who was 'married' to another man would probably <BR>
>not be 'seen as stable, secure, and supportive', hence the<BR>
>expectations are heteronormative.<BR>
<BR>
Peter, we, the citizens of San Francisco, just last year almost elected a<BR>
gay man mayor on the strength of *write-in* ballots.  Trust me, nobody is<BR>
ever going to mistake Tom Ammiano for Patton!  The Good Witch of the North,<BR>
perhaps...<BR>
<BR>
The Athenians saw the mostly gay Spartans as secure enough to gamble the<BR>
entire future of Greece on them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
 "Non possum existimare plus quemquem facini"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:27:48<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Men & Women OT: ( was Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core)<BR>
<BR>
At 04:47 PM 6/14/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I prefer my gay men to not be flaming. The smokestains are *impossible*<BR>
>to get out, and the scorch marks are a pain too.<BR>
<BR>
I'm a flaming bisexual!  And Queen of the Universe too!<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, Pride Week cometh and it's over 100 in SF.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:34:34 -0700<BR>
From: Red <red@europa.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Robot excel spreadsheet<BR>
<BR>
on 6/14/00 7:56 PM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Greetings all,<BR>
> <BR>
> Has anyone created a robot design spreadsheet a la the highguard ship design<BR>
> spreadsheet.  I'm on vacation and don't have book 8 with me.  Thanks.<BR>
> <BR>
> Tod<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Well good grief man, what's wrong with you?  You're on vacation with your<BR>
lovely wife and you FORGOT book 8????  Shocked, I am.  Shocked and appalled.<BR>
<BR>
Red  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:39:32 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Following this logic, any time a PC suggests a course of action,<BR>
> he/she/it must make a roll against Leadership to convince the other<BR>
> _PC_s to agree that the proposed course of action is a good idea,<BR>
> _without regard_ to the opinions of the players in question.  For<BR>
> example (borrowing from _The Dirty Dozen_):<BR>
<BR>
A Military superior should have a higher Military Rank and<BR>
should be able to order the other characters around. Given the<BR>
fact that the Dirty Dozen were criminal scum than yes, even then,<BR>
the Superior should probably have to make Leadership or Intimidation<BR>
rolls to get them to do what he wants.<BR>
<BR>
> Jeff: "You know, if we pour gasoline down the ventilation shafts, then<BR>
> throw down a few grenades, I bet that we could kill lots of the enemy<BR>
> soldiers in that underground shelter."  <<rolls 18 on 3d6>><BR>
<BR>
> Stephanie: "You know, Jeff, I was about to say the same thing.  Too bad<BR>
> you failed your Leadership roll.  <<glares at dice, sighs>>  <<looks at<BR>
> GM questioningly, winces, and plays along with Jeff's roll>> <BR>
<BR>
This would be a Reaction Roll. Leadership would simply be a <BR>
modifier. Moreover Stephanie's character might be able to roll <BR>
on her Tactics skill to know that the grenades were a good idea <BR>
despite Jeff's failed roll.<BR>
<BR>
> That's a<BR>
> stupid idea.  Instead, let's beg the Nazis to surrender.  I'll bet that<BR>
> the Nazis will agree to give up, since we're the good guys."  <<also<BR>
> fails Leadership roll>><BR>
<BR>
Thinking that the Nazi's will surrender sounds like a Critical<BR>
Fail on a Psychology roll to me. Given that the Dirty Dozen<BR>
would probably be operating from default on their psychology rolls<BR>
a critical failure is not unlikely. If Steph's charecter first<BR>
fails her Tactics roll and then Crit Fails her PSychology roll <BR>
than this sounds fine to me.<BR>
<BR>
> Joe: "Sorry, guys, but, since your dice rolls failed to convince me that<BR>
> either of you had a good idea, I talked to this prisoner.  He scored a<BR>
> Critical Success on _his_ Persuasion roll, so I'm going to renounce my<BR>
> allegiance to my country, and kill you all with my Thompson submachine<BR>
> gun.  C'est la guerre."<BR>
<BR>
Anyone who let Joe's charecter go on this mission without a <BR>
Sense of Duty (companions), Sense of Duty (the USA), Soldiers <BR>
Code of Honor, Intolerance: Nazi's or at least a Quirk: Afraid <BR>
of the Sergeant (lee Marvin ?) and then lets him talk to a Nazi <BR>
for a while deserves to get whacked. The members of the Dirty <BR>
Dozen were scum. One of the goals of their training was to get <BR>
them to accept their assignment.<BR>
<BR>
> Are _any_ PCs "WHOLLY reliable"?  In a game, can you _guarantee_ that<BR>
> your fellow party members will act in your best interests, even if that<BR>
> PC is married to your own PC?<BR>
<BR>
If the GM can't guarantee that your charecter will always act<BR>
in your interest than they should not be allowed to be your Allies.<BR>
This may mean that all PC Allies must have Fanaticism (your character),<BR>
appropriate mind control spells. psi talents, etc, or your charecter <BR>
must have at least a +12 on his Reaction Roll modifier towards<BR>
the other charecter This may make PC Allies quite scarce.<BR>
<BR>
> > > GM: "OK, Bob you've lifted the memory core out of the computer.  Congrats<BR>
> > > guys, you've got the plans for the Star Trigger!"<BR>
> > > Sue: "I shoot Bob in the back."<BR>
<BR>
> > Than Sue was not "wholly reliable" as per the definition<BR>
> > and Bob should not have had to pay for her.<BR>
<BR>
> _At what point_ does Bob find out that Sue is _not_ "wholly reliable"? <BR>
<BR>
At the end of the session where Bob says to the GM. "I have<BR>
15 unused points on my charecter sheet, can I buy Sue as an<BR>
Ally?." and the GM (who knows Sue's secret) says "No."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:40:34 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
Guys -<BR>
<BR>
this discussion should be over - there was an official ruling from Dr.<BR>
Kromm, and if you don't like it, run it how ever you please IYTU. Perhaps<BR>
this should be taken to a GURPS specific forum, since it long drifted from<BR>
Traveller into quoting large portions of the Gurps Basic Book.<BR>
<BR>
Oh - I see this is just a conspiracy to get the whole book online! ;)<BR>
<BR>
If you don't like GURPS - run CT - If you don't like CT - run MT - but NEVER<BR>
run TNE! ;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dukking and running<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Peter Newman<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:15 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
red@europa.com wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter, your statement seems<BR>
> to imply that whether or not a PC 'backs up' another PC should be<BR>
> dependent on die rolls, rather than roleplaying the characters.  Is<BR>
> that correct?!?<BR>
<BR>
The GURPS rules already establish that charecter behavior<BR>
is sometimes beyond player control. It does not matter if<BR>
Bob really wants his charecter to help out Jim's charecter<BR>
if Bob's charecter has the Cowardice Disadvantage he may not<BR>
be able to help Jim's charecter no matter how much Bob wants<BR>
him to.<BR>
<BR>
Bob has chosen to play a charecter. As such he as a player<BR>
(at least IMHO) has a moral imperative to model what he believes<BR>
that charecters behavior in said situation would be. In GURPS<BR>
charecter behavior will sometoimes be determined by die rolls.<BR>
If this bothers Bob than he sould probably be playing a game<BR>
other than GURPS.<BR>
<BR>
If Bob were playing under most Traveller rules sets his behavior<BR>
would usually be at his discression. When Bob chose to play GURPS<BR>
Traveller instead he lost that freedom. If he does not like it he<BR>
should quit.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:42:39 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
>So if you had a player whose character had Pacifism: Can not<BR>
Kill and he said: "Alphonso will fire his AK-47 full of live<BR>
ammo into the crowd.' you wouldn't have a problem with it? <<BR>
<BR>
Heh.<BR>
I once had a player in a Champions game with a  20 point "Protects<BR>
Bystanders" try to use a homeless person in a shelter he was investigating<BR>
as a human shield.<BR>
After realizing he was serious I asked to see his character sheet to be sure<BR>
it was the same character and he hadn't changed anything then told him he<BR>
never even considers it.<BR>
That was a problem with the player though and not the system.<BR>
Another time one player offed a particularly annoying villain in outright<BR>
cold blood. No one else in the party would have balked had it been in the<BR>
heat of combat, but this was after the guy was helpless and we all had Codes<BR>
Against Killing (GM designed characters, we were all in a bloodthirsty mood<BR>
recently otherwise none of us would have gone near that). Because of this,<BR>
his character was ostracized and eventually became unplayable within our<BR>
group. Again, this was a failure of a player and not the system.<BR>
So is it something in the system you don't like?<BR>
<BR>
>Bob has chosen to play a charecter. As such he as a player<BR>
(at least IMHO) has a moral imperative to model what he believes<BR>
that charecters behavior in said situation would be. In GURPS<BR>
charecter behavior will sometoimes be determined by die rolls.<BR>
If this bothers Bob than he sould probably be playing a game<BR>
other than GURPS.<<BR>
<BR>
I disagree. In a system like Champions (And presumably GURPS and other games<BR>
with similar Disadvantage systems) behavior is determined by the player and<BR>
some of the limitations they choose for themselves may be overcome by<BR>
willpower as determined by a die roll. If it is the other way, then every<BR>
aspect of the characters personality will wind up being reduced to random<BR>
die rolls and all role-playing will go out the window.<BR>
Disadvantages can and should be used as tools for campaign development (I<BR>
recall one D&D character who took a phobia of water and turned most cross<BR>
country trips into A-Team episodes). Sometimes they need to be used as<BR>
weapons against rules abusive players. But they should never be turned into<BR>
weapons against the players doing character development simply because they<BR>
are there.<BR>
<BR>
But it's nearly 1. I'll try more when I'm awake if this thread continues.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:52:30 -0700<BR>
From: Red <red@europa.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
on 6/14/00 9:14 PM, Peter Newman at pnewman@gci.net wrote:<BR>
> The GURPS rules already establish that charecter behavior<BR>
> is sometimes beyond player control. It does not matter if<BR>
> Bob really wants his charecter to help out Jim's charecter<BR>
> if Bob's charecter has the Cowardice Disadvantage he may not<BR>
> be able to help Jim's charecter no matter how much Bob wants<BR>
> him to.<BR>
><BR>
Nothing was mentioned about a disadvantage, Peter.  A character<BR>
disadvantage, whether an official one coming from GURPS generation, or one<BR>
that's been part of the character's makeup chosen by the player or developed<BR>
over time, is of course going to effect the character's behavior.  You<BR>
stated that whether or not a PC 'backed up' another PC was dependent on an<BR>
'Ally' die roll.  Apples and kumquats, sir.<BR>
<BR>
> Bob has chosen to play a charecter. As such he as a player<BR>
> (at least IMHO) has a moral imperative to model what he believes<BR>
> that charecters behavior in said situation would be. In GURPS<BR>
> charecter behavior will sometoimes be determined by die rolls.<BR>
> If this bothers Bob than he sould probably be playing a game<BR>
> other than GURPS.<BR>
> <BR>
> If Bob were playing under most Traveller rules sets his behavior<BR>
> would usually be at his discression. When Bob chose to play GURPS<BR>
> Traveller instead he lost that freedom. If he does not like it he<BR>
> should quit.<BR>
> <BR>
NO, if he's playing under GURPS rules, his behavior may occasionally be<BR>
influenced by die rolls, IF he has a disadvantage (or whatever) that<BR>
applies.  And I'm sure if every single move Bob made was subject to a die<BR>
roll, he WOULD quit, and go on to find people he could actually game with,<BR>
rather than sit around rolling dice for hours.  This is only amusing to<BR>
infants and cats, and then only for short periods of time.  (Unless you've<BR>
told some one the cat and/or infant finds this amusing, in which case the<BR>
cat and/or infant will look at you like you're an insane person.)<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:54:18 -0700<BR>
From: Red <red@europa.com><BR>
Subject: Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/14/00 9:30 PM, Rob Eaglestone at downport@home.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> red@europa.com wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Then again, the GM wasn't anywhere near as good<BR>
>> as our current one, the Evil Tod.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Red<BR>
> <BR>
> Oh yeah baby, I've seen his website.  I've read<BR>
> the logs.  He's a sneaky one, that's for sure.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, and it just keeps on coming.  There will be much gaming this weekend,<BR>
as we have friends coming down to indulge in some mayhem, so stay tuned.<BR>
<BR>
> Where are you guys again?  Maybe I can get a<BR>
> transfer...<BR>
> <BR>
> Rob<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Portland, OR and environs.  Let us know if you're in the area.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:58:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
Portland!<BR>
<BR>
Jeeze - just an 8 hour drive from spokalu..<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
;<<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Red<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:54 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
on 6/14/00 9:30 PM, Rob Eaglestone at downport@home.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> red@europa.com wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Then again, the GM wasn't anywhere near as good<BR>
>> as our current one, the Evil Tod.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Red<BR>
> <BR>
> Oh yeah baby, I've seen his website.  I've read<BR>
> the logs.  He's a sneaky one, that's for sure.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, and it just keeps on coming.  There will be much gaming this weekend,<BR>
as we have friends coming down to indulge in some mayhem, so stay tuned.<BR>
<BR>
> Where are you guys again?  Maybe I can get a<BR>
> transfer...<BR>
> <BR>
> Rob<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Portland, OR and environs.  Let us know if you're in the area.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:56:21 -0500<BR>
From: "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Claiming Uakye/Regina<BR>
<BR>
I am making my claim for Uakye/Regina, if anyone has any canon info that's<BR>
not in G:T Behind the Claw, please drop me a note.<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:00:51 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm..<BR>
<BR>
How many cats peeing would it take to propel a ship at 1 g? Perhaps a new<BR>
drive type here - we already have the kittygrav from the buttered toast -<BR>
cats are getting more and more usefull.. perhaps we should put them on the<BR>
periodic table too.. what is the atomic weight of Kittyionium?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of The Roc<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 6:44 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 5:59:am<BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > 1. Cat is losing target control at the litter box.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, if the cat-haters on the ship wouldn't keep the gravity off in the<BR>
> room with the litter box, the cat would have a chance!<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
No gravity for the cat's requirement?  Ewwww, yuck!  Gives new meaning to<BR>
cat's spray!!<BR>
<BR>
"Look out!!!!!  The cat's taking a piss!!!!!!!!!!!!" <image of urine<BR>
propelled kitty spiralling across the room><BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:50:18 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
At 8:14 PM -0800 6/14/00, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>red@europa.com wrote<BR>
><BR>
>>  Peter, your statement seems<BR>
>>  to imply that whether or not a PC 'backs up' another PC should be<BR>
>>  dependent on die rolls, rather than roleplaying the characters.  Is<BR>
>>  that correct?!?<BR>
><BR>
>The GURPS rules already establish that charecter behavior<BR>
>is sometimes beyond player control. It does not matter if<BR>
>Bob really wants his charecter to help out Jim's charecter<BR>
>if Bob's charecter has the Cowardice Disadvantage he may not<BR>
>be able to help Jim's charecter no matter how much Bob wants<BR>
>him to.<BR>
><BR>
>Bob has chosen to play a charecter. As such he as a player<BR>
>(at least IMHO) has a moral imperative to model what he believes<BR>
>that charecters behavior in said situation would be. In GURPS<BR>
>charecter behavior will sometoimes be determined by die rolls.<BR>
>If this bothers Bob than he sould probably be playing a game<BR>
>other than GURPS.<BR>
><BR>
>If Bob were playing under most Traveller rules sets his behavior<BR>
>would usually be at his discression. When Bob chose to play GURPS<BR>
>Traveller instead he lost that freedom. If he does not like it he<BR>
>should quit.<BR>
<BR>
Sean Punch (kromm) is the final word on rules interpretations and<BR>
he has stated now that PCs are not Allies and Allies are not PCs.<BR>
For those who follow the rules, this is as official as it gets.<BR>
He has been delegated by Steve Jackson, GURPS creator, to answer<BR>
such questions.<BR>
<BR>
So now the issue is settled?<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:11:28 -0700<BR>
From: Red <red@europa.com><BR>
Subject: Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/14/00 9:58 PM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Portland!<BR>
> <BR>
> Jeeze - just an 8 hour drive from spokalu..<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> ;<<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Sorry!  On the other hand, this gaming group started out in Spokane. Many,<BR>
many years ago.  So you never know...<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Red<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:54 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> on 6/14/00 9:30 PM, Rob Eaglestone at downport@home.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> <BR>
>> red@europa.com wrote:<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Then again, the GM wasn't anywhere near as good<BR>
>>> as our current one, the Evil Tod.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Red<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Oh yeah baby, I've seen his website.  I've read<BR>
>> the logs.  He's a sneaky one, that's for sure.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, and it just keeps on coming.  There will be much gaming this weekend,<BR>
> as we have friends coming down to indulge in some mayhem, so stay tuned.<BR>
> <BR>
>> Where are you guys again?  Maybe I can get a<BR>
>> transfer...<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Rob<BR>
>> <BR>
> <BR>
> Portland, OR and environs.  Let us know if you're in the area.<BR>
> <BR>
> Red<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:09:17<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
At 08:03 PM 6/14/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Peter, I am once again unable to accept the assertion that you're not <BR>
>> trolling. Are you sure you wouldn't find GURPs more enjoyable if you <BR>
>> dispensed with the players altogether? That way their little whims <BR>
>> won't conflict with the die rolls...<BR>
><BR>
>So if you had a player whose character had Pacifism: Can not <BR>
>Kill and he said: "Alphonso will fire his AK-47 full of live<BR>
>ammo into the crowd.' you wouldn't have a problem with it? <BR>
<BR>
No, but then again you are arguing apples and oranges.  If Alphonso did do<BR>
that, I'd have a talk with the player, and make him start paying off the<BR>
Pacifism.<BR>
<BR>
But Alphonso's player made a *conscious decision* to violate that disad.<BR>
You are just randomly assigning feelings and tensions based on the dice.<BR>
"You and Mary don't like each other today" "What?  Our characters just got<BR>
married by the Sun Emperor after rescuing my father's spirit from Hell!"<BR>
"Sorry man, the dice have spoken. Today, you can't trust her.<BR>
<BR>
If we were discussing "GURPS: DSM-IV" this style might make a little sense.<BR>
<BR>
>One of the basic ideas behind GURPS is that a character who<BR>
>fails their will roll to avoid a mental Disadvantage _must_<BR>
>act in accordance with his Disadvantage, I am merely extending<BR>
>this train of logic to include Advantages.<BR>
<BR>
Which is not supported anywhere in the rules.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 01:29:34 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
Doug wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>The Athenians saw the mostly gay Spartans as secure enough to gamble the<BR>
>entire future of Greece on them.<BR>
<BR>
The Spartans were anything but happy and carefree. They were Spartans, they<BR>
lived lifestyles which were, um, spartan. They were notoriously surly.<BR>
<BR>
Oh wait, you mean the other definition. Well, it wouldn't be really correct<BR>
to call them that either. The notion of two males of roughly the same age<BR>
and social standing involved in a consensual erotic relationship was<BR>
uncommon (and when it did appear it was usually ridiculed). Drawing a link<BR>
from modern homosexuality to Spartan "homosexuality" is undesirable (the<BR>
closest social category we would have would be "pedophile") and tenuous.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: As has been pointed out, there are many possible ways to pair two<BR>
(or more) people. If you're interested in roleplaying scenarios which<BR>
present moral dilemmas, Spartanesque allies might prove to be problematic.<BR>
Most people in the modern world would see this aspect of ancient Greek life<BR>
as distasteful, to say the least (please keep in mind that I'm referring to<BR>
the age of the younger partner here). A mercenary ticket which places the<BR>
players' characters side by side with such folks could present serious<BR>
problems... especially if the opponents are fighting to end such a practice.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:39:11 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
...<BR>
>My *big* beef with grids in general is why does "15mm" scale  use<BR>
>0.5 inch units?  And why does "25mm"  scale  use  1  inch  units?<BR>
>(Does 2 x 15 = 25?  I think not!)<BR>
<BR>
  Standard base sizes for handling the fiddly little things; 0.5 or<BR>
full inch. Nothing too strange to it :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:28:38 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: body mods<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 05:08 PM 6/14/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Heck, I just remembered a real world mod that (I'm told) is fairly<BR>
>>simple. Remember KISS? One of them (Gene Simmons?) is rumored to have<BR>
>>had an operation that allowed him to stick his toungue out so far.<BR>
><BR>
> My cousin used to date him.  That's *all* Gene.  It's odd, in person he's<BR>
> this really relaxed, mellow guy.<BR>
<BR>
As I understand it, the operation just "cuts" some "attachment points".<BR>
No stretching or the like. It's just free to come farther out of the<BR>
mouth. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:32:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Kirsten and I find ourselves in an unusual situation, as we've become a<BR>
> functioning tri-sexual unit.<BR>
><BR>
> WARNING! THOSE WHO SQUICK EASILY DO NOT READ THE REST OF THIS POST!<BR>
><BR>
> Due to the lasting effects of cancer, I've lost my sex drive.  You'd be<BR>
> amazed the amount of free time my brain has nowadays. :)<BR>
<BR>
Hey, for some of us, once you pass 40 it's a *lot* less important<BR>
anyway. Then there's Hugh Hefner... :-)<BR>
<BR>
> Now picture a race that does this.  Males pair for life with a female, and<BR>
> become neuter.  After that, the female breeds with other males, while the<BR>
> neutral partner raises young and maintains the nest.  Let's have some more<BR>
> fun, males aren't fully sentient until their sex drives are removed (quiet<BR>
> Kiri!)<BR>
><BR>
> You'd have some interesting dynamics here!  Keep a fairly low male-female<BR>
> ratio, 1.5:1 say, and you have a situation were many neuters will be<BR>
> around, along a small number of tired, yet very happy males.  Raise the<BR>
> ratio to 3:1, and it's 2 guys for every girl, plus that neuter back home<BR>
> watching the kids.<BR>
><BR>
> It would be interesting to see how the males were treated by the sapient<BR>
> sexes.  Kept as pets?  On breeding farms?  Traded like show dogs for good<BR>
> traits?  How does the Imperium react to this?  The males are *potentially*<BR>
> sapient, if exposed to a female that hasn't bonded yet.  Are they citizens?<BR>
<BR>
If the Imperium can deal with Hiver larva, they can deal with this.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 02:05:49 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Long-distance introduction to CT<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:32:32 -0500<BR>
>From: richardp <richardp@mac.com><BR>
>Subject: Long-distance introduction to CT<BR>
><BR>
>Hello!<BR>
><BR>
>     I'm gearing up to run a PBEM game for some friends, and while the<BR>
>setting is pretty far removed from the 3I, the CT rules would suit it<BR>
>pretty well.  The catch is that most of the group aren't familiar with<BR>
>CT, and loaning out my rulebooks isn't really an option because of<BR>
>distance.<BR>
><BR>
>     I suppose I could just email them a "handout" summarizing character<BR>
>creation -- but making one would probably entail retyping or OCRing most<BR>
>of book 1, which would be annoying even if it weren't a violation of<BR>
>copyright.  Does anyone have any suggestions?<BR>
><BR>
>  Richard<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Why can't they by the CT reprint book then they have all the rules too.<BR>
With a sugested list price of $28 it's a real gaming bargain (and it looks<BR>
good on the coffe table to boot)<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"I'm all lost in the supermarket,<BR>
   I can no longer shop happily,<BR>
   I came in here for the special offer<BR>
   Guaranteed Personality" - Strummer/Jones (The Clash)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2609<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2610</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 15 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2610<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2602<BR>
RE: GT: Semi-permanent External Tanks (was Drop Tanks)<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design <BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2598<BR>
No Longer GURPS Character Design<BR>
Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
RE: >> Nudity and frying bacon. *ouch*><BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
Vilani Women<BR>
Fiddling with "High Guard"<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:34:18 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
Cheryl wrote:<BR>
> Do other group routinely have PC's killing each other off?<BR>
<BR>
I once played a ship's captain whose solution to the prophecy that one of<BR>
the members of the crew would one day rule the universe as queen of the<BR>
vampires, and was already pretty damn difficult to kill, was to destruct the<BR>
ship with all the players on board.<BR>
<BR>
For some reason they didn't like that idea.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, then there was the idiot who threw the fusion gun to another<BR>
player with the safety off and rolled very poorly on his throw roll.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:47:10 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> At 03:50 PM 6/14/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
> >But a leader who was 'married' to another man would probably <BR>
> >not be 'seen as stable, secure, and supportive', hence the<BR>
> >expectations are heteronormative.<BR>
<BR>
> Peter, we, the citizens of San Francisco, just last year almost elected a<BR>
> gay man mayor on the strength of *write-in* ballots.  Trust me, nobody is<BR>
> ever going to mistake Tom Ammiano for Patton!  The Good Witch of the North,<BR>
> perhaps...<BR>
> The Athenians saw the mostly gay Spartans as secure enough to gamble the<BR>
> entire future of Greece on them.<BR>
<BR>
That's why I said _probably_not_. In other words it is less <BR>
likely, possibly significantly less likely, to happen. Yes it<BR>
does occasionally happen in some places and that's why I said<BR>
probably not instead of will not.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure if the Spartans are really a good example of<BR>
modern cultural attitudes given the fact that its been over<BR>
2,000 years.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:54:13 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2602<BR>
<BR>
Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
> > The reason is that a piece of complex code can be represented by a small<BR>
> > number of intermediate code symbols for the interpreter, which<BR>
> > can then be read, understood, and acted on by the interpreter faster<BR>
> > than the equivalent compiled code can be read and acted on by the<BR>
> > underlying processor.<BR>
><BR>
> Ah, I see. That's kind of a specious argument IMO.<BR>
<BR>
How can it be a specious argument ?<BR>
It's not even an argument, it's just an explanation of why interpreted<BR>
languages can be faster than compiled languages.<BR>
<BR>
> It relies on the<BR>
> interpreted language having a good set of "primitives" or library<BR>
> functions which are themselves written to run very fast.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, you missed one part there. The interpreter need only be as good as<BR>
the compiled code in speed, and the interpreted language will be faster<BR>
because the intermediate code will be read faster as it's more compact.<BR>
<BR>
> Reductio ad absurdum:<BR>
><BR>
> If you have an interpreted language with an intrinsic function<BR>
> "quicksort", and the qsort library function is written in reasonably<BR>
> tight assembly language, then yes, sorting a large block of data is<BR>
> going to be faster than writing the equivalent program in C and using<BR>
> the standard C library qsort; the standard C library is traditionally<BR>
> written in C itself.<BR>
><BR>
> This isn't a faster _language_, it's a faster _library_.<BR>
<BR>
So?<BR>
The result is that code written in an interpreted language can be faster<BR>
than compiled code, which was the point.<BR>
<BR>
If you want to get that pedantic, all compiled code is built from<BR>
"libraries" as well, "libraries" of tiny code fragments held in the<BR>
compiler's substitution tables.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: GT: Semi-permanent External Tanks (was Drop Tanks)<BR>
<BR>
s.imagiconline.com<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :<BR>
><BR>
> > Second: My impression is that canonically, that's exactly what<BR>
> > you did with drop tanks, at least in CT - you sucked up the fuel,<BR>
> > and kicked the damn things off _before_ you went into jump.  Am I<BR>
> > really up to the Z in Alzheimers?<BR>
><BR>
> Nope, that's the way *I* recall it to. And that's *why* they are called<BR>
> *drop* tanks.<BR>
<BR>
Not only do you both recall correctly but I can post the original<BR>
description from JTAS4 to prove it if anyone else has any doubts.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 01:04:09 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design <BR>
<BR>
Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
<BR>
> Sean Punch (kromm) is the final word on rules interpretations and<BR>
> he has stated now that PCs are not Allies and Allies are not PCs.<BR>
> For those who follow the rules, this is as official as it gets.<BR>
> He has been delegated by Steve Jackson, GURPS creator, to answer<BR>
> such questions.<BR>
> <BR>
> So now the issue is settled?<BR>
<BR>
For the purposes of this list, yes. In general no because<BR>
Steve has been known to occasionally change Kromm's rulings.<BR>
Moreover I made it clear that I was not discussing what<BR>
I thought Mr. Punch, or anyone else, thought the letter of<BR>
the Allies paragraph said. I was talking about what I perceived<BR>
to be significant differences between the logic of this paragraph<BR>
and what I considered to be more basic game philosophy as<BR>
expressed earlier in the text.<BR>
<BR>
Moreover Kromm (IMHO) gives too much credence to considerations<BR>
of playability and fun rather than of finding a core game<BR>
philosophy and than ruthlessly pursuing that logic far beyond <BR>
the point where the grease spot is no longer recognizable as a <BR>
dead horse. As Bloo has suggested, this POV of mine might be more <BR>
profitably used in the law than in RPG's.<BR>
<BR>
As this is really a GURPS discussion not a Traveller discussion<BR>
it was probably never appropriate here, as such I will end<BR>
my part of it now. Moreover I will try not to engage in such<BR>
protracted OT: discussions here in the future.<BR>
<BR>
We now resume our regular coverage of how Feudal Technocracies<BR>
should use fighters to shoot down near C rocks navigated by <BR>
female Aslan in comfortable shoes.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:40:09 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2598<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> >Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > The reason is that a piece of complex code can be represented by a small<BR>
> > number of intermediate code symbols for the interpreter, which<BR>
> > can then be read, understood, and acted on by the interpreter faster<BR>
than<BR>
> > the equivalent> compiled code can be read and acted on by the<BR>
> > underlying processor.<BR>
><BR>
> That requires a very efficient "intermediate code" *and* a damn<BR>
> fast parser.<BR>
<BR>
All intermediate codes I've seen are more efficient than native compiled<BR>
code.<BR>
<BR>
Also, interpreters that work on intermediate codes don't really parse the<BR>
code, the parsing is done when your source code is tokenized. From there,<BR>
it's more of an execution of high level "machine instructions" than parsing.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, one can say that Java, some Basics, and the P-System aren't<BR>
'true' interpreted languages, as they all have a "compile" step. In the case<BR>
of some Basics (such as BBC Basic) the compile step (tokenization) occurs on<BR>
reaching the end of editing a line, and the system "de-parses" it to allow<BR>
you to edit again. With the P-system and Java they both have explicit<BR>
compile steps that compile to intermediate code.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect a "true" interpreter (in the sense that the interpeter takes<BR>
text-based source, parses, and then executes it at  runtime ) would never<BR>
gain the efficiencies I was talking about, they only occur with tokenized or<BR>
intermediate code interpreters.<BR>
<BR>
> > I know it may sound unlikely, but from memory the mathematics<BR>
> > are similar to the reasons why things like trellis encoding<BR>
> > can get more than one "bit" of data into a single physical<BR>
> > bit on the line which also sounds unlikely when<BR>
> > you first hear it.<BR>
><BR>
> Except, that's *not* what trellis coding does. It gets more than one<BR>
> bit into one *baud* (signal state).<BR>
<BR>
Oh ho, so you want to have that argument do you ?<BR>
<BR>
A Baud is sending one five bit Baudot code per second !<BR>
It says so in the Electro Telegraphaic Almanac of 1875 !<BR>
<BR>
These silly modern mod-dem technicians who started using it incorrectly<BR>
should be horse-whiipped and forced to ride on the outside of the carriage !<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 03:07:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: No Longer GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
>Guys -<BR>
>this discussion should be over - there was an official ruling from Dr.<BR>
>Kromm, and if you don't like it, run it how ever you please IYTU. Perhaps<BR>
>this should be taken to a GURPS specific forum, since it long drifted from<BR>
>Traveller into quoting large portions of the Gurps Basic Book.<BR>
<BR>
I'm pretty sure that the strictly GURPS-related part of the discussion /is/ <BR>
over.  What we have now is a bunch of people standing around, most of them <BR>
looking rather bemused, as they try to determine if Peter Newman is a <BR>
common troll or some new alien form of gamer life (which eats and breathes, <BR>
because the Rules say you take damage if you don't, but does not excrete, <BR>
as the same Rules are silent on that issue).<BR>
<BR>
He has demonstrated a sense of humor, so he's probably not an AI.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 02:58:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Doug wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>The Athenians saw the mostly gay Spartans as secure enough to gamble the<BR>
>>entire future of Greece on them.<BR>
><BR>
> The Spartans were anything but happy and carefree. They were Spartans, they<BR>
> lived lifestyles which were, um, spartan. They were notoriously surly.<BR>
><BR>
> Oh wait, you mean the other definition. Well, it wouldn't be really correct<BR>
> to call them that either. The notion of two males of roughly the same age<BR>
> and social standing involved in a consensual erotic relationship was<BR>
> uncommon (and when it did appear it was usually ridiculed). Drawing a link<BR>
> from modern homosexuality to Spartan "homosexuality" is undesirable (the<BR>
> closest social category we would have would be "pedophile") and tenuous.<BR>
<BR>
I call your attention to the Theban Sacred Bands....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:24:29 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca wrote:<BR>
> >My *big* beef with grids in general is why does "15mm" scale  use<BR>
> >0.5 inch units?  And why does "25mm"  scale  use  1  inch  units?<BR>
> >(Does 2 x 15 = 25?  I think not!)<BR>
> <BR>
> Standard base sizes for handling the fiddly little things; 0.5 or<BR>
> full inch. Nothing too strange to it :)<BR>
<BR>
So why isn't it called "half inch" scale (and "1 inch" scale  for<BR>
the other)?  Calling  it  "15mm"  scale  is  misleading  ...  and<BR>
potentially irritating.<BR>
<BR>
Back in the early 80s (when owning a home computer was a  distant<BR>
dream and computer graphics were crap anyway) I used to  draw  up<BR>
deckplans by  hand  ...  pens,  rulers,  pencils,  and  patients.<BR>
Imagine spending days loving drafting deckplans on a 15mm  square<BR>
grid only to discover they don't join up properly with  published<BR>
(FASA) plans.  Me and my friends kept measuring and  re-measuring<BR>
my grid ... then on  a  whim  we  measured  the  FASA  deckplans:<BR>
12.5mm!?  That's strange (we thought).<BR>
<BR>
A week later it suddenly dawned  on  us,  we  measured  the  FASA<BR>
deckplans again: 0.5 inches!<BR>
<BR>
"Americans," my Canadian friend informed me, "don't handle metric<BR>
very well.  I think  its  that  base-10  thing  that's  got  them<BR>
confused."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
(Disclaimer: Opinions  credited  to  others  do  not  necessarily<BR>
reflect my own.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 07:17:14 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
Ahh yes, the Sacred bands, formed from lovers..Fierce warriors for their<BR>
time.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 6:58 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Doug wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>The Athenians saw the mostly gay Spartans as secure enough to gamble the<BR>
> >>entire future of Greece on them.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The Spartans were anything but happy and carefree. They were Spartans,<BR>
they<BR>
> > lived lifestyles which were, um, spartan. They were notoriously surly.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Oh wait, you mean the other definition. Well, it wouldn't be really<BR>
correct<BR>
> > to call them that either. The notion of two males of roughly the same<BR>
age<BR>
> > and social standing involved in a consensual erotic relationship was<BR>
> > uncommon (and when it did appear it was usually ridiculed). Drawing a<BR>
link<BR>
> > from modern homosexuality to Spartan "homosexuality" is undesirable (the<BR>
> > closest social category we would have would be "pedophile") and tenuous.<BR>
><BR>
> I call your attention to the Theban Sacred Bands....<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:30:32 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail sneadj@mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Yay! An anthropologist!<BR>
<BR>
Or to be a bit more correct, someone who got to being ABD in <BR>
Anthropology and then gave it all up to become a full-time freelance <BR>
RPG writer.  My 2nd book was doing shamans for Ars Magica, the <BR>
same research I'd being doing before, but I didnt have to footnote <BR>
and I could make stuff up :)<BR>
 <BR>
> > One trivial example:  Try to pickup a living, white,  squirming<BR>
> > beetle grub or termite larva and eat it, while it is still alive.<BR>
> > Most Westerners will be unable to do so, and many of those that<BR>
> > manage to do so will become physically ill. In some cultures such<BR>
> > things are delicacies.  If one such person's taste treat is almost<BR>
> > literally impossible for another person to eat,  consider how else<BR>
> > culture shapes us.<BR>
> <BR>
> I *think* I could do that, but it'd be an effort...<BR>
<BR>
And, there is no way you'd enjoy the experience.  Much like the <BR>
fact that in parts of Ancient Greece much of the male population <BR>
was socialized so that homosexuality was what they did for <BR>
recreation and heterosex was only for procreation.  <BR>
 <BR>
> Actually, if you are willing to take the time, I think a list of not<BR>
> just counter examples, but examples of how other cultures handle<BR>
> almost *anything* that we take for granted in *different* ways would<BR>
> be a great resource. It'd help us create *alien* human cultures. <BR>
<BR>
Hmm, random examples:<BR>
 <BR>
A culture in Africa where every misfortune and illness is believed to <BR>
be caused by some form of human-created black magic or ill-<BR>
wishing.  Find the culprit in time and you can often make the bad <BR>
thing stop (not a nice place to live).<BR>
<BR>
Paleolithic Saharan rock paintings (back when the Saharan was <BR>
verdant Savannah) show both men and women actively hunting <BR>
large game together.  <BR>
<BR>
Recent Sythian archeology revealed that the Amazon legends were <BR>
in part true.  In one large settlement there was a separate <BR>
cemetery for women who were buried with full warrior goods and <BR>
honors who seem to often have died by violence.  These women do <BR>
not seem to have lived apart from the rest of the group, but they <BR>
were warriors.  Many were teenagers, one supposition is that they <BR>
used teenage girls as shock troops.  Data on this find is quite new, <BR>
so there will likely be much more data to follow.<BR>
<BR>
Or in a more industrial but in some ways equally exotic bent, in pre-<BR>
PRC Hong Kong, and to an extent in Japan, status (except for the <BR>
*very* rich) is not based upon ownership of property or in Hong <BR>
Kong even usually upon ownership of automobiles.  In Hong Kong, <BR>
no one but the astoundingly rich owned such things Instead, it is <BR>
based upon ownership of the correct brands of small consumer <BR>
goods like electronics and clothes.  Very different from the US and <BR>
most of Western Europe where land your dwelling = wealth & <BR>
status.  <BR>
<BR>
Add in the fact that even the middle class lived with multiple people <BR>
to a room and you have a very different society from the US, where <BR>
socially defined  privacy replaces actual privacy.  I would expect <BR>
cultures to be similar on many of the pop A high tech worlds of the <BR>
Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
How about cultures with voluntary human sacrifice like in the Aztec <BR>
ball games (the *winning* team was sacrificed and both teams <BR>
knew this before the match started)?   <BR>
<BR>
Throw in cultures where dress requirements go everything from full <BR>
strict Muslim female garb to nearly nothing to further confuse <BR>
things.  In college I  saw female Muslim students from Malaysia <BR>
wearing what amounted to a tailored sheet with small holes for <BR>
eyes (with a thin veil across it) & long sleeves (the sheet also went <BR>
nearly to the floor).  You could add in gloves for even more <BR>
coverage.  OTOH, in some groups living in the Amazon jungle, men <BR>
and women walk around wearing nothing but a belt (which men tie <BR>
their foreskins to <shudder>).     <BR>
    <BR>
> I still maintain that dealing with human cultures that differ from<BR>
> your own will be *harder* than dealing with aliens, because *most*<BR>
> people will have enough flexibility to not *expect* aliens to act like<BR>
> they do.<BR>
<BR>
Very true.<BR>
 <BR>
> But when confronted with "fellow humans" they will expect *exactly*<BR>
> that.<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW, as I understand it, an incest taboo is essentially a "survival<BR>
> trait" for a culture. They are *much* more likely to survive *with*<BR>
> one, than without one.<BR>
<BR>
Biologically, I doubt it.  First off, no other primates have such a <BR>
taboo and they don't suffer any noticable problems from inbreeding. <BR>
Except among incredibly small populations the biological dangers <BR>
of inbreeding are quite small unless that's *all* you do.  OTOH, <BR>
socially exogamy (marrying outside the group) is wonderful.  <BR>
Neighboring groups who could easily be potential enemies are now <BR>
members of you extended families and so at least potential allies.<BR>
My guess is that this taboo is purely cultural, but very widespread <BR>
because it is both very old and extremely useful.  <BR>
<BR>
This is especially likely since there is proof of traditions lasting up <BR>
to 20,000 years (yes, I said 20K years, one example being special <BR>
stones which are revered in a isolated section of Northern <BR>
Pakistan.  Altars involving these stones were found up to 20,000 <BR>
years ago, and similar altars have been in use ever since, up to the <BR>
present day.  The meanings of these could easily have changed, <BR>
but the practice remains the same.  Other examples of similar <BR>
phenomena exist, but I'd have to look them back up.  <BR>
<BR>
Similarly, the "maternal instinct" in primates is learned behavior.  <BR>
female primates reared w/o other females to teach them, lack all <BR>
knowledge of and most inclination to perform infant care.  *At best* <BR>
if they give birth their infant is at first an interesting new toy and <BR>
then a boring old one (and soon thereafter usually dead).   <BR>
Therefore, it's a good guess that current female nurturing behavior <BR>
among humans is a cultural transmission which extends back to <BR>
our prehuman ancestors, and is therefore a *multi-million* year <BR>
cultural transmission.  Culture is powerful stuff.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 06:32:39 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
anunnaki wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> ><BR>
> > No gravity for the cat's requirement?  Ewwww, yuck!  Gives new meaning to<BR>
> > cat's spray!!<BR>
> ><BR>
> > "Look out!!!!!  The cat's taking a piss!!!!!!!!!!!!" <image of urine<BR>
> > propelled kitty spiralling across the room><BR>
> ><BR>
> > -- The Roc<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> ROTFLMAO !!!!! OK, please, I can't stop cracking up when I get this<BR>
> TERRIFYING image in my head :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Hey, how come urine-propelled cats don' t appear in FF&S ???<BR>
<BR>
One doesn't need to design and build cats; they do an excellent job of<BR>
that when placed in appropriate pairs.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:42:00 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
> >Remember KISS? One of them (Gene Simmons?) is rumored to have<BR>
> >had an operation that allowed him to stick his toungue out so far.<BR>
> As I understand it, the operation just "cuts" some "attachment points".<BR>
> No stretching or the like. It's just free to come farther out of the<BR>
> mouth. <BR>
<BR>
The operation is an extension of the frenulotomy used to correct<BR>
'tongue-tie' [the frenulum is the prominent attachment described by BZA<BR>
in an earlier post]. Hopefully the surgeon doesn't overdo it so that you<BR>
can swallow your tongue, or spit it out at someone when you recover from<BR>
your anaesthetic.<BR>
<BR>
Body modifications? Plenty of them described in the gaming and other<BR>
literature. IMHO, a lot of them make very little sense as described,<BR>
e.g. :-<BR>
- - having an auxiliary heart is useless when there's no blood to pump, or<BR>
a critical artery or vein is divided ;<BR>
- - hypercoagulability is going to lead to extremity loss from embolism<BR>
from incidental knocks before it's lifesaving in combat (most traumatic<BR>
bleeding will require intervention, even if it's just the application of<BR>
direct pressure) ;<BR>
- - lung filters would have to be nanotech miracles to permit adequate gas<BR>
exchange ;<BR>
- - liver enhancement should be directed towards specific agents (but then<BR>
it would be much easier to vaccinate against most drugs ; enhanced<BR>
alcohol metabolism would generate a very large acid load which couldn't<BR>
be easily 'blown off' from the lungs) ;<BR>
- - enhanced muscle and bone needs to be planned very carefully to avoid<BR>
unwanted structural problems. Sure, you can lift a car with those arms,<BR>
but you'll snap your spine like a cinnamon stick... you can run 60km/h<BR>
with the legs, but you'll shred the muscles of your trunk after more<BR>
than a minute... if your lungs and heart don't give out first.<BR>
Etc.<BR>
<BR>
The problem seems to be that modifications are considered in isolation,<BR>
and 'knock-on' effects aren't well explored.<BR>
<BR>
I agree with Leonard that implants (feathers, fur, fins, other bits)<BR>
will really take off once inflammation and tissue repair are figured<BR>
out. The problems I see there are connecting nerve and blood supply, and <BR>
training the brain to recognise and use the new part.<BR>
<BR>
So the surgery/regen clinic is only the first bit. Is it possible to<BR>
cram the required physical therapy into a convenient time frame (virtual<BR>
reality? deep hypnopaedia?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 05:52:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: >> Nudity and frying bacon. *ouch*><BR>
<BR>
IIRC that it was in a adventure - possibly Knightfall or Hard Times or one<BR>
of that ilk - they were passengers on the PC's ship...<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Glenn Goffin<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 4:37 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: >> Nudity and frying bacon. *ouch*><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2597<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: Various forms of body modification are explored in<BR>
>the real world, especially in the last decade (maybe two<BR>
>now) as a result of the various facets of what can loosely<BR>
<BR>
>be called the "neo-tribalism" movement.  Body-piercing,<BR>
>tattoing and scarification are the common forms today.<BR>
What<BR>
>new technologies might appear in body modification?<BR>
<BR>
I read once in some Traveller thing (Traveller Chronicle?<BR>
Travellers' Digest? somewhere like that) about some<BR>
passengers on a ship who were from a society where it was<BR>
considered dirty to have a body.  They would replace their<BR>
bodies, except their heads, with shiny steel robotics,<BR>
wired into their nervous systems.  For fun, they liked to<BR>
throw each other around, because they were very strong and<BR>
very hard to damage.  It seems to me that they would<BR>
replace as much of their bodies as they (or their families)<BR>
could afford, starting at an early age.<BR>
<BR>
That struck me as really extremely weirdly alien, which was<BR>
the point of the exercise for the writer (as explained in<BR>
the accompanying notes).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:53:58 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
>Imagine two hi-pop worlds four parsecs apart. The jump-1 trader takes <BR>
>forty days to do this run (4 jumps, plus three days transit per world at<BR>
>four worlds to get to the refuelling point, refuel and back out to the <BR>
>100 diameter limit). The jump-2 trader takes twenty days (2 jumps, plus <BR>
>three days transit at two worlds). <BR>
><BR>
>Thus, the jump-2 trader makes twice as many runs in a year. This more <BR>
>than covers the extra costs of the jump-2 trader. <BR>
<BR>
I think you're pushing these ships into the wrong market niche.<BR>
<BR>
The Free Trader is a *small* ship.  It doesn't always have to go to high-<BR>
pop worlds to make profits, it's small enough to make money stopping at<BR>
just about every two-bit smaller world - that's the whole point of it.  <BR>
It's not a matter of the Far Trader making twice as many runs a year.<BR>
They're both making nearly as many stops, but while the Far Trader is <BR>
hauling expenses, the Free Trader is - with shorter hops - hauling <BR>
*profits*.  <BR>
<BR>
For a four parsec direct run between two high-pop worlds, both the<BR>
Free Trader and Far Trader are going to get blown away by the big<BR>
Jump-4 (or 2XJump-2) cargo liners that this long term profit-making<BR>
trade route will develop.  <BR>
<BR>
Ian again:<BR>
>Jump-1 traders are, generally speaking, only viable to do certain <BR>
>specific runs,<BR>
<BR>
Like any run involving a thinly-inhabited Jump-1 main in the same<BR>
area as high-pop worlds.<BR>
<BR>
>and to do in-system coasting (for example, resupplying <BR>
>that mining station on one of Saturn's moons). <BR>
<BR>
IMO this is better performed by spaceships, rather than starships.<BR>
Time is money, but there's a limit to how much time you can save<BR>
and call it money.  <BR>
<BR>
This will also depend on how big the system is.  Binary star systems <BR>
with planets around each star would be especially good candidates for <BR>
such "Jump Coasting", but I don't see it in a system where nothing is<BR>
farther away than, say, the Mercury-Mars run, or even an Earth-Jupiter<BR>
run.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:03:26 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
What role do women play in Vilani society?<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
- -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:24:54 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Fiddling with "High Guard"<BR>
<BR>
Having grown rather dissatisfied with the "T4" version of "Fire,<BR>
Fusion, and Steel" (I love the level of detail it offers, but find<BR>
its lack of guidelines and examples frustrating), I've decided to<BR>
try to extend the starship design rules in "Book 5: High Guard" to <BR>
cover reaction drives (since I really like HEPlaR, and find thruster<BR>
plates aesthetically distasteful).  <BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, I'm going to have to figure out how to calculate the<BR>
masses of "High Guard" starships to make this work properly.  I've<BR>
narrowed the problem down to two regions: weapons, and "the bridge."<BR>
Using the examples offered in the "Standard Starship Design System,"<BR>
I've estimated the average densities of spinal mount meson guns and<BR>
and particle accelerators, but I'm having difficulty with weapons <BR>
mounted in bays and turrets.  Can anyone tell me how massive these<BR>
things are?  "The bridge" is an even bigger problem, since it doesn't<BR>
really correspond with any particular "Fire, Fusion, and Steel" <BR>
component.  Any help would be gratefully appreciated.  Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
                                                      - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2610<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 15 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2611<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
RE: Starship Quirks<BR>
RE: Freetraders vs airliners<BR>
RE: Long-distance introduction to CT<BR>
RE: Robot excel spreadsheet<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
RE: Starship Quirks<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
Re: No Longer GURPS Character Design<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Deckplans<BR>
Re: No Longer GURPS Character Design<BR>
Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
Near-C rocks!<BR>
Re: Vilani Women<BR>
RE: Men & Women OT:<BR>
Re: Near-C rocks!<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design <BR>
Re: Near-C rocks!<BR>
Re: Spacing the ship's cat<BR>
OT Personal Request<BR>
Re: Roc: Men & Women OT:<BR>
Re: Roc: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:17:56 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
<BR>
Moin Katharine Whitchurch,<BR>
<BR>
> This isnt going to work. What you do is have the shipper enter into two<BR>
> contracts - one to buy the cargo from the customer at <price>, and the<BR>
> second to sell to the customer at the destination world at <price plus<BR>
> shipping cost>. This way, according to the paperwork, the cargo is owned by<BR>
> the shipper for the duration, and is thus speculative cargo, not freight, so<BR>
> the freight laws do not apply.<BR>
<BR>
  I was talking about freight - not cargo - and my handwave was, that the<BR>
  imperial credit is backed by the imperial subsidary freight capacity.<BR>
<BR>
  This mean that an 1kCr can buy freight space of 1dt for exactly one<BR>
  parsec regardless on any imperial subsidary trader/liner. And anybody<BR>
  can buy a high passage ticket for 10kCr per jump on those liners also.<BR>
<BR>
> The problem is that the vast majority of the Imperial economy is on the<BR>
> hi-pop worlds. Thus, the vast majority of Imperial trade is between these<BR>
> hi-pop worlds. The mains are merely incidental.<BR>
<BR>
  The typical Imperial subsidary liner is for this reason capable of jump 3.<BR>
<BR>
  The availability of jump 2 liners gave the early Sylean Trade Federation<BR>
  an advantage over other starfaring societies. So while Sylean credit was<BR>
  interchangeble with Vilani credit, as long as Sylea had been TL:10, the<BR>
  decission to base the credit on dt/jump and not on dt/parsec increased<BR>
  the strength of the Sylean credit once they estabilshed the first the<BR>
  jump 2 routes for their liners.<BR>
<BR>
  The economic idea behind subsidary fleet is :<BR>
<BR>
  - currently any staate in the world that has a tradefleet and maintains<BR>
    shipyards, is subsidize those shipyards and fleet by a large fraction.<BR>
    Without this subsidy shipowners wont make any profit and go bankrupt.<BR>
    This will cause lack of import/export capacity for those countries,<BR>
    who therefor continue to subsidize ships and shipyards.<BR>
<BR>
  - my other important handwave is that no economic system could sustain<BR>
    a techlevel greater than its population level without external trade.<BR>
<BR>
  So not only the stability of the imperial credit is backed by the<BR>
  subsidary fleet, but also the complete economic stability of the<BR>
  imperium. The lack of freight capacity, caused the long night and<BR>
  also caused most most systems to fail sustaining their technology<BR>
  during the rebellion long before virus arived, IMTU.<BR>
<BR>
  I call, even with those two handwaves, CT,MT,TNE and T4 trade broken,<BR>
  once we shift from artifical prices for subsidary freight to speculative<BR>
  trade. Free Traders have to rely on speculative trade for doing any profit<BR>
  as they can never compete with subsidary freight rates. But bulk cargo like<BR>
  those given in the rules, will not make a good profit, so its necessary to<BR>
  multiply those given prices per dt by a random factor.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:37:18 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
I seem to remember an earlier thread related to Traveller <BR>
starship economics - something about the GM not being allowed to <BR>
create special events that would increase or decrease a player group's<BR>
trade profits, as the space for such events didn't appear on the trade <BR>
tables or encounter tables.<BR>
<BR>
Reading more restrictiveness into the game than the rules intend<BR>
seems to be a hobby with Mr. Newman. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:14:10 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship Quirks<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin writes:<BR>
>"Bad news, captain.  The ship we've commandeered was last<BR>
>owned by a Droyne oytrip, and they've retrofitted<BR>
>everything to their own specifications."<BR>
>"Including the freshers?"<BR>
>"Afraid so, sir."<BR>
<BR>
	Anyone see the film _Ice Pirates_?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:24:06 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Freetraders vs airliners<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody writes:<BR>
>The way an airline prices its seats is totally wacky and probably requires a<BR>
>PHD in accounting to decipher the actual numbers they use, but the basic<BR>
>idea is to fill as many seats as possible for each leg of the trip.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>The bottom line is money obviously and the system has evolved into a model<BR>
>that actually can translate fairly well for the TU.  Its a feeder system.<BR>
>Smaller companies serve the smaller cities and towns, then regional airlines<BR>
>feed them to bigger cities and Nationals cover particular areas well, but<BR>
>the big cities are all covered by the large powerful companies, that is<BR>
>flights between large cities.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I think that the airline industry would be a good model of how the<BR>
	star-laned might be organized, but I'm not sure that the pricing<BR>
	system would be the same.  For one thing, the lag in communications<BR>
	in the TU would make planning your routes and pricing your passages<BR>
	to maximize full staterooms more difficult.  I would also imagine<BR>
	that independant pilots flying around the fringes of the big system<BR>
	price rather differently.  Anyway, I don't know much about it and<BR>
	will stick to a simple system (at least until my PCs get much more<BR>
	involved in this sort of buisness).<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:31:03 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Long-distance introduction to CT<BR>
<BR>
Richard writes:<BR>
>I'm gearing up to run a PBEM game for some friends, and while the <BR>
>setting is pretty far removed from the 3I, the CT rules would suit it <BR>
>pretty well.  The catch is that most of the group aren't familiar with <BR>
>CT, and loaning out my rulebooks isn't really an option because of <BR>
>distance.<BR>
>I suppose I could just email them a "handout" summarizing character <BR>
>creation -- but making one would probably entail retyping or OCRing most <BR>
>of book 1, which would be annoying even if it weren't a violation of <BR>
>copyright.  Does anyone have any suggestions?<BR>
<BR>
	The easiest approach might be to roll up characters for them, perhaps<BR>
	after asking them what sort of character they want to run.  Another<BR>
	might be to send them the skill tables only and roll the character up<BR>
	by phone (I have done something similar to this, but I have a 'cap'<BR>
	on long-distance phone charges within Canada).  The skill lists are the<BR>
	slowest thing to cover on the phone, so it helps if they have a chance<BR>
	to peruse them ahead of time and scan them during the role-up sequence.<BR>
	Perhaps a brief summary of the career pluses and minuses would be sent<BR>
	as well.  Good luck!<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:32:38 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Robot excel spreadsheet<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
>Has anyone created a robot design spreadsheet a la the highguard ship design<BR>
>spreadsheet.  I'm on vacation and don't have book 8 with me.  Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
	I have one filed away somewhere, I can look for it tonight.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:10:13 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Biologically, I doubt it.  First off, no other primates have such a <BR>
> taboo and they don't suffer any noticable problems from inbreeding. <BR>
> Except among incredibly small populations the biological dangers <BR>
> of inbreeding are quite small unless that's *all* you do.<BR>
<BR>
Well they do have an effective anti-incest (at least anti brother-sister<BR>
or mother-son ) strategy.<BR>
<BR>
Most, if not all primate groupings force younger males either out of the<BR>
group or to the (non-breeding) fringes of the group; at least with chimps<BR>
and gorillas, there tends to be an Alpha male who is the only breeder,<BR>
with at most a few other near-Alphas who can get away with breeding when<BR>
the Alpha isn't looking. Alphas also tend to kill offspring who aren't<BR>
theirs.<BR>
<BR>
Their sons tend to go off and join other groups or found their own, if<BR>
they can find enough others to go with them.<BR>
<BR>
Daughters tend to stay with the same group as their mothers, and will<BR>
likely breed with their father. (this is the root of maternal teaching,<BR>
since a mother chimp who teaches her daughter to raise babies well will<BR>
have her genes passed on more often. Or, rather, the genes in a good<BR>
teacher will see themselves passed on with higher frequency...it's all<BR>
still the genes, John ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Males pushed out of other groups will join up with other groups, and may<BR>
slowly work their way up to Alpha themselves, so in the main the<BR>
inbreeding may last, at most, three generations, since sons of Alphas tend<BR>
to be the aggressive ones who are run out of the group, and an Alpha only<BR>
stays there so long before he's either pushed out of the top spot or dies.<BR>
Father:daughter:granddaughter inbreeding is unlikely to raise many serious<BR>
defects in wild populations, particularly if every three generations or<BR>
less the fathers genes come from outside the group.<BR>
<BR>
Where inbreeding gets bad, as John states, is when you have many<BR>
generations of a small population. Three groups in a geographically<BR>
isolated area are going to be pretty damn interbred in 30 or so<BR>
generations. Even without father: daughter incest, you're going to get a<BR>
high concentration of genetic material.<BR>
<BR>
Note: this is a 'National Geographic/Scientific American' level of<BR>
knowledge; current trends in primate behavior may vary.<BR>
<BR>
Note 2: This is also pretty much (on a gross simplification level) how<BR>
_all_ group living mammals work, from lions to elk. Daughters stay and<BR>
mate with Daddy, sons go off, and find other groups. Humans are unique<BR>
(afaik) in that we don't drive off sons from the tribe, which has lead to<BR>
the formation of the incest taboo.<BR>
<BR>
Even in mammals who don't live in groups and/or mate in harem fashion,<BR>
such as bears, daughters tend to stay closer to the mother than sons do.<BR>
Again, this is the 'maternal instinct genes' in action. Their genes get<BR>
passed on more successfully.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:52:30 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship Quirks<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Ian Ferguson [mailto:ian@vax2.concordia.ca]<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 3:14 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Starship Quirks<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Glenn Goffin writes:<BR>
> >"Bad news, captain.  The ship we've commandeered was last<BR>
> >owned by a Droyne oytrip, and they've retrofitted<BR>
> >everything to their own specifications."<BR>
> >"Including the freshers?"<BR>
> >"Afraid so, sir."<BR>
> <BR>
> 	Anyone see the film _Ice Pirates_?<BR>
> <BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, yes... <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:56:24 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
...<BR>
>> Standard base sizes for handling the fiddly little things; 0.5 or<BR>
>> full inch. Nothing too strange to it :)<BR>
><BR>
>So why isn't it called "half inch" scale (and "1 inch" scale  for<BR>
>the other)?  Calling  it  "15mm"  scale  is  misleading  ...  and<BR>
>potentially irritating.<BR>
<BR>
  `Cuz all the mini's people know what it refers to :><BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>(FASA) plans.  Me and my friends kept measuring and  re-measuring<BR>
>my grid ... then on  a  whim  we  measured  the  FASA  deckplans:<BR>
>12.5mm!?  That's strange (we thought).<BR>
<BR>
  "Measure twice, cut once". Or, "What do you mean that it doesn't fit,<BR>
it's the only one we had, and you can't reverse the modifications<BR>
that you made in attempting to make it fit?" Hmm, kitty make room in<BR>
the air-lock for the second engineer? :><BR>
<BR>
>"Americans," my Canadian friend informed me, "don't handle metric<BR>
>very well.  I think  its  that  base-10  thing  that's  got  them<BR>
>confused."<BR>
<BR>
  Hey, that's a separate issue...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 07:55:39 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: No Longer GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> What we have now is a bunch of people standing around,<BR>
> as they try to determine if Peter Newman is a <BR>
> common troll or some new alien form of gamer life (which eats and breathes, <BR>
> because the Rules say you take damage if you don't,<BR>
<BR>
Some poorly written games fail to establish this fact.<BR>
For some unknown reason they make the foolish assumption<BR>
that the GM and/or the players would realize that most<BR>
charecters need to eat and breathe.<BR>
<BR>
> but does not excrete, <BR>
> as the same Rules are silent on that issue).<BR>
<BR>
Warning Slightly Explicit Biological Comments follow.<BR>
<BR>
That depends on the rules set in question. In Champions<BR>
Does not Excrete is a life support power (3 points IIRC)<BR>
but this topic is not adequately covered in GURPS. GURPS<BR>
establishes, with the Sanitized Metabolism Advantage, that<BR>
charecters do need to excrete solids and liquids and GURPS<BR>
Cyberpunk includes the bionic bladder (1 point) which reduces<BR>
required frequency of urination to once per day. I'm not<BR>
aware of any Traveller rules set that covers this area but its<BR>
necessity is established in the space suit descriptions,<BR>
deck plans, etc. I really don't see this sort of thing as<BR>
important in most RPG's.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:55:56 PDT<BR>
From: "Erik Shumaker" <attendolo@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
The Phillipine question is:Would they have democratic elections without 1. <BR>
The desire to emulate the biggest mofo<BR>
2. The biggest mofo _really_ leaning toward a world democracy or republic<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
>Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
>To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
>Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:47:25 -0700<BR>
><BR>
>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
><BR>
> >>    All governments can trace their foundation to the biggest & badest<BR>
>mofo<BR>
> >>out there.  The Current English Queen can trace her government back to<BR>
> >>William the Conquer.  And, what did William do to gain his crown, invade <BR>
>&<BR>
> >>take over England.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Except of course, for our country, which wasn't that big or bad, but had<BR>
> >the advantage of having friends in high places and hitting England when<BR>
> >they had other concerns.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Hey, George Washington was a pretty big & bad mofo.  Doug, I know I<BR>
>would not want to face him, even with your Mega-Penguin Man-Portable <BR>
>Cannon.<BR>
><BR>
> >The current, democratically-elected of the Philippines also does not fit<BR>
> >this mode.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Of course not, it is democratically-elected.<BR>
><BR>
>     I bid you peace.<BR>
><BR>
>Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
>ICQ # 8973001<BR>
>legate@futureone.com<BR>
><BR>
>"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
>places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
>passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:35:28<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
At 11:24 AM 6/15/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>So why isn't it called "half inch" scale (and "1 inch" scale  for<BR>
>the other)?  Calling  it  "15mm"  scale  is  misleading  ...  and<BR>
>potentially irritating.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, the 15mm referes to the height of a man sized figure.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:10:34 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> And that square grid has always bugged me, since it makes movement in<BR>
> combat needlessly complex.  Hexes rule!  (Ah, Craig trained me well...)<BR>
<BR>
Square grids can easily be used with the following great approximation:<BR>
<BR>
Straight travel from one square to another: 2 movement points<BR>
Diagonal travel: 3 movement points (theoretically about 2.8+)<BR>
<BR>
A movement point could be a yard, meter, whatever... it doesn't matter.<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:07:58<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: No Longer GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
At 07:55 AM 6/15/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Some poorly written games fail to establish this fact.<BR>
>For some unknown reason they make the foolish assumption<BR>
>that the GM and/or the players would realize that most<BR>
>charecters need to eat and breathe.<BR>
<BR>
Yet you have made it clear that in your view, the rules are paramount.  So<BR>
since Classic Traveller had no rules for how long it takes to suffocate in<BR>
the vacuum of space, characters don't need to worry about it.<BR>
<BR>
Of course with a little common sense from the GM and players, this is not a<BR>
problem.  But you have steadfastly refused to apply common sense in these<BR>
arguments, even to the point of not accepting the word of the GURPS Line<BR>
Editor on a GURPS rule question!<BR>
<BR>
Peter, do me a favor.  Don't buy ACQ.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:15:05 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
>I call your attention to the Theban Sacred Bands....<<BR>
<BR>
In what respect?<BR>
I have seen the Sacred Bands referred to as both incredible fighters and<BR>
worthless degenerates (in context, not from a 20th century viewpoint).<BR>
Weren't they rather derided for not desiring any heterosexual contact?<BR>
(Except possibly for rape during wars, I see conflicting accounts on that so<BR>
I am not sure.)<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
Who has written up Sacred Bands for Greyhawk and wonders if there are any<BR>
running around in the 3I.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:16:56<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Near-C rocks!<BR>
<BR>
Be the first on your block to rock Earth!  Or Mars!<BR>
<BR>
http://janus.astro.umd.edu/astro/impact.html<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:27:00 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
James Pearson wrote:<BR>
> What role do women play in Vilani society?<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, the same role as the men.<BR>
<BR>
A civilization evolving in such an unforgiving place as Vland could<BR>
probably not afford not to have all its members trained for as many<BR>
situations as possible. If we need to gather food, everyone gathers<BR>
food. If we need to hunt, everyone hunts. If we need to file five copies<BR>
of Form 18B12, everyone files five copies of Form 18B12.<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:27:08 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<snipped my own comment about Spartan sexuality><BR>
<BR>
>I call your attention to the Theban Sacred Bands....<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure how to respond to this, Leonard. Once my attention's been<BR>
called to the Sacred Band of Thebes, what should I be looking for? The first<BR>
thing that strikes me is that the polis of Thebes and the polis of Sparta<BR>
were not the same, which I mention only because I was writing about Sparta.<BR>
However, once we get down to the nitty gritty, most of the writing about the<BR>
Sacred Band of Thebes is based on a few passages from Plutarch, who was<BR>
writing several centuries after the unit ceased to exist. What Plutarch<BR>
writes, if my memory serves me, is that some people say the Sacred Band was<BR>
your typical sacred band (an elite unit supported by the polis), while<BR>
others say that the Sacred Band was made up of paired lovers. He then goes<BR>
on to explain why a band of lovers would be considered effective. Some of<BR>
what has been written about the homosexual nature of the Sacred Band of<BR>
Thebes is based on an earlier work, which I unfortunately can't recall off<BR>
the top of my head, which dealt with the Sacred Band's sexuality in passing.<BR>
This other source does line up with Plutarch's second possibility to some<BR>
degree.<BR>
<BR>
Frequently, individuals wishing to prove that something similar to modern<BR>
homosexuality existed in Ancient Greece will quote from or focus on the<BR>
second possibility, or someone will simply say something like, "It's a well<BR>
known fact that the Sacred Band was made up of homosexuals," or, "Plutarch<BR>
tells us that the sacred band was made up of homosexuals." Very rarely is it<BR>
mentioned that Plutarch is giving his readers two possibilities.<BR>
<BR>
So now that my attention has been called to the Sacred Band, what am I<BR>
supposed to take from it exactly? There was a military unit which existed<BR>
for something like 30 years which was said to have consisted of 300 men. The<BR>
unit was not Spartan (indeed, the unit fought against Sparta during the<BR>
Pelopennesian War if my memory serves me). It has been suggested that the<BR>
Sacred Band of Thebes was made up of male lovers. I don't believe that I'm<BR>
missing anything major here. I'm not claiming to be an authority on the<BR>
subject, but I think that the above is consistent with current scholarship.<BR>
<BR>
Disclaimer and ObTrav: In no way do I desire to condemn or endorse<BR>
homosexuality. This discussion started in the arena of how a same sex<BR>
marriage might be seen in a general context which flowed from a discussion<BR>
of how an unmarried regent and empress might be viewed in a Traveller<BR>
context. In my response to Doug, I simply pointed out that the sexuality of<BR>
Spartan warriors and the modern social category of homosexuality are not the<BR>
same and that such a link is not necessarily desirable.<BR>
<BR>
None of this was written with the intent to insult or offend anybody. I was<BR>
merely trying to point out that when we think we see ourselves in the<BR>
distant past, we're frequently wrong and there's usually a little more to<BR>
the story. The problem with reading too much into history is that it can<BR>
whip back and hit you when you're not expecting it to. To say that the<BR>
Spartans were gay, for example, could be used by someone who wants to attack<BR>
modern homosexuality in a very obvious way. Given that the evidence<BR>
indicates that the Spartans had distinctly unequal sexual relations with<BR>
what we would consider to be children it could be said that anyone who<BR>
claims that the Spartans were gay believes that homosexuality consists of<BR>
the sexual abuse of children. That's a very dangerous corner to be painted<BR>
in, and having grown to know Doug, I'm reasonably sure that he didn't intend<BR>
to say that.<BR>
<BR>
With that being said, I see the Imperium itself as being extremely tolerant<BR>
of various expressions of sexuality. There are a lot of different races of<BR>
humaniti which grew under alien suns and limiting them to the way things are<BR>
in the late 20th century seems kind of goofy (as I've said and defended at<BR>
length before). However, sexual activity rarely comes up in my games, so it<BR>
isn't a really heavy issue. It's just something of a background assumption<BR>
of my Traveller universe.<BR>
<BR>
"It takes diff'rent strokes, takes diff'rent strokes to row the Imperium...<BR>
Yes, it does."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:44:05 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Near-C rocks!<BR>
<BR>
Doug sends a new toy<BR>
<BR>
> Be the first on your block to rock Earth!  Or Mars!<BR>
> <BR>
> http://janus.astro.umd.edu/astro/impact.html<BR>
> -- <BR>
<BR>
Dont forget to use the iron option for best results<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: Thr Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:35:49 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design <BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> types:<BR>
<BR>
>Moreover Kromm (IMHO) gives too much credence to considerations<BR>
>of playability and fun rather than of finding a core game<BR>
>philosophy and than ruthlessly pursuing that logic far beyond <BR>
>the point where the grease spot is no longer recognizable as a <BR>
>dead horse. As Bloo has suggested, this POV of mine might be more <BR>
>profitably used in the law than in RPG's.<BR>
<BR>
 Eeep. Good to see the humor showing through that statement...<BR>
<BR>
 Happiness Suggestion: Find someone who runs the Feng Shui RPG. This game <BR>
uses playability and fun AS its core gaming philosophy. Normally I'd <BR>
recommend buying the book, but the current edition is a bit dense considering <BR>
the usual style of play. This game has the distinction of keeping our deeply <BR>
mechanistic (read: Munchkin/Munchkin/Rules Lawyer!/Munchkin) players quite <BR>
happy, despite its lack of unevenly exploitable rules.<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:49:05<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Near-C rocks!<BR>
<BR>
At 11:44 AM 6/15/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Doug sends a new toy<BR>
><BR>
>> Be the first on your block to rock Earth!  Or Mars!<BR>
>> <BR>
>> http://janus.astro.umd.edu/astro/impact.html<BR>
>> -- <BR>
><BR>
>Dont forget to use the iron option for best results<BR>
<BR>
Using a 99km iron asteroid at maximum allowed velocity, I managed to boil<BR>
the oceans!<BR>
<BR>
Mama will be so proud!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:52:00 EDT<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Spacing the ship's cat<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/15/00 12:43:16 AM !!!First Boot!!!, pnewman@gci.net <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< 9.   Imperial Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to<BR>
 Animals has a surplus Azhanti High Lightning cruiser and<BR>
 the will to use it. >><BR>
<BR>
chalk up a near miss on my keyboard...:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:52:33 -0600<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
Subject: OT Personal Request<BR>
<BR>
Once again, using the TML as a information source:<BR>
<BR>
I need to get in touch with someone who owns a heat-laminating press, of<BR>
the sort used to print heat-activated transfers to t-shirts, mousepads, and<BR>
other fabric surfaces. Someone who owns or works at a t-shirt shop would be<BR>
ideal.<BR>
<BR>
Please contact me via e-mail as this is not Travller-related, and use both<BR>
lkw@io.com and gdwgames@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:53:55 EDT<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/15/00 2:08:52 AM !!!First Boot!!!, roc@kewl.com.au <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Though very few outed homosexual males are known if politics... >><BR>
<BR>
Rep. Barney Franks of Mass....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:58:03 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
The Roc wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, homosexual males don't have to be married at all to be seen as<BR>
> stable, provided they have a history of being with the one partner they are<BR>
> viewed as very stable indeed - and reap whatever rewards may accompany that<BR>
> stability.  So perhaps it's only hetero males that have that non-stability<BR>
> problem?  Though very few outed homosexual males are known if politics...<BR>
<BR>
There are more than you might think...even here in Arizona, home of some<BR>
of the more rabid fundies in America outside the Southern Baptist<BR>
Convention, we re-elected (handily, against a reasonably well respected<BR>
opponent) our openly gay congresscritter.<BR>
<BR>
This is, however, more of a testament to the power of incumbency than<BR>
anything else.<BR>
<BR>
Mitigating factors include he was congresscritter for several terms<BR>
before being outed, and he is a Republican who's a good pig herder.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2611<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2612</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 15 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2612<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
Re: Near-C rocks!<BR>
RE: Freetraders vs airliners<BR>
Re: Vilani Women<BR>
Re: Roc: Men & Women OT:<BR>
RE: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
Re: Near-C rocks!<BR>
RE: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
Fiddling with High Guard / HG Fusion Rocket, TL9<BR>
re: Fiddling with "High Guard"<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
Re: The Rebellion. Why did it Happen?<BR>
Screening - was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2606<BR>
Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
Re: GURPS character design<BR>
[OT] Signing off for bit<BR>
RE: Near-C rocks!<BR>
Re: Near-C rocks!<BR>
Subject: RE: Long-distance introduction to CT<BR>
urine-propelled cats <BR>
Re: Near C Rocks<BR>
re:  Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:10:05 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
At 14:45 -0400 14/6/00, PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)  wrote:<BR>
>....Ah, the hidden agendas! This sounds exactly like one of our group's<BR>
>games. Although as players we use great discretion before actually trying to<BR>
>kill another PC. Sometimes the PC has gone on to make us wish we had killed<BR>
>them when we were provoked. But it's bad for party unity (and player's<BR>
>feelings) to kill one another. Besides the GM does enough damage to our<BR>
>parties - he doesn't need help.<BR>
><BR>
>Do other group routinely have PC's killing each other off?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Not routinely, but it's happened once or twice. Last time was a <BR>
Mutant Chronicles game (sort of grown up 40k universe, well, <BR>
slightly) and two of the party were enemy agents.<BR>
<BR>
<sigh><BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"Once we actually mapped it for publication it seemed to shrink<BR>
in size and was no longer the immensity that would take months<BR>
to traverse. As things become known, they lose grandeur."<BR>
After Steve Perrin, Pavis & Big Rubble Reprint Epilogue<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:11:47 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Near-C rocks!<BR>
<BR>
> >Doug sends a new toy<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> Be the first on your block to rock Earth!  Or Mars!<BR>
> >> <BR>
> >> http://janus.astro.umd.edu/astro/impact.html<BR>
> >> -- <BR>
> ><BR>
> >Dont forget to use the iron option for best results<BR>
> <BR>
> Using a 99km iron asteroid at maximum allowed velocity, I managed to boil<BR>
> the oceans!<BR>
> <BR>
> Mama will be so proud!<BR>
><BR>
That kicks<BR>
<BR>
I tried to be realistic only did 1k iron at their suggested speed.  All I <BR>
got was dead wildlife and tidle waves.<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: Thr Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:18:01 -0300 (ADT)<BR>
From: Brian A Quirt <baqrt@mta.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Freetraders vs airliners<BR>
<BR>
On Jun 15, Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote:<BR>
> I think that the airline industry would be a good model of how the<BR>
> star-laned might be organized, but I'm not sure that the pricing<BR>
> system would be the same.  For one thing, the lag in communications<BR>
> in the TU would make planning your routes and pricing your passages<BR>
> to maximize full staterooms more difficult.  I would also imagine<BR>
> that independant pilots flying around the fringes of the big system<BR>
> price rather differently.  Anyway, I don't know much about it and<BR>
> will stick to a simple system (at least until my PCs get much more<BR>
> involved in this sort of buisness).<BR>
> <BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
	Alternately, of course, move a bit further back, especially in the<BR>
frontier areas, and study the bush pilots (eg. Canada, early 20th<BR>
century almost to WWII). Given that bush pilots often transported mail<BR>
(and, IIRC, passengers) and were often not in contact during their<BR>
flights, the analogy might work very well, at least in outlying<BR>
systems/subsectors....<BR>
<BR>
Just a thought,<BR>
	-Brian Quirt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:27:57 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> James Pearson wrote:<BR>
> > What role do women play in Vilani society?<BR>
> <BR>
> IMTU, the same role as the men.<BR>
> <BR>
> A civilization evolving in such an unforgiving place as Vland could<BR>
> probably not afford not to have all its members trained for as many<BR>
> situations as possible. If we need to gather food, everyone gathers<BR>
> food. If we need to hunt, everyone hunts. If we need to file five copies<BR>
> of Form 18B12, everyone files five copies of Form 18B12.<BR>
> <BR>
I think, that Vilani society requiring close cooperation as it does,<BR>
females are more likely to play a broader role in government.  I think<BR>
that Vilani society wouldn't have lasted if alpha males had had the same<BR>
free rein to their aggression that they do in Western patriarchal society,<BR>
and that some of the native American models I've read casually about<BR>
(sorry, not to the point where I can give citations) where men and women<BR>
had different roles but where men who were war leaders were subject to the<BR>
judgement/oversight of female leaders might be useful models.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:40:01<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
At 12:53 PM 6/15/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 6/15/00 2:08:52 AM !!!First Boot!!!, roc@kewl.com.au <BR>
>writes:<BR>
><BR>
><< Though very few outed homosexual males are known if politics... >><BR>
><BR>
>Rep. Barney Franks of Mass....<BR>
<BR>
In SF, we have one straight white male on the Board of Supervisors, and he<BR>
delights in being the "oppressed minority."<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:44:00 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>
>>Biologically, I doubt it.  First off, no other primates have such a <BR>
>>taboo and they don't suffer any noticable problems from inbreeding. <BR>
>>Except among incredibly small populations the biological dangers <BR>
>>of inbreeding are quite small unless that's *all* you do.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Where inbreeding gets bad, as John states, is when you have many<BR>
>generations of a small population. Three groups in a geographically<BR>
>isolated area are going to be pretty damn interbred in 30 or so<BR>
>generations. Even without father: daughter incest, you're going to get a<BR>
>high concentration of genetic material.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Inbreeding is a relative quantity, and an 'inbreeding coefficient'<BR>
	can be estimated for any population (assuming that one has access<BR>
	to appropriate data).  Most short-term problems associated with<BR>
	excessive inbreeding are usually called 'inbreeding depression,'<BR>
	and are thought to be caused by 'deleterious recessive' (DR) genes.<BR>
<BR>
	We have two copies of almost all of our genes (one from each<BR>
	parent), and if we inherit one copy of a DR gene it causes no<BR>
	problems.  Because most specific DR genes are rare, it is unlikely<BR>
	that your unrelated spouse will have the same specific DR gene, and<BR>
	therefore it is unlikely that your children will get two copies of<BR>
	the DR gene, and therefore it is unlikely that they will suffer<BR>
	the nasty effects of the DR gene.<BR>
<BR>
	If, on the other hand, you mate with a close relative, there is a<BR>
	much better chance that the child produced will get two copies of<BR>
	a particular DR gene.  These nasty genes are probably common, as<BR>
	they are mostly 'invisible' to natural selection unless two of<BR>
	them show up in the same individual.  I don't have any figures, but<BR>
	I imagine that we all carry many of them.<BR>
<BR>
	A different situation is likely to exist in organisms that routinely<BR>
	mate with close relatives, or have high levels of inbreeding for<BR>
	other reasons.  In such cases the DR genes are having their nasty<BR>
	effects regularly, and so natural selection has more chances to<BR>
	take them out of the gene pool.  As a result, I would expect species<BR>
	with a long history of inbreeding to be relatively immune to the<BR>
	effects of inbreeding depression.<BR>
<BR>
	Hope this long-winded explanation is of some use.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:52:05 -0500<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Near-C rocks!<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:44 AM 6/15/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> >Doug sends a new toy<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> Be the first on your block to rock Earth!  Or Mars!<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> http://janus.astro.umd.edu/astro/impact.html<BR>
> >> --<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Dont forget to use the iron option for best results<BR>
><BR>
> Using a 99km iron asteroid at maximum allowed velocity, I managed to boil<BR>
> the oceans!<BR>
><BR>
> Mama will be so proud!<BR>
<BR>
    Try a 9999km asteroid.  But cover your keyboard first!<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:54:30 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>A different situation is likely to exist in organisms that routinely <BR>
>mate with close relatives, or have high levels of inbreeding for <BR>
>other reasons.  In such cases the DR genes are having their nasty <BR>
>effects regularly, and so natural selection has more chances to <BR>
>take them out of the gene pool.  As a result, I would expect species <BR>
>with a long history of inbreeding to be relatively immune to the <BR>
>effects of inbreeding depression. <BR>
<BR>
How about Cheetahs?<BR>
<BR>
According to http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s40791.htm, <BR>
the world population of Cheetahs dropped to less than *seven* some<BR>
10,000 years ago, and possibly suffered this severe a population drop<BR>
more than once.  The species is now so inbred that all cheetahs are<BR>
almost genetically identical to each other.<BR>
<BR>
They don't have the diversity to survive an environment change, such<BR>
as a new disease, but the most obviously deleterious genes must <BR>
be gone.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Leave a population Zero world (say, six stranded human<BR>
explorers, three men and three women) alone for 500 years on an<BR>
uncharted garden world.  What will you find there when the planet is <BR>
rediscovered?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:49:41 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Fiddling with High Guard / HG Fusion Rocket, TL9<BR>
<BR>
This was the Fusion Rocket stuff.... comments welcomed<BR>
<BR>
At 17:26 +0000 5/11/98, SD Mooney wrote to the TML:<BR>
<BR>
HG Fusion Rocket, TL9<BR>
- --------------------<BR>
<BR>
Average mass/displacement ton for ships from MT Imperial Encyclopedia entries -<BR>
<BR>
Civilian - 10T/dT, Military 30T/dT<BR>
<BR>
(Averaged and rounded - initially I looked at FSSI but the figures <BR>
were all over the place).<BR>
<BR>
Fusion Rocket TL9<BR>
TT(Tons Thrust) 195<BR>
Vol 1kL<BR>
Fuel 0.005 kL/hr<BR>
Power Consumed - 0<BR>
Power Generated 3.9MW<BR>
<BR>
Covert to 1dT unit (ie x 13.5)<BR>
TT = 2632.5<BR>
Vol 1dT<BR>
Fuel consumed = 0.0675 kL/h<BR>
Power Generated = 52.65 MW<BR>
<BR>
Rounding...<BR>
<BR>
TT = 2600<BR>
Power = 50MW = 0.2EP<BR>
<BR>
100dT hull<BR>
Civilian mass = 1000T<BR>
Military mass = 3000T<BR>
<BR>
Accel = (mass Thrust / mass ship)<BR>
<BR>
Civilian --  1dT drive<BR>
2600/1000 = 2.6G<BR>
<BR>
Thus military = 0.9G<BR>
<BR>
Convert to % and expand to get drive dT<BR>
<BR>
Thrust	Civilian%	    Military%<BR>
1G	0.4	    1.2<BR>
2G	0.8	    2.4<BR>
etc<BR>
<BR>
nG	n x (0.4)	    n x (1.2)<BR>
<BR>
- ----<BR>
<BR>
Taking dT<BR>
- --------<BR>
<BR>
Fuel for 1 G Turn (20min)<BR>
<BR>
= 0.0675/3 = 0.0225 kL/h<BR>
<BR>
Fuel consumed  in 1 turn = 0.0225 x (drive mass) kL<BR>
<BR>
Hence fuel required = (turns of operation wanted) x 0.0225 x (mass of <BR>
drive in dT) /13.5<BR>
<BR>
EP output = 0.2 x (mass of drive in dT)<BR>
<BR>
- -------<BR>
<BR>
Hope that was of interest...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"Once we actually mapped it for publication it seemed to shrink<BR>
in size and was no longer the immensity that would take months<BR>
to traverse. As things become known, they lose grandeur."<BR>
After Steve Perrin, Pavis & Big Rubble Reprint Epilogue<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:42:35 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Fiddling with "High Guard"<BR>
<BR>
At 9:24 -0400 15/6/00, "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>  wrote:<BR>
>Having grown rather dissatisfied with the "T4" version of "Fire,<BR>
>Fusion, and Steel" (I love the level of detail it offers, but find<BR>
>its lack of guidelines and examples frustrating), I've decided to<BR>
>try to extend the starship design rules in "Book 5: High Guard" to<BR>
>cover reaction drives (since I really like HEPlaR, and find thruster<BR>
>plates aesthetically distasteful).<BR>
<BR>
I had a play a while ago with Fusion Drives from MT back fitted to HG <BR>
- - I'll see if I can find the notes...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:29:56 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
At 0:29 -0400 15/6/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
> >Hexes. ACQ. Thoughts? Notes? I think the existing rules should work<BR>
> >okay with them.... probably with no modifications...<BR>
><BR>
>Since that was what I playtested on mostly, it shouldn't be a problem.<BR>
<BR>
That's what I thought - 2 AP everything but 1AP forward...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:28:14 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Rebellion. Why did it Happen?<BR>
<BR>
At 0:29 -0400 15/6/00, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:<BR>
>       "Imperial Elegy<BR>
><BR>
>        You will reap what you sow<BR>
>        Put your face to the ground<BR>
>        Here come the marching men<BR>
>        Your banners wrapped around"<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
 From the administrator's view point:<BR>
<BR>
"We got the kingdom, we got the key,<BR>
We got the empire, now as then,<BR>
We don't doubt, we don't take direction"<BR>
<BR>
which leads to... 'I hear empire down'. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
>                                                                *SoM<BR>
<BR>
Also Sisterhood _Gift_ ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom (musically outed)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:18:04 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Screening - was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2606<BR>
<BR>
At 0:29 -0400 15/6/00,  Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com> wrote:<BR>
>Some human cultures are already doing this. I just read the book _Genome_<BR>
>by Matt Ridley. If I remember rightly, he relates that some Jewish sub-<BR>
>ethnicities are screening for Tay-Sachs recessives in childhood, and there's<BR>
>a hotline where you call and provide you and your fiancee's magic ID<BR>
>numbers and they say "go" or "no go." (I may be misremembering details,<BR>
>but that was the gist).<BR>
<BR>
Shades of 'Gattaca'?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"Once we actually mapped it for publication it seemed to shrink<BR>
in size and was no longer the immensity that would take months<BR>
to traverse. As things become known, they lose grandeur."<BR>
After Steve Perrin, Pavis & Big Rubble Reprint Epilogue<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:53:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
>                    <BR>
>We now resume our regular coverage of how Feudal Technocracies<BR>
>should use fighters to shoot down near C rocks navigated by <BR>
>female Aslan in comfortable shoes.<BR>
<BR>
I became involved with Traveller in the CT era--about 1980 I think, but I am a newcomer to the <BR>
TML.  Could someone explain to me what this sentence means ?  <BR>
<BR>
"female Aslan in comfortable shoes", sounds like some sort of secret phrase exchanged by <BR>
fanatical members of a secret society with the nefarious goal of simultaneously overthrowing <BR>
all the governments in Charted Space and establishing a new unified utopian empire. :)<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:59:07 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS character design<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com> wrote <BR>
> > Peter, I am once again unable to accept the assertion that you're not <BR>
> > trolling. Are you sure you wouldn't find GURPs more enjoyable if you <BR>
> > dispensed with the players altogether? That way their little whims <BR>
> > won't conflict with the die rolls...<BR>
> <BR>
> So if you had a player whose character had Pacifism: Can not <BR>
> Kill and he said: "Alphonso will fire his AK-47 full of live<BR>
> ammo into the crowd.' you wouldn't have a problem with it? <BR>
<BR>
Answer (1): <BR>
<BR>
Alphonso's player made the choice to take the Pacifism disad. You aren't <BR>
giving players the choice to buy Ally or not for other players.<BR>
<BR>
_If_ I were going to allow players to buy Ally for other players, then I'd<BR>
probably use your interpretation. Your question implies that I've already <BR>
accepted your conclusion.<BR>
<BR>
Answer (2):<BR>
<BR>
My reply as GM: "Alphonso has the Pacifism disad. Has Alphonso cracked? If <BR>
so, you need to buy off the Pacifism with some psychoses or something."<BR>
<BR>
The shifting of Psychological Limitation-type disads happens all the time <BR>
in good Champions campaigns. <BR>
<BR>
> One of the basic ideas behind GURPS is that a character who<BR>
> fails their will roll to avoid a mental Disadvantage _must_<BR>
> act in accordance with his Disadvantage, I am merely extending<BR>
> this train of logic to include Advantages. <BR>
<BR>
Peter, when a role playing game ruleset inadvertantly leaves out the <BR>
paragraph, found in almost every RPG out there, to the effect that <BR>
"common sense and the GM's judgement take precedence over all the <BR>
written rules", you insist that this was an intentional departure <BR>
and that the rules are set in stone[2].<BR>
<BR>
Now, you're "extending a train of logic" in another game in a way <BR>
that seems incredibly convoluted and leads to conclusions that simply <BR>
don't fit the central idea of role-playing games[3].<BR>
<BR>
So which is it: are you lawful, or lawyerly?<BR>
<BR>
> [1] In my mind GURPS<BR>
> has already established, in its Disadvantage system, that sometimes<BR>
> a characters actions will be out of a players control.<BR>
<BR>
Right. Definition of "disadvantage": a BAD THING, a handicap, e.g. a <BR>
character being forced to act in a way the player might not prefer. The <BR>
player trades off the freedom to fire the AK-47 into the crowd in exchange <BR>
for a bag of magic beans, er, character points. <BR>
<BR>
So why should spending points on an advantage further handicap the <BR>
player?<BR>
<BR>
- -RB<BR>
<BR>
[1] Not my footnote.<BR>
<BR>
[2] TML discussion a month or two ago. I say inadvertant because (IIRC)<BR>
all editions of Traveller other than Megatraveller seem to have this <BR>
meta-rule included, and I don't believe that the meta-rule-system was <BR>
intended to be different in MT. <BR>
<BR>
[3] As I understand RPGs. I may have been missing the point entirely, lo, <BR>
these past twenty years.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:10:02 -0400<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] Signing off for bit<BR>
<BR>
Begin the process of moving.  Will sign back on next<BR>
month.<BR>
<BR>
bloo, out<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:03:31 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Near-C rocks!<BR>
<BR>
Das Penguin posted:<BR>
> <BR>
> Be the first on your block to rock Earth!  Or Mars!<BR>
> <BR>
> http://janus.astro.umd.edu/astro/impact.html<BR>
> - -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Huh. Guess what a 9999km diameter iron rock traveling<BR>
at 72.8km/sec does to the Earth (I'm in a munchkin mood).<BR>
<BR>
- --quote--<BR>
<BR>
RESULT: Impact into the Arctic Ocean in the permanent ice cap!! <BR>
<BR>
The BIG One!! <BR>
<BR>
Energy Released = 3 billion billion MT (MegaTons of TNT) <BR>
(Impact that formed the Earth's Moon: 20 million billion MT)<BR>
<BR>
QUAKE!! Magnitude 17.9 (largest recorded Earthquake: 9.5) <BR>
<BR>
Crater Diameter: 84100.0 km <BR>
Crater Depth: 8.9 km <BR>
<BR>
Collisions this energetic occurred only early in the Solar<BR>
System's history.<BR>
<BR>
Marvin the Martian says: "Oh dear, it looks as if Earth was<BR>
shattered in thousands of tiny pieces! I guess I won't get<BR>
to use my Illudium Q-36 Space Modulator after all.<BR>
<BR>
- --end quote--<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, hitting the Earth with another planet going really<BR>
fast is a Bad thing. (duh)<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:27:28 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Near-C rocks!<BR>
<BR>
Smart, David J (David) writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Huh. Guess what a 9999km diameter iron rock traveling<BR>
> at 72.8km/sec does to the Earth (I'm in a munchkin mood).<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
Hm...5.2x10^11 km^3 x 8x10^12 kg/km^3 = 4.3x10^24 kg (mass of earth: 6x10^24)<BR>
72.8 km/sec = 2.65x10^9 joules/kg.<BR>
Energy release: 1.1 x 10^34 joules.<BR>
Gravitational binding energy of earth: 2.2 x 10^32 joules.<BR>
Chemical binding energy of earth: several orders of magnitude lower.<BR>
<BR>
Result: complete destruction of both objects.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:30:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Joe Lachance" <Lachance@nc.rr.com><BR>
Subject: Subject: RE: Long-distance introduction to CT<BR>
<BR>
    The way I've handled character creation in the online traveller campaign<BR>
I'm running is to ask the players to submit a vision of what they want their<BR>
character to be.  I then generate a character skeleton.  Via an online chat<BR>
program (IRC/Hotline/Grips/ or whatever is your poison) you can then talk to<BR>
the player and decide which skill they obtain for each term/year (ie decide<BR>
which skill is picked for a cascade skill).  This system has worked pretty<BR>
well for us.  It should be noted that the 3 players in my campaign, while<BR>
experienced role-players, have not played traveller face-to-face.  This is<BR>
in many ways an advantage (as the secret of the Ancients really is a<BR>
secret!)<BR>
<BR>
Joe<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:38:44 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: urine-propelled cats <BR>
<BR>
>From: "anunnaki" <anunnaki@wanadoo.fr><BR>
>Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
>Hey, how come urine-propelled cats don' t appear in FF&S<BR>
>???<BR>
<BR>
We'd better cool it now.  If we're not careful, they _will_<BR>
appear in ACQ 2d ed.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:38:45 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Near C Rocks<BR>
<BR>
X-TEK's R&D Department came up with the following way to destroy an earth<BR>
sized planet<BR>
using the computer model supplied by Gridlore Technologies:<BR>
<BR>
<BEGIN><BR>
YOUR COLLISION PARAMETERS<BR>
<BR>
Projectile:Iron Asteroid  <BR>
Diameter: 5000 kilometer(s) (Dat's one Friggin HUGE rock!)<BR>
Velocity: 70.0 km/s (The fastest this model will allow, natural<BR>
acceleration only. No Frac C :-(  )<BR>
Target: Earth <BR>
RESULT: Impact into Australia in Oceania!! <BR>
                                                   The BIG One!! <BR>
<BR>
Energy Released = 299 million billion MT (MegaTons of TNT) <BR>
(Impact that formed the Earth's Moon: 20 million billion MT)<BR>
<BR>
QUAKE!! Magnitude 17.3 (largest recorded Earthquake: 9.5) <BR>
<BR>
Crater Diameter: 47800.0 km <BR>
Crater Depth: 7.5 km <BR>
<BR>
Collisions this energetic occurred only early in the Solar System's<BR>
history. <BR>
<BR>
 Marvin Sez:<BR>
"Oh dear, it looks as if Earth was shattered in thousands of tiny pieces!<BR>
I guess I won't get<BR>
                         to use my Illudium Q-36 Space Modulator after<BR>
all."<BR>
<BR>
</END><BR>
<BR>
YES!!!!  TAKE THAT EARTH!  No more will you obscure my view of Venus!<BR>
<BR>
\  // Commander X<BR>
 \//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
T E K  Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //\  http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm<BR>
//  \ 0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:48:59 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:03:26 -0500<BR>
>From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
<BR>
>What role do women play in Vilani society?<BR>
<BR>
That's a good question, and why aren't we discussing it on<BR>
the Traveller Culture mailing list, which has lately been<BR>
concerned with all things Vilani?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2612<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 15 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2613<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
RE: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
Re: GURPS character design<BR>
Bunker Design (was GURPS Character Design)<BR>
RE: Deckplans<BR>
Re: Vilani Women<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure (now OT)<BR>
RE: inbreeding (Not OT)<BR>
RE: inbreeding <BR>
RE: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW &SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
Re: keyboard kill<BR>
re: Inbreeding<BR>
Bunker Design (was GURPS Character Design)<BR>
re: Fiddling with HG / Fusion Drives<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure (now OT)<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure (now OT)<BR>
Inter and Intra Stellar Travel Coasting<BR>
Re: HELP! Tracking ship movements in a system<BR>
Re: Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:04:09 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>If we were discussing "GURPS: DSM-IV" this style might <BR>
>make a little sense.<BR>
<BR>
"GURPS: DSM-IV":  I am so glad that I have stopped drinking<BR>
while reading the TML.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:23:26 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
<BR>
Robert Snyder made a comment on Peter Newman's statement:<BR>
> >We now resume our regular coverage of how Feudal Technocracies<BR>
> >should use fighters to shoot down near C rocks navigated by<BR>
> >female Aslan in comfortable shoes.<BR>
> <BR>
> I became involved with Traveller in the CT era--about 1980 I think, but I am<BR>
> a newcomer to the TML.  Could someone explain to me what this sentence<BR>
> means?<BR>
<BR>
LOL!<BR>
<BR>
Well, the sentence basically includes referrences to some of the<BR>
flamewars about Traveller-related (!) topics that have been going on<BR>
here throughout history...<BR>
<BR>
Feudal Technocracies :  What is a feudal technocracy government anyway?<BR>
How does it work?<BR>
<BR>
Fighters :  Are fighter ships possible/viable/cool in the Traveller<BR>
universe?<BR>
<BR>
Near-C rocks :  Attaching thruster plate drives to a big rock would get<BR>
you a very effective doomsday weapon. Why is this not done in the<BR>
Traveller universe?<BR>
<BR>
Female Aslan in comfortable shoes :  Long story... basically, since a<BR>
majority of the Aslan population is female, it is theorized by several<BR>
TMLers that many Aslan females are lesbians. "Woman in comfortable<BR>
shoes" is a way of writing the word "lesbian" without using any dirty<BR>
words.<BR>
<BR>
Peter did manage to miss (or leave out) at least one of the other pet<BR>
discussion topics of the TML:<BR>
<BR>
Pirates :  Is piracy possible in the 3rd Imperium? Wouldn't it be easy<BR>
for the navy to wipe out all traces of it? Are the navy themselves<BR>
pirates occassionally?<BR>
<BR>
> "female Aslan in comfortable shoes", sounds like some sort of secret phrase<BR>
> exchanged by fanatical members of a secret society with the nefarious goal<BR>
> of simultaneously overthrowing all the governments in Charted Space and<BR>
> establishing a new unified utopian empire. :)<BR>
<BR>
Indeed it is. The organization is commonly known as the TML, which is an<BR>
abbrevation for "The Traveller Mailing List."<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:20:58 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
<BR>
Robert Snyder writes:<BR>
>>We now resume our regular coverage of how Feudal Technocracies<BR>
>>should use fighters to shoot down near C rocks navigated by <BR>
>>female Aslan in comfortable shoes.<BR>
>I became involved with Traveller in the CT era--about 1980 I think, but I am<BR>
>a newcomer to the TML.  Could someone explain to me what this sentence<BR>
means ?  <BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	It is a reference to the operational sex ratio in Aslan society.<BR>
	Because there are supposed to be more females than males, it has<BR>
	been suggested that many females may be homosexual.  From there,<BR>
	the stereotype of homosexual females wearing comfortable rather<BR>
	than traditional (uncomfortable) womens shoes completes the<BR>
	picture.  The sex lives of female Aslan, the nature of Feudal<BR>
	Technocracies, the utility of fighters in space combat, and why<BR>
	rocks launched at relativistic speads are not used to attack<BR>
	planetary targets are topics that have been argued about on the<BR>
	TML with, um, passion.  Kind of like whether pirates can exist in<BR>
	the Traveller universe.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:32:10 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS character design<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> So if you had a player whose character had Pacifism: Can not<BR>
> Kill and he said: "Alphonso will fire his AK-47 full of live<BR>
> ammo into the crowd.' you wouldn't have a problem with it?<BR>
<BR>
Well, a player doing this is either not acting in character or<BR>
roleplaying a severe case of "going postal." I think the former would be<BR>
more common.<BR>
<BR>
I solve this kind of problem (which only ever happens with "bad<BR>
roleplayers") by giving them a much smaller sum of experience points. I<BR>
always hand out experience points based mostly on roleplaying. "Bad<BR>
roleplayers" are usually interested in getting experience points, so<BR>
they at least try to act in character. The result is that I can play<BR>
with groups of friends including both "good" and "bad" roleplayers<BR>
without having any of the players becoming extremely annoyed with other<BR>
players.<BR>
<BR>
> One of the basic ideas behind GURPS is that a character who<BR>
> fails their will roll to avoid a mental Disadvantage _must_<BR>
> act in accordance with his Disadvantage, I am merely extending<BR>
> this train of logic to include Advantages.<BR>
<BR>
You do have a point here, but I "enforce" this is a different manner<BR>
(see above).<BR>
<BR>
I assume that a character with, say a "Lightning calculator" advantage<BR>
would be more or less obsessive about counting and calculating in your<BR>
games. Is this the case?<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:29:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: Bunker Design (was GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:19:01 -0500<BR>
>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
><BR>
><snippage><BR>
><BR>
>Jeff: "You know, if we pour gasoline down the ventilation shafts, then<BR>
>throw down a few grenades, I bet that we could kill lots of the enemy<BR>
>soldiers in that underground shelter."  <<rolls 18 on 3d6>><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	Actually, that would not work.  The ventilation shafts in German bunkers<BR>
had this nifty little dog-leg (Vargr-leg?) so fluids and foreign objects<BR>
like grenades would fall harmlessly into a sump outside the bunker.  In<BR>
addition, the vents could be sealed in case of a gas/smoke attack.  All the<BR>
soldiers carried gasmasks with them (the lessons in chemical warfare from<BR>
WWI were not lost on the Germans), and the air inside the bunkers would last<BR>
for hours at least.  The entrances were even set up like air-locks.<BR>
	Even today in a hastily-dug foxhole, the manuals say the floor should slope<BR>
into a deep, narrow hole called a "grenade sump".  A hand grenade tossed<BR>
into the position can often be kicked into the hole where the ground absorbs<BR>
the fragments.  (though I would love to hear a veteran describe what the<BR>
blast is like - I doubt it would be pleasant, but far preferable to ending<BR>
up with a groin full of shrapnel.)<BR>
	ObTrav:  GMs, remember that most of the cute tricks that players will think<BR>
up for knocking out emplacements have already been thought of decades, if<BR>
not centuries, ago.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  The half-baked opinions described above are my own.  Anyone<BR>
trying to blame my employer is nuttier than I am.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:16:47 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:24:29 +0100<BR>
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Deckplans<BR>
><BR>
>shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca wrote:<BR>
>> >My *big* beef with grids in general is why does "15mm" scale  use<BR>
>> >0.5 inch units?  And why does "25mm"  scale  use  1  inch  units?<BR>
>> >(Does 2 x 15 = 25?  I think not!)<BR>
>><BR>
>> Standard base sizes for handling the fiddly little things; 0.5 or<BR>
>> full inch. Nothing too strange to it :)<BR>
><BR>
>So why isn't it called "half inch" scale (and "1 inch" scale  for<BR>
>the other)?  Calling  it  "15mm"  scale  is  misleading  ...  and<BR>
>potentially irritating.<BR>
<BR>
In miniatures scale refers to the height of an adult human figure in that<BR>
scale(sometimes measured to the top of the head sometimes measured<BR>
to the eyes.) It is common practice to mount 15 mm minis on 1/2" bases<BR>
and 25mm minis on 1" bases.<BR>
<BR>
Now 15mm is aproximately 3/5 of an inch and the average human male<BR>
is aproximately 72 inches tall making a ratio of 1:120.<BR>
<BR>
1.5 meters is aproximately 60 inches so the map scale of 1/2 inch to 60"<BR>
also gives the magic ratio of 1:120.<BR>
<BR>
So like all jargon the miniature scale conveys precise data to the<BR>
cognocenti while at the same being next to indeciferable to the<BR>
uninitiated. (But of course the corespondence between 25mm scale<BR>
and the 1 inch base is much less acurate {which I believe is why<BR>
minis manufacturers are moving to 28 to 30 mm scale [actually no.<BR>
larger scale means more detail but it makes for a giggle]})<BR>
<BR>
now aren't you sorry you asked?<BR>
<BR>
>"Americans," my Canadian friend informed me, "don't handle metric<BR>
>very well.  I think  its  that  base-10  thing  that's  got  them<BR>
>confused."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"I'm all lost in the supermarket,<BR>
   I can no longer shop happily,<BR>
   I came in here for the special offer<BR>
   Guaranteed Personality" - Strummer/Jones (The Clash)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:39:17 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
<snip><BR>
> and that some of the native American models I've read casually about<BR>
> (sorry, not to the point where I can give citations) where men and women<BR>
> had different roles but where men who were war leaders were subject to the<BR>
> judgement/oversight of female leaders might be useful models.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds a lot like Aslan society to me...<BR>
<BR>
Quiz: Are soft deerskin shoes (moccasines?) considered comfortable by<BR>
female native Americans?<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:10:05 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure (now OT)<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Jun 00, at 12:55, Traveller-digest wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
> <BR>
> > <BR>
> > Biologically, I doubt it.  First off, no other primates have such a<BR>
> > taboo and they don't suffer any noticable problems from inbreeding.<BR>
> > Except among incredibly small populations the biological dangers of<BR>
> > inbreeding are quite small unless that's *all* you do.<BR>
> <BR>
> Well they do have an effective anti-incest (at least anti<BR>
> brother-sister or mother-son ) strategy.<BR>
> <BR>
> Most, if not all primate groupings force younger males either out of<BR>
> the group or to the (non-breeding) fringes of the group; at least with<BR>
> chimps and gorillas, there tends to be an Alpha male who is the only<BR>
> breeder, with at most a few other near-Alphas who can get away with<BR>
> breeding when the Alpha isn't looking. Alphas also tend to kill<BR>
> offspring who aren't theirs.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, detailed observations of primate groups  (mostly baboons <BR>
and chimps) has shown that the link between dominance and <BR>
breeding is much more tenuous than previously thought.  <BR>
<BR>
Female primates in such groups tend to breed with pretty much <BR>
whoever they please, they just do so out of sight of the dominant <BR>
male.  In fact, among baboons, the dominant male does not <BR>
particularly breed more often than any other male (I'm less certain <BR>
about chimps).  Also, dominance hierarchies are often neither <BR>
absolute nor singular.  There is dominance in feeding (who eats <BR>
first) and in various forms of social attention, these hierarchies <BR>
need not be the same.  Finally in baboons (which I know better <BR>
than chimps) there are fully separate male and female dominance <BR>
hierarchies.<BR>
<BR>
> Their sons tend to go off and join other groups or found their own, if<BR>
> they can find enough others to go with them.<BR>
> <BR>
> Daughters tend to stay with the same group as their mothers, and will<BR>
> likely breed with their father. (this is the root of maternal<BR>
> teaching, since a mother chimp who teaches her daughter to raise<BR>
> babies well will have her genes passed on more often. Or, rather, the<BR>
> genes in a good teacher will see themselves passed on with higher<BR>
> frequency...it's all still the genes, John ;-)<BR>
<BR>
That is at least the theory.  Of course, no one has yet proven that <BR>
there is a genetic basis for any such complex behaviors.  This lack <BR>
is one of the major failings of sociobiology.<BR>
 <BR>
> Even in mammals who don't live in groups and/or mate in harem fashion,<BR>
> such as bears, daughters tend to stay closer to the mother than sons<BR>
> do. Again, this is the 'maternal instinct genes' in action. Their<BR>
> genes get passed on more successfully.<BR>
<BR>
Once again attributing this to "maternal instinct genes" or anything <BR>
of the sort is an unproven assumption.  This is a possible <BR>
explanation, but one with no actual evidence behind it.  Recently <BR>
the whole kin selection "selfish gene theory" has been found to <BR>
have some *very* serious holes in it.  One of the biggest that I <BR>
know of is the fact that while the theory works rather well in an <BR>
environment which assumes the possibility of unrestricted breeding <BR>
between all pairs in the entire population, in an real environment <BR>
where groups migrate, and sub-populations separate and come <BR>
back together over both long and short time scales the theory <BR>
basically doesn't fails.  I can dig out a reference if you are <BR>
interested, since I saw this article on the web.    <BR>
<BR>
Genetic determinism on the level you are describing may work <BR>
perfectly well on ants and other social insects.  I believe E.O. <BR>
Wilson may have made a major contribution to entomology when <BR>
he developed this theory for ants.  But applying it to mammals <BR>
seems a highly unproven stretch of the theory.  The more evidence <BR>
that accumulates, the les well it seems to work.  <BR>
<BR>
Of course, much of the confusion on such issues is due to the fact <BR>
that science journalism, even in magazines such as Scientific <BR>
American tends to be very spotty.  In any topic related to human <BR>
behavior and especially human sexuality (and all such studies on <BR>
primates are assumed, rightly or not, to have relevance to human <BR>
behavior) popular prejudice is at least as important as scientific <BR>
accuracy when determining whether an article will see print.<BR>
<BR>
For a truly humorous example, look at the study on the alleged <BR>
genetic basis of homosexuality in the July 2000 Popular Science  <BR>
(page 34) it has several holes large enough to drive a planet <BR>
through and is therefore essentially meaningless, and yet it is in <BR>
print in a national magazine devoted to new science and <BR>
technology.  <BR>
<BR>
Similarly, the article on early hominids in the January 2000 <BR>
Scientific American was a fascinating mixture of fact and <BR>
nonsense.  The last portion (page 61-62) which attempts to explain <BR>
the dominance of homo sapiens sapiens over other hominids <BR>
entirely missed the fact that the discovery of Neanderthal hypoid <BR>
(or whatever the name of the bones in the larynx is) in the early 90s <BR>
proved that they were exceedingly likely be fully capable of speech. <BR>
Such gross errors can be found in far too many articles on such <BR>
topics in both newspapers and popular scientific magazines.  As <BR>
an ardent postmodernist I strongly suspect that a bias to select <BR>
articles with certain view points, regardless of their seeming <BR>
accuracy and not merely carelessness is involved.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:14:07 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: RE: inbreeding (Not OT)<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Jun 00, at 14:49, Traveller-digest wrote:<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> How about Cheetahs?<BR>
> <BR>
> According to http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s40791.htm, the<BR>
> world population of Cheetahs dropped to less than *seven* some 10,000<BR>
> years ago, and possibly suffered this severe a population drop more<BR>
> than once.  The species is now so inbred that all cheetahs are almost<BR>
> genetically identical to each other.<BR>
> <BR>
> They don't have the diversity to survive an environment change, such<BR>
> as a new disease, but the most obviously deleterious genes must be<BR>
> gone.<BR>
> <BR>
> ObTrav: Leave a population Zero world (say, six stranded human<BR>
> explorers, three men and three women) alone for 500 years on an<BR>
> uncharted garden world.  What will you find there when the planet is<BR>
> rediscovered?<BR>
<BR>
Poul Anderson wrote one novel "The Night Face" and one short <BR>
story "The Sharing of the Flesh" with this as a premise.  They are <BR>
both quite good, and the answer in both cases is a really odd minor <BR>
human race.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindpsring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:22:03 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: inbreeding <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: Leave a population Zero world (say, six stranded <BR>
>human explorers, three men and three women) alone for 500 <BR>
>years on an uncharted garden world.  What will you find <BR>
>there when the planet is  rediscovered?<BR>
<BR>
Most probable finding:  beautiful garden world with five<BR>
graves and a skeleton.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:31:10 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: RE: [Oprah?] Re: Arbellatra's 'march' to the Core (was Re: 3FW &SRW - connect ions?)<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 14 Jun 2000 02:53:57 -0400 (EDT), "Chris Seamans"<BR>
<semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: Anyone interested in seeing a page or so of a Vilani epic poem with<BR>
>all of the cool artifacts that give it the proper flavor? You might<BR>
>relatively soon. It'll be an English translation as I'm not too hip to<BR>
>writing in Vilani.<BR>
<BR>
I think you'd better post it on the Traveller-Culture list.  I<BR>
will encourage the other ninety-odd members to taunt you if you<BR>
do not.<BR>
<BR>
If the rest of the TML has no objections, it could be posted<BR>
here, too.  But the Traveller-Culture list is a must.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:31:14 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: keyboard kill<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 14 Jun 2000 05:37:10 -0400 (EDT), "Kiri Aradia Morgan"<BR>
<tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
>>Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
>>>> You Know You've Been Reading TML Too Long When You Think:<BR>
>>>>  "Was this before or after he and Kiri broke up?"<BR>
<BR>
>>> You, sir, owe the University of California-San Francisco Medical Center a keyboard.<BR>
>>> Kiri (damn, I knew I shoulda stuck it out a couple more -- hundred -- years?<BR>
>>> You bettah be nice to me, I coulda been Empress!<BR>
<BR>
>>[in my best Yoda voice]<BR>
>>"You will be, my young one. Heh. You will be."<BR>
<BR>
>>In CT TL 9 starts in 2001. Thus if you are severely injured next year they<BR>
>>will put you in a low berth. When we get to TL 12 and can be repaired you<BR>
>>will be unfrozen. After you are drafted by the Terran Confederation and<BR>
>>become Hiroshi's aide de camp you will fall and love, marry, and become<BR>
>>Empress. He should be alpha male enough for you. :)<BR>
<BR>
>Overheard in the shadows:<BR>
<BR>
>"If you want to get rid of Estigarribia, you're going to have to get rid of<BR>
>his antique frill.  That woman is mad, but she always seems to know what<BR>
>we're up to, dammit!"<BR>
<BR>
>"I think she's a witch.  She's always invoking the power of some being named<BR>
>Kannon.  Isn't that some ancient Japanese mythological figure?"<BR>
<BR>
>"I don't know, but we're never going to get anywhere if we don't get our<BR>
>hands on her sacred Black Books."<BR>
<BR>
Some people should not be allowed to play together, even in<BR>
cyberspace.<BR>
<BR>
On the other side of that problem, we have people like Kiri,<BR>
Peter, Bloo, CmdrX, Black Ice, Kenji, and the rest of the TML,<BR>
who, while individually and collectively a danger to keyboards<BR>
everywhere, should be incorriged [sic].  Frequently.<BR>
<BR>
(N.B. I don't drink near my computer any more.  Things like this<BR>
is why.)<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:30:17 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Inbreeding<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>>From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu> <BR>
><BR>
>>ObTrav: Leave a population Zero world (say, six stranded <BR>
>>human explorers, three men and three women) alone for 500 <BR>
>>years on an uncharted garden world.  What will you find <BR>
>>there when the planet is  rediscovered? <BR>
><BR>
>Most probable finding:  beautiful garden world with five <BR>
>graves and a skeleton. <BR>
<BR>
Pessimist. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:43:54 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Bunker Design (was GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
> Actually, that would not work.  The ventilation shafts in German <BR>
> bunkers had this nifty little dog-leg (Vargr-leg?) so fluids and <BR>
> foreign objects like grenades would fall harmlessly into a sump<BR>
> outside the bunker.  In addition, the vents could be sealed in case<BR>
> of a gas/smoke attack.  <BR>
<BR>
That would be nice if they were in a German bunker.<BR>
<BR>
The "Bunker" in question was the cellar of a *French* chateau,<BR>
and obviously - as the Dirty Dozen's fuel and grenades plan<BR>
worked - hadn't been upgraded to German bunker standards.  Of course,<BR>
it's entirely possible that the German officers and their companions<BR>
didn't know that, and assumed they'd be as safe in the cellar as<BR>
they'd be in a Bunker.  <BR>
<BR>
The chateau was in use as a rear-area recreational facility, intended <BR>
to be abandoned if attacking armies came close, so the lack of a<BR>
fortified hidey-hole makes sense.  It especially makes sense <BR>
considering the massive task of fortifying the Atlantic Wall - the<BR>
Germans didn't have the manpower or materials to fortify the <BR>
entire coastline as they intended to, much less a <BR>
brothel/beerhause/conference center.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:49:30 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Fiddling with HG / Fusion Drives<BR>
<BR>
Another thought on using fusion drives in HG:<BR>
<BR>
If you used a fusion rocket for operations in combat, you can gain <BR>
extra EP for combat - admittedly on 1EP per 5dT but that's enough for <BR>
a single laser.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, you could use a Fusion rocket booster to gain combat performance <BR>
- - the power it generates actually boosts agility too, as well as <BR>
overall G Rating.<BR>
<BR>
The Hard Times / Challenge articles I sourced the original data from <BR>
include ion drives etc as options. It's be nice to see a HG2.5 with <BR>
these included.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:41:05 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure (now OT)<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Jun 00, at 13:10, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Daughters tend to stay with the same group as their mothers, and will<BR>
> > likely breed with their father. (this is the root of maternal teaching,<BR>
> > since a mother chimp who teaches her daughter to raise babies well will<BR>
> > have her genes passed on more often. Or, rather, the genes in a good<BR>
> > teacher will see themselves passed on with higher frequency...it's all<BR>
> > still the genes, John ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> That is at least the theory.  Of course, no one has yet proven that <BR>
> there is a genetic basis for any such complex behaviors.  This lack <BR>
> is one of the major failings of sociobiology.<BR>
<BR>
I seem to remember from somewhere that for chimp this isn't actually <BR>
true - females tend to move to other troops, often several times before <BR>
they settle down.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:45:04 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure (now OT)<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Jun 00, at 13:10, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Similarly, the article on early hominids in the January 2000 <BR>
> Scientific American was a fascinating mixture of fact and <BR>
> nonsense.  The last portion (page 61-62) which attempts to explain <BR>
> the dominance of homo sapiens sapiens over other hominids <BR>
> entirely missed the fact that the discovery of Neanderthal hypoid <BR>
> (or whatever the name of the bones in the larynx is) in the early 90s<BR>
> proved that they were exceedingly likely be fully capable of speech. Such<BR>
> gross errors can be found in far too many articles on such topics in both<BR>
> newspapers and popular scientific magazines.  As an ardent postmodernist I<BR>
> strongly suspect that a bias to select articles with certain view points,<BR>
> regardless of their seeming accuracy and not merely carelessness is<BR>
> involved.<BR>
<BR>
As a cynic who had a flatmate studying psychology, I agree with you. If <BR>
you don't agree with a certain school of thought in psychology there <BR>
are some magazines you just don't even think about submitting your work <BR>
to, and this applies to all areas in psychology.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:51:13 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Inter and Intra Stellar Travel Coasting<BR>
<BR>
On 06/15/00 at 08:53 AM,  "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>and to do in-system coasting (for example, resupplying <BR>
>>that mining station on one of Saturn's moons). <BR>
<BR>
>IMO this is better performed by spaceships, rather than starships. Time<BR>
>is money, but there's a limit to how much time you can save and call it<BR>
>money.  <BR>
<BR>
>This will also depend on how big the system is.  Binary star systems <BR>
>with planets around each star would be especially good candidates for <BR>
>such "Jump Coasting", but I don't see it in a system where nothing is<BR>
>farther away than, say, the Mercury-Mars run, or even an Earth-Jupiter<BR>
>run.<BR>
<BR>
Minor campaign idea..<BR>
<BR>
Take a small cluster, say a dozen systems, most connected by a J1<BR>
main.  Given that some of the systems are going to binary or<BR>
trinary, there might be 20 or more good target markets among them,<BR>
and most could be serviced effeciently by J1 and J2 ships.  This<BR>
whole thing would fit into half a sub-sector but would have enough<BR>
size, scope and, with proper planning, variety for a long-running<BR>
campaign.<BR>
<BR>
Now, let's say the cluster is isolated from surrounding stars by a<BR>
minor rift with a couple of J3 or J4's entry points.  This would<BR>
mean that trade from/with the outside is focused through one or two<BR>
systems.  These one or two systems could be also be the base of our<BR>
campaigners who travelled and traded through the interior of the<BR>
cluster competing with other small trade groups.<BR>
<BR>
How does that look?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:57:12 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: HELP! Tracking ship movements in a system<BR>
<BR>
Hi David.  <BR>
<BR>
Not sure this is what you're looking for, but you can do this sort of<BR>
thing on a hex-map, although it's a bit grainy.  Have each hex be 10 Mkm<BR>
and each turn about 8 hours (31623 s is the exact figure, close enough to<BR>
28800 s for my purposes).  At this scale, 1 g for 1 turn produces 1<BR>
hex/turn of vector.  Use a standard "future position marker system" like<BR>
the one in G:T (IIRC) and you're good to go.  No calculator needed.  <BR>
<BR>
A few sheets of hex paper can be used to map out an inner system (about 30<BR>
hexes from Sol to Mars, IIRC) or the relationship between 2 or 3 outer<BR>
system planets.  Get a black hex map and some marbles for planets and it<BR>
has good visual appeal too... <BR>
<BR>
If you need a bigger scale, 20 Mkm hexes yeild very close to 12 hour<BR>
turns (44721 s, where 12*3600 = 43200).<BR>
<BR>
Note that this uses the standard "ship is at head of vector" fudge.<BR>
<BR>
HTH,<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:57:56 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Jun 00, at 18:27, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> James Pearson wrote:<BR>
> > What role do women play in Vilani society?<BR>
> <BR>
> IMTU, the same role as the men.<BR>
> <BR>
> A civilization evolving in such an unforgiving place as Vland could<BR>
> probably not afford not to have all its members trained for as many<BR>
> situations as possible. If we need to gather food, everyone gathers<BR>
> food. If we need to hunt, everyone hunts. If we need to file five copies<BR>
> of Form 18B12, everyone files five copies of Form 18B12.<BR>
<BR>
But it makes just as much sense to heavily specialize, so that those <BR>
performing each job are as efficient at it as possible.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2613<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2614</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 15 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2614<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
RE: Men & Women OT:<BR>
re: Inbreeding<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2612<BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs <BR>
Re: Near C Rocks<BR>
Bunker Design (was GURPS Character Design)<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure (now OT)<BR>
Fw: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:57:56 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Jun 00, at 13:44, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  A different situation is likely to exist in organisms that routinely<BR>
>  mate with close relatives, or have high levels of inbreeding for<BR>
>  other reasons.  In such cases the DR genes are having their nasty<BR>
>  effects regularly, and so natural selection has more chances to<BR>
>  take them out of the gene pool.  As a result, I would expect species<BR>
>  with a long history of inbreeding to be relatively immune to the<BR>
>  effects of inbreeding depression.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC there is/was a population in southern India that had at least some <BR>
members who inbred fairly often, and they weren't any less healthy than <BR>
those around them. I've often thought that they must have been <BR>
inbreeding long enough for this to happen.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:57:56 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Jun 00, at 12:27, Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> Frequently, individuals wishing to prove that something similar to modern<BR>
> homosexuality existed in Ancient Greece will quote from or focus on the<BR>
> second possibility, or someone will simply say something like, "It's a<BR>
> well known fact that the Sacred Band was made up of homosexuals," or,<BR>
> "Plutarch tells us that the sacred band was made up of homosexuals." Very<BR>
> rarely is it mentioned that Plutarch is giving his readers two<BR>
> possibilities.<BR>
<BR>
They also generally ignore the fact that Plutarch isn't the best of <BR>
sources. His writing were generally intended to put forward certain <BR>
people as examples of "good" or "bad" examples of how a man should act. <BR>
As a result he wasn't especially interested in perfect accuracy. He <BR>
also claimed that one man (I forget which) as a child had flowers <BR>
spring up wherever he walked (a sign that he would become a virtous <BR>
man).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:04:25 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Inbreeding<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
><BR>
>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>Most probable finding:  beautiful garden world with five <BR>
>>graves and a skeleton. <BR>
><BR>
>Pessimist. :-)<BR>
<BR>
No, realist.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:03:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> In mail sneadj@mindspring.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> Yay! An anthropologist!<BR>
><BR>
> Or to be a bit more correct, someone who got to being ABD in <BR>
> Anthropology and then gave it all up to become a full-time freelance <BR>
> RPG writer.  My 2nd book was doing shamans for Ars Magica, the <BR>
> same research I'd being doing before, but I didnt have to footnote <BR>
> and I could make stuff up :)<BR>
<BR>
Hey, you've still got btter qualifications than I do!<BR>
  <BR>
>>> One trivial example:  Try to pickup a living, white,  squirming<BR>
>>> beetle grub or termite larva and eat it, while it is still alive.<BR>
>>> Most Westerners will be unable to do so, and many of those that<BR>
>>> manage to do so will become physically ill. In some cultures such<BR>
>>> things are delicacies.  If one such person's taste treat is almost<BR>
>>> literally impossible for another person to eat,  consider how else<BR>
>>> culture shapes us.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I *think* I could do that, but it'd be an effort...<BR>
><BR>
> And, there is no way you'd enjoy the experience.<BR>
<BR>
Well, definitely not the first time. I've found that once the initial<BR>
"oh god, what am I *doing*!" is past, I can usually accept things on<BR>
their own merits. But then again, I'm *weird*. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> Much like the <BR>
> fact that in parts of Ancient Greece much of the male population <BR>
> was socialized so that homosexuality was what they did for <BR>
> recreation and heterosex was only for procreation.  <BR>
<BR>
I wonder if they had a need to keep the population low? It'd fit. Bit<BR>
then again, that's *way* too easy.<BR>
  <BR>
>> Actually, if you are willing to take the time, I think a list of not<BR>
>> just counter examples, but examples of how other cultures handle<BR>
>> almost *anything* that we take for granted in *different* ways would<BR>
>> be a great resource. It'd help us create *alien* human cultures. <BR>
><BR>
> Hmm, random examples:<BR>
>  <BR>
> A culture in Africa where every misfortune and illness is believed to <BR>
> be caused by some form of human-created black magic or ill-<BR>
> wishing.  Find the culprit in time and you can often make the bad <BR>
> thing stop (not a nice place to live).<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I remember hearing about that one. "You're a witch!"<BR>
<BR>
> Paleolithic Saharan rock paintings (back when the Saharan was <BR>
> verdant Savannah) show both men and women actively hunting <BR>
> large game together.  <BR>
<BR>
Ah! Interesting data point. <BR>
<BR>
> Recent Sythian archeology revealed that the Amazon legends were <BR>
> in part true.  In one large settlement there was a separate <BR>
> cemetery for women who were buried with full warrior goods and <BR>
> honors who seem to often have died by violence.  These women do <BR>
> not seem to have lived apart from the rest of the group, but they <BR>
> were warriors.  Many were teenagers, one supposition is that they <BR>
> used teenage girls as shock troops.  Data on this find is quite new, <BR>
> so there will likely be much more data to follow.<BR>
<BR>
Again, one of my thoughts would be to wonder if they had a surplus of<BR>
females... <BR>
<BR>
> Or in a more industrial but in some ways equally exotic bent, in pre-<BR>
> PRC Hong Kong, and to an extent in Japan, status (except for the <BR>
> *very* rich) is not based upon ownership of property or in Hong <BR>
> Kong even usually upon ownership of automobiles.  In Hong Kong, <BR>
> no one but the astoundingly rich owned such things Instead, it is <BR>
> based upon ownership of the correct brands of small consumer <BR>
> goods like electronics and clothes.  Very different from the US and <BR>
> most of Western Europe where land your dwelling = wealth & <BR>
> status.  <BR>
<BR>
Hate to tell you this, but you can find the same thing at many high<BR>
schools in the US. And even more so in the lower grades. Wear the wrong<BR>
brand of sneakers and you are an outcast...<BR>
<BR>
> Add in the fact that even the middle class lived with multiple people <BR>
> to a room and you have a very different society from the US, where <BR>
> socially defined  privacy replaces actual privacy.  I would expect <BR>
> cultures to be similar on many of the pop A high tech worlds of the <BR>
> Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Though actually, it takes a *lot* of people to fill even just the<BR>
temperate zone land of an Earth sized world to Hong Kong population<BR>
densities. <BR>
<BR>
> How about cultures with voluntary human sacrifice like in the Aztec <BR>
> ball games (the *winning* team was sacrificed and both teams <BR>
> knew this before the match started)?   <BR>
<BR>
Yeah, that's one of my favorite examples of *alien* though patterns. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> Throw in cultures where dress requirements go everything from full <BR>
> strict Muslim female garb to nearly nothing to further confuse <BR>
> things.  In college I  saw female Muslim students from Malaysia <BR>
> wearing what amounted to a tailored sheet with small holes for <BR>
> eyes (with a thin veil across it) & long sleeves (the sheet also went <BR>
> nearly to the floor).  You could add in gloves for even more <BR>
> coverage.  OTOH, in some groups living in the Amazon jungle, men <BR>
> and women walk around wearing nothing but a belt (which men tie <BR>
> their foreskins to <shudder>).     <BR>
<BR>
Hey, it stretches. You think *that's* bad, consider a body mod from<BR>
somewhere around Malaysia. I won't describe it, but do a web search on<BR>
"ampallang". And then consider that it's done without anaesthesia by<BR>
the natives. <BR>
     <BR>
> This is especially likely since there is proof of traditions lasting up <BR>
> to 20,000 years (yes, I said 20K years, one example being special <BR>
> stones which are revered in a isolated section of Northern <BR>
> Pakistan.  Altars involving these stones were found up to 20,000 <BR>
> years ago, and similar altars have been in use ever since, up to the <BR>
> present day.  The meanings of these could easily have changed, <BR>
> but the practice remains the same.  Other examples of similar <BR>
> phenomena exist, but I'd have to look them back up.  <BR>
<BR>
> Similarly, the "maternal instinct" in primates is learned behavior.  <BR>
> female primates reared w/o other females to teach them, lack all <BR>
> knowledge of and most inclination to perform infant care.  *At best* <BR>
> if they give birth their infant is at first an interesting new toy and <BR>
> then a boring old one (and soon thereafter usually dead).   <BR>
> Therefore, it's a good guess that current female nurturing behavior <BR>
> among humans is a cultural transmission which extends back to <BR>
> our prehuman ancestors, and is therefore a *multi-million* year <BR>
> cultural transmission.  Culture is powerful stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Have you heard about the studies that traced some childrens games and<BR>
ryhmes back several *centuries*. All transmitted from child to child.<BR>
At least, they are the sort of things adults are unlikely to have<BR>
bothered teaching the kids. <BR>
<BR>
Children have a culture of their own, and I sometimes think it's not<BR>
*nearly* as affected by adult rules as we'd like to think. I'm not as<BR>
certain as I could be, since I was something of an "outsider" to that<BR>
culture when I was a kid.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. Now *there* is an interesting thought.<BR>
<BR>
A planet where there really *are* several cultures. Divided by *age*.<BR>
Say, around age 4 the child leaves his or her mother, and is initiated<BR>
into the "childrens" culture. And failure to be acepted could have<BR>
severe consequences. <BR>
<BR>
Around puberty comes another culture switch. Again with initiation and<BR>
bad consequences of failure.<BR>
<BR>
Then at some point later you join the adult culture, and there may even<BR>
be an "old folks" culture.<BR>
<BR>
We actually *have* these stages in *our* society. But the demarcations<BR>
aren't all that sharp, nor are the transitions ritualized. <BR>
<BR>
Heck, with the right circumstances, I can even see the different<BR>
cultures winding up nearly *seperate* and interacting as little as<BR>
possible. That could even included schooling and training. <BR>
<BR>
It might seem odd to us, but I can see older "children" teaching the<BR>
younger ones all the stuff that is currently taught in school. And<BR>
possibly doing a better job!<BR>
<BR>
The "teenage" culture could likely do the same. And we already know<BR>
that adults can learn on their own or from other adults. :-)<BR>
<BR>
I expect that such a setup would be a lot more "tribal" (probably not<BR>
the right term, but I'm sure you get my drift) since both children and<BR>
teens tend that way anyway (at leasst in our culture, and I'm assuming<BR>
this is a "mutant offshoot" of ours). <BR>
<BR>
There'd have to be places/times when mixig was ok, like hospitals. And<BR>
I'm not at all sure how the economics would work (maybe it grew out of<BR>
a setup where automated factories provide the basic necessities for<BR>
"free"?) <BR>
<BR>
It'd be an interesting setup for the players to encounter. Especially<BR>
if they didn't bother checking the library data before wandering<BR>
around. <BR>
<BR>
Picture the fun as they wander into an area belonging to the kids, or<BR>
the teens and getting captured as intruders (arrested just doesn't seem<BR>
to fit :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:38:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>I call your attention to the Theban Sacred Bands....<<BR>
><BR>
> In what respect?<BR>
> I have seen the Sacred Bands referred to as both incredible fighters and<BR>
> worthless degenerates (in context, not from a 20th century viewpoint).<BR>
> Weren't they rather derided for not desiring any heterosexual contact?<BR>
> (Except possibly for rape during wars, I see conflicting accounts on that so<BR>
> I am not sure.)<BR>
<BR>
My knowledge of them is pretty much limited to their being formed of<BR>
pairs of men who were lovers. And supposedly at least part of the idea<BR>
was that they'd fight like demons rather than let down their partner or<BR>
show cowardice in front of him.<BR>
<BR>
I find this amusing on several levels when compared to current thought<BR>
regarding sexual bonds in military situations. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:43:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ian Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>and to do in-system coasting (for example, resupplying <BR>
>>that mining station on one of Saturn's moons). <BR>
><BR>
> IMO this is better performed by spaceships, rather than starships.<BR>
> Time is money, but there's a limit to how much time you can save<BR>
> and call it money.  <BR>
><BR>
> This will also depend on how big the system is.  Binary star systems <BR>
> with planets around each star would be especially good candidates for <BR>
> such "Jump Coasting", but I don't see it in a system where nothing is<BR>
> farther away than, say, the Mercury-Mars run, or even an Earth-Jupiter<BR>
> run.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, lets do a quick calculation. 3.5 days is 302,400 seconds.<BR>
D=.5*A*T^2, .5*T^2=4.6e10 <BR>
<BR>
A	D	 max V<BR>
- ----	-------	--------<BR>
1g	 3.0 AU	 3.0e3 km/sec (1% of c!)<BR>
2g 	 6.1 AU	 6.0e3 km/sec (2% of c!)<BR>
3g	 9.1 AU	 9.1e3 km/sec (3% of c!)<BR>
4g	12.2 AU	12.1e3 km/sec (4% of c!)<BR>
5g	15.2 AU	15.1e3 km/sec (5% of c!)<BR>
6g	18.3 AU	18.1e3 km/sec (6% of c!)<BR>
<BR>
So total trip distance in a week is *double* that. <BR>
<BR>
I'm actually rather surprised at these figures. I didn't think they be<BR>
that high. And the turnover speed explains why nobody does it. <BR>
<BR>
At 1% of c, a 1 *gram* bit of dust will relase the energy of two<BR>
*tonnes* of TNT upon impact. At 2% it'll release that of 9 tonnes, at<BR>
3%, 20 tonnes. At 4%, 35 tonnes. At 5%, 54 tonnes. And at 6%, the<BR>
energy of 78 tonnes of TNT.<BR>
<BR>
The energy goes linearly with mass, and as the square of the velocity.<BR>
<BR>
So at 1% of c a *milligram* particle hits like a 2 kilo demolition<BR>
charge. Only worse, because it's so concentrated. <BR>
<BR>
On top of that, stray atoms are moving fast enough to act like cosmic<BR>
rays... Gonna have one *hell* of a radiation problem. <BR>
<BR>
I suppose someone ought to sit down and figure what sort of gas/dust<BR>
densities are reasonable for various parts of various kinds of system,<BR>
and what the max safe speed is for those densities. <BR>
<BR>
For gas (stray atoms), it's either the speed at which they start acting<BR>
like particle radiation, or it's the speed at which the "trip dosage"<BR>
is too high, even allowing for shielding from the hull. Oh yeah, it<BR>
might be the speed at which it becomes unsafe to go outside the hul to<BR>
do repairs.<BR>
<BR>
For "dust", I'd say it's the one at which the total energy deposited in<BR>
the hull from *all* the particles the ship "sweeps up" during the high<BR>
speed part of the run amount to either an intolerable heat load, or the<BR>
equivalent of minor damage from weapons fire (ie just how badly *does*<BR>
all that dust erode the hell and the stuff on it).<BR>
<BR>
This would actually be kinda nice, because it'll remove most of the<BR>
silliness that thruster plates with their "accelerate forever" ability<BR>
introduced. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:16:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [Whimsical] Pretenders to the Crown?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The Phillipine question is:Would they have democratic elections without 1. <BR>
> The desire to emulate the biggest mofo<BR>
> 2. The biggest mofo _really_ leaning toward a world democracy or republic<BR>
<BR>
Actually, #2 isn't true. We have a long historyof supporting anybody<BR>
how claimed to be "anti-communist" even if they were worse<BR>
dictatorships than most Communist countries.<BR>
<BR>
The Communists were bad, but they didn't have death squads wandering<BR>
around either.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:19:52 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
<BR>
Robert Snyder wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> ><BR>
> >We now resume our regular coverage of how Feudal Technocracies<BR>
> >should use fighters to shoot down near C rocks navigated by<BR>
> >female Aslan in comfortable shoes.<BR>
> <BR>
> I became involved with Traveller in the CT era--about 1980 I think, but I am a newcomer to the<BR>
> TML.  Could someone explain to me what this sentence means ?<BR>
> <BR>
> "female Aslan in comfortable shoes", sounds like some sort of secret phrase exchanged by<BR>
> fanatical members of a secret society with the nefarious goal of simultaneously overthrowing<BR>
> all the governments in Charted Space and establishing a new unified utopian empire.<BR>
<BR>
Damn!  He's onto us!<BR>
<BR>
Robert, allow me to direct your attention to the next line in this post:<BR>
<BR>
(*)  <<red flash>><BR>
 ^<BR>
/ \<BR>
| |<BR>
| |<BR>
___<BR>
| |<BR>
| |<BR>
| |<BR>
| |<BR>
| |<BR>
|_|<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:23:21 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> ObTrav: Leave a population Zero world (say, six stranded human<BR>
> explorers, three men and three women) alone for 500 years on an<BR>
> uncharted garden world.  What will you find there when the planet is<BR>
> rediscovered?<BR>
<BR>
The wreckage of the Free Trader Minnow?<BR>
<BR>
(Wait, that would involve _seven_ stranded castaways....)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:27:59 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2612<BR>
<BR>
Dom wrote:<BR>
> At 0:29 -0400 15/6/00, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:<BR>
> >       "Imperial Elegy<BR>
> ><BR>
> >        You will reap what you sow<BR>
> >        Put your face to the ground<BR>
> >        Here come the marching men<BR>
> >        Your banners wrapped around"<BR>
> <BR>
> <snip><BR>
> <BR>
>  From the administrator's view point:<BR>
> <BR>
> "We got the kingdom, we got the key,<BR>
> We got the empire, now as then,<BR>
> We don't doubt, we don't take direction"<BR>
> <BR>
> which leads to... 'I hear empire down'. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Oh no, we're not up for another Flood of these, are we? We did this back <BR>
in 1959, and maybe I Was Wrong to think that we could just Walk Away from <BR>
it. <BR>
<BR>
I mean really, it's like Mother Russia during the cold war; we're Under <BR>
The Gun, caught between A Rock And A Hard Place. Either we show our Dominion <BR>
of the subject by making More references, in such rapid succession that <BR>
there's No Time To Cry, or be Driven Like The Snow into submission before<BR>
the Jihad.<BR>
<BR>
Alice, Marian, Lucretia, and Some Kind Of Stranger all agree with my <BR>
Logic. Gimme Shelter before the Damage is Done.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:37:56 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs <BR>
<BR>
> From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
> Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
><BR>
> I think you're pushing these ships into the wrong market niche.<BR>
><BR>
> The Free Trader is a *small* ship.  It doesn't always have to go to high-<BR>
> pop worlds to make profits, it's small enough to make money stopping at<BR>
> just about every two-bit smaller world - that's the whole point of it.<BR>
> It's not a matter of the Far Trader making twice as many runs a year.<BR>
> They're both making nearly as many stops, but while the Far Trader is<BR>
> hauling expenses, the Free Trader is - with shorter hops - hauling<BR>
> *profits*.<BR>
<BR>
The absolute fundamental problem with this is that small worlds will tend to<BR>
export to, and import from, big worlds, not to each other.<BR>
<BR>
A 200 dton Free Traders' other problem with two bit worlds is all those IISS<BR>
surplus type S scouts floating around. I suspect it's them, rather than type<BR>
A1s, that do most of the trade to pop 4 and down worlds.<BR>
<BR>
> For a four parsec direct run between two high-pop worlds, both the<BR>
> Free Trader and Far Trader are going to get blown away by the big<BR>
> Jump-4 (or 2XJump-2) cargo liners that this long term profit-making<BR>
> trade route will develop.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
No. The optimum size for a trader is jump-3. A jump-4 route will see jump-2<BR>
traders dominate, with a refuelling stop in the middle (the 2 days to go in<BR>
and refuel arent worth losing 20% of your ship's volume for).<BR>
<BR>
> Ian again:<BR>
> >Jump-1 traders are, generally speaking, only viable to do certain<BR>
> >specific runs,<BR>
><BR>
> Like any run involving a thinly-inhabited Jump-1 main in the same<BR>
> area as high-pop worlds.<BR>
<BR>
No, because you are better off doing a hub-and-spoke type arrangement. Mains<BR>
are really irrelevant, once you invent jump-2.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >and to do in-system coasting (for example, resupplying<BR>
> >that mining station on one of Saturn's moons).<BR>
><BR>
> IMO this is better performed by spaceships, rather than starships.<BR>
> Time is money, but there's a limit to how much time you can save<BR>
> and call it money.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Yes, but in jumpspace, no-one can pull an intercept vector ... while I<BR>
believe that mainworlds can be protected against p!r!cy, the outsystem is a<BR>
whole new ballgame.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:46:43 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Near C Rocks<BR>
<BR>
Feh!  I doesn't allow speeds above 72 kps or some such!  <BR>
<Homer>BO-RING!</Homer><BR>
<BR>
Charles C. :-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:49:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: Bunker Design (was GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:43:54 -0400<BR>
>From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
>Subject: Bunker Design (was GURPS Character Design)<BR>
><BR>
>>Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
>> Actually, that would not work.  The ventilation shafts in German<BR>
>> bunkers had this nifty little dog-leg (Vargr-leg?) so fluids and<BR>
>> foreign objects like grenades would fall harmlessly into a sump<BR>
>> outside the bunker.  In addition, the vents could be sealed in case<BR>
>> of a gas/smoke attack.<BR>
><BR>
>That would be nice if they were in a German bunker.<BR>
><BR>
>The "Bunker" in question was the cellar of a *French* chateau,<BR>
>and obviously - as the Dirty Dozen's fuel and grenades plan<BR>
>worked - hadn't been upgraded to German bunker standards.<BR>
<BR>
	Cool; I stand corrected, though I was refering more to the general<BR>
situation than the specific movie...speaking of which, it is getting to be<BR>
longer since I've last seen that film than I care to remember...gotta put a<BR>
trip to Blockbuster on the ol' "ToDo" list.<BR>
<BR>
	Oh yes...another tidbit with which to ruin a PC's day:  The bunkers usually<BR>
had a firing port for a machine gun that was sited to cover the entrance,<BR>
usually firing in enfilade up a staircase/tunnel.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- -<BR>
Disclaimer:  The half-baked opinions expressed above are my own fault.<BR>
Anyone attempting to blame them on my employer is nuttier than I am.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:52:51 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure (now OT)<BR>
<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 15 Jun 00, at 13:10, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > > Daughters tend to stay with the same group as their mothers, and<BR>
> > > will likely breed with their father. (this is the root of maternal<BR>
> > > teaching, since a mother chimp who teaches her daughter to raise<BR>
> > > babies well will have her genes passed on more often. Or, rather,<BR>
> > > the genes in a good teacher will see themselves passed on with<BR>
> > > higher frequency...it's all still the genes, John ;-)<BR>
> > <BR>
> > That is at least the theory.  Of course, no one has yet proven that<BR>
> > there is a genetic basis for any such complex behaviors.  This lack<BR>
> > is one of the major failings of sociobiology.<BR>
> <BR>
> I seem to remember from somewhere that for chimp this isn't actually<BR>
> true - females tend to move to other troops, often several times<BR>
> before they settle down.<BR>
<BR>
Cool!  I hadn't heard that, but I've been out of the field for a few <BR>
years.  Thanks for the info, if you remember where you saw this let <BR>
me know.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com   <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:51:55 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Fw: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
To: <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 8:23 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> But why is the Imperium spending all this time and effort on subsiduary<BR>
> fleets, when it can let Adam Smith's Invisible Hand do all the work ?<BR>
><BR>
> The problem is that most traders will want to bid below Cr 1000 per dton<BR>
per<BR>
> parsec. If this price is enforced, you are going to have to regulate the<BR>
> amount of shipping allowed to operate (or you will get a glut).<BR>
><BR>
> And if you have a glut, then you will have traders willing to have<BR>
> 'undocumented cargo' on board, in the "empty space" they couldnt sell.<BR>
><BR>
> I really cant see why the Imperium would care to inflate freight charges<BR>
> that much ...<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Ian Whitchurch<BR>
><BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Michael Koehne" <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
> To: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au>;<BR>
> <traveller@MPGN.COM><BR>
> Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 11:17 PM<BR>
> Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > Moin Katharine Whitchurch,<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > This isnt going to work. What you do is have the shipper enter into<BR>
two<BR>
> > > contracts - one to buy the cargo from the customer at <price>, and the<BR>
> > > second to sell to the customer at the destination world at <price plus<BR>
> > > shipping cost>. This way, according to the paperwork, the cargo is<BR>
owned<BR>
> by<BR>
> > > the shipper for the duration, and is thus speculative cargo, not<BR>
> freight, so<BR>
> > > the freight laws do not apply.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   I was talking about freight - not cargo - and my handwave was, that<BR>
the<BR>
> >   imperial credit is backed by the imperial subsidary freight capacity.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   This mean that an 1kCr can buy freight space of 1dt for exactly one<BR>
> >   parsec regardless on any imperial subsidary trader/liner. And anybody<BR>
> >   can buy a high passage ticket for 10kCr per jump on those liners also.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > The problem is that the vast majority of the Imperial economy is on<BR>
the<BR>
> > > hi-pop worlds. Thus, the vast majority of Imperial trade is between<BR>
> these<BR>
> > > hi-pop worlds. The mains are merely incidental.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   The typical Imperial subsidary liner is for this reason capable of<BR>
jump<BR>
> 3.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   The availability of jump 2 liners gave the early Sylean Trade<BR>
Federation<BR>
> >   an advantage over other starfaring societies. So while Sylean credit<BR>
was<BR>
> >   interchangeble with Vilani credit, as long as Sylea had been TL:10,<BR>
the<BR>
> >   decission to base the credit on dt/jump and not on dt/parsec increased<BR>
> >   the strength of the Sylean credit once they estabilshed the first the<BR>
> >   jump 2 routes for their liners.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   The economic idea behind subsidary fleet is :<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   - currently any staate in the world that has a tradefleet and<BR>
maintains<BR>
> >     shipyards, is subsidize those shipyards and fleet by a large<BR>
fraction.<BR>
> >     Without this subsidy shipowners wont make any profit and go<BR>
bankrupt.<BR>
> >     This will cause lack of import/export capacity for those countries,<BR>
> >     who therefor continue to subsidize ships and shipyards.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   - my other important handwave is that no economic system could sustain<BR>
> >     a techlevel greater than its population level without external<BR>
trade.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   So not only the stability of the imperial credit is backed by the<BR>
> >   subsidary fleet, but also the complete economic stability of the<BR>
> >   imperium. The lack of freight capacity, caused the long night and<BR>
> >   also caused most most systems to fail sustaining their technology<BR>
> >   during the rebellion long before virus arived, IMTU.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   I call, even with those two handwaves, CT,MT,TNE and T4 trade broken,<BR>
> >   once we shift from artifical prices for subsidary freight to<BR>
speculative<BR>
> >   trade. Free Traders have to rely on speculative trade for doing any<BR>
> profit<BR>
> >   as they can never compete with subsidary freight rates. But bulk cargo<BR>
> like<BR>
> >   those given in the rules, will not make a good profit, so its<BR>
necessary<BR>
> to<BR>
> >   multiply those given prices per dt by a random factor.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Bye Michael<BR>
> > --<BR>
> >   mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.?<BR>
> 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
> >   http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE<BR>
DELENDAM<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
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To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2614<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2615</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 15 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2615<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Fw: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2613<BR>
Re: body mods<BR>
Supernova - Film - Query<BR>
Re: system data format<BR>
RE: Fiddling with "High Guard"<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2612<BR>
Re: Vilani Women<BR>
Re: Inter and Intra Stellar Travel Coasting<BR>
Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
Merciful puns<BR>
Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
Re: Supernova - Film - Query<BR>
Re: Roc: Men & Women OT:<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Roc: Bunker Design.<BR>
Re: Long-distance introduction to CT<BR>
Re: Bunker Design (was GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:53:45 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Fw: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
To: <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 8:23 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
But why is the Imperium spending all this time and effort on subsidised<BR>
fleets, when it can let Adam Smith's Invisible Hand do all the work ?<BR>
<BR>
 The problem is that most traders will want to bid below Cr 1000 per dton<BR>
per<BR>
 parsec. If this price is enforced, you are going to have to regulate the<BR>
 amount of shipping allowed to operate (or you will get  glut).<BR>
<BR>
 And if you have a glut, then you will have traders willing to have<BR>
 'undocumented cargo' on board, in the "empty space" they couldnt sell.<BR>
<BR>
I really cant see why the Imperium would care to inflate freight charges,<BR>
thus reducing the amount of interstellar trade, that much ...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
 ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Michael Koehne" <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
> To: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au>;<BR>
> <traveller@MPGN.COM><BR>
> Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 11:17 PM<BR>
> Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > Moin Katharine Whitchurch,<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > This isnt going to work. What you do is have the shipper enter into<BR>
two<BR>
> > > contracts - one to buy the cargo from the customer at <price>, and the<BR>
> > > second to sell to the customer at the destination world at <price plus<BR>
> > > shipping cost>. This way, according to the paperwork, the cargo is<BR>
owned<BR>
> by<BR>
> > > the shipper for the duration, and is thus speculative cargo, not<BR>
> freight, so<BR>
> > > the freight laws do not apply.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   I was talking about freight - not cargo - and my handwave was, that<BR>
the<BR>
> >   imperial credit is backed by the imperial subsidary freight capacity.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   This mean that an 1kCr can buy freight space of 1dt for exactly one<BR>
> >   parsec regardless on any imperial subsidary trader/liner. And anybody<BR>
> >   can buy a high passage ticket for 10kCr per jump on those liners also.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > The problem is that the vast majority of the Imperial economy is on<BR>
the<BR>
> > > hi-pop worlds. Thus, the vast majority of Imperial trade is between<BR>
> these<BR>
> > > hi-pop worlds. The mains are merely incidental.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   The typical Imperial subsidary liner is for this reason capable of<BR>
jump<BR>
> 3.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   The availability of jump 2 liners gave the early Sylean Trade<BR>
Federation<BR>
> >   an advantage over other starfaring societies. So while Sylean credit<BR>
was<BR>
> >   interchangeble with Vilani credit, as long as Sylea had been TL:10,<BR>
the<BR>
> >   decission to base the credit on dt/jump and not on dt/parsec increased<BR>
> >   the strength of the Sylean credit once they estabilshed the first the<BR>
> >   jump 2 routes for their liners.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   The economic idea behind subsidary fleet is :<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   - currently any staate in the world that has a tradefleet and<BR>
maintains<BR>
> >     shipyards, is subsidize those shipyards and fleet by a large<BR>
fraction.<BR>
> >     Without this subsidy shipowners wont make any profit and go<BR>
bankrupt.<BR>
> >     This will cause lack of import/export capacity for those countries,<BR>
> >     who therefor continue to subsidize ships and shipyards.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   - my other important handwave is that no economic system could sustain<BR>
> >     a techlevel greater than its population level without external<BR>
trade.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   So not only the stability of the imperial credit is backed by the<BR>
> >   subsidary fleet, but also the complete economic stability of the<BR>
> >   imperium. The lack of freight capacity, caused the long night and<BR>
> >   also caused most most systems to fail sustaining their technology<BR>
> >   during the rebellion long before virus arived, IMTU.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   I call, even with those two handwaves, CT,MT,TNE and T4 trade broken,<BR>
> >   once we shift from artifical prices for subsidary freight to<BR>
speculative<BR>
> >   trade. Free Traders have to rely on speculative trade for doing any<BR>
> profit<BR>
> >   as they can never compete with subsidary freight rates. But bulk cargo<BR>
> like<BR>
> >   those given in the rules, will not make a good profit, so its<BR>
necessary<BR>
> to<BR>
> >   multiply those given prices per dt by a random factor.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Bye Michael<BR>
> > --<BR>
> >   mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.?<BR>
> 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
> >   http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE<BR>
DELENDAM<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:56:42 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2613<BR>
<BR>
<Jens><BR>
> "female Aslan in comfortable shoes", sounds like some sort of secret<BR>
phrase<BR>
> exchanged by fanatical members of a secret society with the nefarious<BR>
goal<BR>
> of simultaneously overthrowing all the governments in Charted Space and<BR>
> establishing a new unified utopian empire. :)<BR>
<BR>
Indeed it is. The organization is commonly known as the TML, which is an<BR>
abbrevation for "The Traveller Mailing List."<BR>
</Jens><BR>
<BR>
GAH!  Jens, you gave it away!  He's a newbie!  Heck, he hasn't even<BR>
dragged the "stone of initiation" through the parking lot yet, much less<BR>
endured the ritual of naked bacon frying!  Sheesh, what is this secret<BR>
society coming to?! We might as well just let in anyone who watches<BR>
"Regis & Kathie-Lee"! <BR>
<BR>
Charles C. (Great Muck-a-muck of the Dobshead Slackite Chapter)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:57:02 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: body mods<BR>
<BR>
on 6/14/00 11:28 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
>> At 05:08 PM 6/14/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> Heck, I just remembered a real world mod that (I'm told) is fairly<BR>
>>> simple. Remember KISS? One of them (Gene Simmons?) is rumored to have<BR>
>>> had an operation that allowed him to stick his toungue out so far.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> My cousin used to date him.  That's *all* Gene.  It's odd, in person he's<BR>
>> this really relaxed, mellow guy.<BR>
> <BR>
> As I understand it, the operation just "cuts" some "attachment points".<BR>
> No stretching or the like. It's just free to come farther out of the<BR>
> mouth. <BR>
 <BR>
Another mod becoming popular is 'tongue splitting'.  Just like it sound.<BR>
For all you reptile wannabes.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:08:08 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Supernova - Film - Query<BR>
<BR>
Supernova is released in the UK tomorrow - film about a rescue ship <BR>
that misjumps.<BR>
<BR>
Is it worth seeing?<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:08:47 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: system data format<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> What exactly *is* the current "standard" format for system data files?<BR>
> <BR>
> And which of the following is *not* included?<BR>
> <BR>
> (the following are required for a *2-d* system)<BR>
<BR>
You need all that data only if you're designing a simulation.<BR>
If you're designing a game, then you can abstract it quite a <BR>
bit.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:24:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fiddling with "High Guard"<BR>
<BR>
I used to do this for my Hard Time campain - I just assumed 20 tons per dton<BR>
as average and went with it. :)<BR>
<BR>
I was much less a gearhead then.. Oh the memorys of the happy, shiny<BR>
times...<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of John P.<BR>
Raynor<BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 6:25 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Fiddling with "High Guard"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Having grown rather dissatisfied with the "T4" version of "Fire,<BR>
Fusion, and Steel" (I love the level of detail it offers, but find<BR>
its lack of guidelines and examples frustrating), I've decided to<BR>
try to extend the starship design rules in "Book 5: High Guard" to<BR>
cover reaction drives (since I really like HEPlaR, and find thruster<BR>
plates aesthetically distasteful).<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, I'm going to have to figure out how to calculate the<BR>
masses of "High Guard" starships to make this work properly.  I've<BR>
narrowed the problem down to two regions: weapons, and "the bridge."<BR>
Using the examples offered in the "Standard Starship Design System,"<BR>
I've estimated the average densities of spinal mount meson guns and<BR>
and particle accelerators, but I'm having difficulty with weapons<BR>
mounted in bays and turrets.  Can anyone tell me how massive these<BR>
things are?  "The bridge" is an even bigger problem, since it doesn't<BR>
really correspond with any particular "Fire, Fusion, and Steel"<BR>
component.  Any help would be gratefully appreciated.  Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
                                                      - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:38:42 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2612<BR>
<BR>
Applause - Very well done!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Russell<BR>
Bornschlegel<BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 3:28 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2612<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dom wrote:<BR>
> At 0:29 -0400 15/6/00, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:<BR>
> >       "Imperial Elegy<BR>
> ><BR>
> >        You will reap what you sow<BR>
> >        Put your face to the ground<BR>
> >        Here come the marching men<BR>
> >        Your banners wrapped around"<BR>
><BR>
> <snip><BR>
><BR>
>  From the administrator's view point:<BR>
><BR>
> "We got the kingdom, we got the key,<BR>
> We got the empire, now as then,<BR>
> We don't doubt, we don't take direction"<BR>
><BR>
> which leads to... 'I hear empire down'. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Oh no, we're not up for another Flood of these, are we? We did this back<BR>
in 1959, and maybe I Was Wrong to think that we could just Walk Away from<BR>
it.<BR>
<BR>
I mean really, it's like Mother Russia during the cold war; we're Under<BR>
The Gun, caught between A Rock And A Hard Place. Either we show our Dominion<BR>
of the subject by making More references, in such rapid succession that<BR>
there's No Time To Cry, or be Driven Like The Snow into submission before<BR>
the Jihad.<BR>
<BR>
Alice, Marian, Lucretia, and Some Kind Of Stranger all agree with my<BR>
Logic. Gimme Shelter before the Damage is Done.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:47:53 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> But it makes just as much sense to heavily specialize, so that those<BR>
> performing each job are as efficient at it as possible.<BR>
<BR>
True (I guess). The problem with such a society is that if Ahragiiriikha<BR>
dies while collecting oil from that flesh eating fungus that grows on<BR>
the side of sheer cliffs, no one else knows how to do the job well<BR>
enough.<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:49:37 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Inter and Intra Stellar Travel Coasting<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Minor campaign idea..<BR>
> <BR>
> Take a small cluster, say a dozen systems, most connected by a J1<BR>
> main.  Given that some of the systems are going to binary or<BR>
> trinary, there might be 20 or more good target markets among them,<BR>
> and most could be serviced effeciently by J1 and J2 ships.  This<BR>
> whole thing would fit into half a sub-sector but would have enough<BR>
> size, scope and, with proper planning, variety for a long-running<BR>
> campaign.<BR>
> <BR>
> Now, let's say the cluster is isolated from surrounding stars by a<BR>
> minor rift with a couple of J3 or J4's entry points.  This would<BR>
> mean that trade from/with the outside is focused through one or two<BR>
> systems.  These one or two systems could be also be the base of our<BR>
> campaigners who travelled and traded through the interior of the<BR>
> cluster competing with other small trade groups.<BR>
> <BR>
> How does that look?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Like the Quental Main? :-P<BR>
<BR>
(in joke...the Quental Main is the area of Eris' TU that we're playing<BR>
our PBEM game in, and let me tell you it's getting more interesting all<BR>
the time, even if we ARE roleplaying eating our _second_ bowl of cereal<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:55:14 -0700<BR>
From: Cheryl <cheryl@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/14/00 9:30 PM, Rob Eaglestone at downport@home.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> red@europa.com wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Then again, the GM wasn't anywhere near as good<BR>
>> as our current one, the Evil Tod.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Red<BR>
> <BR>
> Oh yeah baby, I've seen his website.  I've read<BR>
> the logs.  He's a sneaky one, that's for sure.<BR>
> Where are you guys again?  Maybe I can get a<BR>
> transfer...<BR>
> <BR>
> Rob<BR>
> <BR>
Portland, OR. And the Evil Tod occasionally welcomes fresh meat, I mean new<BR>
players.<BR>
<BR>
- -Cheryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 02:01:56 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Merciful puns<BR>
<BR>
Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
> Oh no, we're not up for another Flood of these, are we? We did this back<BR>
> in 1959, and maybe I Was Wrong to think that we could just Walk Away from<BR>
> it.<BR>
> <BR>
> I mean really, it's like Mother Russia during the cold war; we're Under<BR>
> The Gun, caught between A Rock And A Hard Place. Either we show our Dominion<BR>
> of the subject by making More references, in such rapid succession that<BR>
> there's No Time To Cry, or be Driven Like The Snow into submission before<BR>
> the Jihad.<BR>
> <BR>
> Alice, Marian, Lucretia, and Some Kind Of Stranger all agree with my<BR>
> Logic. Gimme Shelter before the Damage is Done.<BR>
<BR>
From the defending army's viewpoint:<BR>
<BR>
We are not about to let the army of the Jihad advance into our<BR>
Heartland. Rest assured that no one of our soldiers will be Giving<BR>
Ground to our enemy, at least not on my Watch. If we do have to retreat<BR>
from an area, we will Torch everything of value, watching it Burn as we<BR>
leave. We refuse to bow down and Kiss the Carpet before our enemy's<BR>
feet!<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:55:17 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
> At 03:50 PM 6/14/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >But a leader who was 'married' to another man would<BR>
probably<BR>
> >not be 'seen as stable, secure, and supportive',<BR>
hence the<BR>
> >expectations are heteronormative.<BR>
<BR>
We have a number of openly Gay cabinat ministers.<BR>
Sometime<BR>
during the 1990s it became a non-issue in British<BR>
politics. I<BR>
think it was one of them paradigm shifts that you don't<BR>
notice<BR>
until it happened.<BR>
<BR>
Edward Heath, a conservative Prime Minister from the<BR>
1970s<BR>
was (and still is) a bachelor, and a yachtsman to boot.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:03:06 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova - Film - Query<BR>
<BR>
Its mediocre....<BR>
<BR>
At 12:08 AM +0100 6/16/00, SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
>Supernova is released in the UK tomorrow - film about a rescue ship <BR>
>that misjumps.<BR>
><BR>
>Is it worth seeing?<BR>
><BR>
>Cheers,<BR>
><BR>
>Dom<BR>
>----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
>"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
>can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
>http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:26:19 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 2:58:am<BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Men & Women OT:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> The Roc wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Actually, homosexual males don't have to be married at all to be seen as<BR>
> > stable, provided they have a history of being with the one partner they<BR>
are<BR>
> > viewed as very stable indeed - and reap whatever rewards may accompany<BR>
that<BR>
> > stability.  So perhaps it's only hetero males that have that<BR>
non-stability<BR>
> > problem?  Though very few outed homosexual males are known if<BR>
politics...<BR>
><BR>
> There are more than you might think...<BR>
<BR>
I will heartily agree that there are probably more than I can imagine!<BR>
Having seen both the ignorance shown towards homosexuals and the hard faught<BR>
successes of them as well.  As for there being one in, say Arizona, it isn't<BR>
common knowledge to many ordinary Australians, and I'd dare to say perhaps<BR>
even to New Zealanders, or the English, or Germans, etc...  And having said<BR>
that, for all I know, there could be a great many in German politics that<BR>
aren't really known about by the average person in Australia, NZ, UK, etc.,<BR>
etc.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:39:09 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote: <BR>
<BR>
> > Recent Sythian archeology revealed that the Amazon legends were in<BR>
> > part true.  In one large settlement there was a separate cemetery<BR>
> > for women who were buried with full warrior goods and honors who<BR>
> > seem to often have died by violence.  These women do not seem to<BR>
> > have lived apart from the rest of the group, but they were warriors.<BR>
> >  Many were teenagers, one supposition is that they used teenage<BR>
> > girls as shock troops.  Data on this find is quite new, so there<BR>
> > will likely be much more data to follow.<BR>
> <BR>
> Again, one of my thoughts would be to wonder if they had a surplus of<BR>
> females... <BR>
<BR>
That's been suggested, but this is new info and so much remains <BR>
to be learned.<BR>
 <BR>
> > Throw in cultures where dress requirements go everything from full<BR>
> > strict Muslim female garb to nearly nothing to further confuse<BR>
> > things.  In college I  saw female Muslim students from Malaysia<BR>
> > wearing what amounted to a tailored sheet with small holes for eyes<BR>
> > (with a thin veil across it) & long sleeves (the sheet also went<BR>
> > nearly to the floor).  You could add in gloves for even more<BR>
> > coverage.  OTOH, in some groups living in the Amazon jungle, men and<BR>
> > women walk around wearing nothing but a belt (which men tie their<BR>
> > foreskins to <shudder>).     <BR>
> <BR>
> Hey, it stretches. You think *that's* bad, consider a body mod from<BR>
> somewhere around Malaysia. I won't describe it, but do a web search on<BR>
> "ampallang". And then consider that it's done without anaesthesia by<BR>
> the natives. <BR>
<BR>
Yep, while that's even scarier, the worst is in (IIRC) pre-modern <BR>
Thailand, where the local version of the ribbed condom involved bits <BR>
of gravel, incisions, and no condom (used purely to enhance <BR>
sensation).  That one *really* squicks me.<BR>
 <BR>
> Have you heard about the studies that traced some childrens games and<BR>
> ryhmes back several *centuries*. All transmitted from child to child.<BR>
> At least, they are the sort of things adults are unlikely to have<BR>
> bothered teaching the kids.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, some of the nursery rhymes are at least 700 years old and <BR>
could easily be 1,000s of years old.  The recently found a fully <BR>
intact Middle Kingdom Egyptian flute, and did elaborate tests to <BR>
discover what scale the flute used, it was the same one we do.  <BR>
Tunes like "Mary had a little lamb" could be thousands of years <BR>
old, and (with different words) would likely still be around <BR>
somewhere in the Imperium.  <BR>
 <BR>
> Children have a culture of their own, and I sometimes think it's not<BR>
> *nearly* as affected by adult rules as we'd like to think. I'm not as<BR>
> certain as I could be, since I was something of an "outsider" to that<BR>
> culture when I was a kid.<BR>
> <BR>
> Hmm. Now *there* is an interesting thought.<BR>
> <BR>
> A planet where there really *are* several cultures. Divided by *age*.<BR>
> Say, around age 4 the child leaves his or her mother, and is initiated<BR>
> into the "childrens" culture. And failure to be acepted could have<BR>
> severe consequences. <BR>
<BR>
Take a look at some of the East African cultures (IIRC in Nigeria or <BR>
Kenya) with age-grades bands.  The British guy who created the <BR>
boy-scouts (loosely) based their structure on this culture.  Young <BR>
men have separate societies separated into various age groups.  <BR>
Expanding on this for a larger, high-tech culture could be way cool! <BR>
<BR>
> Heck, with the right circumstances, I can even see the different<BR>
> cultures winding up nearly *seperate* and interacting as little as<BR>
> possible. That could even included schooling and training. <BR>
> <BR>
> It might seem odd to us, but I can see older "children" teaching the<BR>
> younger ones all the stuff that is currently taught in school. And<BR>
> possibly doing a better job!<BR>
<BR>
Definitely, between computer databases and older kids teaching <BR>
younger kids, it could work quite well.<BR>
 <BR>
> There'd have to be places/times when mixig was ok, like hospitals. <BR>
<BR>
Separate wards, use automeds for minor illnesses, doctors, nurses <BR>
and others who cross age grades to treat or work with people <BR>
would have a special status and would likely be regarded as odd, <BR>
sacred, or otherwise outside the normal social structure. <BR>
<BR>
> And<BR>
> I'm not at all sure how the economics would work (maybe it grew out of<BR>
> a setup where automated factories provide the basic necessities for<BR>
> "free"?) <BR>
<BR>
Perhaps, alternatives include<BR>
<BR>
Special cross-grade merchants, or maybe certain age grades <BR>
provide certain resources for other grades, perhaps merely by <BR>
bringing them to a certain locations, where the other groups pick <BR>
them up w/o direct contact. <BR>
 <BR>
Much fun-<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:41:52 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Bunker Design.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Rodney Basler <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 5:29:am<BR>
Subject: Bunker Design (was GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:19:01 -0500<BR>
> >From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
> ><BR>
> ><snippage><BR>
> ><BR>
> >Jeff: "You know, if we pour gasoline down the ventilation shafts, then<BR>
> >throw down a few grenades, I bet that we could kill lots of the enemy<BR>
> >soldiers in that underground shelter."  <<rolls 18 on 3d6>><BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> Actually, that would not work.  The ventilation shafts in German bunkers<BR>
> had this nifty little dog-leg (Vargr-leg?) so fluids and foreign objects<BR>
> like grenades would fall harmlessly into a sump outside the bunker.<BR>
<BR>
Hang-on!  I have seen the Dirty Dozen, Black ICE had the right idea, you're<BR>
just making things up... Lee Marvin wouldn't lie to us!!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:00:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Long-distance introduction to CT<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Richard writes:<BR>
>>I'm gearing up to run a PBEM game for some friends, and while the <BR>
>>setting is pretty far removed from the 3I, the CT rules would suit it <BR>
>>pretty well.  The catch is that most of the group aren't familiar with <BR>
>>CT, and loaning out my rulebooks isn't really an option because of <BR>
>>distance.<BR>
>>I suppose I could just email them a "handout" summarizing character <BR>
>>creation -- but making one would probably entail retyping or OCRing most <BR>
>>of book 1, which would be annoying even if it weren't a violation of <BR>
>>copyright.  Does anyone have any suggestions?<BR>
<BR>
If I had copies of the CT character generator programs I wrote *many*<BR>
years ago, I'd send them to you. After all, they *have* to have a<BR>
computer to send mail (well, they might use Web-TV, but I'd hope gamers<BR>
are smater than that). <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:03:46 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Bunker Design (was GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Jeff: "You know, if we pour gasoline down the ventilation shafts, then<BR>
>>throw down a few grenades, I bet that we could kill lots of the enemy<BR>
>>soldiers in that underground shelter."  <<rolls 18 on 3d6>><BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
>      Actually, that would not work.  The ventilation shafts in German bunkers<BR>
> had this nifty little dog-leg (Vargr-leg?) so fluids and foreign objects<BR>
> like grenades would fall harmlessly into a sump outside the bunker.  In<BR>
> addition, the vents could be sealed in case of a gas/smoke attack.  All the<BR>
> soldiers carried gasmasks with them (the lessons in chemical warfare from<BR>
> WWI were not lost on the Germans), and the air inside the bunkers would last<BR>
> for hours at least.  The entrances were even set up like air-locks.<BR>
<BR>
Which is why you use an odorless, colorless gas from a FAE setup. Turn<BR>
the bunker into one big demolition charge. <eg><BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure if modern bunkers have detection equipment for *that* sort<BR>
of gas.<BR>
<BR>
ps. I only though of this because I saw a program on engineering<BR>
disasters last night and one of them was about an underground<BR>
waterworks in Britain exploding because of methane seeping into the big<BR>
pipes bringing in the water.<BR>
<BR>
>   ObTrav:  GMs, remember that most of the cute tricks that players will think<BR>
> up for knocking out emplacements have already been thought of decades, if<BR>
> not centuries, ago.<BR>
<BR>
And this is also an argument for trying to avoid using large amounts of<BR>
"technobabble". At least if something follows real science, you can get<BR>
a definite "it'll work" or "It won't work".<BR>
<BR>
With technobabble, it gets ugly.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2615<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2616</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 16 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2616<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
Re: Merciful puns<BR>
Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
Re: Screening - was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2606<BR>
Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
re: Inbreeding<BR>
Re: Inbreeding<BR>
Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
Re: Vilani Women<BR>
Re: Inter and Intra Stellar Travel Coasting<BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
Re: Empress Wave/Zhodani Exodus after 1200?<BR>
Re: inbreeding (Not OT)<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:08:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>>A different situation is likely to exist in organisms that routinely <BR>
>>mate with close relatives, or have high levels of inbreeding for <BR>
>>other reasons.  In such cases the DR genes are having their nasty <BR>
>>effects regularly, and so natural selection has more chances to <BR>
>>take them out of the gene pool.  As a result, I would expect species <BR>
>>with a long history of inbreeding to be relatively immune to the <BR>
>>effects of inbreeding depression. <BR>
><BR>
> How about Cheetahs?<BR>
><BR>
> According to http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s40791.htm, <BR>
> the world population of Cheetahs dropped to less than *seven* some<BR>
> 10,000 years ago, and possibly suffered this severe a population drop<BR>
> more than once.  The species is now so inbred that all cheetahs are<BR>
> almost genetically identical to each other.<BR>
<BR>
A theory I've heard put forth is that the *entire* wild population died<BR>
out or was hunted to extinction. The current population is descended<BR>
from cheetahs used by the Ancient Egyptians for hunting. Or more<BR>
properly, from escapees. <BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: Leave a population Zero world (say, six stranded human<BR>
> explorers, three men and three women) alone for 500 years on an<BR>
> uncharted garden world.  What will you find there when the planet is <BR>
> rediscovered?<BR>
<BR>
They may all die. Or you could find a *very* odd population, as small<BR>
populations have a very high chance of losing genes through sheer<BR>
random chance.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:19:58 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
<BR>
At 10:53 AM 6/15/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> ><BR>
> >We now resume our regular coverage of how Feudal Technocracies<BR>
> >should use fighters to shoot down near C rocks navigated by<BR>
> >female Aslan in comfortable shoes.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Actually it should be "... our regular coverage of how Feudal Technocracies <BR>
should use fighters to shoot down near C rocks equiped with jump torpedos <BR>
and drop tanks and navigated by ethically challeged female Aslan merchants <BR>
in comfortable shoes."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I became involved with Traveller in the CT era--about 1980 I think, but I <BR>
>am a newcomer to the<BR>
>TML.  Could someone explain to me what this sentence means ?<BR>
><BR>
>"female Aslan in comfortable shoes", sounds like some sort of secret <BR>
>phrase exchanged by<BR>
>fanatical members of a secret society with the nefarious goal of <BR>
>simultaneously overthrowing<BR>
>all the governments in Charted Space and establishing a new unified <BR>
>utopian empire. :)<BR>
<BR>
That sentence covers almost every topic that the List can't agree on. We <BR>
can't even agree to dis-agree on some of them. :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:29:11 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Merciful puns<BR>
<BR>
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>
> Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
> > Oh no, we're not up for another Flood of these, are we? We did this back<BR>
> > in 1959, and maybe I Was Wrong to think that we could just Walk Away from<BR>
> > it.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > I mean really, it's like Mother Russia during the cold war; we're Under<BR>
> > The Gun, caught between A Rock And A Hard Place. Either we show our Dominion<BR>
> > of the subject by making More references, in such rapid succession that<BR>
> > there's No Time To Cry, or be Driven Like The Snow into submission before<BR>
> > the Jihad.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Alice, Marian, Lucretia, and Some Kind Of Stranger all agree with my<BR>
> > Logic. Gimme Shelter before the Damage is Done.<BR>
> <BR>
> >From the defending army's viewpoint:<BR>
> <BR>
> We are not about to let the army of the Jihad advance into our<BR>
> Heartland. Rest assured that no one of our soldiers will be Giving<BR>
> Ground to our enemy, at least not on my Watch. If we do have to retreat<BR>
> from an area, we will Torch everything of value, watching it Burn as we<BR>
> leave. We refuse to bow down and Kiss the Carpet before our enemy's<BR>
> feet!<BR>
<BR>
Ahahahahahaa!<BR>
<BR>
Okay, you beat me - even after I stole as many of them as I could, <BR>
you swept up the rest with more style than I could have managed.<BR>
<BR>
I surrender!<BR>
<BR>
Hey wait... don't you mean the army of the Jihad will Never Land (a <BR>
fragment) of their forces on your Heartland?<BR>
<BR>
- -RB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:14:03 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
On 06/15/00 at 05:23 PM,  Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>"Smith, Walter" wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
><<snip>><BR>
>> <BR>
>> ObTrav: Leave a population Zero world (say, six stranded human<BR>
>> explorers, three men and three women) alone for 500 years on an<BR>
>> uncharted garden world.  What will you find there when the planet is<BR>
>> rediscovered?<BR>
<BR>
>The wreckage of the Free Trader Minnow?<BR>
<BR>
>(Wait, that would involve _seven_ stranded castaways....)<BR>
<BR>
Six stranded humans and 1 token Vargr (that would be the ertzt-Gilligan <g>).<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:19:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Screening - was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2606<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 0:29 -0400 15/6/00,  Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com> wrote:<BR>
>>Some human cultures are already doing this. I just read the book _Genome_<BR>
>>by Matt Ridley. If I remember rightly, he relates that some Jewish sub-<BR>
>>ethnicities are screening for Tay-Sachs recessives in childhood, and there's<BR>
>>a hotline where you call and provide you and your fiancee's magic ID<BR>
>>numbers and they say "go" or "no go." (I may be misremembering details,<BR>
>>but that was the gist).<BR>
><BR>
> Shades of 'Gattaca'?<BR>
<BR>
This is *deliberately* arranged to avoid disclosing info to anyone who<BR>
doesn't *absolutely* need to know. The two people considering marriage<BR>
submit their code numbers and get the go/no-go. Nobody else will know.<BR>
So as long as they do the check *before* anyone else expects them to<BR>
startt planning for marriage, they can just "break up" and l;et people<BR>
assume the *relationship* didn't work out.<BR>
<BR>
I think you get a "no go" only if *both* of you have the recessive. So<BR>
that does tell you that the other person has the recessive. But since<BR>
the only way to have found that out is to have it yourself, that rather<BR>
makes it in your interest to *not* reveal that info to anyone. <BR>
<BR>
If you get a go, either *neither* of you have the gene or only one of<BR>
you does. No useful info there, other than the fact that if you marry,<BR>
your kids won;t have *active* Tay-Sachs. <BR>
<BR>
If they were trying to avoid marraiges where *either* partner had the<BR>
gene, it'd get a lot uglier. A no-go would mean that at least one of<BR>
you had the gene. On the other hand, if you kept getting no-go, and<BR>
your partners later *do* get a go, then it's definitely *you* with the<BR>
bad gene.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:31:03 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The operation is an extension of the frenulotomy used to correct<BR>
> 'tongue-tie' [the frenulum is the prominent attachment described by BZA<BR>
> in an earlier post]. Hopefully the surgeon doesn't overdo it so that you<BR>
> can swallow your tongue, or spit it out at someone when you recover from<BR>
> your anaesthetic.<BR>
<BR>
Well, that's what the tongue piercing is for. So you can attach the end<BR>
of your tongue to something along the lines of a boxer's mouthguard,<BR>
which will keep you from swallowing your tongue. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> Body modifications? Plenty of them described in the gaming and other<BR>
> literature. IMHO, a lot of them make very little sense as described,<BR>
> e.g. :-<BR>
> - having an auxiliary heart is useless when there's no blood to pump, or<BR>
> a critical artery or vein is divided ;<BR>
> - hypercoagulability is going to lead to extremity loss from embolism<BR>
> from incidental knocks before it's lifesaving in combat (most traumatic<BR>
> bleeding will require intervention, even if it's just the application of<BR>
> direct pressure) ;<BR>
<BR>
I'd go for partial decentralization of the circulatory system. Add more<BR>
valves to the larger veins and arteries, along with contractile<BR>
sheathing (we already have something like this, it'd just need<BR>
enhancing. And with a bit more work, the same sheathing (possibly in<BR>
combination with the valves) could be used to selectively shut down<BR>
parts of the circulatory system. Add in some redundant "loops" and<BR>
bypasses, and you could isolate the damaged areas, and even maintain<BR>
adequate circulation in case of damage to the heart. <BR>
<BR>
I doubt that you'd be able to get good enough circulation for strenous<BR>
activity with your heart gone, at least not without a substantial<BR>
penalty *somewhere* (probably from the *much* higher oxygen and glucose<BR>
needs of all that "muscle tissue" allong the vessels).<BR>
<BR>
But I'd settle for being able to sneak away after being left for dead. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Likewise, there's not much you can do about wounds to the torso, head<BR>
or neck. <BR>
<BR>
An interesting mod that came up in a discussion in private mail was<BR>
more intended for designing "genetically superior" humans. But it<BR>
*could* be done to a normal human as a "retrofit". <BR>
<BR>
Replace all or most of the digestive system with something designed for<BR>
highly digestible foods (say a solution of sugars, amino acids,<BR>
vitamins, etc). The extra space could be used to store a few pints of<BR>
spare blood, a small oxygen tank, or whatever.<BR>
<BR>
The disadvantages should be obvious. Inability to eat normal food. Or<BR>
at least to *digest* it. <BR>
<BR>
> - lung filters would have to be nanotech miracles to permit adequate gas<BR>
> exchange ;<BR>
<BR>
Improved lungs came up in the "superhuman" discussion. Concensus was<BR>
that while bird lungs are much more efficient at oxygen/CO2 exchange<BR>
they are also *far* more vulnerable to gaseous toxins (that's why<BR>
canaries in a mine keel over before humans are in danger) as well as<BR>
more susceptible to infection. <BR>
<BR>
One possible enhancement would be making the lungs a flow-thru system.<BR>
That would eliminate most of the problems from "dead space". It *would*<BR>
require redesigning the trachea and nasal passages to act as a<BR>
countercurrent exchanger for both heat and moisture (actually, it does<BR>
that already, but we want it to exchange them between *seperate*<BR>
channels). <BR>
<BR>
> The problem seems to be that modifications are considered in isolation,<BR>
> and 'knock-on' effects aren't well explored.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah...<BR>
<BR>
> I agree with Leonard that implants (feathers, fur, fins, other bits)<BR>
> will really take off once inflammation and tissue repair are figured<BR>
> out. The problems I see there are connecting nerve and blood supply, and <BR>
> training the brain to recognise and use the new part.<BR>
><BR>
> So the surgery/regen clinic is only the first bit. Is it possible to<BR>
> cram the required physical therapy into a convenient time frame (virtual<BR>
> reality? deep hypnopaedia?)<BR>
<BR>
Well, for some of them, you can probably learn to use them at your<BR>
leisure. You'll just need PT for the initial period where you are<BR>
trying to deal with your body's reactions to the new signals, and<BR>
vice-versa. <BR>
<BR>
Once that's over with and you have any sort of control at all, you can<BR>
just keep doing your assigned "exercises" in your free time. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:17:29 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Inbreeding<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Smith, Walter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> >>From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu> <BR>
> ><BR>
> >>ObTrav: Leave a population Zero world (say, six stranded <BR>
> >>human explorers, three men and three women) alone for 500 <BR>
> >>years on an uncharted garden world.  What will you find <BR>
> >>there when the planet is  rediscovered? <BR>
> ><BR>
> >Most probable finding:  beautiful garden world with five <BR>
> >graves and a skeleton. <BR>
> <BR>
> Pessimist. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
No, optimist.  He assumes the survivors will care enough to give the dead<BR>
decent burials.  That must mean there was a minimum of fighting.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:35:58 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Inbreeding<BR>
<BR>
Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Smith, Walter wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> > >>From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >>ObTrav: Leave a population Zero world (say, six stranded<BR>
> > >>human explorers, three men and three women) alone for 500<BR>
> > >>years on an uncharted garden world.  What will you find<BR>
> > >>there when the planet is  rediscovered?<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >Most probable finding:  beautiful garden world with five<BR>
> > >graves and a skeleton.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Pessimist. :-)<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> No, optimist.  He assumes the survivors will care enough to give the dead<BR>
> decent burials.  That must mean there was a minimum of fighting.<BR>
<BR>
fighting over what?<BR>
<BR>
If they are ship crew/PC's they should be savvy enough to find a way off the<BR>
planet...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:45:07 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> An interesting mod that came up in a discussion in private mail was<BR>
> more intended for designing "genetically superior" humans. But it<BR>
> *could* be done to a normal human as a "retrofit".<BR>
> <BR>
> Replace all or most of the digestive system with something designed for<BR>
> highly digestible foods (say a solution of sugars, amino acids,<BR>
> vitamins, etc). The extra space could be used to store a few pints of<BR>
> spare blood, a small oxygen tank, or whatever.<BR>
> <BR>
> The disadvantages should be obvious. Inability to eat normal food. Or<BR>
> at least to *digest* it.<BR>
<BR>
While I can see the utility of this mod in high-tech settings, I<BR>
disagree with the idea that this would be an improvement overall.  I<BR>
tend to agree with the Admiral's view, as expressed in _Beyond This<BR>
Horizon_, that the proper way to improve the breed is to improve the<BR>
capacity of individuals to survive difficult situations.  Note the<BR>
contrast in Heinlein's book between the super-specialized geentic<BR>
constructs under the Khans, which could not function outside their<BR>
niche, and the "star line" scion Hamilton Felix, who could excel in any<BR>
conceivable environment.<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:41:03<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
<BR>
At 10:53 AM 6/15/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>"female Aslan in comfortable shoes", sounds like some sort of secret phrase <BR>
>exchanged by fanatical members of a secret society with the nefarious goal <BR>
>of simultaneously overthrowing all the governments in Charted Space and <BR>
>establishing a new unified utopian empire. :)<BR>
<BR>
Awwww.. He guessed!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:42:43<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
<BR>
At 09:23 PM 6/15/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Female Aslan in comfortable shoes :  Long story... basically, since a<BR>
>majority of the Aslan population is female, it is theorized by several<BR>
>TMLers that many Aslan females are lesbians. "Woman in comfortable<BR>
>shoes" is a way of writing the word "lesbian" without using any dirty<BR>
>words.<BR>
<BR>
Actuaslly, most of us theorized that they were bisexual, with little or no<BR>
social problems stemming from that actvity.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,<BR>
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:46:55<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
At 12:04 PM 6/15/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
><BR>
>>If we were discussing "GURPS: DSM-IV" this style might <BR>
>>make a little sense.<BR>
><BR>
>"GURPS: DSM-IV":  I am so glad that I have stopped drinking<BR>
>while reading the TML.<BR>
<BR>
GURPS: Jesse and Doug Go To Oregon.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:17:34 -0500<BR>
From: "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
how do I get on that list?<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
To: traveller mailing aa list <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>; culture ac<BR>
traveller <traveller-culture@egroups.com><BR>
Date: Thursday, June 15, 2000 1:54 PM<BR>
Subject: re: Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:03:26 -0500<BR>
>>From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
><BR>
>>What role do women play in Vilani society?<BR>
><BR>
>That's a good question, and why aren't we discussing it on<BR>
>the Traveller Culture mailing list, which has lately been<BR>
>concerned with all things Vilani?<BR>
><BR>
>--Glenn<BR>
><BR>
>__________________________________________________<BR>
>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
>Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!<BR>
>http://photos.yahoo.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:46:27 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Inter and Intra Stellar Travel Coasting<BR>
<BR>
At 04:51 PM 6/15/00 -0500, Eris wrote:<BR>
>Minor campaign idea..<BR>
><BR>
>Take a small cluster, say a dozen systems, most connected by a J1<BR>
>main.  Given that some of the systems are going to binary or<BR>
>trinary, there might be 20 or more good target markets among them,<BR>
>and most could be serviced effeciently by J1 and J2 ships.  This<BR>
>whole thing would fit into half a sub-sector but would have enough<BR>
>size, scope and, with proper planning, variety for a long-running<BR>
>campaign.<BR>
><BR>
>Now, let's say the cluster is isolated from surrounding stars by a<BR>
>minor rift with a couple of J3 or J4's entry points.  This would<BR>
>mean that trade from/with the outside is focused through one or two<BR>
>systems.  These one or two systems could be also be the base of our<BR>
>campaigners who travelled and traded through the interior of the<BR>
>cluster competing with other small trade groups.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds a lot like the Islands subsectors in the Great Rift (although <BR>
isolated by J7+).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson                           nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
<BR>
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair.<BR>
Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair,<BR>
And all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually <BR>
deserve them?<BR>
So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the <BR>
universe.<BR>
                                      -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:52:35 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
<BR>
Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de> wrote<BR>
<BR>
>   I was talking about freight - not cargo - and my handwave was, that the<BR>
>   imperial credit is backed by the imperial subsidary freight capacity.<BR>
>   This mean that an 1kCr can buy freight space of 1dt for exactly one<BR>
>   parsec regardless on any imperial subsidary trader/liner. And anybody<BR>
>   can buy a high passage ticket for 10kCr per jump on those liners also.<BR>
<BR>
This may set a maximum price for jump or freight but I fail <BR>
to see how it sets a _minimum_ price. Unless you have a vast<BR>
network of Imperial government accountants constantly monitoring<BR>
every single business transaction that takes place it is<BR>
too easy to get provide a service at a lesser price. No<BR>
such Price Control Board exists in canon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:42:45 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave/Zhodani Exodus after 1200?<BR>
<BR>
At 12:29 AM 6/15/00 -0400, RvK wrote:<BR>
>Are there any web sites/books/supplements/magazines/etc (aside from the<BR>
>Regency Sourcebook and the GURPS Alien Races book) that have any significant<BR>
>information on topics like the Zhodani Core Expeditions, Longbow, the Empress<BR>
>Wave or related events, such as the Zhodani Exodus?  They're turning into<BR>
>major themes in my campiagn and i'm trying to dig up as much dirt on em as i<BR>
>can - the most important question I have  is whats happening to the areas<BR>
>where the Empress Wave has just passed by? (i read sometihng about it<BR>
>screwing with psions minds but can't find any other references)<BR>
>appreciate any help or suggestions, thanx<BR>
<BR>
Check out http://www.securityleak.net/ and go to issue 5.  It goes into <BR>
lots of detail about the Zho and their Core Expeditions.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:47:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: inbreeding (Not OT)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> ObTrav: Leave a population Zero world (say, six stranded human<BR>
>> explorers, three men and three women) alone for 500 years on an<BR>
>> uncharted garden world.  What will you find there when the planet is<BR>
>> rediscovered?<BR>
><BR>
> Poul Anderson wrote one novel "The Night Face" and one short <BR>
> story "The Sharing of the Flesh" with this as a premise.  They are <BR>
> both quite good, and the answer in both cases is a really odd minor <BR>
> human race.<BR>
<BR>
I don't recall "The Night Face" (Poul has written so many books, it's<BR>
not surprising if I haven't read all of them :-), but I *definetely<BR>
recall "The Sharing of the Flesh". <BR>
<BR>
An interesting thread in that story is just *how* badly a survey team<BR>
could screw over a planetary population under certain circumstances.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:51:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote: <BR>
><BR>
>>> Throw in cultures where dress requirements go everything from full<BR>
>>> strict Muslim female garb to nearly nothing to further confuse<BR>
>>> things.  In college I  saw female Muslim students from Malaysia<BR>
>>> wearing what amounted to a tailored sheet with small holes for eyes<BR>
>>> (with a thin veil across it) & long sleeves (the sheet also went<BR>
>>> nearly to the floor).  You could add in gloves for even more<BR>
>>> coverage.  OTOH, in some groups living in the Amazon jungle, men and<BR>
>>> women walk around wearing nothing but a belt (which men tie their<BR>
>>> foreskins to <shudder>).     <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Hey, it stretches. You think *that's* bad, consider a body mod from<BR>
>> somewhere around Malaysia. I won't describe it, but do a web search on<BR>
>> "ampallang". And then consider that it's done without anaesthesia by<BR>
>> the natives. <BR>
><BR>
> Yep, while that's even scarier, the worst is in (IIRC) pre-modern <BR>
> Thailand, where the local version of the ribbed condom involved bits <BR>
> of gravel, incisions, and no condom (used purely to enhance <BR>
> sensation).  That one *really* squicks me.<BR>
<BR>
From accounts I've read by people who've *done* this sort of thing,<BR>
sub-incision isn't any more painful than a tattoo. An ampallang on the<BR>
other hand (or the equivalent female piercing) is painful as hell!<BR>
<BR>
And then there's the Australian tribe that does a mod to honor a<BR>
reptile god. They split the head (or even *all*) of the penis<BR>
lengthwise... There's a photo of someone who's done this in "Modern<BR>
Primitives". You can *always* tell when someone flipping thru it<BR>
stumbles across *that* picture...<BR>
<BR>
OBTrav: You need to be "adopted" into a tribe to get a trading deal for<BR>
the gems/furs/whatever. Then you tell the players what the adoption<BR>
ceremony involves... <eg><BR>
<BR>
>> Have you heard about the studies that traced some childrens games and<BR>
>> ryhmes back several *centuries*. All transmitted from child to child.<BR>
>> At least, they are the sort of things adults are unlikely to have<BR>
>> bothered teaching the kids.<BR>
><BR>
> Yep, some of the nursery rhymes are at least 700 years old and <BR>
> could easily be 1,000s of years old.  The recently found a fully <BR>
> intact Middle Kingdom Egyptian flute, and did elaborate tests to <BR>
> discover what scale the flute used, it was the same one we do.  <BR>
> Tunes like "Mary had a little lamb" could be thousands of years <BR>
> old, and (with different words) would likely still be around <BR>
> somewhere in the Imperium.  <BR>
<BR>
I also like the case where a childrens ditty from the US was widespread<BR>
in Australia in only a few *months*. It was a mangling of the theme to<BR>
Davy Crockett, which hadn't even reached Australia yet. They were able<BR>
to trace it to a kid who's father had been transferred to Australia. <BR>
  <BR>
>> Children have a culture of their own, and I sometimes think it's not<BR>
>> *nearly* as affected by adult rules as we'd like to think. I'm not as<BR>
>> certain as I could be, since I was something of an "outsider" to that<BR>
>> culture when I was a kid.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Hmm. Now *there* is an interesting thought.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> A planet where there really *are* several cultures. Divided by *age*.<BR>
>> Say, around age 4 the child leaves his or her mother, and is initiated<BR>
>> into the "childrens" culture. And failure to be acepted could have<BR>
>> severe consequences. <BR>
><BR>
> Take a look at some of the East African cultures (IIRC in Nigeria or <BR>
> Kenya) with age-grades bands.  The British guy who created the <BR>
> boy-scouts (loosely) based their structure on this culture.  Young <BR>
> men have separate societies separated into various age groups.  <BR>
> Expanding on this for a larger, high-tech culture could be way cool! <BR>
><BR>
>> Heck, with the right circumstances, I can even see the different<BR>
>> cultures winding up nearly *seperate* and interacting as little as<BR>
>> possible. That could even included schooling and training. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> It might seem odd to us, but I can see older "children" teaching the<BR>
>> younger ones all the stuff that is currently taught in school. And<BR>
>> possibly doing a better job!<BR>
><BR>
> Definitely, between computer databases and older kids teaching <BR>
> younger kids, it could work quite well.<BR>
>  <BR>
>> There'd have to be places/times when mixig was ok, like hospitals. <BR>
><BR>
> Separate wards, use automeds for minor illnesses, doctors, nurses <BR>
> and others who cross age grades to treat or work with people <BR>
> would have a special status and would likely be regarded as odd, <BR>
> sacred, or otherwise outside the normal social structure. <BR>
><BR>
>> And<BR>
>> I'm not at all sure how the economics would work (maybe it grew out of<BR>
>> a setup where automated factories provide the basic necessities for<BR>
>> "free"?) <BR>
><BR>
> Perhaps, alternatives include<BR>
><BR>
> Special cross-grade merchants, or maybe certain age grades <BR>
> provide certain resources for other grades, perhaps merely by <BR>
> bringing them to a certain locations, where the other groups pick <BR>
> them up w/o direct contact. <BR>
<BR>
Kids would be great at work that involved little strength, medium to<BR>
good dexterity, and the ability to reach into (or *fit* into) small<BR>
spaces. <BR>
<BR>
"Teens" would be likely to supply "warriors" (as opposed to soldiers.<BR>
Warroirs tend to be long on bravery, so so on discipline, and rather<BR>
short on strategy).<BR>
<BR>
Also, another factor in the seperation would be that the areas each<BR>
group lives in will tend to be scaled for them. An adult couldn't even<BR>
*fit* into a kid building. And would be damned uncomfortable in a teen<BR>
building. <BR>
<BR>
Kids would be really uncomfortable in an adult dwelling (doorknobs too<BR>
high, furniture too big, stair treads too wide/tall). Teen structures<BR>
would only be moderately uncomfortable in kid or adult structures. <BR>
<BR>
> Much fun-<BR>
<BR>
Yep!<BR>
<BR>
And all from exaggerating the "generation gap". :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2616<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2617</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 16 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2617<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: body mods<BR>
Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
RE: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Re: GURPS character design<BR>
Re: No Longer GURPS Character Design<BR>
Re: <BR>
Traveller Deckplans Design #2<BR>
Re: keyboard kill<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2613<BR>
Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
Re: Vilani Women<BR>
Burrito Files<BR>
Re: keyboard kill<BR>
Re: Merciful puns<BR>
Monkey see, Monkey do<BR>
Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
Re: HELP! Tracking ship movements in a system<BR>
Re: system data format<BR>
Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:10:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: body mods<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/14/00 11:28 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> At 05:08 PM 6/14/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>>> Heck, I just remembered a real world mod that (I'm told) is fairly<BR>
>>>> simple. Remember KISS? One of them (Gene Simmons?) is rumored to have<BR>
>>>> had an operation that allowed him to stick his toungue out so far.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> My cousin used to date him.  That's *all* Gene.  It's odd, in person he's<BR>
>>> this really relaxed, mellow guy.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> As I understand it, the operation just "cuts" some "attachment points".<BR>
>> No stretching or the like. It's just free to come farther out of the<BR>
>> mouth. <BR>
>  <BR>
> Another mod becoming popular is 'tongue splitting'.  Just like it sound.<BR>
> For all you reptile wannabes.<BR>
<BR>
For *real* reptile wannabees, check my comment in another post<BR>
regarding an Australian tribe...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:12:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/14/00 9:30 PM, Rob Eaglestone at downport@home.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> red@europa.com wrote:<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Then again, the GM wasn't anywhere near as good<BR>
>>> as our current one, the Evil Tod.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Red<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Oh yeah baby, I've seen his website.  I've read<BR>
>> the logs.  He's a sneaky one, that's for sure.<BR>
>> Where are you guys again?  Maybe I can get a<BR>
>> transfer...<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Rob<BR>
>> <BR>
> Portland, OR. And the Evil Tod occasionally welcomes fresh meat, I mean new<BR>
> players.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe after I get my license, and a vehicle. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:21:08 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
>Hmm, random examples:<BR>
><BR>
>A culture in Africa where every misfortune and illness is believed to<BR>
>be caused by some form of human-created black magic or ill-<BR>
>wishing.  Find the culprit in time and you can often make the bad<BR>
>thing stop (not a nice place to live).<BR>
<BR>
There are several societies like this in Sub-Saharan Africa. However, this<BR>
particular arrangement is very well known among folklorists and appears over<BR>
and over again all over the world. Interestingly enough, in some cases being<BR>
cursed may be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Among some Australian aborigines,<BR>
material support will be withdrawn from a victim of witchcraft. Needless to<BR>
say, the poor cursed person frequently dies of dehydration.<BR>
<BR>
Jumpspace fun: One member of a group of travellers on the PC's ship falls<BR>
ill. Despite the valiant attempts of the ship's doctor to explain that it's<BR>
not really hazardous, the other members of of the traveller's party insist<BR>
on finding out which witch cursed the poor guy. The situation is further<BR>
complicated by the refusal of the sick man to eat or drink ("It's okay, I'm<BR>
a goner anyway!").<BR>
<BR>
>Recent Sythian archeology revealed that the Amazon legends were<BR>
>in part true.  In one large settlement there was a separate<BR>
>cemetery for women who were buried with full warrior goods and<BR>
>honors who seem to often have died by violence.  These women do<BR>
>not seem to have lived apart from the rest of the group, but they<BR>
>were warriors.  Many were teenagers, one supposition is that they<BR>
>used teenage girls as shock troops.  Data on this find is quite new,<BR>
>so there will likely be much more data to follow.<BR>
<BR>
Have they found another group?<BR>
<BR>
The last big find I remember was about two years ago or so, they found five<BR>
kurgans containing warrior-women mixed in with about twenty kurgans. They've<BR>
been finding isolated warrior-women, priestesses and (possibly) bards or<BR>
storytellers here and there in the general region since about the mid-1990s.<BR>
Attempts at dating some of them put them at about the 5th century BC(E).<BR>
That's just around the time of Herodotus who wrote extensively on the<BR>
amazons. I love it when the father of history turns out to be right. Makes<BR>
me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :)<BR>
<BR>
>Add in the fact that even the middle class lived with multiple people<BR>
>to a room and you have a very different society from the US, where<BR>
>socially defined  privacy replaces actual privacy.  I would expect<BR>
>cultures to be similar on many of the pop A high tech worlds of the<BR>
>Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
The middle class lived with multiple people to a room? How about a culture<BR>
where the middle class lives with a dead grandma? Among the Torajans of<BR>
Sulawesi that's precisely what happens. After grandma dies, they wrap her in<BR>
heavy absorbent materials until she ceases to be offensive. Eventually, she<BR>
becomes a table or a shelf and after a number of years she is removed. While<BR>
she is in the house she is not referred to as being dead, she is "sleeping"<BR>
or "has a headache".<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: It is certainly somewhat unsanitary, but something like this might<BR>
provide interesting color for player characters visiting a starship (or<BR>
hired on to a starship).<BR>
<BR>
"What's that pile of blankets other there?"<BR>
"Dad, he passed the ship down to me before taking his nap."<BR>
"Oh..."<BR>
"Well, don't be shy, aren't you going to say hello to him?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:29:20 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS character design<BR>
<BR>
Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter, when a role playing game ruleset inadvertantly leaves out the <BR>
> paragraph, found in almost every RPG out there, to the effect that <BR>
> "common sense and the GM's judgement take precedence over all the <BR>
> written rules", you insist that this was an intentional departure <BR>
> and that the rules are set in stone[2].<BR>
<BR>
> [2] TML discussion a month or two ago. I say inadvertant because (IIRC)<BR>
> all editions of Traveller other than Megatraveller seem to have this <BR>
> meta-rule included, and I don't believe that the meta-rule-system was <BR>
> intended to be different in MT. <BR>
<BR>
I recanted said point entirely and apologized to those I<BR>
disagreed with when, after rereading the designers notes to<BR>
MT, I discovered statements by Joe Fugate that urged the<BR>
use of 'common sense'. If I wanted to be truly pedantic about<BR>
the whole matter I would have argued that since the MT<BR>
designers notes were published by DGP they are of lesser<BR>
canonicity than the MT rules themselves which were published<BR>
by GDW and that therefore all clarifications and advice in<BR>
the MT Designers notes can not trump the letter of the GDW<BR>
text. Since, contrary to the impression many of you have,<BR>
am not totally AR about rules I accepted the MT designers<BR>
notes as canonical.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:30:02 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: No Longer GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
>  you wrote:<BR>
> >Some poorly written games fail to establish this fact.<BR>
> >For some unknown reason they make the foolish assumption<BR>
> >that the GM and/or the players would realize that most<BR>
> >charecters need to eat and breathe.<BR>
<BR>
> Yet you have made it clear that in your view, the rules are paramount.  So<BR>
> since Classic Traveller had no rules for how long it takes to suffocate in<BR>
> the vacuum of space, characters don't need to worry about it.<BR>
<BR>
While CT does not specify the time required for suffocation<BR>
in a vacuum it does imply that this will occur. The equipment <BR>
lists include Vacc Suits which are "worn in vacuum, trace,<BR>
exotic, or corrosive atmospheres (types 0, 1, and A+). Can be <BR>
worn in any atmosphere for protection against local contamination<BR>
or insufficiency." The Traveller Book p. 107. (see also Oxygen<BR>
Tanks op cit) IIRC CT also establishes that space is a vacuum <BR>
but I can't readily cite a source for that. Moreover as I prefer <BR>
MT to CT anyway the question is moot.<BR>
<BR>
> Of course with a little common sense from the GM and players, this is not a<BR>
> problem.  But you have steadfastly refused to apply common sense in these<BR>
> arguments, <BR>
<BR>
To me my notions are 'common sense'. I understand that you disagree.<BR>
Moreover GURPS rules do not establish that players should use<BR>
'common sense' they only instruct that GM's should do so. While <BR>
GURPS instructs  _GM's_ to use common sense "When any rule gives <BR>
a silly result, follow common sense, instead." (GURPS Basic Set <BR>
3rd Ed Rev p 179) this sentance is specifically aimed at the GM <BR>
not at the players. Hence I do not believe that it applies to<BR>
the players. Obviously Your Milage Does Vary.<BR>
<BR>
> even to the point of not accepting the word of the GURPS Line<BR>
> Editor on a GURPS rule question!<BR>
<BR>
I accept that his word goes, I just think that it is wrong.<BR>
Just as many Americans are free to disagree with rulings made<BR>
by the US Supreme Court so should gamers be free to disagree<BR>
(except in tournament games) with rulings made by the game<BR>
company. YMMV<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:35:53 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: <BR>
<BR>
"Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I assume that a character with, say a "Lightning calculator" advantage<BR>
> would be more or less obsessive about counting and calculating in your<BR>
> games. Is this the case?<BR>
<BR>
Not necessarily. I'd say that characters with Lightning<BR>
Calculator are more likely to exhibit this sort of behavior<BR>
but (in GURPS terms) this would be better modeled as<BR>
Odious Personal Habit: Counts everything or Major Delusion:<BR>
Numerology rather than as Obsession which (in GURPS) requires<BR>
a goal.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:57:09 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph Kimball" <jekimball@prodigy.net><BR>
Subject: Traveller Deckplans Design #2<BR>
<BR>
Greetings Fellow Travellers,<BR>
<BR>
Submissions are now complete for the first Traveller Deckplans Design <BR>
Contest. We have a small field of four entrants submitting a total of <BR>
five designs in deckplan and rendering categories. I am very pleased <BR>
with the quality of the work and think you will be, too.<BR>
<BR>
Let me invite everyone to come to the contest page at <BR>
http://members.home.net/spacecraft/TDDC/contest01.htm and vote for <BR>
their favourites. Voting continues until midnight this Friday (PDT).<BR>
<BR>
TDDC#2 will be starting in about a week. Watch the ongoing contest <BR>
page at http://members.home.net/spacecraft/TDDC/ongoing.htm Join in <BR>
the fun! Let's add some quantity to our quality.<BR>
<BR>
Thank you for your attention.<BR>
     Gordon Horne, Host, Traveller Deckplans Design Contest<BR>
     spacecraft@home.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:53:36 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: keyboard kill<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
"Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >>Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote<BR>
> >>> You bettah be nice to me, I coulda been Empress!<BR>
<BR>
> >From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> >>[in my best Yoda voice]<BR>
> >>"You will be, my young one. Heh. You will be."<BR>
> >> if you are severely injured next year they<BR>
> >>will put you in a low berth. When we get to TL 12 you<BR>
> >>will be unfrozen. After you are drafted and<BR>
> >>become Hiroshi's aide de camp you will fall in love, marry,<BR>
> >>and become Empress. <BR>
<BR>
> >Overheard in the shadows:<BR>
> >"If you want to get rid of Estigarribia, you're going to have to get rid of<BR>
> >his antique frill.  That woman is mad, but she always seems to know what<BR>
> >we're up to, dammit!"<BR>
> >"I think she's a witch.  She's always invoking the power of some being named<BR>
> >Kannon.  Isn't that some ancient Japanese mythological figure?"<BR>
> >"I don't know, but we're never going to get anywhere if we don't get our<BR>
> >hands on her sacred Black Books."<BR>
<BR>
> Some people should not be allowed to play together, even in<BR>
> cyberspace.<BR>
<BR>
Given that many others on the TML would give me a 'Needs<BR>
Improvement' grade in 'Plays well with others' this does<BR>
not seem like a bad thing.<BR>
<BR>
> On the other side of that problem, we have people like Kiri,<BR>
> Peter, Bloo, CmdrX, Black Ice, Kenji, and the rest of the TML,<BR>
> who, while individually and collectively a danger to keyboards<BR>
> everywhere, should be incorriged [sic].  Frequently.<BR>
<BR>
Some of those other names sound like they might make a<BR>
good Japanese Rock Group.<BR>
<BR>
"Lets give it up for Kiri and the Listies. We've got<BR>
Commander X on the Guitar (Commander X does a guitar<BR>
rift using all 3 cords he knows), Black Ice on the<BR>
base (Ice bows and makes an R rated gesture with his<BR>
electric base). Bloo on the keyboards (Bloo taps a single<BR>
key and an over sampled cord pirated from "Wipeout" goes<BR>
through the room), Kenji on weasel powered guitar (Kenji<BR>
puts two fresh weasels into his guitar and tosses the tired<BR>
out weasels into the audience) and our lead singer is<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan." (the audience goes wild screaming<BR>
"Kiri, Kiri, Kiri" as Kiri enters from stage left, on the<BR>
video screen behind the stage an image of Hindu Kali cultists<BR>
chanting "Kali, Kali, Kali" in perfect time to the audience <BR>
chant or "Kiri, Kiri, Kiri.")<BR>
<BR>
Kiri: ""Thank you, thank youverymuch."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:54:59 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2613<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 15-06-00 4:05:06 PM CST, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>   Even today in a hastily-dug foxhole, the manuals say the floor should <BR>
slope<BR>
>  into a deep, narrow hole called a "grenade sump".  A hand grenade tossed<BR>
>  into the position can often be kicked into the hole where the ground <BR>
absorbs<BR>
>  the fragments.  (though I would love to hear a veteran describe what the<BR>
>  blast is like - I doubt it would be pleasant, but far preferable to ending<BR>
>  up with a groin full of shrapnel.)<BR>
<BR>
A school-mate of mine was killed in Vietnam kicking a grenade into a sump. <BR>
Saved the lives of the other two guys in the foxhole . . . they gave his <BR>
mother his silver star and re-named the local VFW post after him.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:00:40 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Character Design<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:46:55, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>GURPS: Jesse and Doug Go To Oregon.<BR>
>- --<BR>
><BR>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
In a modular cutter!<BR>
<BR>
So what are the chances that the next time this happens, you might make a <BR>
side trip down I-5 to Eugene?  Having no car, it doesn't work very well the <BR>
other way around. :(<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:16:10 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > James Pearson wrote:<BR>
> > > What role do women play in Vilani society?<BR>
<BR>
> Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>
> > IMTU, the same role as the men.<BR>
> > A civilization evolving in such an unforgiving place as Vland could<BR>
> > probably not afford not to have all its members trained for as many<BR>
> > situations as possible. <BR>
<BR>
The Vilani have a caste system. [1] Occupations secrets are <BR>
tightly guarded. The Shugili's keep their secret quite well.<BR>
<BR>
> > If we need to gather food, everyone gathers<BR>
> > food. If we need to hunt, everyone hunts. If we need to file five copies<BR>
> > of Form 18B12, everyone files five copies of Form 18B12.<BR>
<BR>
What about the caste boundaries? Gathering-1 [2], Hunting-1,<BR>
and Admin-1 will be less common outside the appropriate<BR>
castes<BR>
<BR>
> But it makes just as much sense to heavily specialize, so that those <BR>
> performing each job are as efficient at it as possible.<BR>
<BR>
It's not necessarily a question of efficiency. It is a<BR>
question of rent seeking behavior by a monopoly. If anyone<BR>
could prepare their own food than the shugilis would not<BR>
be able to sell it at such a high price and have such a<BR>
high social status.<BR>
<BR>
[1] Much like the Droyne did and canon indicates that Ancient<BR>
War machines survived on Vland for most of Vilani prehistory.<BR>
Perhaps an Ancient war bot with a faulty circuit decided that<BR>
the Vilani were Droyne and cast the Coyns for them to<BR>
caste them. After sufficient use of the disintegrator the<BR>
paleolithic Vilani were casted. Later this stuck because it<BR>
was 'tradition'.<BR>
<BR>
[2] Not a canonical skill. Gathering is probably Agronomy/TL 0,<BR>
or Survival in Traveller terms.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:44:20 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Burrito Files<BR>
<BR>
Rob, I was perusing your 'burrito files' on downport and thought I could<BR>
contribute a bunch of material.  Also, I have a wonderful little program<BR>
called faces (for doing crime suspect composites) that I use for player/NPC<BR>
pictures.  There are several examples on travellercentral.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, what is you locale, anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:27:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: keyboard kill<BR>
<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>"Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>>>> You bettah be nice to me, I coulda been Empress!<BR>
<BR>
>>>>[in my best Yoda voice]  "You will be, my young one. Heh. You will be."<BR>
>>>> if you are severely injured next year they will put you in a low berth.<BR>
When we get to TL 12 you will be unfrozen. After you are drafted and become<BR>
Hiroshi's aide de camp you will fall in love, marry, and become Empress.<BR>
<BR>
>>>Overheard in the shadows:<BR>
>>> "If you want to get rid of Estigarribia, you're going to have to get rid<BR>
of his antique frill.  That woman is mad, but she always seems to know what<BR>
we're up to, dammit!"<BR>
>>>"I think she's a witch.  She's always invoking the power of some being<BR>
named Kannon.  Isn't that some ancient Japanese mythological figure?"<BR>
>>>"I don't know, but we're never going to get anywhere if we don't get our<BR>
hands on her sacred Black Books."<BR>
<BR>
>> Some people should not be allowed to play together, even in cyberspace.<BR>
><BR>
>Given that many others on the TML would give me a 'Needs Improvement' grade<BR>
in 'Plays well with others' this does not seem like a bad thing.<BR>
><BR>
>> On the other side of that problem, we have people like Kiri, Peter, Bloo,<BR>
CmdrX, Black Ice, Kenji, and the rest of the TML, who, while individually<BR>
and collectively a danger to keyboards everywhere, should be incorriged<BR>
[sic].  Frequently.<BR>
<BR>
>Some of those other names sound like they might make a good Japanese Rock<BR>
Group.<BR>
><BR>
LOL!!!  I listen to almost nothing but Japanese rock and pop when I'm left<BR>
to my own devices, though I do like some American and British artists as<BR>
well.  These names are not nearly weird enough to compete with the Spoozys,<BR>
Lolita 18, Boy-Knife (bettah known as Shounen Knife), Thee Michelle Gun<BR>
Elephant, Mr. Children, and a number of other acts.  (Not my favorite acts<BR>
just a sampling of typical band names... though I've a soft spot for the<BR>
Spoozys as I have seriously flirted with a member of that band.)<BR>
<BR>
>"Lets give it up for Kiri and the Listies. We've got Commander X on the<BR>
Guitar (Commander X does a guitar rift using all 3 cords he knows), Black<BR>
Ice on the base (Ice bows and makes an R rated gesture with his electric<BR>
base). Bloo on the keyboards (Bloo taps a single key and an over sampled<BR>
cord pirated from "Wipeout" goes through the room), Kenji on weasel powered<BR>
guitar (Kenji puts two fresh weasels into his guitar and tosses the tired<BR>
out weasels into the audience) and our lead singer is Kiri Aradia Morgan."<BR>
(the audience goes wild screaming "Kiri, Kiri, Kiri" as Kiri enters from<BR>
stage left, on the video screen behind the stage an image of Hindu Kali<BR>
cultists chanting "Kali, Kali, Kali" in perfect time to the audience chant<BR>
or "Kiri, Kiri, Kiri.")<BR>
><BR>
Not bad.  Kirsten, if we do that next time we play karaoke, do you think<BR>
they'll get our names right?<BR>
<BR>
I used to be the front for an atrocious band when I was in college.  I have<BR>
a good voice and quite a bit of stage presence and might be a rock star<BR>
today if I could have found people to play with that actually liked music<BR>
BETTER than drugs.  I have too much fun playing karaoke!<BR>
<BR>
>Kiri: "Thank you, thank you very much."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hey everyone, is the TML ready to ROCK?<BR>
<BR>
Good, let's party down!!!<BR>
<BR>
This one's for Hiroshi... whenever you are this time, you beautiful<BR>
bastard...<BR>
<BR>
(insert concert footage here)<BR>
<BR>
Now calm down everybody.<BR>
<BR>
The Empress has left the building.   That's right, the Empress has now left<BR>
the building...<BR>
<BR>
("...I told you that woman was nuts.  Is this really what she did before<BR>
they put her to sleep?  We should have left her where she was."<BR>
<BR>
"But Estigarribia likes her..."<BR>
<BR>
"Yeah, and they took the place over dammit!!!  And why did he suddenly take<BR>
to dyeing his hair funny colors?")<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:37:02 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Merciful puns<BR>
<BR>
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: The Rebellion. Why did it Happen?<BR>
...<BR>
> From the administrator's view point:<BR>
><BR>
>"We got the kingdom, we got the key,<BR>
>We got the empire, now as then,<BR>
>We don't doubt, we don't take direction"<BR>
><BR>
>which leads to... 'I hear empire down'. ;-)<BR>
...<BR>
>Dom (musically outed)<BR>
<BR>
  This is better than pinging - and who says you can't localize <BR>
targets with passive sensors?<BR>
<BR>
 <ahem> "There are to be no survivors - prepare the Brian Adams' .wav's"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 03:20:18 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Monkey see, Monkey do<BR>
<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I seem to remember from somewhere that for chimp this isn't actually<BR>
> true - females tend to move to other troops, often several times<BR>
> before they settle down.<BR>
<BR>
 While for Olive Baboons it is the males who move around a lot (I found a <BR>
good article on this in a 13-year old issue of National Geographic). Oddly, <BR>
the males who settle in one clan, make friends (a STRONG part of Olive Baboon <BR>
clan structure) and learn to be *subtle* have greater breeding success than <BR>
the traveling hotheads...<BR>
<BR>
 Fascinating stuff.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Yet another form of "Sci-babble" to either hook your players into <BR>
watching the local wildlife along with the scientist NPC, or getting them to <BR>
ignore him completely (muahahaha).<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:30:40 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 10:53 AM 6/15/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >"female Aslan in comfortable shoes", sounds like some sort of secret phrase<BR>
> >exchanged by fanatical members of a secret society with the nefarious goal<BR>
> >of simultaneously overthrowing all the governments in Charted Space and<BR>
> >establishing a new unified utopian empire. :)<BR>
><BR>
> Awwww.. He guessed!<BR>
<BR>
Cardinal Biggles..... Bring in The COMFY Chair....<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
When Spring comes back with rustling shade,<BR>
And apple blossoms fills the air,<BR>
I have a rendezvous with Death,<BR>
When spring brings back blue days and fair.<BR>
 Legionnaire Alan Seeger, KIA the Somme.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:15:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: HELP! Tracking ship movements in a system<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Hi David.  <BR>
><BR>
> Not sure this is what you're looking for, but you can do this sort of<BR>
> thing on a hex-map, although it's a bit grainy.  Have each hex be 10 Mkm<BR>
> and each turn about 8 hours (31623 s is the exact figure, close enough to<BR>
> 28800 s for my purposes).  At this scale, 1 g for 1 turn produces 1<BR>
> hex/turn of vector.  Use a standard "future position marker system" like<BR>
> the one in G:T (IIRC) and you're good to go.  No calculator needed.  <BR>
<BR>
At this scale, Earth moves about 1/12 of a hex a turn. inner planets<BR>
move faster, outer planets move slower.<BR>
<BR>
> A few sheets of hex paper can be used to map out an inner system (about 30<BR>
> hexes from Sol to Mars, IIRC) or the relationship between 2 or 3 outer<BR>
> system planets.  Get a black hex map and some marbles for planets and it<BR>
> has good visual appeal too... <BR>
><BR>
> If you need a bigger scale, 20 Mkm hexes yeild very close to 12 hour<BR>
> turns (44721 s, where 12*3600 = 43200).<BR>
<BR>
Which gives Earth a movement rate of 1/16 hex/turn.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:30:09 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: system data format<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> What exactly *is* the current "standard" format for system data files?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> And which of the following is *not* included?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> (the following are required for a *2-d* system)<BR>
><BR>
> You need all that data only if you're designing a simulation.<BR>
> If you're designing a game, then you can abstract it quite a <BR>
> bit.<BR>
<BR>
Not as much as you might think. You still need the orbital radius, a<BR>
line of reference to measure the orbit positions from, and the position<BR>
of each planet with respect to that line at some point in time. Along<BR>
with similar info for each satellite. Oh yeah, you need the mass info<BR>
too. <BR>
<BR>
And that's assuming the orbits are circular. Since Traveller has<BR>
elliptical orbits, it gets messier. <BR>
<BR>
More to the point, other than going *completely* abstract, I have no<BR>
real choice *except* to get as complicated as I showed, because those<BR>
are the values the formulas available require. I'm not *about* to try<BR>
deriving them on my own. Even in simplified form.<BR>
<BR>
It's pretty abstract already since the formulas assume that the object<BR>
and its primary are alone in the universe. I can leave out all the<BR>
corrections. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:54:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
>> <BR>
>> An interesting mod that came up in a discussion in private mail was<BR>
>> more intended for designing "genetically superior" humans. But it<BR>
>> *could* be done to a normal human as a "retrofit".<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Replace all or most of the digestive system with something designed for<BR>
>> highly digestible foods (say a solution of sugars, amino acids,<BR>
>> vitamins, etc). The extra space could be used to store a few pints of<BR>
>> spare blood, a small oxygen tank, or whatever.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> The disadvantages should be obvious. Inability to eat normal food. Or<BR>
>> at least to *digest* it.<BR>
><BR>
> While I can see the utility of this mod in high-tech settings, I<BR>
> disagree with the idea that this would be an improvement overall.<BR>
<BR>
*I* never said it was an improvement. Just that it came up while<BR>
discussing "supermen". :-)<BR>
<BR>
> I<BR>
> tend to agree with the Admiral's view, as expressed in _Beyond This<BR>
> Horizon_, that the proper way to improve the breed is to improve the<BR>
> capacity of individuals to survive difficult situations.<BR>
<BR>
Me too. Even if I'd be one of the early casualties if things fell apart.<BR>
<BR>
I pointed out that the only way to make this sort of thing *viable*<BR>
would be if the person could generate some pretty potent enzymes<BR>
(which, btw, would make damn good venoms!) and use them, along with a<BR>
"container" to predigest food *outside* the body.<BR>
<BR>
I figured that was acceptable, because at worst, you make a clay pot,<BR>
or use a hollow in a rock. If neither of those can be done, you are<BR>
likely toast anyway. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2617<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2618</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 16 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2618<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re : Travel times (was interstellar travel costs)<BR>
Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
Re: Inbreeding<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2604<BR>
Re: Merciful puns<BR>
Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
Re: Burrito Files<BR>
Re: keyboard kill<BR>
RE: Burrito Files<BR>
RE: gender differences/social structure<BR>
RE: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
Re: keyboard kill<BR>
Re: keyboard kill<BR>
Re: Burrito Files<BR>
Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
Help with Traveller colony<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:58:38 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Travel times (was interstellar travel costs)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
> I suppose someone ought to sit down and figure what sort of gas/dust<BR>
> densities are reasonable for various parts of various kinds of system,<BR>
> and what the max safe speed is for those densities.<BR>
<BR>
Solar wind : 10^6 to 10^9 particles per cubic metre, with temperatures<BR>
up to 10^5 K.<BR>
<BR>
This is a thousand to a million times more rarefied than the hardest lab<BR>
vacuums available, but about as 'hot' as the neon in a lit sign. I don't<BR>
have any info to hand about dust densities, but a milligram per cubic km<BR>
seems a reasonable ballpark figure.<BR>
<BR>
Off the cuff, the probability of significant collisions seems low until<BR>
you consider some velocities (see below).<BR>
<BR>
> This would actually be kinda nice, because it'll remove most of the<BR>
> silliness that thruster plates with their "accelerate forever" ability<BR>
> introduced.<BR>
There was a note in FF&S2 which essentially stated that thruster<BR>
performance fell off to 1% of nominal at 10^5 stellar diameters.<BR>
<BR>
If we make it 10^3 stellar diameters, that would be about 20 AU for<BR>
the sun. Assuming the usual constant boost to midpoint and turnaround,<BR>
and acceleration of 6G (60ms^(-2)), this gives us a velocity at midpoint<BR>
of :-<BR>
<BR>
v= sqrt(2as), where s=1.5 X 10^12m<BR>
v ~= 13416408ms^(-1), or 4.4% of c.<BR>
<BR>
Let's call it 4%.<BR>
<BR>
- --------------------------------------<BR>
Invoking the near-c rocks debate :-<BR>
I propose this as a speed limit for thruster-propelled anything ; space<BR>
doesn't provide enough 'traction' for the vehicle to go any quicker.<BR>
- --------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Using Leonard's numbers from his earlier post, 1mg at 4% of c is<BR>
energetically equivalent to 35 tonnes TNT.<BR>
<BR>
But given 1mg per cubic kilometre, a ship will encounter a small<BR>
fraction of this (a 100m diameter vessel will sweep out 2500 X pi X 1000<BR>
cubic metres or about 0.8% of a cubic kilometre of space).<BR>
<BR>
This reduces the burden to 280kg of TNT per km travelled, distributed<BR>
across the frontal area of the ship (~7800m^2 in this case). Having a<BR>
minimum AV of 20 (1cm of superdense?) seems to be a very sensible idea<BR>
in light of this.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:27:19 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
> Add in some redundant "loops" and<BR>
> bypasses, and you could isolate the damaged areas, and even maintain<BR>
> adequate circulation in case of damage to the heart.<BR>
I'll pay shunting off of damaged areas. Damage to the heart is a little<BR>
harder to compensate for (cardiogenic shock, or even a middling infarct,<BR>
is *bad* news acutely).<BR>
<BR>
> I doubt that you'd be able to get good enough circulation for strenous<BR>
> activity with your heart gone,<BR>
<BR>
You're assuming that the enhanced circulatory system is capable of<BR>
vasomotion (rhythmic contractions seen in reptiles and amphibian<BR>
circulation). <BR>
<BR>
At best this would be equivalent to CPR - 10 to 20% of baseline cardiac<BR>
output, enough to defer the onset of overwhelming hypoxic brain damage.<BR>
Otherwise you will run into more problems with oxygen and glucose<BR>
supply, as well as hyperlactataemia.<BR>
<BR>
You're going to have a hard time staying alive. 'Sneaking away after<BR>
being left for dead' is right out.<BR>
<BR>
> An interesting mod that came up in a discussion in private mail was<BR>
> more intended for designing "genetically superior" humans. But it<BR>
> *could* be done to a normal human as a "retrofit". <BR>
<BR>
I'm on rec.arts.sf.science in lurker mode ; it's one of the better<BR>
USENET groups with regard to signal:noise, most of the time. Sounds like<BR>
the recent "O Superman" thread.<BR>
<BR>
Having a bunch of engineers and IT types talk physiology and biology is<BR>
downright amusing, sometimes.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Replace all or most of the digestive system with something designed for<BR>
> highly digestible foods (say a solution of sugars, amino acids,<BR>
> vitamins, etc). The extra space could be used to store a few pints of<BR>
> spare blood, a small oxygen tank, or whatever.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Hmm. As one of my Pathology profs used to say :-<BR>
'It's called the liver because you can't live without it'.<BR>
<BR>
The gastrointestinal tract does a lot more than take in water and<BR>
nutrients. There's a huge amount of lymphoid and neural tissue in it,<BR>
of  uncertain importance.<BR>
<BR>
What you have described is equivalent to the total parenteral nutrition<BR>
that critically ill people are often given - 'raw' amino acids, lipids<BR>
and carbohydrates. It does a number of interesting things to liver<BR>
function.<BR>
It also has no effect in prolonging survival, unlike enteral feeding (a<BR>
nutrient slurry given through a tube into the stomach).<BR>
<BR>
> One possible enhancement would be making the lungs a flow-thru system.<BR>
> That would eliminate most of the problems from "dead space".<BR>
It would eliminate all of the problems associated with anatomical dead<BR>
space, which is a consequence of tidal ventilation.<BR>
<BR>
Alveolar dead space is another kettle of fish altogether ; ventilation<BR>
and perfusion matching is of paramount importance.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
- ------------------<BR>
note the first bit of the sig!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:34:28 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
Cheryl <cheryl@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/14/00 9:30 PM, Rob Eaglestone at downport@home.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > <BR>
> > red@europa.com wrote:<BR>
> >> <BR>
> >> Then again, the GM wasn't anywhere near as good<BR>
> >> as our current one, the Evil Tod.<BR>
> >> <BR>
> >> Red<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Oh yeah baby, I've seen his website.  I've read<BR>
> > the logs.  He's a sneaky one, that's for sure.<BR>
> > Where are you guys again?  Maybe I can get a<BR>
> > transfer...<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Rob<BR>
> > <BR>
> Portland, OR. And the Evil Tod occasionally welcomes fresh meat, I<BR>
> mean new players.<BR>
<BR>
Good heavens, there's a lot of us on the TML in Portland Oregon.  <BR>
I'm in inner SE.<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:50:41 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > How about Cheetahs?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > According to http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s40791.htm,<BR>
> > the world population of Cheetahs dropped to less than *seven* some<BR>
> > 10,000 years ago, and possibly suffered this severe a population<BR>
> > drop more than once.  The species is now so inbred that all cheetahs<BR>
> > are almost genetically identical to each other.<BR>
> <BR>
> A theory I've heard put forth is that the *entire* wild population<BR>
> died out or was hunted to extinction. The current population is<BR>
> descended from cheetahs used by the Ancient Egyptians for hunting. Or<BR>
> more properly, from escapees. <BR>
<BR>
I doubt humans could have hunted them to extinction that long ago, <BR>
with the weapons of the day.  However, they could have simply <BR>
died out in the wild and the only ones left were escaped tame <BR>
ones.   <BR>
 <BR>
> > ObTrav: Leave a population Zero world (say, six stranded human<BR>
> > explorers, three men and three women) alone for 500 years on an<BR>
> > uncharted garden world.  What will you find there when the planet is<BR>
> > rediscovered?<BR>
> <BR>
> They may all die. Or you could find a *very* odd population, as small<BR>
> populations have a very high chance of losing genes through sheer<BR>
> random chance.<BR>
<BR>
There is the group in South America descended from two women <BR>
and one man, or some almost as small number a couple hundred <BR>
years ago where something like 10 or 15% of male infants appear <BR>
to be female until puberty, when they become normal males.  <BR>
Some minor exceedingly rare recessive mutation which one of <BR>
founders had and which is now fixed in the population.<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindsprin.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:07:04 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> Actuaslly, most of us theorized that they were bisexual, with little or no<BR>
> social problems stemming from that actvity.<BR>
<BR>
Ah... OK... my mistake.<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:11:00 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Inbreeding<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
> fighting over what?<BR>
> <BR>
> If they are ship crew/PC's they should be savvy enough to find a way off the<BR>
> planet...<BR>
<BR>
Wrong!<BR>
<BR>
If they are average PC's, they are *sure* to fight...     :-)<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:06:26 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2604<BR>
<BR>
At 21:18 14.06.00, you wrote:<BR>
>Cheryl wrote:<BR>
> > Do other group routinely have PC's killing each other off?<BR>
><BR>
>Is this a good time to trot out the "Head of Vecna" story?<BR>
<BR>
Its always a good time to trot out the HoV story.<BR>
Never ceases to crack me up.<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:20:39 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Merciful puns<BR>
<BR>
Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
> Hey wait... don't you mean the army of the Jihad will Never Land (a<BR>
> fragment) of their forces on your Heartland?<BR>
<BR>
They will not be able to enter our Dominion, even if they use Something<BR>
Fast, like a hoovercraft, for transportation. All such attempts will be<BR>
met with a such an amount of artillery fire it will seem like a Rain<BR>
From Heaven. A Slight Case Of Overbombing solves most problems.<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 02:28:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The middle class lived with multiple people to a room? How about a culture<BR>
> where the middle class lives with a dead grandma? Among the Torajans of<BR>
> Sulawesi that's precisely what happens. After grandma dies, they wrap her in<BR>
> heavy absorbent materials until she ceases to be offensive. Eventually, she<BR>
> becomes a table or a shelf and after a number of years she is removed. While<BR>
> she is in the house she is not referred to as being dead, she is "sleeping"<BR>
> or "has a headache".<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav: It is certainly somewhat unsanitary, but something like this might<BR>
> provide interesting color for player characters visiting a starship (or<BR>
> hired on to a starship).<BR>
><BR>
> "What's that pile of blankets other there?"<BR>
> "Dad, he passed the ship down to me before taking his nap."<BR>
> "Oh..."<BR>
> "Well, don't be shy, aren't you going to say hello to him?"<BR>
<BR>
It doesn't have to be unsanitary. Just freeze dry them (like some folks<BR>
are doing with pets now). They'll look very natural.<BR>
<BR>
Isn't technology wondeful?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 02:35:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Burrito Files<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Rob, I was perusing your 'burrito files' on downport and thought I could<BR>
> contribute a bunch of material.  Also, I have a wonderful little program<BR>
> called faces (for doing crime suspect composites) that I use for player/NPC<BR>
> pictures.  There are several examples on travellercentral.<BR>
<BR>
I assume this program is proprietary, or otherwise restricted from<BR>
distribution? <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 06:33:47 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: keyboard kill<BR>
<BR>
This sounds like the band that opened for that overblown bunch of <BR>
pompous loons called Veedback.<BR>
<BR>
for subtle rock and roll I suggest a concert by Tir. the concert <BR>
opens with bagpipe versions of the Imperial March followed by <BR>
Wipeout, and finishes with Stairway to Heaven, and an exploding <BR>
haggis.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:21:33 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Burrito Files<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]<BR>
> Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 11:35 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Burrito Files<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Rob, I was perusing your 'burrito files' on downport and <BR>
> thought I could<BR>
> > contribute a bunch of material.  Also, I have a wonderful <BR>
> little program<BR>
> > called faces (for doing crime suspect composites) that I <BR>
> use for player/NPC<BR>
> > pictures.  There are several examples on travellercentral.<BR>
> <BR>
> I assume this program is proprietary, or otherwise restricted from<BR>
> distribution? <BR>
<BR>
If not.... I wanna copy, I wanna copy, pleeeease <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:15:49 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: gender differences/social structure<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Have you heard about the studies that traced some childrens games and<BR>
>ryhmes back several *centuries*. All transmitted from child to child.<BR>
>At least, they are the sort of things adults are unlikely to have<BR>
>bothered teaching the kids.<BR>
<BR>
Considering the fact that the most common nursery rhymes were published<BR>
close to 300 years ago it's not surprising that they go back several<BR>
centuries. However, there are also a lot of folk etymologies for various<BR>
nursery rhymes out there which tie certain rhymes to a specific person,<BR>
place or event. Many of these are really off the mark. If you have any<BR>
specific ones you want to check, send me an email and I'll see what I can<BR>
turn up. Believe it or not there are some folklorists out there who study<BR>
folklore about nursery rhymes! You'd be surprised how many variations there<BR>
are of the "'Ring around the Rosie' is about the Bubonic Plague" legend out<BR>
there.<BR>
<BR>
For what it's worth the various Mother Goose collections - of which there<BR>
have been hundreds, if not thousands - were intended to teach kids to read.<BR>
After a fashion, the rhymes were the sorts of things that parents would<BR>
teach their children. Many educators point out that John Newbery actually<BR>
had it right; they're a great teaching tool. As I mentioned at the<BR>
beginning, many of the originals are still in print after nearly three<BR>
hundred years and will probably continue until childhood disappears... which<BR>
may not be too far off.<BR>
<BR>
But yes, for now you can find stability, even in the modern world.<BR>
<BR>
(Incidentally, Charles Perrault, the author who popularized the character<BR>
known as Mother Goose fired one of the opening salvos of the Enlightenment,<BR>
which helped to bring about the modern world.)<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:<BR>
<BR>
"Did you know that 'Sing a Song of SixCreds' started out as a pirate<BR>
recruiting song?"<BR>
"No way! That's a bunch of garbage, everybody knows that pirates don't<BR>
exist."<BR>
"Well, 'Humpty Dumpty' was actually about a Tigress called Humpty Dumpty<BR>
which collided with a small moon. The king obviously refers to the emperor."<BR>
"I don't know, it sounds fishy. Why would they call a Tigress Humpty Dumpty<BR>
anyway?"<BR>
"It was a breed of cat on Terra."<BR>
"Ohhhh! I see."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:17:09 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Jun 00, at 13:54, Smith, Walter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: Leave a population Zero world (say, six stranded human<BR>
> explorers, three men and three women) alone for 500 years on an<BR>
> uncharted garden world.  What will you find there when the planet is <BR>
> rediscovered?<BR>
<BR>
Rimmerworld? <grins and ducks for cover><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:39:50 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: keyboard kill<BR>
<BR>
>>> On the other side of that problem, we have people like Kiri, Peter,<BR>
Bloo,<BR>
CmdrX, Black Ice, Kenji, and the rest of the TML, who, while individually<BR>
and collectively a danger to keyboards everywhere, should be incorriged<BR>
[sic].  Frequently.<BR>
<BR>
>>Some of those other names sound like they might make a good Japanese<BR>
Rock<BR>
Group.<BR>
>><BR>
>LOL!!!  I listen to almost nothing but Japanese rock and pop when I'm<BR>
left<BR>
>to my own devices, though I do like some American and British artists as<BR>
>well.  These names are not nearly weird enough to compete with the<BR>
Spoozys,<BR>
>Lolita 18, Boy-Knife (bettah known as Shounen Knife), Thee Michelle Gun<BR>
>Elephant, Mr. Children, and a number of other acts.  (Not my favorite<BR>
acts<BR>
>just a sampling of typical band names... though I've a soft spot for the<BR>
>Spoozys as I have seriously flirted with a member of that band.)<BR>
<BR>
>>"Lets give it up for Kiri and the Listies. We've got Commander X on the<BR>
Guitar (Commander X does a guitar rift using all 3 cords he knows), Black<BR>
Ice on the base (Ice bows and makes an R rated gesture with his electric<BR>
base). Bloo on the keyboards (Bloo taps a single key and an over sampled<BR>
cord pirated from "Wipeout" goes through the room), Kenji on weasel<BR>
powered<BR>
guitar (Kenji puts two fresh weasels into his guitar and tosses the tired<BR>
out weasels into the audience) and our lead singer is Kiri Aradia Morgan."<BR>
(the audience goes wild screaming "Kiri, Kiri, Kiri" as Kiri enters from<BR>
stage left, on the video screen behind the stage an image of Hindu Kali<BR>
cultists chanting "Kali, Kali, Kali" in perfect time to the audience chant<BR>
or "Kiri, Kiri, Kiri.")<BR>
>><BR>
>Not bad.  Kirsten, if we do that next time we play karaoke, do you think<BR>
>they'll get our names right?<BR>
<BR>
Only 3 chords?  Gee thanks, I can't even play ONE chord in Real Life(tm)<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
>I used to be the front for an atrocious band when I was in college.  I<BR>
have<BR>
>a good voice and quite a bit of stage presence and might be a rock star<BR>
>today if I could have found people to play with that actually liked music<BR>
>BETTER than drugs.  I have too much fun playing karaoke!<BR>
<BR>
>>Kiri: "Thank you, thank you very much."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Hey everyone, is the TML ready to ROCK?<BR>
<BR>
>Good, let's party down!!!<BR>
<BR>
>This one's for Hiroshi... whenever you are this time, you beautiful<BR>
>bastard...<BR>
<BR>
>(insert concert footage here)<BR>
<BR>
>Now calm down everybody.<BR>
<BR>
>The Empress has left the building.   That's right, the Empress has now<BR>
left<BR>
>the building...<BR>
<BR>
>("...I told you that woman was nuts.  Is this really what she did before<BR>
>they put her to sleep?  We should have left her where she was."<BR>
<BR>
>"But Estigarribia likes her..."<BR>
<BR>
>"Yeah, and they took the place over dammit!!!  And why did he suddenly<BR>
take<BR>
>to dyeing his hair funny colors?")<BR>
<BR>
And herein we find the REAL reason why The Rule of Man failed after 400<BR>
years.<BR>
Kiri and the Listites and their followers (and then their decendants)<BR>
musta trashed the place!<BR>
;-><BR>
<BR>
This is just too funny...<BR>
<BR>
\  // Commander X<BR>
 \//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
T E K  Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //\  http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm<BR>
//  \ 0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 07:59:20 -0500<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: keyboard kill<BR>
<BR>
William Prankard wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> >The Empress has left the building.   That's right, the Empress has now<BR>
> left<BR>
> >the building...<BR>
> <BR>
> >("...I told you that woman was nuts.  Is this really what she did before<BR>
> >they put her to sleep?  We should have left her where she was."<BR>
> <BR>
> >"But Estigarribia likes her..."<BR>
> <BR>
> >"Yeah, and they took the place over dammit!!!  And why did he suddenly<BR>
> take<BR>
> >to dyeing his hair funny colors?")<BR>
> <BR>
> And herein we find the REAL reason why The Rule of Man failed after 400<BR>
> years.<BR>
> Kiri and the Listites and their followers (and then their decendants)<BR>
> musta trashed the place!<BR>
<BR>
Close.  The real reason was the massive increase in computer failures<BR>
following the release of SPLORT!, considered the definitive Kiri and the<BR>
Listies recording.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 06:28:25 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Burrito Files<BR>
<BR>
on 6/16/00 3:35 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
>> Rob, I was perusing your 'burrito files' on downport and thought I could<BR>
>> contribute a bunch of material.  Also, I have a wonderful little program<BR>
>> called faces (for doing crime suspect composites) that I use for player/NPC<BR>
>> pictures.  There are several examples on travellercentral.<BR>
> <BR>
> I assume this program is proprietary, or otherwise restricted from<BR>
> distribution? <BR>
<BR>
For those interested, faces is commercial software.  it is available from<BR>
http://www.facesinterquest.com/ for about $50.<BR>
<BR>
The output is not bad, and there are several examples on my website.  A good<BR>
collection is the infamous Weseli family (a bunch of small time crooks).<BR>
See http://www.travellercentral.com/NPC/weseli.html<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:56:12 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>Someone wrote:<BR>
>>Female Aslan in comfortable shoes :  Long story... basically, since a <BR>
>>majority of the Aslan population is female, it is theorized by several <BR>
>>TMLers that many Aslan females are lesbians. "Woman in comfortable <BR>
>>shoes" is a way of writing the word "lesbian" without using any dirty <BR>
>>words. <BR>
><BR>
>Actuaslly, most of us theorized that they were bisexual, with little or <BR>
>no social problems stemming from that actvity. <BR>
<BR>
It's also possible that without certain physical cues present...for<BR>
example, a landed, confident, physically mature male currently<BR>
presenting strong pursuit behaviors - female Aslan may be as sexually<BR>
expressive, physically speaking, as a filing cabinet.  They'll express <BR>
*social* sexual behaviors - such as fulfilling classic Aslan feminine <BR>
roles - but they won't be skirt-chasing, if this is the case.<BR>
<BR>
There's no reason Aslan women need to be like Human women, always<BR>
"in heat".<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 05:41:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>> ObTrav: Leave a population Zero world (say, six stranded human<BR>
>>> explorers, three men and three women) alone for 500 years on an<BR>
>>> uncharted garden world.  What will you find there when the planet is<BR>
>>> rediscovered?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> They may all die. Or you could find a *very* odd population, as small<BR>
>> populations have a very high chance of losing genes through sheer<BR>
>> random chance.<BR>
><BR>
> There is the group in South America descended from two women <BR>
> and one man, or some almost as small number a couple hundred <BR>
> years ago where something like 10 or 15% of male infants appear <BR>
> to be female until puberty, when they become normal males.  <BR>
> Some minor exceedingly rare recessive mutation which one of <BR>
> founders had and which is now fixed in the population.<BR>
<BR>
And damn lucky for them that there was little access to "modern<BR>
medicine" until now. I shudder to think what would happen to such an<BR>
infant at a "modern medical facility" in the US if the attending<BR>
physician examined the newborn at all closely...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 05:39:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Cheryl <cheryl@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> on 6/14/00 9:30 PM, Rob Eaglestone at downport@home.com wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > <BR>
>> > red@europa.com wrote:<BR>
>> >> <BR>
>> >> Then again, the GM wasn't anywhere near as good<BR>
>> >> as our current one, the Evil Tod.<BR>
>> >> <BR>
>> >> Red<BR>
>> > <BR>
>> > Oh yeah baby, I've seen his website.  I've read<BR>
>> > the logs.  He's a sneaky one, that's for sure.<BR>
>> > Where are you guys again?  Maybe I can get a<BR>
>> > transfer...<BR>
>> > <BR>
>> > Rob<BR>
>> > <BR>
>> Portland, OR. And the Evil Tod occasionally welcomes fresh meat, I<BR>
>> mean new players.<BR>
><BR>
> Good heavens, there's a lot of us on the TML in Portland Oregon.  <BR>
> I'm in inner SE.<BR>
<BR>
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com <BR>
<BR>
NE, near 60th & Prescott.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:07:43 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Help with Traveller colony<BR>
<BR>
A friend of mine asked me to forward this to the TML.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Forwarded message from Munther, Sven -----<BR>
>From Sven.Munther@Copenhagen.NCR.COM  Thu Jun 15 17:31:07 2000<BR>
Message-ID: <18AE10089C31D4118ED90000C08D7F0041BF4B@SDKCPH04><BR>
From: "Munther, Sven" <Sven.Munther@Copenhagen.NCR.COM><BR>
To: "'Hans Rancke-Madsen'" <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Hjlp med Traveller coloni<BR>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:30:44 +0200<BR>
Return-Receipt-To: "Munther, Sven" <Sven.Munther@Copenhagen.NCR.COM><BR>
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)<BR>
<BR>
I need some material about a very small and newly establish<BR>
colony (25-200 persons, TL 10-12). So much Traveller material <BR>
is in existence (and a fair chunk of it sits on my shelf), but it is <BR>
hard to find specific information.<BR>
 <BR>
For a start I need a map which a bunch of houses surrounded<BR>
by a fence or some other kind of protection and some kind of <BR>
wilderness outside that. But what would really help was if the <BR>
material contains details about the colonist: UPP, job, personality, <BR>
picture, etc.<BR>
 <BR>
Can anybody help me with a Traveller (or 2300AD, GURPS space,<BR>
whatever) reference.<BR>
 <BR>
Sven<BR>
<BR>
- ----- End of forwarded message from Munther, Sven -----<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their<BR>
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"<BR>
                                (after Tom Lehrer)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2618<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2619</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 16 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2619<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Burrito Files<BR>
RE: Merciful puns<BR>
Re:  Character Sketching Software (Was Burrito Files)<BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
Re: keyboard kill<BR>
Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
Re: body mods<BR>
Robot Spreadsheet<BR>
Happy Fun Ball<BR>
RE: Character Sketching Software (Was Burrito Files)<BR>
Re: Help with Traveller colony<BR>
Privateers<BR>
RE: Fiddling with "High Guard"<BR>
Re: Merciful puns<BR>
Re: keyboard kill<BR>
RE: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
Re: Merciful puns<BR>
Re: keyboard kill<BR>
Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2618<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2617<BR>
Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:13:48 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Burrito Files<BR>
<BR>
Ok,  but can it draw an Aslan?  A Vargr?  How about a Hiver?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 16 Jun 2000, at 6:28, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/16/00 3:35 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > In mail you write:<BR>
> > <BR>
> >> Rob, I was perusing your 'burrito files' on downport and thought I<BR>
> >> could contribute a bunch of material.  Also, I have a wonderful<BR>
> >> little program called faces (for doing crime suspect composites)<BR>
> >> that I use for player/NPC pictures.  There are several examples on<BR>
> >> travellercentral.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > I assume this program is proprietary, or otherwise restricted from<BR>
> > distribution? <BR>
> <BR>
> For those interested, faces is commercial software.  it is available<BR>
> from http://www.facesinterquest.com/ for about $50.<BR>
> <BR>
> The output is not bad, and there are several examples on my website. <BR>
> A good collection is the infamous Weseli family (a bunch of small time<BR>
> crooks). See http://www.travellercentral.com/NPC/weseli.html<BR>
> <BR>
> Tod<BR>
> --<BR>
> "Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
> killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
> -- <BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 07:08:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Merciful puns<BR>
<BR>
On Thursday, June 15, 2000 5:02 PM<BR>
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm said,<BR>
<BR>
> We are not about to let the army of the Jihad advance into our<BR>
> Heartland. Rest assured that no one of our soldiers will be Giving<BR>
> Ground to our enemy, at least not on my Watch. If we do have to retreat<BR>
> from an area, we will Torch everything of value, watching it Burn as we<BR>
> leave. We refuse to bow down and Kiss the Carpet before our enemy's<BR>
> feet!<BR>
Aaaagggh.  I thought my rule for sorting my Dominion e-mail and TML into<BR>
separate folders had gotten messed up.<BR>
<BR>
Now I am left envisioning Andrew having himself placed in a prototype low<BR>
berth to try and finally escape the g*th tag and being revived at the height<BR>
of the 3I.  After cashing in on all the back royalties he picks up an old<BR>
merc cruiser, has Doktor Avalanche installed as the ships central computer,<BR>
and proceeds to kick off a new tour giving "Disaster_Area" what for and<BR>
still not releasing a new album.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
Thing under the stairs,<BR>
Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
==================================<BR>
"It's lonely here, there's no one left to torture" -Leonard Cohen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:43:24 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  Character Sketching Software (Was Burrito Files)<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone tried NBOS' Character Sketcher?<BR>
<BR>
A nice character sketcher would be nice for those of us who are <BR>
artistically deprived except for on a computer. But, aren't most of <BR>
them just collections of features and clothing?  Can any of them <BR>
draw aliens?  Full bodies?<BR>
<BR>
Are there other suggestions for character sketches?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:33:46 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
<BR>
Moin Peter Newman,<BR>
<BR>
> This may set a maximum price for jump or freight but I fail <BR>
> to see how it sets a _minimum_ price. Unless you have a vast<BR>
> network of Imperial government accountants constantly monitoring<BR>
> every single business transaction that takes place it is<BR>
> too easy to get provide a service at a lesser price. No<BR>
> such Price Control Board exists in canon.<BR>
<BR>
  We dont need a 'price control board' - its enough to constrain prices<BR>
  for the subsidary fleet, which will fix the maximum price, and to have<BR>
  superior ships in the early Sylean Trade Federation to kick any other<BR>
  Tl:10 trade line out of bussiness.<BR>
<BR>
  Most Liner designs can barly make any profit with the 1kCr per displacement<BR>
  ton of freight plus 10kCr for high passage. Its possible for the common<BR>
  400dt/J1 Trader to make a profit without subsidary, but difficult for<BR>
  jump:2 or better vessels.<BR>
<BR>
  e.g. The common Bastien Class Jump 3 Liner<BR>
<BR>
  Costs per year :<BR>
<BR>
  		Free Trader				Subsidary<BR>
  Bank		8290 kCr				1658 kCr<BR>
  Fuel		 841 kCr (26 jumps)			 841 kCr<BR>
  Overhaul	 165 kCr				 165 kCr<BR>
  Berthing	  26 kCr (26 starport visits)		  26 kCr<BR>
  Salary         240 kCr (average crew)			 240 kCr<BR>
  Life Support   312 kCr (crew)				 312 kCr<BR>
                --------				--------<BR>
                9874 kCr				3242 kCr<BR>
<BR>
  Revenue on 100% utilization on 26 jumps.<BR>
<BR>
  High Passage  4368 kCr				2184 kCr<BR>
  Low Passage    468 kCr				 234 kCr<BR>
  Freight        910 kCr				 455 kCr<BR>
  Mail           650 kCr				 650 kCr<BR>
                --------				--------<BR>
                6396 kCr				3523 kCr<BR>
<BR>
  So this class of ship would generate about 3,5 MCr anualy accounting<BR>
  loss to continue service, if financed by a bank. If financed by a<BR>
  subsidary contract the bank share would be lowerd so it can make its<BR>
  profit. But if running subsidary its 'half owned' by the Imperium,<BR>
  so it can be drafted into military service when needed, and has to sell<BR>
  its service for a fixed price on a route defined by the need of the<BR>
  Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
  So we have still the question: Why does the imperium subsidize trade ?<BR>
<BR>
  And my answer is: Without trade economies can not sustain a techlevel<BR>
  higher than their population level. Without a subsidary fleet freight<BR>
  capacity would be unrelyable and freight price object to the spot<BR>
  market. Both would ruin any bussiness, that has to rely on hightech<BR>
  produced on more than one system, and restrict any system to a techlevel<BR>
  equal or lower than its population level. This restriction caused the<BR>
  long night, IMTU.<BR>
<BR>
  As a common word says ' the Imperium does own nothing but the space<BR>
  between the stars '.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
<BR>
PS : My Kebra Nagast Class Jump 2 Liner would have a cross profit of 10 MCr<BR>
     and a cross receipt of 7MCr, generating a net profit of 3 MCr per year.<BR>
     This class was quite common till 760, when the Gushemege Merchantile<BR>
     Guild lost their starport capacity and had to go into underground.<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 07:48:43 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: keyboard kill<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> William Prankard wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
> > <BR>
> > >The Empress has left the building.   That's right, the Empress has now<BR>
> > left<BR>
> > >the building...<BR>
> > <BR>
> > >("...I told you that woman was nuts.  Is this really what she did before<BR>
> > >they put her to sleep?  We should have left her where she was."<BR>
> > <BR>
> > >"But Estigarribia likes her..."<BR>
> > <BR>
> > >"Yeah, and they took the place over dammit!!!  And why did he suddenly<BR>
> > take<BR>
> > >to dyeing his hair funny colors?")<BR>
> > <BR>
> > And herein we find the REAL reason why The Rule of Man failed after 400<BR>
> > years.<BR>
> > Kiri and the Listites and their followers (and then their decendants)<BR>
> > musta trashed the place!<BR>
> <BR>
> Close.  The real reason was the massive increase in computer failures<BR>
> following the release of SPLORT!, considered the definitive Kiri and the<BR>
> Listies recording.<BR>
> <BR>
I love it when I can get you guys to be silly!!!!<BR>
<BR>
Kiri, who enjoys the serious stuff, but isn't a terribly serious person<BR>
sometimes.<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:53:50 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Travel Costs<BR>
<BR>
That Whitchurch person writes:<BR>
>The absolute fundamental problem with this is that small worlds will tend to<BR>
>export to, and import from, big worlds, not to each other.<BR>
<BR>
	The great majority of cargo traffic with a small world probably goes<BR>
	to/from a large world, but I can imagine situations in which regular<BR>
	cargo traffic between small worlds might take place.<BR>
<BR>
>A 200 dton Free Traders' other problem with two bit worlds is all those IISS<BR>
>surplus type S scouts floating around. I suspect it's them, rather than type<BR>
>A1s, that do most of the trade to pop 4 and down worlds.<BR>
<BR>
	It depends on just how many type S scouts are floating around, but I<BR>
	tend to agree.<BR>
<BR>
>>For a four parsec direct run between two high-pop worlds, both the<BR>
>>Free Trader and Far Trader are going to get blown away by the big<BR>
>>Jump-4 (or 2XJump-2) cargo liners that this long term profit-making<BR>
>>trade route will develop.<BR>
>No. The optimum size for a trader is jump-3. A jump-4 route will see jump-2<BR>
>traders dominate, with a refuelling stop in the middle (the 2 days to go in<BR>
>and refuel arent worth losing 20% of your ship's volume for).<BR>
<BR>
	How expensive is it to build and maintain a refueling stop in deep<BR>
	space?  It may be viable, though it doesn't seem to happen in the<BR>
	OTU.  In any event, the extra time that it would take to stop and<BR>
	refuel and go through a second jump would influence the bottom line.<BR>
<BR>
>>>Jump-1 traders are, generally speaking, only viable to do certain<BR>
>>>specific runs,<BR>
>>Like any run involving a thinly-inhabited Jump-1 main in the same<BR>
>>area as high-pop worlds.<BR>
>No, because you are better off doing a hub-and-spoke type arrangement. Mains<BR>
>are really irrelevant, once you invent jump-2.<BR>
<BR>
	This depends on the arrangement of the systems, how far you imagine<BR>
	cargo moves, how prevelent piracy is, etc., does it not?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:57:24 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: body mods<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>One possible enhancement would be making the lungs a flow-thru system.<BR>
>>That would eliminate most of the problems from "dead space".<BR>
>It would eliminate all of the problems associated with anatomical dead<BR>
>space, which is a consequence of tidal ventilation.<BR>
>Alveolar dead space is another kettle of fish altogether ; ventilation<BR>
>and perfusion matching is of paramount importance.<BR>
<BR>
	An interesting aside: bird lungs are designed for 'flow-through'<BR>
	ventilation.  This is part of the reason that mountain-climbers<BR>
	who are using oxygen tanks so that they can get enough oxygen to<BR>
	walk slowly have seen birds flying at even higher altitude.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:32:59 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Robot Spreadsheet<BR>
<BR>
Who was asking about the spreadsheet for designing robots from Book 8?  I<BR>
have mine on hand, if they (or anyone else) is interested).  Just contact<BR>
me off-list.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:10:47 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Happy Fun Ball<BR>
<BR>
Only sorta OT (think of a cargo of these):<BR>
<BR>
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/happy-fun-ball.html<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:17:47 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Character Sketching Software (Was Burrito Files)<BR>
<BR>
Looking at the data files for Faces, it should be possible for someone of an<BR>
artistic bent to create features for aliens that would allow the creation of<BR>
alien composites.  Perhaps we could even build a freeware version of a<BR>
compositor.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone artistic out there interested in contributing?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of James<BR>
> Pearson<BR>
> Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 7:43 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Character Sketching Software (Was Burrito Files)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Has anyone tried NBOS' Character Sketcher?<BR>
><BR>
> A nice character sketcher would be nice for those of us who are<BR>
> artistically deprived except for on a computer. But, aren't most of<BR>
> them just collections of features and clothing?  Can any of them<BR>
> draw aliens?  Full bodies?<BR>
><BR>
> Are there other suggestions for character sketches?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:08:20 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Help with Traveller colony<BR>
<BR>
Try World Tamers Handbook. It's a TNE book but it's _entirely_ about<BR>
setting up small TL10-12 colonies...If you don't have it, I have it, but<BR>
as I'm off for two weeks starting tomorrow I'm unlikely to be of<BR>
help...:-(<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> A friend of mine asked me to forward this to the TML.<BR>
> <BR>
> ----- Forwarded message from Munther, Sven -----<BR>
> >From Sven.Munther@Copenhagen.NCR.COM  Thu Jun 15 17:31:07 2000<BR>
> Message-ID: <18AE10089C31D4118ED90000C08D7F0041BF4B@SDKCPH04><BR>
> From: "Munther, Sven" <Sven.Munther@Copenhagen.NCR.COM><BR>
> To: "'Hans Rancke-Madsen'" <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
> Subject: Hjlp med Traveller coloni<BR>
> Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:30:44 +0200<BR>
> Return-Receipt-To: "Munther, Sven" <Sven.Munther@Copenhagen.NCR.COM><BR>
> X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21)<BR>
> <BR>
> I need some material about a very small and newly establish<BR>
> colony (25-200 persons, TL 10-12). So much Traveller material<BR>
> is in existence (and a fair chunk of it sits on my shelf), but it is<BR>
> hard to find specific information.<BR>
> <BR>
> For a start I need a map which a bunch of houses surrounded<BR>
> by a fence or some other kind of protection and some kind of<BR>
> wilderness outside that. But what would really help was if the<BR>
> material contains details about the colonist: UPP, job, personality,<BR>
> picture, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> Can anybody help me with a Traveller (or 2300AD, GURPS space,<BR>
> whatever) reference.<BR>
> <BR>
> Sven<BR>
> <BR>
> ----- End of forwarded message from Munther, Sven -----<BR>
> <BR>
>       Hans Rancke<BR>
> University of Copenhagen<BR>
>      rancke@diku.dk<BR>
> ------------<BR>
> "I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their<BR>
> fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"<BR>
>                                 (after Tom Lehrer)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:09:28 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Privateers<BR>
<BR>
I was poking around for other reasons and came across this "Letter of<BR>
Marque" from Canada's history.  THought it might be inspiring to some:<BR>
<BR>
HIS EXCELLENCY<BR>
    Sir JOHN WENTWORTH, Baronet, L.L.D.<BR>
    Lieutenant-Governor and Commander in Chief, in and<BR>
    over His Majesty's Province of Nova-Scotia, and it's<BR>
    Dependencies, &c. &c. &c.<BR>
<BR>
    These are to certify that Joseph Freeman of Liverpool in the Province<BR>
of Nova Scotia Master of the Ship called the Duke of Kent a British Ship<BR>
Navigated by one hundred men including officers Mounting Twenty Carriage<BR>
Guns having Applied to me for an Authority to cruise against all His<BR>
Majesty's Enemies & having received his Majesty's Commands to encourgae<BR>
all His Majesty's Subjects by every means in their power to distress and<BR>
annoy the Trade of all His Majestys Enemies. And the said Ship having been<BR>
duly Registered in His Majesty's Custom House in this province as a<BR>
British Ship & being regularly described in such Register to ehivh there<BR>
present refer. <BR>
<BR>
    I do by virtue of the Power & Authority to me given conformable to His<BR>
Majestys pleasure expressed to me by the Right Honourable and Most Noble<BR>
His Grace the Duke of Portland & by the Right Honourable Henry Dundas,<BR>
Authorize and Empower the said Joseph Freeman in and with the said Ship<BR>
called the Duke of Kent to cruise against all His Majesty's Enemies, and<BR>
am fully authorized to assure him all all others involved in said private<BR>
Ship of War, That His Majesty will consider him & them as fully Entitled<BR>
to an having a just claim to all vessels & property of every kind which he<BR>
or they shall make prize of from all or any of His Majesty's Enemies,<BR>
provided the same shall have been first condemned as Lawful prize to His<BR>
Majesty In His Majestys High Court of Admiralty or in some of His<BR>
Majesty's Courts of Vice Admiralty having lawful authority to take<BR>
Cognizance of the same.<BR>
<BR>
    Given under my Hand & Seal of Arms at Halifax this 6th day of Nov.<BR>
1799 in the 39th Year of His Majesty's Reign <BR>
<BR>
    By His Excellency's Command<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Seems like a long-winded way to say "Go get'em boys, what you take is<BR>
yours!" :-)<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 07:44:35 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fiddling with "High Guard"<BR>
<BR>
At 21:04 -0400 15/6/00,  "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I used to do this for my Hard Time campain - I just assumed 20 tons per dton<BR>
>as average and went with it. :)<BR>
><BR>
>I was much less a gearhead then.. Oh the memorys of the happy, shiny<BR>
>times...<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, it was Hard Times I raided for the figures I posted:<BR>
<BR>
the MT rules averaged 10T/dT for civilians, and 30T/dT for military ships...<BR>
<BR>
Avergaing those gives..... 20T/dT!<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 07:48:14 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Merciful puns<BR>
<BR>
At 0:08 -0400 16/6/00, Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com> wrote:<BR>
>Hey wait... don't you mean the army of the Jihad will Never Land (a<BR>
>fragment) of their forces on your Heartland?<BR>
<BR>
Would that be on the Black Planet that Marian mentioned?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:25:42 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: keyboard kill<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Shadowcat wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This sounds like the band that opened for that overblown bunch of <BR>
> pompous loons called Veedback.<BR>
> <BR>
Watchit!  Mordred Rosegold is actually my cousin-- they pay him not to<BR>
come home, too.<BR>
<BR>
Julissa Myal haut-D'Bari, Senior Scout, IISS<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:26:27 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: RE: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 15 Jun 00, at 13:54, Smith, Walter wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > ObTrav: Leave a population Zero world (say, six stranded human<BR>
> > explorers, three men and three women) alone for 500 years on an<BR>
> > uncharted garden world.  What will you find there when the planet is <BR>
> > rediscovered?<BR>
> <BR>
> Rimmerworld? <grins and ducks for cover><BR>
> <BR>
I wanna know who their kids married!<BR>
<BR>
(I liked Rimmer's books, actually...)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:32:43 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Merciful puns<BR>
<BR>
> Would that be on the Black Planet that Marian mentioned?<BR>
<BR>
No, you've got the Colours all wrong.<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:32:54 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: keyboard kill<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, William Prankard wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Only 3 chords?  Gee thanks, I can't even play ONE chord in Real Life(tm)<BR>
> ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
By the time I'm Empress, I'm sure you can learn three chords.<BR>
<BR>
> >("...I told you that woman was nuts.  Is this really what she did before<BR>
> >they put her to sleep?  We should have left her where she was."<BR>
> <BR>
> >"But Estigarribia likes her..."<BR>
> <BR>
> >"Yeah, and they took the place over dammit!!!  And why did he suddenly<BR>
> >take to dyeing his hair funny colors?")<BR>
> <BR>
> And herein we find the REAL reason why The Rule of Man failed after 400<BR>
> years.<BR>
<BR>
LOL.  The funny colors remark is an insinuation that Hiroshi Estigarribia<BR>
is a reincarnation of Hiroshi Narita, my ex-boyfriend, whose hair was a<BR>
different color every week for a good long while (he worked in the music<BR>
business).  By the time of the Second Imperium he may indeed have gotten<BR>
his head out of his butt (I'm amazed his hair wasn't brown more often.)<BR>
<BR>
In the month of January, 2000, Hiroshi's hair was the<BR>
following colors:<BR>
<BR>
Dark purple (this looked really good and I wish he had kept it)<BR>
<BR>
Ronald-Mc-Donald (I shit you not) red, with iridescent highlights<BR>
(unfortunately he left his eyebrows black, and he has The Samurai Eyebrow,<BR>
and it looked REALLY weird and not in a good way)<BR>
<BR>
Deep magenta with black and purple streaks<BR>
<BR>
Salmon pink.<BR>
<BR>
> Kiri and the Listites and their followers (and then their decendants)<BR>
> musta trashed the place!<BR>
> ;-><BR>
> <BR>
Uh, don't confuse me with the Dirty Pair.  (these are my backup singers,<BR>
Kei and Yuri.  They are called THE LOVELY ANGELS.)<BR>
<BR>
> This is just too funny...<BR>
> <BR>
LOL, that's the idea!  (Besides getting me to laugh away my heartache,<BR>
that is.)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:29:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
<BR>
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
>Subject: RE: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
><BR>
>It is a reference to the operational sex ratio in Aslan society.<BR>
>Because there are supposed to be more females than males, it has<BR>
>been suggested that many females may be homosexual.  From there,<BR>
>the stereotype of homosexual females wearing comfortable rather<BR>
>than traditional (uncomfortable) womens shoes completes the<BR>
>picture.  The sex lives of female Aslan, the nature of Feudal<BR>
>Technocracies, the utility of fighters in space combat, and why<BR>
>rocks launched at relativistic speads are not used to attack<BR>
>planetary targets are topics that have been argued about on the<BR>
>TML with, um, passion.  Kind of like whether pirates can exist in<BR>
>the Traveller universe.<BR>
<BR>
Well here I thought it was somewhat related to the anatomical difficulties that Aslan have in <BR>
finding comfortable shoes--somewhat along the lines of Cool Paws Boots for Vargr.<BR>
<BR>
Sex Lives of Female Aslan -- Bisexual, way to go !<BR>
Feudal Technocracy -- ?? <BR>
Fighters -- cool<BR>
Near-c Rocks -- they have been used in the distant past, but MAD and Rules of War prohibit <BR>
               their use today.  Its an ever-present threat though.<BR>
Pirates -- my PC had a brother who was killed by Pirates.  If they don't exist tell that to my <BR>
              PC brother !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:10:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2618<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:56:12 -0400<BR>
>From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes<BR>
><BR>
>Someone wrote:<BR>
>>Female Aslan in comfortable shoes<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>It's also possible that without certain physical cues present...for<BR>
>example, a landed, confident, physically mature male currently<BR>
>presenting strong pursuit behaviors - female Aslan may be as sexually<BR>
>expressive, physically speaking, as a filing cabinet.<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>There's no reason Aslan women need to be like Human women, always<BR>
>"in heat".<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	Gee, thanks...another perfectly good fantasy down the tubes  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
	(...and serious Anthropomorphic fan)<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - The half-baked opinions expressed above are my own fault.<BR>
Anyone trying to blame them on my employer is nuttier than I am.<BR>
(In fact, anyone suggesting that this company cares even the slightest about<BR>
Traveller, near-C Rocks, or Female Aslan in comfortable shoes should seek<BR>
professional help immediately.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:11:59 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2617<BR>
<BR>
Kiri wrote:<BR>
> Kenji on weasel powered guitar (Kenji<BR>
> puts two fresh weasels into his guitar and tosses the tired<BR>
> out weasels into the audience)<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm. Dave Barry is right. Weasels _are_ inherently funny.<BR>
<BR>
- -RB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:22:44 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Rimmerworld? <grins and ducks for cover><BR>
> ><BR>
> I wanna know who their kids married!<BR>
> <BR>
> (I liked Rimmer's books, actually...)<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Holograms can write books?? <BR>
<BR>
Or is it 'Ace' Rimmer? 'Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!'<BR>
<BR>
But somehow, the name 'Rimmer' in a topic about 'inbreeding' certainly<BR>
seems to make sense...;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2619<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2620</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 16 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2620<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
Re: Character Sketches<BR>
Rimmerworld (Was:RE: inbreeding (OT))<BR>
Advanced computing (was Re: Character Sketches)<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re: Merciful puns<BR>
Heaven & Earth Inclusion of Trade Routes<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re:  Character Sketching Software (Was Burrito Files)<BR>
RE: Privateers<BR>
Re: Merciful puns<BR>
RE: Character Sketches<BR>
Re: Merciful puns<BR>
Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:33:13 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > Rimmerworld? <grins and ducks for cover><BR>
> > ><BR>
> > I wanna know who their kids married!<BR>
> > <BR>
> > (I liked Rimmer's books, actually...)<BR>
> > <BR>
> <BR>
> Holograms can write books?? <BR>
> <BR>
> Or is it 'Ace' Rimmer? 'Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!'<BR>
> <BR>
> But somehow, the name 'Rimmer' in a topic about 'inbreeding' certainly<BR>
> seems to make sense...;-)<BR>
> <BR>
Robert Rimmer<BR>
<BR>
Author of:  The Harrad Experiment, Proposition 21 (not sure if I have the<BR>
right number), The Rebellion of Yale Marrat, and lots of other books about<BR>
group marriage.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:38:49 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
<BR>
>Holograms can write books??<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    If they are solid light holograms.<BR>
<BR>
>Or is it 'Ace' Rimmer? 'Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!'<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Ace & AJ Rimmer are the same person.  The last Ace Rimmer trained the<BR>
current AJ Rimmer to take over his place, before he died.<BR>
<BR>
>But somehow, the name 'Rimmer' in a topic about 'inbreeding' certainly<BR>
>seems to make sense...;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Yes, Arnold Judas Rimmer does seem to have some inbreeding in his<BR>
background.<BR>
<BR>
    ObTrav:  As Traveller does have the technology, would it be possible to<BR>
have a dead character return as a hologram?<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:44:54 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Character Sketches<BR>
<BR>
<James Pearson><BR>
Are there other suggestions for character sketches? <BR>
</JP><BR>
<BR>
If you find a picture that looks pretty good for your character, but looks<BR>
a little too "Sears Catalog" or whatever, you can always scan it in and<BR>
"sketchify" it in Adobe Photoshop. <BR>
<BR>
There are a variety of filters which will do this.  One I find works well<BR>
is to "High Pass" (under Filters:Other) to about 1.5 pixels radius and<BR>
then turn the contrast (under Image:Adjust) to 100%.  You may find it<BR>
helps to turn the Brightness up a couple of notches.  This is on Photoshop<BR>
5.5 for the Mac.  <BR>
<BR>
This process creates something very much like a line drawing.  It will<BR>
often take away the "catalogness" of images and allows easier fiddling by<BR>
the artisitically challenged (such as myself). <BR>
<BR>
<Technobabble>Of course, if you're a programming type, you can implement<BR>
any sort of edge-detection algorithm, such as a 2D Fourier Transform<BR>
passed through a Butterworth filter and then thresholded. </Technobabble><BR>
<BR>
Anyone have any similar suggestions?  I've tried futzing around with the<BR>
Charcoal & Chalk filter, etc., but never get really good results.<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:49:54 +0200<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Rimmerworld (Was:RE: inbreeding (OT))<BR>
<BR>
At 14:17 16.06.00, you wrote:<BR>
>Rimmerworld? <grins and ducks for cover><BR>
<BR>
Great Episode!<BR>
Reminds me of the time the entire RD-Collection was on E-Bay Germany, and i <BR>
couldnt get to my PC in time to register a final bid. Being outbid in the <BR>
final minute is really annoying, when you cant be there to play that game <BR>
as well... Who has auctions end at 16.45 h anyways :-(<BR>
- ---<BR>
Volker A. Greimann<BR>
greimann@geocities.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:05:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Advanced computing (was Re: Character Sketches)<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <Technobabble>Of course, if you're a programming type, you can implement<BR>
> any sort of edge-detection algorithm, such as a 2D Fourier Transform<BR>
> passed through a Butterworth filter and then thresholded. </Technobabble><BR>
<BR>
<ExtremeTechnobabble><BR>
Of course you can do it even faster and more elegantly using lenses and<BR>
opaque stops. A lens produces a 2D Fourier Transform of the input image in<BR>
its focal plane, so you can filter your signal by putting an opaque pattern<BR>
in the focal plane. Another lens will do another transform, which results in<BR>
your original signal, but filtered (and off by a constant, since you have to<BR>
do two forward transforms rather than a forward followed by an inverse).<BR>
<BR>
I believe that many synthetic-aperture radars actually use similar<BR>
techniques for signal processing. It's great since light goes through your<BR>
lenses extremely fast. I'm guessing here, but I think that Fourier Optics,<BR>
by Goodman, has details.<BR>
</Extreme Technobabble><BR>
<BR>
I have always assumed that advanced TL computers rely heavily on technology<BR>
which does not appear commonly today, like optical signal processing. The<BR>
optical stuff is just too fast (given the right problem) to ignore. Since<BR>
this stuff is really fairly low TL, however, you have to really stretch your<BR>
imagination to get the stuff you will see at TL12 or higher.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:09:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
Basing speed limits on 6Gs I don't think is reasonable because a manuever drive equipped <BR>
missile can go a lot faster than 6Gs.<BR>
<BR>
Additionally, as a Bussard Ramjet can use an electromagnetic field to scoop up hydrogen for <BR>
fuel what is to prevent ships/missiles from using the concept in reverse.  That is, using an <BR>
electromagnetic field to push hydrogen/dust out of the way.<BR>
<BR>
While there is probably a speed limit it will be much higher than 4 % of c.<BR>
<BR>
I am in favor of increasing the tech level for manuever drives to TL 16.<BR>
<BR>
For ships/missiles that are travelling at a high fraction of c, can you even hit the things ?  At <BR>
1% of the speed of light you will cover a BL hex (30,000 km) in 10 seconds ! <BR>
<BR>
During the period between the Great War and World War II, there was a contraversy in <BR>
aviation circles regarding which was more important:  agility or speed.  World War II showed <BR>
conclusively that speed was way more important.<BR>
<BR>
In traveller I expect that space combat will be fought almost exclusively at near-c speeds.  <BR>
The advantage of travelling at near-c speeds versus a foe that was significantly slower would <BR>
be overwhelming--somewhat along the lines of jet fighters versus prop fighters.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
>Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
>> I suppose someone ought to sit down and figure what sort of gas/dust<BR>
>> densities are reasonable for various parts of various kinds of system,<BR>
>> and what the max safe speed is for those densities.<BR>
<BR>
>Solar wind : 10^6 to 10^9 particles per cubic metre, with temperatures up to 10^5 K.<BR>
<BR>
>This is a thousand to a million times more rarefied than the hardest lab<BR>
>vacuums available, but about as 'hot' as the neon in a lit sign. I don't<BR>
>have any info to hand about dust densities, but a milligram per cubic km<BR>
>seems a reasonable ballpark figure.<BR>
<BR>
>Off the cuff, the probability of significant collisions seems low until<BR>
>you consider some velocities (see below).<BR>
<BR>
>> This would actually be kinda nice, because it'll remove most of the<BR>
>> silliness that thruster plates with their "accelerate forever" ability<BR>
>> introduced.<BR>
<BR>
>There was a note in FF&S2 which essentially stated that thruster<BR>
>performance fell off to 1% of nominal at 10^5 stellar diameters.<BR>
<BR>
>If we make it 10^3 stellar diameters, that would be about 20 AU for<BR>
>the sun. Assuming the usual constant boost to midpoint and turnaround,<BR>
>and acceleration of 6G (60ms^(-2)), this gives us a velocity at midpoint<BR>
>of :-<BR>
<BR>
>v= sqrt(2as), where s=1.5 X 10^12m<BR>
>v ~= 13416408ms^(-1), or 4.4% of c.<BR>
<BR>
>Let's call it 4%.<BR>
<BR>
> - --------------------------------------<BR>
>Invoking the near-c rocks debate :-<BR>
>I propose this as a speed limit for thruster-propelled anything ; space<BR>
>doesn't provide enough 'traction' for the vehicle to go any quicker.<BR>
>- --------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
>Using Leonard's numbers from his earlier post, 1mg at 4% of c is<BR>
>energetically equivalent to 35 tonnes TNT.<BR>
<BR>
>But given 1mg per cubic kilometre, a ship will encounter a small<BR>
>fraction of this (a 100m diameter vessel will sweep out 2500 X pi X 1000<BR>
>cubic metres or about 0.8% of a cubic kilometre of space).<BR>
<BR>
>This reduces the burden to 280kg of TNT per km travelled, distributed<BR>
>across the frontal area of the ship (~7800m^2 in this case). Having a <BR>
>minimum AV of 20 (1cm of superdense?) seems to be a very sensible idea<BR>
>in light of this.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:20:51 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Merciful puns<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 6:32 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Merciful puns<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > Would that be on the Black Planet that Marian mentioned?<BR>
> <BR>
> No, you've got the Colours all wrong.<BR>
> <BR>
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
> | jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
> | ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
> * http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
Ah yes!<BR>
<BR>
"...But we shall rearrange the Colours<BR>
Of the Red, and the White, and the Blue.<BR>
<BR>
Red is the Colour of the New Republic!<BR>
Blue is the Colour of the Sea!<BR>
White is the Colour of our Innocence,<BR>
Not Surrender to your Mer-cy!"<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:39:11 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Heaven & Earth Inclusion of Trade Routes<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone supply a set of rules or guidelines for generating Trade routes?<BR>
I am planning to incorporate a set of rules which allows H&E to generate<BR>
Trade Routes based on any rules available.<BR>
<BR>
I may just allow the user to create his own filters for this feature<BR>
<BR>
i.e. Starports of type A/B only. TL >10<BR>
<BR>
Any advice would be appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:53:48 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
I'm somewhat fond of thruster speed limits, because then you can assume that the T-plate has some form of static energy storage (which recharges and discharges based on speed relative to the 'ether') and evade conservation of energy problems.  Note that any 'ether' violates the fundamental precepts of relativity, but it isn't actually mathematically forbidden and is required to avoid causality violations for jump space anyway.<BR>
<BR>
A speed limit of about 1% * sqrt(Gs) will make the limits unattainable for flat acceleration of less than 3 AU or acceleration/deceleration for more than 6 AU, which should cover most insystem travel.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:07:09 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re:  Character Sketching Software (Was Burrito Files)<BR>
<BR>
On 06/16/00 at 09:43 AM,  "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Has anyone tried NBOS' Character Sketcher?<BR>
<BR>
>A nice character sketcher would be nice for those of us who are <BR>
>artistically deprived except for on a computer. But, aren't most of  them<BR>
>just collections of features and clothing?  Can any of them  draw aliens? <BR>
>Full bodies?<BR>
<BR>
>Are there other suggestions for character sketches?<BR>
<BR>
Some of the features, hair and clothing in PhotoRobot looks a<BR>
*whole* lot like the examples on the Faces site.  Does anyone know<BR>
if PhotoRobot is an earlier or scaled down version?<BR>
<BR>
The next question is what format are the feature files of either<BR>
PhotoRobot or Faces?  If they are something standard then we might<BR>
be able to edit and add alien features.<BR>
<BR>
I haven't heard of NBOS' Character Sketcher, information would be<BR>
appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:12:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Privateers<BR>
<BR>
> Subject: Privateers<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
[snip really cool posting]<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Seems like a long-winded way to say "Go get'em boys, what you take is<BR>
> yours!" :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Charles C.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
As an aside, I have a recruitment add for a privateer on my website, taken<BR>
from a Napoleonic style crew wanted poster (the original source is Patrick<BR>
O'Brien).  See the issue of Le Mercenaire titled 'Letter of Marque'<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com/mercenaire/mercenaire11.html<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:24:10 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Merciful puns<BR>
<BR>
At 3:47 -0400 16/6/00, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:<BR>
> <ahem> "There are to be no survivors - prepare the Brian Adams' .wav's"<BR>
<BR>
Argghh!<BR>
<BR>
Dive! Dive! Dive!<BR>
<BR>
Raise the Black Globe!<BR>
<BR>
Run for Jump!<BR>
<BR>
Anything, let's just get out of here!<BR>
<BR>
Dom <apologies to the Brian Adams fans out there><BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.<BR>
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can<BR>
   see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."<BR>
                   Fish /Raingods with Zippos/<BR>
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:22:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Character Sketches<BR>
<BR>
> If you find a picture that looks pretty good for your character, but looks<BR>
> a little too "Sears Catalog" or whatever, you can always scan it in and<BR>
> "sketchify" it in Adobe Photoshop.<BR>
><BR>
> There are a variety of filters which will do this.  One I find works well<BR>
> is to "High Pass" (under Filters:Other) to about 1.5 pixels radius and<BR>
> then turn the contrast (under Image:Adjust) to 100%.  You may find it<BR>
> helps to turn the Brightness up a couple of notches.  This is on Photoshop<BR>
> 5.5 for the Mac.<BR>
><BR>
> This process creates something very much like a line drawing.  It will<BR>
> often take away the "catalogness" of images and allows easier fiddling by<BR>
> the artistically challenged (such as myself).<BR>
><BR>
> <Technobabble>Of course, if you're a programming type, you can implement<BR>
> any sort of edge-detection algorithm, such as a 2D Fourier Transform<BR>
> passed through a Butterworth filter and then thresholded. </Technobabble><BR>
><BR>
> Anyone have any similar suggestions?  I've tried futzing around with the<BR>
> Charcoal & Chalk filter, etc., but never get really good results.<BR>
><BR>
> Charles C.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I use photoshop myself, and there are some cool plugins that add interesting<BR>
effects.  Source material also helps to keep characters from looking too<BR>
catalogy.  SOF, SWAT and other 'manly' mags are great for merc types.  The<BR>
male models in all fashion mags seem to all be sporting the eurotrash look.<BR>
Aliens are tougher, but there are some cool graphic mags like Albedo that<BR>
can be a source for personal use images.<BR>
<BR>
Check out work by Steve Galacci and Monica Livingston.<BR>
<BR>
I've also done some weird stuff with Morph and human/animal photos.<BR>
<BR>
I'll look at the file format of Faces images when I get home and post the<BR>
format. Hey we can add some fun stuff to the library like horns or fangs...<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:29:21 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Merciful puns<BR>
<BR>
At 14:20 -0400 16/6/00, "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <BR>
<jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
> > Would that be on the Black Planet that Marian mentioned?<BR>
>No, you've got the Colours all wrong.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I've No Time To Cry about that - I'll just Walk Away, as I <BR>
don't like getting stuck between A Rock and A Hard Place, and Logic <BR>
suggests that, First and Last and Always, the best way to avoid <BR>
getting caught in Detonation Boulevard is to use a bit of that Vision <BR>
Thing, leap in Doctor Jeep (which is obviously Driven like the Snow) <BR>
and avoid the Jihad by Giving Ground. There's nothing worse than <BR>
risking Body and Soul by being Under the Gun from Some Kind of <BR>
Stranger...<BR>
<BR>
Dom (All punned out and thinking we should stop wasting the bandwidth)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"Once we actually mapped it for publication it seemed to shrink<BR>
in size and was no longer the immensity that would take months<BR>
to traverse. As things become known, they lose grandeur."<BR>
After Steve Perrin, Pavis & Big Rubble Reprint Epilogue<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:40:24 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
> <BR>
> >Holograms can write books??<BR>
> <BR>
>     If they are solid light holograms.<BR>
> <BR>
> >Or is it 'Ace' Rimmer? 'Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!'<BR>
> <BR>
>     Ace & AJ Rimmer are the same person.  The last Ace Rimmer trained the<BR>
> current AJ Rimmer to take over his place, before he died.<BR>
<BR>
ARRGHHH!! LALALALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALALALALALALA<BR>
<BR>
Sorry..I haven't seen the last two seasons of RD yet! <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:37:46 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
On 06/16/00 at 12:53 PM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm somewhat fond of thruster speed limits, because then you can assume<BR>
>that the T-plate has some form of static energy storage (which recharges<BR>
>and discharges based on speed relative to the 'ether') and evade<BR>
>conservation of energy problems.  Note that any 'ether' violates the<BR>
>fundamental precepts of relativity, but it isn't actually mathematically<BR>
>forbidden and is required to avoid causality violations for jump space<BR>
>anyway.<BR>
<BR>
I posted this here several years ago.  It's one of my handwaves for<BR>
speed limits on reactionless thrusters.<BR>
<BR>
\space opera handwave on<BR>
<BR>
The "thruster" is actually a drive that interacts with the<BR>
zero-point force creating virtual pairs of particles from the<BR>
vacuum.  I call it the Aetheral Screw.<BR>
<BR>
Pulling these pairs out of space creates an energy deficient behind<BR>
the ship forming a pucker or wave in space-time.  This pucker in<BR>
space-time behind the ship displaces the ship's mass forward.  The<BR>
other masses in the universe soon even out the area of disturbed<BR>
vacuum, but for a short while there is a low vacuum energy "wake"<BR>
behind the ship.<BR>
<BR>
As the ship continues to accelerate, the half-life of the virtual<BR>
particle pairs forming ahead of the ship extend due to the energy<BR>
imbalance being formed at the T-plate.  At some level of velocity,<BR>
the particles last long enough to begin interacting with the<BR>
physical material of the hull and more importantly the T-plate<BR>
itself.  This interaction prduces resistance and friction heating<BR>
and the drive quickly tops out.<BR>
<BR>
\space opera handwave off<BR>
<BR>
So, does our Aethereal screw violate any laws of conservation?  Yea,<BR>
verily!  ;-><BR>
<BR>
Besides, if you handwave hard enough, momentum *is* conserved...the<BR>
momentum gained by the ship is pulled from the vacuum where it is<BR>
spread across all the matter of the entire universe.  Energy<BR>
conservation?  Absolutely!  It comes from the massive energy bank of<BR>
the vacuum.  <g><BR>
<BR>
Set accelerations at whatever your game needs:  1-6g for orthodox<BR>
Traveller, several hundred for more "fast paced" games.  Make energy<BR>
requirements depend on the mass and increase the energy needed as<BR>
you accelerate, and put material top-end velocities down around 1%<BR>
of c and let material/design improvements over several TL's increase<BR>
that to only 2 or 3% of c, and you take out the the .1c rock, too!<BR>
<BR>
How does *that* sound? ;-><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:56:10 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
John Snead sneadj@mindsprin.com<BR>
<BR>
>> There is the group in South America descended from two women<BR>
>> and one man, or some almost as small number a couple hundred<BR>
>> years ago where something like 10 or 15% of male infants appear<BR>
>> to be female until puberty, when they become normal males.<BR>
>> Some minor exceedingly rare recessive mutation which one of<BR>
>> founders had and which is now fixed in the population.<BR>
<BR>
Interestingly, *any* fetus will develop as phenotypically female, Y<BR>
chromosome or not, if it does not receive a dose of hormones known as<BR>
androgens in the womb. The effects, depending on how much or little the<BR>
fetus receives, can range from covertly 'feminine' features (gynocomastia,<BR>
etc.) to a neuter female where the testes never drop and are instead located<BR>
approximately where the ovaries should be.<BR>
<BR>
There is some speculation that this is what causes<BR>
transgenderism/transsexualism, especially if there *is* a difference between<BR>
male and female brain chemistry/structure (i.e., the brain develops as<BR>
'female' while the body develops as phenotypically male.) I don't know how<BR>
scientific this is, but I believe the recent study correlating finger length<BR>
and homosexuality theorized that the fetus had actually received too much<BR>
androgens!<BR>
<BR>
>And damn lucky for them that there was little access to "modern<BR>
>medicine" until now. I shudder to think what would happen to such an<BR>
>infant at a "modern medical facility" in the US if the attending<BR>
>physician examined the newborn at all closely...<BR>
<BR>
Yah. Intersex births are much more common than usually supposed (I think<BR>
approx 1 in 10,000, but don't quote me.) Leonard is referring to the<BR>
tendency of medical doctors to "correct" intersex births towards one or the<BR>
other sex. (True, fully functioning hermaphroditism is very rare; more<BR>
commonly, the child will have a combination of partially functional sexual<BR>
characteristics.) A famous case was when one male twin underwent a botched<BR>
circumcision as an infant. The doctor convinced the parents to raise the<BR>
child as a girl, complete with hormone supplements when 'she' reached<BR>
puberty. But the kid never felt right as a girl, and upon learning of 'her'<BR>
true condition, reversed the sex change and now lives as male (and is<BR>
married and raising a family.)<BR>
<BR>
There's an ObTrav coming: At what point does fully functional, reversible<BR>
sex-change become possible? Looking at the MT charts, I guess no earlier<BR>
than TL 11, no later than TL 13 (when organ cloning becomes available.) I've<BR>
toyed with the idea of doing a society where it is commonplace for most<BR>
people to have at least one sex change in their life...the sexes remain<BR>
'polarized' but it is common to switch places. In fact, you're not<BR>
considered a real 'person' until you do (some hold out for 'until you've<BR>
*borne* a child,' but they're extremists.)<BR>
<BR>
Fred "I know why the Aslan wear comfortable shoes" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:53:34 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
Eris Reddoch wrote:<BR>
>The "thruster" is actually a drive that interacts with the <BR>
>zero-point force creating virtual pairs of particles from the <BR>
>vacuum.  I call it the Aetheral Screw. <BR>
><BR>
>Pulling these pairs out of space creates an energy deficient behind <BR>
>the ship forming a pucker or wave in space-time.  This pucker in <BR>
>space-time behind the ship displaces the ship's mass forward.  The <BR>
>other masses in the universe soon even out the area of disturbed <BR>
>vacuum, but for a short while there is a low vacuum energy "wake" <BR>
>behind the ship. <BR>
<BR>
Do this right, and you can have the T-Plate create a "Wake" - a<BR>
disruption in space time that persists long enough, and over a large<BR>
enough area, that other T-Plates will be affected.  Perhaps they<BR>
get a performance boost if going in the same direction, and degraded<BR>
performance if going a different direction?  Or perhaps, since that<BR>
area of space is already stretched, another T-Plate crossing it<BR>
will work poorly or not at all?<BR>
<BR>
This could make space combat very interesting.  Put enough T-Plates<BR>
together, and they could all slow down to a (relative) crawl...<BR>
maybe even so slow that the combat can last a while.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:00:46 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
VonRammen wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> There's an ObTrav coming: At what point does fully functional, reversible<BR>
> sex-change become possible? Looking at the MT charts, I guess no earlier<BR>
> than TL 11, no later than TL 13 (when organ cloning becomes available.) I've<BR>
> toyed with the idea of doing a society where it is commonplace for most<BR>
> people to have at least one sex change in their life...the sexes remain<BR>
> 'polarized' but it is common to switch places. In fact, you're not<BR>
> considered a real 'person' until you do (some hold out for 'until you've<BR>
> *borne* a child,' but they're extremists.)<BR>
> <BR>
> Fred "I know why the Aslan wear comfortable shoes" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
Well, Samuel R. Delany's novel "Triton" touches on similar topics,<BR>
certainly that of a society where sex-changes were commonly available,<BR>
and there's an old short story (I cannot remember who wrote it) about a<BR>
couple from such a society talking to an old person who doesn't know<BR>
they've 'switched' and saying how sweet it is that they're resisting<BR>
fashion and staying what they were born as.<BR>
<BR>
Possibly in one of the "Dangerous Visions" anthologies; that's certainly<BR>
the right time frame, early 70's.<BR>
<BR>
I'm old.<BR>
<BR>
I remember reading those when they were _new_.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:28:28 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
I just bought a Commodore-64 and want to transfer my files from my<BR>
Commodore-64 to my 486.  Both have modems attached.  The C-64 is running<BR>
CCGMS 17 and the 486 is running Telemate for DOS.<BR>
<BR>
How can I get files from the Commodore to the 486?<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 4:22 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Character Sketches<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> > If you find a picture that looks pretty good for your character, but<BR>
looks<BR>
> > a little too "Sears Catalog" or whatever, you can always scan it in and<BR>
> > "sketchify" it in Adobe Photoshop.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > There are a variety of filters which will do this.  One I find works<BR>
well<BR>
> > is to "High Pass" (under Filters:Other) to about 1.5 pixels radius and<BR>
> > then turn the contrast (under Image:Adjust) to 100%.  You may find it<BR>
> > helps to turn the Brightness up a couple of notches.  This is on<BR>
Photoshop<BR>
> > 5.5 for the Mac.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > This process creates something very much like a line drawing.  It will<BR>
> > often take away the "catalogness" of images and allows easier fiddling<BR>
by<BR>
> > the artistically challenged (such as myself).<BR>
> ><BR>
> > <Technobabble>Of course, if you're a programming type, you can implement<BR>
> > any sort of edge-detection algorithm, such as a 2D Fourier Transform<BR>
> > passed through a Butterworth filter and then thresholded.<BR>
</Technobabble><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Anyone have any similar suggestions?  I've tried futzing around with the<BR>
> > Charcoal & Chalk filter, etc., but never get really good results.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Charles C.<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> I use photoshop myself, and there are some cool plugins that add<BR>
interesting<BR>
> effects.  Source material also helps to keep characters from looking too<BR>
> catalogy.  SOF, SWAT and other 'manly' mags are great for merc types.  The<BR>
> male models in all fashion mags seem to all be sporting the eurotrash<BR>
look.<BR>
> Aliens are tougher, but there are some cool graphic mags like Albedo that<BR>
> can be a source for personal use images.<BR>
><BR>
> Check out work by Steve Galacci and Monica Livingston.<BR>
><BR>
> I've also done some weird stuff with Morph and human/animal photos.<BR>
><BR>
> I'll look at the file format of Faces images when I get home and post the<BR>
> format. Hey we can add some fun stuff to the library like horns or<BR>
fangs...<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2620<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2621</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 16 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2621<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Traveller-Culture list (was Re: 101 Social Structures)<BR>
Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
Re: Weasels<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2620<BR>
Re: inbreeding (OT<BR>
Re: inbreeding (OT<BR>
Society and sex-change (WAS: Inbreeding)<BR>
RE: Fiddling with "High Guard"<BR>
RE: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
OT Personal request again<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth Inclusion of Trade Routes (LONG)<BR>
Arbellatra<BR>
Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
Re: Arbellatra<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:32:22 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller-Culture list (was Re: 101 Social Structures)<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:14:27 -0400 (EDT), Black ICE<BR>
<wombat@premier.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
>> Sounds like something that the Traveller-Culture list might be a<BR>
>> good home for - anyone who wants to is welcome to come over and<BR>
>> drive our traffic up with some good useful material...<BR>
<BR>
>Well, since I got my sociology professor to sign off on using work on<BR>
>this project as my research paper, I'll do lots of work on it.<BR>
<BR>
>How do I subscribe to the Traveller Culture list?<BR>
<BR>
[gawd, doncha jus luvvit when yer allowed to have _fun_ for<BR>
_credit_? :) ]<BR>
<BR>
You can subscribe via the web by going to<BR>
http://www.egroups.com/, searching for Traveller-Culture, and<BR>
following the subscription instructions - I don't remember the<BR>
Traveller-Culture URI.<BR>
<BR>
You can subscribe via email by sending a message to<BR>
Traveller-Culture-subscribe@egroups.com.  Do this from the email<BR>
account at which you want to receive the list mail.<BR>
<BR>
(I'd be interested in knowing just how you justified this to your<BR>
prof...)<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:32:26 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starship "Quirks"<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:29:53 -0400 (EDT), "anunnaki"<BR>
<anunnaki@wanadoo.fr> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[Quoting The Roc]<BR>
<BR>
>> No gravity for the cat's requirement?  Ewwww, yuck!  Gives new meaning to<BR>
>> cat's spray!!<BR>
<BR>
>> "Look out!!!!!  The cat's taking a piss!!!!!!!!!!!!" <image of urine<BR>
>> propelled kitty spiralling across the room><BR>
<BR>
>> -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
>ROTFLMAO !!!!! OK, please, I can't stop cracking up when I get this<BR>
>TERRIFYING image in my head :)<BR>
<BR>
You think that's bad?  There's a place in New Jersey that's<BR>
_named_ after that image - or at least what they want to become<BR>
of that image...<BR>
<BR>
Or haven't you heard of Piss-cat-away?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 07:29:35 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Weasels<BR>
<BR>
> From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2617<BR>
><BR>
> Kiri wrote:<BR>
> > Kenji on weasel powered guitar (Kenji<BR>
> > puts two fresh weasels into his guitar and tosses the tired<BR>
> > out weasels into the audience)<BR>
><BR>
> Hmmm. Dave Barry is right. Weasels _are_ inherently funny.<BR>
><BR>
> - -RB<BR>
<BR>
It's better than that. Kenji Schwarz was the inventor of the infamous<BR>
Weasel-Powered Laser Rifle ("Wild Weasel" is a military term that means<BR>
something very different among the Sayat).<BR>
<BR>
It was even almost legal under FFS2 ...<BR>
<BR>
Can someone re-post the design and associated commentary ?<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:07:55 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2620<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
> VonRammen wrote:<BR>
> > There's an ObTrav coming: At what point does fully functional, reversible<BR>
> > sex-change become possible?<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, Samuel R. Delany's novel "Triton" touches on similar topics,<BR>
> certainly that of a society where sex-changes were commonly available,<BR>
> and there's an old short story (I cannot remember who wrote it) about a<BR>
> couple from such a society talking to an old person who doesn't know<BR>
> they've 'switched' and saying how sweet it is that they're resisting<BR>
> fashion and staying what they were born as.<BR>
<BR>
Most of John Varley's work allows for reversible, functional sex change,<BR>
and other extreme body modifications, with plenty of different sociological <BR>
results. His stuff is highly recommended for those interested in ideas about<BR>
the impact of extreme high tech on humanity.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:18:41 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: inbreeding (OT<BR>
<BR>
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
<BR>
>Well, Samuel R. Delany's novel "Triton" touches on similar<BR>
<BR>
>topics, certainly that of a society where sex-changes were<BR>
<BR>
>commonly available, and there's an old short story (I <BR>
>cannot remember who wrote it) about a couple from such a <BR>
>society talking to an old person who doesn't know they've <BR>
>'switched' and saying how sweet it is that they're<BR>
>resisting fashion and staying what they were born as.<BR>
<BR>
That reminds me of a short story by Marco Vassi, which<BR>
concerned a man who considered himself straight, but was<BR>
tormented by attraction to and desire for other men. <BR>
Eventually change his sex, thinking that if he were a woman<BR>
it would be great to be attracted to men.  <BR>
<BR>
However, on her first night out as a woman, she found<BR>
herself irrestibly drawn to a beautiful woman who was<BR>
sitting by the bar making eyes at her.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:18:56 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: inbreeding (OT<BR>
<BR>
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
<BR>
>Well, Samuel R. Delany's novel "Triton" touches on similar<BR>
<BR>
>topics, certainly that of a society where sex-changes were<BR>
<BR>
>commonly available, and there's an old short story (I <BR>
>cannot remember who wrote it) about a couple from such a <BR>
>society talking to an old person who doesn't know they've <BR>
>'switched' and saying how sweet it is that they're<BR>
>resisting fashion and staying what they were born as.<BR>
<BR>
That reminds me of a short story by Marco Vassi, which<BR>
concerned a man who considered himself straight, but was<BR>
tormented by attraction to and desire for other men. <BR>
Eventually change his sex, thinking that if he were a woman<BR>
it would be great to be attracted to men.  <BR>
<BR>
However, on her first night out as a woman, she found<BR>
herself irrestibly drawn to a beautiful woman who was<BR>
sitting by the bar making eyes at her.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:34:15 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Society and sex-change (WAS: Inbreeding)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>>Well, Samuel R. Delany's novel "Triton" touches on similar topics,<BR>
certainly that of a society where sex-changes were commonly available,<BR>
and there's an old short story (I cannot remember who wrote it) about a<BR>
couple from such a society talking to an old person who doesn't know<BR>
they've 'switched' and saying how sweet it is that they're resisting<BR>
fashion and staying what they were born as.<BR>
<BR>
Possibly in one of the "Dangerous Visions" anthologies; that's certainly<BR>
the right time frame, early 70's.<<<<BR>
<BR>
Haven't read either, though I do remember a story called, IIRC, "Changes"<BR>
that I read in the 80s and was made last year into an episode of some series<BR>
on the Sci-Fi channel (actually, pretty well done.) The mechanism used was<BR>
full-body cloning and brain transplant (called "simple"!) in the story, some<BR>
sort of nanotech in the TV show. The show was realistic in positing several<BR>
weeks to accomplish the change (the person was in cold sleep during the<BR>
procedure.)<BR>
<BR>
NB that my speculation isn't the same as "Left Hand of Darkness" where you<BR>
have a society that is essentially genderless except during procreation,<BR>
although such a result is certainly possible.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, as I noted in my original post, there may be such a sthing as an<BR>
innate sense of maleness/femalenss, possibly related to hormones received<BR>
during gestation. So unless you modify brain chemistry/structure, you might<BR>
not get "true/complete" sex change.<BR>
<BR>
OTGH, not everybody believes there are structural/chemical differences<BR>
between the brains of the sexes. The issue is highly complex and there are a<BR>
lot of *societal* presumptions clouding the research (like the need for<BR>
doctors to "correct" intersex births, Western "binary" gender constructions<BR>
versus the "trinary" (or more) constructions of Thai and Native American<BR>
cultures, etc...) And the evidence itself is open to debate.<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:07:45 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fiddling with "High Guard"<BR>
<BR>
Yeah - when I was running HT - I owned FFS-1 - FFS-1 did the average :)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of SD Mooney<BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 11:45 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Fiddling with "High Guard"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 21:04 -0400 15/6/00,  "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I used to do this for my Hard Time campain - I just assumed 20 tons per<BR>
dton<BR>
>as average and went with it. :)<BR>
><BR>
>I was much less a gearhead then.. Oh the memorys of the happy, shiny<BR>
>times...<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, it was Hard Times I raided for the figures I posted:<BR>
<BR>
the MT rules averaged 10T/dT for civilians, and 30T/dT for military ships...<BR>
<BR>
Avergaing those gives..... 20T/dT!<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:08:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
Good Lord - I have to move to portland<BR>
<BR>
Honny - pack up my shooter! Weyall be movein to da Big City!!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
Erickson<BR>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 6:40 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Cheryl <cheryl@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> on 6/14/00 9:30 PM, Rob Eaglestone at downport@home.com wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > <BR>
>> > red@europa.com wrote:<BR>
>> >> <BR>
>> >> Then again, the GM wasn't anywhere near as good<BR>
>> >> as our current one, the Evil Tod.<BR>
>> >> <BR>
>> >> Red<BR>
>> > <BR>
>> > Oh yeah baby, I've seen his website.  I've read<BR>
>> > the logs.  He's a sneaky one, that's for sure.<BR>
>> > Where are you guys again?  Maybe I can get a<BR>
>> > transfer...<BR>
>> > <BR>
>> > Rob<BR>
>> > <BR>
>> Portland, OR. And the Evil Tod occasionally welcomes fresh meat, I<BR>
>> mean new players.<BR>
><BR>
> Good heavens, there's a lot of us on the TML in Portland Oregon.  <BR>
> I'm in inner SE.<BR>
<BR>
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com <BR>
<BR>
NE, near 60th & Prescott.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:12:07 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: OT Personal request again<BR>
<BR>
Still looking for somebody who knows sombody who knows sombody . . . etc. <BR>
with acess to a heat press of the type used to imprint assorted fabrics. <BR>
Anybody's brother work at a T-shirt/Award shop?<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:56:50 -0500<BR>
From: Terry Mixon <tmixon@ghg.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth Inclusion of Trade Routes (LONG)<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Can anyone supply a set of rules or guidelines for generating Trade routes?<BR>
> I am planning to incorporate a set of rules which allows H&E to generate<BR>
> Trade Routes based on any rules available.<BR>
<BR>
I happen to be pretty familiar with the rules for Gurps Traveller as put out in<BR>
Far Trader and amended by Jim MacLean.<BR>
Any mistakes or omissions are my own.<BR>
<BR>
The below rules are paraphrased but not intended to infringe on any copyrights<BR>
held by Steve Jackson games or anyone else. The work below is for educational<BR>
purposes and many quotes are taken from Far Trader for educational purposes.<BR>
<BR>
The steps use Gurps world statistics so a conversion from Traveller basic to<BR>
Gurps stats must be done first. The below is what is included in Far Trader<BR>
with some modifications as put forward by Jim MacLean, the designer of the<BR>
trade rules, that have been used in the work done on the Solomoni Rim book.<BR>
<BR>
To start, you need to know the World Trade Number. Follow the steps below to<BR>
figure that out.<BR>
<BR>
1. Determine Unmodified World Trade Number (UWTN).<BR>
<BR>
UWTN = TL Modifier + Population Modifier<BR>
<BR>
TL Modifier Table<BR>
<BR>
TL             TL Modifier<BR>
<BR>
 0- 2           -0.5<BR>
 3- 5            0<BR>
 6- 8            0.5<BR>
 9-11            1<BR>
12-13            1.5<BR>
<BR>
Population Modifier Table<BR>
<BR>
Population                    Population Modifier<BR>
<BR>
0-9                               0<BR>
10-99                             0.5<BR>
100-999                           1<BR>
1,000-9,999                       1.5<BR>
10,000-99,999                     2<BR>
100,000-999,999                   2.5<BR>
1,000,000-9,999,999               3<BR>
10,000,000-99,999,999             3.5<BR>
100,000,000-999,999,999           4<BR>
And so on with each factor of 10 adding 0.5 to the total.<BR>
<BR>
2. Determine Port Modifier<BR>
<BR>
Port Modifier Table<BR>
<BR>
      Starport Class   V    IV    III    II     I     0<BR>
UWTN<BR>
7+                     0    -1    -1.5   -2    -2.5  -5<BR>
6-6.5                  0    -0.5  -1     -1.5  -2    -4.5<BR>
5-5.5                  0     0    -0.5   -1    -1.5  -4<BR>
4-4.5                 +0.5   0     0     -0.5  -1    -3.5<BR>
3-3.5                 +0.5  +0.5   0      0    -0.5  -3<BR>
2-2.5                 +1    +0.5  +0.5    0     0    -2.5<BR>
1-1.5                 +1    +1    +0.5   +0.5   0     0<BR>
<1                    +1.5  +1    +1     +0.5  +0.5   0<BR>
<BR>
3. Determine World Trade Number<BR>
<BR>
WTN = UWTN + Port Modifier<BR>
<BR>
Now you are ready to find the Bilateral Trade Number for the worlds in<BR>
question.<BR>
<BR>
1. Determine the World Trade Classification Modifier (WTCM).<BR>
<BR>
One world is Ag and the other is either Ex or Na:     +0.5<BR>
One world is In and the other is Ni:                  +0.5<BR>
Worlds are of differing Political Allegiance:         -0.5<BR>
<BR>
Client states are considered part of the government they are clients of for<BR>
these calculations.<BR>
<BR>
Agricultural (Ag): Requires all of the following conditions to be met. Thin to<BR>
Very Dense atmosphere (may be tainted), surface water between 35% and 84%, and<BR>
population between 100,000 and 99,999,999.<BR>
<BR>
Extreme Conditions (Ex): Any of the following. Diameter is <500 miles.<BR>
Atmosphere is Trace or less. Atmosphere is Super Dense or greater. Atmosphere<BR>
is corrosive or exotic. If a world is As, De, Eo, Ic or Va is also Ex.<BR>
<BR>
Industrial (In): Requires both of the following conditions to be met. Trace or<BR>
less atmosphere or tainted atmosphere to start. Also the world must have a<BR>
population of 1,000,000,000 or more.<BR>
<BR>
Non-Agricultural (Na): All of the following required. Very thin or less<BR>
atmosphere. Surface water less than 35%. Population of 1,000,000 or more.<BR>
<BR>
Non-Industrial (Ni): Population of less than 10,000,000.<BR>
<BR>
2. Determine Distance Modifier.<BR>
<BR>
Count the hexes distance between the two worlds. Avoid Yellow or Red zones and<BR>
class II or lower starports. Routes along X-boat lines may use J-4. Stick to<BR>
jump three or less for other routes. It may have to be re-figured if the path<BR>
you traced will not support a Feeder or above route. Minor routes are limited<BR>
to establishing J-2 or lower. Minor routes may use a higher jump route that has<BR>
been established for another route though. You need to figure the Bilateral<BR>
Trade Number before you know that the route is a Minor or not.<BR>
<BR>
The WTN Modifier is shown on the table below.<BR>
<BR>
Distance<BR>
<BR>
0-1                0<BR>
2                 -0.5<BR>
3-5               -1<BR>
6-9               -1.5<BR>
10-19             -2<BR>
20-29             -2.5<BR>
30-59             -3<BR>
60-99             -3.5<BR>
100-199           -4<BR>
200-299           -4.5<BR>
300-599           -5<BR>
600-999           -5.5<BR>
1,000+            -6<BR>
<BR>
3. Calculate the Bilateral Trade Number (BTN).<BR>
<BR>
BTN = WTN1 + WTN2 + WTCM - Distance Modifier.<BR>
<BR>
The model breaks down when the difference is extreme. The BTN may not be<BR>
greater than the smaller Gross World Product X 10.<BR>
<BR>
GWP is figured using the tables below with GWP equal to Base Per-Capita income<BR>
x the planetary population.<BR>
<BR>
Base Per-Capita Income<BR>
<BR>
TL        Income in Cr<BR>
13           24,400<BR>
12           15,000<BR>
11            9,375<BR>
10            5,860<BR>
 9            3,660<BR>
 8            2,290<BR>
 7            1,430<BR>
 6              895<BR>
 5              560<BR>
 4              350<BR>
 3              220<BR>
 2              135<BR>
 1               85<BR>
 0               55<BR>
<BR>
Modifiers to Base Per-Capita Income<BR>
<BR>
Trade Class<BR>
Rich                  x1.6<BR>
Industrial            x1.4<BR>
Agricultural          x1.2<BR>
Poor                  x0.8<BR>
Extreme               x0.8<BR>
Non-Industrial        x0.8<BR>
<BR>
Some of the above Trade Classes were described earlier. Here are the new ones.<BR>
<BR>
Rich:  All of the following must be met. Standard to Very Dense non-tainted<BR>
atmosphere. Population between 1,000,000 and 999,999,999. Moderate to high<BR>
Control rating (2-5).<BR>
<BR>
Poor: Very Thin or Thin atmosphere and a surface water between 5% and 35%.<BR>
<BR>
BTN is shown in Cr trade per year.<BR>
<BR>
BTN<BR>
<BR>
0        0-5<BR>
0.5      5-10<BR>
1        10-50<BR>
1.5      50-100<BR>
2        100-500<BR>
2.5      500-1,000<BR>
3        1,000-5,000<BR>
3.5      5,000-10,000<BR>
4        10,000-50,000<BR>
4.5      50,000-100,000<BR>
5        100,000-500,000<BR>
5.5      500,000-1,000,000<BR>
6        1,000,000-5,000,000<BR>
6.5      5,000,000-10,000,000<BR>
7        10,000,000-50,000,000<BR>
7.5      50,000,000-100,000,000<BR>
8        100,000,000-500,000,000<BR>
8.5      500,000,000-1,000,000,000<BR>
9        1,000,000,000-5,000,000,000<BR>
9.5      5,000,000,000-10,000,000,000<BR>
10       10,000,000,000-50,000,000,000<BR>
10.5     50,000,000,000-100,000,000,000<BR>
11       100,000,000,000-500,000,000,000<BR>
11.5     500,000,000,000-1,000,000,000,000<BR>
12+      1,000,000,000,000+<BR>
<BR>
Trade routes<BR>
<BR>
BTN<BR>
12     Super<BR>
11     Major<BR>
10     Main<BR>
 9     Feeder<BR>
 8     Minor<BR>
<BR>
Does that help?<BR>
<BR>
Terry<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:12:53 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Arbellatra<BR>
<BR>
"Right full rudder!  Full reverse!  Wait...wait...Left full rudder!  Full<BR>
speed ahead!  Yes!  We're back on topic!"<BR>
<BR>
*Ahem* Sorry about that, but we have wandered far afield on this and I was<BR>
hoping to get back to the lady herself.  Indeed, all this talk about<BR>
Arbellatra has got me thinking about campaign ideas.  I was thinking one<BR>
could do a very nice intrigue campaign set around the march to Capital. <BR>
The PCs could be random individuals in Arbellatra's fleet (better if<BR>
they're all from the same big ship, maybe the lead battleship /<BR>
battlecarrier) chosen by her to act as her "eyes and ears" among the crew.<BR>
After all, she's just decided she's marching on the core, there's bound to<BR>
be _some_ dissent, even for so charismatic a figure.  And while she will<BR>
_of course_ pull a Henry V at some point, she's too busy to do it all the<BR>
time.  So...<BR>
<BR>
A few questions:<BR>
<BR>
- -Arbellatra Alkhalikhoi (AA) had just won the 2FW in 620.  She made it to<BR>
the core by 622.  What kind of speed does this require?  Does it imply<BR>
high jump ships with the others left behind?<BR>
<BR>
- -What would be the composition of her fleet?<BR>
<BR>
- -What kind of resistance did she encounter along the way?  Would planets<BR>
refuse to supply her ships?  Would she give them a choice?  Would other<BR>
Imperial fleets, realizing what she was doing, try to intervene?<BR>
<BR>
- -We know she encountered Gustus and the Central Fleet at Zhimaway in 622.<BR>
What would the CF consist of after all the fighting of the previous years?<BR>
<BR>
- -How did she present the idea to her crew initially?  Was there dissent? <BR>
How did she deal with it? <BR>
<BR>
- -At the end of the 2FW she would have been just 33! [620-587] Isn't that a<BR>
bit young?  How did she manage to become grand admiral at that age?  <BR>
<BR>
- -How cool was her uniform and in what way did it radiate coolness? :-)<BR>
<BR>
All feedback appreciated!<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:22:54 -0500<BR>
From: "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Thursday, June 15, 2000 9:27 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
><BR>
>Improved lungs came up in the "superhuman" discussion. Concensus was<BR>
>that while bird lungs are much more efficient at oxygen/CO2 exchange<BR>
>they are also *far* more vulnerable to gaseous toxins (that's why<BR>
>canaries in a mine keel over before humans are in danger) as well as<BR>
>more susceptible to infection.<BR>
><BR>
>One possible enhancement would be making the lungs a flow-thru system.<BR>
>That would eliminate most of the problems from "dead space". It *would*<BR>
>require redesigning the trachea and nasal passages to act as a<BR>
>countercurrent exchanger for both heat and moisture (actually, it does<BR>
>that already, but we want it to exchange them between *seperate*<BR>
>channels).<BR>
><BR>
<snipped>--<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
I was at the Indianapolis Children's Museum today (highly recommended to<BR>
anyone in the area with children) and learned a few interesting tidbits<BR>
about dolphins, they have enormous lung capacity (can hold their breathe for<BR>
8 minutes without problem) and are much more efficient in their use of<BR>
oxygen as well, biologists are measuring lung capacity and work load and<BR>
have noticed that even when straining to work hard they don't expend a great<BR>
deal more energy.  And despite having perhaps one of the least designed<BR>
bodies for speed compared to fish they are much faster than almost all fish<BR>
and can swim 5 times faster than the fastest human swimmer.<BR>
ObTrav: I am sure it won't be much longer before they really understand alot<BR>
more about the dolphins and it could make for some interesting underwater or<BR>
even perhaps low oxygen environment modification to humans.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 02:49:10 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Charles Collin" <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
> A few questions:<BR>
><BR>
> -Arbellatra Alkhalikhoi (AA) had just won the 2FW in 620.  She made it to<BR>
> the core by 622.  What kind of speed does this require?  Does it imply<BR>
> high jump ships with the others left behind?<BR>
<BR>
Assuming ~30 Jumps per Year, then It was done in approximately 60 jumps. (of<BR>
course, if the 2FW was won early in 620, and her victory over Gustus was<BR>
late 622, it could be as high as ~80 jumps. Conversely if it was late 620 &<BR>
early 622, it could be as low as ~40)<BR>
<BR>
Spinward marches to Core is ~4.5 sectors, or 140-150 parsecs. So at least<BR>
J-2, probably J-3, possibly J-4 (IIRC, that would be the highest available<BR>
Jump number at Civil War TL's)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:45:28 -0500<BR>
From: "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
Can you surf that wake?  <envisions new sport><BR>
Wheeeee!<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Smith, Walter <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com' <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 4:01 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Eris Reddoch wrote:<BR>
>>The "thruster" is actually a drive that interacts with the<BR>
>>zero-point force creating virtual pairs of particles from the<BR>
>>vacuum.  I call it the Aetheral Screw.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Pulling these pairs out of space creates an energy deficient behind<BR>
>>the ship forming a pucker or wave in space-time.  This pucker in<BR>
>>space-time behind the ship displaces the ship's mass forward.  The<BR>
>>other masses in the universe soon even out the area of disturbed<BR>
>>vacuum, but for a short while there is a low vacuum energy "wake"<BR>
>>behind the ship.<BR>
><BR>
>Do this right, and you can have the T-Plate create a "Wake" - a<BR>
>disruption in space time that persists long enough, and over a large<BR>
>enough area, that other T-Plates will be affected.  Perhaps they<BR>
>get a performance boost if going in the same direction, and degraded<BR>
>performance if going a different direction?  Or perhaps, since that<BR>
>area of space is already stretched, another T-Plate crossing it<BR>
>will work poorly or not at all?<BR>
><BR>
>This could make space combat very interesting.  Put enough T-Plates<BR>
>together, and they could all slow down to a (relative) crawl...<BR>
>maybe even so slow that the combat can last a while.<BR>
><BR>
>Walt Smith<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2621<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2622</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, June 17 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2622<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Arbellatra<BR>
Re: Supernova - Film - Query<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
Thoroughly Laminated (was OT Personal Request)<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
Re: Merciful puns<BR>
re: Heaven & Earth Inclusion of Trade Routes<BR>
Re: Character Sketching Software (Was Burrito Files)<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
Re: Burrito Files<BR>
Re: system data format<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:13:17<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra<BR>
<BR>
At 09:12 PM 6/16/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>*Ahem* Sorry about that, but we have wandered far afield on this and I was<BR>
>hoping to get back to the lady herself.  Indeed, all this talk about<BR>
>Arbellatra has got me thinking about campaign ideas.  I was thinking one<BR>
>could do a very nice intrigue campaign set around the march to Capital. <BR>
>The PCs could be random individuals in Arbellatra's fleet (better if<BR>
>they're all from the same big ship, maybe the lead battleship /<BR>
>battlecarrier) chosen by her to act as her "eyes and ears" among the crew.<BR>
>After all, she's just decided she's marching on the core, there's bound to<BR>
>be _some_ dissent, even for so charismatic a figure.  And while she will<BR>
>_of course_ pull a Henry V at some point, she's too busy to do it all the<BR>
>time.  So...<BR>
<BR>
Pass on Henry for a moment, and think Napoleon.  A military genius who, at<BR>
a very young age, rallies her forces to win a war, turns around, and stops<BR>
another one!<BR>
><BR>
>A few questions:<BR>
><BR>
>-Arbellatra Alkhalikhoi (AA) had just won the 2FW in 620.  She made it to<BR>
>the core by 622.  What kind of speed does this require?  Does it imply<BR>
>high jump ships with the others left behind?<BR>
<BR>
I always imagine that the fleet was dispatched towards Core in mid-1119,<BR>
when victory was assured in the Marches.  She might even have launched the<BR>
fleet earlier with orders to "get more ships along the line of march," and<BR>
then joined them via courier in Corridor or Vland<BR>
<BR>
I pulled out a copy of Atlas, and did a little figuring.  I gave her fleet<BR>
jump-4, assuming she'd take the ships with the best legs, and tried to<BR>
route for zero-time refuels.. gas giants or naval bases.<BR>
<BR>
Based on my route, starting from Rhylanor, it would take her 35 jumps to<BR>
get to Vland.  Once there, the next big goal is Depot for that sector,<BR>
which is reached in four jumps.  Out of Depot, the run to Capital takes<BR>
another 15 jumps.  We have to assume three weeks per jump cycle *minimum*,<BR>
to account for refueling, refit, scouting and contact, and actual combat.<BR>
Based on this, my estimate of the time it took Arbellatra to reach the<BR>
scene of the fighting is 162 weeks, or 3.1 years.<BR>
<BR>
I have to wonder if Arbellatra really won the Second Frontier War, or if<BR>
her historians made it look like she did, much the same way we've been<BR>
taught in America that Eisenhower and Patton won WWII.<BR>
<BR>
>-What would be the composition of her fleet?<BR>
<BR>
At the beginning, everything she could scrap together that would do jump-4<BR>
or better.  After Vland and Depot, very, very big.  If she (and her<BR>
officers) were pushing the Regency angle from the moment they hit Vland<BR>
Sector, they would attract many of the previously neutral officers to their<BR>
side.<BR>
<BR>
>-What kind of resistance did she encounter along the way?  Would planets<BR>
>refuse to supply her ships?  Would she give them a choice?  Would other<BR>
>Imperial fleets, realizing what she was doing, try to intervene?<BR>
<BR>
One of the reasons why I routed her through gas giants. :)<BR>
<BR>
In Deneb and Corridor, she'd probably be pretty much ignored.  Once into<BR>
Lishun and Core, the actions of her fleet would probably dictate their<BR>
reception.  Naval bases that refuse to cooperate would be taken by force,<BR>
and stripped bare.  Factional warships would be given *one* chance to<BR>
surrender, and then destroyed.<BR>
<BR>
Arbellatra was smart.  She realized that she needed the people on her side,<BR>
and couldn't afford to be seen as yet another high-born Admiral grabbing<BR>
for the throne.  I've always seen her as the starman's Admiral; comfortable<BR>
down in the guts of the ship as well on the battle bridge.<BR>
<BR>
>-We know she encountered Gustus and the Central Fleet at Zhimaway in 622.<BR>
>What would the CF consist of after all the fighting of the previous years?<BR>
<BR>
Bailing wire and spit.  I doubt that battle lasted for more than six hours<BR>
at that point.<BR>
<BR>
>-How did she present the idea to her crew initially?  Was there dissent? <BR>
>How did she deal with it? <BR>
<BR>
I really don't think it was her idea.  It was probably thought up by the<BR>
Sector nobles and military commands who were fighting a war with very<BR>
little support form a government gone mad.  They probably picked a very<BR>
charismatic young Admiral, pumped her up as the hero of all time, and in a<BR>
very public ceremony charged her with restoring the throne.  I somehow<BR>
suspect that having her on the throne was not part of the plan.<BR>
<BR>
>-At the end of the 2FW she would have been just 33! [620-587] Isn't that a<BR>
>bit young?  How did she manage to become grand admiral at that age? <BR>
<BR>
In the military, death is wonderful career opportunity.  I see her as being<BR>
a wunderkind out of the academy, or well-born family, and marked as rising<BR>
star.  She probably was a Captain due to attrition in the ranks, and when<BR>
she was charged with this mission, *bumped* by Ducal fiat to the Rank of<BR>
Grand Admiral. <BR>
<BR>
>-How cool was her uniform and in what way did it radiate coolness? :-)<BR>
<BR>
Navy Dress uniform, IMTUASIGF: Black, single-breasted, high-collared<BR>
jacket, with Imperial Sunburst in Gold over her right breast. Her insignia<BR>
of rank (two gold bars) is on the epaulets.  Collar and cuffs are decorated<BR>
with scrambled eggs.  As a Grand Admiral of the Fleet, she carriers a<BR>
silver baton, about a foot long and decorated with a stylized map of her<BR>
area of responsibility.  The trousers are white, and tucked into black<BR>
calf-high boots.   Uniform trim for officers not of Flag Rank is in the<BR>
color of the department.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:38:40 EDT<BR>
From: RvKsword@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Supernova - Film - Query<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/15/00 6:10:41 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
dom@cybergoths.u-net.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Supernova is released in the UK tomorrow - film about a rescue ship <BR>
>  that misjumps.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Is it worth seeing?<BR>
<BR>
very worth it, not only was it a pretty damn cool movie on its own, it <BR>
inspired two miniseries that im planning for our current campaign.  Dont want <BR>
to spoil it for you with details, but its got some great plot elements, just <BR>
begging to be used <BR>
RvK<BR>
<BR>
v^v^v  "Oh god, aliens!!!  Oh well, I suppose you want to probe me now huh?"<BR>
"No human, we have reached the limits of what rectal probing can teach us."<BR>
"Oh that's a relief!!"<BR>
"Yes, now open wide and say ahhhh...."  v^v^v<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:20:25<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
At 05:28 PM 6/16/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>I just bought a Commodore-64 and want to transfer my files from my<BR>
>Commodore-64 to my 486.  Both have modems attached.  The C-64 is running<BR>
>CCGMS 17 and the 486 is running Telemate for DOS.<BR>
><BR>
>How can I get files from the Commodore to the 486?<BR>
<BR>
Two options.<BR>
<BR>
1. Pray for Divine Intervention.<BR>
<BR>
2. Sell your immortal soul.<BR>
<BR>
I used to own a C-64.  People, upon learning this, would give me *boxes* of<BR>
Commodore parts and software.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Egotist: a person more interested in himself than in me.<BR>
- -- Ambrose Bierce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:21:09 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: healyzh@aracnet.com<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
You just need to make an X1542 cable and connect the floppy drive to your<BR>
486.  Of course this means that you need a spare floppy cable to cut in<BR>
half, a DB25 plug, and a soldering iron.  If you do a web search on X1542<BR>
you'll hopefully turn something up.<BR>
<BR>
			Zane<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> At 05:28 PM 6/16/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> >I just bought a Commodore-64 and want to transfer my files from my<BR>
> >Commodore-64 to my 486.  Both have modems attached.  The C-64 is running<BR>
> >CCGMS 17 and the 486 is running Telemate for DOS.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >How can I get files from the Commodore to the 486?<BR>
> <BR>
> Two options.<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. Pray for Divine Intervention.<BR>
> <BR>
> 2. Sell your immortal soul.<BR>
> <BR>
> I used to own a C-64.  People, upon learning this, would give me *boxes* of<BR>
> Commodore parts and software.<BR>
> -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
> <BR>
> Egotist: a person more interested in himself than in me.<BR>
> -- Ambrose Bierce<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:40:05 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
Surely there must be a way...<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 8:20 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 05:28 PM 6/16/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> >I just bought a Commodore-64 and want to transfer my files from my<BR>
> >Commodore-64 to my 486.  Both have modems attached.  The C-64 is running<BR>
> >CCGMS 17 and the 486 is running Telemate for DOS.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >How can I get files from the Commodore to the 486?<BR>
><BR>
> Two options.<BR>
><BR>
> 1. Pray for Divine Intervention.<BR>
><BR>
> 2. Sell your immortal soul.<BR>
><BR>
> I used to own a C-64.  People, upon learning this, would give me *boxes*<BR>
of<BR>
> Commodore parts and software.<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
> Egotist: a person more interested in himself than in me.<BR>
> -- Ambrose Bierce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 01:15:02 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
I do have a spare cable..  What is a DB25 plug?  How does it hook to a 486?<BR>
And lastly, how are the files transferred?<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <healyzh@aracnet.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 12:21 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> You just need to make an X1542 cable and connect the floppy drive to your<BR>
> 486.  Of course this means that you need a spare floppy cable to cut in<BR>
> half, a DB25 plug, and a soldering iron.  If you do a web search on X1542<BR>
> you'll hopefully turn something up.<BR>
><BR>
> Zane<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > At 05:28 PM 6/16/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> > >I just bought a Commodore-64 and want to transfer my files from my<BR>
> > >Commodore-64 to my 486.  Both have modems attached.  The C-64 is<BR>
running<BR>
> > >CCGMS 17 and the 486 is running Telemate for DOS.<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >How can I get files from the Commodore to the 486?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Two options.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > 1. Pray for Divine Intervention.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > 2. Sell your immortal soul.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I used to own a C-64.  People, upon learning this, would give me *boxes*<BR>
of<BR>
> > Commodore parts and software.<BR>
> > --<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> > http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Egotist: a person more interested in himself than in me.<BR>
> > -- Ambrose Bierce<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 01:22:28 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: Thoroughly Laminated (was OT Personal Request)<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:52:33 -0600, Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I need to get in touch with someone who owns a heat-laminating press, of<BR>
> the sort used to print heat-activated transfers to t-shirts, mousepads, and<BR>
> other fabric surfaces. Someone who owns or works at a t-shirt shop would be<BR>
> ideal.<BR>
<BR>
> Please contact me via e-mail as this is not Travller-related, and use both<BR>
> lkw@io.com and gdwgames@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
I'm glad you were *clear* on that point. The mind boggles on just<BR>
how it could be *applied* to Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Captain: "What do you mean, you laminated the ship's cat!?!"<BR>
Crewman: "Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |          The pendant is gnarly. FNORD!           |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:32:31 -0700<BR>
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
>I do have a spare cable..  What is a DB25 plug?  How does it hook to a 486?<BR>
>And lastly, how are the files transferred?<BR>
<BR>
It plugs into the parallel port, and you use software on the PC to access<BR>
the floppy.  I can't seem to dig up any info, I'll ask on another mailing<BR>
list I'm on.  Someone there will know.<BR>
<BR>
			Zane<BR>
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |<BR>
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |<BR>
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |<BR>
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+<BR>
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |<BR>
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |<BR>
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:01:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
>I do have a spare cable..  What is a DB25 plug?  How does it hook to a 486?<BR>
>And lastly, how are the files transferred?<BR>
<BR>
OK, got the info http://c64.rulez.org/~sta/<BR>
<BR>
Part of the problem is I meant X1541 cable, not 42 :^)  What can I say,<BR>
it's been a while since I messed with one.<BR>
<BR>
		Zane<BR>
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |<BR>
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |<BR>
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |<BR>
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+<BR>
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |<BR>
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |<BR>
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:18:41 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Merciful puns<BR>
<BR>
At 17:15 -0400 16/6/00,  "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>Ah yes!<BR>
><BR>
>"...But we shall rearrange the Colours<BR>
>Of the Red, and the White, and the Blue.<BR>
><BR>
>Red is the Colour of the New Republic!<BR>
>Blue is the Colour of the Sea!<BR>
>White is the Colour of our Innocence,<BR>
>Not Surrender to your Mer-cy!"<BR>
<BR>
Should I feel miserable about this?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------<BR>
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion<BR>
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.<BR>
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -<BR>
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's<BR>
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:20:16 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Heaven & Earth Inclusion of Trade Routes<BR>
<BR>
At 17:15 -0400 16/6/00, "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net> wrote:<BR>
>Can anyone supply a set of rules or guidelines for generating Trade routes?<BR>
>I am planning to incorporate a set of rules which allows H&E to generate<BR>
>Trade Routes based on any rules available.<BR>
<BR>
Buy GT: Far Trader. The trade rules work directly with normal <BR>
Traveller provided you convert TTL to GTL.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 03:56:47 -0700<BR>
From: Justin Engler <jengler@u.washington.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Character Sketching Software (Was Burrito Files)<BR>
<BR>
    Well, I'm far from artistic, but if we're talking about a "Mr. Potato-head"<BR>
type program (Mr. Hiver-Head?), I'd be happy to lend my time and programming<BR>
skills, if someone else wants to do the artsy part.<BR>
<BR>
    On an almost related note, <shameless plug>GMSound, which allows easy use of<BR>
.wav files as props during a game session, is up to version 1.7 now.<BR>
http://redrival.com/rpgtools/  if anyone's intrested. </shameless plug><BR>
<BR>
    Justin<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Looking at the data files for Faces, it should be possible for someone of an<BR>
> artistic bent to create features for aliens that would allow the creation of<BR>
> alien composites.  Perhaps we could even build a freeware version of a<BR>
> compositor.<BR>
><BR>
> Anyone artistic out there interested in contributing?<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
><BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of James<BR>
> > Pearson<BR>
> > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 7:43 AM<BR>
> > To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > Subject: Re: Character Sketching Software (Was Burrito Files)<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Has anyone tried NBOS' Character Sketcher?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > A nice character sketcher would be nice for those of us who are<BR>
> > artistically deprived except for on a computer. But, aren't most of<BR>
> > them just collections of features and clothing?  Can any of them<BR>
> > draw aliens?  Full bodies?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Are there other suggestions for character sketches?<BR>
> ><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:21:33 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for your help<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 3:01 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >I do have a spare cable..  What is a DB25 plug?  How does it hook to a<BR>
486?<BR>
> >And lastly, how are the files transferred?<BR>
><BR>
> OK, got the info http://c64.rulez.org/~sta/<BR>
><BR>
> Part of the problem is I meant X1541 cable, not 42 :^)  What can I say,<BR>
> it's been a while since I messed with one.<BR>
><BR>
> Zane<BR>
> | Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |<BR>
> | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |<BR>
> | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |<BR>
> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+<BR>
> |     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |<BR>
> |                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |<BR>
> |                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:33:10 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
Robert Snyder wrote :-<BR>
> Basing speed limits on 6Gs I don't think is reasonable because a manuever drive equipped <BR>
> missile can go a lot faster than 6Gs.<BR>
<BR>
Oops, I thought most of those were HePLAR or EaPLAC or some other<BR>
reaction drive sporting an unwieldy abbreviated name.<BR>
<BR>
> The advantage of travelling at near-c speeds versus a foe that was significantly slower would <BR>
> be overwhelming--somewhat along the lines of jet fighters versus prop fighters.<BR>
In the first instance, I'd be really worried about relativity effects ;<BR>
I guess that the difference in manoeuvreability between space combatants<BR>
in these speed regimes would make that between jet planes vs. props<BR>
insignificant. But I could very well be very, very wrong.<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote :-<BR>
> I'm somewhat fond of thruster speed limits, because then you can<BR>
> assume that the T-plate has some form of static energy storage (which<BR>
> recharges and discharges based on speed relative to the 'ether') and<BR>
> evade conservation of energy problems.<BR>
Yep, saw your recent post on the subject and largely agree with it.<BR>
<BR>
> A speed limit of about 1% * sqrt(Gs) will make the limits unattainable<BR>
> for flat acceleration of less than 3 AU or acceleration/deceleration<BR>
> for more than 6 AU, which should cover most insystem travel.<BR>
> <BR>
This I like ; even T-plate missiles with 25G boost are sort of<BR>
constrained.<BR>
<BR>
Eris Reddoch wrote :-<BR>
> Make energy<BR>
> requirements depend on the mass and increase the energy needed as<BR>
> you accelerate, and put material top-end velocities down around 1%<BR>
> of c and let material/design improvements over several TL's increase<BR>
> that to only 2 or 3% of c, and you take out the the .1c rock, too!<BR>
Even better.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:34:18 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody wrote :-<BR>
> I was at the Indianapolis Children's Museum today (highly recommended to<BR>
> anyone in the area with children) and learned a few interesting tidbits<BR>
> about dolphins,<BR>
<BR>
Yep. <BR>
* More myoglobin and mitochondria in the muscles, giving larger tissue<BR>
oxygen stores and enhanced energy generation. This helps them hold their<BR>
breath longer, as the tissues take longer to become hypoxic.<BR>
* More allosteric effectors to alter the affinity of haemoglobin for<BR>
oxygen over a wide variety of conditions (not as extreme as some birds<BR>
which have several different haemoglobins in their blood to optimise<BR>
oxygen transport over a wide range of altitudes).<BR>
<BR>
> and are much more efficient in their use of<BR>
> oxygen as well, biologists are measuring lung capacity and work load and<BR>
> have noticed that even when straining to work hard they don't expend a great<BR>
> deal more energy.<BR>
If they are doing more work they must be expending more energy - the two<BR>
quantities are physically identical. <BR>
<BR>
I think that you meant to say that ventilation and cardiac output<BR>
doesn't rise as steeply with increased work, compared to other animals.<BR>
<BR>
So their cardiorespiratory system is more efficient, which is what we<BR>
would expect from a diving animal, as  diving is a strenuous activity.<BR>
<BR>
> And despite having perhaps one of the least designed<BR>
> bodies for speed compared to fish they are much faster than almost all fish<BR>
> and can swim 5 times faster than the fastest human swimmer.<BR>
This is true, but no-one is quite sure why. Hence the interest in<BR>
dolphin skin and boundary effects with the surrounding water.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav : A recent article in 'Science' describes the generation of<BR>
standing waves to reduce hydrodynamic drag. The authors believe that<BR>
mounting very small wave generators (piezoelectric or p-magnetic<BR>
'flappers') over the hull of a ship could significantly reduce drag<BR>
(30%).<BR>
<BR>
Low drag ship hulls from TTL 9+.<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: I am sure it won't be much longer before they really understand alot<BR>
> more about the dolphins and it could make for some interesting underwater or<BR>
> even perhaps low oxygen environment modification to humans.<BR>
Some background information :-<BR>
<BR>
One problem with low partial pressures of oxygen is that the pressure<BR>
gradient between the atmosphere and tissues is flatter.<BR>
<BR>
Oxygen transfer at each step (air to trachea to alveolus to blood to <BR>
tissue) has to be that much more efficient for the whole thing to work.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson and Leonard Erickson have mentioned 'flow-through' lung<BR>
systems such as that found in birds. These represent close to optimal<BR>
solutions to getting oxygen to an alveolus so haemoglobin can accept it.<BR>
<BR>
I've touched on ways to increase tissue oxygen stores and tweak the<BR>
efficiency of haemoglobin, above.<BR>
<BR>
Oxygen delivery is determined by :-<BR>
cardiac output X [(haemoglobin saturation X amount of haemoglobin X<BR>
affinity) + (partial pressure of oxygen X solubility coefficient of<BR>
plasma at body temperature)] <BR>
<BR>
Most of these values are pretty inflexible (over the span of minutes)<BR>
except cardiac output.<BR>
<BR>
The other problem is that humans have brains, hearts and kidneys which<BR>
have a large basal oxygen requirement :-<BR>
Whole body average - 0.4mL/100g tissue/minute<BR>
Brain - 3.3mL/100g tissue/minute<BR>
Heart - 9.7<BR>
Kidney - 6<BR>
<BR>
So we have problems with both oxygen supply and demand, and haven't even<BR>
thought about elimination of carbon dioxide.<BR>
<BR>
Depth adds the complications of barotrauma (bubble formation on<BR>
decompression, wall stress effects of high pressure gases on the lungs)<BR>
and the high-pressure nervous syndrome.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, I'm rambling.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 07:29:59 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Burrito Files<BR>
<BR>
Boy, that would be great.  I know Colin Michael (the <BR>
Downport.com guru) always loved the idea behind the Burrito <BR>
Files.<BR>
<BR>
Once upon a time I wrote a Perl script that generated<BR>
rough NPC visual characteristics and basic stats, but<BR>
it really didn't do what I wanted (I wanted NPCs who<BR>
were useful and memorable - they ended up looking<BR>
pretty cardboard).<BR>
<BR>
Alas, I'm in the Great And Sovereign State of Texas, <BR>
sneezing all the way (pollen and molds are bad here).<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Rob, I was perusing your 'burrito files' on downport and thought I could<BR>
> contribute a bunch of material.  Also, I have a wonderful little program<BR>
> called faces (for doing crime suspect composites) that I use for player/NPC<BR>
> pictures.  There are several examples on travellercentral.<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW, what is you locale, anyway?<BR>
> <BR>
> Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:07:45 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: system data format<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > You need all that data only if you're designing a simulation.<BR>
> > If you're designing a game, then you can abstract it quite a<BR>
> > bit.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not as much as you might think. You still need the orbital radius, a<BR>
> line of reference to measure the orbit positions from, and the position<BR>
> of each planet with respect to that line at some point in time. Along<BR>
> with similar info for each satellite. Oh yeah, you need the mass info<BR>
> too.<BR>
<BR>
That can be done the easy way or the hard way.  And you don't<BR>
need mass info unless you're doing a simulation.<BR>
<BR>
Look, if you've got an orbital radius then you have the orbital<BR>
period.  Map the orbital position to a degree offset from some <BR>
time frame in the remote past (say -500,000), calculate (once)<BR>
a funky, static, initial offset based on the system position, <BR>
orbit number, and world name, and you're done, because the <BR>
Imperial date itself maintains the orbital positions for the <BR>
entire universe.  I've done that, it works amazingly well.<BR>
Want the source?<BR>
<BR>
> And that's assuming the orbits are circular. Since Traveller has<BR>
> elliptical orbits, it gets messier.<BR>
<BR>
Just make them circular.  Elliptify them later, as an <BR>
enhancement.  Most worlds in the entire Imperium don't<BR>
rely on an elliptical orbit for the sake of special game<BR>
rules or local color; therefore, implement the easy <BR>
part now, worry about the hard part later when you have <BR>
something that runs.<BR>
<BR>
> More to the point, other than going *completely* abstract, I <BR>
> have no real choice *except* to get as complicated as I showed, <BR>
> because those are the values the formulas available require. I'm <BR>
> not *about* to try deriving them on my own. Even in simplified <BR>
> form.<BR>
<BR>
You always have a choice.<BR>
<BR>
So you see no choices but to be either very abstract or do <BR>
the overkill thing and risk never finishing.  No wonder <BR>
you're worried.  I'd suggest a format related to this:<BR>
<BR>
   #<BR>
   #   System description for Darrian<BR>
   #<BR>
   #   All of the following data are optional.<BR>
   #   Who knows what will happen if none of them<BR>
   #   are there?<BR>
   #<BR>
   <name>Darrian</name><BR>
   <sector>Spinward Marches</sector><BR>
   <hex>0627</hex><BR>
   <orbits>default</orbits>    <!-- circular and Sol-distances --><BR>
   <mass>default</mass>    <!-- planets are 1.0, GGs are gas, etc. --><BR>
   #<BR>
   #  Note to self: implement non-defaults later<BR>
   #  Note to self: there are better ways to use XML;<BR>
   #  however, quick-and-dirty has some short-term<BR>
   #  advantages.<BR>
   #<BR>
   <bulk-system-data><BR>
   Orbit            Name                  UPP <BR>
   Primary          Tarnis                G1 V<BR>
   1                Planetoid Belt        G000021-8<BR>
   2                (empty)               <BR>
   3                Darrian               A463955-G N<BR>
   4                Leryin                SGG<BR>
   4/7                Bebh                YS00001-F<BR>
   4/11               Telaret             Y300366-G  Rs1<BR>
   4/12               Zaladh              YS00127-F<BR>
   4/25               Iredh               G100000-F<BR>
   4/45               Zdos                YS00000-0<BR>
   4/55               Yimut               FS00400-F  Mi<BR>
   4/150              Lubhilzadh          HS00300-F  Mi<BR>
   5                Bidhes                SGG<BR>
   5/8                Poror               Y200317-G  Rs2<BR>
   5/55               Tildong             F300263-F M<BR>
   5/175              Zinadh              G300526-F<BR>
   6                (empty)<BR>
   7                (empty)<BR>
   8                (empty)<BR>
   9                (empty)<BR>
   10               Companion 1           M1 V1<BR>
   11               (empty)<BR>
   12               (empty)<BR>
   13               Panusam               LGG<BR>
   13/11              Nighis              Y213324-F<BR>
   13/40              Nelyegh             G300000-F<BR>
   13/45              Delung              G640266-F  Colony<BR>
   14               Renadh                SGG<BR>
   15               Pondam                SGG<BR>
<BR>
   Companion 1      Linines               M1 V1<BR>
   0                Asteroid Belt         G000000-F  AOS<BR>
   1                Ranyat                H100267-F<BR>
   2                Bangan                G100366-F<BR>
   </bulk-system-data><BR>
<BR>
And since I've snuck into XML here, do you have the <BR>
Traveller XML DTD?  It's out there, somewhere...<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2622<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, June 18 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2623<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
GTL -> TTL (was something else)<BR>
Re: Traveller-Culture list<BR>
Re: Arbellatra<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
XML (was: system data format)<BR>
Traveller XML on the Web...<BR>
OT:  Commodore 64<BR>
Re: GTL -> TTL (was something else)<BR>
Re: gender benders<BR>
Re: gender benders<BR>
Subscribing to Traveller-Culture (was: re: Vilani Women)<BR>
Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
Re: GTL -> TTL (was something else)<BR>
Re: Character Sketches<BR>
RE: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
RE: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
Re: Campaign Cartographer<BR>
Re: urine-propelled cats<BR>
Re: urine-propelled cats<BR>
RE: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 16:34:40 +0200<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: GTL -> TTL (was something else)<BR>
<BR>
Dom Mooney wrote:<BR>
> Buy GT: Far Trader. The trade rules work directly with normal<BR>
> Traveller provided you convert TTL to GTL.<BR>
<BR>
Could some kind soul post this conversion table, along with a conversion<BR>
of the starport types?<BR>
<BR>
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm       * Student at the university *<BR>
| jenry023@student.liu.se        | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |<BR>
| ICQ UIN: 3844745               | (computer science/tech.)  |<BR>
* http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se * 22 years old, male        *<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 16:38:05 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-Culture list<BR>
<BR>
Moin Jeff Zeitlin,<BR>
<BR>
> You can subscribe via email by sending a message to<BR>
> Traveller-Culture-subscribe@egroups.com.  Do this from the email<BR>
> account at which you want to receive the list mail.<BR>
> <BR>
> (I'd be interested in knowing just how you justified this to your<BR>
> prof...)<BR>
<BR>
  tell the prof, that one of the major german RPG (Midgard) developer<BR>
  has a 'doctor' degree, and wrote his thesis about RPG. You may want<BR>
  to reach "Dr. Rainer Nagel" by eMail as <rnagel@mail.uni-mainz.de><BR>
  beforehand.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 16:30:50 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra<BR>
<BR>
Moin Douglas E. Berry,<BR>
<BR>
> >-Arbellatra Alkhalikhoi (AA) had just won the 2FW in 620.  She made it to<BR>
> >the core by 622.  What kind of speed does this require?  Does it imply<BR>
> >high jump ships with the others left behind?<BR>
<BR>
  I think she aranged things in a very timely fashion and long beforehand.<BR>
<BR>
> Based on my route, starting from Rhylanor, it would take her 35 jumps to<BR>
> get to Vland.  Once there, the next big goal is Depot for that sector,<BR>
> which is reached in four jumps.  Out of Depot, the run to Capital takes<BR>
> another 15 jumps.  We have to assume three weeks per jump cycle *minimum*,<BR>
> to account for refueling, refit, scouting and contact, and actual combat.<BR>
> Based on this, my estimate of the time it took Arbellatra to reach the<BR>
> scene of the fighting is 162 weeks, or 3.1 years.<BR>
<BR>
  It is well known that she secretely supported the Lancians to revolt<BR>
  against Vland in 620. So she send parts of their fleets towards Vland<BR>
  in cover to aid Vland against Lancian rebellion.<BR>
<BR>
  This would reduce systems where she needed to fight to do refueling<BR>
  to those in the Core sector. So I think she had 39 fast jumps with<BR>
  fleet refueling within 3 days (390 days) and 15 jumps where she needed<BR>
  aprox 14 days of scouting and fighting between jumps. This will add to<BR>
  those two years, given in history.<BR>
<BR>
> I have to wonder if Arbellatra really won the Second Frontier War, or if<BR>
> her historians made it look like she did, much the same way we've been<BR>
> taught in America that Eisenhower and Patton won WWII.<BR>
<BR>
  she may perhaps not been at the frontline but controlled things from<BR>
  the centre. She perhaps knew, that the consulate wont try on a full<BR>
  featured war, so she send any ship with J3 or less towards the consolate<BR>
  border, and send anyship cabable of J4 towards Vland, where she knew<BR>
  that she prepared the Lancians uprising.<BR>
<BR>
> I really don't think it was her idea.  It was probably thought up by the<BR>
> Sector nobles and military commands who were fighting a war with very<BR>
> little support form a government gone mad.  They probably picked a very<BR>
> charismatic young Admiral, pumped her up as the hero of all time, and in a<BR>
> very public ceremony charged her with restoring the throne.  I somehow<BR>
> suspect that having her on the throne was not part of the plan.<BR>
<BR>
  I would think, becoming Empress, was her goal. She aranged that Lancians<BR>
  offered Aslans planets to collonize, if they did the wetwork as Nunjki.<BR>
  In combination with Lancian Silkku strikes (Lancians dislike open warfare,<BR>
  but prefer subterfuge and sabotage) Aslans Nunjki would draw any military<BR>
  attention from Vland and Dagudashaag. Leaving an open path to Core for<BR>
  Arabellatra.<BR>
<BR>
  I dont think of her a puppet of nobility, but as woman, who walked her<BR>
  own ways. Ways so uncommon that she finaly won not only by military<BR>
  strength but also in terms of hards and minds.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 15:15:48 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
Moin Robert Snyder,<BR>
<BR>
> Basing speed limits on 6Gs I don't think is reasonable because a manuever<BR>
> drive equipped missile can go a lot faster than 6Gs.<BR>
<BR>
  the complete problem only exist, if you asume CT/MT/T4 thruster plates. <BR>
<BR>
  TNE thrusters are limited by the reaction mass, witch is right.<BR>
<BR>
  Reactionless thrusters are like a perpetum mobile. So if you start thinking<BR>
  about 'speed limit for thursters' - do it right and throw reactionless<BR>
  CT/MT/T4 in the trashcan of where they belong.<BR>
<BR>
  The benefit would be a more interesting game, as fuel now becomes a<BR>
  major factor. I've seen many many ships losing a battle, because of<BR>
  a fuel leak, causing the ship to drift unable to maneuver.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:03:42 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: XML (was: system data format)<BR>
<BR>
Moin Rob Eaglestone,<BR>
<BR>
> So you see no choices but to be either very abstract or do <BR>
> the overkill thing and risk never finishing.  No wonder <BR>
> you're worried.  I'd suggest a format related to this:<BR>
<BR>
  the canon DGP sector format was :<BR>
<BR>
#-----------------------------------CUT HERE-----------------------------------#<BR>
GUSHEMEGE SECTOR<BR>
<BR>
The data in the sector text files is laid out in column format:<BR>
 <BR>
 1-14: Name<BR>
15-18: HexNbr<BR>
20-28: UWP<BR>
   31: Bases<BR>
33-47: Codes & Comments<BR>
   49: Zone<BR>
52-54: PBG<BR>
56-57: Allegiance<BR>
59-74: Stellar Data<BR>
 <BR>
....+....1....+....2....+....3....+....4....+....5....+....6....+....7....+....8<BR>
#-----------------------------------CUT HERE-----------------------------------#<BR>
<BR>
  This format is XML look like but invalid! The '#' is !NOT! a comment<BR>
  character in XML.<BR>
<BR>
>    #<BR>
>    #   System description for Darrian<BR>
>    #<BR>
>    #   All of the following data are optional.<BR>
>    #   Who knows what will happen if none of them<BR>
>    #   are there?<BR>
>    #<BR>
>    <name>Darrian</name><BR>
>    <sector>Spinward Marches</sector><BR>
>    <hex>0627</hex><BR>
>    <orbits>default</orbits>    <!-- circular and Sol-distances --><BR>
>    <mass>default</mass>    <!-- planets are 1.0, GGs are gas, etc. --><BR>
<BR>
> And since I've snuck into XML here, do you have the <BR>
> Traveller XML DTD?  It's out there, somewhere...<BR>
<BR>
  I was thinking about basing my $CPAN->{'Games::Traveller'} on XML,<BR>
  as I have profound knowledge on XML - see my .Sig - Could you give<BR>
  me the URL of the 'Traveller XML DTD' ?<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:16:56 -0700<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <downport@home.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller XML on the Web...<BR>
<BR>
Hey folks,<BR>
<BR>
I put the XML-related files from my archive onto the<BR>
web at:<BR>
<BR>
http://members.home.net/eaglestone/xml/<BR>
<BR>
As always, this stuff is a Work In Progress.<BR>
Also, it would be nice to have some characters<BR>
put into these formats to see if they're robust<BR>
enough.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:38:19 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: OT:  Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
Do you have a communications port on the commodore and on your 486?  The<BR>
easiest way is to use hyperterm on the 486 and some type of terminal<BR>
program on the commodore and simply send the files to your other machine<BR>
using a null modem cable.<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:03:56 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: GTL -> TTL (was something else)<BR>
<BR>
On 06/17/00 at 04:34 PM,  "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Dom Mooney wrote:<BR>
>> Buy GT: Far Trader. The trade rules work directly with normal<BR>
>> Traveller provided you convert TTL to GTL.<BR>
<BR>
>Could some kind soul post this conversion table, along with a conversion<BR>
>of the starport types?<BR>
<BR>
  TTL   GTL<BR>
   0    1-3<BR>
   1     4<BR>
   2     5<BR>
   3     5<BR>
   4     5<BR>
   5     6<BR>
   6     6<BR>
   7     7<BR>
   8     8<BR>
   9     9<BR>
  10     9<BR>
  11     9<BR>
  12    10<BR>
  13    10<BR>
  14    11<BR>
  15    12<BR>
  16    13<BR>
<BR>
 GURPS Traveller 2nd, p. 107<BR>
 <BR>
This is an approximation, because I don't think I recall seeing an<BR>
exact conversion, but this is pretty close.<BR>
<BR>
   Starports<BR>
 Trav     GURPS<BR>
   A        V<BR>
   B       IV<BR>
   C       III<BR>
   D       II<BR>
   E        I <BR>
   X        I<BR>
<BR>
Eris   <BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:16:25 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: gender benders<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin  wrote:<BR>
> That reminds me of a short story by Marco Vassi, which<BR>
> concerned a man who considered himself straight, but was<BR>
> tormented by attraction to and desire for other men. <BR>
> Eventually change his sex, thinking that if he were a woman<BR>
> it would be great to be attracted to men.  <BR>
> <BR>
> However, on her first night out as a woman, she found<BR>
> herself irrestibly drawn to a beautiful woman who was<BR>
> sitting by the bar making eyes at her.<BR>
<BR>
Does anybody else not see the problem here? ;)<BR>
<BR>
- -RB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:12:48 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: gender benders<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Russell Bornschlegel" <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:16 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: gender benders<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn Goffin  wrote:<BR>
> > That reminds me of a short story by Marco Vassi, which<BR>
> > concerned a man who considered himself straight, but was<BR>
> > tormented by attraction to and desire for other men. <BR>
> > Eventually change his sex, thinking that if he were a woman<BR>
> > it would be great to be attracted to men.  <BR>
> > <BR>
> > However, on her first night out as a woman, she found<BR>
> > herself irrestibly drawn to a beautiful woman who was<BR>
> > sitting by the bar making eyes at her.<BR>
> <BR>
> Does anybody else not see the problem here? ;)<BR>
> <BR>
> -RB<BR>
<BR>
As Eddie Izzard is wont to say "I'm a lesbian trapped in a mans body!"<BR>
<BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:14:48 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Subscribing to Traveller-Culture (was: re: Vilani Women)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:08:34 -0400 (EDT), "Todd Moody"<BR>
<talon@skyenet.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>how do I get on that list?<BR>
<BR>
The easy way is to send an email message to<BR>
Traveller-Culture-subscribe@egroups.com.  The hard way involves<BR>
paying a visit to http://www.egroups.com and going through the<BR>
exercise of creating a login and profile, finding the list, and<BR>
subscribing to it manually.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:14:53 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: inbreeding (OT)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:15:17 -0400 (EDT), "VonRammen"<BR>
<von_rammen@email.msn.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>There's an ObTrav coming: At what point does fully functional, reversible<BR>
>sex-change become possible? Looking at the MT charts, I guess no earlier<BR>
>than TL 11, no later than TL 13 (when organ cloning becomes available.) I've<BR>
>toyed with the idea of doing a society where it is commonplace for most<BR>
>people to have at least one sex change in their life...the sexes remain<BR>
>'polarized' but it is common to switch places. In fact, you're not<BR>
>considered a real 'person' until you do (some hold out for 'until you've<BR>
>*borne* a child,' but they're extremists.)<BR>
<BR>
I'll be damned if I can remember the title or author of the<BR>
story, but I _definitely_ recall reading a story where functional<BR>
reversible sex changes were common; the story in question<BR>
centered around the "issues" that happened when one of the two<BR>
main characters, a male who had never been female, was<BR>
essentially forced into confronting the "male side" of his wife,<BR>
who had never been male previously, but who allowed herself to<BR>
satisfy her curiosity.  And his own hangups about sex,<BR>
relationships, et cetera.  Some of the ... setup?  background?<BR>
... involved one of their children asking about a sex change, and<BR>
being told to wait until puberty; the context suggested that it<BR>
wasn't unknown - or "odd" - for even prepubescent children to<BR>
switch, and it was clear that nudity and "partial changes" (e.g.,<BR>
men with functional breasts, to nurse children) also wasn't<BR>
anything notable.<BR>
<BR>
(Jeff scribbles notes about another topic that would make good<BR>
fodder for Traveller-Culture...)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:01:45 -0500<BR>
From: Terry Mixon <tmixon@ghg.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GTL -> TTL (was something else)<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Could some kind soul post this conversion table, along with a conversion<BR>
> >of the starport types?<BR>
><BR>
> This is an approximation, because I don't think I recall seeing an<BR>
> exact conversion, but this is pretty close.<BR>
><BR>
>    Starports<BR>
>  Trav     GURPS<BR>
>    A        V<BR>
>    B       IV<BR>
>    C       III<BR>
>    D       II<BR>
>    E        I<BR>
>    X        I<BR>
<BR>
X is 0.<BR>
<BR>
Terry<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:34:10 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Character Sketches<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> <James Pearson><BR>
> Are there other suggestions for character sketches? <BR>
<BR>
> If you find a picture that looks pretty good for your character, but looks<BR>
> a little too "Sears Catalog" or whatever, you can always scan it in and<BR>
> "sketchify" it in Adobe Photoshop. <BR>
> This process creates something very much like a line drawing.  It will<BR>
> often take away the "catalogness" of images and allows easier fiddling by<BR>
> the artisitically challenged (such as myself). <BR>
<BR>
Isn't a photograph preferable to a sketch because it shows more<BR>
detail? Are you sketchifying it to _alter_ details or simply<BR>
to remove details?<BR>
<BR>
If catalog shots don't work for you how about photos scanned<BR>
from movies? If you pick a non star character actor you should<BR>
be fine. When I needed a picture of my D&D Wizard, Tien, for <BR>
instance I simply grabbed a picture of Fisher Stevens (as Eugene <BR>
the evil corporate hacker in Hackers) off the Net and printed <BR>
it out. Some of the other players may recognize the actor but <BR>
(unlike a picture of John Wayne or Julia Roberts) using a picture <BR>
of a character actor is not going to hurt your campaigns willing <BR>
suspension of disbelief.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:53:47 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@iname.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
At 11:51 AM 06/07/2000 +0100, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<snipage><BR>
<BR>
>Hmmm, how about a new BITS book: "101 Agencies"?<BR>
><BR>
>We already have the IN, IISS, IGS, MoC, MoJ, JSB, INI, SPA, ...<BR>
><BR>
>IMTU I have a Ministry of Transport which  (among  other  things)<BR>
>issues  space-worthiness  certificates  on   starships   ...   an<BR>
>annoying piece of paperwork for merchant prince wannabes to worry<BR>
>about.<BR>
Back in the hey day of the ISBA I created the Bureau of Starship Safety, <BR>
Heath, and Transit Standards (the indomitable B.S.S.H.T.S.) which was <BR>
fronted by the ever annoying Sir Ira Rimmer. It function in M:0 much as <BR>
Peter describes above. In addition they were supposed to be responsible for <BR>
price fixing the Cr2000 per stateroom life support fee. :-P If anyone is <BR>
curious they can click on the link in my signature and follow the link to <BR>
BSSHTS.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Sincerely,<BR>
<BR>
Brian A. Howard<BR>
<BR>
Beware the sound of a Babel fish,<BR>
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.<BR>
<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 19:17:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@iname.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Corporate Entities on the TML<BR>
<BR>
At 05:53 PM 06/17/2000 -0700, Brian A. Howard wrote:<BR>
>><snippage again><BR>
>Back in the hey day of the ISBA I created the Bureau of Starship Safety, <BR>
>Heath, and Transit Standards (the indomitable B.S.S.H.T.S.) which was <BR>
>fronted by the ever annoying Sir Ira Rimmer. It function in M:0 much as <BR>
>Peter describes above. In addition they were supposed to be responsible <BR>
>for price fixing the Cr2000 per stateroom life support fee. :-P If anyone <BR>
>is curious they can click on the link in my signature and follow the link <BR>
>to BSSHTS.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Sincerely,<BR>
><BR>
>Brian A. Howard<BR>
><BR>
>Beware the sound of a Babel fish,<BR>
>For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.<BR>
><BR>
>http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Whoops! My bad. I forgot that in the revision of the family web pages, The <BR>
link to BSSHTS was moved to someplace less the obvious. Sorry.<BR>
<BR>
Here is the link directly to BSSHTS:<BR>
<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/Traveller/BSSmain.htm<BR>
Brian A. Howard<BR>
<BR>
Aka: Baaduu Aakhiiran<BR>
IMTU @tc tm @t4 GT++ ru- ge+ 3i+ jt-- au+ st++ ls+ kk+ hi+ as++ va+ zh+ so- <BR>
vi da+ ?sy--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:48:28 -0300<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Campaign Cartographer<BR>
<BR>
At 05:22 PM 7/12/00, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>No you are right, however I have found some difficulty using the icons<BR>
>personally.  (Mainly my lack of skill, not a problem with the icons).  The<BR>
>icons and some ships are available from the profantasy site in the downloads<BR>
>section, BTW you can download a free CC2 viewer that lets you see the images<BR>
>in their full glory from the site as well, also allows you to get a good<BR>
>idea of what the software can do before running it yourself.<BR>
><BR>
>Peter<BR>
>http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
>peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
         Personally, I am using their entire suite of tools for my TNEC <BR>
game...  all the deckplans done on my Jane's page are done with CC2, the <BR>
world maps are done with the Fractal Terrains beta and so on...  excellent <BR>
software.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	"Reality Error in Progress....<BR>
			       ....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Cyberpunk:  	http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020<BR>
	Traveller:		http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller<BR>
	AD&D:		http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/adnd_eurania<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    ***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:41:38 EDT<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: urine-propelled cats<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin writes:<BR>
<BR>
> We'd better cool it now.  If we're not careful, they _will_<BR>
>  appear in ACQ 2d ed.<BR>
<BR>
With pod-mounted rapid-fire penguin-launchers?<BR>
<BR>
Doug G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:48:02 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: urine-propelled cats<BR>
<BR>
Damage169@cs.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn Goffin writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > We'd better cool it now.  If we're not careful, they _will_<BR>
> >  appear in ACQ 2d ed.<BR>
><BR>
> With pod-mounted rapid-fire penguin-launchers?<BR>
<BR>
And of course these all will be pelvis mounts......<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
When Spring comes back with rustling shade,<BR>
And apple blossoms fills the air,<BR>
I have a rendezvous with Death,<BR>
When spring brings back blue days and fair.<BR>
 Legionnaire Alan Seeger, KIA the Somme.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 13:33:24 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody writes:<BR>
>I was at the Indianapolis Children's Museum today (highly recommended to<BR>
>anyone in the area with children) and learned a few interesting tidbits<BR>
>about dolphins, they have enormous lung capacity (can hold their breathe for<BR>
>8 minutes without problem)<BR>
<BR>
	Just a question springing from my curiousity.  I have read that marine<BR>
	mammals have lungs that are no larger than those of terrestrial mammals,<BR>
	and that they don't even fill them completely before diving.  It is<BR>
	quite possible that dolphins are exceptions to this rule, but do you<BR>
	recall if they said at the museum specifically that they have large<BR>
	lung capacities or that they can just hold their breath for a long time.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>ObTrav: I am sure it won't be much longer before they really understand alot<BR>
>more about the dolphins and it could make for some interesting underwater or<BR>
>even perhaps low oxygen environment modification to humans.<BR>
<BR>
	Robert O'Connor has touched on some of the issues that would have to be<BR>
	addressed.  Modifying humans to this end would require complex and<BR>
	far-reaching alterations to our physiology.  This would require pretty<BR>
	high TL if the changes were implimented at conception, and very much<BR>
	higher to change an adult human.  Certainly not beyond the Ancients,<BR>
	though.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2623<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2624</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, June 19 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2624<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2591<BR>
(Trav)Historical Tech Levels<BR>
[www] 18 Jun 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
Re: Arbellatra<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2623<BR>
re: GTL -> TTL (was something else)<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re: Character Sketches<BR>
[BITS] Font Help for 101 Starships<BR>
RE: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
Corporate Profiles (quick question)<BR>
Re: Corporate Profiles (quick question)<BR>
Re: Arbellatra<BR>
Re: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
Re: Corporate Profiles (quick question)<BR>
Re: Advanced computing (was Re: Character Sketches)<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 18:45:21 +0100<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2591<BR>
<BR>
In message <00612.204655.1m1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, Leonard<BR>
Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes<BR>
>Or, rather often, finding out which wiring (or, <shudder> *plumbing*)<BR>
>connections some idiot in the yard got swapped. <BR>
><BR>
>Stuff like the shower in one cabin being hooked to the sewage line,<BR>
>instead of the cold water line..<BR>
<BR>
Where I work the ladies and gents toilets have 2 hot air driers each.<BR>
If all 4 run at once the fuse is blown.  Only happens when the loos are<BR>
used under heavy load (social functions, not in office hours).<BR>
Naturally the fuse isn't accessible to non-qualified staff and the duty<BR>
electrician has to be called out.  Putting a sign on one of them saying<BR>
"faulty - do not use" hasn't occurred to TPTB.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 13:39:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: (Trav)Historical Tech Levels<BR>
<BR>
OK, I've got a question for all the HIWG veterans out there:  When did the<BR>
3I develop TL-15?  Most of the standard ship designs (Free Trader, Far<BR>
Trader, Type S Scout, etc.) are all listed as manufactured to TL-15, so how<BR>
long have they been making them like that, and just how long has Imperial<BR>
technology been plateaued?  I ask because the campaign I have been working<BR>
on (well...off-and-on) for some time now is set just before the beginning of<BR>
the Solomani Rim War and I'd like to know what sorts of ships/equipment<BR>
would be commonly available.<BR>
	Thanks,<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - the half-baked ideas expressed above are my own.  Anyone<BR>
attempting to blame them on my employer is nuttier than I am.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 17:25:49 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: [www] 18 Jun 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller<BR>
Resource has posted its most recent update to<BR>
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and<BR>
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm.  <BR>
<BR>
This update features:<BR>
<BR>
 - Some fast work by the author has allowed us to resume offering<BR>
   101 Starships for download, and the shipyard designs therefrom<BR>
   have been restored to the Shipyard. Our thanks to Rob for his<BR>
   efforts. <BR>
<BR>
 - A recent newsgroup debate has prompted The Editor to write his<BR>
   own article on explaining why drop tanks aren't used as<BR>
   heavily as they might be. This is a Traveller Solution that<BR>
   can be found in Doing It My Way. <BR>
<BR>
Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at<BR>
Freelance Traveller.  Please write to<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com with any and all of them, as we are<BR>
in the process of reconfiguring the forms, and they may be<BR>
temporarily disabled.  Freelance Traveller depends on the good<BR>
will of Traveller fans both to visit our site and justify our<BR>
existence, and to write for us, making our existence possible.<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller is mirrored at http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz.<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller wishes to extend its thanks and appreciation<BR>
to The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com) and to<BR>
Executive Network Information Systems (http://www.execnet.com)<BR>
for hosting services. Without organizations willing to cooperate<BR>
with Freelance Traveller's ever-growing needs, we would be unable<BR>
to bring you the articles and other resources that have made<BR>
Freelance Traveller one of the premier Traveller sites on the <BR>
'net.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture <BR>
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in <BR>
this notice and in the referenced materials is not <BR>
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor<BR>
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource<BR>
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller<BR>
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 17:50:52 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra<BR>
<BR>
<kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
  It is well known that she secretely supported the Lancians to revolt<BR>
  against Vland in 620. So she send parts of their fleets towards Vland<BR>
  in cover to aid Vland against Lancian rebellion.<BR>
</kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
<BR>
This is interesting, I don't think I've run across this before.  Where did<BR>
you get it?  Or is IYTU?  It certainly adds an interesting element of<BR>
political maneuvering to AA's personality...<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 17:58:25 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2623<BR>
<BR>
<Peter Newman><BR>
Isn't a photograph preferable to a sketch because it shows more<BR>
detail? Are you sketchifying it to _alter_ details or simply<BR>
to remove details?<BR>
</PN><BR>
<BR>
The photograph is better if you can get a really good one, but for the<BR>
most part I find that there's always some little details I'd like to<BR>
change.  It takes quite a bit of artistic ability to say, add an Imperial<BR>
starburst effectively to a color photo.  Much less for a two-tone sketch.<BR>
Same can be said for minor adjustments to features, adding cross-hairs and<BR>
the like to make it look like a security camera photo, etc...<BR>
<BR>
Also, sketchifying photos can standardize them across different formats.<BR>
For instance, you may get very different "quality" photos from different<BR>
places.  If you want to make a set of NPCs (e.g.) the sketch method can<BR>
make the photos nicely similar.<BR>
<BR>
<PN><BR>
If catalog shots don't work for you how about photos scanned<BR>
from movies? If you pick a non star character actor you should<BR>
</PN><BR>
<BR>
Yup, this works too.  <BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 20:32:12 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: GTL -> TTL (was something else)<BR>
<BR>
At 13:33 -0400 18/6/00,  "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <BR>
<jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
>Could some kind soul post this conversion table, along with a conversion<BR>
>of the starport types?<BR>
<BR>
Starports in GURPS are I to V which corresponds E to A<BR>
<BR>
Need to dig out GT for the other information.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 20:38:36 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
At 13:33 -0400 18/6/00, Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de> wrote:<BR>
>  Reactionless thrusters are like a perpetum mobile. So if you start thinking<BR>
>  about 'speed limit for thursters' - do it right and throw reactionless<BR>
>  CT/MT/T4 in the trashcan of where they belong.<BR>
<BR>
And while you're at it lets throw the equally broken HePLAR away. <BR>
Say, why don't we base the game on ion drives? <not serious><BR>
<BR>
>  The benefit would be a more interesting game, as fuel now becomes a<BR>
>  major factor. I've seen many many ships losing a battle, because of<BR>
>  a fuel leak, causing the ship to drift unable to maneuver.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, it doens't add that much for me, but my games don't tend <BR>
to be big space battle jobs. I like T4 for the reason that HePLAR and <BR>
T-Plates co-exist. HePLAR makes a good booster at low TLs and T <BR>
plates make a good new drive. We have two different technologies <BR>
which make the conflict between systems using the different types <BR>
interesting.<BR>
<BR>
One idea we kicked around for a M0 setting(*) was two technologically <BR>
equal forces, except one has T Plates, the other HePLAR. Who would <BR>
have an advantage in such combat at TL12?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
(*) and may still use...<BR>
<BR>
- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------<BR>
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion<BR>
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.<BR>
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -<BR>
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's<BR>
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 21:11:44 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Character Sketches<BR>
<BR>
At 13:33 -0400 18/6/00, Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
>If catalog shots don't work for you how about photos scanned<BR>
>from movies? If you pick a non star character actor you should<BR>
>be fine. When I needed a picture of my D&D Wizard, Tien, for<BR>
>instance I simply grabbed a picture of Fisher Stevens (as Eugene<BR>
>the evil corporate hacker in Hackers) off the Net and printed<BR>
it out.<BR>
<BR>
Does Tien hunt heads at all? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I did something similar for my RQIII Lunar Soldier character - <BR>
scanned in Kenneth Branagh from Henry V and added runes onto it. <BR>
Surreal thing was that my fellow players assumed that I was the <BR>
person on the photo. (There is a copy of the photo at <BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar/ in the RQ page with the <BR>
stats if you're interested).<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"Once we actually mapped it for publication it seemed to shrink<BR>
in size and was no longer the immensity that would take months<BR>
to traverse. As things become known, they lose grandeur."<BR>
After Steve Perrin, Pavis & Big Rubble Reprint Epilogue<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:32:51 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [BITS] Font Help for 101 Starships<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
Rob Prior is working on a new edition of the freely available <BR>
Starship Design collection for GURPS Traveller, 101 Starships. He <BR>
would like to use an embedded font with the Solomani/Zhodani etc <BR>
logos, and was wondering if anyone on TML has the capacity to <BR>
actually build a font from artwork; specifically, we are looking for <BR>
the capability to create a TrueType or PostScript font. This would <BR>
preferably be the MacOS version of such a font, but we may be able to <BR>
convert a TrueType PC font. If anyone can help, please contact me.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Dom Mooney (BITS Webmaster)<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS, CORE and their respective logos are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 19:50:34 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
<BR>
At 1:33 PM -0400 6/18/00, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>Todd Moody writes:<BR>
>>I was at the Indianapolis Children's Museum today (highly recommended to<BR>
>>anyone in the area with children) and learned a few interesting tidbits<BR>
>>about dolphins, they have enormous lung capacity (can hold their breathe for<BR>
>>8 minutes without problem)<BR>
><BR>
>	Just a question springing from my curiousity.  I have read that marine<BR>
>	mammals have lungs that are no larger than those of <BR>
>terrestrial mammals,<BR>
>	and that they don't even fill them completely before diving.  It is<BR>
>	quite possible that dolphins are exceptions to this rule, but do you<BR>
>	recall if they said at the museum specifically that they have large<BR>
>	lung capacities or that they can just hold their breath for a <BR>
>long time.<BR>
<BR>
I recall reading that they store tremendous amounts of oxygen in their<BR>
muscles.  We store some, in the form of myoglobin, which is used when you<BR>
can't get oxygen to your muscles fast enough.  I believe that marine<BR>
mammals do something similar.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
<BR>
><snipped><BR>
>>ObTrav: I am sure it won't be much longer before they really understand alot<BR>
>>more about the dolphins and it could make for some interesting underwater or<BR>
>>even perhaps low oxygen environment modification to humans.<BR>
><BR>
>	Robert O'Connor has touched on some of the issues that would have to be<BR>
>	addressed.  Modifying humans to this end would require complex and<BR>
>	far-reaching alterations to our physiology.  This would require pretty<BR>
>	high TL if the changes were implimented at conception, and very much<BR>
>	higher to change an adult human.  Certainly not beyond the Ancients,<BR>
>	though.<BR>
<BR>
Already, some humans have more myoglobin enriched muscle (dark meat)<BR>
than others.  Increasing the amount would help a lot.  The biggest problem<BR>
for humans would be pressure.  Temperature would also be a problem in<BR>
cool water.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 20:18:09 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Corporate Profiles (quick question)<BR>
<BR>
Which term best describes the production of starships:  Manufacturing or<BR>
Construction?  This question has obvious implications for the UCP in<BR>
general, and AuricTech's UCP in particular.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 21:16:23 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Profiles (quick question)<BR>
<BR>
> Which term best describes the production of starships:  Manufacturing or<BR>
> Construction?  This question has obvious implications for the UCP in<BR>
> general, and AuricTech's UCP in particular.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
It would fall into manufacturing.  Though there is a fine line between <BR>
the two.  In starship terms a starship is manufactured because it <BR>
has a drive.  While a starbase without an independent drive is <BR>
constructed.<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: Thr Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:47:32 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra<BR>
<BR>
> > From: Charles Collin <BR>
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <BR>
> >A few questions:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >-Arbellatra Alkhalikhoi (AA) had just won the 2FW in 620.  She made it<BR>
> >to the core by 622.  What kind of speed does this require?  Does it<BR>
> >imply high jump ships with the others left behind?<BR>
> <BR>
> I always imagine that the fleet was dispatched towards Core in mid-1119,<BR>
> when victory was assured in the Marches.  She might even have launched<BR>
> the fleet earlier with orders to "get more ships along the line of<BR>
> march," and then joined them via courier in Corridor or Vland<BR>
> <BR>
> I pulled out a copy of Atlas, and did a little figuring.  I gave her<BR>
> fleet jump-4, assuming she'd take the ships with the best legs, and tried<BR>
> to route for zero-time refuels.. gas giants or naval bases.<BR>
> <BR>
> Based on my route, starting from Rhylanor, it would take her 35 jumps to<BR>
> get to Vland.  Once there, the next big goal is Depot for that sector,<BR>
> which is reached in four jumps.  Out of Depot, the run to Capital takes<BR>
> another 15 jumps.  We have to assume three weeks per jump cycle<BR>
> *minimum*, to account for refueling, refit, scouting and contact, and<BR>
> actual combat. Based on this, my estimate of the time it took Arbellatra<BR>
> to reach the scene of the fighting is 162 weeks, or 3.1 years.<BR>
<BR>
It's quite likely that her fleet would have been split into a number of<BR>
task forces, so there wouldn't actually be a single route followed.<BR>
<BR>
Do we actually know where (which system) the decisive battle was?<BR>
<BR>
> I have to wonder if Arbellatra really won the Second Frontier War, or if<BR>
> her historians made it look like she did, much the same way we've been<BR>
> taught in America that Eisenhower and Patton won WWII.<BR>
<BR>
There is some stuff in Behind The Claw, I think, that gives some detail<BR>
about what actually happened during the war.  Besides, we all know it was<BR>
*Soegz* who won the war for her.<BR>
<BR>
> >-What would be the composition of her fleet?<BR>
> <BR>
> At the beginning, everything she could scrap together that would do<BR>
> jump-4 or better.  After Vland and Depot, very, very big.  If she (and<BR>
> her officers) were pushing the Regency angle from the moment they hit<BR>
> Vland Sector, they would attract many of the previously neutral officers<BR>
> to their side.<BR>
<BR>
On paper, her original fleet would have been the Corridor Fleet.  In<BR>
reality, it would be packed with high jump (J4) ships with crews of proven<BR>
loyalty.  That suggests that there would have been lots of Cruisers, and<BR>
comparatively few Battleships.  There are mentions of new ships having been<BR>
built during the 2FW, and it's quite likely that these might have been<BR>
present.  Maybe they might have been Battle Rider squadrons, with J4<BR>
tenders.<BR>
<BR>
But, unfortunately, I can't see many of the necessary support vessels being<BR>
J4 capable.  What would she have had in terms of troop carriers, cargo<BR>
haulers, tankers, and so on?<BR>
<BR>
Once she gets control of the Vland fleet, her forces would become more<BR>
orthodox.<BR>
<BR>
> >-What kind of resistance did she encounter along the way?  Would planets<BR>
> >refuse to supply her ships?  Would she give them a choice?  Would other<BR>
> >Imperial fleets, realizing what she was doing, try to intervene?<BR>
> <BR>
> One of the reasons why I routed her through gas giants. :)<BR>
> <BR>
> In Deneb and Corridor, she'd probably be pretty much ignored.  Once into<BR>
> Lishun and Core, the actions of her fleet would probably dictate their<BR>
> reception.  Naval bases that refuse to cooperate would be taken by force,<BR>
> and stripped bare.  Factional warships would be given *one* chance to<BR>
> surrender, and then destroyed.<BR>
<BR>
Basically I don't see her meeting any resistance until she entered Vland. <BR>
Before then she wasn't openly in revolt, and her fleets were the legitimate<BR>
fleets in the area.<BR>
<BR>
The tricky part would be what happens in Vland - if she could get hold of<BR>
the Vland fleet quickly and easily, the rest is a fairly orthodox approach<BR>
to Capital.<BR>
<BR>
> >-We know she encountered Gustus and the Central Fleet at Zhimaway in<BR>
> > 622. What would the CF consist of after all the fighting of the<BR>
> > previous years?<BR>
> <BR>
> Bailing wire and spit.  I doubt that battle lasted for more than six<BR>
> hours at that point.<BR>
<BR>
The chances are that Gustus had been seriously out maneuvered strategically<BR>
too, so that his fleets were smaller than they could have been, and with<BR>
poor morale.<BR>
<BR>
> >-How did she present the idea to her crew initially?  Was there dissent?<BR>
> >How did she deal with it? <BR>
> <BR>
> I really don't think it was her idea.  It was probably thought up by the<BR>
> Sector nobles and military commands who were fighting a war with very<BR>
> little support form a government gone mad.  They probably picked a very<BR>
> charismatic young Admiral, pumped her up as the hero of all time, and in<BR>
> a very public ceremony charged her with restoring the throne.  I somehow<BR>
> suspect that having her on the throne was not part of the plan.<BR>
<BR>
After so long a sequence of Barracks Emperors, planning on not having her<BR>
on the throne might have been a little foolish.<BR>
<BR>
How did she present the idea?  As a case of restoring order - but only<BR>
after an extensive propaganda campaign.  That's the good thing about<BR>
starships that spend most of their time in jump - they are perfect<BR>
locations for brainwashing.<BR>
<BR>
Basically you would send your fleet "back home to Corridor", and by the<BR>
time it got there, your crews would be champing at the bit to bring sense<BR>
to the Imperium, and kick that evil Gustus back where he belongs.  Then you<BR>
suddenly pop up out of your Courier, and your agents provocateur start<BR>
calling on you to lead the fleet to Capital.<BR>
<BR>
> >-At the end of the 2FW she would have been just 33! [620-587] Isn't that<BR>
> >a bit young?  How did she manage to become grand admiral at that age? <BR>
> <BR>
> In the military, death is wonderful career opportunity.  I see her as<BR>
> being a wunderkind out of the academy, or well-born family, and marked as<BR>
> rising star.  She probably was a Captain due to attrition in the ranks,<BR>
> and when she was charged with this mission, *bumped* by Ducal fiat to the<BR>
> Rank of Grand Admiral. <BR>
<BR>
I would agree that there would have been a reasonably high level of<BR>
attrition in the senior ranks.  In particular, many of the officers from<BR>
the Marches would have left with Olav, while others may have left to<BR>
support other claimants at various times.  The real cause of this attrition<BR>
would have been less subtle though:  virtually every new Emperor would have<BR>
attempted to purge "disloyal" (to them) officers, while the article on the<BR>
4518th Lift Infantry that appeared in JTAS #9 (and Spinward Marches<BR>
Campaign) made it clear that violent factionalism existed within the<BR>
Marches.<BR>
<BR>
I think it's pretty certain that Arbellatra would have come from a<BR>
well-born family, and was probably a recognised rising star as well.  She<BR>
may have actually been a Staff officer - either an aide to a senior<BR>
officer, or perhaps a member of a strategic planning team. <BR>
<BR>
Anyway, her rise would have been heavily influenced by politics.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 21:38:15 -0500<BR>
From: "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Date: Sunday, June 18, 2000 12:38 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Todd Moody writes:<BR>
>>I was at the Indianapolis Children's Museum today (highly recommended to<BR>
>>anyone in the area with children) and learned a few interesting tidbits<BR>
>>about dolphins, they have enormous lung capacity (can hold their breathe<BR>
for<BR>
>>8 minutes without problem)<BR>
><BR>
> Just a question springing from my curiousity.  I have read that marine<BR>
> mammals have lungs that are no larger than those of terrestrial mammals,<BR>
> and that they don't even fill them completely before diving.  It is<BR>
> quite possible that dolphins are exceptions to this rule, but do you<BR>
> recall if they said at the museum specifically that they have large<BR>
> lung capacities or that they can just hold their breath for a long time.<BR>
><BR>
Unfortunately they didn't specify.  One other thing that was interesting<BR>
though in reference to getting rid of CO2, the dolphins exhale at over 100<BR>
mph through the blow hole, getting rid of lots REAL fast.  No mention of<BR>
inhalation rates.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 22:42:38 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Profiles (quick question)<BR>
<BR>
At 9:16 PM -0500 6/18/00, tim@premier.net wrote:<BR>
>>  Which term best describes the production of starships:  Manufacturing or<BR>
>>  Construction?  This question has obvious implications for the UCP in<BR>
>>  general, and AuricTech's UCP in particular.<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
>It would fall into manufacturing.  Though there is a fine line between<BR>
>the two.  In starship terms a starship is manufactured because it<BR>
>has a drive.  While a starbase without an independent drive is<BR>
>constructed.<BR>
<BR>
I would say it's a very fuzzy line.  I was recently in a shipyard<BR>
where a large semi-submersible drilling rig was being built.  You<BR>
can look up its size at www.rbfalcon.com.  The one I was on was<BR>
the Deepwater Horizon.  It has a crew of 132 who live on board.  It<BR>
generates 42 MW to power 40 MW of thrusters to keep it in position.<BR>
It is something like 300 feet square and displaces 36,000 tons of<BR>
water with the ballast tanks empty.  It's like building a huge<BR>
moving building.  Vessels like this blur the line between manufacturing<BR>
and construction.  Many of the pieces are fabricated and manufactured<BR>
separately, but it's built up like a building.  The living quarters<BR>
are even framed like an office building with utilities and everything.<BR>
<BR>
The line between "construction" and "manufacturing" is not very<BR>
fine.  You would have thought you were in a building if you were<BR>
inside the Horizon.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:03:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Advanced computing (was Re: Character Sketches)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> <Technobabble>Of course, if you're a programming type, you can implement<BR>
>> any sort of edge-detection algorithm, such as a 2D Fourier Transform<BR>
>> passed through a Butterworth filter and then thresholded. </Technobabble><BR>
><BR>
> <ExtremeTechnobabble><BR>
> Of course you can do it even faster and more elegantly using lenses and<BR>
> opaque stops. A lens produces a 2D Fourier Transform of the input image in<BR>
> its focal plane, so you can filter your signal by putting an opaque pattern<BR>
> in the focal plane. Another lens will do another transform, which results in<BR>
> your original signal, but filtered (and off by a constant, since you have to<BR>
> do two forward transforms rather than a forward followed by an inverse).<BR>
<BR>
If the pattern is a hologram of something, the final image is a plot of<BR>
how closely any part of the original image resembles a view FROM ANY<BR>
ANGLE of the object in the hologram. Bright spots are close matches.<BR>
the closer the match, the brighter the spot.<BR>
<BR>
So use a hologram of an enemy tank, and they'll stand out like a sore<BR>
thumb once you process the image, even if they are painted in camo<BR>
patterns. at best, any attempt to break up the outline will make the<BR>
spot somewhat less bright. As I understand it, adding enough<BR>
"vegetation" to get the tank to not be "suspicious" would require so<BR>
much that it'd interfere with operating the tank (even a grav tank).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:13:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Basing speed limits on 6Gs I don't think is reasonable because a<BR>
> manuever drive equipped missile can go a lot faster than 6Gs.<BR>
<BR>
But no way can it do it as *long* as a ship can. Besides, we *aren't<BR>
basing it 6g, we're basing it on the max velocity that is "safe" for a<BR>
given time. (ie longer you stay at high speed the less safe it is).<BR>
<BR>
> Additionally, as a Bussard Ramjet can use an electromagnetic field to<BR>
> scoop up hydrogen for fuel what is to prevent ships/missiles from<BR>
> using the concept in reverse.  That is, using an electromagnetic field<BR>
> to push hydrogen/dust out of the way.<BR>
<BR>
The fact that *first* you have to *ionize* the gas to get it to react<BR>
to the field AT ALL. And you have to not merely vaporize the dust, but<BR>
turn it into ionized plasma. <BR>
<BR>
This takes a *lot* of power. Next, you have to generate a magnetic<BR>
field strong enough to move this stuff out of the way before you reach<BR>
it. That takes even *more* power.<BR>
<BR>
Now consider that this stuff being deflected acts as a *drag* on the<BR>
missile. Meaning that you need *more* power to keep the missile moving,<BR>
much less accelerating. <BR>
<BR>
In fact, Bussard Ramjets are no longer considered even a<BR>
*theoretically* useful proulsion system. You see, it turns out that the<BR>
velocity at which the abosolute *maximum* power you can get from fusing<BR>
the scooped up hydrogen equals the drag from the scoop is at most a few<BR>
percent of c at anything resembling real densities of interstellar gas.<BR>
And there are far *simpler* methods of reaching those velocities.<BR>
<BR>
The one thing it would be useful for is acting as the equivalent of a<BR>
"drag chute" to slow any sort of vessel travelling at large factions of<BR>
C down to more reasonable velocities.<BR>
<BR>
> While there is probably a speed limit it will be much higher than 4 % of c.<BR>
<BR>
Again, that limit has to do with both radiation hazard (at those<BR>
velocities "gas" atoms might as well be cosmic rays or solare flare<BR>
particle radiation), and the sheer heating and erosive effect of the<BR>
dust in interplanetary space. <BR>
<BR>
Also, keep in mind that 4% of C is pretty close to where relativistic<BR>
effects start to get noticeable with *ordinary* instruments. That's a<BR>
tau factor of .999199679. For example, an hour on the ship is about 3<BR>
seconds shorter than on one of the local planets. <BR>
<BR>
%c	tau<BR>
- ---	----------<BR>
4%	.999199679<BR>
5%	.998749217<BR>
6%	.998198377<BR>
7%	.997546991<BR>
8%	.996794863<BR>
9%	.995941765<BR>
10%	.994987437<BR>
15%	.988685996<BR>
20%	.979795897<BR>
25%	.968245836<BR>
30%	.953939201<BR>
35%	.936749699<BR>
40%	.916515139<BR>
45%	.893028555<BR>
50%	.866025403<BR>
55%	.835164654<BR>
60%	.800000000 (exact)<BR>
65%	.759934207<BR>
70%	.714142842<BR>
75%	.661437827<BR>
80%	.600000000 (exact)<BR>
85%	.526782687<BR>
90%	.435889894<BR>
95%	.312249899<BR>
<BR>
How hard it is to *get* to a given velocity is roughly as hard as the<BR>
*inverse* of the tau factor. The details get messy, and work out much<BR>
worse. But in essense, as the speed goes up, the effort required to<BR>
accelerate the ship goes up as if its mass was the "at rest" mass,<BR>
divided by the tau factor (eg at 60% of c, the ship acts like it weighs<BR>
1.25 times as much.<BR>
<BR>
Or you can think of it as the thrusters acting as if they were only<BR>
putting out 80% as much thrust for the same energy input, but still<BR>
have the same max energy input limit.<BR>
<BR>
> I am in favor of increasing the tech level for manuever drives to TL 16.<BR>
<BR>
Ahem. <BR>
<BR>
"Manuever drive" is any drive that propels the ship in normal space (ie<BR>
all drives that aren't "jump" drives). *Including* ordinary rockets.<BR>
<BR>
I believe what you mean is "thruster plates". <BR>
<BR>
> For ships/missiles that are travelling at a high fraction of c, can<BR>
> you even hit the things ?  At 1% of the speed of light you will cover<BR>
> a BL hex (30,000 km) in 10 seconds !<BR>
<BR>
It depends on how fast they are travelling relative to *you*. And in<BR>
any case, lasers can easily track things faster than that. <BR>
<BR>
We were talking about the problems in merely moving thru space that<BR>
fast relative to the "local medium" (ie the average velocity of the gas<BR>
and dust in the area). <BR>
<BR>
> During the period between the Great War and World War II, there was a<BR>
> contraversy in aviation circles regarding which was more important:<BR>
> agility or speed.  World War II showed conclusively that speed was<BR>
> way more important.<BR>
<BR>
Not once you have weapons that travel at or very close to the speed of<BR>
light (ie lasers and PAWs). How *fast* you are going doesn't matter one<BR>
bit. All that matters is how far away you are and how fast you can<BR>
accelerate. <BR>
<BR>
Say you are 1 light second away, that's most of the way from the Earth<BR>
to the Moon. 300,000 km, 10 hexes, 186,282 miles.<BR>
<BR>
A radar pulse hits you, and bounces back. A second later, it returns to<BR>
the ship that sent it out, The computer takes maybe a microsecond to<BR>
calculate your range and angle.  It takes a fraction of a second to<BR>
slew the aiming mirror for the laser. A second after that, the laser<BR>
pulse reaches the point you were at when the radar pulse bounced off<BR>
you. Total time between when the radar pulse bounced and the laser<BR>
arrived? Close enough to two seconds to not matter.<BR>
<BR>
So, unless you just emerged from jump, they were tracking you *before*<BR>
firing. So, they know your tranverse velocity (ie your speed at right<BR>
angles to the line between you and the firing ship). And the computer<BR>
can account for that "perfectly", that is, if you don't *change*<BR>
velocity (ie accelerate) it'll nail you dead center.<BR>
<BR>
So, your velocity doesn't matter, only how much you can *change* it by,<BR>
or rather, how much distance you can put between the place you'd be if<BR>
you coasted and the place you'll actually be when the beam arrives.<BR>
<BR>
And it doesn't matter *which* direction you accelerate in, as the<BR>
max distance you can travel is the same (measured from the point you'd<BR>
be at if you *didn't* accelerate)<BR>
<BR>
That's determined by the simple formula:<BR>
<BR>
D = .5 * A * T^2<BR>
D = distance in meters<BR>
A = acceleration in meters per second per second<BR>
T = time in seconds.<BR>
<BR>
1 g is 9.81 m/s^2, we usually round it to 10 in Traveller. <BR>
<BR>
So, lets say your ship can accelerate at 6g. And again there's that<BR>
whole 2 *seconds* between the aiming pulse and the laser pulse.<BR>
<BR>
D = .5 * 60 * 2^2<BR>
D = 30 * 4<BR>
D = 120<BR>
<BR>
So, that means that at *10* hexes, you can move a 6g ship a whole 120<BR>
meters between the time a sensor takes your position and when the shot<BR>
aimed based on that sensor reading arrives.<BR>
<BR>
For small ship, that's an adequate margin of safety. For a big ship,<BR>
the pulse will just hit 120 meters off center. <BR>
<BR>
Now let's look at the results at lower accelerations.<BR>
<BR>
1g	20 meters<BR>
2g	40 meters<BR>
3g	60 meters<BR>
4g	80 meters<BR>
5g	100 meters<BR>
<BR>
Note that at low acceleration, those figures are *way* to close to the<BR>
size of the ship. And then consider that it's unlikely they'll fire<BR>
*one* laser pulse. Try more like a few dozen scattered about the circle<BR>
that defines your max possible distance from the last sensor reading.<BR>
<BR>
> In traveller I expect that space combat will be fought almost exclusively at <BR>
> near-c speeds.  <BR>
<BR>
Hardly. At 6g (and ignoring relativity) it'll take a ship almost 58<BR>
*days* to reach c. It'll take almost 14 hours to reach a mere 1% of c.<BR>
<BR>
And in the first case, the ship will cover 5000 AU in the process.<BR>
That's about 1/40th of a parsec, or about 1/13th of a light year.<BR>
<BR>
In the second case, it "only" travels half an AU (about the distance<BR>
from Earth to Mars when they are closest).<BR>
<BR>
> The advantage of travelling at near-c speeds versus a foe that was<BR>
> significantly slower would be overwhelming--somewhat along the lines<BR>
> of jet fighters versus prop fighters.<BR>
<BR>
Nope, there's *no* advantage whatsoever. Because if you maintain a<BR>
constant velocity, you can be hit dead center by a laser or PAW at<BR>
*any* range.<BR>
<BR>
And as I showed above, the distance you can evade by depends on range,<BR>
and on your acceleration, *nothing* else.<BR>
<BR>
Space combat is *not* aerial combat. And lasers and PAWs are *not*<BR>
machine guns. Missiles are considerably different as well. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2624<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2625</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, June 19 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2625<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Privateers<BR>
Re: (Trav)Historical Tech Levels<BR>
Re: (Trav) Historical Tech Levels<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
Re: Society and sex-change (WAS: Inbreeding)<BR>
Re: system data format<BR>
Re: gender benders<BR>
Re: OT:  Commodore 64<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
RE: (Trav)Historical Tech Levels<BR>
RE: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
Wanted: decent subject line!<BR>
Re: Arbellatra<BR>
[OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 23:32:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Privateers<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ship of War, That His Majesty will consider him & them as fully Entitled<BR>
> to an having a just claim to all vessels & property of every kind which he<BR>
> or they shall make prize of from all or any of His Majesty's Enemies,<BR>
> provided the same shall have been first condemned as Lawful prize to His<BR>
> Majesty In His Majestys High Court of Admiralty or in some of His<BR>
> Majesty's Courts of Vice Admiralty having lawful authority to take<BR>
> Cognizance of the same.<BR>
><BR>
>     Given under my Hand & Seal of Arms at Halifax this 6th day of Nov.<BR>
> 1799 in the 39th Year of His Majesty's Reign <BR>
><BR>
>     By His Excellency's Command<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Seems like a long-winded way to say "Go get'em boys, what you take is<BR>
> yours!" :-)<BR>
<BR>
That's the point, it *doesn't* say that. It specifies who they can and<BR>
can't "get. It also requires them to get the prizes taken "condemned"<BR>
by an Admiralty court. Which means that the *Crown* get's a fair sized<BR>
chunk of the value of the prize.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 01:49:57 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: (Trav)Historical Tech Levels<BR>
<BR>
"Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> OK, I've got a question for all the HIWG veterans out there:  When did<BR>
> the 3I develop TL-15?  Most of the standard ship designs (Free Trader,<BR>
> Far Trader, Type S Scout, etc.) are all listed as manufactured to<BR>
> TL-15, so how long have they been making them like that, and just how<BR>
> long has Imperial technology been plateaued?  I ask because the<BR>
> campaign I have been working on (well...off-and-on) for some time now<BR>
> is set just before the beginning of the Solomani Rim War and I'd like<BR>
> to know what sorts of ships/equipment would be commonly available.<BR>
>  Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Third Imperium<BR>
<BR>
Imperial Date	TL	Comments<BR>
- -1776			10	Syleans maintain minimal interstellar trade<BR>
- -650			11	Sylean Federation Esablished<BR>
- -150			12	Robot manufacturing reestablished<BR>
300				13	Vargr campaigns take place (210-348)<BR>
700				14	Xboat system built (624-718)<BR>
1000			15 Solomani Rim War taking place (998-1002)<BR>
<BR>
[[Source Megatraveller Referee's Companion]]<BR>
<BR>
So, TL 15 ships have been around a good long time, and given that <BR>
most ships last less than a century, especially those seeing hard <BR>
regular use (like Free Traders and Type S Scouts) there will be <BR>
plenty of TL 15 ships out there.  Of course there will also be a wide <BR>
range of these ships built on lower TL worlds.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
	<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:45:09 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: (Trav) Historical Tech Levels<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
> Subject: (Trav)Historical Tech Levels<BR>
><BR>
> OK, I've got a question for all the HIWG veterans out there:  When did the<BR>
> 3I develop TL-15?  Most of the standard ship designs (Free Trader, Far<BR>
> Trader, Type S Scout, etc.) are all listed as manufactured to TL-15, so<BR>
how<BR>
> long have they been making them like that, and just how long has Imperial<BR>
> technology been plateaued?  I ask because the campaign I have been working<BR>
> on (well...off-and-on) for some time now is set just before the beginning<BR>
of<BR>
> the Solomani Rim War and I'd like to know what sorts of ships/equipment<BR>
> would be commonly available.<BR>
> Thanks,<BR>
> Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
<BR>
I'm strongly of the opinion that most commercial; shipping will be at<BR>
TL11-12, like it has been for most of the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
The reason for this is that while a TL 15 battleship is much better than a<BR>
TL12 battleship, a TL15 jump-3 freighter is only a little bit better than a<BR>
TL12 jump-3 freighter.<BR>
<BR>
Thus, TL15 starports will be building military ships, whilst TL12 starports<BR>
will be building civilian ships.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 23:37:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I just bought a Commodore-64 and want to transfer my files from my<BR>
> Commodore-64 to my 486.  Both have modems attached.  The C-64 is running<BR>
> CCGMS 17 and the 486 is running Telemate for DOS.<BR>
><BR>
> How can I get files from the Commodore to the 486?<BR>
<BR>
Dig up a copy of Kermit for the C-64. If you can't find one, I'll ask a<BR>
couple of friends who still have their C-64s if they can make up a<BR>
Kermit disk.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 23:40:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 05:28 PM 6/16/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>>I just bought a Commodore-64 and want to transfer my files from my<BR>
>>Commodore-64 to my 486.  Both have modems attached.  The C-64 is running<BR>
>>CCGMS 17 and the 486 is running Telemate for DOS.<BR>
>><BR>
>>How can I get files from the Commodore to the 486?<BR>
><BR>
> Two options.<BR>
><BR>
> 1. Pray for Divine Intervention.<BR>
><BR>
> 2. Sell your immortal soul.<BR>
><BR>
> I used to own a C-64.  People, upon learning this, would give me *boxes* of<BR>
> Commodore parts and software.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, there *are* two options. One is the Kermit I told him to look<BR>
for. The other is to register one of the C-64 emulators for the PC,<BR>
when you do they'll include an adapter that lets you run a 1541 drive<BR>
off the PC's parallel port while running the emulator!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 23:42:46 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> You just need to make an X1542 cable and connect the floppy drive to your<BR>
> 486.  Of course this means that you need a spare floppy cable to cut in<BR>
> half, a DB25 plug, and a soldering iron.  If you do a web search on X1542<BR>
> you'll hopefully turn something up.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect kermit will be simpler. But I may look up that reference,<BR>
because I've got a couple of friends who still have their old C-64<BR>
systems, even though they use PCs now.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 23:47:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
>> Add in some redundant "loops" and<BR>
>> bypasses, and you could isolate the damaged areas, and even maintain<BR>
>> adequate circulation in case of damage to the heart.<BR>
> I'll pay shunting off of damaged areas. Damage to the heart is a little<BR>
> harder to compensate for (cardiogenic shock, or even a middling infarct,<BR>
> is *bad* news acutely).<BR>
><BR>
>> I doubt that you'd be able to get good enough circulation for strenous<BR>
>> activity with your heart gone,<BR>
><BR>
> You're assuming that the enhanced circulatory system is capable of<BR>
> vasomotion (rhythmic contractions seen in reptiles and amphibian<BR>
> circulation). <BR>
><BR>
> At best this would be equivalent to CPR - 10 to 20% of baseline cardiac<BR>
> output, enough to defer the onset of overwhelming hypoxic brain damage.<BR>
> Otherwise you will run into more problems with oxygen and glucose<BR>
> supply, as well as hyperlactataemia.<BR>
><BR>
> You're going to have a hard time staying alive. 'Sneaking away after<BR>
> being left for dead' is right out.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, so maybe we *do* need a secondary heart.<BR>
<BR>
>> An interesting mod that came up in a discussion in private mail was<BR>
>> more intended for designing "genetically superior" humans. But it<BR>
>> *could* be done to a normal human as a "retrofit". <BR>
><BR>
> I'm on rec.arts.sf.science in lurker mode ; it's one of the better<BR>
> USENET groups with regard to signal:noise, most of the time. Sounds like<BR>
> the recent "O Superman" thread.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, I can't post in most newsgroups due to an IsP problem, so I<BR>
emailed the guy in the "posthuman" thread. <BR>
<BR>
> Having a bunch of engineers and IT types talk physiology and biology is<BR>
> downright amusing, sometimes.<BR>
<BR>
They are still better than "non-technical" fans. At least the<BR>
engineers, IT types, etc understand the idea of having to make tradeoffs.<BR>
<BR>
>> Replace all or most of the digestive system with something designed for<BR>
>> highly digestible foods (say a solution of sugars, amino acids,<BR>
>> vitamins, etc). The extra space could be used to store a few pints of<BR>
>> spare blood, a small oxygen tank, or whatever.<BR>
><BR>
> Hmm. As one of my Pathology profs used to say :-<BR>
> 'It's called the liver because you can't live without it'.<BR>
<BR>
I wasn't even *thinking* of removing that! Just the small intestine,<BR>
and maybe part of the large one. <BR>
<BR>
> The gastrointestinal tract does a lot more than take in water and<BR>
> nutrients. There's a huge amount of lymphoid and neural tissue in it,<BR>
> of  uncertain importance.<BR>
<BR>
"If we don't know what it does, it can't be very important..."<BR>
<BR>
	-- Famous Last Words (#17 of a set)<BR>
<BR>
> What you have described is equivalent to the total parenteral nutrition<BR>
> that critically ill people are often given - 'raw' amino acids, lipids<BR>
> and carbohydrates. It does a number of interesting things to liver<BR>
> function.<BR>
<BR>
Drat. <BR>
<BR>
> It also has no effect in prolonging survival, unlike enteral feeding (a<BR>
> nutrient slurry given through a tube into the stomach).<BR>
<BR>
Double drat. And I suppose that the slurry requires just as much<BR>
time/space to digest as normal food?<BR>
<BR>
>> One possible enhancement would be making the lungs a flow-thru system.<BR>
>> That would eliminate most of the problems from "dead space".<BR>
> It would eliminate all of the problems associated with anatomical dead<BR>
> space, which is a consequence of tidal ventilation.<BR>
><BR>
> Alveolar dead space is another kettle of fish altogether ; ventilation<BR>
> and perfusion matching is of paramount importance.<BR>
<BR>
As I recall, the trick to making that work was essentially having the<BR>
blood flowing in one direction along the "tubes" and the air flowing<BR>
the other. This maximizes the transfer of gases.<BR>
<BR>
The high O2, low CO2 air enters at one end and provides a maximal O2<BR>
concentration for the mostly saturated blood (and vice versa for CO2),<BR>
by the other end of the tube, you've got low O2/High CO2 air against<BR>
High CO2, low O2 blood. <BR>
<BR>
Or something like that...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:01:34 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Society and sex-change (WAS: Inbreeding)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> OTOH, as I noted in my original post, there may be such a sthing as an<BR>
> innate sense of maleness/femalenss, possibly related to hormones received<BR>
> during gestation. So unless you modify brain chemistry/structure, you might<BR>
> not get "true/complete" sex change.<BR>
<BR>
On the othedr hand, by the times we are talking about, if you decide<BR>
you don't *like* your ne gender, you can always change back. <BR>
<BR>
> OTGH, not everybody believes there are structural/chemical differences<BR>
> between the brains of the sexes. The issue is highly complex and there are a<BR>
> lot of *societal* presumptions clouding the research (like the need for<BR>
> doctors to "correct" intersex births, Western "binary" gender constructions<BR>
> versus the "trinary" (or more) constructions of Thai and Native American<BR>
> cultures, etc...) And the evidence itself is open to debate.<BR>
<BR>
One nice touch would be handning players some sort of official forms<BR>
for their characters to fill out. With a section like this:<BR>
<BR>
Sex:<BR>
	Male __<BR>
	Female __<BR>
	Other (specify)_____________________<BR>
<BR>
And see how long it takes them to notice...<BR>
<BR>
There's an F.M. Busby story ("The Breeds of Man"?) which involves a<BR>
gene mod to immunize people against AIDS. Only it turns out to have a<BR>
slight flaw. It also immunizes a woman against *sperm* of a given blood<BR>
type (A, B, AB, O) after one pregnancy, even if she miscarries *early*.<BR>
<BR>
This naturally leads to problems, so they are looking for a cure for<BR>
the cure. They come with a mod involving changes to the X and Y<BR>
chromosomes (resulting in what they call W and Z chrosomes). <BR>
<BR>
This time, researchers are a lot more careful, and since this mod has<BR>
to be done to the egg/sperm, they get volunteers from the the (rather<BR>
close knit) company they work for. <BR>
<BR>
It seems to be going fine, until the first of the kids hits puberty. At<BR>
which time "he" turns into a "she". <BR>
<BR>
As I recall, the way it works is that after puberty, "females" change to<BR>
"male" if they ovaluate and the egg isn't fertilized and implanted. <BR>
<BR>
"Males" change to "female" at the end of the period equal to their<BR>
menstrual cycle time when "female", *or* upon exposure (*close*<BR>
exposure) to some pheromone or similar compound associated with<BR>
menstruation. <BR>
<BR>
Thus, a couple will stay "in synch" (and 180 degrees put of phase)<BR>
until one of them gets pregnant. Which locks both of them in their<BR>
male/female modes until the child is born (or maybe weaned? I forget). <BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, the changes in the external genitalia and breasts take a day<BR>
or so. <BR>
<BR>
Yes, it's way to well balanced to be an accident. :-) But it *would*<BR>
make an interesting minor human race. Especially, if as in the story,<BR>
the W & Z chromosomes are dominant...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:25:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: system data format<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > You need all that data only if you're designing a simulation.<BR>
>> > If you're designing a game, then you can abstract it quite a<BR>
>> > bit.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Not as much as you might think. You still need the orbital radius, a<BR>
>> line of reference to measure the orbit positions from, and the position<BR>
>> of each planet with respect to that line at some point in time. Along<BR>
>> with similar info for each satellite. Oh yeah, you need the mass info<BR>
>> too.<BR>
><BR>
> That can be done the easy way or the hard way.  And you don't<BR>
> need mass info unless you're doing a simulation.<BR>
><BR>
> Look, if you've got an orbital radius then you have the orbital<BR>
> period.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. That's what you need the mass for. Luna and Io have fairly<BR>
similar orbital radii. Luna has a period of 27 days, Io has one of 1.8.<BR>
The difference is the *mass* of the primary.<BR>
<BR>
Same orbital radius, different size planets (even using the 1-A sizes<BR>
in the UPP and assuming "standard density") will have very different<BR>
orbital periods for their satellites.<BR>
<BR>
So, at the *very* simplest, you can just assume the "earth density"<BR>
bit, and calculate the mass from the planetary size digit of the UPP.<BR>
But if you use the rules that allow for non-standard densities, then<BR>
you need to factor that in *also*.<BR>
<BR>
So, is the *density* of the non-GG planets stored? Is there a way to<BR>
find the size and density or the mass of the GG planets?<BR>
<BR>
> Map the orbital position to a degree offset from some <BR>
> time frame in the remote past (say -500,000), calculate (once)<BR>
> a funky, static, initial offset based on the system position, <BR>
> orbit number, and world name, and you're done, because the <BR>
> Imperial date itself maintains the orbital positions for the <BR>
> entire universe.  I've done that, it works amazingly well.<BR>
<BR>
Well, frankly, for simplicity, since my routines for converting between<BR>
different calendars use the Julian Day Number (count of days since <BR>
1 January 4713 BC (Julian calendar)) as the "common format", I will<BR>
probably just assume that everything crossed the zero mark on that<BR>
date. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> Want the source?<BR>
<BR>
Not particularly. I could do that too. But as I point out above, it has<BR>
problems. And as long I'm writing it, I'd rather write it *correctly*.<BR>
That way if I need to expand it later, I'll have the code. or at least<BR>
the right "hooks".<BR>
<BR>
> You always have a choice.<BR>
><BR>
> So you see no choices but to be either very abstract or do <BR>
> the overkill thing and risk never finishing.  No wonder <BR>
> you're worried.  I'd suggest a format related to this:<BR>
<BR>
I suggest that you not bother trying to "help" me on this anymore. I<BR>
don't like being talked down to.<BR>
<BR>
Among other things, I *have* running code, from programs for computing<BR>
planetary, asteroid, and cometary positions. <BR>
<BR>
And as I pointed out above, your approach is *too* simple.<BR>
<BR>
Unless the foprmat you list is one of the *standard* system data<BR>
formats, there's no point in my using it. <BR>
<BR>
I asked for some very *specific* data. Namely, what elements of the<BR>
data I listed were *not* available from the "standard" system files. <BR>
<BR>
Instead, I get told I don't need to have that sata (false, as the<BR>
subroutine library *does* need them) and I'm given "advice" on writing<BR>
the program that amounts to "don't worry your little head about all<BR>
those details, just do it my way..."<BR>
<BR>
If that was *not* the way you wished to come across, I suggest a<BR>
careful review of your messages...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:52:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: gender benders<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn Goffin  wrote:<BR>
>> That reminds me of a short story by Marco Vassi, which<BR>
>> concerned a man who considered himself straight, but was<BR>
>> tormented by attraction to and desire for other men. <BR>
>> Eventually change his sex, thinking that if he were a woman<BR>
>> it would be great to be attracted to men.  <BR>
>> <BR>
>> However, on her first night out as a woman, she found<BR>
>> herself irrestibly drawn to a beautiful woman who was<BR>
>> sitting by the bar making eyes at her.<BR>
><BR>
> Does anybody else not see the problem here? ;)<BR>
<BR>
Oh, I see it all right.<BR>
<BR>
Then again, I've talked with enough TG/TS folks to realize that gender<BR>
and sexual orientation are at best *loosely* connected if they are<BR>
connected at all.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:57:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT:  Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Do you have a communications port on the commodore and on your 486?  The<BR>
> easiest way is to use hyperterm on the 486 and some type of terminal<BR>
> program on the commodore and simply send the files to your other machine<BR>
> using a null modem cable.<BR>
<BR>
The C-64 and PCs have *no* ports in common. The PC has fairly standard<BR>
serial and parallel ports. The C-64 has a *very* bastardized IEEE-488<BR>
port (made serial instead of parallel) and a couple of very odd<BR>
proprietary ports.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:21:04 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
Nope, never had Kermit.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2000 3:37 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > I just bought a Commodore-64 and want to transfer my files from my<BR>
> > Commodore-64 to my 486.  Both have modems attached.  The C-64 is running<BR>
> > CCGMS 17 and the 486 is running Telemate for DOS.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > How can I get files from the Commodore to the 486?<BR>
><BR>
> Dig up a copy of Kermit for the C-64. If you can't find one, I'll ask a<BR>
> couple of friends who still have their C-64s if they can make up a<BR>
> Kermit disk.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:27:28 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: (Trav)Historical Tech Levels<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
> When did the 3I develop TL-15?  Most of the standard ship<BR>
> designs (Free Trader, Far Trader, Type S Scout, etc.) are all<BR>
> listed as manufactured to TL-15, so how long have they been<BR>
> making them like that, and just how long has Imperial<BR>
> technology been plateaued?  I ask because the campaign I have<BR>
> been working on (well...off-and-on) for some time now is set<BR>
> just before the beginning of the Solomani Rim War and I'd like<BR>
> to know what sorts of ships/equipment would be commonly<BR>
> available.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC the 3I reached TL15 *during*  the  Solomani  Rim  War.  Thus<BR>
just before the 3I (including the Solomani Autonomous Region) was<BR>
TL14.  However ...<BR>
<BR>
(1) You may encounter experimental TL15 prototypes at that time.<BR>
<BR>
(2) One or two planets may have reached TL15 before the 3I  as  a<BR>
    whole did.  (After all, the 3I is TL15 in 1110 yet there  are<BR>
    the occasional TL16 planets.)<BR>
<BR>
(3) The standard  ship  designs  published  being  TL15  is  IMHO<BR>
    slightly misleading.  IMTU there are several variants of  the<BR>
    Type-S (for example) built at  different  TLs.  Just  as  car<BR>
    companies today bring out multiple versions of the same basic<BR>
    car, so  too  do  Imperial  shipyards.  So  at  TL14  General<BR>
    Shipyards produces a Type-S variant called the  "Orion",  LSP<BR>
    produces a Type-S variant called the "Nova".  At TL15 General<BR>
    Shipyards  produces  another  Type-S   variant   called   the<BR>
    "Sulieman",  while  LSP  produces  the  "Nova-II"   ...   all<BR>
    conforming to the standard Type-S  specification  distributed<BR>
    publicly  in  an  Imperial  Data  Package.   (And  since  the<BR>
    Sulieman class and Nova-II  class  are  very  similar  people<BR>
    usually just refer to them as "Type-S".)<BR>
<BR>
Pulling this back to the original topic: just before the start of<BR>
the Solomani Rim War I'd expect to see a mix of TLs with  the  IN<BR>
max of TL14, and a very occasional TL15 ship (probably as smaller<BR>
vessels rather than big battle wagons).<BR>
<BR>
Also, I don't believe 3I technology has 'plateaued', I think  its<BR>
just in a *very* slow (creeping) advance.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:29:28 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
J-Man wrote:<BR>
> Nope, never had Kermit.<BR>
<BR>
That'll come as a big relief to Miss Piggy!<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:13:22 +0100<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Wanted: decent subject line!<BR>
<BR>
... just can't think of one.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, now we're here.<BR>
<BR>
I have my own column on a new and growing gaming/fiction web portal.<BR>
<BR>
www.fiction-fantasy.net<BR>
<BR>
One of the things they do is to list game product & what it's about.<BR>
<BR>
Not reviews, just<BR>
"Supplement 7: Traders & Gunboats:<BR>
LBB-Format Classic Traveller supplement.<BR>
Includes vessel details and deck plans for several small merchant, scout and<BR>
military vessels.<BR>
Also starship encounter tables and some background on space travel and<BR>
commerce."<BR>
<BR>
Just so that folks who maybe find a copy for sale can see what's in it.<BR>
<BR>
Now, they need people to produce this content. Would anyone be interested?<BR>
<BR>
If so, please contact me offlist.<BR>
<BR>
MJD<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:51:35 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Arbellatra<BR>
<BR>
Moin Charles Collin,<BR>
<BR>
> This is interesting, I don't think I've run across this before.  Where did<BR>
> you get it?  Or is IYTU?  It certainly adds an interesting element of<BR>
> political maneuvering to AA's personality...<BR>
<BR>
  I think the Arbellatra reference in was caused by the Usdiki/Kamurinmur<BR>
  mistake - some maps place Gushemege Capital at Kamurinmur others at Usdiki.<BR>
<BR>
  Interesting, not Arbellatra but Paulo 1 moved the capital. Arbellatra<BR>
  just gave the Lancian Region independence from Vland and Kamurinmur as<BR>
  a thanksgiving for supporting her side.<BR>
<BR>
							HIWG: David Lai<BR>
<BR>
  With the assassination of Empress Jaqueline I by Admiral Olav Plankwell<BR>
in 606, the Imperial Civil War broke out. Presumably the various nobles took<BR>
sides in the disputes over the succession, supporting and opposing various<BR>
factions contending for the throne. The details haven't been worked out until<BR>
details of the current nobility have been decided. At the end of the Civil<BR>
War, Empress Arbellatra would have appointed some of her supporters into the<BR>
nobility, while elevating noble supporters to higher offices.<BR>
  The deployment of Aslan mercenaries by a noble (a newly appointed Senior<BR>
Duke and direct ancestor of the current Senior Duke perhaps?) on the winning<BR>
side, may have given land grants on Tlaowao (Gushemege 2127) and Hkeakwoirea<BR>
(Gushemege 2925) in return for services rendered. Clan leaders may have been<BR>
inducted into the nobility (as Barons), pledging their allegiance to the<BR>
Emperor of the Third Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
							HIWG: David Burden<BR>
<BR>
THE MIIKADGAA FAMILY<BR>
<BR>
     The  Miikadgaa  are  a long standing  family  of  the  Gushemege <BR>
aristocracy.  They came to the nobility in 630 following Arbellatra's <BR>
accession  as  a  result  of the support  offered  to  her  by  Inesh <BR>
Miikadgaa,  at  that time a leading executive  with  Naasirka.  Since <BR>
then  the Miikadgaa dynasty has had a leading role in  the  political <BR>
development  of Gushemege,  either directly or as a power behind  the <BR>
scenes. <BR>
<BR>
							HIWG: David Burden<BR>
<BR>
    In recognition of Lancia's support Arbellatra created the Lancian<BR>
Cultural Region in 639;  a move that was in-line  with the prevailing<BR>
policy of moving power away from the Domains.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 05:08:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
I apologize for the OT posting, but I don't know of a better collection of<BR>
people with extremely arcane knowledge of old gaming products.<BR>
<BR>
Over the weekend I was looking at Warriors of Mars, an old TSR product<BR>
(rules for miniature battles as well as RPG-type adventures on ERB's<BR>
Barsoom), apparently released in 1974. In the introduction, Gary Gygax<BR>
refers to it as the first TSR product of its kind. Was this the very first<BR>
TSR product, or were there others before it?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:24:43 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
Gag....:)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 7:29 AM<BR>
Subject: RE: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> J-Man wrote:<BR>
> > Nope, never had Kermit.<BR>
> <BR>
> That'll come as a big relief to Miss Piggy!<BR>
> <BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2625<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2626</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/19/00 10:53:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, June 19 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2626<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Society and sex-change (WAS: Inbreeding)<BR>
RE: Historical Tech Levels<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re: body mods<BR>
Re: Searching old TML digests<BR>
RE: Lungs (was body mods) (longish)<BR>
RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Re: Gender Benders<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
Re: system data format<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
RE: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
Re: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
Announcement<BR>
Need world ideas with a flavor<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth Inclusion of Trade Routes (LONG)<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2625<BR>
Re: Character Sketches OT:<BR>
RE: Historic Tech<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:55:11 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Society and sex-change (WAS: Inbreeding)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > OTOH, as I noted in my original post, there may be such a sthing as an<BR>
> > innate sense of maleness/femalenss, possibly related to hormones received<BR>
> > during gestation. So unless you modify brain chemistry/structure, you might<BR>
> > not get "true/complete" sex change.<BR>
><BR>
> On the othedr hand, by the times we are talking about, if you decide<BR>
> you don't *like* your ne gender, you can always change back.<BR>
><BR>
> > OTGH, not everybody believes there are structural/chemical differences<BR>
> > between the brains of the sexes. The issue is highly complex and there are a<BR>
> > lot of *societal* presumptions clouding the research (like the need for<BR>
> > doctors to "correct" intersex births, Western "binary" gender constructions<BR>
> > versus the "trinary" (or more) constructions of Thai and Native American<BR>
> > cultures, etc...) And the evidence itself is open to debate.<BR>
><BR>
> One nice touch would be handning players some sort of official forms<BR>
> for their characters to fill out. With a section like this:<BR>
><BR>
> Sex:<BR>
>         Male __<BR>
>         Female __<BR>
>         Other (specify)_____________________<BR>
><BR>
> And see how long it takes them to notice...<BR>
><BR>
> There's an F.M. Busby story ("The Breeds of Man"?) which involves a<BR>
> gene mod to immunize people against AIDS. Only it turns out to have a<BR>
> slight flaw. It also immunizes a woman against *sperm* of a given blood<BR>
> type (A, B, AB, O) after one pregnancy, even if she miscarries *early*.<BR>
><BR>
> This naturally leads to problems, so they are looking for a cure for<BR>
> the cure. They come with a mod involving changes to the X and Y<BR>
> chromosomes (resulting in what they call W and Z chrosomes).<BR>
><BR>
> This time, researchers are a lot more careful, and since this mod has<BR>
> to be done to the egg/sperm, they get volunteers from the the (rather<BR>
> close knit) company they work for.<BR>
><BR>
> It seems to be going fine, until the first of the kids hits puberty. At<BR>
> which time "he" turns into a "she".<BR>
><BR>
> As I recall, the way it works is that after puberty, "females" change to<BR>
> "male" if they ovaluate and the egg isn't fertilized and implanted.<BR>
><BR>
> "Males" change to "female" at the end of the period equal to their<BR>
> menstrual cycle time when "female", *or* upon exposure (*close*<BR>
> exposure) to some pheromone or similar compound associated with<BR>
> menstruation.<BR>
><BR>
> Thus, a couple will stay "in synch" (and 180 degrees put of phase)<BR>
> until one of them gets pregnant. Which locks both of them in their<BR>
> male/female modes until the child is born (or maybe weaned? I forget).<BR>
><BR>
> Oh yeah, the changes in the external genitalia and breasts take a day<BR>
> or so.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
That would be the most tramuatic thing that could happen to a human being I can<BR>
think of....my body doing a change like thin in 24  hours would would probably be<BR>
painful...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:20:25 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Historical Tech Levels<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler writes:<BR>
>OK, I've got a question for all the HIWG veterans out there:  When did the<BR>
>3I develop TL-15?  Most of the standard ship designs (Free Trader, Far<BR>
>Trader, Type S Scout, etc.) are all listed as manufactured to TL-15,<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Am I the only one who doesn't think that any of those vessels are<BR>
	designed at TL 15?  There are lots and lots of class A starports<BR>
	in the Imperium on worlds with TL <15, and I presume that they are<BR>
	building something.  Also, IMTU a TL 15 ship must have it's annual<BR>
	maintenance at a TL 15 starport, and getting to a TL 15 class A<BR>
	starport may be inconvenient for many ships (and there are all those<BR>
	TL <15 class B starports).  The advantages of TL 15 over TL 13 for<BR>
	a type A Freetrader are minimal, so I wouldn't expect the standard<BR>
	designs for such vessels to be at TL 15.  Just my Cr 0.02.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:37:24 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, Michael Koehne wrote:<BR>
>   The benefit would be a more interesting game, as fuel now becomes a<BR>
>   major factor. I've seen many many ships losing a battle, because of<BR>
>   a fuel leak, causing the ship to drift unable to maneuver.<BR>
<BR>
The elimination of reactionless thrusters would also make it a bit more<BR>
difficult to render planets uninhabitable by ramming them at extremely<BR>
high speeds (a cheap, but effective, technique, whose unpopularity in the<BR>
canonical thruster-equipped universe is difficult to explain).  Now...if<BR>
only I could get the typical densities of the weapons and the bridges of<BR>
"High Guard" starships, so I could finish rewriting those design rules to<BR>
allow reaction drives to be handled reasonably realistically...then I<BR>
would be very happy. <grin><BR>
                                                              - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:01:52 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: body mods<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>Alveolar dead space is another kettle of fish altogether ; ventilation<BR>
>>and perfusion matching is of paramount importance.<BR>
>As I recall, the trick to making that work was essentially having the<BR>
>blood flowing in one direction along the "tubes" and the air flowing<BR>
>the other. This maximizes the transfer of gases.<BR>
<BR>
	Both are important.  In humans: The typical "tidal volume" (the<BR>
	volume of air exhaled in a breath) is about 500 ml.  The typical<BR>
	"Anatomical Dead Space" (the volume of passages that conduct air<BR>
	from the atmosphere to the "Alvioli," where gas exchange takes<BR>
	place) is about 150 ml.  Thus, the amount of fresh air that gets<BR>
	to where it is useful is about 350 ml per breath.  This 350 ml<BR>
	is mixing with about 2,000 ml of air already in the lungs.  The<BR>
	result is that the air in the alvioli is about 14% O2 (compared<BR>
	to 21% in the atmosphere).  After hyperventilating, alviolar O2<BR>
	may be as high as 17% O2.<BR>
<BR>
>The high O2, low CO2 air enters at one end and provides a maximal O2<BR>
>concentration for the mostly saturated blood (and vice versa for CO2),<BR>
>by the other end of the tube, you've got low O2/High CO2 air against<BR>
>High CO2, low O2 blood. <BR>
>Or something like that...<BR>
<BR>
	Yup.  It is called "countercurrent exchange," and engineers use<BR>
	the same principle in designing heat exchangers.  With a system<BR>
	like the human lung, O2 diffuses until the concentration in the<BR>
	blood and the alvioli is equal (actually, until the partial<BR>
	pressure is equal, but the distinction is not important here).<BR>
	Thus, the concentration of O2 in the blood can never be higher<BR>
	than that of the air that leaves the alvioli.  With a counter-<BR>
	current system, as you have described, the blood can have a<BR>
	concentration of O2 almost as high as the air entering the system.<BR>
	The distinction between concentration and partial pressure<BR>
	becomes vitally important when considering respiration at low<BR>
	pressure (high altitude, Atm 2-5) or high pressure (diving, Atm<BR>
	8-9).<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:08:09 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Searching old TML digests<BR>
<BR>
Hi all.  What's the best way to search back issues of the TML?  I've found<BR>
one archive, not very up-to-date, but that's about it.  I'd like to do a<BR>
search for say, anything about the Civil War or Admiral Arbellatra<BR>
Alkalikhoi (affectionately known among her fleet as "triple-A" :-)<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:30:49 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Lungs (was body mods) (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Bolie Williams IV writes:<BR>
>>>about dolphins, they have enormous lung capacity (can hold their breathe<BR>
for<BR>
>>>8 minutes without problem)<BR>
>>quite possible that dolphins are exceptions to this rule, but do you<BR>
>>recall if they said at the museum specifically that they have large<BR>
>>lung capacities or that they can just hold their breath for a <BR>
>I recall reading that they store tremendous amounts of oxygen in their<BR>
>muscles.  We store some, in the form of myoglobin, which is used when you<BR>
>can't get oxygen to your muscles fast enough.  I believe that marine<BR>
>mammals do something similar.<BR>
>>>ObTrav: I am sure it won't be much longer before they really understand<BR>
alot<BR>
>>>more about the dolphins and it could make for some interesting<BR>
underwater or<BR>
>>>even perhaps low oxygen environment modification to humans.<BR>
>>Robert O'Connor has touched on some of the issues that would have to be<BR>
>>addressed.  Modifying humans to this end would require complex and<BR>
>>far-reaching alterations to our physiology.  This would require pretty<BR>
>Already, some humans have more myoglobin enriched muscle (dark meat)<BR>
>than others.  Increasing the amount would help a lot.  The biggest problem<BR>
>for humans would be pressure.  Temperature would also be a problem in<BR>
>cool water.<BR>
<BR>
	When a 70 kg human holds their breath, the O2 is stored as follows:<BR>
	(about) 720 ml in the lungs, 825 ml in the blood, 240 ml in the<BR>
	muscles, 200 ml in various tissues, for a total of 1,985 ml.  Even<BR>
	if the myoglobin content of the muscles was increased to be<BR>
	comparable with seal muscle, O2 storage would only increase by about<BR>
	480 ml.  A seal actually exhales before diving, and a 30 kg<BR>
	individual stores O2 thus: (about) 104 ml in the lungs, 1,125 ml in<BR>
	the blood, 270 ml in the muscles, and 100 ml in various tissues, for<BR>
	a total of about 1,599 ml.<BR>
<BR>
	So, the biggest difference between a seal and a human is the blood<BR>
	component.  It is difficult to increase O2 carrying capicity in blood<BR>
	without making the blood too thick, so a 30 kg seal has about 4.5 L<BR>
	of blood compared to about 5.0 L for a 70 kg human.  Even with the<BR>
	various adaptations that seals have to store extra O2, they only<BR>
	have about 53 ml O2 per kg of animal compared to 28 ml O2 per kg<BR>
	for humans.  However, seals can hold their breath many times longer<BR>
	than humans.  This is because of other adaptations such as reduced<BR>
	metabolic rate and reduced blood flow to much of the body.  I don't<BR>
	know what the specifics are for dolphins, but I imagine that the<BR>
	situation is quite similar.<BR>
<BR>
	Of course, none of these adaptations will help the long-term survival<BR>
	of a seal in a low-O2 environment.  They must regularly return to<BR>
	atmospheric air to pay the "oxygen debt" that they have incurred while<BR>
	holding their breath.  This is not to say that we have nothing to<BR>
	learn about respiration physiology from these creatures, but our<BR>
	respiratory system is complex and interlinked with our entire<BR>
	physiology.  I would place the modification of humans to seal-like<BR>
	divers at a high TL.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
(biologist)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:31:30 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I apologize for the OT posting, but I don't know of a better collection of<BR>
>people with extremely arcane knowledge of old gaming products.<BR>
><BR>
>Over the weekend I was looking at Warriors of Mars, an old TSR product<BR>
>(rules for miniature battles as well as RPG-type adventures on ERB's<BR>
>Barsoom), apparently released in 1974. In the introduction, Gary Gygax<BR>
>refers to it as the first TSR product of its kind. Was this the very first<BR>
>TSR product, or were there others before it?<BR>
<BR>
I'm reasonably sure that the the woodgrain D&D set came out first, although<BR>
I'm unsure if there were other products before it. If I remember my TSR lore<BR>
correctly both "Warriors of Mars" and "Star Probe" came out just a little<BR>
later. I'm unsure if they were published in 1974 or 1975. A good way to get<BR>
a rough estimate of the date would be to take a look at the introduction and<BR>
add a month or three to the date there. For example, the "Forward" [sic] for<BR>
the little tan books was dated November 1st, 1973 but D&D wasn't published<BR>
until early '74. This pattern is generally repeated in early TSR products.<BR>
What I can say for certain is that "Warriors of Mars" came out somewhere<BR>
between the beginning of 1974 and the end of 1975 when Tactical Studies<BR>
Rules was replaced by TSR Hobbies, Inc. and the GK ("Gygax-Kaye") symbol was<BR>
replaced by the cliched wizard symbol.<BR>
<BR>
Hope this info helps a little.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:42:11 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gender Benders<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) shadow@krypton.rain.com  writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>>There's an F.M. Busby story ("The Breeds of Man"?) which involves a<BR>
gene mod to immunize people against AIDS. Only it turns out to have a<BR>
slight flaw. It also immunizes a woman against *sperm* of a given blood<BR>
type (A, B, AB, O) after one pregnancy, even if she miscarries *early*.<<<<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>>>"Males" change to "female" at the end of the period equal to their<BR>
menstrual cycle time when "female", *or* upon exposure (*close*<BR>
exposure) to some pheromone or similar compound associated with<BR>
menstruation.<BR>
<BR>
Thus, a couple will stay "in synch" (and 180 degrees put of phase)<BR>
until one of them gets pregnant. Which locks both of them in their<BR>
male/female modes until the child is born (or maybe weaned? I forget).<<<<BR>
<BR>
Which sounds very much like the Motie reproductive cycle, except you don't<BR>
die if you don't get pregnant :)<BR>
<BR>
I remember another story I once read where a virus evolved that was spread<BR>
when people *donated* blood. The virus somehow changed their emotional<BR>
makeup to make them become more altruistic, and therefore more likely to<BR>
donate blood (incidentally causing war, crime, etc.) to go down.<BR>
<BR>
It's pretty bloody unlikely, but I wanted to use a similar idea as the<BR>
backdrop for a non-OTU game where Earth had been devastated by various<BR>
engineered plagues released during the terrible wars of the late-21st<BR>
Century.<BR>
<BR>
The cures, combined with directed breeding and artificial insemination to<BR>
restore the human genotype (there was a *lot* of radiation and pollution)<BR>
ends up removing a lot of the human "territorial instinct" and also causing<BR>
crime, war, etc. to almost vanish...I never developed the idea for a game,<BR>
but might someday do it as *writing* project. (This was also going to be the<BR>
world where sex change became common and reversible.)<BR>
<BR>
>>>Then again, I've talked with enough TG/TS folks to realize that gender<BR>
and sexual orientation are at best *loosely* connected if they are<BR>
connected at all.<<<<BR>
<BR>
Amen!<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:00:03 -0400<BR>
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
>I suspect kermit will be simpler. But I may look up that reference,<BR>
>because I've got a couple of friends who still have their old C-64<BR>
>systems, even though they use PCs now.<BR>
<BR>
What's a Kermit in this case?<BR>
<BR>
And will it work for a C128 in C64 mode?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
C.T.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:45:11 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: system data format<BR>
<BR>
Moin Leonard Erickson,<BR>
<BR>
> > Want the source?<BR>
<BR>
  of course!<BR>
<BR>
> Among other things, I *have* running code, from programs for computing<BR>
> planetary, asteroid, and cometary positions. <BR>
<BR>
  and I want the source here, also.<BR>
<BR>
  Are you using the standard cephem/xephem ?<BR>
<BR>
Bye Micahel<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:50:42 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
Moin SD Mooney,<BR>
<BR>
> >  Reactionless thrusters are like a perpetum mobile. So if you start thinking<BR>
> >  about 'speed limit for thursters' - do it right and throw reactionless<BR>
> >  CT/MT/T4 in the trashcan of where they belong.<BR>
> <BR>
> And while you're at it lets throw the equally broken HePLAR away. <BR>
<BR>
  While HePLAR is 'only' broken in formulars, T-Plates are broken in concept.<BR>
<BR>
> Say, why don't we base the game on ion drives? <not serious><BR>
<BR>
  This would also mean a game without jumpdrive and without graph technology.<BR>
<BR>
  I would call this kind of scenario 'time escapies' as most elite crews had<BR>
  been started as greenhorns some 1000 years ago to escape their future.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Micahel<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:09:57 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
<BR>
> Miller, Robert, CAPT; 'joseph.mazzafro@jhuapl.edu'<BR>
> Subject: Nanotech "Red Blood Cells" Can Radically Change Navy<BR>
> Specwar/USW Diving<BR>
><BR>
> FYI.  Significant "breakout" technology, proven valid by AFMIC =<BR>
evaluation.<BR>
> Divers could operate at any depth for several hours without fear of =<BR>
the<BR>
> bends or use of any external tank apparatus.    V/R, --JJG<BR>
><BR>
> RESPIROCYTES: MECHANICAL ARTIFICIAL RED BLOOD CELLS<BR>
> Office of Naval Intelligence Maritime Technology Assessment, May 1, =<BR>
2000<BR>
> The potential which nanotechnology represents cannot now be clearly<BR>
> understood. Although it is easier to envision replacing and upgrading<BR>
> existing machines with the improvements which nanotechnologies will =<BR>
allow,<BR>
> it is quite another matter to envision new functions and classes of<BR>
> machines which until now have not been possible. The concept of<BR>
> respirocytes represents the latter.<BR>
> Respirocytes are medical nanomachines now in development that will be =<BR>
able<BR>
> to deliver 236 times more oxygen to tissues per unit volume than =<BR>
natural<BR>
> red cells. They will have primary applications including transfusable<BR>
> blood substitution, partial treatment for anemia, prenatal/neonatal =<BR>
lung<BR>
> disorders, enhancement of cardiovascular/neurovascular procedures, =<BR>
tumor<BR>
> therapies, prevention of asphyxia, artificial breathing; and a variety =<BR>
of<BR>
> sports, veterinary, battlefield and other uses.<BR>
> Molecular manufacturing promises precise control of matter at the =<BR>
atomic<BR>
> and molecular level, allowing the construction of micron-scale =<BR>
machines<BR>
> comprised of nanometer-scale components. Medical nanomachines will be<BR>
> among the earliest applications. The proposed artificial red blood =<BR>
cell or<BR>
> "respirocyte" is a bloodborne spherical 1-Micron diamondoid 1000-atm<BR>
> pressure vessel with active pumping powered by endogenous serum =<BR>
glucose,<BR>
> able to deliver 236 times more oxygen to the tissues per unit volume =<BR>
than<BR>
> natural red cells and to manage carbonic acidity. An onboard =<BR>
nanocomputer<BR>
> and numerous chemical and pressure sensors enable complex device =<BR>
behaviors<BR>
> remotely reprogrammable by the physician via externally applied =<BR>
acoustic<BR>
> signals. It will consist of 18 billion precisely arranged structural =<BR>
atoms<BR>
> plus, when fully loaded, 9 billion temporarily resident molecules.<BR>
> Respirocytes may be used as the active oxygen-carrying component of a<BR>
> universally transfusable blood substitute that is free of disease =<BR>
vectors<BR>
> such as hepatitis, venereal disease, malarial parasites or AIDS, =<BR>
storable<BR>
> indefinitely and readily available with no need for cross-matching.<BR>
> Mechanical red cells, like other artificial blood substitutes, may =<BR>
permit<BR>
> treatment of devout Jehovah's Witness patients and others who refuse<BR>
> transfusion of natural blood products on religious grounds. In current<BR>
> practice, organs must be transplanted soon after harvest. Respirocytes<BR>
> could be used as a long-duration prefusant to preserve living tissue,<BR>
> especially at low temperature, for grafts (kidney, marrow, liver and =<BR>
skin)<BR>
> and organ transplantation.<BR>
> Respirocytes could serve as an internal SCUBA device. With an =<BR>
augmentation<BR>
> dose, or nanolung, the diver holds his breath for 0.2-4.0 hours while<BR>
> going about his business underwater, then surfaces, hyperventilates =<BR>
for<BR>
> 6-12 minutes to recharge, and returns to work below. Similar<BR>
> considerations apply in space exploration scenarios. A therapeutic =<BR>
dose of<BR>
> respirocytes reconfigured to absorb N2 instead of O2/CO2 could allow<BR>
> complete decompression of an N2-saturated human body from a depth of 26<BR>
> meters in as little as 1 second, although in practice full relief will<BR>
> require ~60 sec approximating the circulation time of the blood.<BR>
> Direct water breathing, even with the help of respirocytes, would be very<BR>
> difficult as seawater contains at most only one-thirtieth the oxygen per<BR>
> lungful as air. A person would have to breathe at least 30 times more<BR>
> lungfuls of water than air to absorb the same volume of respiratory<BR>
> oxygen. Lungs full of water weigh nearly three times more than lungs full<BR>
> of air, so a person could hyperventilate water only about one -third as<BR>
> fast as the same volume of air. As a result, a water-breathing human can<BR>
> absorb at most 1-10% of the oxygen needed to sustain life and physical<BR>
> activity.<BR>
> Respirocytes could permit major sports records to be achieved, because the<BR>
> devices can deliver oxygen to muscle tissues faster than the lungs can<BR>
> provide, for the duration of the sporting event. This would be especially<BR>
> useful running, swimming, and other endurance-oriented events, and in<BR>
> competitive sports such as basketball, football and soccer where extended<BR>
> periods of sustained maximum exertion are required.<BR>
> It would not be difficult to imagine military applications of this<BR>
> technology. The ability to temporarily hold one's breath for several<BR>
> minutes in the presence of smoke or noxious vapor until alternate  oxygen<BR>
> sources became available would be welcomed. The ability to perform  extreme<BR>
> physical effort for short periods during emergency situations is a common<BR>
> military situation. Instead of having to carry large amounts of the<BR>
> traditional blood transfusion materials, plasma and respirocytes could<BR>
> provide a temporary substitute. Clearly the potential which nanotechnology<BR>
> allows will effect many military capabilities.<BR>
> Detailed information can be found on the unclassified web at:<BR>
> <http://www.foresight.org/Nanomedicine/Respirocytes.html><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:49:49 EDT<BR>
From: OMENSIGIL@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
<BR>
If you really want to talk about mammal lung capacity, the beaver it the one <BR>
to look at.  They have the ability to stay under water for 30-40 minutes at a <BR>
time with membranes behind their big teeth that shut to keep air in when they <BR>
chew on stuff under water.  Their body chemistry allows them to tolerate <BR>
major amounts of carbon-dioxide in their system so they dont black out from <BR>
overdose of it.<BR>
<BR>
omensigil<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:36:22 +0100<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Announcement<BR>
<BR>
My novel, Behind the Throne, is available as of NOW from Highbridge Press.<BR>
<BR>
www.highbridgepress.com<BR>
<BR>
Availability through Amazon will take 1-2 more weeks.<BR>
<BR>
OBTRAV?  You have to be kidding.....<BR>
<BR>
MJD<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:17:34 EDT<BR>
From: OMENSIGIL@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Need world ideas with a flavor<BR>
<BR>
Hello all.<BR>
Im creating a pocket empire for the TNE setting.  This empire is only a <BR>
single sub-sector and I have four world ideas but need more....planet density <BR>
required.  The current worlds Ive "created" are ideas taken from books, <BR>
movies, etc.  All of them have an Eastern-Asian(oriental) setting-flavor.  <BR>
Their tech-level is high given Virus never got through their defences (except <BR>
for world #3-Bangkok-kind of a bladerunner radioactive setting with tech <BR>
specializing in biotechnology).<BR>
Other worlds have specialization in certain tech also....nanotechnology(an <BR>
insular "china" cultured planet) and cybertech( Japanese-like planet modeled <BR>
after a japanese-animation flick called "Ghost in the Shell").  Planet four <BR>
is a paradise planet named Shangri-La.  Any one willing to help me come up <BR>
with new ideas?<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
omensigil<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:50:21 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
John P. Raynor writes:<BR>
> The elimination of reactionless thrusters would also make it a bit more<BR>
> difficult to render planets uninhabitable by ramming them at extremely<BR>
> high speeds (a cheap, but effective, technique, whose unpopularity in the<BR>
> canonical thruster-equipped universe is difficult to explain).  Now...if<BR>
> only I could get the typical densities of the weapons and the bridges of<BR>
> "High Guard" starships, so I could finish rewriting those design rules to<BR>
> allow reaction drives to be handled reasonably realistically...then I<BR>
> would be very happy. <grin><BR>
<BR>
Have fun.  The important thing to remember for high guard designs is that TL 12+ armor has a density of 210 tons/dT.  I'm not sure about exact figures for the others, but you probably won't be horribly wrong by figuring 14 tons/dT for drives, power plant, weaponry, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Any heavily armored high guard ship will have the majority of its weight in armor.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:52:44 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
Michael Koehne writes:<BR>
> Moin SD Mooney,<BR>
> <BR>
> > >  Reactionless thrusters are like a perpetum mobile. So if you start<BR>
> > >  thinking about 'speed limit for thursters' - do it right and throw<BR>
> > >  reactionless CT/MT/T4 in the trashcan of where they belong.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > And while you're at it lets throw the equally broken HePLAR away. <BR>
> <BR>
>   While HePLAR is 'only' broken in formulars, T-Plates are broken in<BR>
>   concept. <BR>
<BR>
Yes, but its quite severely broken.  The basic problem is that any reaction drive which is capable of generating typical traveller accelerations for significant periods is going to have absolutely appalling power requirements.  By appalling I mean 'your average free trader can slag a city with its exhaust'.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:12:08 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> Have fun.  The important thing to remember for high guard designs is <BR>
> that TL 12+ armor has a density of 210 tons/dT.  I'm not sure about<BR>
> exact figures for the others, but you probably won't be horribly wrong<BR>
> by figuring 14 tons/dT for drives, power plant, weaponry, etc.<BR>
<BR>
I've got copies of both the "T4" edition of "Fire, Fusion, and Steel" <BR>
and the "Standard Ship Design System," and have calculated the densities<BR>
of just about everything *except* for weapons and that most ill-defined<BR>
of "High Guard" components, the "bridge."  I suppose the "right" way to<BR>
solve this problem (at least as far as the weapons are concerned) is to<BR>
use "Fire, Fusion, and steel" to actually *design* an array of warlike<BR>
bits and pieces, at various Tech Levels, and then do the necessary<BR>
division to calculate their densities.  I have, however, found the<BR>
"Fire, Fusion, and Steel" weapon design rules incredibly intimidating<BR>
(if only because I don't really know what "an average Tech Level 12<BR>
100-dton particle accelerator bay" *should* "look like"), so I was<BR>
really hoping that some kind soul with a better grasp of the nuts and<BR>
bolts could throw a few hard(ish) numbers in my direction.<BR>
<BR>
                                                          - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:14:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth Inclusion of Trade Routes (LONG)<BR>
<BR>
If anyone's interested in the code I used to generate my trade maps, I'm willing to provide it.  It's 570 lines of rather poorly commented C code, however, which may limit its value.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:30:01 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
John P. Raynor writes:<BR>
> I've got copies of both the "T4" edition of "Fire, Fusion, and Steel" <BR>
> and the "Standard Ship Design System," and have calculated the densities<BR>
> of just about everything *except* for weapons and that most ill-defined<BR>
> of "High Guard" components, the "bridge."  I suppose the "right" way to<BR>
> solve this problem (at least as far as the weapons are concerned) is to<BR>
> use "Fire, Fusion, and steel" to actually *design* an array of warlike<BR>
> bits and pieces, at various Tech Levels, and then do the necessary<BR>
> division to calculate their densities.<BR>
Heh.  However, I suspect estimating 14 tons/dT for weaponry, and about 5/dT for<BR>
the bridge (which includes substantial open space) will get your weight averages close enough (within a few percent).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:33:37 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2625<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
> In mail you [i.e. Russell B] write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Glenn Goffin  wrote:<BR>
> >> That reminds me of a short story by Marco Vassi, which<BR>
> >> concerned a man who considered himself straight, but was<BR>
> >> tormented by attraction to and desire for other men. <BR>
> >> Eventually change his sex, thinking that if he were a woman<BR>
> >> it would be great to be attracted to men.  <BR>
> >> <BR>
> >> However, on her first night out as a woman, she found<BR>
> >> herself irrestibly drawn to a beautiful woman who was<BR>
> >> sitting by the bar making eyes at her.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Does anybody else not see the problem here? ;)<BR>
> <BR>
> Oh, I see it all right.<BR>
> <BR>
> Then again, I've talked with enough TG/TS folks to realize that gender<BR>
> and sexual orientation are at best *loosely* connected if they are<BR>
> connected at all.<BR>
<BR>
I meant "the problem the protagonist has" not "the problem the <BR>
story has." <BR>
<BR>
- -RB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:41:53 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Character Sketches OT:<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
>  Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
> >If catalog shots don't work for you how about photos scanned<BR>
> >from movies? If you pick a non star character actor you should<BR>
> >be fine. When I needed a picture of my D&D Wizard, Tien, for<BR>
> >instance I simply grabbed a picture of Fisher Stevens (as Eugene<BR>
> >the evil corporate hacker in Hackers) off the Net and printed<BR>
> it out.<BR>
<BR>
> Does Tien hunt heads at all? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Not yet but he might if there was money in it, he's Neutral<BR>
(selfish). Given that head hunting is probably illegal and <BR>
the fine for murder is 50,000 gold in Darokin, his home country,<BR>
he's not liable to collect any evidence that can be used against <BR>
him. I was flipping channels one day & saw Fisher Stevens in Early <BR>
Edition & went 'That's Tien" since I knew Tien had an annoying<BR>
voice & a big nose (he's Chr 7). When I found a Hackers photo of<BR>
him in some funky robes I had a picture I didn't need to alter.<BR>
<BR>
> I did something similar for my RQIII Lunar Soldier character - <BR>
> scanned in Kenneth Branagh from Henry V and added runes onto it. <BR>
> Surreal thing was that my fellow players assumed that I was the <BR>
> person on the photo. (There is a copy of the photo at <BR>
> http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar/ in the RQ page with the <BR>
> stats if you're interested).<BR>
<BR>
Nice picture, I like what you did with the runes. Branaugh<BR>
does seem a little young to be playing a 21 year lunar army<BR>
veteran though. Are your fellow players ignorant of Mr. Branaugh <BR>
or do you actually look like him?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:43:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Historic Tech<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:27:28 +0100<BR>
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: (Trav)Historical Tech Levels<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>IIRC the 3I reached TL15 *during*  the  Solomani  Rim  War.  Thus<BR>
>just before the 3I (including the Solomani Autonomous Region) was<BR>
>TL14.  However ...<BR>
><BR>
>(1) You may encounter experimental TL15 prototypes at that time.<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>Pulling this back to the original topic: just before the start of<BR>
>the Solomani Rim War I'd expect to see a mix of TLs with  the  IN<BR>
>max of TL14, and a very occasional TL15 ship (probably as smaller<BR>
>vessels rather than big battle wagons).<BR>
<BR>
	One idea that I have been playing with is that once the Xboat system is in<BR>
place, it might become advantageous for a large organization (saaaay...like<BR>
the Navy?) to set up a parallel system using J-5 or (just previous to the<BR>
SRW) J-6, with the station sited to use the drives to their maximum<BR>
efficiency (in other words, as close to 5 or 6 parsecs apart as possible).<BR>
This would mean that Navy planners could get information from the frontiers<BR>
far sooner than the public/politicians could.  The farther away from which<BR>
the information came, the greater the time difference.  Heck, they could<BR>
even finance it by using the information to make stock market transactions<BR>
through dummy brokers and then launder the money back into a huge 'black<BR>
budget'<BR>
	Food for thought.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - don't try to blame my employer for what are clearly my own<BR>
opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2626<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, June 19 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2627<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: <BR>
RE: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
RE: Historic Tech<BR>
Re: Society and sex-change<BR>
Re: Historical Tech Levels<BR>
call for Striker vehicle & equipment designs<BR>
Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Striker at Kristian Miller's<BR>
re: OT? sex-change pheromones and inbreeding<BR>
RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
First In; Planet Generation....<BR>
Re: Privateers<BR>
Re: Corporate Profiles (quick question)<BR>
Re: First In; Planet Generation....<BR>
Re: Character Sketches OT:<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
High Guard fusion discussion now on CT-Starships<BR>
Re: Announcement<BR>
Re: High Guard fusion discussion now on CT-Starships<BR>
Re: High Guard fusion discussion now on CT-Starships<BR>
Sealand stuff<BR>
Vs: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
RE: XML (was: system data format)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:57:05 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: <BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > The advantage of travelling at near-c speeds versus a foe that was<BR>
> > significantly slower would be overwhelming--somewhat along the lines<BR>
> > of jet fighters versus prop fighters.<BR>
> <BR>
> Nope, there's *no* advantage whatsoever. Because if you maintain a<BR>
> constant velocity, you can be hit dead center by a laser or PAW at<BR>
> *any* range.<BR>
> And as I showed above, the distance you can evade by depends on range,<BR>
> and on your acceleration, *nothing* else.<BR>
<BR>
Yes but if you are traveling faster you will be within range<BR>
for a shorter period of time. Weapons in Traveller have a<BR>
maximum range. The exact details will depend on the specific <BR>
combat rules set you are using but it would seem to be preferable <BR>
to be in the enemies firing range for less time so that<BR>
they will have fewer chances to hit you although this will mean <BR>
that you have fewer chances to hit them.<BR>
<BR>
For example if your enemy's weapons have a ten light second<BR>
maximum range and you are moving at 0.5 C (relative to them)<BR>
than you will be in range for no more than 40 seconds [1]. If<BR>
you are stationary (relative to them) than you will be in range<BR>
forever.<BR>
<BR>
[1] Their weapons have a 10 LS range & therefore can fire at<BR>
anything in a 20 LS diameter sphere. At 0.5 C is will take<BR>
40 seconds to traverse this sphere if the ships courses are<BR>
at a right angle, otherwise it will take less time.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:09:09 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
<BR>
Kagehira writes:<BR>
>>Miller, Robert, CAPT; 'joseph.mazzafro@jhuapl.edu'<BR>
>>Subject: Nanotech "Red Blood Cells" Can Radically Change Navy<BR>
>>Specwar/USW Diving<BR>
>>FYI.  Significant "breakout" technology, proven valid by AFMIC =<BR>
>>evaluation.<BR>
>>Divers could operate at any depth for several hours without fear of =<BR>
>>the<BR>
>>bends or use of any external tank apparatus.    V/R, --JJG<BR>
>>RESPIROCYTES: MECHANICAL ARTIFICIAL RED BLOOD CELLS<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I haven't read this very carefully, but I suspect that such<BR>
	magical technology will not become available for some time yet.<BR>
	The "bends" has nothing to do with red blood cells, and having<BR>
	red blood cells that can carry lots of O2 is not going to do<BR>
	you much good unless you can deliver O2 to the blood more<BR>
	quickly, make the red blood cells pick up the O2 when they are<BR>
	supposed to, make the red blood cells liberate the O2 when they<BR>
	are supposed to, and figure out how to deal with CO2, lactic<BR>
	acid, etc., etc.  I'm not saying that it cannot be done, but<BR>
	(if you will pardon the pun) don't hold your breath.  Perhaps<BR>
	Mr. O'Connor can comment further.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:12:38 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Historic Tech<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
> One idea that I have been playing with is that once the Xboat<BR>
> system is in place, it might become advantageous for a large<BR>
> organization (saaaay...like the Navy?) to set up a parallel<BR>
> system using J-5 or (just previous to the SRW) J-6, with the<BR>
> station sited to use the drives to their maximum efficiency<BR>
> (in other words, as close to 5 or 6 parsecs apart as possible).<BR>
> This would mean that Navy planners could get information from <BR>
> the frontiers far sooner than the public/politicians could.<BR>
> The farther away from which the information came, the greater<BR>
> the time difference.  Heck, they could even finance it by using<BR>
> the information to make stock market transactions through dummy<BR>
> brokers and then launder the money back into a huge 'black<BR>
> budget'<BR>
<BR>
It's been done!  According to GDW a corporation by  the  name  of<BR>
Imperialines runs a fleet of slow  moving  freight  haulers.  But<BR>
they also have a few special vessels:  indistinguishable  to  the<BR>
casual eye from their normal Type-TI,  the  Type-TJs  are  jump-6<BR>
capable.  They allowed Duke Norris (in  MT)  to  receive  advance<BR>
notice of the assassination of  Strephon  ahead  of  the  general<BR>
public (who use the xboat-based TAS News Service).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Food for thought.<BR>
<BR>
You sound like Roger Sanger when you sign-off like that!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:14:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Society and sex-change<BR>
<BR>
Somebody wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > OTOH, as I noted in my original post, there may be such a sthing as an<BR>
> > innate sense of maleness/femalenss, possibly related to hormones<BR>
received<BR>
> > during gestation. So unless you modify brain chemistry/structure, you<BR>
might<BR>
> > not get "true/complete" sex change.<BR>
<BR>
	My recollection is a bit fuzzy, but about three-four years ago there was an<BR>
article in the Los Angeles Times about some research that was being done in<BR>
gender-identity/brain structure.  It seems that near the base of the brain,<BR>
somewhere around the pituitary gland/limbic system fun spots, there is a<BR>
small organ about the size of a grain of rice.  The researchers did not know<BR>
what it did or how it functioned, but after numerous autopsies, they found<BR>
an extremely strong correlation between the size of that structure and the<BR>
person's (former) gender identity.  It was measureably smaller in women than<BR>
it was in men.  It was found to be smaller in males who had undergone<BR>
sex-change operations, but IIRC, they were unsure if it was originally<BR>
smaller, or had shrunk after the operation.  Interestingly enough, one's<BR>
sexual orientation had no correlation with the size of this structure; it<BR>
was as large in homosexual males as it was in heterosexual males.<BR>
	In other words, there _may_be_ an 'innate sense of maleness/femaleness',<BR>
and it may be related to the structure of the brain.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - don't try to blame my employer for what are clearly my own<BR>
opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:24:47 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Historical Tech Levels<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> The advantages of TL 15 over TL 13 for<BR>
> a type A Freetrader are minimal, <BR>
<BR>
This is not true in MT.<BR>
<BR>
> so I wouldn't expect the standard<BR>
> designs for such vessels to be at TL 15.  <BR>
<BR>
TL 15 power plants are half the size of TL 14 ones and a third <BR>
the size of TL 13 ones in MT. This means that the TL 15 ship <BR>
has a significantly larger cargo capacity since its power <BR>
plant is smaller. Admittedly this is much more important on <BR>
military ships with lots of weapons & large power plants but <BR>
it does make a difference even with a Type A.<BR>
<BR>
If you take the standard TL 15 Type Free Trader design from <BR>
the MT book (which may be a broken design, I have not<BR>
reverse engineered it) and pull its TL 15 990 MW, 55 kilo liter<BR>
(about 4 displacement tons) power plant and replace it with a <BR>
TL 13 990 MW, 165 kl (about 12.2 tons) power plant you will loose <BR>
110 (about 8 tons) kl of cargo space. This is about 10% of your<BR>
total cargo volume of 1107 kl. This will make a _major_ difference <BR>
in potential profitability. If your ship makes 25 trips a year<BR>
carrying cargo and that 8 tons of cargo space you've lost <BR>
would have been full 80% of the time (at Cr 1,000/ton) than<BR>
you've just lost Cr 320,000 a year in revenues. This could be<BR>
the difference between making money and loosing money.<BR>
<BR>
Admittedly a 990 MW plant is more than <BR>
a well designed Type A needs but that's another issue.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:33:29 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: call for Striker vehicle & equipment designs<BR>
<BR>
Kristian Miller, Erick Christgau, Luther Martin, and I are<BR>
planning to play Striker (the original Striker from Classic<BR>
Traveller) monthly for the next several months.  <BR>
<BR>
If you have any designs (vehicles, artillery, drones,<BR>
whatever) that you would like us to break, please email<BR>
them to me, preferably in ASCII text format.  We'll post<BR>
reports to the TML each month.  <BR>
<BR>
If you would like to play, Kristian Miller will be posting<BR>
the July date shortly.  We play at Kristian's house in San<BR>
Jose, on huge table in his gaming room.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:51:49 -0400<BR>
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com<BR>
Subject: Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
     I was under the impression that "Tractics" (WWII armor miniatures rules) was the first TSR product, but now that I'm typing it the thought has occured that perhaps "Tractics" was originally published by a different company and later re-printed by TSR (in the same manner as "Chainmail"), in which case the wood-grain-box D&D set would be first.<BR>
<BR>
NOTE:  Take anything I say here with a large grain of salt; all of this was occuring before I was born (Nov. 74)!<BR>
<BR>
Trent<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:05:22 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
<BR>
Kristian Miller, Erick Christgau, and I played several<BR>
games of Snapshot on Saturday 17 June.  We had intended to<BR>
play Striker, but weren't quite ready to go.<BR>
<BR>
I'll leave the tactical discussion to Kristian, but will<BR>
hit some of the highlights here.<BR>
<BR>
We played cut-throat games, in which each of us ran a team<BR>
of two or three people, with the goal being to get control<BR>
of the ship.  We had a great mix of randomly generated<BR>
characters and tried to outfit them as best we could.  In<BR>
one game, we decided to give all of our people only blade<BR>
weapons, polearms, and pistols.  We learned in that game<BR>
that a broadsword is a very dangerous weapon, and that it<BR>
is better against battle dress than a snub pistol.  <BR>
<BR>
In other episodes, we learned that grenades are really<BR>
effective.  One of my characters killed one of Erick's by<BR>
throwing not one but two grenades into his square.  In a<BR>
later game, one of Kristian's characters killed one of<BR>
mine, who was hiding behind a wall beside an open door, by<BR>
putting an entire magazine of HE RAM grenades through the<BR>
door and into the square adjacent to my guy.  Battle dress<BR>
just didn't help him.<BR>
<BR>
I think that was the game where most of the battle<BR>
dress/high energy weapon guys got killed very early.  They<BR>
just seemed to draw fire, I guess after that first game<BR>
when my 433377 character vaporized one of Erick's guys with<BR>
a PGMP-14.  <BR>
<BR>
The action point and interrupt rules can be used quite<BR>
viciously.  In the last game, it got down to Kristian's<BR>
battle-dress/high energy weapon guy and my guy in cloth<BR>
with an ACR but many more action points.  I interrupted<BR>
Kristian's guy, then Kristian took his turn.  In the next<BR>
turn, I did not interrupt, and Kristian's man moved.  Then<BR>
my man ran up and shot him at close range.  (I still had to<BR>
roll a 9+ to hit, and rolled a 10.)  <BR>
<BR>
Snapshot integrates the "to hit" and the "to penetrate"<BR>
questions, so you compare weapon to armor to range on a<BR>
single table.  I would prefer to break it into two rolls,<BR>
but it does make for a fast, fun game.  If you succeed on<BR>
the table, you are just about guaranteed to take the target<BR>
out of the game.  <BR>
<BR>
The games were usually over in about three turns, except<BR>
the last game, when my team holed up in the forward section<BR>
of the free trader, which has only one entrance.  Kristian<BR>
was seriously reviewing the rules on breaching bulkheads<BR>
for a while.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:30:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
>I was under the impression that "Tractics" (WWII armor miniatures rules)<BR>
was the first TSR product, but now that I'm typing it the thought has<BR>
occured that perhaps "Tractics" was originally published by a different<BR>
company and later re-printed by TSR (in the same manner as "Chainmail"), in<BR>
which case the wood-grain-box D&D set would be first.<BR>
><BR>
> NOTE:  Take anything I say here with a large grain of salt; all of this<BR>
was occuring before I was born (Nov. 74)!<BR>
><BR>
> Trent<BR>
<BR>
TSR didn't publish Tractics and Chainmail first? Who did? I missed the very<BR>
early history of gaming, since I only started playing in 1976. At least I<BR>
can blame TSR for the considerable time which *I* wasted on these games,<BR>
since I had their versions.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:41:20 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Striker at Kristian Miller's<BR>
<BR>
Mongo/Jewell/Spinward Marches<BR>
115-1105<BR>
<BR>
In a daring daylight raid, Ine Givar terrorists today<BR>
kidnapped the local representative of Bowman Sleinad<BR>
Outwater LIC, a major agricultural concern.  According to<BR>
Weilim Grau, Chief Inspector of the Special Criminal<BR>
Investigation Division, the grav limo carrying Hominee<BR>
Stvi, the general manager of BSO Mongo, the local<BR>
subsidiary of BSO, to her office in Mingo City had landed<BR>
at the edge of the exclusive Amonos Estates subdivision,<BR>
where many off-world corporate executives live, apparently<BR>
to investigate a technical problem.  Three civilian<BR>
air/rafts swooped to the spot from hidden locations and<BR>
took Ms. Stvi and her driver after a brief struggle.  Chief<BR>
Inspector Grau declined to state the source of his<BR>
information regarding the specifics of the kidnapping.<BR>
<BR>
Several hours later, the Ine Givar took credit for the<BR>
kidnapping, announcing that it would broadcast its demands<BR>
shortly.  The Ine Givar provided a holo of Ms. Stvi<BR>
indicating that she was alive and healthy.  <BR>
<BR>
General Totorro Sanchez, Commander of the Army of the<BR>
Planet Mongo, issued a terse statement that "the Army is<BR>
mobilizing to address this threat."<BR>
<BR>
The Ine Givar have not undertaken a major operation on<BR>
Mongo since 1103, when their attempt to destroy the Mongo<BR>
Stock Exchange was foiled by a pre-emptive strike by the<BR>
Mongo Armored Battalion, acting in coordination with<BR>
Imperial Naval Intelligence.  Since then, Ine Givar<BR>
activity on Mongo has been limited to dissemination of<BR>
subversive materials.  <BR>
<BR>
Ms. Stvi is the granddaughter of Imperial Admiral Hector<BR>
Stvi.  A spokesperson for the Imperial Navy had no comment,<BR>
characterizing the situation as "an internal, local<BR>
matter."  <BR>
<BR>
- -o-<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:59:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Joe Lachance" <Lachance@nc.rr.com><BR>
Subject: re: OT? sex-change pheromones and inbreeding<BR>
<BR>
> "Males" change to "female" at the end of the period equal to their<BR>
> menstrual cycle time when "female", *or* upon exposure (*close*<BR>
> exposure) to some pheromone or similar compound associated with<BR>
> menstruation.<BR>
<BR>
I can envision a wee bit of a problem with this.  There happens to be a<BR>
tendency of women living together to have cycles in sync (pheremones being<BR>
the culprit).  This might pose some difficulty in a couple having<BR>
cycles/genders that are 180 degrees opposite.<BR>
<BR>
Joe<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:18:20 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
To keep this from becoming a multi-headed thread, this is a double response.<BR>
<BR>
Trent wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I was under the impression that "Tractics" (WWII armor miniatures rules)<BR>
>was the first TSR product, but now that I'm typing it the thought has<BR>
>occured that perhaps "Tractics" was originally published by a different<BR>
>company and later re-printed by TSR (in the same manner as "Chainmail"), in<BR>
>which case the wood-grain-box D&D set would be first.<BR>
<BR>
Luther wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>TSR didn't publish Tractics and Chainmail first? Who did? I missed the very<BR>
>early history of gaming, since I only started playing in 1976. At least I<BR>
>can blame TSR for the considerable time which *I* wasted on these games,<BR>
>since I had their versions.<BR>
<BR>
I think that "Chainmail" was released around '69 or so, and "Tractics"<BR>
around '71. I know that both of them were published by Guidon Games<BR>
initially. When Guidon folded, Tactical Studies Rules picked up the rights<BR>
to both. I think that the Tactical Studies Rules version of "Tractics" was<BR>
published sometime in '75 and their version of "Chainmail" was published a<BR>
little after.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:23:32 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: First In; Planet Generation....<BR>
<BR>
- --============_-1250676283==_ma============<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"<BR>
<BR>
It mentions life could exist in subsurface water on an icy rockball. <BR>
Where do you determine if an icy rockball has subsurface water?<BR>
<BR>
It has an entry for the albedo of a rockball with sulfur vocanoes? <BR>
Where do you decide if an icy rockball has sulfur volcanoes?<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
- --============_-1250676283==_ma============<BR>
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"<BR>
<BR>
<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param>It mentions life could exist in<BR>
subsurface water on an icy rockball.  Where do you determine if an icy<BR>
rockball has subsurface water?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It has an entry for the albedo of a rockball with sulfur vocanoes? <BR>
Where do you decide if an icy rockball has sulfur volcanoes?<BR>
</fontfamily><BR>
<BR>
<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param>______________________________<BR>
<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)</fontfamily><BR>
<BR>
- --============_-1250676283==_ma============--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:33:48 GMT<BR>
From: stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>
Subject: Re: Privateers<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>That's the point, it *doesn't* say that. It specifies who they can and<BR>
>can't "get. It also requires them to get the prizes taken "condemned"<BR>
>by an Admiralty court. Which means that the *Crown* get's a fair sized<BR>
>chunk of the value of the prize.<BR>
<BR>
I thought it was the Crown who actually *bought* the ships from the<BR>
privateers?  The purpose of the Court of Admiralty was to set the<BR>
price.<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:45:45 +0100<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Corporate Profiles (quick question)<BR>
<BR>
John Groth <wombat@premier.net> asked,<BR>
>Which term best describes the production of starships:  Manufacturing or<BR>
>Construction?  This question has obvious implications for the UCP in<BR>
>general, and AuricTech's UCP in particular.<BR>
<BR>
Manufacturing. If in doubt, you can consult the SIC (and for SF elements<BR>
pick the nearest modern-day analogue):<BR>
        http://www.census.gov/epcd/www/sic.html<BR>
or<BR>
        http://www.sacto.org/esbd/siccodes.htm<BR>
or several other locations.<BR>
<BR>
Under Manufacturing: Transportation Equipment, you find categories for<BR>
"Aircraft", "Ship Building and Repairing" and "Guided Missiles and Space<BR>
Vehicles". If you think none of those cover it, there's always<BR>
"Transportation Equipment Not Elsewhere Classified"... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
 <BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) tg+ ru ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:43:24 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: First In; Planet Generation....<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/19/00 4:26:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
> It mentions life could exist in subsurface water on an icy rockball. <BR>
>  Where do you determine if an icy rockball has subsurface water?<BR>
>  <BR>
>  It has an entry for the albedo of a rockball with sulfur vocanoes? <BR>
>  Where do you decide if an icy rockball has sulfur volcanoes?<BR>
<BR>
Page 69, under the discussion of Icy Rockball worlds, gives a simple die-roll <BR>
mechanism for determining which of these (if any) holds.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:20:42 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Character Sketches OT:<BR>
<BR>
At 13:43 -0400 19/6/00, Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
> > Does Tien hunt heads at all? ;-)<BR>
>Not yet but he might if there was money in it, he's Neutral<BR>
>(selfish). Given that head hunting is probably illegal and<BR>
>the fine for murder is 50,000 gold in Darokin, his home country,<BR>
>he's not liable to collect any evidence that can be used against<BR>
>him.<BR>
<BR>
;-) Tien is a chaos god in the Gloranthan (RQ/Hero Wars) mythos who <BR>
has a nasty habit of stealing heads and bind souls to them. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
>Nice picture, I like what you did with the runes.<BR>
<BR>
About ten minutes with Photoshop 4, but it made a difference.<BR>
<BR>
>Branaugh<BR>
>does seem a little young to be playing a 21 year lunar army<BR>
>veteran though. Are your fellow players ignorant of Mr. Branaugh<BR>
>or do you actually look like him?<BR>
<BR>
He is probably a little young, but was the closest to what I wanted. <BR>
Of course, I hadn't seen Gladiator then...<BR>
<BR>
I have short blond hair a bit like him in that film, but I think I'm <BR>
taller. However, bear in mind it's a poor scan (the source was <BR>
half-toned) and they have seen pictures of me with re-enactment gear <BR>
on. The only shot of me I know of on the web is on the BITS site on <BR>
the Travelling page's linked photos. And I'm a good one and a half <BR>
stone heavier there (it prompted a weight loss effort). So I can <BR>
understand the mistake...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------<BR>
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion<BR>
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.<BR>
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -<BR>
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's<BR>
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:09:20 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
At 8:11 -0400 19/6/00, "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com> wrote:<BR>
>Nope, never had Kermit.<BR>
<BR>
Well, if you can get your hands on a M155-P1GG-Y cable adaptor you <BR>
may be able to use that in some way with a G0-n2o's assistance to get <BR>
hold of Kermit.<BR>
<BR>
Dom (they made me do it).<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:03:48 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: High Guard fusion discussion now on CT-Starships<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
If it's of interest to you, the CT Starships list on EGroups has <BR>
started to run with the Fusion drive in HG2 discussion. At the moment <BR>
we're starting to look at the underlying technology assumptions in <BR>
HG2 and Striker1, and compare them to MT and FFS from which we were <BR>
hoping to steal the basic assumptions. Come along and bring a <BR>
calculator if you're interested... ;-) <only joking><BR>
<BR>
All I will say is that this is a High Guard list not an <BR>
MT/GT/T4.x/TNE list. Thruster plates rule ;-) (but we like the idea <BR>
of fusion rockets!)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 17:06:46 -0000<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Announcement<BR>
<BR>
WAY TO GO MJ!!!!! Congradulations on your publication, said with heart felt<BR>
sincerity.<BR>
<BR>
Thom <The unpublished> Harris<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 4:36 PM<BR>
Subject: Announcement<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> My novel, Behind the Throne, is available as of NOW from Highbridge Press.<BR>
><BR>
> www.highbridgepress.com<BR>
><BR>
> Availability through Amazon will take 1-2 more weeks.<BR>
><BR>
> OBTRAV?  You have to be kidding.....<BR>
><BR>
> MJD<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:17:53 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: High Guard fusion discussion now on CT-Starships<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney writes:<BR>
<BR>
> All I will say is that this is a High Guard list not an <BR>
> MT/GT/T4.x/TNE list. Thruster plates rule ;-) (but we like the idea <BR>
> of fusion rockets!)<BR>
<BR>
Heh.  I like the idea that high guard manuever drives are apparently volume-based rather than mass-based in the first place.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:27:27 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: High Guard fusion discussion now on CT-Starships<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> SD Mooney writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > All I will say is that this is a High Guard list not an <BR>
> > MT/GT/T4.x/TNE list. Thruster plates rule ;-) (but we like the idea <BR>
> > of fusion rockets!)<BR>
> <BR>
> Heh.  I like the idea that high guard manuever drives are apparently <BR>
> volume-based rather than mass-based in the first place.<BR>
<BR>
Since the canonical "High Guard" design rules assume reactionless maneuver<BR>
drives, I have no problem with them being strictly volume-based, since a<BR>
suitable line of techno-babble can always be spun out to justify them.  <BR>
If, however, you're trying to introduce reaction drives there's no good<BR>
excuse for not using mass-based acceleration calculations.<BR>
<BR>
                                                            - J. Ranynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:35:30 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Sealand stuff<BR>
<BR>
FWIW there have been some recent developments on the thread about <BR>
Sealand - apparently, a North American who flew into the UK and told <BR>
immigration he was going to Sealand to work was deported last week - <BR>
reason given was lack of a valid work permit, so it looks like the UK <BR>
is indirectly claiming jurisdiction and ownership of the ex-AA <BR>
platform.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:45:42 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Robert O'Connor <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
To: TML <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 3:34 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : body mods (longish)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry, I'm rambling.<BR>
> <BR>
You may be rambling, but shouldn't be sorry for it. I've been reading Blue Planet recently and find all this very interesting and useful.<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 23:04:59 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: XML (was: system data format)<BR>
<BR>
I've got it - I'll send you a copy. At the moment, I'm working on a<BR>
new version, based on Schema rather than DTD and trying to mak a bit<BR>
more sense of it (like date ranges, searchable indexing and so on),<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>
Email     : mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
Website : www.mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Michael<BR>
> Koehne<BR>
> Sent: 17 June 2000 16:04<BR>
> To: Rob Eaglestone; traveller@mpgn.com<BR>
> Subject: XML (was: system data format)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Moin Rob Eaglestone,<BR>
><BR>
> > So you see no choices but to be either very abstract or do<BR>
> > the overkill thing and risk never finishing.  No wonder<BR>
> > you're worried.  I'd suggest a format related to this:<BR>
><BR>
>   the canon DGP sector format was :<BR>
><BR>
> #-----------------------------------CUT<BR>
> HERE-----------------------------------#<BR>
> GUSHEMEGE SECTOR<BR>
><BR>
> The data in the sector text files is laid out in column format:<BR>
><BR>
>  1-14: Name<BR>
> 15-18: HexNbr<BR>
> 20-28: UWP<BR>
>    31: Bases<BR>
> 33-47: Codes & Comments<BR>
>    49: Zone<BR>
> 52-54: PBG<BR>
> 56-57: Allegiance<BR>
> 59-74: Stellar Data<BR>
><BR>
> ....+....1....+....2....+....3....+....4....+....5....+....6<BR>
> ....+....7....+....8<BR>
> #-----------------------------------CUT<BR>
> HERE-----------------------------------#<BR>
><BR>
>   This format is XML look like but invalid! The '#' is<BR>
> !NOT! a comment<BR>
>   character in XML.<BR>
><BR>
> >    #<BR>
> >    #   System description for Darrian<BR>
> >    #<BR>
> >    #   All of the following data are optional.<BR>
> >    #   Who knows what will happen if none of them<BR>
> >    #   are there?<BR>
> >    #<BR>
> >    <name>Darrian</name><BR>
> >    <sector>Spinward Marches</sector><BR>
> >    <hex>0627</hex><BR>
> >    <orbits>default</orbits>    <!-- circular and Sol-distances --><BR>
> >    <mass>default</mass>    <!-- planets are 1.0, GGs are<BR>
> gas, etc. --><BR>
><BR>
> > And since I've snuck into XML here, do you have the<BR>
> > Traveller XML DTD?  It's out there, somewhere...<BR>
><BR>
>   I was thinking about basing my $CPAN->{'Games::Traveller'} on XML,<BR>
>   as I have profound knowledge on XML - see my .Sig - Could you give<BR>
>   me the URL of the 'Traveller XML DTD' ?<BR>
><BR>
> Bye Michael<BR>
> --<BR>
>   mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.?<BR>
> 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
>   http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO<BR>
> MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2627<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, June 19 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2628<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
URL for Sealand Story<BR>
re:  Striker at Kristian Miller's<BR>
Re: call for tender: vehicle & equipment designs<BR>
Re: High Guard fusion discussion now on CT-Starships<BR>
RE: Historic Tech<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
Re: Society and sex-change<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
SolSec info (Canon)<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re: SolSec info (Canon)<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Differences in Speed (was Re: )<BR>
GT:FT - Negative Current Price/Volume Results?<BR>
Re: XML (was: system data format)<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
Re: Society and sex-change (WAS: Inbreeding)<BR>
Re: GT:FT - Negative Current Price/Volume Results?<BR>
Re: Differences in Speed (was Re: )<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:46:29 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: URL for Sealand Story<BR>
<BR>
here's the BBC news URL on the general background.<BR>
<BR>
http://news6.thdo.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid%5F778000/778267.stm<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:20:01 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Striker at Kristian Miller's<BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
>Mongo/Jewell/Spinward Marches115-1105<BR>
>In a daring daylight raid, Ine Givar terrorists today<BR>
>kidnapped the local representative of Bowman Sleinad<BR>
>Outwater LIC, a major agricultural concern.<BR>
<BR>
Striker scenario #1<BR>
<BR>
Mongo player:<BR>
<BR>
Opening units:<BR>
one platoon of grav infantry, TL 10, consisting of<BR>
four air/rafts (2 w/7 mm gatling gun; 1 w/VRF gauss gun; 1<BR>
w/ auto RAM GL; all w/5000 km radio)<BR>
twelve troops (long service troops; 1 officer; 3 NCOs),<BR>
armed with ACRs (9mm DS & HE) and Laser Rifles (3:1); cloth<BR>
armor; 20km helmet radios<BR>
<BR>
Mission:  interdict all vehicular traffic on game board;<BR>
search for unauthorized weapons, papers out of order, and<BR>
evidence of relationship w/Ine Givar and specifically with<BR>
kidnappers of Hominee Stvi.  Do not injure any civilians.<BR>
<BR>
potential reinforcements:  <BR>
one platoon of grav tanks from Mongo Armored Battalion<BR>
one squad of Imperial Marines from Navy Base Mongo<BR>
ortillery from satellite-based weapons system<BR>
<BR>
Ine Givar player:<BR>
<BR>
Resources:<BR>
Many dummy vehicles (i.e., genuine civilian traffic)<BR>
Ine Givar elite squad (12 total, including 2 officers and 1<BR>
Zhodani advisor; armed with ACRS 9mm DS and HE and HEAP<BR>
rifle grenades; one laser pistol)<BR>
Hominee Stvi<BR>
<BR>
Mission:  Get a vehicle with Hominee Stvi off the other<BR>
side of the game table.  Extra victory points if the Mongo<BR>
force is not in hot pursuit.<BR>
<BR>
possible reinforcements:<BR>
three Ine Givar regular squads w/armed air/rafts<BR>
off-map laser-guided artillery<BR>
<BR>
Just a thought.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:21:57 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: call for tender: vehicle & equipment designs<BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: call for Striker vehicle & equipment designs<BR>
...<BR>
>If you have any designs (vehicles, artillery, drones,<BR>
>whatever) that you would like us to break, please email<BR>
>them to me, preferably in ASCII text format.  We'll post<BR>
>reports to the TML each month.  <BR>
<BR>
  What sorts of designs? - TL is the obvious question...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:21:02 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: High Guard fusion discussion now on CT-Starships<BR>
<BR>
At 17:45 -0400 19/6/00,  "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu> wrote:<BR>
>Since the canonical "High Guard" design rules assume reactionless maneuver<BR>
>drives, I have no problem with them being strictly volume-based, since a<BR>
>suitable line of techno-babble can always be spun out to justify them.<BR>
>If, however, you're trying to introduce reaction drives there's no good<BR>
>excuse for not using mass-based acceleration calculations.<BR>
<BR>
Which is why the draft set of calcs I reposted here following your <BR>
email include mass based acceleration.<BR>
<BR>
FWIW MT assumes 10T/dt for civilian vessels and 30T/dt for military <BR>
(averaged from Imperial Encyclopedia).<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:41:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Historic Tech<BR>
<BR>
Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
>> One idea that I have been playing with is that once the Xboat<BR>
>> system is in place, it might become advantageous for a large<BR>
>> organization (saaaay...like the Navy?) to set up a parallel<BR>
>> system using J-5 or (just previous to the SRW) J-6, with the<BR>
>> station sited to use the drives to their maximum efficiency<BR>
>> (in other words, as close to 5 or 6 parsecs apart as possible).<BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>It's been done!  According to GDW a corporation by  the  name  of<BR>
>Imperialines runs a fleet of slow  moving  freight  haulers.  But<BR>
>they also have a few special vessels:  indistinguishable  to  the<BR>
>casual eye from their normal Type-TI,  the  Type-TJs  are  jump-6<BR>
>capable.  They allowed Duke Norris (in  MT)  to  receive  advance<BR>
>notice of the assassination of  Strephon  ahead  of  the  general<BR>
>public (who use the xboat-based TAS News Service).<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	What I had in mind was more of a pony-express relay like the Xboat system<BR>
uses, which would speed up the information rate a fair bit over several hops<BR>
by eliminating the time required to move from the jump distance to the<BR>
refueling point (surface or station) and back, and filling up.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - Don't try to blame my employer for my stupid opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:04:39 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
Some people have no shame...:)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "SD Mooney" <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 2:09 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 8:11 -0400 19/6/00, "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com> wrote:<BR>
> >Nope, never had Kermit.<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, if you can get your hands on a M155-P1GG-Y cable adaptor you <BR>
> may be able to use that in some way with a G0-n2o's assistance to get <BR>
> hold of Kermit.<BR>
> <BR>
> Dom (they made me do it).<BR>
> <BR>
> ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
> "We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
> can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
> http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:38:24 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Society and sex-change<BR>
<BR>
"Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  My recollection is a bit fuzzy, but about three-four years ago there<BR>
>  was an<BR>
> article in the Los Angeles Times about some research that was being<BR>
> done in gender-identity/brain structure.  It seems that near the base<BR>
> of the brain, somewhere around the pituitary gland/limbic system fun<BR>
> spots, there is a small organ about the size of a grain of rice.  The<BR>
> researchers did not know what it did or how it functioned, but after<BR>
> numerous autopsies, they found an extremely strong correlation between<BR>
> the size of that structure and the person's (former) gender identity. <BR>
> It was measureably smaller in women than it was in men.  It was found<BR>
> to be smaller in males who had undergone sex-change operations, but<BR>
> IIRC, they were unsure if it was originally smaller, or had shrunk<BR>
> after the operation.  Interestingly enough, one's sexual orientation<BR>
> had no correlation with the size of this structure; it was as large in<BR>
> homosexual males as it was in heterosexual males.<BR>
>  In other words, there _may_be_ an 'innate sense of<BR>
>  maleness/femaleness',<BR>
> and it may be related to the structure of the brain.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps, but unlikely from that data-point.  My guess would be that <BR>
the size of this structure is related in some way to testosterone or <BR>
estrogen levels.  Having known a number of Female to Male and <BR>
Male to Female transsexuals who are both pre and post op, I've <BR>
seen how changing your hormones can greatly alter your  body.<BR>
Fat, muscle, and hair distribution all significantly alter, as does <BR>
genital structure, and even cartilage growth to some extent.    <BR>
<BR>
On a related note, it was recently discovered that marine iguanas <BR>
can alter their size in response to environmental stimuli, not only <BR>
could they grow, they could also shrink (not merely getting thinner, <BR>
but shorter and smaller-boned).  Add a few TL's and making tall <BR>
people short and short people tall seems quite possible.  Bones, <BR>
like everything else in the body, are continually rebuilt, so causing <BR>
them to grow shorter, or longer over time may be quite difficult, but <BR>
is clearly not impossible.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:29:28 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
On 06/19/00 at 11:00 AM,  howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng) said:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>I suspect kermit will be simpler. But I may look up that reference,<BR>
>>because I've got a couple of friends who still have their old C-64<BR>
>>systems, even though they use PCs now.<BR>
<BR>
>What's a Kermit in this case?<BR>
<BR>
Kermit is a piece of software, a communications protocol, like XModem, YModem, or ZModem. If both systems have modems you should be able to use comm software to send the files from one system to another.<BR>
<BR>
>And will it work for a C128 in C64 mode?<BR>
<BR>
Sure, if you can find software for the C128 (or C64) that implements it.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:47:19 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: SolSec info (Canon)<BR>
<BR>
Greetings all.<BR>
<BR>
I am looking for 'canon' material on SolSec for the SolSec website<BR>
(http://solsec.org).  If you can point me in the right direction, I would be<BR>
most appreciative.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, SolSec related submissions are welcome and appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Tod<BR>
(Still seeking 'cats and rats')<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:48:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/19/00 5:50 AM, kraehe@copyleft.de issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> This would also mean a game without jumpdrive and without graph technology.<BR>
<BR>
Is that why we see so many hexgrids? ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:36:25 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: SolSec info (Canon)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Greetings all.<BR>
> <BR>
> I am looking for 'canon' material on SolSec for the SolSec website<BR>
> (http://solsec.org).  If you can point me in the right direction, I would be<BR>
> most appreciative.<BR>
<BR>
Well, sir, just remain patient, and GT: Rim of Fire will show up in your<BR>
FLGS.  There's some good material about SolSec.  Although much of it is<BR>
from the sadly mis-informed ImpSymp point of view, there is also<BR>
material to support the loyal Solomani view.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
The above message does not represent the views of the management of<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards.  The poster has been transferred to the TL12<BR>
support division.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:51:03 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
On 06/19/00 at 10:30 AM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>John P. Raynor writes:<BR>
>> I've got copies of both the "T4" edition of "Fire, Fusion, and Steel" <BR>
>> and the "Standard Ship Design System," and have calculated the densities<BR>
>> of just about everything *except* for weapons and that most ill-defined<BR>
>> of "High Guard" components, the "bridge."  I suppose the "right" way to<BR>
>> solve this problem (at least as far as the weapons are concerned) is to<BR>
>> use "Fire, Fusion, and steel" to actually *design* an array of warlike<BR>
>> bits and pieces, at various Tech Levels, and then do the necessary<BR>
>> division to calculate their densities.<BR>
<BR>
>Heh.  However, I suspect estimating 14 tons/dT for weaponry, and about<BR>
>5/dT for the bridge (which includes substantial open space) will get your<BR>
>weight averages close enough (within a few percent).<BR>
<BR>
For ease of use, I'd make it 10 tons per dton for weapons and 5 tons per dton of bridge. I think you'll be close enough for an HG type system using those numbers. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:34:34 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Differences in Speed (was Re: )<BR>
<BR>
On 06/19/00 at 09:57 AM,  Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
>> > The advantage of travelling at near-c speeds versus a foe that was<BR>
>> > significantly slower would be overwhelming--somewhat along the lines<BR>
>> > of jet fighters versus prop fighters.<BR>
 <BR>
>> Nope, there's *no* advantage whatsoever. Because if you maintain a<BR>
>> constant velocity, you can be hit dead center by a laser or PAW at<BR>
>> *any* range.<BR>
>> And as I showed above, the distance you can evade by depends on range,<BR>
>> and on your acceleration, *nothing* else.<BR>
<BR>
>Yes but if you are traveling faster you will be within range for a<BR>
>shorter period of time.<BR>
<BR>
And *your* weapons will be in range of the other ship for the same<BR>
length of time.  It's all relative.  <g> <BR>
<BR>
Yes, the higher the sum of the velocities the shorter the time they<BR>
will be within some range of each other, but it's not like the<BR>
faster will have an advantage.  The advantage still goes to the ship<BR>
that can accellerate most and change direction of acceleration<BR>
relative to it's size...agility rather than raw speed.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose lightly armored ships might want to make fast passes to<BR>
limit the number of hits they take.  Of course, they would do less<BR>
damage doing that too, but it might be a reasonable tactic in some<BR>
cases.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:36:50 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: GT:FT - Negative Current Price/Volume Results?<BR>
<BR>
This reply has also been sent to the newsgroups.<BR>
I was creating a spreadsheet to generate a GM's Price Series Record<BR>
(GT:Far Trader p.40) when I noticed that the equations on p.24-25<BR>
can produce negative current prices and volumes. What does that mean<BR>
in game terms? Do you a) save these theoretical negative values to<BR>
base next week's calculations on, or b) reset the negative value to<BR>
zero and start from there?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |       Uncle Duke torments the cat. FNORD!        |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:30:37 -0500<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: Re: XML (was: system data format)<BR>
<BR>
Are there any programs written that recognize this data format?  And what<BR>
about worlds that have more than one type of base.  Droyne worlds for<BR>
example can have more than one base code.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Michael Koehne" <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
To: "Rob Eaglestone" <downport@home.com>; <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 10:03 AM<BR>
Subject: XML (was: system data format)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Moin Rob Eaglestone,<BR>
><BR>
> > So you see no choices but to be either very abstract or do<BR>
> > the overkill thing and risk never finishing.  No wonder<BR>
> > you're worried.  I'd suggest a format related to this:<BR>
><BR>
>   the canon DGP sector format was :<BR>
><BR>
> #-----------------------------------CUT<BR>
HERE-----------------------------------#<BR>
> GUSHEMEGE SECTOR<BR>
><BR>
> The data in the sector text files is laid out in column format:<BR>
><BR>
>  1-14: Name<BR>
> 15-18: HexNbr<BR>
> 20-28: UWP<BR>
>    31: Bases<BR>
> 33-47: Codes & Comments<BR>
>    49: Zone<BR>
> 52-54: PBG<BR>
> 56-57: Allegiance<BR>
> 59-74: Stellar Data<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
....+....1....+....2....+....3....+....4....+....5....+....6....+....7....+.<BR>
...8<BR>
> #-----------------------------------CUT<BR>
HERE-----------------------------------#<BR>
><BR>
>   This format is XML look like but invalid! The '#' is !NOT! a comment<BR>
>   character in XML.<BR>
><BR>
> >    #<BR>
> >    #   System description for Darrian<BR>
> >    #<BR>
> >    #   All of the following data are optional.<BR>
> >    #   Who knows what will happen if none of them<BR>
> >    #   are there?<BR>
> >    #<BR>
> >    <name>Darrian</name><BR>
> >    <sector>Spinward Marches</sector><BR>
> >    <hex>0627</hex><BR>
> >    <orbits>default</orbits>    <!-- circular and Sol-distances --><BR>
> >    <mass>default</mass>    <!-- planets are 1.0, GGs are gas, etc. --><BR>
><BR>
> > And since I've snuck into XML here, do you have the<BR>
> > Traveller XML DTD?  It's out there, somewhere...<BR>
><BR>
>   I was thinking about basing my $CPAN->{'Games::Traveller'} on XML,<BR>
>   as I have profound knowledge on XML - see my .Sig - Could you give<BR>
>   me the URL of the 'Traveller XML DTD' ?<BR>
><BR>
> Bye Michael<BR>
> --<BR>
>   mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.?<BR>
'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
>   http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:44:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Say, why don't we base the game on ion drives? <not serious><BR>
><BR>
>   This would also mean a game without jumpdrive and without graph technology.<BR>
<BR>
Why?<BR>
<BR>
>   I would call this kind of scenario 'time escapies' as most elite crews had<BR>
>   been started as greenhorns some 1000 years ago to escape their future.<BR>
<BR>
I get the impression you are thinking of ion drives as *interstellar*<BR>
drives, not interplanetary ones.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:46:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Commodore 64<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>>I suspect kermit will be simpler. But I may look up that reference,<BR>
>>because I've got a couple of friends who still have their old C-64<BR>
>>systems, even though they use PCs now.<BR>
><BR>
> What's a Kermit in this case?<BR>
<BR>
It's a "freeware" file transfer protocol designed many years back at<BR>
Columbia University to alllow file transfers over *any* kind of link.<BR>
It can do binary transfers over links with some pretty lousy limits.<BR>
Stuff like text only links (ie no high-ASCI, and no control<BR>
characters).<BR>
<BR>
The versions of Kermit for a number of older 8-bit systems include a<BR>
full terminal emulator as well. <BR>
<BR>
> And will it work for a C128 in C64 mode?<BR>
<BR>
Either it does, or there's a version for the C-128. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:51:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Society and sex-change (WAS: Inbreeding)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> There's an F.M. Busby story ("The Breeds of Man"?) which involves a<BR>
>> gene mod to immunize people against AIDS. Only it turns out to have a<BR>
>> slight flaw. It also immunizes a woman against *sperm* of a given blood<BR>
>> type (A, B, AB, O) after one pregnancy, even if she miscarries *early*.<BR>
>><BR>
>> This naturally leads to problems, so they are looking for a cure for<BR>
>> the cure. They come with a mod involving changes to the X and Y<BR>
>> chromosomes (resulting in what they call W and Z chrosomes).<BR>
>><BR>
>> This time, researchers are a lot more careful, and since this mod has<BR>
>> to be done to the egg/sperm, they get volunteers from the the (rather<BR>
>> close knit) company they work for.<BR>
>><BR>
>> It seems to be going fine, until the first of the kids hits puberty. At<BR>
>> which time "he" turns into a "she".<BR>
>><BR>
>> As I recall, the way it works is that after puberty, "females" change to<BR>
>> "male" if they ovaluate and the egg isn't fertilized and implanted.<BR>
>><BR>
>> "Males" change to "female" at the end of the period equal to their<BR>
>> menstrual cycle time when "female", *or* upon exposure (*close*<BR>
>> exposure) to some pheromone or similar compound associated with<BR>
>> menstruation.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Thus, a couple will stay "in synch" (and 180 degrees put of phase)<BR>
>> until one of them gets pregnant. Which locks both of them in their<BR>
>> male/female modes until the child is born (or maybe weaned? I forget).<BR>
>><BR>
>> Oh yeah, the changes in the external genitalia and breasts take a day<BR>
>> or so.<BR>
><BR>
> That would be the most tramuatic thing that could happen to a human<BR>
> being I can think of....my body doing a change like thin in 24  hours<BR>
> would would probably be painful...<BR>
<BR>
It's not painful, and the change isn't as major as you may think. The<BR>
"males" were noticed at birth to have something like an atrophied<BR>
uterus, but the doctors decided to leave it alone, since they weren't<BR>
really sure what effects the new genes were going to have down the<BR>
road, but since it didn't seem to be *hurting* anything, they left it<BR>
alone. So that can be left out of the "change".<BR>
<BR>
As for the other tissues/organs involved:<BR>
<BR>
Male		Female<BR>
- --------------	-------------<BR>
scrotum		labia minora<BR>
foreskin	clitoral hood<BR>
penis		clitoris<BR>
????[1]		vagina<BR>
testes[2]	ovaries[2]<BR>
<BR>
[1] I seem to recall the "uterus" in the "males" having what's called a<BR>
"blind vagina", ie a vaginal canal that doesn't connect to the outside.<BR>
<BR>
[2] I don't recall if they had seperate testes and ovaries or not.<BR>
<BR>
So, going from "male" to female, the penis shrinks to a nub (the<BR>
clitoris). The testes retract up the channels they originally descended<BR>
along from the abdomen. They can't produce sperm while retracted (the<BR>
temp is too high) but that's ok. <BR>
<BR>
The scrotum divides along the "seam", and the vaginal canal opens to<BR>
the outside. <BR>
<BR>
And the breasts start to enlarge. Note that the "females" tend to A & B<BR>
cups, while the "males tend to have "excess" fat up there. The actual<BR>
*glands* that produce the milk aren't all that big. Most of the breast<BR>
on human females is merely fat. <BR>
<BR>
The transition from "female" to "male" is pretty much the reverse.<BR>
<BR>
The changes actually take several days, but they are pretty obvious in<BR>
*hours*. At least the shrinkage or growth of the penis/clitoris is. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:28:12 -0500<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GT:FT - Negative Current Price/Volume Results?<BR>
<BR>
Dalton Spence wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This reply has also been sent to the newsgroups.<BR>
> I was creating a spreadsheet to generate a GM's Price Series Record<BR>
> (GT:Far Trader p.40) when I noticed that the equations on p.24-25<BR>
> can produce negative current prices and volumes. What does that mean<BR>
> in game terms? Do you a) save these theoretical negative values to<BR>
> base next week's calculations on, or b) reset the negative value to<BR>
> zero and start from there?<BR>
<BR>
    While this *can* happen, it's extremely unlikely if you use a regression<BR>
value of 0, and darned near impossible with a non-zero value, assuming you<BR>
don't have the volatility set very high.  Were I setting up the spreadsheet, I<BR>
wouldn't even bother worrying.  However, since that's a borderline-heretical<BR>
attitude on this list (g)...<BR>
<BR>
    What I'd recommend doing, if you're *really* that worried, is to set<BR>
absolute limits on the prices...some percentage of the norm above or which<BR>
prices won't go unless you *want* them to.  If the prices go outside this<BR>
range, set them to the limit value instead, and use that limit value for the<BR>
next set of calculations.  The regression value will tend to pull it back<BR>
toward center.  I suggest you read the sidebar on GT:FT p.36 for more<BR>
information.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:34:43 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Differences in Speed (was Re: )<BR>
<BR>
If a ship is firing missiles, travelling at near-c speeds could be a<BR>
significant advantage .  The ship being attacked would have much less time to<BR>
react than if the attacker was going slower.<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 06/19/00 at 09:57 AM,  Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> said:<BR>
><BR>
> >shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
> >> > The advantage of travelling at near-c speeds versus a foe that was<BR>
> >> > significantly slower would be overwhelming--somewhat along the lines<BR>
> >> > of jet fighters versus prop fighters.<BR>
><BR>
> >> Nope, there's *no* advantage whatsoever. Because if you maintain a<BR>
> >> constant velocity, you can be hit dead center by a laser or PAW at<BR>
> >> *any* range.<BR>
> >> And as I showed above, the distance you can evade by depends on range,<BR>
> >> and on your acceleration, *nothing* else.<BR>
><BR>
> >Yes but if you are traveling faster you will be within range for a<BR>
> >shorter period of time.<BR>
><BR>
> And *your* weapons will be in range of the other ship for the same<BR>
> length of time.  It's all relative.  <g><BR>
><BR>
> Yes, the higher the sum of the velocities the shorter the time they<BR>
> will be within some range of each other, but it's not like the<BR>
> faster will have an advantage.  The advantage still goes to the ship<BR>
> that can accellerate most and change direction of acceleration<BR>
> relative to it's size...agility rather than raw speed.<BR>
><BR>
> I suppose lightly armored ships might want to make fast passes to<BR>
> limit the number of hits they take.  Of course, they would do less<BR>
> damage doing that too, but it might be a reasonable tactic in some<BR>
> cases.<BR>
><BR>
> Eris<BR>
> --<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2628<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2629</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 20 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2629<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Differences in Speed (was Re: )<BR>
(no subject)<BR>
Re: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
Re: call for tender: vehicle & equipment designs<BR>
Re: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Re: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
RE: Vilani Women<BR>
Whoops...<BR>
RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Fractional c combat<BR>
Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Re: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Re: OT? sex-change pheromones and inbreeding<BR>
Re: Differences in Speed (was Re: )<BR>
Re: Historical Tech Levels<BR>
RE: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
Re: Society and sex-change (WAS: Inbreeding)<BR>
RE: Announcement<BR>
RE: TL of standard ships<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re: XML (was: system data format)<BR>
re: gender benders<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:48:24 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Differences in Speed (was Re: )<BR>
<BR>
On 06/19/00 at 09:34 PM,  Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>If a ship is firing missiles, travelling at near-c speeds could be a<BR>
>significant advantage .  The ship being attacked would have much less<BR>
>time to react than if the attacker was going slower.<BR>
<BR>
<smile> <BR>
<BR>
Okay, I'll buy that...if you have a ship travelling at near-c speeds<BR>
any missiles it fires will give another ship less time to react, but<BR>
also have less time to react itself.  I, personally, don't buy<BR>
near-c velocites as being practical or likely, though...so YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:56:25 -0500<BR>
From: Tom Meierhoff <kc130flier@home.com><BR>
Subject: (no subject)<BR>
<BR>
Unsubscribe traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:40:24 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Snapshot integrates the "to hit" and the "to penetrate"<BR>
> questions, so you compare weapon to armor to range on a<BR>
<BR>
A real good "beer and pretzels death-match" game.<BR>
<BR>
> of the free trader, which has only one entrance.  Kristian<BR>
> was seriously reviewing the rules on breaching bulkheads<BR>
> for a while.<BR>
<BR>
I would have done it too except for Erick's broadsword wielding maniac.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:43:16 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: call for tender: vehicle & equipment designs<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >If you have any designs (vehicles, artillery, drones,<BR>
> >whatever) that you would like us to break, please email<BR>
> >them to me, preferably in ASCII text format.  We'll post<BR>
> >reports to the TML each month.<BR>
> <BR>
>   What sorts of designs? - TL is the obvious question...<BR>
<BR>
It looks like we have a mixture of TL 5 to TL 15 equipment/miniatures. <BR>
Mostly centered around TL 9 and 15.  More is coming as we paint up more<BR>
minis this month.  I'll need to post my units to the "Striker @" thread.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:10:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>I apologize for the OT posting, but I don't know of a better collection of<BR>
>>people with extremely arcane knowledge of old gaming products.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Over the weekend I was looking at Warriors of Mars, an old TSR product<BR>
>>(rules for miniature battles as well as RPG-type adventures on ERB's<BR>
>>Barsoom), apparently released in 1974. In the introduction, Gary Gygax<BR>
>>refers to it as the first TSR product of its kind. Was this the very first<BR>
>>TSR product, or were there others before it?<BR>
<BR>
> I'm reasonably sure that the the woodgrain D&D set came out first, although<BR>
> I'm unsure if there were other products before it. If I remember my TSR lore<BR>
> correctly both "Warriors of Mars" and "Star Probe" came out just a little<BR>
> later. I'm unsure if they were published in 1974 or 1975. A good way to get<BR>
> a rough estimate of the date would be to take a look at the introduction and<BR>
> add a month or three to the date there. For example, the "Forward" [sic] for<BR>
> the little tan books was dated November 1st, 1973 but D&D wasn't published<BR>
> until early '74. This pattern is generally repeated in early TSR products.<BR>
> What I can say for certain is that "Warriors of Mars" came out somewhere<BR>
> between the beginning of 1974 and the end of 1975 when Tactical Studies<BR>
> Rules was replaced by TSR Hobbies, Inc. and the GK ("Gygax-Kaye") symbol was<BR>
> replaced by the cliched wizard symbol.<BR>
<BR>
Well, The first edition of D&D (which my first DM had) has references<BR>
to "monsters" from Warriors of Mars. And I seem to recall that The<BR>
Strategic Review had references to WoM before ones for D&D. <BR>
<BR>
In any case Chainmail (which I own) preceded *both*. Star probe was<BR>
definitely later, as I bought it when it came out, hoping it'd be<BR>
usable with D&D. <BR>
<BR>
The Burroughs estate *and* Tolkien's US publishers landed on TSR with<BR>
both feet. Warriors of Mars was pulled from the market, and D&D was<BR>
quickly edited to remove the references to items from Tolkien (Hobbits,<BR>
Ents) and Burroughs (White Apes, <and something else I can't recall>). <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:21:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Respirocytes could permit major sports records to be achieved,<BR>
<BR>
Nope. Because they'd be *just* as illegal as any other performance<BR>
enhancer.<BR>
<BR>
>> It would not be difficult to imagine military applications of this<BR>
>> technology. The ability to temporarily hold one's breath for several<BR>
>> minutes in the presence of smoke or noxious vapor until alternate  oxygen<BR>
>> sources became available would be welcomed.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that many war gases *don't* have to be inhaled. Mustard<BR>
gas acts on *skin* contact, as well as in the lungs. The lung burns are<BR>
harder to treat, but the skin damage (and *eye* damage) is no picnic. <BR>
<BR>
Nerve agents absorb thru the skin *anyway*. Respirocytes won't help at<BR>
all with this. <BR>
 <BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:20:57 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>That's a good question, and why aren't we discussing it on<BR>
>the Traveller Culture mailing list, which has lately been<BR>
>concerned with all things Vilani?<BR>
<BR>
"The rest is silence.", Hamlet<BR>
<BR>
Well, I suppose instead of griping about the distinct lack of "threadage" on<BR>
this topic, I might as well post some comments. Not surprisingly, we've<BR>
touched on this a bit before. I know that Kiri and I seemed to have the<BR>
greatest interest in the subject. Despite the fact that we rarely see eye to<BR>
eye on just about any topic, we did both agree on one thing: the hostile<BR>
nature of the environment on Vland would likely lead to a greater degree of<BR>
cooperation than that seen here on earth. If I recall correctly, we both<BR>
translated this into a more equalized set of relations between the sexes.<BR>
<BR>
We did differ on some of the finer points. I can't remember anyone else<BR>
really getting involved in the discussion, so I'm not sure if there are any<BR>
dissenting views out there. However, the discussion eventually ran out of<BR>
steam as Kiri and I were hashing out what place there was for the sexes in<BR>
early Vilani society. One of the things which I remember being a point of<BR>
contention was the difference between "matrilineal" and "matriarchal"<BR>
societies.<BR>
<BR>
I guess I'll restate my position, which may or may not be the same as my<BR>
previous position:<BR>
<BR>
For what it's worth, I do honestly believe that there are certain<BR>
fundamental differences between the sexes. At the risk of possibly being<BR>
branded a male chauvinist, I do sincerely believe that there are things<BR>
which women can do better than men and there are things which men can do<BR>
better than women. I believe that there are certain traits which men have<BR>
and certain traits which women have. In short, I do not believe that the two<BR>
sexes are interchangeable.<BR>
<BR>
To explicate my position, and to avoid the accusations of male chauvinism<BR>
which frequently come a-flying when I make such a statement, I'm not saying<BR>
that high-school girls should be interested in cooking and not football. I'm<BR>
not saying that men are intellectually better than women, nor am I saying<BR>
that men are physically more capable than women. While there are some<BR>
important physical differences which I will comment on shortly, I don't<BR>
believe that these are necessarily "important" differences. What I'm talking<BR>
about primarily are parenting roles. It is obvious, for example, that young<BR>
boys brought up with a single mother are significantly different than young<BR>
boys brought up with a single father, and both are significantly different<BR>
than a two parent family. The same goes for girls. I know that the general<BR>
differences have been studied and commented on at length. I would also think<BR>
that children who are raised by a "village" (which is not, as one poster<BR>
suggested, a recent development) would be significantly different than any<BR>
of the above.<BR>
<BR>
I guess my point is that I don't want to see the elimination of the<BR>
distinctions between the sexes among the Vilani. I do believe that certain<BR>
aspects of the "mother" role are "hard-wired" into women, and that certain<BR>
aspects of the "father" role are "hard-wired" into men. I must stress that I<BR>
do believe that some aspects of the modern notions of gender - "male" and<BR>
"female" - are socially constructed and can be changed.<BR>
<BR>
For the purposes of gaining an understanding of what the Vilani might have<BR>
been like in their prehistory, I've been relying on Marshall Sahlins'<BR>
extensive research on the San bushmen. As far as my own corner of detailing<BR>
the Vilani during their prehistory goes, here's the model which I'm working<BR>
with:<BR>
<BR>
As a general rule, men tend to undertake much of the hunting and fishing,<BR>
and some of the gathering. It would appear that a quick survey of other<BR>
primitive societies - and I don't mean the term "primitive" to be<BR>
insulting - this pattern tends to appear over and over again. Women take<BR>
care of the very youngest children and undertake the food preparation. I'm<BR>
consciously leaving the possibility open that shugilii might actually be<BR>
female. I want the stuff I write to be useful over a wide range of<BR>
interpretations. As I said in my explanatory note for the first draft of the<BR>
first bit of my piece on Vilani prehistory, I'm not fond of the<BR>
authoritative tone which Traveller materials frequently take.<BR>
<BR>
I'm also working on the assumption (which I'm sure that many won't agree<BR>
with) that Phillipe Aries, sociologist and author of "Centuries of<BR>
Childhood" is correct and that our modern notion of childhood is very young,<BR>
and that it has been brought about by literacy. His case is very convincing<BR>
and it certainly seems to match up with my use of the San as a base. This<BR>
has a cascade effect, because a redefinition of childhood also redefines<BR>
other age groupings.<BR>
<BR>
One of the things that I'm starting to discover is that the "wise old man"<BR>
and "wise old woman" are both extremely recent categories, appearing during<BR>
the Romantic movement. The unfortunate truth is that the old are frequently<BR>
left behind to die in hunter-gatherer societies and demonized in<BR>
agricultural societies. Of course, there's also the question of the Vilani<BR>
relation to time. They live longer than folks here on earth. I haven't<BR>
needed to worry about it too much with respect to prehistory because I've<BR>
assumed (perhaps wrongly) that physical ailments would appear at<BR>
approximately the same age.<BR>
<BR>
Okay. Hopefully this will be enough to spark a discussion on something.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:31:35 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Whoops...<BR>
<BR>
That last post was intended for the Traveller-Culture list. I only point<BR>
that out because some comments will certainly not make sense to people who<BR>
are not on the list. I'm actually quite confused as to how it ended up on<BR>
this list, as I was responding to Glenn's post on the Trav-Culture list.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm... The vagaries of internet communication.<BR>
<BR>
I would prefer to keep the discussion on that list, actually, as I find it<BR>
easier to keep up with as I sometimes go for days without reading some of<BR>
the posts on this list.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 02:22:24 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
>Well, The first edition of D&D (which my first DM had) has references<BR>
>to "monsters" from Warriors of Mars. And I seem to recall that The<BR>
>Strategic Review had references to WoM before ones for D&D.<BR>
<BR>
That would be the "white box" D&D set, which I have sitting in front of me.<BR>
The monsters of Barsoom are mentioned on the reference charts (on the<BR>
wandering monster tables). The inclusion of the extra non-stapled booklet of<BR>
reference charts marks it as a later release. The booklet of reference<BR>
charts was not included in the earliest woodgrain boxed set and the stats<BR>
and descriptions for the monsters were never included.<BR>
<BR>
>In any case Chainmail (which I own) preceded *both*.<BR>
<BR>
Guidon's Chainmail did. The Tactical Studies Rules Chainmail didn't. Out of<BR>
genuine curiosity (and an attempt to further my own knowledge of what<BR>
versions are out there), what logo does your copy of Chainmail have on the<BR>
cover, what's the date on the introduction, and what's the date on the<BR>
copyright?<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>The Burroughs estate *and* Tolkien's US publishers landed on TSR with<BR>
>both feet. Warriors of Mars was pulled from the market, and D&D was<BR>
>quickly edited to remove the references to items from Tolkien (Hobbits,<BR>
>Ents) and Burroughs (White Apes, <and something else I can't recall>).<BR>
<BR>
"Warriors of Mars" died a quiet death after one printing (making any info on<BR>
it scarce) while the D&D references to the monsters continued until at least<BR>
1977 (the date I estimate that my little tan books came off the presses<BR>
based on the release dates of the products advertised on the last page of<BR>
Volume 1: "Men & Magic"). Tolkien's people, of course, demanded that TSR<BR>
change the ent and the hobbit, and possibly the text for the orc and wight<BR>
as they're both clumsily pasted over with the same glaringly different<BR>
typeface used for the treant. All manner of Barsoomian critters are<BR>
referenced in the non-stapled booklet, but they never appeared in Volume 2:<BR>
"Monsters and Treasures".<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:40:53 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>>> The advantage of travelling at near-c speeds versus a foe that was<BR>
>>> significantly slower would be overwhelming--somewhat along the lines<BR>
>>> of jet fighters versus prop fighters.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Nope, there's *no* advantage whatsoever. Because if you maintain a<BR>
>> constant velocity, you can be hit dead center by a laser or PAW at<BR>
>> *any* range.<BR>
>> And as I showed above, the distance you can evade by depends on range,<BR>
>> and on your acceleration, *nothing* else.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes but if you are traveling faster you will be within range<BR>
> for a shorter period of time. Weapons in Traveller have a<BR>
> maximum range. The exact details will depend on the specific <BR>
> combat rules set you are using but it would seem to be preferable <BR>
> to be in the enemies firing range for less time so that<BR>
> they will have fewer chances to hit you although this will mean <BR>
> that you have fewer chances to hit them.<BR>
<BR>
The disadvantage to really high relative velocities is that if you are<BR>
moving really, really fast, it takes a longer time to change your<BR>
course by a given angle. Thus, they can be more certain that you'll<BR>
pass through a given region of space. Which means they can scatter<BR>
*dust* in it, and watch the dust, too fine for sensors to pick up, tear<BR>
your ship apart.<BR>
<BR>
Hell, *natural* dust will chew the hell out of you at that speed. Think<BR>
of a bird strike out a jet, only *trillions* of times worse.<BR>
<BR>
> For example if your enemy's weapons have a ten light second<BR>
> maximum range and you are moving at 0.5 C (relative to them)<BR>
> than you will be in range for no more than 40 seconds [1]. If<BR>
> you are stationary (relative to them) than you will be in range<BR>
> forever.<BR>
<BR>
If you are moving .5 c, you'll get to shoot at them for 40 seconds<BR>
about once a *month*. Work out how long it'll take to decelerate to a<BR>
stop, and then allow an equal time to accelerate back for another pass.<BR>
Then figure out how *far* you'll travel during the deceleration. <BR>
<BR>
> [1] Their weapons have a 10 LS range & therefore can fire at<BR>
> anything in a 20 LS diameter sphere. At 0.5 C is will take<BR>
> 40 seconds to traverse this sphere if the ships courses are<BR>
> at a right angle, otherwise it will take less time.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:00:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>      I was under the impression that "Tractics" (WWII armor miniatures <BR>
> rules) was the first TSR product, but now that I'm typing it the thought has <BR>
> occured that perhaps "Tractics" was originally published by a different <BR>
> company and later re-printed by TSR<BR>
>  (in the same manner as "Chainmail"), in which case the wood-grain-box D&D <BR>
> set would be first.<BR>
><BR>
> NOTE:  Take anything I say here with a large grain of salt; all of this was <BR>
> occuring before I was born (Nov. 74)!<BR>
<BR>
Gee, make me feel old why don't you?<BR>
<BR>
I was *playing* D&D back in 74. Our DM got the first set of the rules<BR>
ever shipped to the Pacific Northwest. And we played our first game not<BR>
that much later.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:05:19 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> To keep this from becoming a multi-headed thread, this is a double response.<BR>
><BR>
> Trent wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>I was under the impression that "Tractics" (WWII armor miniatures rules)<BR>
>>was the first TSR product, but now that I'm typing it the thought has<BR>
>>occured that perhaps "Tractics" was originally published by a different<BR>
>>company and later re-printed by TSR (in the same manner as "Chainmail"), in<BR>
>>which case the wood-grain-box D&D set would be first.<BR>
><BR>
> Luther wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>TSR didn't publish Tractics and Chainmail first? Who did? I missed the very<BR>
>>early history of gaming, since I only started playing in 1976. At least I<BR>
>>can blame TSR for the considerable time which *I* wasted on these games,<BR>
>>since I had their versions.<BR>
><BR>
> I think that "Chainmail" was released around '69 or so, and "Tractics"<BR>
> around '71. I know that both of them were published by Guidon Games<BR>
> initially. When Guidon folded, Tactical Studies Rules picked up the rights<BR>
> to both. I think that the Tactical Studies Rules version of "Tractics" was<BR>
> published sometime in '75 and their version of "Chainmail" was published a<BR>
> little after.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know about the original release, but TSR *was* selling<BR>
Chainmail at the same time D&D came out. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:08:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT? sex-change pheromones and inbreeding<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> "Males" change to "female" at the end of the period equal to their<BR>
>> menstrual cycle time when "female", *or* upon exposure (*close*<BR>
>> exposure) to some pheromone or similar compound associated with<BR>
>> menstruation.<BR>
><BR>
> I can envision a wee bit of a problem with this.  There happens to be a<BR>
> tendency of women living together to have cycles in sync (pheremones being<BR>
> the culprit).  This might pose some difficulty in a couple having<BR>
> cycles/genders that are 180 degrees opposite.<BR>
<BR>
Nope, it just "averages out" the two sets of cycles.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:58:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Differences in Speed (was Re: )<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> If a ship is firing missiles, travelling at near-c speeds could be a<BR>
> significant advantage .  The ship being attacked would have much less time to<BR>
> react than if the attacker was going slower.<BR>
<BR>
But at those velocities you have much less time to *aim* the missile,<BR>
and have to be almost exactly dead on target, because the missile's<BR>
drive can't change its flight path enough to matter. You might as well<BR>
use deadfall ordnance.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:37:11 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Historical Tech Levels<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
>Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> The advantages of TL 15 over TL 13 for<BR>
>> a type A Freetrader are minimal, <BR>
><BR>
>This is not true in MT.<BR>
><BR>
>> so I wouldn't expect the standard<BR>
>> designs for such vessels to be at TL 15.  <BR>
><BR>
>TL 15 power plants are half the size of TL 14 ones and a third <BR>
>the size of TL 13 ones in MT.<BR>
<BR>
I thought the double size was TL 13-14, treble at TL 11-12.<BR>
<BR>
<mumble><BR>
but I don't have any books handy<BR>
</mumble><BR>
<BR>
To counter this, your TL15 credits buy more ship at TL13 due to the<BR>
exchange rates.<BR>
<BR>
With HG/TCS, your best solution is to build the free trader at a TL9<BR>
B port. Freight it to a TL9 A port to fit the jump drive and then<BR>
ship in a TL15 power plant (with the TL9 backwards compatible power<BR>
couplings and computer interface).<BR>
<BR>
I think this also works in MT - although you would probably want to<BR>
ship in more high tech components.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 22:42:01 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: RE: Lungs (was body mods)<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote :-<BR>
> Perhaps Mr. O'Connor can comment further.<BR>
I shall attempt to clarify, but Ian's summary covers the main points.<BR>
Aside :-<BR>
Now I don't have a Ph.D., so I'm not a "Dr.", but I'm not a surgeon in<BR>
the British/Commonwealth tradition, so I'm not a "Mr." either. Call me<BR>
'Rob', 'yet another Rob', or anything else as long as it isn't too<BR>
abusive.<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
Now let's look at Bryan's crosspost.<BR>
> > Divers could operate at any depth for several hours without fear of<BR>
> > the bends or use of any external tank apparatus.<BR>
<BR>
No. There are problems with the high-pressure nervous syndrome.<BR>
Pressurisation makes you sleepy, then drunk and presumably dead. The<BR>
dose response curve hasn't been mapped out, but intoxication begins at<BR>
pressures above 3-4 atmospheres absolute (ATA).<BR>
<BR>
> > Respirocytes are medical nanomachines now in development that will<BR>
> > be able to deliver 236 times more oxygen to tissues per unit volume<BR>
> > than natural red cells.<BR>
<BR>
This assumes that the energy of oxidation of glucose will be sufficient<BR>
to release gases in a timely fashion to prevent people from becoming<BR>
'bent' by the contents of the respirocyte, since it's super-pressurised!<BR>
Pretty nifty machinery.<BR>
<BR>
> > A therapeutic dose of respirocytes reconfigured to absorb N2 instead<BR>
> > of O2/CO2 could allow complete decompression of an N2-saturated<BR>
> > human body from a depth of 26 meters in as little as 1 second,<BR>
> > although in practice full relief will require ~60 sec approximating<BR>
> > the circulation time of the blood.<BR>
<BR>
I take it that the respirocytes suck up the nitrogen so that the subject<BR>
isn't killed by diffusion hypoxia when the N2 is vented out through the<BR>
lungs. The implied gas kinetic model is optimistic (?based on red blood<BR>
cell diffusion coefficients for various gases?), given that current<BR>
theory uses 40-60 compartment models which are only fair to middling<BR>
good approximations.<BR>
<BR>
> > The ability to temporarily hold one's breath for several<BR>
> > minutes in the presence of smoke or noxious vapor until alternate<BR>
> >  oxygen sources became available would be welcomed.<BR>
<BR>
There are many factors which determine the ability to hold one's breath,<BR>
and tissue hypoxia plays second fiddle to hypercarbia. Thermal injuries<BR>
from smoke, and chemical injuries from the noxious vapor could be a far<BR>
bigger problem.<BR>
<BR>
I'm sorry, I find the Foresight Institute's stuff interesting, but in<BR>
the same class as a lot of other science fiction. I will be delighted if<BR>
any of this sort of stuff becomes available within my practising<BR>
lifetime.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 22:42:37 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Society and sex-change (WAS: Inbreeding)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
(of the interesting Busby story) :-<BR>
> The changes actually take several days, but they are pretty obvious in<BR>
> *hours*. At least the shrinkage or growth of the penis/clitoris is. <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
A more realistic timeframe is around 4-6 weeks. Noticeable change will<BR>
be evident by the end of 2-3 days.<BR>
<BR>
The time course of acute inflammation and tissue remodelling are pretty<BR>
constant in the absence of accelerants (e.g. tumour growth factors - but<BR>
these will just give you tumours).<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:46:47 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Announcement<BR>
<BR>
> My novel, Behind the Throne, is available as of NOW from Highbridge Press.<BR>
> www.highbridgepress.com<BR>
<BR>
Congratulations Martin, even though you've known about it for a while !<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:37:27 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: TL of standard ships<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
>Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote<BR>
>>The advantages of TL 15 over TL 13 for<BR>
>>a type A Freetrader are minimal, <BR>
>This is not true in MT.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I see.  I suppose that this is a problem when the standard<BR>
	designs were designed in CT and then translated.  In Book 2<BR>
	TL is not a consideration, and in HG2 it is a minor one for<BR>
	cargo tonnage.  Cost is probably at least as important, but<BR>
	that is another kettle of fish.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:04:26 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
Moin Leonard Erickson,<BR>
<BR>
> >> Say, why don't we base the game on ion drives? <not serious><BR>
> >   This would also mean a game without jumpdrive and without graph technology.<BR>
> Why?<BR>
<BR>
  to roll the thread back 'HePLAR is only broken in formular, TPlates are<BR>
  broken in concept', so if we want to throw anything out that is broken<BR>
  in concept - we need to throw jumpdrives and graph technology in the<BR>
  trashcan also.<BR>
<BR>
> >   I would call this kind of scenario 'time escapies' as most elite crews had<BR>
> >   been started as greenhorns some 1000 years ago to escape their future.<BR>
> <BR>
> I get the impression you are thinking of ion drives as *interstellar*<BR>
> drives, not interplanetary ones.<BR>
<BR>
  Yes, Ion drives for accelleration and bussard ram for break. This would<BR>
  give an other 'non traveller' SciFi scenario, similar to Alien or Lilly<BR>
  the Cat. Back to traveller - Weltenbund, v.d.Lubbe, C-Jammer, ... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:09:56 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: XML (was: system data format)<BR>
<BR>
Moin shimmer,<BR>
<BR>
> Are there any programs written that recognize this data format?  And what<BR>
> about worlds that have more than one type of base.  Droyne worlds for<BR>
> example can have more than one base code.<BR>
<BR>
  many Traveller programs are able to import canon DGP2 sectors.<BR>
<BR>
  e.g. http://traveller.copyleft.de/3rd-survey/html/classic.html<BR>
<BR>
  I wont think that the new XML based format is yet processed by<BR>
  any program. So as XML based sector format is 'pure vaporware',<BR>
  we should upload it to OASIS to share place with the XML/EDI<BR>
  vaporware of M$ ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:17:45 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: gender benders<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>> Glenn Goffin  wrote:<BR>
>>> That reminds me of a short story by Marco Vassi, which<BR>
>>> concerned a man who considered himself straight, but was<BR>
>>> tormented by attraction to and desire for other men. <BR>
>>> Eventually change his sex, thinking that if he were a woman<BR>
>>> it would be great to be attracted to men.  <BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> However, on her first night out as a woman, she found<BR>
>>> herself irrestibly drawn to a beautiful woman who was<BR>
>>> sitting by the bar making eyes at her.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Does anybody else not see the problem here? ;)<BR>
<BR>
>Oh, I see it all right.<BR>
<BR>
>Then again, I've talked with enough TG/TS folks to realize that gender<BR>
>and sexual orientation are at best *loosely* connected if they are<BR>
>connected at all.<BR>
<BR>
No problem here.  The main character was probably attracted to sex partners<BR>
that were "wrong" for him - ones he didn't see himself having kids, family,<BR>
long-term relationship with, etc*.  Being attracted to a woman would be acceptable<BR>
and safe, which wasn't his particular fetish.<BR>
<BR>
Once he became a woman, the set of people who fulfilled his - er, "her" -  fetish <BR>
changed.  His problem was one of poor self-knowledge.<BR>
<BR>
There are a lot of people whose sexual orientation isn't towards "men" or "women".<BR>
"Blondes".  "Athletes".  "People Your Mother Doesn't Approve Of".  <BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
*Yeah, I know, there are plenty of alternative couples/triples/multiples having long-<BR>
term relationships, kids, families, etc.  The character in the story would simply<BR>
have perceptions that aren't in synch with reality.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2629<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 20 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2630<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Vilani Women<BR>
Re: Whoops...<BR>
Re: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
Re: PD and Arty (was re:ground combat)<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re: TL of standard ships<BR>
Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
Re: relative velocity advantage (near-c speeds)<BR>
Re: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
Re: relative velocity advantage (near-c speeds)<BR>
Re: Society and sex-change (WAS: Inbreeding)<BR>
Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
Fifth Frontire War in Aide de Camp 2<BR>
maps for Zhodani sectors<BR>
Re: call for tender: vehicle & equipment designs<BR>
Hitting Ships<BR>
re:  Vilani Related to Oynprith?<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
Re: relative velocity advantage (near-c speeds)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 08:16:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
Please include some indication that you've posted a message to more<BR>
than one list. I had to go back and retrieve a copy of the reply I sent<BR>
on Trav Culture... Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, I suppose instead of griping about the distinct lack of<BR>
"threadage" on<BR>
> this topic, I might as well post some comments. Not surprisingly, we've<BR>
> touched on this a bit before. I know that Kiri and I seemed to have the<BR>
> greatest interest in the subject. Despite the fact that we rarely see<BR>
eye to<BR>
> eye on just about any topic, we did both agree on one thing: the hostile<BR>
> nature of the environment on Vland would likely lead to a greater<BR>
degree of<BR>
> cooperation than that seen here on earth. If I recall correctly, we both<BR>
> translated this into a more equalized set of relations between the sexes.<BR>
<BR>
Odd, given that a group can far more easily "afford" to lose men than<BR>
it can to lose women of childbearing age, or younger girls. Women just<BR>
aren't as "expendable" as men until you get fairly high tech.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, if you need to keep your numbers *down*, exposing<BR>
women to danger will do it better than exposing men to danger will.<BR>
Even so, most cultures seem to hndle the problem by imposing rules on<BR>
relationships and "breeding rights". :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 08:20:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Whoops...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> That last post was intended for the Traveller-Culture list. I only point<BR>
> that out because some comments will certainly not make sense to people who<BR>
> are not on the list. I'm actually quite confused as to how it ended up on<BR>
> this list, as I was responding to Glenn's post on the Trav-Culture list.<BR>
<BR>
If you still have a copy of his post, check the headers. Bet you<BR>
there's a CC line in there, or that both lists are on the "To" line. <BR>
<BR>
With some mailers, replying to such a message using the "default" reply<BR>
command sends a copy to *all* the addressees in the original message,<BR>
as well as the person you intended to reply to (This is sometimes<BR>
labeled "Reply All"). <BR>
<BR>
You might want to check your mailer settings... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 08:06:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Well, The first edition of D&D (which my first DM had) has references<BR>
>>to "monsters" from Warriors of Mars. And I seem to recall that The<BR>
>>Strategic Review had references to WoM before ones for D&D.<BR>
><BR>
> That would be the "white box" D&D set, which I have sitting in front of me.<BR>
> The monsters of Barsoom are mentioned on the reference charts (on the<BR>
> wandering monster tables). The inclusion of the extra non-stapled booklet of<BR>
> reference charts marks it as a later release. The booklet of reference<BR>
> charts was not included in the earliest woodgrain boxed set and the stats<BR>
> and descriptions for the monsters were never included.<BR>
<BR>
The reference charts weren't included in the woodgrain box (which my DM<BR>
had), but those charts were *copies* of tables IN THE BOOKS. *Nothing*<BR>
appeared in them that was not in the 3 booklets.<BR>
<BR>
I'm all too familar with this, as I had to *type* copies of the<BR>
important tables and rules from those books (I had a typewriter, I<BR>
couldn't afford to xerox that much stuff :-)<BR>
<BR>
>>In any case Chainmail (which I own) preceded *both*.<BR>
><BR>
> Guidon's Chainmail did. The Tactical Studies Rules Chainmail didn't. Out of<BR>
> genuine curiosity (and an attempt to further my own knowledge of what<BR>
> versions are out there), what logo does your copy of Chainmail have on the<BR>
> cover, what's the date on the introduction, and what's the date on the<BR>
> copyright?<BR>
<BR>
*MY* copy was bought several years later. I'm going by the ads in The<BR>
Strategic Review. <BR>
<BR>
>>The Burroughs estate *and* Tolkien's US publishers landed on TSR with<BR>
>>both feet. Warriors of Mars was pulled from the market, and D&D was<BR>
>>quickly edited to remove the references to items from Tolkien (Hobbits,<BR>
>>Ents) and Burroughs (White Apes, <and something else I can't recall>).<BR>
><BR>
> "Warriors of Mars" died a quiet death after one printing (making any info on<BR>
> it scarce) while the D&D references to the monsters continued until at least<BR>
> 1977 (the date I estimate that my little tan books came off the presses<BR>
> based on the release dates of the products advertised on the last page of<BR>
> Volume 1: "Men & Magic"). Tolkien's people, of course, demanded that TSR<BR>
> change the ent and the hobbit, and possibly the text for the orc and wight<BR>
> as they're both clumsily pasted over with the same glaringly different<BR>
> typeface used for the treant. All manner of Barsoomian critters are<BR>
> referenced in the non-stapled booklet, but they never appeared in Volume 2:<BR>
> "Monsters and Treasures".<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but the *did*. As I said, *everything* in the "non-stapled<BR>
booklet" was copied *directly* from the other 3 books. So if your copy<BR>
has the Barsoomian stuff, then it's actually "older" than your<BR>
booklets. <BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure if that part of my D&D stuff is in storage or not. I know<BR>
some critical parts of my CT stuff is. :-(<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:48:11 +0100<BR>
From: "N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: GURPS Charecter Design (was Re: Starship "Quirks")<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> I am not a heretic.<BR>
<BR>
<eyebrow>Really?<BR>
<BR>
> I believe in following the games written rules. However when<BR>
> these rules are contradictory (as the GURPS rules are) than<BR>
> I believe you ought to value the more basic design philosophy<BR>
> (which in GURPS is "All 100 point characters are equivalent"<BR>
> and "Advantages must be paid for.") over statements in the<BR>
> text of one advantage (Allies in GURPS). YMMV<BR>
<BR>
MMV<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:04:46 +0100<BR>
From: "N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: PD and Arty (was re:ground combat)<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
> And remember, where there are PD lasers, there are no thin-skinned aircraft.<BR>
> At all.<BR>
<BR>
There are where you're building them under FFS1. Grrr....<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
+++<BR>
Man, I'm falling in *love* with FFS2...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:13:10 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
> >   I would call this kind of scenario 'time escapies' as most elite crews<BR>
> >   had been started as greenhorns some 1000 years ago to escape their<BR>
> >   future. <BR>
> <BR>
> I get the impression you are thinking of ion drives as *interstellar*<BR>
> drives, not interplanetary ones.<BR>
<BR>
Hm...1,000 years for an ion drive to nearby stars is wildly optimistic; you'd need specific impulse of at least a few hundred thousand seconds to travel between stars in only a thousand years.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:14:51 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TL of standard ships<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson writes:<BR>
> Peter Newman writes:<BR>
> >Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote<BR>
> >>The advantages of TL 15 over TL 13 for<BR>
> >>a type A Freetrader are minimal, <BR>
> >This is not true in MT.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> <BR>
>      I see.  I suppose that this is a problem when the standard<BR>
>      designs were designed in CT and then translated.  In Book 2<BR>
>      TL is not a consideration, and in HG2 it is a minor one for<BR>
>      cargo tonnage.  Cost is probably at least as important, but<BR>
>      that is another kettle of fish.<BR>
<BR>
In GT, once you apply exchange rates, the GTL-10 (TTL-12) design is better ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:21:15 +0100<BR>
From: "N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: PC Fratricide (Was Re: GURPS Character Design)<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
> >Do other group routinely have PC's killing each other off?<BR>
<BR>
Depends. I play a fair bit of live-roleplay stuff, with university<BR>
groups and the Lorien Trust, and since most LRP plot tends to be<BR>
character-created rather than ref-created you do tend to wind up with<BR>
quite a lot of backstabbing, intrigue and death caused by characters.<BR>
Besides, there's usually a lot more characters around than monsters,<BR>
since somebody has to be there to actually play each monster.<BR>
<BR>
In tabletop games I prefer to avoid it, and usually go to some lengths<BR>
to set up mechanisms to promote harmony between characters. I play<BR>
tabletop RPGs as much to relax as for anything else, and I like to know<BR>
sure I can trust my friends' characters. Paranoia's fun for a little<BR>
while, but it wears you down. <BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:34:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: relative velocity advantage (near-c speeds)<BR>
<BR>
>> For example if your enemy's weapons have a ten light second<BR>
>> maximum range and you are moving at 0.5 C (relative to them)<BR>
>> than you will be in range for no more than 40 seconds [1]. If<BR>
>> you are stationary (relative to them) than you will be in range<BR>
>> forever.<BR>
<BR>
>If you are moving .5 c, you'll get to shoot at them for 40 seconds<BR>
>about once a *month*. Work out how long it'll take to decelerate to a<BR>
>stop, and then allow an equal time to accelerate back for another <BR>
>pass.<BR>
>Then figure out how *far* you'll travel during the deceleration. <BR>
<BR>
Why do you have to decelerate to a stop ?  Aircraft and ships don't, <BR>
they only circle around.<BR>
<BR>
Depending on how one's fleet is composed it could be a major <BR>
advantage to only be exposed for 40 seconds.  Say a group of small <BR>
PAW ships versus one large PAW/Meson ship.  The small ships run the <BR>
gauntlet and then fire AND run.  A major advantage that large ships <BR>
have over small ships is that their spinal mounts have a much larger <BR>
range.  High relative velocites negates that advantage.<BR>
<BR>
Also keep in mind that attacking from the sunward direction is the <BR>
high ground of space (due to sensor sensitivity).  A velocity <BR>
advantage will enable a fleet to more easily get into position.<BR>
<BR>
You made a lot of other points.  I'll respond to them shortly.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:45:18 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
<BR>
Kristian Miller writes:<BR>
>>of the free trader, which has only one entrance.  Kristian<BR>
>>was seriously reviewing the rules on breaching bulkheads<BR>
>>for a while.<BR>
>I would have done it too except for Erick's broadsword wielding maniac.<BR>
<BR>
	Does anyone else penalize broadsword use in a standard 148 cm wide<BR>
	by 223 cm high starship corridor?  Even a cutlass might be a little<BR>
	constrained in such quarters, but I'm generous since it is supposed<BR>
	to be the "standard shipboard weapon."  Halberds, pikes, etc. just<BR>
	don't strike me as efficient weapons in tight passageways.  I also<BR>
	divide firearms into several categories depending on how much<BR>
	initiative will be penalized coming around corners in a ship: rifles,<BR>
	carbines, smg's, and pistols.  How do people deal with these<BR>
	situations?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:50:06 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: relative velocity advantage (near-c speeds)<BR>
<BR>
Robert Snyder writes:<BR>
> >If you are moving .5 c, you'll get to shoot at them for 40 seconds<BR>
> >about once a *month*. Work out how long it'll take to decelerate to a<BR>
> >stop, and then allow an equal time to accelerate back for another <BR>
> >pass.<BR>
> >Then figure out how *far* you'll travel during the deceleration. <BR>
> <BR>
> Why do you have to decelerate to a stop ?  Aircraft and ships don't, <BR>
> they only circle around.<BR>
<BR>
Because in space, circling takes greater force than decelerating.  Circling is<BR>
a feature of environments with friction and resistance, it has no relevance in space.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:55:07 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Society and sex-change (WAS: Inbreeding)<BR>
<BR>
"Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au> responds to Leonard:<BR>
<BR>
>Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
>(of the interesting Busby story) :-<BR>
>> The changes actually take several days, but they are pretty obvious in<BR>
> >*hours*. At least the shrinkage or growth of the penis/clitoris is.<BR>
<BR>
>A more realistic timeframe is around 4-6 weeks. Noticeable change will<BR>
>be evident by the end of 2-3 days.<BR>
<BR>
>The time course of acute inflammation and tissue remodelling are pretty<BR>
>constant in the absence of accelerants (e.g. tumour growth factors - but<BR>
>these will just give you tumours).<BR>
<BR>
Robert, isn't also true that certain tissues lose their receptivity to<BR>
female hormones after long enough exposure to male hormones (i.e.,<BR>
male-to-female transsexuals generally never get more than an 'A' cup once<BR>
they start hormone therapy)?<BR>
<BR>
The people in the Busby story will therefore quite possibly be even weirder<BR>
hormonally than anatomically. Currently, if a male remains on hormone<BR>
therapy long enough, he will become permanently sterile, even if he<BR>
eventually stops the therapy. This isn't the case of the people in the<BR>
story, so they must have some strange receptor sites, to say the least.<BR>
<BR>
This probably wouldn't be an issue for the people in the story, but when<BR>
transsexuals begin therapy they often go through a 'second puberty.' Men<BR>
become less decisive and suffer from occasional crying jags, women become<BR>
aggressive and unable to control their anger. After a while, they adjust<BR>
(IIRC, your hormone levels don't drop all that much after puberty, you just<BR>
become acclimated to them), but if they stop therapy, they go through<BR>
*another* puberty (this time back to their birth sex.)<BR>
<BR>
The thought of people simultaneously undergoing both male and female puberty<BR>
has some interesting possibilities, to say the least.<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:53:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The disadvantage to really high relative velocities is that if you are<BR>
> moving really, really fast, it takes a longer time to change your<BR>
> course by a given angle.<BR>
<BR>
and<BR>
<BR>
> If you are moving .5 c, you'll get to shoot at them for 40 seconds<BR>
> about once a *month*. Work out how long it'll take to decelerate to a<BR>
> stop, and then allow an equal time to accelerate back for another pass.<BR>
> Then figure out how *far* you'll travel during the deceleration.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard's comments accurately reflect my experiences with Traveller games<BR>
lilke Mayday, Brilliant Lances, and Battle Rider. I will never claim that<BR>
these games accurately reflect anything close to reality, but in these<BR>
games, high speeds are something of a liability.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:22:00 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Fifth Frontire War in Aide de Camp 2<BR>
<BR>
If you are interested in how the Aide de Camp 2 conversion of Fifth Frontier<BR>
War is coming, you can look at screen shots of the maps at<BR>
http://www.ksarul.com/traveller/adc2/ffw/. The images are compressed, so<BR>
they are not as clean as you get in the actual game, but I doubt that anyone<BR>
wants to look at a collection of 2.4 MB images.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:43:32 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: maps for Zhodani sectors<BR>
<BR>
are there any maps detailing more than a dot-map for zhodani space?  I have<BR>
found on the internet:<BR>
<BR>
A map of two subsectors of Usingou at the Zhodani Files<BR>
A map of Foreven sector at zho.berka.com<BR>
Maps of Tienspevnekr and Zhdant in the nsc section of the Missouri Archives.<BR>
<BR>
Anything I've missed?  Any comments on canonicity or lack thereof of any of these sources (I suspect low in all cases)?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:15:04 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: call for tender: vehicle & equipment designs<BR>
<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
<BR>
>  What sorts of designs? - TL is the obvious question...<BR>
<BR>
Whatever.  We'll figure out ways to use them.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:14:21 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Hi all.<BR>
<BR>
We've been over this before, but in light of the recent Fighter debates, I<BR>
thought I'd trot this formula out: <BR>
<BR>
s=(1206.874*g^2*R^4)/(V^.666666);<BR>
<BR>
The above formula gives you approximately the number of shots needed to<BR>
guarantee one hit against a ship, where g is acceleration in gs, R<BR>
is range in light-seconds, and V is target volume in m^3 (= 14 times<BR>
tons). See below for derivation.  The formula assumes that the rounds<BR>
fired at the target are long enough to transverse the sphere the target<BR>
could occupy following a detection/return fire lag. It assumes zero<BR>
processing time between detection and fire.  Note that the prob of any one<BR>
shot hitting is about 1/s (but see below).<BR>
<BR>
Some interesting results:                    <BR>
<BR>
V              R            g           s         Notes<BR>
<BR>
140            .5 ls        6         100.7       10 ton Fighter<BR>
<BR>
1400           .5 ls        2           2.4       100 ton Scout<BR>
<BR>
14 000 000     .5 ls        4           0.02      1 Mton Battlecarrier<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
And some more:<BR>
<BR>
Constants: V = 140 m3, R = .5 ls<BR>
gs       1       2         3         4         5         6<BR>
s     2.79   11.19     25.17     44.76     69.94    100.71<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
Constants: gs = 4, R = .5 ls<BR>
V      140    1400     14000    140000   1400000  14000000<BR>
s    44.76    9.64      2.08      0.45      0.10      0.02<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Constants:  gs = 4, V = 140 m3<BR>
R      .17     .33       .50       .67       .83      1.00<BR>
s      .55    8.84     44.76    141.47    345.39    716.20<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Now, because people will likely ignore this unless I say something<BR>
inflamatory, let me speak thusly:  Fighters are IMPOSSIBLE to hit!  You<BR>
could NEVER hit them!  Battleships are SITTING DUCKS!  No wonder there are<BR>
fighters in the OTU, they RULE! :-) <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Some other thoughts:<BR>
The probability of any one shot hitting is, on average, 1/s, but figuring<BR>
this out is complicated by the fact that the ship potentially occupies a<BR>
spherical area and shots fired through the middle of the sphere will<BR>
trasverse a greater volume than shots fired through edge regions.  Anyone<BR>
have a handle on how to determine the chances of scoring a hit with X<BR>
shots? <BR>
<BR>
Derivation of formula:<BR>
<BR>
Time lag to rounds reaching target:<BR>
T = 2 * R (Range in light-seconds, assuming no processing time)<BR>
<BR>
Maximum movement of target during time lag:<BR>
M = .5 * g * 9.8 * T^2  (g in gs)<BR>
<BR>
Area of circle of sky target potentially occupies.<BR>
A = pi * M^2<BR>
<BR>
Cross-sectional area of target:<BR>
X=V^.6666     (V is volume in m^3)<BR>
<BR>
Number of shots (approx) needed to get single definate hit:<BR>
N = A / X<BR>
N = pi * (.5 * g * 9.8 * (R*2)^2)^2 / (V^.6666)<BR>
N = (1206.874 * g^2 * R^4) / (V^.6666)<BR>
<BR>
Explanation:<BR>
Assuming the target sends out a detectable light-speed signal at time X,<BR>
the delay till a light-speed round can reach it is 2*range(in ls),<BR>
assuming zero processing time between recieving the signal and shooting<BR>
the round.  In that time, the ship can travel at most .5at^2 meters.  Thus<BR>
it can occupy a sphere with a radius equal to this.  If your round is long<BR>
enough to transverse the sphere, the ship effectively occopies a circle in<BR>
a plane perpendicular to the direction of fire.  Assuming a ship has a<BR>
cross-section of volume^.666, the optimal fire solution to ensure 1 hit<BR>
with a set of simultaneously fired rounds is to spread your shots evenly<BR>
around in a grid whose components have an area equal to the<BR>
cross-sectional area of the ship.<BR>
<BR>
Have a good one,<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:21:40 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Vilani Related to Oynprith?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
<BR>
>It is a well-known fact that the Vilani were under the <BR>
>tutelage of the Ancients, who, canonically, are Droyne <BR>
>(though this last fact is not known in-game).  It is <BR>
>reasonable to assume that the Vilani would have used the <BR>
>Ancients' language for communication both with the<BR>
>Ancients and among themselves in their Ancient-supported<BR>
>civilization.  <BR>
<BR>
Why is that assumption reasonable?  The Droyne are<BR>
extremely intelligent and psionic.  Why wouldn't<BR>
communication occur via telepathy; and is telepathic<BR>
communication necessarily linguistic?  <BR>
<BR>
Did the Ancients actually use Oynprith, or did Grandfather<BR>
invent Oynprith when he was recontacting the surviving<BR>
Droyne?  I think that the Ancients used a variety of<BR>
languages and telepathic communication as necessary.  After<BR>
the Final War, the scattered surviving Droyne (and<BR>
Chirpers) spoke whatever Ancient languages they had been<BR>
using, and, over time, those languages diverged, developed,<BR>
etc.  When Grandfather began recontacting the Droyne, he<BR>
decided to provide a common language for use in<BR>
communicating with him.  That language is Oynprith.  <BR>
<BR>
The proto-Vilani were speaking whatever language they had<BR>
been using on Earth when the Ancients took them.  They<BR>
developed their own languages over time on Vland, just as<BR>
Humans on Earth developed a multitude of languages.  <BR>
<BR>
It is likely that some Vilani vocabulary will overlap with<BR>
Ancient vocabulary.  Because Ancient vocabulary is not<BR>
related to Oynprith, there will be no overlap between<BR>
Vilani and Oynprith (further obscuring the connection<BR>
between the Ancients and the Droyne).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Given that, would one expect to<BR>
find parallel constructions in Vilani and Oynprith, and<BR>
vocabulary showing common origin?  Or is the roughly<BR>
quarter-million years since the Final War enough to<BR>
obliterateany sign of this?<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:33:57 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin writes:<BR>
> Hi all.<BR>
> <BR>
> We've been over this before, but in light of the recent Fighter debates, I<BR>
> thought I'd trot this formula out: <BR>
> <BR>
> s=(1206.874*g^2*R^4)/(V^.666666);<BR>
<BR>
Actually, due to the fact that you're probably using some sort of quasi-random-walk algorithm for evasion, with a leg length chosen to be useful at multiple ranges, its more like (all of that)^3/4.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:50:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> The disadvantage to really high relative velocities is that if you are<BR>
>> moving really, really fast, it takes a longer time to change your<BR>
>> course by a given angle.<BR>
><BR>
> and<BR>
><BR>
>> If you are moving .5 c, you'll get to shoot at them for 40 seconds<BR>
>> about once a *month*. Work out how long it'll take to decelerate to a<BR>
>> stop, and then allow an equal time to accelerate back for another pass.<BR>
>> Then figure out how *far* you'll travel during the deceleration.<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard's comments accurately reflect my experiences with Traveller games<BR>
> lilke Mayday, Brilliant Lances, and Battle Rider. I will never claim that<BR>
> these games accurately reflect anything close to reality, but in these<BR>
> games, high speeds are something of a liability.<BR>
<BR>
Mayday comes pretty close to reality.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, high relative velocities don't result in *combat*, they<BR>
result in a short exchange of shots.<BR>
<BR>
P!r@tes *have* to have a low relative velocity or they can't board.<BR>
Ditto for customs cutters.<BR>
<BR>
Invasion forces have to have a low velocity because they can't land<BR>
troops or assume orbit until their velocity is low enough. <BR>
<BR>
Naval vessels have to have low relative velocities because if their<BR>
first shots fail to put the enemy out of action, they need to be able<BR>
to continue the attack until either he is out of action or they are.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:55:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>> >   I would call this kind of scenario 'time escapies' as most elite crews<BR>
>> >   had been started as greenhorns some 1000 years ago to escape their<BR>
>> >   future. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> I get the impression you are thinking of ion drives as *interstellar*<BR>
>> drives, not interplanetary ones.<BR>
><BR>
> Hm...1,000 years for an ion drive to nearby stars is wildly optimistic; <BR>
> you'd need specific impulse of at least a few hundred thousand seconds to <BR>
> travel between stars in only a thousand years.<BR>
<BR>
I think current (or easily projected from current) ion drives *do* have<BR>
that sort of Isp. It's just that the *thrust* is so low.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:56:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: relative velocity advantage (near-c speeds)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>> For example if your enemy's weapons have a ten light second<BR>
>>> maximum range and you are moving at 0.5 C (relative to them)<BR>
>>> than you will be in range for no more than 40 seconds [1]. If<BR>
>>> you are stationary (relative to them) than you will be in range<BR>
>>> forever.<BR>
><BR>
>>If you are moving .5 c, you'll get to shoot at them for 40 seconds<BR>
>>about once a *month*. Work out how long it'll take to decelerate to a<BR>
>>stop, and then allow an equal time to accelerate back for another <BR>
>>pass.<BR>
>>Then figure out how *far* you'll travel during the deceleration. <BR>
><BR>
> Why do you have to decelerate to a stop ?  Aircraft and ships don't, <BR>
> they only circle around.<BR>
<BR>
Because aircraft and ships have air or water to work their control<BR>
surfaces against. In space, only gravity and your drive have any affect<BR>
on your course. No aerodynamic/hydrodynamic forces. There's also no<BR>
friction (at least not until ridiculously high speeds)<BR>
<BR>
You go in a straight line until you do something about it. And the<BR>
*cheapest* (in terms of fuel. time and energy) method of making another<BR>
pass is to *pivot* the ship about its center of mass so that the drive<BR>
is pointing the way you are heading, and run it at max thrust until it<BR>
first kills your forward vector, and then gives you an equal but<BR>
opposite vector, which will take you back past the target.<BR>
<BR>
Try playing Mayday. Or find a Spacewar arcade game (or the version for<BR>
the PC) and play it for a while.<BR>
<BR>
> Depending on how one's fleet is composed it could be a major <BR>
> advantage to only be exposed for 40 seconds.  Say a group of small <BR>
> PAW ships versus one large PAW/Meson ship.  The small ships run the <BR>
> gauntlet and then fire AND run.  A major advantage that large ships <BR>
> have over small ships is that their spinal mounts have a much larger <BR>
> range.  High relative velocites negates that advantage.<BR>
<BR>
Not as much as it negates the small ship's ability to hit. Also, small<BR>
ships are *much* more vulnerable to damage from dust and gas at near c<BR>
velocities. <BR>
<BR>
> Also keep in mind that attacking from the sunward direction is the <BR>
> high ground of space (due to sensor sensitivity).  A velocity <BR>
> advantage will enable a fleet to more easily get into position.<BR>
<BR>
But there's a limit to how close you can lurk to the sun. And thus a<BR>
limit to the sort of velocity towards the enemy you can build up in the<BR>
distance between you.<BR>
<BR>
Also. unless he is moving directly towards or away from the sun, there<BR>
will be a sideway component to your relative vector. Which means you<BR>
*won't* be between him and the star for much of your acceleration run. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2630<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2631</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 20 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2631<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
RE: Relative Velocity<BR>
re:  Vilani Related to Oynprith?<BR>
Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
REVIEW: Alien Races 3<BR>
Re: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
re:  Fifth Frontire War in Aide de Camp 2<BR>
[Imperial Navy] MODERNISING THE NAVY: BARONESS SYMONS ANNOUNCES WAY AHEAD ON NEW TENDER/RIDER COMBINATIONS AND DESTROYERS<BR>
Re: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:09:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Kristian Miller writes:<BR>
>>>of the free trader, which has only one entrance.  Kristian<BR>
>>>was seriously reviewing the rules on breaching bulkheads<BR>
>>>for a while.<BR>
>>I would have done it too except for Erick's broadsword wielding maniac.<BR>
><BR>
>         Does anyone else penalize broadsword use in a standard 148 cm wide<BR>
>         by 223 cm high starship corridor?  Even a cutlass might be a little<BR>
>         constrained in such quarters, but I'm generous since it is supposed<BR>
>         to be the "standard shipboard weapon." <BR>
<BR>
I just checked and the hallway in my apartment is only 35" wide (call<BR>
it 89 cm). You *could* fight in there with a sword, *especially* with a<BR>
ceiling that high. Broadswords actually tend to be *shorter* than<BR>
cutlasses, if I recall correctly. <BR>
<BR>
> Halberds, pikes, etc. just<BR>
>         don't strike me as efficient weapons in tight passageways.<BR>
<BR>
Pikes are a *thrusting* weapon. And halberds are intended for *short*<BR>
chopping swings as well as thrusting with the spike. You just don't<BR>
*make* wide swings with it. The only problem would be with getting<BR>
around corners.<BR>
<BR>
For what it's worth, I once *delivered* a halberd from the smith who made<BR>
it to the pub that had ordered it. I took the *bus*. Normal city bus.<BR>
No problem except staying aware of where both ends were in respect to<BR>
the people around me.<BR>
<BR>
A true "pole ax" would be a much different matter. As would the really<BR>
long pikes used in some places. But a mere 8 foot spear or axe is not a<BR>
problem.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:20:45 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Thruster Speed Limits (was travel times)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > Hm...1,000 years for an ion drive to nearby stars is wildly optimistic; <BR>
> > you'd need specific impulse of at least a few hundred thousand seconds to<BR>
> >  travel between stars in only a thousand years.<BR>
> <BR>
> I think current (or easily projected from current) ion drives *do* have<BR>
> that sort of Isp. It's just that the *thrust* is so low.<BR>
<BR>
Hm...no, I think the ones I've seen suggested are between 1000 and 100,000, <BR>
and you really want 500,000+.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:39:52 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Relative Velocity<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: relative velocity advantage (near-c speeds)<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>Why do you have to decelerate to a stop ?  Aircraft and ships don't,<BR>
>they only circle around.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	I don't have the equations available, but this would be relatively easy to<BR>
figure out - take the equation for determining the "gravity" (centrifigual<BR>
force) of a rotating system and work it backwards:  use the velocity (0.5c)<BR>
and the centripedal acceleration (the Gs of the ship) and figure out the<BR>
necessary radius.  Plug that number through the old pi(diameter) equation<BR>
for the circumference of the circle the ship would be flying in, and divide<BR>
that by the velocity to get the time it would take.<BR>
	Anyone have that first equation handy?  It might be interesting to see how<BR>
much it differs from straight-line acceleration and just how big the circle<BR>
would be :)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:49:22 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
Subject: re:  Vilani Related to Oynprith?<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin commented:<BR>
<BR>
> Why is that assumption reasonable?  The Droyne are<BR>
> extremely intelligent and psionic.  Why wouldn't<BR>
> communication occur via telepathy; and is telepathic<BR>
> communication necessarily linguistic?  <BR>
<BR>
The assumption that all Droyne are extremely intelligent and psionic<BR>
adepts is probably not warranted, though.  I think that in CT, the average<BR>
Droyne when casted has an Int of 3, and pitiful psionic ability beyond<BR>
the mind-clouding trick....  Older droyne, especially leaders, can get<BR>
pretty brilliant, but I don't think it's typical.  Would have to look<BR>
to be sure.<BR>
<BR>
  -- Steve Bonneville<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:24:21 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
On 06/19/00 at 11:00 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>> NOTE:  Take anything I say here with a large grain of salt; all of this was <BR>
>> occuring before I was born (Nov. 74)!<BR>
<BR>
>Gee, make me feel old why don't you?<BR>
<BR>
Hee, hee!<BR>
<BR>
>I was *playing* D&D back in 74. Our DM got the first set of the rules<BR>
>ever shipped to the Pacific Northwest. And we played our first game not<BR>
>that much later.<BR>
<BR>
I was out of college 3 years already in 74 and found D&D while<BR>
looking at AH wargames in the back of a card, gift and game store.<BR>
<BR>
Does that make you feel younger?  <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    old coot<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:34:14 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
> > s=(1206.874*g^2*R^4)/(V^.666666);<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, due to the fact that you're probably using some sort of<BR>
> quasi-random-walk algorithm for evasion, with a leg length chosen to be<BR>
> useful at multiple ranges, its more like (all of that)^3/4. <BR>
<BR>
Hmm, well I was assuming all shots fired at once (a shotgun-style<BR>
scenario).  Once you start getting into shots that are seperated in time,<BR>
it gets pretty complex.  How did you come up with the 3/4 figure? <BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:47:54 -0000<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
Eris you are one of the very few on the list thats older than I am. I defer<BR>
to your ancientness.......<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 9:24 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On 06/19/00 at 11:00 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
><BR>
> >> NOTE:  Take anything I say here with a large grain of salt; all of this<BR>
was<BR>
> >> occuring before I was born (Nov. 74)!<BR>
><BR>
> >Gee, make me feel old why don't you?<BR>
><BR>
> Hee, hee!<BR>
><BR>
> >I was *playing* D&D back in 74. Our DM got the first set of the rules<BR>
> >ever shipped to the Pacific Northwest. And we played our first game not<BR>
> >that much later.<BR>
><BR>
> I was out of college 3 years already in 74 and found D&D while<BR>
> looking at AH wargames in the back of a card, gift and game store.<BR>
><BR>
> Does that make you feel younger?  <g><BR>
><BR>
> Eris,<BR>
>     old coot<BR>
> --<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:55:46 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin writes:<BR>
> > > s=(1206.874*g^2*R^4)/(V^.666666);<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Actually, due to the fact that you're probably using some sort of<BR>
> > quasi-random-walk algorithm for evasion, with a leg length chosen to be<BR>
> > useful at multiple ranges, its more like (all of that)^3/4. <BR>
> <BR>
> Hmm, well I was assuming all shots fired at once (a shotgun-style<BR>
> scenario).  Once you start getting into shots that are seperated in time,<BR>
> it gets pretty complex.  How did you come up with the 3/4 figure? <BR>
<BR>
If you assume that a ship accelerates in one distance for long enough to cover its own length, and then changes direction, we get the length of one 'leg' for a random-walk pattern.  Note that this leg length is most useful if one<BR>
assumes that there may be unknown attackers firing at you, you can use a <BR>
longer leg length if you know there's no-one within a specific radius.<BR>
If we treat each leg as a delta-V, the typical distance covered by a random-walk algorithm is (leg length) * sqrt(number of steps), which means <BR>
that velocity increases as the 1/2 power of time and distance as the 3/2.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:55:46 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin writes:<BR>
> > > s=(1206.874*g^2*R^4)/(V^.666666);<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Actually, due to the fact that you're probably using some sort of<BR>
> > quasi-random-walk algorithm for evasion, with a leg length chosen to be<BR>
> > useful at multiple ranges, its more like (all of that)^3/4. <BR>
> <BR>
> Hmm, well I was assuming all shots fired at once (a shotgun-style<BR>
> scenario).  Once you start getting into shots that are seperated in time,<BR>
> it gets pretty complex.  How did you come up with the 3/4 figure? <BR>
<BR>
If you assume that a ship accelerates in one distance for long enough to cover its own length, and then changes direction, we get the length of one 'leg' for a random-walk pattern.  Note that this leg length is most useful if one<BR>
assumes that there may be unknown attackers firing at you, you can use a <BR>
longer leg length if you know there's no-one within a specific radius.<BR>
If we treat each leg as a delta-V, the typical distance covered by a random-walk algorithm is (leg length) * sqrt(number of steps), which means <BR>
that velocity increases as the 1/2 power of time and distance as the 3/2.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:59:26<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: REVIEW: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
With GF safely in the hands of the Austin Mob, I could finally wander down<BR>
to my FLGS and pick up AR3.  Here are my thoughts and opinions on the<BR>
latest Alien book.<BR>
<BR>
First off, I've always loved the Hivers and Droyne.  I've never really been<BR>
comfortable with the Vargr and Aslan, they were just a little too much like<BR>
big dogs and kitties.  I like my aliens weird.  With this book, we have two<BR>
of the weirdest aliens in Traveller back, better than ever.<BR>
<BR>
The cover is the traditional shot of two representative members of the<BR>
races covered panted by Doug Shuler.  The title promises us "Hivers,<BR>
Droyne, and Other Enigmatic Races."  But do they deliver?<BR>
<BR>
The first race covered is the Hivers.  After the fiasco that was "Aliens of<BR>
the Rim, Vol. I" is was braced for anything.  Luckily, the Hivers are<BR>
presented in a way that makes them a very likeable, interesting race.  The<BR>
section on their motivations is very useful from a role-playing standpoint.<BR>
 You learn everything you really need to know about a Hiver's instinctive<BR>
motivations in two pages.<BR>
<BR>
Several pages are dedicated to Hiver social interaction, and the structure<BR>
of the Hive Federation.  Most of this is recycled from the older Traveller<BR>
information, but is presented in a clear, concise manner that makes a<BR>
Referee's job much easier.  One thing that I missed here that was present<BR>
in earlier books was example of Hiver writing.  Such things make such nice<BR>
chrome on a campaign.<BR>
<BR>
On page 24, we are introduced to several client races, starting with the<BR>
Ithklur.  Stop whining.  These are not TNE's cultural jokes, but deadly<BR>
serious killing machines that have warped senses of humor.  Gone are the<BR>
Santa Claus hats and the stupid jokes.  Instead, we see the Ithklur as a<BR>
race who pride *action* above calm reflection.  If they had a racial motto,<BR>
it would probably be "He who hesitates is lost."  This is a nice take on a<BR>
carnivorous race, one I hadn't seen done before.  As I read this section, I<BR>
was struck by a resemblance to 2300AD's Kafers.  There's a war I'd like to<BR>
watch, preferably from far away.<BR>
<BR>
The authors did keep the best elements of the race from TNE; the<BR>
elaborately decorated weapons, the "blackening" ritual before combat.. this<BR>
is now a race I'd love to play and explore, and there are templates for<BR>
both civilized and "feral" Ithklur.<BR>
<BR>
After the Ithklur, we meet the Gurvin, who are akin to Star Trek's Ferengi.<BR>
 They are ace merchants and traders, and their language has become the<BR>
standard tongue of the Federation.  Then come the Za'tachk, who are natural<BR>
administrators.  While there is a "one-trick" feel to some of these races,<BR>
it isn't any worse than what you find in such races as the Newts.<BR>
<BR>
The Hiver section closes with a GM's section, character templates, and the<BR>
obligatory Jesse images and the ship stats to justify them.<BR>
<BR>
Next up, the Droyne.  After the usual explorations of the races physiology<BR>
and psychology (including a nice section on the six castes), we get to the<BR>
*good* stuff: the coyns.  Included with the book is a complete set of coyns<BR>
on gold-colored card-stock, and we've become addicted to casting them<BR>
before doing anything.  This was a bit or marketing genius.  Droyne<BR>
mysticism is explained, along with the more common coyn ceremonies.  The<BR>
section makes it clear that the Droyne are deeply religious, mystical race.<BR>
<BR>
Droyne Society is examined  from the lowest level (Tyafelm, the basic<BR>
grouping of at least six) up to the Kroyloss and Yatroy, extended families<BR>
and embassy like-groups.  Once again, enough attention is paid to make this<BR>
an interesting race to run.<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Grant *dies* for the drawing on page 83, by the way.  Slowly.  I<BR>
shudder to think of where she'll show up in GF...<BR>
<BR>
Droyne government, worlds, and language generation comes in the usual<BR>
places.  Candory/Five Sisters is detailed, with a couple of adventure<BR>
ideas.  The rest of the chapter is taken up with Droyne specific rules for<BR>
GURPS.  Important note!  You'll really need GURPS: Psionics to properly use<BR>
the Droyne in a campaign.<BR>
<BR>
Chapter 3 was a bit of a surprise.  Explaining the Ancients away so quickly<BR>
seemed a bad idea, until I read the chapter.<BR>
<BR>
Here we get all the information we've all known for years, plus alternate<BR>
theories about the Ancients and where they went.  A discussion of Ancient<BR>
sites in general, and sites in the Marches in particular, makes the chapter<BR>
*very* useful.  Included in the equipment section is a GURPS TL15 starship.<BR>
 Oh, my.  Being the devious person that i am, I could run and entire<BR>
campaign around this ship.<BR>
<BR>
Up until this point in the book, I was moderately impressed.  While good,<BR>
this was all stuff I had seen before.  Then I read the Inheritors.  Please<BR>
understand, I love claustrophobic movies like Alien, The Cube... The<BR>
Inheritors really pushed this button for me.<BR>
<BR>
This race inhabits the shell of an unfinished Dyson sphere some where to<BR>
trailing of the Hive Federation.  Vaguely insectoid, these critters live in<BR>
a micro-grav version of hell, sulfurous atmosphere and extremely high<BR>
temperatures.  The live in the maintenance spaces of the sphere's hull.  If<BR>
that doesn't get your creative juices flowing, turn in your dice!<BR>
<BR>
Along with the details of the race, the authors also provide a few teasing<BR>
clues about the sphere world.  Once again, in a few paragraphs there is<BR>
enough information to fuel months of adventure.<BR>
<BR>
The final race is the Lithkind, a carnivorous race with reproductive habits<BR>
that are.. messy to say the least.<BR>
<BR>
To be honest, this race didn't do all that much for me.  Beyond the novelty<BR>
of their reproduction, and the fact that their society is completely<BR>
segregated by sex, except for the mating period, the seemed fairly<BR>
pedestrian.  Of course, they could be suffering in comparison to the<BR>
Inheritors.<BR>
<BR>
Overall:  The usual good artwork, excellent writing.  This book is a must<BR>
for GMs wanting strange aliens in their campaigns.  The Inheritors<BR>
especially would work well in a non-canon game. <BR>
<BR>
Penguin Boy says: Check it out.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,<BR>
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:07:36 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
<BR>
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
<BR>
>	Does anyone else penalize broadsword use in a >standard<BR>
148 cm wide by 223 cm high starship corridor?  <BR>
>Even a cutlass might be a little constrained in such<BR>
>quarters, but I'm generous since it is supposed to be the<BR>
>"standard shipboard weapon."  Halberds, pikes, etc. just<BR>
>don't strike me as efficient weapons in tight<BR>
>passageways.  I also divide firearms into several <BR>
>categories depending on how much initiative will be<BR>
>penalized coming around corners in a ship: rifles,<BR>
>carbines, smg's, and pistols.  How do people deal with<BR>
>these situations?<BR>
<BR>
Snapshot provides some penalties to action points for<BR>
carrying weapons longer than 1m (maybe it was 1.5m) through<BR>
doorways, at least.  There is no penalty for use as a<BR>
weapon.  On Saturday, either Erick or Kristian, carrying a<BR>
halberd or something, took their action point penalty to<BR>
come around a corner and into a corridor, then ran down the<BR>
corridor and ran my man through.  My other guy then stepped<BR>
into the corridor and hit the attacker with his broadsword.<BR>
 (I still enjoy thinking about it.)<BR>
<BR>
In a non-beer and pretzels game, I would impose an<BR>
appropriate -DM to hit with a long blade or polearm.  A<BR>
long firearm should suffer a -DM to hit if it is being used<BR>
in a snapshot and the firer is changing direction (so that<BR>
the weapon has to be pointed down to avoid the wall as the<BR>
firer turns).  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:06:48 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
On 06/19/00 at 05:47 PM,  "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Eris you are one of the very few on the list thats older than I am. I<BR>
>defer to your ancientness.......<BR>
<BR>
You're only as old as you feel! <g><BR>
<BR>
I'll admit that some days I feel ancient, but normally playing Traveller keeps me feeling like a kid.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:13:28 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Fifth Frontire War in Aide de Camp 2<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
<BR>
Beautiful work, Luther.  I look forward to playing via this<BR>
medium.  Now that we have a new computer at home, nothing<BR>
stops me from buying Aide de Camp 2 ... except knowing<BR>
where it is sold.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:05:17 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [Imperial Navy] MODERNISING THE NAVY: BARONESS SYMONS ANNOUNCES WAY AHEAD ON NEW TENDER/RIDER COMBINATIONS AND DESTROYERS<BR>
<BR>
I was looking at the UK MOD websites and came across the following, <BR>
which I decided to Travellerise...<BR>
<BR>
Enjoy,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
Press release from Imperial Navy: MODERNISING THE NAVY: BARONESS <BR>
SYMONS ANNOUNCES WAY AHEAD ON NEW TENDER/RIDER COMBINATIONS AND <BR>
DESTROYERS<BR>
<BR>
Contracts to assess options for the Future Battle Fleet Programme <BR>
have been placed with consortia led by Interstellarms, LIC and Ling <BR>
Standard Products, LIC - the first important move in the programme to <BR>
deliver a larger, more capable Tender/Rider Combination to replace <BR>
the existing BT-14 Invincible class.<BR>
<BR>
    And a Yard 17 & Naasirka consortium has been confirmed as prime <BR>
contractor for the new ED-15 destroyers -  replacements for the ED-14 <BR>
class. An initial contract has been let with Yard 17 to carry forward <BR>
studies on the programme.<BR>
<BR>
   The combined value of the contracts placed today is a potential -100 GCr.<BR>
<BR>
  Baroness Symons said:  "The contracts we have signed today chart the <BR>
way ahead for two programmes which are of huge significance for the <BR>
Imperial Navy's capability to respond flexibly to the challenges we <BR>
will face in the 12th century, and which underpin the plans for a new <BR>
Navy which we laid out in last year's Strategic Defence Review. Both <BR>
programmes will also bring significant benefit to the Domain of <BR>
Deneb's shipbuilding industry, securing  existing jobs and providing <BR>
a significant number of new jobs well into the next few decades.<BR>
<BR>
  "Our plans do not stop here. New  frontier cruisers, frigates, mine <BR>
warfare vessels, assault ships  and supporting vessels are already <BR>
under construction, all of them in the Domain. You would have to look <BR>
back  25 years to find a shipbuilding programme on a similar <BR>
ambitious scale.<BR>
<BR>
   "The new tenders, due to enter service in 1132 and 1135, are likely <BR>
to be the biggest warships ever built in the Domain, and will be <BR>
around twice the size of the existing BT-14 Invincible class. They <BR>
will be designed to carry the new and  powerful FS-15 fighter-bomber <BR>
in enough strength to have a decisive impact on the outcome of the <BR>
battle in close orbit and deep space.<BR>
<BR>
    "The ED-15, due to enter service from 1127, will be the leader <BR>
among escort class warships, far exceeding the capability of similar <BR>
Solomani and Zhodani vessels. It will have the capability to protect <BR>
itself and other ships from the most sophisticated anti-ship <BR>
ordnance. It will be able to stand in close orbit to protect Imperial <BR>
forces engaged in the  surface battle from planetary and aerospace <BR>
attack, dominating the interface."  17:14 200:1117<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------<BR>
And now the Original....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Press release from RN: MODERNISING THE NAVY: BARONESS SYMONS <BR>
ANNOUNCES WAY AHEAD ON NEW CARRIERS AND DESTROYERS<BR>
<BR>
Contracts to assess options for the Future Aircraft Carrier have been <BR>
placed with consortia led by British   Aerospace Land and Sea Systems <BR>
and Thomson-CSF NCS - the first important move in the programme to <BR>
deliver two larger, more capable carriers to replace the existing <BR>
Invincible class.<BR>
<BR>
    And Marconi Electronic Systems has been confirmed as prime <BR>
contractor for the new Type 45 destroyers-  replacements for the Type <BR>
42 class. An initial contract has been let with MES to carry forward <BR>
studies on the programme.<BR>
<BR>
   The combined value of the contracts placed today is a potential -100 million.<BR>
<BR>
  Baroness Symons said:  "The contracts we have signed today chart the <BR>
way ahead for two programmes which are of huge significance for the <BR>
Royal Navy's capability to respond flexibly to the challenges we will <BR>
face in the 21st century, and which underpin the plans for a new Navy <BR>
which we laid out in last year's Strategic Defence Review. Both <BR>
programmes will also bring significant benefit to the UK shipbuilding <BR>
industry, securing  existing jobs and providing a significant number <BR>
of new jobs well into the next Millennium.<BR>
<BR>
  "Our plans do not stop here. New nuclear-powered submarines, <BR>
frigates, mine warfare vessels, assault ships  and supporting vessels <BR>
are already under construction, all of them in the UK. You would have <BR>
to look back  25 years to find a shipbuilding programme on a similar <BR>
ambitious scale.<BR>
<BR>
   "The new carriers, due to enter service in 2012 and 2015, are <BR>
likely to be the biggest warships ever built in  Britain, and will be <BR>
around twice the size of the Invincible class. They will be designed <BR>
to carry new and  powerful fighter-bombers in enough strength to have <BR>
a decisive impact on the outcome of the battle on land.<BR>
<BR>
    "The Type 45, due to enter service from 2007, will be a world <BR>
leader among air defence warships. It will<BR>
   have the capability to protect itself and other ships from the most <BR>
sophisticated sea-skimming and diving,  supersonic and stealthy <BR>
anti-ship missiles. It will be able to stand inshore to protect <BR>
British forces engaged in the land battle from air attack."  17:14 <BR>
23/11/1999<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"Once we actually mapped it for publication it seemed to shrink<BR>
in size and was no longer the immensity that would take months<BR>
to traverse. As things become known, they lose grandeur."<BR>
After Steve Perrin, Pavis & Big Rubble Reprint Epilogue<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:28:51 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 9:09 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Kristian Miller writes:<BR>
> >>>of the free trader, which has only one entrance.  Kristian<BR>
> >>>was seriously reviewing the rules on breaching bulkheads<BR>
> >>>for a while.<BR>
> >>I would have done it too except for Erick's broadsword wielding maniac.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >         Does anyone else penalize broadsword use in a standard 148 cm<BR>
wide<BR>
> >         by 223 cm high starship corridor?  Even a cutlass might be a<BR>
little<BR>
> >         constrained in such quarters, but I'm generous since it is<BR>
supposed<BR>
> >         to be the "standard shipboard weapon."<BR>
><BR>
> I just checked and the hallway in my apartment is only 35" wide (call<BR>
> it 89 cm). You *could* fight in there with a sword, *especially* with a<BR>
> ceiling that high. Broadswords actually tend to be *shorter* than<BR>
> cutlasses, if I recall correctly.<BR>
><BR>
> > Halberds, pikes, etc. just<BR>
> >         don't strike me as efficient weapons in tight passageways.<BR>
><BR>
> Pikes are a *thrusting* weapon. And halberds are intended for *short*<BR>
> chopping swings as well as thrusting with the spike. You just don't<BR>
> *make* wide swings with it. The only problem would be with getting<BR>
> around corners.<BR>
<BR>
Agreed. The main point I would like raise is *why* do so many people read<BR>
through CT and come away with the impression that it's a game about people<BR>
in spaceships, wearing Battledress and wielding medieval polearms! I know<BR>
*several* players who just can't seem to get that image out of their heads.<BR>
<BR>
I've explained to them several times that those particular weapons are<BR>
listed in the combat section as examples of low-tech weapons that might be<BR>
used against players, rather than suggesting that the favoured tactic of the<BR>
Imperial Marines is the Pike Phalanx....<BR>
<BR>
Grrrr!<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:52:27 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Charles Collin" <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
To: "Traveller Mailing List" <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 8:14 PM<BR>
Subject: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Hi all.<BR>
><BR>
> We've been over this before, but in light of the recent Fighter debates, I<BR>
> thought I'd trot this formula out:<BR>
><BR>
> s=(1206.874*g^2*R^4)/(V^.666666);<BR>
><BR>
> The above formula gives you approximately the number of shots needed to<BR>
> guarantee one hit against a ship, where g is acceleration in gs, R<BR>
> is range in light-seconds, and V is target volume in m^3 (= 14 times<BR>
> tons). See below for derivation.  The formula assumes that the rounds<BR>
> fired at the target are long enough to transverse the sphere the target<BR>
> could occupy following a detection/return fire lag. It assumes zero<BR>
> processing time between detection and fire.  Note that the prob of any one<BR>
> shot hitting is about 1/s (but see below).<BR>
><BR>
> Some interesting results:<BR>
><BR>
> V              R            g           s         Notes<BR>
><BR>
> 140            .5 ls        6         100.7       10 ton Fighter<BR>
><BR>
> 1400           .5 ls        2           2.4       100 ton Scout<BR>
><BR>
> 14 000 000     .5 ls        4           0.02      1 Mton Battlecarrier<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
> Now, because people will likely ignore this unless I say something<BR>
> inflamatory, let me speak thusly:  Fighters are IMPOSSIBLE to hit!  You<BR>
> could NEVER hit them!  Battleships are SITTING DUCKS!  No wonder there are<BR>
> fighters in the OTU, they RULE! :-)<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that you are using the volume of the target, rather than its<BR>
cross-section relative to the attacker...<BR>
<BR>
Using your figures it shows that the volume of Scout behind the small bit of<BR>
armour you hit is 40 times greater than the volume of fighter behind the<BR>
same area of armour hit on that, and for a battlecarrier ~5000 times as<BR>
great.<BR>
<BR>
Well, duh! Unless using meson weapons, the volume of the target is<BR>
inconsequential, as your shot doesn't appear at a random spot in the<BR>
probability sphere of the target, but actually traverses it.<BR>
<BR>
At typical space combat ranges, the depth of the sphere can be effectively<BR>
treated as a plane. The fact that the target could be a few tens or hundreds<BR>
of metres closer or further away is irrelevant over a distance tens of<BR>
thousand of kilometres.<BR>
<BR>
In effect, you are shooting at a circle, not a sphere.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:45:16 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
>The reference charts weren't included in the woodgrain box (which my DM<BR>
>had), but those charts were *copies* of tables IN THE BOOKS. *Nothing*<BR>
>appeared in them that was not in the 3 booklets.<BR>
><BR>
>I'm all too familar with this, as I had to *type* copies of the<BR>
>important tables and rules from those books (I had a typewriter, I<BR>
>couldn't afford to xerox that much stuff :-)<BR>
<BR>
I neglected to look through my copy of Volume 3, which has Barsoomian beasts<BR>
clearly listed on the encounter tables, and I missed a few sentences in<BR>
Volume 2 under the heading "Large Insects or Animals". I humbly apologize<BR>
for my incorrect statement and any discomfort or annoyance it has caused.<BR>
<BR>
>*MY* copy [of "Chainmail"] was bought several years later. I'm going by the<BR>
ads in The<BR>
>Strategic Review.<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough, although I'm still curious about the logo on the cover. When I<BR>
said I was asking out of genuine curiosity, I meant it. It might save me<BR>
from getting conned one day. :)<BR>
<BR>
For what it's worth, I decided to go straight to the source and write to the<BR>
ever-patient and pleasant "EGG" and requested information on the order which<BR>
products were printed. He graciously responded, despite the fact that he<BR>
said he was "very busy", that "Cavaliers & Roundheads" was actually the very<BR>
first product that Tactical Studies Rules published. It was released in<BR>
October, 1973. I suspected as much, which is why I said that other products<BR>
may have predated the release of the woodgrain D&D. That was released in<BR>
January of 1974. "Warriors of Mars" was released in 1975.<BR>
<BR>
I will now zip my lips on this subject. <zzzzzip><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2631<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2632</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 21 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2632<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Vilani Women<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships (fwd)<BR>
RE: Fractional c combat<BR>
Vilani Language Font<BR>
Traveller Reprints<BR>
Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Re: Traveller Reprints<BR>
Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Re: Traveller Reprints<BR>
Re: Traveller Reprints<BR>
OT Re: Font info <BR>
Re: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
Snub Pistol Gas Rounds<BR>
Re: Snub Pistol Gas Rounds et al<BR>
My Events at D*C 2000<BR>
BIG Fleet Battles<BR>
Re: BIG Fleet Battles<BR>
Re: Snub Pistol Gas Rounds<BR>
Re: maps for Zhodani sectors<BR>
Mayday and Snapshot in SF<BR>
RE: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
RE: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
RE: XML (was: system data format)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:51:26 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
>Please include some indication that you've posted a message to more<BR>
>than one list. I had to go back and retrieve a copy of the reply I sent<BR>
>on Trav Culture... Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
I did. That indication was in another message which was entitled "Whoops".<BR>
Unfortunately, I didn't realize that the post was going to go here instead<BR>
of there until it ended up here and not there. Had I intended to send it to<BR>
both lists, I would have said so. Due to poor filtering parameters on my<BR>
part, Glenn's post ended up in my "Traveller-Culture" folder.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:18:40 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships (fwd)<BR>
<BR>
<Matt><BR>
The problem is that you are using the volume of the target, rather than<BR>
its cross-section relative to the attacker... <BR>
</Matt><BR>
<BR>
No, actually, I was using the cross-section.  V^.66 is an an approximation<BR>
of cross-section.  For instance, if you have a 1000 m3 cube, it has side<BR>
lengths of 10 m and a cross section of about 100 m3.  1000^.66 = 100.<BR>
<BR>
Note that V^.66 is being somewhat optimistic about the cross-section, as<BR>
it's really the minimum cross-section for a cube.  A sphere has a slightly<BR>
larger relative cross-section, something like V^.7, IIRC.  But anyway,<BR>
that's being applied to all ships in the analysis equally.<BR>
<BR>
Also, I did treat the firing zone as a circle rather than a sphere.<BR>
<BR>
Have a good one,<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 18:33:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm<BR>
<BR>
Let's think this one thru:<BR>
<BR>
Say we are sitting in a Rampart (6g acceleration). I want to acclerate to .5<BR>
c and scare the beans out of some poor Zho cruser and blow him up by<BR>
dropping a few thousand lead sinkers from my last fishing trip in his<BR>
vector.<BR>
<BR>
6 g's = 9.8m/s/s * 6 = 58m/s/s vector change.<BR>
<BR>
.5c is a vector of 150,000,000 m/s<BR>
<BR>
I am going to need to accelerate for 2.2 million seconds, or 43,000 minites<BR>
or 718 hours or 29.9 DAYS to reach that vector.<BR>
<BR>
Who wants to sit their butt in a cockpit for a month, just to get up to<BR>
attack speed?<BR>
<BR>
If traveller had accelerations in the hundreds of G's then this might be a<BR>
point that we would be talking about. But, gladly, it does not.<BR>
<BR>
Let's look at this some more.<BR>
<BR>
If I wanted to make a 1% change to my vector, I would need to apply 1.5<BR>
millon m/s of thrust. 7 hours for a 1% change in heading. hmm.. try dodging<BR>
anything!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
All of this ingores the real concern of how frigging far do you travel in<BR>
those 29 days?<BR>
<BR>
I dunno - I leave that to those with a math degree :)<BR>
<BR>
As allways, I am math impared - so please check, and correct figures ;)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
Erickson<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 12:50 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> The disadvantage to really high relative velocities is that if you are<BR>
>> moving really, really fast, it takes a longer time to change your<BR>
>> course by a given angle.<BR>
><BR>
> and<BR>
><BR>
>> If you are moving .5 c, you'll get to shoot at them for 40 seconds<BR>
>> about once a *month*. Work out how long it'll take to decelerate to a<BR>
>> stop, and then allow an equal time to accelerate back for another pass.<BR>
>> Then figure out how *far* you'll travel during the deceleration.<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard's comments accurately reflect my experiences with Traveller games<BR>
> lilke Mayday, Brilliant Lances, and Battle Rider. I will never claim that<BR>
> these games accurately reflect anything close to reality, but in these<BR>
> games, high speeds are something of a liability.<BR>
<BR>
Mayday comes pretty close to reality.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, high relative velocities don't result in *combat*, they<BR>
result in a short exchange of shots.<BR>
<BR>
P!r@tes *have* to have a low relative velocity or they can't board.<BR>
Ditto for customs cutters.<BR>
<BR>
Invasion forces have to have a low velocity because they can't land<BR>
troops or assume orbit until their velocity is low enough.<BR>
<BR>
Naval vessels have to have low relative velocities because if their<BR>
first shots fail to put the enemy out of action, they need to be able<BR>
to continue the attack until either he is out of action or they are.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:43:48 EDT<BR>
From: CardSharks@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Vilani Language Font<BR>
<BR>
I spoke with Loren about an article on the Vilani Language font, and he says <BR>
I can write one for JTAS. My intention is to provide a serifed and <BR>
non-serifed downloadable font through JTAS, and to provide an article that <BR>
details the specific meanings (numbers, letters, punctuation, etc.) <BR>
<BR>
Meanwhile, there is a sample of the basic upper and lower case letters in a <BR>
hand-written font at<BR>
<BR>
http://members.aol.com/Traveller/T505-00.html<BR>
<BR>
Marc Miller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:44:41 EDT<BR>
From: CardSharks@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller Reprints<BR>
<BR>
There is an announcement about the next book in the Classic Traveller reprint <BR>
series at <BR>
<BR>
http://members.aol.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:05:29 -0500<BR>
From: "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 4:49 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>On 06/19/00 at 11:00 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
><BR>
>>> NOTE:  Take anything I say here with a large grain of salt; all of this<BR>
was<BR>
>>> occuring before I was born (Nov. 74)!<BR>
><BR>
>>Gee, make me feel old why don't you?<BR>
><BR>
>Hee, hee!<BR>
><BR>
>>I was *playing* D&D back in 74. Our DM got the first set of the rules<BR>
>>ever shipped to the Pacific Northwest. And we played our first game not<BR>
>>that much later.<BR>
><BR>
>I was out of college 3 years already in 74 and found D&D while<BR>
>looking at AH wargames in the back of a card, gift and game store.<BR>
><BR>
>Does that make you feel younger?  <g><BR>
><BR>
>Eris,<BR>
>    old coot<BR>
>--<BR>
>-----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
>eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
>-----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
Holy Night!  You are an old fart!  ;^)<BR>
I was in 4th grade in 74 and still 5 years away from discovering D&D and<BR>
another year till Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
Middle -aged Fart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:57:39 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reprints<BR>
<BR>
I sure wish these were available via Warehouse 23.  I have never<BR>
been able to figure out Marc's web site...<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
<BR>
At 9:44 PM -0400 6/20/00, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>There is an announcement about the next book in the Classic Traveller reprint<BR>
>series at<BR>
><BR>
>http://members.aol.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:22:55 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
On 06/20/00 at 09:05 PM,  "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Holy Night!  You are an old fart!  ;^)<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, yeah, yeah!  But you don't have to rub it in. <g><BR>
<BR>
>I was in 4th grade in 74 and still 5 years away from discovering D&D and<BR>
>another year till Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
I was teaching eighth grade back in those days.  I've since<BR>
graduated to junior college since.  <g><BR>
<BR>
I started tinkering with DnD rules to let me run science fiction<BR>
games two years before Traveller came out.  I switched to Trav ASAP,<BR>
but I already had my own universes to play in and Trav, in the<BR>
beginning, didn't get in the way at all.  I suppose that's where my<BR>
Trav heresy was born. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:24:49 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reprints<BR>
<BR>
On 06/20/00 at 08:57 PM,  Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>I sure wish these were available via Warehouse 23.  I have never been<BR>
>able to figure out Marc's web site...<BR>
<BR>
Hum, I wonder why Warehouse 23 hasn't ordered some of the reprints for sale?  <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:20:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Trent Smith" <trentfs@ix.netcom.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reprints<BR>
<BR>
    Looking at the list of upcoming reprints I saw no mention of the Games<BR>
(Mayday thru Striker); one I was certain to buy.  Please don't tell me this<BR>
book has been scrapped.<BR>
    If it's because of the difficulty of reproducing the maps and counters<BR>
and such, let me say that those don't really matter to me (though perhaps<BR>
because I have the originals...); I was just really looking forward to<BR>
having the rulebooks for all those games (esp. Mayday, AHL, and Striker) in<BR>
one handy volume.  And I suspect I'm not the only one.<BR>
<BR>
Trent<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 22:17:55 -0500<BR>
From: "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: OT Re: Font info <BR>
<BR>
I found this site a couple of weeks ago while searching for new fonts, it<BR>
has a shareware program for making your own fonts and a tutorial.  Hope it<BR>
helps.<BR>
http://www.high-logic.com/download.html<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:17:29 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Kristian Miller writes:<BR>
> >>>of the free trader, which has only one entrance.  Kristian<BR>
> >>>was seriously reviewing the rules on breaching bulkheads<BR>
> >>>for a while.<BR>
> >>I would have done it too except for Erick's broadsword wielding maniac.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> For what it's worth, I once *delivered* a halberd from the smith who made<BR>
> it to the pub that had ordered it. I took the *bus*. Normal city bus.<BR>
> No problem except staying aware of where both ends were in respect to<BR>
> the people around me.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Something like this happened to some SCA/AAF  friends of mine...after a tourney<BR>
in a city park they were returning weapons, including a 12' pike,  to their car<BR>
parked nearby and were stopped by the police for 'carrying a concealable<BR>
weapon'...as it was recounted to me the first thought in both minds was 'bend<BR>
over officer...let's see if we can conceal it'. I think the cop walked them to<BR>
the car and made sure it was secure...<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> A true "pole ax" would be a much different matter. As would the really<BR>
> long pikes used in some places. But a mere 8 foot spear or axe is not a<BR>
> problem.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Other  Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:34:35 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Snub Pistol Gas Rounds<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
...<BR>
> come around a corner and into a corridor, then ran down the<BR>
> corridor and ran my man through.  My other guy then stepped<BR>
> into the corridor and hit the attacker with his broadsword.<BR>
>  (I still enjoy thinking about it.)<BR>
<BR>
Yea, I should have had him sit back and fire the gas rounds from his<BR>
snub pistol.<BR>
<BR>
But then we need to know what area of effect the snub pistol gas rounds<BR>
have.  Does anyone know the answer to this?<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:01:32 -0500<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Snub Pistol Gas Rounds et al<BR>
<BR>
Snip<BR>
<BR>
This thread is of some interest to our group; however,<BR>
I'd like to pose a question to the List (oh, almighty and<BR>
all (sic) knowing).<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone organized a listing of the various loads<BR>
or rounds that player/GM's/Gearheads have created for<BR>
the guns of Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
We recently had a pleasant hour or so talking ever various<BR>
penetrator rounds for PC in hour group and the subject of<BR>
pre-fractures crystal tipped bullets coated in a light teflon-like<BR>
substance was also briefly bruited about.<BR>
<BR>
In this vein, I thought that I bring this up for the List<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Pat Connaughton<BR>
pconn@i1.net<BR>
"Win ruthlessly, loose gracefully and<BR>
play the game with style!"<BR>
"Stormhound" <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:17:52 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: My Events at D*C 2000<BR>
<BR>
Some events of possible interest at Dragon*Con 2000:<BR>
<BR>
Meet SJ Games<BR>
Steve Jackson, GURPS TRAVELLER line editor Loren Wiseman, PYRAMID editor <BR>
Steven Marsh, and various SJ Games freelancers will talk about what's new and <BR>
what's coming up, and show off some unpublished material. Audience questions <BR>
will be welcomed.<BR>
<BR>
The Return of OGRE<BR>
OGRE was first published as a Microgame in 1977. Now, in 2000, it's being <BR>
re-released in the original form . . . and some new ones. Steve Jackson talks <BR>
about the process of turning a board game into a roleplaying game (and shows <BR>
off GURPS OGRE), discusses the trials and tribulations of miniatures <BR>
productions, displays unpublished material, and takes questions about the <BR>
future of OGRE.<BR>
<BR>
Whither Traveller?<BR>
The classic science fiction game TRAVELLER has found a new home in the GURPS <BR>
system. Loren Wiseman, one of the original designers, is now the GURPS <BR>
TRAVELLER line editor, and editor of the online "Journal of the Travellers' <BR>
Aid Society." Loren discusses all things TRAVELLER, shows off new and <BR>
upcoming material, and takes questions and suggestions.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:50:35 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: BIG Fleet Battles<BR>
<BR>
Hi all.<BR>
<BR>
I'm wondering if any of you have any suggestions for running truly<BR>
humungous fleet battles.  The kind of thing even HG would take too long<BR>
doing.  Of course, it's gonna be pretty abstract, but that's okay.  I'm<BR>
specifically thinking of The Second Battle of Zhimaway, where Arbellatra<BR>
met Gustus.  I'm thinking it would make a nice climax to the Civil War<BR>
campaign I'm cooking up. <BR>
<BR>
All suggestions appreciated!<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:10:17 -0500<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: Re: BIG Fleet Battles<BR>
<BR>
I've used a cross between High Guard and Full Thrust for<BR>
large fleet actions.<BR>
<BR>
Good Luck<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 11:50 PM<BR>
Subject: BIG Fleet Battles<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Hi all.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm wondering if any of you have any suggestions for running truly<BR>
> humungous fleet battles.  The kind of thing even HG would take too long<BR>
> doing.  Of course, it's gonna be pretty abstract, but that's okay.  I'm<BR>
> specifically thinking of The Second Battle of Zhimaway, where Arbellatra<BR>
> met Gustus.  I'm thinking it would make a nice climax to the Civil War<BR>
> campaign I'm cooking up. <BR>
> <BR>
> All suggestions appreciated!<BR>
> <BR>
> Charles C.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:11:45 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Snub Pistol Gas Rounds<BR>
<BR>
On 06/20/00 at 08:34 PM,  Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>...<BR>
>> come around a corner and into a corridor, then ran down the<BR>
>> corridor and ran my man through.  My other guy then stepped<BR>
>> into the corridor and hit the attacker with his broadsword.<BR>
>>  (I still enjoy thinking about it.)<BR>
<BR>
>Yea, I should have had him sit back and fire the gas rounds from his snub<BR>
>pistol.<BR>
<BR>
>But then we need to know what area of effect the snub pistol gas rounds<BR>
>have.  Does anyone know the answer to this?<BR>
<BR>
In CT, Broadsword is 4d and Snub Pistol with HE or HEAP is 4d,<BR>
right?  Is the broadsword's advantage range oriented?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:52:00 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: maps for Zhodani sectors<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> asks:<BR>
<BR>
>are there any maps detailing more than a dot-map for zhodani space?  I have<BR>
>found on the internet:<BR>
><BR>
>A map of two subsectors of Usingou at the Zhodani Files<BR>
>A map of Foreven sector at zho.berka.com<BR>
>Maps of Tienspevnekr and Zhdant in the nsc section of the Missouri Archives.<BR>
><BR>
>Anything I've missed?  Any comments on canonicity or lack thereof of any of <BR>
>these sources (I suspect low in all cases)?<BR>
<BR>
 Not quite. The dot map for Foreven is Canon, as are one set of subsector <BR>
names (the sector boasts several sets depending on which inhabitant you <BR>
ask...) and about a half-dozen actual worlds. Everything else is, by blanket <BR>
declaration of GDW in Imperiallines #1, non-Canon. They set the sector aside <BR>
as Referee's Preserve (what Chaosium used to call "Blank Lands"), promising <BR>
never to develop it beyond that level.<BR>
 The Usingou stuff is unofficial as far as I'm aware. I did a listing for <BR>
Usingou P a while back for HIWG publication, but I have no idea if you are <BR>
looking at the same stuff.<BR>
 The Zhdant and Tien maps were done under HIWG auspices about 6-7 years back. <BR>
Aside from frequent repeating on the Web and other places, they are not <BR>
official. If someone HAS made them official, they really should tell me, <BR>
since I did a LOT of the world naming for Zhdant, and Tienspevnekr is <BR>
entirely mine...<BR>
  I have the sector listing for Tienspevnekr (and probably Zhdant) on a disk <BR>
around here somewhere, as well as a preliminary listing for all of Usingou <BR>
(with dotmap pulled from Cogs & Dogs; OY my eyes!).<BR>
<BR>
Jim Kundert<BR>
gypsycomet@aol.com<BR>
Zhodani Sector Analyst (HIWG) - Retired<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:09:11 -0700<BR>
From: Mitchell Hudson <mitch@sirius.com><BR>
Subject: Mayday and Snapshot in SF<BR>
<BR>
    Hi all, after reasding all of those posts about "Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday" I am jazzed to play some snapshot and mayday again! I live in SF and was thinking to see<BR>
if anyone on the list also lived in SF and migh be up for a game at Gamescape on divisadero some time in the near future?<BR>
<BR>
- --M<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 03:59:45 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
<BR>
I missed this response the first time, but I love this sort of talk, so I<BR>
wanted to keep the thread going.<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
[I wrote:]<BR>
>>With that being said, the consequences of the coffee<BR>
>>scenario are not merely just like real life consequences,<BR>
>>but there are real life consequences which must be taken<BR>
>>into account.<BR>
><BR>
>This is a good and important point.  There may be<BR>
>consequences outside of the game, especially if a PC gets<BR>
>killed.<BR>
<BR>
Metagaming considerations[1] are the least well understood part of<BR>
roleplaying, but arguably the most important. The most prominent metagaming<BR>
consideration can be best summed up by doing a disservice to the bard, "To<BR>
kill or not to kill? That is the question."[2] Seriously, though, this is a<BR>
massively important issue, and it depends on what you and your players hope<BR>
to achieve by getting together for a game session. If you're really into<BR>
creating an accurate and believable simulation within the framework of a<BR>
given set of rules, you probably would scoff at such arbitrary<BR>
considerations. On the other hand, if you're playing a beer & pretzels, hack<BR>
& slash session, character death might not be a really big deal. After all,<BR>
the player of a dead character can cheer on his ex-comrades on from the<BR>
peanut gallery, or play the role of the boss of the orcs in the next room,<BR>
or the guy the party has to barter with for pressurized cannisters of soat's<BR>
milk. Whatever.<BR>
<BR>
It does become an issue for what I assume to be - perhaps incorrectly - the<BR>
majority of gaming groups, which seem to fall somewhere between these two<BR>
extremes. How do the rest of you Traveller folks handle the important "out<BR>
of game" considerations of things such as character death?<BR>
<BR>
>Where the PC is merely fired, it's not so clear.<BR>
>For example, what if the coffee incident happened in jump?<BR>
>The captain can't just space a fired crew member; the union<BR>
>contract prohibits it.  So you have this crew member aboard<BR>
>in the status of someone who's been fired effective<BR>
>probably upon arrival at the next world.  Or maybe the ship<BR>
>has a contractual obligation to return him to the place<BR>
>where he was hired.  He's still around for a lot of<BR>
>role-playing.<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough. I hadn't really considered the possibility that the firing<BR>
wouldn't result in the "termination" of the character.<BR>
<BR>
>If someone gets killed in Traveller that's probably it for<BR>
>that player for a while.<BR>
<BR>
Yep. All of the versions of Traveller, including the GURPS conversion, seem<BR>
to have involved character creation. This is one of the distinct advantages<BR>
of good, ol' fashioned, pre-proficiency AD&D. A new character can be up and<BR>
running in (literally) minutes. One custom that a group I was in used to<BR>
have was the creation of a "reserve" character. This was AD&D, so we kept<BR>
the reserve character a few levels lower than the active character. In a<BR>
pinch, it would be possible to insert the character into the campaign at a<BR>
convenient point.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, when I started composing this message, the classic Patrick Swayze<BR>
vehicle "Red Dawn" was being shown and for some reason I paused and thought,<BR>
"how would I design a system in which Red Dawn could be played". After<BR>
thinking a moment, I felt the best way to capture the feel of the film would<BR>
be to start the game with "ill-formed" characters: just a collection of<BR>
random stats. If it would be possible to "fine-tune" these random stats into<BR>
a more coherent set of abilities and skills during play, it would capture<BR>
the flavor of a rag-tag group of high school kids who find their abilities<BR>
under fire.<BR>
<BR>
It occurs to me that such a system, if it could be created, would be<BR>
extremely handy for replacing dead characters. A quick set of attributes<BR>
could be generated, as well as a character "concept" and this concept could<BR>
be fleshed out during play. This would require a simple and streamlined<BR>
"game mechanic" for when the player decides that he should specialize in a<BR>
given area. I might have to work on that a bit.<BR>
<BR>
>The referee has to think about a<BR>
>useful function for the player, and that's not always easy.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. It is tough. I've resurrected exactly one character in my GMing career<BR>
for that very reason.<BR>
<BR>
> Lethality should be low for this reason as well as for<BR>
>reasons of good role-playing.  Real people, with a few<BR>
>exceptions, tend to think pretty carefully about how to<BR>
>avoid getting killed.<BR>
<BR>
A reasonably bright party can avoid getting killed in a combat-light<BR>
campaign. However, it seems that Traveller has quite a few players who<BR>
believe in playing mercenary campaigns. I suspect that in such games it's<BR>
inevitable that the luck of individual characters will run out. However,<BR>
since the risk of character death is quite real at all times, I suspect that<BR>
people who play mercenary campaigns are after some aspect of role-playing<BR>
which I don't really identify with.<BR>
<BR>
[1] No, I don't mean deciding whether or not to buy a copy of Ogre here. By<BR>
metagaming considerations, I simply mean considering issues which are<BR>
outside of the scope of the game, but which actually have a direct influence<BR>
on the game.<BR>
<BR>
[2] I don't know why I like responding to Glenn's posts with Hamlet<BR>
references. Hell, I don't even know why I'm thinking of the Bard at all<BR>
lately. (sigh)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:34:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> > NOTE:  Take anything I say here with a large grain of salt; all<BR>
> > this was  occuring before I was born (Nov. 74)!<BR>
><BR>
> Gee, make me feel old why don't you?<BR>
><BR>
> I was *playing* D&D back in 74. Our DM got the first set of the rules<BR>
> ever shipped to the Pacific Northwest. And we played our first game not<BR>
> that much later.<BR>
<BR>
Well, seeing as I'm in New Zealand we were some six months behind in getting<BR>
it, and we played it once at a wargaming convention in Auckland and got<BR>
hooked, starting at 6.00pm in the evening and continuing to 3.00AM the next<BR>
morning, gettng my fighter to 5th level in one session !<BR>
<BR>
We then went home and made up our own rules while we waited for the guy who<BR>
owned the rules to  send us photocopies, because you couldn't buy things<BR>
from overseas back in those days without geting an act of parliament to<BR>
grant you the privelege of sending money overseas.<BR>
(Alright, I exaggerate, but it ws pretty damn difficult, import licenses and<BR>
all sorts of crap)<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:50:56 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: XML (was: system data format)<BR>
<BR>
Michael Koehne wrote:<BR>
>   I wont think that the new XML based format is yet processed by<BR>
>   any program.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know about your one, but the Sector DTD I put together is processed<BR>
by my own Java sector viewer, using XML4J as the parser, and dumping it<BR>
straight into a TreeModel and thence into a JTree. Pretty simple code<BR>
really.<BR>
<BR>
>   So as XML based sector format is 'pure vaporware',<BR>
>   we should upload it to OASIS to share place with the XML/EDI<BR>
>   vaporware of M$ ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, which one are you referring to ?<BR>
<BR>
Both of the major XML/EDI initiatives supported by Microsoft that I'm aware<BR>
of ( SOAP and BizTalk ) have implementations. The BizTalk server is not<BR>
released as a product yet, but the toolkit allows you to write code against<BR>
it, and there are tools for reading and editing BizTalk messages. SOAP is<BR>
already being used in multiple commercial installations, though I think most<BR>
of those are either using the UserLand or the IBM implementation rather than<BR>
the extremely buggy Microsoft version.<BR>
<BR>
Are you on DevelopMentor's SOAP specification list or any of the ebXML<BR>
working groups ?<BR>
I'm supposedly on the TA and the RegRep grooups, though since they "fixed"<BR>
their email server, I haven't received any messags on the lists.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, if you're into real XML implementations, have a look at Software AG's<BR>
Bolero/Tamino combination for development. We're going to be picking up<BR>
training for them here in NZ, so I'll be teaching XML/XSL as well as<BR>
Java/C++/0) soon.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2632<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 21 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2633<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
Re: Society and sex-change (WAS: Inbreeding)<BR>
Re : REVIEW : Alien Races 3<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Famile Spofulam corporate profile<BR>
TL9 Air defense weapons from Famile Spofulam<BR>
Re: Snub Pistol Gas Rounds et al<BR>
Vilani and other Languages<BR>
Re: My Events at D*C 2000<BR>
AAB Logo<BR>
DragonCon Attendees?<BR>
Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
RE: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
RE: large HTH weapons in starships<BR>
RE: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
Re: Historical Tech Levels<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:11:07 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> 	Does anyone else penalize broadsword use in a standard 148 cm wide<BR>
> 	by 223 cm high starship corridor?<BR>
<BR>
I don't usually bother, someone traind in broadsword can use it as a<BR>
thrusting weapon as well, and most sword attacks are strikes not swings, so<BR>
as long as the broadsword is short enough to be held upright at about neck<BR>
height without hitting the ceiling it should be fine.<BR>
<BR>
Of course large broadswords and greatswords would have difficulty.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I originally read this as referring to Broadsword mercenary<BR>
cruisers....<BR>
<BR>
>     Even a cutlass might be a little<BR>
> 	constrained in such quarters, but I'm generous since it is supposed<BR>
> 	to be the "standard shipboard weapon."  Halberds, pikes, etc. just<BR>
> 	don't strike me as efficient weapons in tight passageways.<BR>
<BR>
Pikes are _extremely_ efficient weapons in tight passageways, as long as yuo<BR>
can get them there in the first place.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, phalanxes were only beaten by beng outflanked, and you can't<BR>
outflank them in a corridor.  Of course, this assumes that people are not<BR>
using missile weapons or that the pike -weildrs have really effective<BR>
sheilds,<BR>
<BR>
> I also divide firearms into several categories depending on how much<BR>
> initiative will be penalized coming around corners in a  ship: rifles,<BR>
> carbines, smg's, and pistols.  How do people deal with these<BR>
> situations?<BR>
<BR>
I don't see the point. A trained rifleman can go round a corner just as<BR>
quickly as someone using a pistol, as long as there is enough room to move,<BR>
which there usually is unless there are lots of people in the corridor next<BR>
to him.<BR>
<BR>
I'd penalise someone carryng a Barret .50 or Boys AT or similar, but then<BR>
you'd be siilly to use one of those on the move.<BR>
<BR>
Penalties should really only apply when in hand to hand combat, and then<BR>
only in certain situations.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:33:18 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Society and sex-change (WAS: Inbreeding)<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen wrote :-<BR>
> Robert, isn't also true that certain tissues lose their receptivity to<BR>
> female hormones after long enough exposure to male hormones (i.e.,<BR>
> male-to-female transsexuals generally never get more than an 'A' cup once<BR>
> they start hormone therapy)?<BR>
<BR>
Receptor numbers fall in various tissues, so this is true. Recall that<BR>
oestrogens and androgens are present (and must be present) in<BR>
measureable levels in both sexes, only the proportions vary.<BR>
<BR>
> (IIRC, your hormone levels don't drop all that much after puberty, you just<BR>
> become acclimated to them)<BR>
Correct, until menopause. The male 'climacteric' is a much less dramatic<BR>
decline in hormone levels.<BR>
<BR>
> The thought of people simultaneously undergoing both male and female puberty<BR>
> has some interesting possibilities, to say the least.<BR>
The behavioural changes you have attributed to fluctuating hormone<BR>
levels are a little stereotyped. Let's just say that the emotional<BR>
turmoil of adolescence might be far more serene in comparison.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:34:00 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : REVIEW : Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
I got my copy of AR3 with ACQ - Warehouse 23 offers pretty good service.<BR>
<BR>
Pretty good stuff - I largely agree with Doug Berry. Unfortunately the<BR>
Inheritors pressed a different set of buttons for me.<BR>
<BR>
Fluorine breathing? Fluorocarbon biochemistry? Caste-system based<BR>
(another race)?<BR>
Ugh. I should have yelled a lot louder on the playtest list.<BR>
<BR>
> Overall:  The usual good artwork, excellent writing.<BR>
> Penguin Boy says: Check it out.<BR>
<BR>
Agreed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:38:03 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
> From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
> Subject: Hitting Ships<BR>
><BR>
> Hi all.<BR>
><BR>
> We've been over this before, but in light of the recent Fighter debates, I<BR>
> thought I'd trot this formula out:<BR>
><BR>
> s=(1206.874*g^2*R^4)/(V^.666666);<BR>
><BR>
> The above formula gives you approximately the number of shots needed to<BR>
> guarantee one hit against a ship, where g is acceleration in gs, R<BR>
> is range in light-seconds, and V is target volume in m^3 (= 14 times<BR>
> tons). See below for derivation.  The formula assumes that the rounds<BR>
> fired at the target are long enough to transverse the sphere the target<BR>
> could occupy following a detection/return fire lag. It assumes zero<BR>
> processing time between detection and fire.  Note that the prob of any one<BR>
> shot hitting is about 1/s (but see below).<BR>
><BR>
> Some interesting results:<BR>
><BR>
> V              R            g           s         Notes<BR>
><BR>
> 140            .5 ls        6         100.7       10 ton Fighter<BR>
><BR>
> 1400           .5 ls        2           2.4       100 ton Scout<BR>
><BR>
> 14 000 000     .5 ls        4           0.02      1 Mton Battlecarrier<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
With these odds, lets look at a Famile Spofulam rapid-fire lasers shooting<BR>
at one shot per 2.5 seconds, with 250 seconds fire  ...<BR>
<BR>
The chance of missing is 99%. So with 100 shots, we should miss every time<BR>
with odds (0.99)^100, or 36% of the time.<BR>
<BR>
Thus, with 10 lasers firing, we should ace 6 fighters every 4 minutes or so.<BR>
<BR>
How many of the little buggers are we facing, anyway ? Remember that a<BR>
fighter that size is unlikely to have weapons that penetrate the armour on<BR>
any warship built by FS.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Now, because people will likely ignore this unless I say something<BR>
> inflamatory, let me speak thusly:  Fighters are IMPOSSIBLE to hit!  You<BR>
> could NEVER hit them!  Battleships are SITTING DUCKS!  No wonder there are<BR>
> fighters in the OTU, they RULE! :-)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
You can believe that if you want.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Some other thoughts:<BR>
> The probability of any one shot hitting is, on average, 1/s, but figuring<BR>
> this out is complicated by the fact that the ship potentially occupies a<BR>
> spherical area and shots fired through the middle of the sphere will<BR>
> trasverse a greater volume than shots fired through edge regions.  Anyone<BR>
> have a handle on how to determine the chances of scoring a hit with X<BR>
> shots?<BR>
<BR>
Yeah. Use average facing surface area, which in the case of our theoretical<BR>
10 dton fighter of 6.44 m diameter, or 3.22 m radius, which is thus<BR>
pi*radius^2, or pi*3.44^2, or about 37.2 m2.<BR>
<BR>
With 2 seconds of lag (one second back, one second for the laser to get<BR>
there) our 6 gee fighter can get 0.5*60*4, or 120 meters away. Thus, it can<BR>
describe a circle of radius 120 meters, or area 45244 square meters.<BR>
<BR>
This fits 1216 fighter-profiles (45244 m2 divided by 37.2 m).<BR>
<BR>
Thus, our chance of hitting with each shot is 1-(1/1216), or 0.99912.<BR>
<BR>
This to the power of 100 is 92 point one percent.<BR>
<BR>
Therefore, at those odds with ten batteries firing, we can ace about one<BR>
fighter per 4 minutes.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, we can put ten of these fast-firing lasers on a 1000 dton ship.<BR>
<BR>
Thus, the warship can attrit the fighters. Can the fighters hurt the warship<BR>
?<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:26:19 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Famile Spofulam corporate profile<BR>
<BR>
Famile Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
HQ:   split between <classified>, <illegible> and the Sayat Concourse<BR>
<BR>
Employees:  Legal advice is pending on the defintions of  'employee',<BR>
'non-executive shareholding director', 'decorative throw rug' and 'office<BR>
equipment'<BR>
<BR>
Range/influence:  That depends. How worried are *you* that Ditzie may decide<BR>
your planet makes a good test range ?<BR>
<BR>
Public Image: See Above<BR>
<BR>
R&D: Yes<BR>
<BR>
Turnover:  Frankly, that depends on who's asking and what drugs Accounts<BR>
have been taking lately<BR>
<BR>
Nature: An official policy of FS is to be in favour of Nature. At least<BR>
while Ciphenaga is interested in it.<BR>
<BR>
Area of operations: Depends. How far can we get until the Little Yellow<BR>
Pills run out ?<BR>
<BR>
Tradition: that depends on how many historians we have got at lately. Note<BR>
that Hengabar's autobiography is classed as 'speculative fiction' in three<BR>
out of five interstellar polities (due to administrative sloppiness, it is<BR>
regarded as a document relating to an Initial Public Offer for an inter-clan<BR>
war in Aslan space, and as a software design manual among the Hivers)<BR>
<BR>
Corporate Politics:  There is no corporate politics within FS. And have we<BR>
tried out the new Californium rounds on Marketing's new Corporate Liason<BR>
Group yet ?<BR>
<BR>
Paranoia:  Frankly, that depends on who's asking and what drugs Accounts<BR>
have been taking lately.<BR>
<BR>
Nationality: This is subject to a pending legal case on Capital/Capital, and<BR>
has been for some time. Legals are expecting a decision sometime before the<BR>
heat death of the universe.<BR>
<BR>
Date of this profile:  Depends who's asking and what drugs Accounts have<BR>
been taking.<BR>
<BR>
 This is Famile Spofulam, dammit.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:42:33 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: TL9 Air defense weapons from Famile Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
To : Hengabar Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
From : Ditzie Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
Re : TL9 Air Defense weapons<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dear Uncie,<BR>
<BR>
Weee've done it. Weee've built some poiiiint deefense weapons for for for<BR>
eeeexport maaarkets.<BR>
<BR>
We built a little laser-waser which we arent weeealy happy-wappy wif, an an<BR>
an weee've built a zappity-zap-zap-zap PAWsie wasie.<BR>
<BR>
Weee built them at techie-wechie niiine, an an an weee weckon that<BR>
flyyyyboys had betta betta betta mooove to gwav veeeehicle with adequaaaaate<BR>
armaaaaaaa.<BR>
<BR>
I wouldnt sellie-well the laaaaaser-waser, exvcept maybe to that naaasty Mr<BR>
Zhunatsu. It's siiix point siiix seven tons, an an an threee point six seven<BR>
cuuubic meter-weters, an an an it hits with niiine megajoooules of output so<BR>
so so it will punchie-wunchie throuuugh one cennimeter of cwystaliron. It<BR>
holds the beamie-weamie together to siiix point siiix kiwometers in a<BR>
staaaandard atmosphere an an an it costs one hunnerd an twenny four<BR>
kilocwedits without staaabiliser, bawwistic computer or or or the actual<BR>
point defense wig. It fiwers once every twenny seconds, coz it has to cool<BR>
cool coolie down, an an an it needs thiiirty megajoooules of inpuuut. The<BR>
focal awwway is vewy vewy biiig at twooooo meters diiiameter, but but but<BR>
that isnt toooo bad for techie-wechie niiine Iiiiii guess.<BR>
<BR>
The small zappity-zap-zap-zap PAWsie wasie is is is fooour meters long, an<BR>
an an has a diaammeter of fifffty cennimeters an an an it has agwessive<BR>
coooooling so so so that it shoots evewy twooo point five second-weckons.<BR>
<BR>
It's voooolume is is is one point seven free cuuubic meters an an an it<BR>
masses one point seffen free tons.<BR>
<BR>
Weee wigged it up to go zappity-zap-zap at fooour megajoules of ouuutput, or<BR>
or or twenny megaaajoules of input, buut but but we tested it to<BR>
siiiiixteeeeen.<BR>
<BR>
If if if you have foooour megajouules of output, then then then you need<BR>
twooo cubic meters, or fouuur tons of accuuuumulator, costing twenny<BR>
kilocwedits. If you wanna uuuuse all siiixten, then then then theeese<BR>
nummers go up by a faaactor of four. Uuuunless accounting-wounting are<BR>
dooing the maaaths.<BR>
<BR>
They uuuuse a beam pointer-wointer that is is is zeeero point free eight<BR>
fiiive tons an an an the saaame volume, cept in cuuubic meter-weters, an an<BR>
an that bittie-wittie costs kay-ceee-arrr thiiirty eight.<BR>
<BR>
Your loving cousin,<BR>
<BR>
Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
*************************<BR>
<BR>
One thing I was surprised to see was the superiority of PAWs over lasers for<BR>
battlefield use at TL9. Hmm, that might change if I switch to grav focussing<BR>
...<BR>
<BR>
This will also drop off over time as laser range factors get better.<BR>
<BR>
Someone else can drag the actual stats out of the Ditzie-speak, and rate it<BR>
for a combat system.<BR>
<BR>
At four point one tons and a power demand of about 8 megawatts (eleven m3 of<BR>
Advanced IC Turbine will power that), you should be able to put it into a<BR>
TL8 medium tank chassis, and it simply knocks aircraft out of the sky. It<BR>
will also see a role onboard ship to splat anti-shipping missiles out to<BR>
line of sight and they may assist against artillery fire (although I suspect<BR>
that TL9 point defense would only be up to shooting down slow-moving<BR>
missiles and aircraft). 4 MJ of output is a DV of fourteen or so, which will<BR>
punch 2 cm of Light Ceramic Composite armour, or five centimeters of hard<BR>
steel. The 16 MJ version will go through double that.<BR>
<BR>
PAWs also have the plus of not being worried about smoke or aerosols ...<BR>
which is useful when people use smoke and chaff for counter-battery fire.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 07:04:07 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Snub Pistol Gas Rounds et al<BR>
<BR>
we've used explosive and gas rounds for bows and crossbows in <BR>
MT and T4<BR>
<BR>
we just treat them as the equivilant snub pistol round for <BR>
damage/penetration, but the bow/crossbow ranges.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 07:11:26 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: Vilani and other Languages<BR>
<BR>
So, we started generating characters for my AAB campaign last <BR>
night.  I was going back through old notes and found the <BR>
Vilani/English list from the TLDL -it's dated 1998.  The website has <BR>
not changed.  Is the project still in existence?  I tried the mailing <BR>
list but it bounced.<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
- -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:40:23 +0200<BR>
From: "Volker Alexander Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de><BR>
Subject: Re: My Events at D*C 2000<BR>
<BR>
On 21 Jun 2000, at 0:17, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Whither Traveller?<BR>
> The classic science fiction game TRAVELLER has found a new home in the GURPS <BR>
> system. Loren Wiseman, one of the original designers, is now the GURPS <BR>
> TRAVELLER line editor, and editor of the online "Journal of the Travellers' <BR>
> Aid Society." Loren discusses all things TRAVELLER, shows off new and <BR>
> upcoming material, and takes questions and suggestions.<BR>
A synopsis of the discussed topics would be nice for those of us <BR>
that cant be there!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 07:54:43 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: AAB Logo<BR>
<BR>
Along the same lines, has anyone ever come across an official <BR>
AAB logo?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 08:00:17 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: DragonCon Attendees?<BR>
<BR>
So, who on this list is planning to attend DragonCon?  Besides Loren,<BR>
that is.<BR>
<BR>
I'm considering doing the whole coast-to-coast con attendance thing<BR>
(BayCon and DragonCon)....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:27:29 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
<BR>
A question for the mathematically inclined:  What is a good approximation<BR>
of ship cross-section?  It'll be based on configuration, of course: For a<BR>
cube, the minimum xs is volume^.66. But what is the "average" cross<BR>
section for a cube?  What about 2:1:1 box?  A sphere is easy...but what<BR>
about other shapes? <BR>
<BR>
Any pointers would be appreciated...<BR>
<BR>
Charles.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:34:08 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
> A question for the mathematically inclined:  What is a good approximation<BR>
> of ship cross-section?  It'll be based on configuration, of course: For a<BR>
> cube, the minimum xs is volume^.66. But what is the "average" cross<BR>
> section for a cube?  What about 2:1:1 box?  A sphere is easy...but what<BR>
> about other shapes? <BR>
<BR>
But how useful would "average" cross-sections be?  A needle-shaped ship,<BR>
for instance, would surely keep either its narrow bow or stern towards its<BR>
opponents, whenever possible.<BR>
                                                               - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:12:06 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: RE: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Chris Seamans" <BR>
> Yep. All of the versions of Traveller, including the GURPS conversion,<BR>
> seem to have involved character creation. <BR>
<BR>
Book 1?  <BR>
<BR>
It's pretty easy to fake up characters if you know how many skills they are<BR>
likely to have.<BR>
<BR>
Let's see:<BR>
<BR>
Stats:  umm, 567A98 (I made them up.  The 5 Strength is a worry, but I<BR>
really only hate the 6 Dex.  Fudge it up to average.)  577A98, then.<BR>
<BR>
Let's see:  how about we churn out a Merchant?  Merchant commissions are<BR>
easy, but promotions are hard.  We'll make the guy 30 (so we don't need to<BR>
make aging rolls).  <BR>
<BR>
Skills:  None automatic.  2 for first term, another 2 for the next couple. <BR>
1 for commission, and give him another for a randomly handwaved promotion. <BR>
6 skills.  <BR>
<BR>
Umm, I don't know the tables, so let's just pick them:<BR>
Navigation-2, AutoPistol-1, Grav Vehicle(Air/Raft)-1, Vacc Suit-1,<BR>
Computer-1<BR>
<BR>
Mustering out rolls are a bit of a worry: you might have to look them up.<BR>
<BR>
Here is your character:<BR>
Eneri Chudor<BR>
Merchant 3rd Officer <BR>
Age 30 <BR>
3 Terms<BR>
Cr ??<BR>
<BR>
577A98<BR>
Navigation-2, AutoPistol-1, Grav Vehicle(Air/Raft)-1, Vacc Suit-1,<BR>
Computer-1<BR>
<BR>
Possessions: ??<BR>
<BR>
That's a character at the bottom end of capabilities.  If you want someone<BR>
tougher, give them more skills.<BR>
<BR>
OK, you don't have all the information you get from a Mercenary/High Guard<BR>
etc Chargen system, but you have a character you can play, and I just<BR>
sucked it straight out of my thumb.<BR>
<BR>
The other option is computerised Chargen.  The old Traveller computer games<BR>
that are floating around somewhere have at least a subset of MT chargen. <BR>
I'm sure someone has Chargen programs around somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, when I started composing this message, the classic Patrick<BR>
> Swayze vehicle "Red Dawn" was being shown and for some reason I paused<BR>
> and thought, "how would I design a system in which Red Dawn could be<BR>
> played". <BR>
<BR>
Don't do it.  You know you will regret it in the morning.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:35:19 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: large HTH weapons in starships<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>Does anyone else penalize broadsword use in a standard 148 cm wide<BR>
>>by 223 cm high starship corridor?  Even a cutlass might be a little<BR>
>>constrained in such quarters, but I'm generous since it is supposed<BR>
>>to be the "standard shipboard weapon." <BR>
>I just checked and the hallway in my apartment is only 35" wide (call<BR>
>it 89 cm). You *could* fight in there with a sword, *especially* with a<BR>
>ceiling that high. Broadswords actually tend to be *shorter* than<BR>
>cutlasses, if I recall correctly. <BR>
<BR>
	I would have sworn that the broadsword was longer, but I may be<BR>
	mistaken (no news there).  Of course you could fight in there,<BR>
	I do not disallow weapons or even reduce damage.  However, I do<BR>
	assume that the number of options available to the attacker are<BR>
	lower.<BR>
<BR>
>>Halberds, pikes, etc. just<BR>
>>don't strike me as efficient weapons in tight passageways.<BR>
>Pikes are a *thrusting* weapon. And halberds are intended for *short*<BR>
>chopping swings as well as thrusting with the spike. You just don't<BR>
>*make* wide swings with it. The only problem would be with getting<BR>
>around corners.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Again, I do not bar the use of these weapons in narrow hallways.<BR>
	IIRC the halberd is as long as the standard hall is wide.  This<BR>
	should restrict it's use somewhat.  The pike is just a problem<BR>
	going around corners, changing direction, using air locks, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:43:49 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond writes:<BR>
>>>Halberds, pikes, etc. just<BR>
>>>don't strike me as efficient weapons in tight passageways.<BR>
>>Pikes are a *thrusting* weapon. And halberds are intended for *short*<BR>
>>chopping swings as well as thrusting with the spike. You just don't<BR>
>>*make* wide swings with it. The only problem would be with getting<BR>
>>around corners.<BR>
>Agreed. The main point I would like raise is *why* do so many people read<BR>
>through CT and come away with the impression that it's a game about people<BR>
>in spaceships, wearing Battledress and wielding medieval polearms! I know<BR>
>*several* players who just can't seem to get that image out of their heads.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	For the record, this thread started up when someone pointed out that<BR>
	a broadsword could be very effective on board a ship.  That being<BR>
	said, it could be that the LBB rules themselves are to blame.  It<BR>
	was easy to roll up a Marine character without any firearm skill,<BR>
	but all Marines know how to use a cutlass, the "standard shipboard<BR>
	weapon" IIRC.  While Army officers picked up SMG, Marine officers<BR>
	got Revolver.  That sounds like a wimpy weapon for a bunch of<BR>
	Marines equiped with autorifles and laser carbines.  Then there<BR>
	is COTI, with the automatic skill for pirates being brawling rather<BR>
	than gun combat.  Don't get me wrong, IMTU the Marines carry nasty<BR>
	firearms and energy weapons, but I can see where people get the<BR>
	impression about Marines and HTH combat.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:18:06 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >> Nope, there's *no* advantage whatsoever. Because if you maintain a<BR>
> >> constant velocity, you can be hit dead center by a laser or PAW at<BR>
> >> *any* range.<BR>
> >> And as I showed above, the distance you can evade by depends on range,<BR>
> >> and on your acceleration, *nothing* else.<BR>
<BR>
> > Yes but if you are traveling faster you will be within range<BR>
> > for a shorter period of time. it would seem to be preferable <BR>
> > to be in the enemies firing range for less time <BR>
<BR>
> The disadvantage to really high relative velocities is that if you are<BR>
> moving really, really fast, it takes a longer time to change your<BR>
> course by a given angle. Thus, they can be more certain that you'll<BR>
> pass through a given region of space. Which means they can scatter<BR>
> *dust* in it, and watch the dust, too fine for sensors to pick up, tear<BR>
> your ship apart.<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking more of a ship jumping in with a relatively<BR>
high velocity firing at its target and jumping out rather<BR>
than making another normal space pass.<BR>
<BR>
> Hell, *natural* dust will chew the hell out of you at that speed. Think<BR>
> of a bird strike out a jet, only *trillions* of times worse.<BR>
<BR>
Yes it sure will if it hits you. The question is if your ship<BR>
can do more damage than it receives. Therefore if your ship<BR>
is able to damage or destroy bigger more expensive ships its<BR>
own loss is less important.<BR>
<BR>
Given that larger weapons often have longer ranges a larger ship<BR>
may be able to make smaller ships stand off. If the smaller<BR>
ship wants to get inside the effective range of the other ship<BR>
it may need to be moving at high speed. If probability of being<BR>
hit per minute is x than probability of not being hit is (1 - x).<BR>
If you are in range for 100 minutes the probability of not being<BR>
hit is (1 - x)^ 100. If you are in range for one minute your<BR>
probability of not being hit is (1 - x).<BR>
<BR>
> > For example if your enemy's weapons have a ten light second<BR>
> > maximum range and you are moving at 0.5 C (relative to them)<BR>
> > than you will be in range for no more than 40 seconds [1]. If<BR>
> > you are stationary (relative to them) than you will be in range<BR>
> > forever.<BR>
<BR>
> If you are moving .5 c, you'll get to shoot at them for 40 seconds<BR>
> about once a *month*. <BR>
<BR>
Velocity is maintained in jump. It would be more effective to<BR>
micro jump out, appear a few million klicks away a week later a<BR>
nd make another pass. Thus you could make a pass every week (as <BR>
long as your fuel holds up). Admittedly once a week is not often<BR>
but its better than once a month.<BR>
<BR>
> Work out how long it'll take to decelerate to a<BR>
> stop, and then allow an equal time to accelerate back for another pass.<BR>
> Then figure out how *far* you'll travel during the deceleration. <BR>
<BR>
Not if you jump.<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking more of attacking a ship that is blockading a<BR>
planet of yours hoping to destroy the ship and break the blockade.<BR>
If the blockading ship has longer range weaopons than your ship<BR>
doews than you may need to accept a tactic that will get you inside<BR>
its range whatever other shortcomings it may have. I am not<BR>
suggesting that this would be a common or usually effective<BR>
techniquie I am simply suggesting that it might occasionally<BR>
be useful.<BR>
<BR>
If a Tigress Costs MCr 362,721 and a crew of 4,054 and a Scout <BR>
ship costs MCr 29.43 and has a crew of one (CT Sup 9) than you <BR>
may well be better off loosing 1,000 Scout ships destroying that<BR>
Tigress and breaking the siege. Given that you will need a fair<BR>
ammount of time to boost these ships to near C velocities you<BR>
will need some lag time to get the program started. Once<BR>
you get your kamikazee scout ship program going you may be<BR>
able to have a 0.5 C Scout ship possing out of jump near<BR>
the Tigress every hour or so and trying to destroy it.<BR>
<BR>
Of course if you have a thousand Scout ships and you can get<BR>
them to all jump in simultaneously you might be able to<BR>
simply attack and destroy the Tigeress using conventional<BR>
methods but my perception would be that the Tigress's weapons<BR>
would so far outrange the Scout ships that they would have an<BR>
exceedingly high chance per minute of destroying the Scout<BR>
ship. A speed of 0.5 C might alter this equation.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:36:48 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Historical Tech Levels<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote<BR>
> >> The advantages of TL 15 over TL 13 for<BR>
> >> a type A Freetrader are minimal, <BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
> >This is not true in MT.<BR>
> >TL 15 power plants are half the size of TL 14 ones and a third <BR>
> >the size of TL 13 ones in MT.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote<BR>
> I thought the double size was TL 13-14, treble at TL 11-12.<BR>
> <mumble> but I don't have any books handy </mumble><BR>
<BR>
The obvious answer is to buy another set, MT rules sets<BR>
seem to run about $ 20 US here in the US.<BR>
<BR>
TL 9 - 12 Fusion plants produce 2 MW/kl, TL 13-14 plants<BR>
produce 3 MW/kl, TL 15 plants produce 6 MW/kl, and<BR>
TL 16 plants produce 7 MW/kl. (Before scale efficiency<BR>
is included, plants whose volume is 10+ kl are twice this<BR>
effective and plants that are 14+ kl in volume have three<BR>
times this effectiveness. Hence a starship sized TL 13 plant<BR>
produces 6 MW/kl and a TL 15 one produces 18 MW/kl.) <BR>
<BR>
This is probably a big part of the reason that the Imperium<BR>
beat the Solomani in the Rim War. The first TL 15 ships rolled<BR>
off the assembly line right before the war. Given that the<BR>
TL 15 ships had power plants half the size of the TL 14 Solomani<BR>
ships they could devote more space to other components. This<BR>
is also a big part of the Imperium does so well against the <BR>
Zhodani.<BR>
 <BR>
> To counter this, your TL15 credits buy more ship at TL13 due to the<BR>
> exchange rates.<BR>
<BR>
In reality they probably would but given that the MT rules do<BR>
not make this exchange rate distinction when buying ships this<BR>
is a moot point.<BR>
<BR>
> With HG/TCS, your best solution is to build the free trader at a TL9<BR>
> B port. Freight it to a TL9 A port to fit the jump drive and then<BR>
> ship in a TL15 power plant (with the TL9 backwards compatible power<BR>
> couplings and computer interface).<BR>
<BR>
I'm not a big High Guard or Book 2 fan. I think that these<BR>
systems are too general and allow the construction of ships<BR>
that are not permitted at that TL such as a book 2 TL 9 ship<BR>
with Jump 4 or even Jump 6.<BR>
<BR>
> I think this also works in MT - although you would probably want to<BR>
> ship in more high tech components.<BR>
<BR>
The exchange rate gimmick is not available in MT. Moreover<BR>
the MT starship construction rules say that only a limited<BR>
number of systems (one or two) can be built with a different<BR>
TL than the ships base TL. For example Capitol is TL 15 (in<BR>
Milieu 1100) but is TL 16 in computers. Therefore you should<BR>
be able to build a mostly TL 15 ship with TL 16 computers<BR>
at Capitol if you'd like.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2633<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2634</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/21/00 11:16:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 21 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2634<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
Re: AAB Logo<BR>
Re: Mayday and Snapshot in SF<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Historical Tech Levels<BR>
Re: AAB Logo<BR>
$CPAN->{Games::Traveller}<BR>
Re: Vilani Women<BR>
Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
Re: Traveller Reprints 1<BR>
Re: Traveller Reprints 2<BR>
Re: Traveller Reprints 1<BR>
Re: Traveller Reprints 1<BR>
Re: Historical tech levels<BR>
Re: Traveller Reprints 1<BR>
Re: Traveller Reprints 2<BR>
RE: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
RE: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
More ADC2 game stuff<BR>
Re: Traveller Reprints<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
RE: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:07:30 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
> We've been over this before, but in light of the recent <BR>
> Fighter debates, I thought I'd trot this formula out: <BR>
> <BR>
> s=(1206.874*g^2*R^4)/(V^.666666);<BR>
> <BR>
<snip rest of interesting post><BR>
<BR>
I think, if I've  understood  your  post  properly,  that  you've<BR>
missed something conceptually:<BR>
<BR>
You are saying you have a target with a relative  cross-sectional<BR>
area of X, which during the turn could move to  any  point  of  a<BR>
sphere from its center with a relative cross-sectional area of Y,<BR>
and so if your laser beam passes through that sphere there  is  a<BR>
chance of intersecting the target based on  comparing  these  two<BR>
relative cross-sectional areas.  (My English  teacher's  spinning<BR>
in her grave at such a run-on sentence.)<BR>
<BR>
The problem with this is that an intersection  of  the  beam  and<BR>
target does not automatically mean the  target  is  damaged  (and<BR>
this is what we are really interested in).  To do damage the beam<BR>
must deliver a minimum  amount  of  energy  to  a  point  on  the<BR>
target's surface.  If the target passes through the beam  quickly<BR>
enough all you will do is heat up part of the hull slightly.  (If<BR>
this were not so then the amount of damage inflicted  could  vary<BR>
depending on the path of the  target  ...  a  curved  path  could<BR>
result in multiple intersections and therefore multiple hits from<BR>
a single 'shot'.)<BR>
<BR>
Therefore part of the firing solution has to involve locking  the<BR>
beam onto a fixed point  on  the  target  and  holding  it  there<BR>
(tracking the target movement) for  the  turn's  duration.  Given<BR>
the length of a turn in space combat is 1000 seconds you can  see<BR>
that the beam tracking issue becomes the dominant factor  and  so<BR>
the *overall* size of the target becomes somewhat irrelevant.<BR>
<BR>
The target's agility Vs your ability  to  predict  its  movements<BR>
become the deciding factors.  Multiple beams in the same  battery<BR>
mean multiple guesses ... which  is  why  larger  batteries  have<BR>
greater "to hit" chances but not greater damage rolls.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Now, because people will likely ignore this unless I say<BR>
> something inflamatory, let me speak thusly:  Fighters are<BR>
> IMPOSSIBLE to hit!  You could NEVER hit them!  Battleships are<BR>
> SITTING DUCKS!  No wonder there are fighters in the OTU, they<BR>
> RULE! :-)<BR>
<BR>
With this I agree:  Fighters should  (except  in  CT)  have  much<BR>
better agility than battleships.  Thus the battleship  must  rely<BR>
on passive defence  (armour  and  capacity  to  take  damage)  to<BR>
outlast the harassing fighters.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 07:11:45 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >This is a good and important point.  There may be<BR>
> >consequences outside of the game, especially if a PC gets<BR>
> >killed.<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, when I started composing this message, the classic Patrick Swayze<BR>
> vehicle "Red Dawn" was being shown and for some reason I paused and thought,<BR>
> "how would I design a system in which Red Dawn could be played".<BR>
> It occurs to me that such a system, if it could be created, would be<BR>
> extremely handy for replacing dead characters.<BR>
<BR>
Given that most of the characters in the movie who were<BR>
killed were not replaced this might not be the best simulation<BR>
of the movie. I just watched it for the first time myself. In the<BR>
movie the 'party' went from six teenagers, to eight when the<BR>
two girls joined, to nine when the Air Force Pilot joined, to<BR>
seven when the pilot & one of the teenage boys were killed, to<BR>
six when the 'traitor' was executed, to five after the helicopter<BR>
attack, to four after the next attack. Then two of the party<BR>
'retired' at least one of them (Lea Thompsons character) survived<BR>
the war, and the last two party members attacked the town. In this<BR>
attack one of them was severely wounded and may well have died soon<BR>
thereafter. Replacing dead PC's would have changed the whole<BR>
mood of the film.<BR>
<BR>
> >The referee has to think about a<BR>
> >useful function for the player, and that's not always easy.<BR>
<BR>
If the player is not sufficiently amused by watching he can<BR>
always leave. Presumably the player did not want his character<BR>
to die but if the charecter had zero risk of dying it might<BR>
well be a less interesting game.<BR>
<BR>
> > Lethality should be low for this reason as well as for<BR>
> >reasons of good role-playing.  Real people, with a few<BR>
> >exceptions, tend to think pretty carefully about how to<BR>
> >avoid getting killed.<BR>
<BR>
I think that the chief way real people avoid getting killed<BR>
is by not being adventurers in the first place. It seems to me<BR>
that most PC's are already self selected for being less risk<BR>
averse than the general population. If I were playing myself as<BR>
a charecter I would probably 'quit the party' (i.e. avoid<BR>
associating with the other people in it) after about half an<BR>
adventure.<BR>
<BR>
One of my theories is that most PC's are the products of extremely<BR>
dysfunctional families. I figure that many PC's are the product<BR>
of physically, emotionally, and/or sexually abusive homes. Given<BR>
how the hell they grew up in has affected their charecters they<BR>
tend to react abnormally (i.e. more like PC's and less like<BR>
people). Many of the players I know never bother to figure<BR>
out if their charecter has siblings, if their parents live,<BR>
etc. Given that their charecter never mention their families<BR>
at all I figure many of them are avoiding their dysfunctional<BR>
abusive families.<BR>
<BR>
Disclaimer: I am not implying that all people from dysfunctional<BR>
families are screwed up nor am I implying that all people from<BR>
'normal' homes are OK I am merely suggesting a positive correlation<BR>
between the two factors.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:17:00 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: AAB Logo<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/21/00 7:40:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>  AAB Logo<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Along the same lines, has anyone ever come across an official <BR>
>  AAB logo?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Not that I know of (I was looking for one though....). Someone on the <BR>
travcult list did come up with something of a motto though....<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 08:15:06<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mayday and Snapshot in SF<BR>
<BR>
At 12:09 AM 6/21/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>    Hi all, after reasding all of those posts about "Traveller boardgaming<BR>
at Kristian Miller's last Saturday" I am jazzed to play some snapshot and<BR>
mayday again! I live in SF and was thinking to see<BR>
>if anyone on the list also lived in SF and migh be up for a game at<BR>
Gamescape on divisadero some time in the near future?<BR>
<BR>
There are a bunch of us, and we have our own little mailing list.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.egroups.com/community/TravellerinSF<BR>
<BR>
You just missed the BayCon Party, but can see the photos at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/baycon_2000.htm<BR>
<BR>
Sign up for the Trav in SF list now, since I'm going to be announcing a new<BR>
game there soon.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:32:42 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
Frank Pitt writes:<BR>
>>Does anyone else penalize broadsword use in a standard 148 cm wide<BR>
>>by 223 cm high starship corridor?<BR>
>I don't usually bother, someone traind in broadsword can use it as a<BR>
>thrusting weapon as well, and most sword attacks are strikes not swings, so<BR>
>as long as the broadsword is short enough to be held upright at about neck<BR>
>height without hitting the ceiling it should be fine.<BR>
<BR>
	I penalize the roll to hit, I do not disallow the attack.  The<BR>
	suggestion is that the attacker must modify their attack, and<BR>
	perhaps have fewer options.<BR>
<BR>
>Of course large broadswords and greatswords would have difficulty.<BR>
>BTW, I originally read this as referring to Broadsword mercenary<BR>
>cruisers....<BR>
<BR>
	My players would bring the cruiser down the hall, given half a<BR>
	chance...<BR>
<BR>
>>Even a cutlass might be a little<BR>
>>constrained in such quarters, but I'm generous since it is supposed<BR>
>>to be the "standard shipboard weapon."  Halberds, pikes, etc. just<BR>
>>don't strike me as efficient weapons in tight passageways.<BR>
>Pikes are _extremely_ efficient weapons in tight passageways, as long as yuo<BR>
>can get them there in the first place.<BR>
>Remember, phalanxes were only beaten by beng outflanked, and you can't<BR>
>outflank them in a corridor.  Of course, this assumes that people are not<BR>
>using missile weapons or that the pike -weildrs have really effective<BR>
>sheilds,<BR>
<BR>
	Agreed.  I would consider preventing a cutlass-wielding Marine from<BR>
	getting close enough to a pikeman to attack, if the pike scored a hit.<BR>
<BR>
>>I also divide firearms into several categories depending on how much<BR>
>>initiative will be penalized coming around corners in a  ship: rifles,<BR>
>>carbines, smg's, and pistols.  How do people deal with these<BR>
>>situations?<BR>
>I don't see the point. A trained rifleman can go round a corner just as<BR>
>quickly as someone using a pistol, as long as there is enough room to move,<BR>
>which there usually is unless there are lots of people in the corridor next<BR>
>to him.<BR>
<BR>
	This seems counter-intuitive.  I have no training in such skills, but<BR>
	poking my head out with an autopistol and one hand seems to be quicker<BR>
	than moving much of my body out with a heavier and longer autorifle.<BR>
	It is my impression that short, light weapons are favoured in "block-<BR>
	busting" and room-to-room combat (along with grenades).  Is this not<BR>
	so?  What are the pros and cons to such weapons in these situations?<BR>
<BR>
>I'd penalise someone carryng a Barret .50 or Boys AT or similar, but then<BR>
>you'd be siilly to use one of those on the move.<BR>
<BR>
	By "silly" you mean "a player-character," don't you?  :)<BR>
<BR>
>Penalties should really only apply when in hand to hand combat, and then<BR>
>only in certain situations.<BR>
<BR>
	I apply penalties on a case-by-case basis, but I let my players know<BR>
	that I will consider how much room there is for some weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:38:34 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Historical Tech Levels<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
>Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote<BR>
>>I thought the double size was TL 13-14, treble at TL 11-12.<BR>
>><mumble> but I don't have any books handy </mumble><BR>
<BR>
	Sorry, but that wasn't me.<BR>
<BR>
>The obvious answer is to buy another set, MT rules sets<BR>
>seem to run about $ 20 US here in the US.<BR>
<BR>
	<holding up cross to ward off evil> TEMPT ME NOT, EVIL ONE!<BR>
	I AM A TRUE BELEIVER IN THE ONE TRUE TRAVELLER!<BR>
	;)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:00:48 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: Re: AAB Logo<BR>
<BR>
And it is?<BR>
<BR>
"All the knowledge in the universe - and it's all ours!"<BR>
(and just to prove it, well patent and trademark it to the hilt!)<BR>
<BR>
On 21 Jun 2000, at 11:17, Kagehira@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Not that I know of (I was looking for one though....). Someone on the<BR>
> travcult list did come up with something of a motto though....<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:05:03 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: $CPAN->{Games::Traveller}<BR>
<BR>
Moin Gurus,<BR>
<BR>
  well - my Traveller Perl Module is not yet on CPAN, but impatient<BR>
  travellers may download it from http://traveller.copyleft.de/pub<BR>
  or ftp://ftp.copyleft.de/pub/project/traveller.<BR>
<BR>
  I've started with porting my shipyard from gawk processing text/plain<BR>
  to perl processing text/xml. Currently (Games-Traveller-0.02.tar.gz)<BR>
  only weapon systems (Laser, Particle Accellerator, Meson Gun) are<BR>
  implemented. Next will be hull, thrusters and jump drive.<BR>
<BR>
  The Games::Traveller::Shipyard should finaly be able to process two<BR>
  kind of documents. 'pricat' for price catalogue and 'prodat' for<BR>
  product data informations. Similarities to United Nations EDIFACT<BR>
  messages sharing the same name, should not mean, that I implement<BR>
  UN/Edifact for this game. But referencing UN would be a nice handwaving<BR>
  in games dated back to the 2nd imperium ;-)<BR>
<BR>
  When I finished the shipyard, I'll pick up on survey and trade routing.<BR>
  Last will be the online part, based on LWP & IRC, implementing BL+Trade<BR>
  for a permanent online game.<BR>
<BR>
  Project scedule is that a 0.10 version should reach CPAN.ORG next month.<BR>
<BR>
  A month later Games::Traveller will become a part of the new unstable<BR>
  track of Debian/Linux called 'Woody'. Woody will become stable within<BR>
  one or two years, depending on the need to replace Potato that is<BR>
  currently frozen to become stable by a newer bundle of Linux software.<BR>
<BR>
  If anything went fine Games::Traveller will become distributed some<BR>
  million times together with Debian CDROMs and download. So the 1.0<BR>
  version should exist in about a year - making Games::Traveller one<BR>
  of the best games distributed by Debian.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 22:55:09 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
Moin Leonard Erickson,<BR>
<BR>
> Odd, given that a group can far more easily "afford" to lose men than<BR>
> it can to lose women of childbearing age, or younger girls. Women just<BR>
> aren't as "expendable" as men until you get fairly high tech.<BR>
<BR>
  wrong ;-(<BR>
<BR>
  human history has seen femicide in many cultures.<BR>
  Many cultures had been gone through several stages.<BR>
<BR>
  - primitive matriachat 				<BR>
    the country can feed more people, than living.<BR>
    woman act as collector, man as hunter and warrior<BR>
    women have a higher value than man, because they are getting babys.<BR>
<BR>
  - civilised matriachat + warriors + squaws		.e.g. Irokese<BR>
    the country can feed the people by agriculture<BR>
    woman own houses and farms, man are only warriors<BR>
    woman of the own tribe have the highest value<BR>
    next are man who had been success and rich warriors<BR>
    last are squaws robbed from other tribes<BR>
<BR>
  - patriachat						.e.g. Gilagamesh<BR>
    the country can not feed everybody by agriculture<BR>
    warriors robbing woman, food and luxeries have the highes value<BR>
    next are man owning land or animals<BR>
    next are working man<BR>
    next are male children, who may become warriors<BR>
    next are woman, who may get male children<BR>
    last are female children, they only eat - femicid !<BR>
<BR>
  - industrialisation					.e.g. WWI<BR>
    the country can feed the people by agriculture<BR>
    man have a higher value than woman<BR>
    woman are only allowed to work in war times<BR>
    femicid is discurraged, but still common tradition "sudden child death"<BR>
    <BR>
  - informalisation					.e.g. now<BR>
    the country can feed the people by agriculture<BR>
    the country can produce more products than necessary<BR>
    education and the availability of medical birthcontrol<BR>
    cause man and woman to become equal<BR>
<BR>
  Back to the Vilani Woman - I think that Vland had its femicid patriachat<BR>
  as any human society had. But Vland had been TL:9 for quite a long time.<BR>
  So patriachat, femicid and rape on Vland are history, unlike current earth,<BR>
  where its still common in many 3rd world countries.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.12'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:14:09 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin writes:<BR>
> A question for the mathematically inclined:  What is a good approximation<BR>
> of ship cross-section?<BR>
<BR>
Surface area/4.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:16:38 EDT<BR>
From: CardSharks@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reprints 1<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/20/00 9:29:17 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< <BR>
 >I sure wish these were available via Warehouse 23.  I have never been<BR>
 >able to figure out Marc's web site...<BR>
 <BR>
  >><BR>
What can't you figure out? Send a check to Far Future, or sign up with Paypal.<BR>
<BR>
Marc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:16:40 EDT<BR>
From: CardSharks@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reprints 2<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/20/00 10:14:51 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
trentfs@ix.netcom.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<<     Looking at the list of upcoming reprints I saw no mention of the Games<BR>
 (Mayday thru Striker); one I was certain to buy.  Please don't tell me this<BR>
 book has been scrapped.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
It seems to me the Paragraph titled More Volumes lists six more titles in the <BR>
series (including Games). Or has it dropped off the web site?<BR>
<BR>
Marc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:40:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reprints 1<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/21/00 9:16 AM, CardSharks@aol.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> I sure wish these were available via Warehouse 23.  I have never been<BR>
>> able to figure out Marc's web site...<BR>
> <BR>
>>> <BR>
> What can't you figure out? Send a check to Far Future, or sign up with Paypal.<BR>
> <BR>
> Marc<BR>
<BR>
I think he's talking about navigating, although your links given were to the<BR>
right page. Does your site have an index of pages?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed Jun 21 12:49:39 2000<BR>
From: CPoppcap@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reprints 1<BR>
<BR>
I have no problem with Marcs' site.<BR>
Hey Marc nother check on the way from and can I pre-order the reprints or no????<BR>
<BR>
 Chuck Popp<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:52:52 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Historical tech levels<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>The exchange rate gimmick is not available in MT. <BR>
<BR>
I would say that there are no explicit rules for exchange rates in MT, which<BR>
to me is an entirely different thing[*]. Sticking to the rules, all the rules,<BR>
and nothing but the rules is IMO the mark of a truly bad referee. I once<BR>
played in a CT campaign run by such a ref. If it wasn't in the rules he'd<BR>
allow common sense and real world examples to influence him, but if it was<BR>
in the rules it was so, with no ifs or buts. I still remember selling 69<BR>
computers acquired at 30% of base price for 300% of base price on a planet<BR>
with a population level of 4, then using the next couple of sessions to<BR>
parlay our wealth up to 4 billion credits using the trade rules By The Book.<BR>
<BR>
Somewhat later in that campaign we were more or less running a small country<BR>
on a TL 4 world and slowly introducing TL 5 technology to it (Or was it TL 5/<BR>
TL 6?). Our enemies were limited to single shot rifles, because they were <BR>
explicitly mentioned on the TL progression chart while we were allowed<BR>
Spitfires because they were built before 1939. <BR>
<BR>
Then there were all the mercenaries we recruited from offworld using the<BR>
recruitment rules from _Mercenary_ and a small character generation program<BR>
on a Sinclair. When you randomly generate a thousand _Book 2_ and _Mercenary_<BR>
characters, you get some pretty impressive individuals. I remember we got an<BR>
ex-general with tactics-6, for example. Most of the characters were less<BR>
impressive, of course, but it's amazing how fast you can improve your men<BR>
if you organize classes and use the instructions rules in _Mercenary_.<BR>
<BR>
[*] Not to mention that IMO MT builds on CT. If it's in CT and isn't<BR>
    specifically contradicted by an MT rule, then I consider it an MT<BR>
    rule too. YM obviously V.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"...all at once I UNDERSTOOD just WHY it is that men FIGHT each other.<BR>
I suddenly saw the ANSWER to all this SENSELESS VIOLENCE that afflicts us!<BR>
<BR>
But, like, I didn't write it down or anything and, like, y'know how it is -<BR>
next morning I had totally forgotten what it WAS, man."<BR>
<BR>
			"DR and Quinch get drafted" from _2000 AD_<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:36:45 EDT<BR>
From: CardSharks@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reprints 1<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/21/00 11:44:51 AM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
xrp@sierratel.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< <BR>
 I think he's talking about navigating, although your links given were to the<BR>
 right page. Does your site have an index of pages?<BR>
 <BR>
  >><BR>
There's a row of dice; I think #2 leads to a site index.<BR>
<BR>
Marc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:45:23 -0400<BR>
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reprints 2<BR>
<BR>
CardSharks@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> It seems to me the Paragraph titled More Volumes lists six more titles in the <BR>
> series (including Games). Or has it dropped off the web site?<BR>
><BR>
> Marc<BR>
<BR>
I saw the list of More Volumes and would've sworn that Games wasn't included (which is why I wrote).  However, whether it was there or not doesn't really matter as long as I know it hasn't been scrapped.<BR>
<BR>
Trent<BR>
<BR>
P.S.  Another question:  Are there plans to re-print "The Traveller Adventure" (perhaps as part of Modules)?  I already have my copy; I'm just looking out for everyone else who deserves to own the (IMO) Mother of all Traveller scenarios.<BR>
<BR>
Trivia: Was "The Traveller Adventure" the first one-volume (i.e., not counting the AD&D "Giants" series) epic-length (120+ pp) rpg adventure, or does that record go, perhaps, to "Griffin Mountain" (Chaosium/Runequest)? <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:50:06 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: John P. Raynor [mailto:john.raynor@yale.edu]<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 2:34 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
> > A question for the mathematically inclined:  What is a good <BR>
> approximation<BR>
> > of ship cross-section?  It'll be based on configuration, of <BR>
> course: For a<BR>
> > cube, the minimum xs is volume^.66. But what is the "average" cross<BR>
> > section for a cube?  What about 2:1:1 box?  A sphere is <BR>
> easy...but what<BR>
> > about other shapes? <BR>
> <BR>
> But how useful would "average" cross-sections be?  A <BR>
> needle-shaped ship,<BR>
> for instance, would surely keep either its narrow bow or <BR>
> stern towards its<BR>
> opponents, whenever possible.<BR>
<BR>
Which restricts it's evasive manoeuvers rendering it easier to hit...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:57:46 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
<BR>
>Given that most of the characters in the movie who were<BR>
>killed were not replaced this might not be the best simulation<BR>
>of the movie. I just watched it for the first time myself.<BR>
<BR>
No, I wasn't saying that "Red Dawn" was a great example of a scenario in<BR>
which dead characters were replaced, just that the characters start out as<BR>
ill-formed and end up with a highly specialized set of skills. A system<BR>
which was built in such a fashion would be a good way to create quick<BR>
characters, which would get fleshed out during play.<BR>
<BR>
>If the player is not sufficiently amused by watching he can<BR>
>always leave. Presumably the player did not want his character<BR>
>to die but if the charecter had zero risk of dying it might<BR>
>well be a less interesting game.<BR>
<BR>
No, as I stated in the post which Glenn was responding to, the player can't<BR>
always leave. Granted, I'm going by my own experience in various gaming<BR>
groups here in Philadelphia. This may be different in groups you play in, or<BR>
have played in. Some problems I've seen:<BR>
<BR>
Not every player has a car: in such situations, players are frequently<BR>
driven by other players. It may be extremely inconvenient, or impossible, to<BR>
leave without a car.<BR>
<BR>
The location most suited for playing happens to be in an unpleasant or<BR>
dangerous neighborhood: in such situations a character leaving by himself<BR>
may be in physical danger.<BR>
<BR>
The place of play is a player's home, but it's too small for that player to<BR>
go and do something else.<BR>
<BR>
I can think of a few other scenarios, but these are the most common. This<BR>
was at the core of my original response to Glenn.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:59:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: More ADC2 game stuff<BR>
<BR>
I have now posted screen shots from both my Aide de Camp 2 versions of<BR>
Mayday and Fifth Frontier War. If you are interested, check out<BR>
http://www.ksarul.com/traveller/adc2/. The Mayday game is complete and ready<BR>
for playing. The FFW game is only lacking ground force counters, but has<BR>
everything else. The FFW gameset should be finished and ready for use by the<BR>
end of July.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:02:54 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reprints<BR>
<BR>
Trent Smith said:<BR>
<BR>
>    Looking at the list of upcoming reprints I saw no<BR>
>mention of the <BR>
>Games<BR>
>(Mayday thru Striker); one I was certain to buy. <BR>
>Please don't tell me <BR>
>this<BR>
>book has been scrapped.<BR>
<BR>
I think they're just listing the next few Reprints.<BR>
<BR>
If you notice, the descriptions include the colour of<BR>
the line on the front. They go red for the Books,<BR>
Orange for the Supplements, then yellow, then green...<BR>
all good physicists and Paranoia players know that<BR>
this is the order the colours go in the spectrum!<BR>
Don't worry, there's more to come I'm sure.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV said:<BR>
<BR>
>I sure wish these were available via Warehouse 23.  I<BR>
>have never<BR>
>been able to figure out Marc's web site...<BR>
<BR>
I think you have to register at www.paypal.com first<BR>
(but you have to live in the US... no fair! :-().<BR>
<BR>
But why bother? Your local game shop ought to stock<BR>
them. If they don't, you ought to be able to order<BR>
them through the shop. (I got my copy of the Books<BR>
from my local game shop, and I live on the other side<BR>
of the Atlantic. I'm sure your local game shop ought<BR>
to have a copy or two.)<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:13:17 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
"Charles Collin" <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>, Tuesday, June 20, 2000 8:14 PM<BR>
<BR>
>  We've been over this before, but in light of the recent Fighter debates, I<BR>
>  thought I'd trot this formula out:<BR>
[snip<BR>
><BR>
>  Some interesting results:<BR>
><BR>
>  V              R            g           s         Notes<BR>
><BR>
>  140            .5 ls        6         100.7       10 ton Fighter<BR>
><BR>
>  1400           .5 ls        2           2.4       100 ton Scout<BR>
><BR>
>  14 000 000     .5 ls        4           0.02      1 Mton Battlecarrier<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
>  Now, because people will likely ignore this unless I say something<BR>
>  inflamatory, let me speak thusly:  Fighters are IMPOSSIBLE to hit!  You<BR>
>  could NEVER hit them!  Battleships are SITTING DUCKS!  No wonder there are<BR>
>  fighters in the OTU, they RULE! :-)<BR>
<BR>
You have assumed the same range.  A large ship has better<BR>
sensors and pickets of (ironically, fighters).  It also<BR>
has weapons with longer ranges.  Lastly, they are much<BR>
better armored (smaller surface to volume ratio).<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:14:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
Well, the equation is not that difficult:  D = 1/2 a t^2.  So, using your<BR>
figures we get<BR>
D = 1/2 (58.8) (2,200,000)^2<BR>
D = 1.4e+14 meters (that's 470,000 light seconds or 5 and a half light-days)<BR>
(rounding to one decimal place)<BR>
In other words, start your attack run waaaay out in the Oort cloud.<BR>
<BR>
Rod Basler - COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Dno't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Fractional c combat<BR>
><BR>
>Hmmm<BR>
><BR>
>Let's think this one thru:<BR>
><BR>
>Say we are sitting in a Rampart (6g acceleration). I want to acclerate to<BR>
.5<BR>
>c and scare the beans out of some poor Zho cruser and blow him up by<BR>
>dropping a few thousand lead sinkers from my last fishing trip in his<BR>
>vector.<BR>
><BR>
>6 g's = 9.8m/s/s * 6 = 58m/s/s vector change.<BR>
><BR>
>.5c is a vector of 150,000,000 m/s<BR>
><BR>
>I am going to need to accelerate for 2.2 million seconds, or 43,000 minites<BR>
>or 718 hours or 29.9 DAYS to reach that vector.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2634<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2635</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 21 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2635<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
Re: Snub Pistol Gas Rounds<BR>
RE: Role playing <BR>
re:  AAB Logo<BR>
RE: Role playing <BR>
RE: Fractional c combat<BR>
Re: AAB Logo<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: maps for Zhodani sectors<BR>
OT Re: Font info<BR>
Re: Vilani Language Font (The Vilani Language)<BR>
Re: Terminus is out !<BR>
Stun Rays! Cool.<BR>
RE: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Ship cross sections<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
Design In Play (was RE: Role playing )<BR>
Re: Traveller Reprints 1<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:23:18 -0600<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, the equation is not that difficult:  D = 1/2 a t^2.  So, using your<BR>
> figures we get<BR>
> D = 1/2 (58.8) (2,200,000)^2<BR>
> D = 1.4e+14 meters (that's 470,000 light seconds or 5 and a half light-days)<BR>
> (rounding to one decimal place)<BR>
> In other words, start your attack run waaaay out in the Oort cloud.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Well, it's not that simple. According to relativity, your mass increases as<BR>
your speed approaches the speed of light. I don't remember the exact<BR>
formula, but the denominator has (c-v) in it (which is why you can't travel<BR>
at the speed of light -- your mass becomes undefined).<BR>
<BR>
So the Newtonian physics you mention don't provide a complete picture,<BR>
because the acceleration figure starts to drop off as the mass increases,<BR>
because your drives are pushing a heavier and heavier object.<BR>
<BR>
At "normal" speeds, nowhere close to c, this isn't an issue. But at 0.5c,<BR>
it certainly is. <BR>
<BR>
If anyone's interested, I can dig up the formula.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Erwin Fritz<BR>
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.<BR>
http://www.glja.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:42:36 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Snub Pistol Gas Rounds<BR>
<BR>
>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
<BR>
>In CT, Broadsword is 4d and Snub Pistol with HE or HEAP is<BR>
<BR>
>4d, right?  Is the broadsword's advantage range oriented?<BR>
<BR>
I think that may be true in Snapshot as well.  The<BR>
advantage of the broadsword in that particular scenario was<BR>
that my character had a broadsword, a good DM to hit (like<BR>
+4), and enough action points.  <BR>
<BR>
On hit DMs: It seems that if you have high dexterity or<BR>
high strength, you should choose a weapon that gives you<BR>
the largest +DM to hit.  Once you hit, you almost<BR>
invariably take the other guy out.  <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, if you have very low dexterity or<BR>
strength, you should probably choose a shotgun to avoid<BR>
- -DMs, unless you have a lot of skill in one weapon so that<BR>
it will negate or offset some of the dexterity -DM.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:50:58 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Role playing <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
>[2] I don't know why I like responding to Glenn's posts<BR>
>with Hamlet references. Hell, I don't even know why I'm <BR>
>thinking of the Bard at all lately. (sigh)<BR>
<BR>
Mayhap there is some madness in your method.<BR>
<BR>
I like this general subject area as well.  How do other<BR>
people handle out-of-game issues?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:55:58 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  AAB Logo<BR>
<BR>
>From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
<BR>
>Along the same lines, has anyone ever come across an<BR>
>official AAB logo?<BR>
<BR>
The History of the Imperium Working Group (HIWG) had a<BR>
newsletter called AAB Proceedings, and I think it had a<BR>
logo.  I should be able to find a copy pretty easily in my<BR>
stuff.  If you send me your address, I'll be happy to mail<BR>
you a copy (or fax if you'd prefer).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:05:57 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Role playing <BR>
<BR>
"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> The place of play is a player's home, but it's too small for that player to<BR>
> go and do something else.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, as was amply demonstrated by a friend when I used to play Call<BR>
of Cuthulu in high school... death is quick and lurking (literally)<BR>
around every corner in CoC. The ref in this situation felt that he <BR>
just _couldn't_ spare the character of the guy whose house it was. It<BR>
would have been too much of an easy out for a non-in-game-related<BR>
reason.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, my friend played tuba in the high school band and<BR>
figured he could kill some time by getting in some practice until<BR>
the replacement PC could show up. Ugh.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                         egh@klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:14:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm...<BR>
<BR>
Ok, so we are going to jump now -<BR>
<BR>
problem #1 - Jump is not an exact science in OTU. You cannot predict exactly<BR>
where you will emerge from it - you have a pretty good idea.<BR>
<BR>
Problem #2 - You are going so bloody fast that if the tigress moves a few<BR>
light seconds out of your path you are not going to be able to change your<BR>
vector to intercept.<BR>
<BR>
Problem #2.5 - Combine #1 and #2 - you drop out of jump 10 LS coreward of<BR>
your target. Woops - you just missed.<BR>
<BR>
Problem #3 - what if the tigress just sits in the 100d zone - heck what<BR>
about orbiting the planet? you cannot turn at .5c - lil scout ship screams<BR>
past tigress guns^h^h^h^h gun ablazing and then, in about a blink of an eye,<BR>
smack - no planet. But - hey, the tigress will be destroyed  by chunks of<BR>
the planet that you just hit like a SAPHE round.<BR>
<BR>
Problem #4 - when you jump in system with a .5c delta v - how are you going<BR>
to know where the target is? Your tactical intelligence is at least a week<BR>
(if not more) old. A tigress (even a non-C one) can move quite a bit in two<BR>
weeks (one week to gain tactical intelligence, one week for you to jump in<BR>
system).<BR>
<BR>
Problem #5 - On your second pass, I would really like to see the predict<BR>
program that will be able to tell you where a target will be in a week -<BR>
after all - once you hit the button for that thar jump drive, it's wait and<BR>
see time.<BR>
<BR>
Problem #6 - Easy defense. Seed the jump points with hundreds of thousands<BR>
of 1 gram BB's (lead should work fine - and they will double as sinkers for<BR>
you fishermen). Each BB that smacked into your scout ship would do:<BR>
1/2*M*v^2 or, 1/2* 1 grams * 150000000 meters per second ^2 or about<BR>
11,250,000,000 Mega joules of damage, or about a pen of 14,000,000 in FFS.<BR>
Or, set up mass drivers on the tigress that can accelerate a 250cm shotgun<BR>
shell of BB's to .1 C - which gives a closing rate of .6c - and remember<BR>
#2 - you cannot turn.<BR>
<BR>
It seems that there are some insurmountable problems with OTU technology and<BR>
.5c attack runs...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Peter Newman<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 7:18 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >> Nope, there's *no* advantage whatsoever. Because if you maintain a<BR>
> >> constant velocity, you can be hit dead center by a laser or PAW at<BR>
> >> *any* range.<BR>
> >> And as I showed above, the distance you can evade by depends on range,<BR>
> >> and on your acceleration, *nothing* else.<BR>
<BR>
> > Yes but if you are traveling faster you will be within range<BR>
> > for a shorter period of time. it would seem to be preferable<BR>
> > to be in the enemies firing range for less time<BR>
<BR>
> The disadvantage to really high relative velocities is that if you are<BR>
> moving really, really fast, it takes a longer time to change your<BR>
> course by a given angle. Thus, they can be more certain that you'll<BR>
> pass through a given region of space. Which means they can scatter<BR>
> *dust* in it, and watch the dust, too fine for sensors to pick up, tear<BR>
> your ship apart.<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking more of a ship jumping in with a relatively<BR>
high velocity firing at its target and jumping out rather<BR>
than making another normal space pass.<BR>
<BR>
> Hell, *natural* dust will chew the hell out of you at that speed. Think<BR>
> of a bird strike out a jet, only *trillions* of times worse.<BR>
<BR>
Yes it sure will if it hits you. The question is if your ship<BR>
can do more damage than it receives. Therefore if your ship<BR>
is able to damage or destroy bigger more expensive ships its<BR>
own loss is less important.<BR>
<BR>
Given that larger weapons often have longer ranges a larger ship<BR>
may be able to make smaller ships stand off. If the smaller<BR>
ship wants to get inside the effective range of the other ship<BR>
it may need to be moving at high speed. If probability of being<BR>
hit per minute is x than probability of not being hit is (1 - x).<BR>
If you are in range for 100 minutes the probability of not being<BR>
hit is (1 - x)^ 100. If you are in range for one minute your<BR>
probability of not being hit is (1 - x).<BR>
<BR>
> > For example if your enemy's weapons have a ten light second<BR>
> > maximum range and you are moving at 0.5 C (relative to them)<BR>
> > than you will be in range for no more than 40 seconds [1]. If<BR>
> > you are stationary (relative to them) than you will be in range<BR>
> > forever.<BR>
<BR>
> If you are moving .5 c, you'll get to shoot at them for 40 seconds<BR>
> about once a *month*.<BR>
<BR>
Velocity is maintained in jump. It would be more effective to<BR>
micro jump out, appear a few million klicks away a week later a<BR>
nd make another pass. Thus you could make a pass every week (as<BR>
long as your fuel holds up). Admittedly once a week is not often<BR>
but its better than once a month.<BR>
<BR>
> Work out how long it'll take to decelerate to a<BR>
> stop, and then allow an equal time to accelerate back for another pass.<BR>
> Then figure out how *far* you'll travel during the deceleration.<BR>
<BR>
Not if you jump.<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking more of attacking a ship that is blockading a<BR>
planet of yours hoping to destroy the ship and break the blockade.<BR>
If the blockading ship has longer range weaopons than your ship<BR>
doews than you may need to accept a tactic that will get you inside<BR>
its range whatever other shortcomings it may have. I am not<BR>
suggesting that this would be a common or usually effective<BR>
techniquie I am simply suggesting that it might occasionally<BR>
be useful.<BR>
<BR>
If a Tigress Costs MCr 362,721 and a crew of 4,054 and a Scout<BR>
ship costs MCr 29.43 and has a crew of one (CT Sup 9) than you<BR>
may well be better off loosing 1,000 Scout ships destroying that<BR>
Tigress and breaking the siege. Given that you will need a fair<BR>
ammount of time to boost these ships to near C velocities you<BR>
will need some lag time to get the program started. Once<BR>
you get your kamikazee scout ship program going you may be<BR>
able to have a 0.5 C Scout ship possing out of jump near<BR>
the Tigress every hour or so and trying to destroy it.<BR>
<BR>
Of course if you have a thousand Scout ships and you can get<BR>
them to all jump in simultaneously you might be able to<BR>
simply attack and destroy the Tigeress using conventional<BR>
methods but my perception would be that the Tigress's weapons<BR>
would so far outrange the Scout ships that they would have an<BR>
exceedingly high chance per minute of destroying the Scout<BR>
ship. A speed of 0.5 C might alter this equation.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:37:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: AAB Logo<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/21/00 11:55 AM, gmgoffin@yahoo.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
> <BR>
>> Along the same lines, has anyone ever come across an<BR>
>> official AAB logo?<BR>
> <BR>
> The History of the Imperium Working Group (HIWG) had a<BR>
> newsletter called AAB Proceedings, and I think it had a<BR>
> logo.  I should be able to find a copy pretty easily in my<BR>
> stuff.  If you send me your address, I'll be happy to mail<BR>
> you a copy (or fax if you'd prefer).<BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Me too! ;) Gimme gimme gimme!<BR>
<BR>
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
"Reality is an open ended event with no beginning and no end."<BR>
BZAT: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/index.html<BR>
Lanth6: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Lanth6/Main.html<BR>
E-mail: xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:43:44 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Replies to several people on this thread.<BR>
<BR>
<PLST><BR>
The problem with this is that an intersection  of  the  beam  and<BR>
target does not automatically mean the  target  is  damaged  (and<BR>
this is what we are really interested in).  To do damage the beam<BR>
must deliver a minimum  amount  of  energy  to  a  point  on  the<BR>
target's surface.  If the target passes through the beam  quickly<BR>
enough all you will do is heat up part of the hull slightly.  (If<BR>
this were not so then the amount of damage inflicted  could  vary<BR>
depending on the path of the  target  ...  a  curved  path  could<BR>
result in multiple intersections and therefore multiple hits from<BR>
a single 'shot'.)<BR>
</PLST><BR>
<BR>
This idea of a laser tracking a target seems unlikely to me, much less<BR>
tracking a particular point on a target. With the difficulty of predicting<BR>
vector at the ranges being used, I just can't see it.  YMMV, but my view<BR>
is of lasers sending out brief pulses of energy (say .05 s = 15000 km<BR>
long).  I'm not certain, but I think canon supports this.  Certainly, the<BR>
lasers emitted by missiles will be brief in duration at least.  This<BR>
sort of "shotgun" of laser beams was what I was picturing.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<Anthony Jackson><BR>
> A question for the mathematically inclined:  What is a good<BR>
> approximation<BR>
> of ship cross-section?<BR>
<BR>
Surface area/4.<BR>
</AJ><BR>
<BR>
Well, that's easy!  Thanks.  Not to complain, but you have a habit of<BR>
dropping in useful figures and formulas without giving us non-math types<BR>
an explanation as to their derivation.  Mind you, I understand that<BR>
not everybody has that much time to spend educating others for free. :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<David Summers><BR>
You have assumed the same range.  A large ship has better<BR>
sensors and pickets of (ironically, fighters).  It also<BR>
has weapons with longer ranges.  Lastly, they are much<BR>
better armored (smaller surface to volume ratio).<BR>
</DS><BR>
<BR>
Yup, good points.  I still think the difficulty to hit fighters (and<BR>
conversely the relative ease of hitting large ships) is underestimated in<BR>
the combat systems.  In HG, they get a -2 to be hit, vs. a +2 to hit big<BR>
ships.  Not nearly enough, IMO.  Also, weapons with better ranges won't be<BR>
all that useful since there's no way to defeat light-lag.  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<Matt><BR>
> But how useful would "average" cross-sections be?  A<BR>
> needle-shaped ship,<BR>
> for instance, would surely keep either its narrow bow or<BR>
> stern towards its<BR>
> opponents, whenever possible.<BR>
<BR>
Which restricts it's evasive manoeuvers rendering it easier to hit...<BR>
</Matt><BR>
<BR>
One of the (many and broad) assumptions of the model was that the target<BR>
was evading in all directions with equal likelyhood.  This means that<BR>
you're going to see all views of the ship with equal frequency as well.<BR>
I agree with Matt that if the needle ship tried to present minimum aspect,<BR>
it would be more predictable, although this becomes a guessing game<BR>
between the two captains on a moment-by-moment basis.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Gee, I knew putting some flame-bait among the formulae would generate<BR>
interest! :-)  It hasn't actually generated any flames, though, that's<BR>
good.<BR>
<BR>
Have a good one,<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
"The Imperium is the Light!" (w/ apologies to Russell Crowe)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:09:45 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: maps for Zhodani sectors<BR>
<BR>
GypsyComet@aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Aside from frequent repeating on the Web and other places, they are not <BR>
> official. If someone HAS made them official, they really should tell me, <BR>
> since I did a LOT of the world naming for Zhdant, and Tienspevnekr is <BR>
> entirely mine...<BR>
>   I have the sector listing for Tienspevnekr (and probably Zhdant) on a<BR>
>   disk  <BR>
> around here somewhere, as well as a preliminary listing for all of Usingou <BR>
> (with dotmap pulled from Cogs & Dogs; OY my eyes!).<BR>
<BR>
Hm...I'd be interested in Usingou.  There's a lot of missing names in Zhdant as well, not to mention a water world with a population of 900 billion.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:31:43 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: OT Re: Font info<BR>
<BR>
At 4:44 -0400 21/6/00, Todd Moody  wrote:<BR>
>I found this site a couple of weeks ago while searching for new fonts, it<BR>
>has a shareware program for making your own fonts and a tutorial.  Hope it<BR>
>helps.<BR>
>http://www.high-logic.com/download.html<BR>
<BR>
Thanks - I've passed the URL on.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:19:41 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Language Font (The Vilani Language)<BR>
<BR>
Has there been any attempt to codify the Vilani language into anything at<BR>
all resembling a language?<BR>
<BR>
For example, has there ever been a lexicon of all the canonical Vilani words<BR>
and names?<BR>
<BR>
I am working under the asumption that most of the Vilani words developed to<BR>
date have been randomly generated or somehow "guestimated".<BR>
<BR>
Where is a good Philiogist when you need one?<BR>
<BR>
- -Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <CardSharks@aol.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 9:43 PM<BR>
Subject: Vilani Language Font<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I spoke with Loren about an article on the Vilani Language font, and he<BR>
says<BR>
> I can write one for JTAS. My intention is to provide a serifed and<BR>
> non-serifed downloadable font through JTAS, and to provide an article that<BR>
> details the specific meanings (numbers, letters, punctuation, etc.)<BR>
><BR>
> Meanwhile, there is a sample of the basic upper and lower case letters in<BR>
a<BR>
> hand-written font at<BR>
><BR>
> http://members.aol.com/Traveller/T505-00.html<BR>
><BR>
> Marc Miller<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:31:04 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Terminus is out !<BR>
<BR>
At 20:04 +0000 21/6/00, Nyrath the nearly wise <nyrath@clark.net> wrote:<BR>
>I was working on something, I cannot really remember what, several months<BR>
>ago.  I had just run a test on two AI ships, it might have been some collision<BR>
>avoidance thing.  Anyway, after the test I stepped out of the office <BR>
>to stretch<BR>
>my legs and think.  When I came back, I powered up my weapons and<BR>
>started shooting one of the AI ships, mostly just for the heck of <BR>
>it.  I started<BR>
>taking damage, from behind.  That's strange, I thought, damage system<BR>
>doesn't work anymore?  No, it turns out that the other ship was attacking<BR>
>me.  What had happened was that while I was out the two AI characters had<BR>
>become friends.  Now one character was defending the other!  Pretty neat,<BR>
>huh?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I seem to recall that something similar to this happened on the <BR>
original version of Aliens vs Predator (on the Atari Jaguar 64). They <BR>
had to dumb down the AI or the Aliens (or the predator) slaughtered <BR>
everything on the ship. A smart player could hole up for a few hours <BR>
and face very little opposition...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:38:57 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Stun Rays! Cool.<BR>
<BR>
Check out the BBC story:<BR>
<BR>
http://news6.thdo.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_342000/342188.stm<BR>
<BR>
It amounts to a low-power "lightning gun" or "electro laser".  Neat!<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:15:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> 	For the record, this thread started up when someone pointed out that<BR>
> 	a broadsword could be very effective on board a ship.  That being<BR>
> 	said, it could be that the LBB rules themselves are to blame.  It<BR>
> 	was easy to roll up a Marine character without any firearm skill,<BR>
> 	but all Marines know how to use a cutlass, the "standard shipboard<BR>
> 	weapon" IIRC.  While Army officers picked up SMG, Marine officers<BR>
> 	got Revolver.  That sounds like a wimpy weapon for a bunch of<BR>
> 	Marines equiped with autorifles and laser carbines.  Then there<BR>
> 	is COTI, with the automatic skill for pirates being brawling rather<BR>
> 	than gun combat.  Don't get me wrong, IMTU the Marines carry nasty<BR>
> 	firearms and energy weapons, but I can see where people get the<BR>
> 	impression about Marines and HTH combat.<BR>
><BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, Marc must have been reading Hornblower or some such.  The weapons<BR>
of the marines in late 18th/early 19th century were cutlasses and boarding<BR>
pikes.  The fact is, though, that these are really very ineffective weapons,<BR>
and were only made more so due to the horrible medical technology of the<BR>
day.  Cutting weapons are generally much less lethal than piercing weapons.<BR>
This is a fact well know to the military scholars of Napoleonic times. Edged<BR>
weapons were valuable in the days of one shot weapons that were unreliable.<BR>
But even by civil war times, the bayonet and sword were one their way out<BR>
(note how few bayonet wounds were reported amongst civil war casualties).<BR>
<BR>
A bayonet is a much more lethal combat weapon, if employed.  However, the<BR>
fact is that HTH weapons are rarely used in combat if ANY ranged weapons is<BR>
available.  Soldiers, despite training and experience, are rarely given to<BR>
close range killing.  The more remote and less 'human' and enemy seems, the<BR>
more likely the soldier is to engage the target.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, IMTU, I give marines bayonet rather than cutlass, more out of a<BR>
sense of tradition than to reflect the realities of technological war.  And<BR>
combat rifle is the default skill (pistol for officers in keeping with<BR>
European traditions).<BR>
<BR>
Should a marine have cutlass skill, it is more likely to represent flashy<BR>
moves used on parade.  A rifle (high-tech or otherwise), or even a pistol is<BR>
significantly easier to use and quite a bit more lethal.<BR>
<BR>
As far as utility aboard ship, give me a short shotgun or smg over a sword<BR>
any day of the week.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:12:05 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Ship cross sections<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:34:08 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
> From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
> Subject: Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
><BR>
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
> > A question for the mathematically inclined:  What is a good<BR>
approximation<BR>
> > of ship cross-section?  It'll be based on configuration, of course: For<BR>
a<BR>
> > cube, the minimum xs is volume^.66. But what is the "average" cross<BR>
> > section for a cube?  What about 2:1:1 box?  A sphere is easy...but what<BR>
> > about other shapes?<BR>
><BR>
> But how useful would "average" cross-sections be?  A needle-shaped ship,<BR>
> for instance, would surely keep either its narrow bow or stern towards its<BR>
> opponents, whenever possible.<BR>
>                                                                - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
Not if you assume directional thrusters. If you do, then staying nose on<BR>
means keeping the same profile against our weapons ... which means our PAWs<BR>
and Lasres hit you every time.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:22:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
> >>I also divide firearms into several categories depending on how much<BR>
> >>initiative will be penalized coming around corners in a  ship: rifles,<BR>
> >>carbines, smg's, and pistols.  How do people deal with these<BR>
> >>situations?<BR>
> >I don't see the point. A trained rifleman can go round a corner just as<BR>
> >quickly as someone using a pistol, as long as there is enough<BR>
> room to move,<BR>
> >which there usually is unless there are lots of people in the<BR>
> corridor next<BR>
> >to him.<BR>
><BR>
> 	This seems counter-intuitive.  I have no training in such<BR>
> skills, but<BR>
> 	poking my head out with an autopistol and one hand seems to<BR>
> be quicker<BR>
> 	than moving much of my body out with a heavier and longer autorifle.<BR>
> 	It is my impression that short, light weapons are favoured<BR>
> in "block-<BR>
> 	busting" and room-to-room combat (along with grenades).  Is this not<BR>
> 	so?  What are the pros and cons to such weapons in these situations?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Depends on the rifle.  The tend is to go with shorter, lighter rifles.  An<BR>
you NEVER poke your head around a corner.  That is a basic lesson in MOUT<BR>
(military operations in urban terrain). That is a good way to get your face<BR>
shot off, or get grabbed.<BR>
<BR>
You go around a corner wide, just in case someone is waiting right around<BR>
the corner, and you lead with your rifle (many SWAT team actually mount<BR>
mirrors on their rifle or smg barrels).  And yes, you use grenades, the 'gun<BR>
that shoots around corners', so long as you not worried about friend lies.<BR>
In that case you can use stun grenades.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:55:46 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Design In Play (was RE: Role playing )<BR>
<BR>
On 06/21/00 at 03:59 AM,  "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, when I started composing this message, the classic Patrick<BR>
>Swayze vehicle "Red Dawn" was being shown <BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I saw that was own as I was flipping channels.  I *quickly*<BR>
moved on.  <g>  I've see "Red Dawn" once and once was enough for me. <BR>
<BR>
>and for some reason I paused and thought, "how would I design a<BR>
>system in which Red Dawn could be played".  After thinking a<BR>
>moment, I felt the best way to capture the feel of the film would<BR>
>be to start the game with "ill-formed" characters:  just a<BR>
>collection of random stats.  If it would be possible to "fine-tune"<BR>
>these random stats into a more coherent set of abilities and skills<BR>
>during play, it would capture the flavor of a rag-tag group of high<BR>
>school kids who find their abilities under fire.<BR>
 <BR>
>It occurs to me that such a system, if it could be created, would<BR>
>be extremely handy for replacing dead characters.  A quick set of<BR>
>attributes could be generated, as well as a character "concept" and<BR>
>this concept could be fleshed out during play.  This would require<BR>
>a simple and streamlined "game mechanic" for when the player<BR>
>decides that he should specialize in a given area.  I might have to<BR>
>work on that a bit.<BR>
<BR>
That's my preferred method of running a character anyway, Chris.<BR>
Give me some stats, an archtype, a few skills...ie a character<BR>
concept...and I'll design him during the game.  That makes me a DIP<BR>
(Design In Play) roleplayer as opposed to a DAS (Design at Start)<BR>
player. <BR>
<BR>
I find that while playing, I can find my character's voice, discover<BR>
his personality, skills, background, strengths and weaknesses.<BR>
While I'm playing my character's interaction with the environment<BR>
around him helps me...um...well the best way to say it is that I<BR>
learn how to fit in his skin.<BR>
<BR>
If you tell me we roll, design, or write up a complete character<BR>
before we start, I have *lots* of trouble.  The information on the<BR>
character sheet are just numbers, I don't "feel" them.<BR>
<BR>
One reason I like the Traveller career method is I can *play* it out<BR>
(even if only in my head) and learn about the PC as I do it.  By the<BR>
time I'm done, I *know* that character. <BR>
<BR>
OTOH, if I have to drop a character right into a game, I much prefer<BR>
just naming a profession and/or career and DIPing it from there.<BR>
Give me some X level of skills, I'll note them on my character sheet,<BR>
and as I learn that my character has skills and at what level I'll<BR>
add them to the sheet.  I'll discover what his attributes are<BR>
quickly, smart, dumb, clumsy or dexterous and note them as well. <BR>
<BR>
I also tend to describe Attributes (skills too) descriptively...like<BR>
FUDGE for example.  I might say things like "He has Great Strength,<BR>
but only Average Intelligence.", "Hum, I think he gets tired<BR>
quickly, so I'd say he has Mediocre Endurance."...things like that.<BR>
<BR>
Skills often start that way, but unless you *are* playing FUDGE then<BR>
descriptions end up being translated to numbers..."No, he's got to<BR>
be really good, at Engineering, let's give him a 3 there."...and<BR>
note that these conversations between GM and player can come<BR>
*during* the game as easily as before it.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:19:15 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reprints 1<BR>
<BR>
On 06/21/00 at 12:16 PM,  CardSharks@aol.com said:<BR>
<BR>
>In a message dated 6/20/00 9:29:17 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
>eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
><< <BR>
> >I sure wish these were available via Warehouse 23.  I have never been<BR>
> >able to figure out Marc's web site...<BR>
> <BR>
>  >><BR>
>What can't you figure out? Send a check to Far Future, or sign up with<BR>
>Paypal.<BR>
<BR>
Marc, I've done both.  Sent you a check for vol 1 and through Paypal<BR>
for a second copy of vol 1 and a copy of vol 2. <BR>
<BR>
IAC, it wasn't me that couldn't figure out your site, that was<BR>
someone I was replying to.  What I was wondering was why SJG didn't<BR>
order some so they could sell them through Warehouse 23.  That's<BR>
more a question for SJG than for you.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2635<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2636</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 21 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2636<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Historical Tech Levels<BR>
Re: Vilani Language Font <BR>
Re: Terminus is out !<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2635<BR>
RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
Re: Vilani and other Languages<BR>
RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Vilani Women<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships (fwd)<BR>
Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:28:49 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Historical Tech Levels<BR>
<BR>
> From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> Subject: Re: Historical Tech Levels<BR>
> > To counter this, your TL15 credits buy more ship at TL13 due to the<BR>
> > exchange rates.<BR>
><BR>
> In reality they probably would but given that the MT rules do<BR>
> not make this exchange rate distinction when buying ships this<BR>
> is a moot point.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
If MT rules include Striker, then oh yes they do.<BR>
<BR>
But if they dont, I wont even bother, because common sense, logic, rhetoric,<BR>
history, philospophy, economics and reason have no effect on Peter Newman.<BR>
The damn man is Muse-proof.<BR>
<BR>
> The exchange rate gimmick is not available in MT. Moreover<BR>
> the MT starship construction rules say that only a limited<BR>
> number of systems (one or two) can be built with a different<BR>
> TL than the ships base TL. For example Capitol is TL 15 (in<BR>
> Milieu 1100) but is TL 16 in computers. Therefore you should<BR>
> be able to build a mostly TL 15 ship with TL 16 computers<BR>
> at Capitol if you'd like.<BR>
<BR>
Great. Then we'll have a TL9 hull with a TL15 jump drive and computer. Look,<BR>
Ma, a rules-compliant jump-6 TL9 ship.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:55:26 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Language Font <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Vilani Language Font (The Vilani Language)<BR>
>Has there been any attempt to codify the Vilani language<BR>
>into anything at all resembling a language?For example, <BR>
>has there ever been a lexicon of all the canonical Vilani <BR>
>wordsand names? I am working under the asumption that most<BR>
<BR>
>of the Vilani words developed to date have been randomly <BR>
>generated or somehow "guestimated". Where is a good <BR>
>Philiogist when you need one?- -Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
The Traveller Culture Mailing List started out as the<BR>
Traveller Languages list, and a lot of work on Vilani as a<BR>
real language has been done.  There should be an archive of<BR>
it somewhere, maybe on the Traveller Web Ring.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:19:53 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Terminus is out !<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "SD Mooney" <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 10:31 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Terminus is out !<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 20:04 +0000 21/6/00, Nyrath the nearly wise <nyrath@clark.net> wrote:<BR>
> >I was working on something, I cannot really remember what, several months<BR>
> >ago.  I had just run a test on two AI ships, it might have been some<BR>
collision<BR>
> >avoidance thing.  Anyway, after the test I stepped out of the office<BR>
> >to stretch<BR>
> >my legs and think.  When I came back, I powered up my weapons and<BR>
> >started shooting one of the AI ships, mostly just for the heck of<BR>
> >it.  I started<BR>
> >taking damage, from behind.  That's strange, I thought, damage system<BR>
> >doesn't work anymore?  No, it turns out that the other ship was attacking<BR>
> >me.  What had happened was that while I was out the two AI characters had<BR>
> >become friends.  Now one character was defending the other!  Pretty neat,<BR>
> >huh?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I seem to recall that something similar to this happened on the<BR>
> original version of Aliens vs Predator (on the Atari Jaguar 64). They<BR>
> had to dumb down the AI or the Aliens (or the predator) slaughtered<BR>
> everything on the ship. A smart player could hole up for a few hours<BR>
> and face very little opposition...<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
<BR>
Tut-tut, Dom! You've done it again... <g><BR>
<BR>
Given my background in IT support, I suggest cleaning your mouse <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:34:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2635<BR>
<BR>
>From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
><BR>
>Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> Well, the equation is not that difficult:  D = 1/2 a t^2.  So, using your<BR>
>> figures we get<BR>
>> D = 1/2 (58.8) (2,200,000)^2<BR>
>> D = 1.4e+14 meters (that's 470,000 light seconds or 5 and a half<BR>
light-days)<BR>
>> (rounding to one decimal place)<BR>
>> In other words, start your attack run waaaay out in the Oort cloud.<BR>
>><BR>
>Well, it's not that simple. According to relativity, your mass increases as<BR>
>your speed approaches the speed of light. I don't remember the exact<BR>
>formula, but the denominator has (c-v) in it (which is why you can't travel<BR>
>at the speed of light -- your mass becomes undefined).<BR>
><BR>
>So the Newtonian physics you mention don't provide a complete picture,<BR>
>because the acceleration figure starts to drop off as the mass increases,<BR>
>because your drives are pushing a heavier and heavier object.<BR>
><BR>
>At "normal" speeds, nowhere close to c, this isn't an issue. But at 0.5c,<BR>
>it certainly is.<BR>
<BR>
Mea Culpa - However, there are two considerations -<BR>
1.) At 0.5c, the tau factor is still relatively low, so I doubt there would<BR>
be a great deal of difference between the Newtonian and the Relativistic<BR>
values; it is almost certainly within the same order of magnitude.<BR>
2.) This is going to open up an entirely new can of proverbial worms (good<BR>
bait, those) as the passage of time within the fighter is also going to slow<BR>
down.  From the point of view of the pilot, my numbers are correct (IIRC) -<BR>
while the number of Gs he is pulling decreases due to the increase in mass<BR>
(F=Ma), the amount of time (as perceived from an outside observer) that the<BR>
fighter accelerates increases - the two balance each other out...I<BR>
think...the length of the fighter is also decreasing by the same tau factor<BR>
which would futz up the measurements in ways that are making my head<BR>
hurt...it has been way too long since I last took physics.  Hell, when I was<BR>
taking it, there were still _4_ fundamental forces - the weak bosons hadn't<BR>
been discovered yet.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler - COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:49:02 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:46:59 -0400 (EDT), eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>On 06/19/00 at 05:47 PM,  "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>Eris you are one of the very few on the list thats older than I am. I<BR>
>>defer to your ancientness.......<BR>
<BR>
>You're only as old as you feel! <g><BR>
<BR>
FWEEEEP! 5 yard penalty for misquote!<BR>
<BR>
The correct quote, assuming you want to induce C&C, is<BR>
<BR>
  "You're only as old as who you feel!"<BR>
<BR>
>I'll admit that some days I feel ancient, but normally playing<BR>
>Traveller keeps me feeling like a kid.<BR>
<BR>
s/like //<BR>
<BR>
(FreeTrav has both a filthy mind and a willingness to use it...)<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:49:05 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
[Posted to both TML and TravCult; threads welcome both places.]<BR>
<BR>
Traveller has always struck me as being the game that's most open<BR>
to having societies grafted onto it from Your Favorite<BR>
SF/Fantasy.  That's not to say that _every_ Favorite Society can<BR>
be grafted on to Traveller (muttering "Xanth" as he holds a cross<BR>
or other religious symbol/amulet out at arms length), but many<BR>
_can_.<BR>
<BR>
Now, ignoring for the moment restrictions that the authors may<BR>
have put into place, What societies would you like to see grafted<BR>
into Traveller, where would you put them, and how would you<BR>
explain their existence in the Travellerverse?  Note that for<BR>
purposes of discussion, we must assume a generally canon-<BR>
compatible Travellerverse (e.g., if the nature of a society is<BR>
fundamentally based on instantaneous interstellar communication<BR>
or stutterwarp travel, it doesn't fit).<BR>
<BR>
My choices:<BR>
<BR>
(1) Tines, from Vernor Vinge's _A_Fire_Upon_The_Deep_.  A<BR>
medieval pack-mind society that could be dropped just about<BR>
anywhere and fit, unchanged. Read the book if you haven't.<BR>
Interesting alternative: instead of ultrasonic communication<BR>
between pack members, use telepathy; what are the ramifications<BR>
if the Imperium discovers this, especially if the telepathy<BR>
doesn't work with non-Tines?  Once the Tines are contacted and<BR>
given access to technology, what sort of accommodations are made<BR>
for their special needs?  What are the ramifications of<BR>
"full-press contact" between one of the Major Races and the Tines<BR>
- - as contrasted with the accidental contact of two children and a<BR>
couple of library computers (and later low-bandwidth<BR>
communication with a very limited group of adults)?<BR>
<BR>
(2) Sime~Gen, by Jacqueline Lichtenberg and Jean Lorrah (8<BR>
novels, professionally) and quite a few good writers as fans<BR>
(fair number of novels and short stories, non-professionally).<BR>
[Kiri was introduced to the TML because of my membership on S~G<BR>
mailing lists.]  In the future, a mutation has caused the<BR>
separation of humanity into two subspecies, Gens, who produce a<BR>
life-energy, and Simes, who must consume it on a regular basis or<BR>
die. Most Ancient (i.e., modern, to us) knowledge has been lost,<BR>
and civilization is mostly in ruins, but struggling to rebuild.<BR>
As written, there is a strong thread of mysticism, but I do not<BR>
believe that this is essential to the story of the society, only<BR>
to those of certain of its members.  An interesting possibility<BR>
for a minor human race.<BR>
<BR>
(3) Pern, from the Dragonriders and Harper Hall series by Anne<BR>
McCaffery.  Essentially medieval, with telepathic creatures<BR>
("dragons"), not entirely devoid of resemblance to pteranodon,<BR>
that can fly and, under certain circumstances, breathe fire.<BR>
Their riders are selected on the basis of innate telepathic<BR>
compatibility with a specific beast.  Also a menace that the<BR>
dragons just happen to be nearly ideal against.  Menace is a bit<BR>
of a stretch, IMO, but the society itself could work well in its<BR>
absence.<BR>
<BR>
Note: when approached with the idea of making their societies<BR>
available to Traveller fans as "portations", all three authors<BR>
responded negatively, citing several quite legitimate concerns.<BR>
Disappointing, but quite understandable.  Much as I would like to<BR>
make my notes on Traveller conversions for all of the above<BR>
available, I will not.  Having said that, however, I will say<BR>
that it is not my place to police others on the authors' behalf.<BR>
Make of that what you will, and remember that I do not speak<BR>
officially for anybody except myself.  And sometimes not even<BR>
that.<BR>
<BR>
(4) Proton, from The Apprentice Adept series, by Piers Anthony.<BR>
The main problem with bringing this society into Traveller is<BR>
that I can't think of a _reason_ for it to exist in a canon-<BR>
compatible Travellerverse.  The incidental connection with Phaze<BR>
is irrelevant, except to the story of the protagonists (for which<BR>
it is critical), and can be disregarded.<BR>
<BR>
(5) The Dushau, from the trilogy of the same name by Jacqueline<BR>
Lichtenberg.  Difficult to reconcile Dushau abilities with psi<BR>
model used in Traveller - but not impossible, I believe.<BR>
Interesting ramifications, depending on where and when.<BR>
<BR>
Note: (5) is probably prohibited, on the same basis as S~G (2)<BR>
above.<BR>
<BR>
That's all I can think of, based on a quick scan of my<BR>
bookshelves; anyone else want to rip into my ideas, expand on<BR>
them, or issue forth with ideas of their own, to be similarly<BR>
expanded or ripped?<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:49:09 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani and other Languages<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:37:31 -0400 (EDT), "James Pearson"<BR>
<james@pearson.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>So, we started generating characters for my AAB campaign last <BR>
>night.  I was going back through old notes and found the <BR>
>Vilani/English list from the TLDL -it's dated 1998.  The website has <BR>
>not changed.  Is the project still in existence?  I tried the mailing <BR>
>list but it bounced.<BR>
<BR>
It is, but not at the old Execnet address, and the web page is no<BR>
longer official.  The current official address is<BR>
Traveller-Culture@egroups.com.  You must subscribe before posting<BR>
or reading; that can be done by sending email to<BR>
Traveller-Culture-subscribe@egroups.com.  We have an archive of<BR>
list postings from the beginning, one of our members is/was<BR>
working on cleaning up the old TravLang archives and making them<BR>
available (I have them in very yukky form if you can stomach it),<BR>
and we have an updated lexicon in Excel format, downloadable from<BR>
the list's shared file area on eGroups.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:20:45 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
On 06/21/00 at 07:49 PM,  Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>>Eris you are one of the very few on the list thats older than I am. I<BR>
>>>defer to your ancientness.......<BR>
<BR>
>>You're only as old as you feel! <g><BR>
<BR>
>FWEEEEP! 5 yard penalty for misquote!<BR>
<BR>
>The correct quote, assuming you want to induce C&C, is<BR>
<BR>
>  "You're only as old as who you feel!"<BR>
<BR>
Ha! Ha! When you get to be my age Jeff, you have to be careful *who* you feel or you'll get Lechery-1 added to your skill list. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:20:51 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
> Yup, good points.  I still think the difficulty to hit fighters (and<BR>
> conversely the relative ease of hitting large ships) is underestimated in<BR>
> the combat systems.  In HG, they get a -2 to be hit, vs. a +2 to hit big<BR>
> ships.  Not nearly enough, IMO.  Also, weapons with better ranges won't be<BR>
> all that useful since there's no way to defeat light-lag. <BR>
<BR>
IMO, light lag keeps engagement ranges limited - thus the ability of ships to<BR>
break off and stay broken off (in the Outer System).  <BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 02:34:04 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Moin Charles Collin,<BR>
<BR>
  you forgot some important points - that make your asumption even more true.<BR>
<BR>
> Time lag to rounds reaching target:<BR>
> T = 2 * R (Range in light-seconds, assuming no processing time)<BR>
<BR>
  The time lag is much longer. This T = 2 * R would mean that the ship<BR>
  has to fire blind using a passive sensor lock. But the 'canon' traveller<BR>
  time lag is T=3*R as you need an active pencil beam pointer lock.<BR>
<BR>
  The second problem is the 'rate of fire' of most traveller weapons.<BR>
<BR>
  Most civilian weapons fire any 3 minutes, most military any 18 seconds.<BR>
  Meson guns are not able to fire more often, and lasers increase in size.<BR>
  Only those 68MJ point defense lasers may fire more often. Tl*50 should<BR>
  be the limit on HPGs to prevent weapons sharing a single HPG round robin.<BR>
<BR>
> Yup, good points.  I still think the difficulty to hit fighters (and<BR>
> conversely the relative ease of hitting large ships) is underestimated in<BR>
> the combat systems.  In HG, they get a -2 to be hit, vs. a +2 to hit big<BR>
> ships.  Not nearly enough, IMO.  Also, weapons with better ranges won't be<BR>
> all that useful since there's no way to defeat light-lag.  <BR>
<BR>
  this -2 vs +2 became a decrease or increase in UTP difficulty.<BR>
  So it distincts between a fighter as being an impossible target<BR>
  (TNE/4) at medium range and a battleship as being an easy target<BR>
  (TNE*4). Translated to T4 this would mean roll a single dice to<BR>
  hit a battleship or roll 5 to hit a fighter.<BR>
<BR>
> One of the (many and broad) assumptions of the model was that the target<BR>
> was evading in all directions with equal likelyhood.  This means that<BR>
> you're going to see all views of the ship with equal frequency as well.<BR>
> I agree with Matt that if the needle ship tried to present minimum aspect,<BR>
> it would be more predictable, although this becomes a guessing game<BR>
> between the two captains on a moment-by-moment basis.<BR>
<BR>
  and on the moment its presenting its needle nose it'll shoot. I think<BR>
  many ships are flat as they present the flat side with pd-lasers when<BR>
  evasing up or down.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:37:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> All of this ingores the real concern of how frigging far do you travel in<BR>
> those 29 days?<BR>
<BR>
Something over 2000 AU. Or about 70 times the distance from the sun to<BR>
Pluto. Or 1% of a parsec.<BR>
<BR>
> I dunno - I leave that to those with a math degree :)<BR>
<BR>
D = .5 * A * T^2<BR>
<BR>
The above, and your original calculation ignore relativity. I *could*<BR>
do the calcs (I finally realized that my favorite calculator *does*<BR>
have hyperbolic functions on it), but I don't really feel like it.<BR>
<BR>
For those who care to try...<BR>
<BR>
	Relativistic rocket equation (constant acceleration)<BR>
<BR>
	    t (unaccelerated) = c/a * sinh(a*t/c)<BR>
	    d = c**2/a * (cosh(a*t/c) - 1)<BR>
	    v = c * tanh(a*t/c)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:09:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Well, the equation is not that difficult:  D = 1/2 a t^2.  So, using your<BR>
>> figures we get<BR>
>> D = 1/2 (58.8) (2,200,000)^2<BR>
>> D = 1.4e+14 meters (that's 470,000 light seconds or 5 and a half <BR>
> light-days)<BR>
>> (rounding to one decimal place)<BR>
>> In other words, start your attack run waaaay out in the Oort cloud.<BR>
>> <BR>
><BR>
> Well, it's not that simple. According to relativity, your mass increases as<BR>
> your speed approaches the speed of light. I don't remember the exact<BR>
> formula, but the denominator has (c-v) in it (which is why you can't travel<BR>
> at the speed of light -- your mass becomes undefined).<BR>
><BR>
> So the Newtonian physics you mention don't provide a complete picture,<BR>
> because the acceleration figure starts to drop off as the mass increases,<BR>
> because your drives are pushing a heavier and heavier object.<BR>
><BR>
> At "normal" speeds, nowhere close to c, this isn't an issue. But at 0.5c,<BR>
> it certainly is. <BR>
<BR>
At .5 c, the gamma is only 15%. Not enough to worry about for this<BR>
degree of precision.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:14:32 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
>> We've been over this before, but in light of the recent <BR>
>> Fighter debates, I thought I'd trot this formula out: <BR>
>> <BR>
>> s=(1206.874*g^2*R^4)/(V^.666666);<BR>
>> <BR>
> <snip rest of interesting post><BR>
><BR>
> I think, if I've  understood  your  post  properly,  that  you've<BR>
> missed something conceptually:<BR>
><BR>
> You are saying you have a target with a relative  cross-sectional<BR>
> area of X, which during the turn could move to  any  point  of  a<BR>
> sphere from its center with a relative cross-sectional area of Y,<BR>
> and so if your laser beam passes through that sphere there  is  a<BR>
> chance of intersecting the target based on  comparing  these  two<BR>
> relative cross-sectional areas.  (My English  teacher's  spinning<BR>
> in her grave at such a run-on sentence.)<BR>
><BR>
> The problem with this is that an intersection  of  the  beam  and<BR>
> target does not automatically mean the  target  is  damaged  (and<BR>
> this is what we are really interested in).  To do damage the beam<BR>
> must deliver a minimum  amount  of  energy  to  a  point  on  the<BR>
> target's surface.  If the target passes through the beam  quickly<BR>
> enough all you will do is heat up part of the hull slightly.  (If<BR>
> this were not so then the amount of damage inflicted  could  vary<BR>
> depending on the path of the  target  ...  a  curved  path  could<BR>
> result in multiple intersections and therefore multiple hits from<BR>
> a single 'shot'.)<BR>
><BR>
> Therefore part of the firing solution has to involve locking  the<BR>
> beam onto a fixed point  on  the  target  and  holding  it  there<BR>
> (tracking the target movement) for  the  turn's  duration.  Given<BR>
> the length of a turn in space combat is 1000 seconds you can  see<BR>
> that the beam tracking issue becomes the dominant factor  and  so<BR>
> the *overall* size of the target becomes somewhat irrelevant.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but it's *you* who are making an incorrect assumption. These are<BR>
*pulse* lasers. The target doesn't move significantly during the<BR>
microsecond duration of the pulse, and heating is anything but gradual.<BR>
<BR>
Weapons lasers don't *melt* holes. They cause the surface layers of the<BR>
target to go directly from solid to highly ionized plasma in a duration<BR>
so short that the energy release is a high order explosive shock. <BR>
<BR>
That's why things like the "just spin the missiles" argument against<BR>
SDI lasers was so stupid. The timescales are just too short for that<BR>
sort of thing.<BR>
<BR>
> With this I agree:  Fighters should  (except  in  CT)  have  much<BR>
> better agility than battleships.  Thus the battleship  must  rely<BR>
> on passive defence  (armour  and  capacity  to  take  damage)  to<BR>
> outlast the harassing fighters.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. They have exactly the *same* agility until you reach a size such<BR>
that it takes *significant* g-forces to spin the ship about it's axis<BR>
to get the main drive pointed in the appropriate direction for whatever<BR>
manuever you are performing.<BR>
<BR>
"Agility" equals "main drive acceleration".<BR>
<BR>
Ability to "dodge" is influenced by both agility and *size*. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:33:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Women<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Moin Leonard Erickson,<BR>
><BR>
>> Odd, given that a group can far more easily "afford" to lose men than<BR>
>> it can to lose women of childbearing age, or younger girls. Women just<BR>
>> aren't as "expendable" as men until you get fairly high tech.<BR>
><BR>
>   wrong ;-(<BR>
<BR>
Nope. Not at all. The fact that they are "less expendable" doesn't mean<BR>
you *can't* expend them. Just that unless you have an overpopulation<BR>
problem, it's a bad idea to expend them if you can easily avoid doing so.<BR>
<BR>
>   human history has seen femicide in many cultures.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, and you'll find that most of those cases were population control<BR>
measures. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:36:38 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships (fwd)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> <Matt><BR>
> The problem is that you are using the volume of the target, rather than<BR>
> its cross-section relative to the attacker... <BR>
> </Matt><BR>
><BR>
> No, actually, I was using the cross-section.  V^.66 is an an approximation<BR>
> of cross-section.  For instance, if you have a 1000 m3 cube, it has side<BR>
> lengths of 10 m and a cross section of about 100 m3.  1000^.66 = 100.<BR>
><BR>
> Note that V^.66 is being somewhat optimistic about the cross-section, as<BR>
> it's really the minimum cross-section for a cube.  A sphere has a slightly<BR>
> larger relative cross-section, something like V^.7, IIRC.  But anyway,<BR>
> that's being applied to all ships in the analysis equally.<BR>
<BR>
       sphere volume: 4 * pi * r^3 / 3<BR>
Sphere cross-section: pi * r^2<BR>
               ratio: 4 * r / 3<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:48:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>>> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>>>> Nope, there's *no* advantage whatsoever. Because if you maintain a<BR>
>>>> constant velocity, you can be hit dead center by a laser or PAW at<BR>
>>>> *any* range.<BR>
>>>> And as I showed above, the distance you can evade by depends on range,<BR>
>>>> and on your acceleration, *nothing* else.<BR>
><BR>
>>> Yes but if you are traveling faster you will be within range<BR>
>>> for a shorter period of time. it would seem to be preferable <BR>
>>> to be in the enemies firing range for less time <BR>
><BR>
>> The disadvantage to really high relative velocities is that if you are<BR>
>> moving really, really fast, it takes a longer time to change your<BR>
>> course by a given angle. Thus, they can be more certain that you'll<BR>
>> pass through a given region of space. Which means they can scatter<BR>
>> *dust* in it, and watch the dust, too fine for sensors to pick up, tear<BR>
>> your ship apart.<BR>
><BR>
> I was thinking more of a ship jumping in with a relatively<BR>
> high velocity firing at its target and jumping out rather<BR>
> than making another normal space pass.<BR>
<BR>
You can't jump in that accurately. Remember, the uncertainty in jump<BR>
exit is *hours*. Ships move a long ways in that much time.<BR>
<BR>
>> Hell, *natural* dust will chew the hell out of you at that speed. Think<BR>
>> of a bird strike out a jet, only *trillions* of times worse.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes it sure will if it hits you. The question is if your ship<BR>
> can do more damage than it receives. Therefore if your ship<BR>
> is able to damage or destroy bigger more expensive ships its<BR>
> own loss is less important.<BR>
<BR>
Natural dust *will* hit you. That's the problem. At .5 c a milligram<BR>
dust mote delivers the energy equivalent of 5 tonnes of TNT (6 once you<BR>
add in the relativity corrections).<BR>
<BR>
Such collisions will be *frequent* if you are within 100 diameters of a<BR>
planet. Hell, collisions with larger objects are possible.<BR>
<BR>
The paint chip that created a quarter inch *crater* in one of the Space<BR>
Shuttle's windows would be equivalent to a hundred or more tonnes of<BR>
TNT. <BR>
<BR>
> Given that larger weapons often have longer ranges a larger ship<BR>
> may be able to make smaller ships stand off. If the smaller<BR>
> ship wants to get inside the effective range of the other ship<BR>
> it may need to be moving at high speed. If probability of being<BR>
> hit per minute is x than probability of not being hit is (1 - x).<BR>
> If you are in range for 100 minutes the probability of not being<BR>
> hit is (1 - x)^ 100. If you are in range for one minute your<BR>
> probability of not being hit is (1 - x).<BR>
<BR>
>>> For example if your enemy's weapons have a ten light second<BR>
>>> maximum range and you are moving at 0.5 C (relative to them)<BR>
>>> than you will be in range for no more than 40 seconds [1]. If<BR>
>>> you are stationary (relative to them) than you will be in range<BR>
>>> forever.<BR>
><BR>
>> If you are moving .5 c, you'll get to shoot at them for 40 seconds<BR>
>> about once a *month*. <BR>
><BR>
> Velocity is maintained in jump. It would be more effective to<BR>
> micro jump out, appear a few million klicks away a week later a<BR>
> nd make another pass. Thus you could make a pass every week (as <BR>
> long as your fuel holds up). Admittedly once a week is not often<BR>
> but its better than once a month.<BR>
<BR>
It still takes you a month to get up to speed, and another month to<BR>
slow down to refuel. And just what do you expect the enemy to be doing<BR>
during that week? Sitting there?<BR>
<BR>
>> Work out how long it'll take to decelerate to a<BR>
>> stop, and then allow an equal time to accelerate back for another pass.<BR>
>> Then figure out how *far* you'll travel during the deceleration. <BR>
><BR>
> Not if you jump.<BR>
><BR>
> I was thinking more of attacking a ship that is blockading a<BR>
> planet of yours hoping to destroy the ship and break the blockade.<BR>
<BR>
And if your fore is off by a facrtion of a degree, you hit the planet<BR>
instead of the ship. That's assuming that you come out near the planet.<BR>
Jump duration is a variable by many hours. And Earth moves about 4<BR>
hexes an hour in its orbit. So you could easily be a dozen hexes away<BR>
when you emerge.<BR>
<BR>
Your velocity won't let you change course soon enough to get closer.<BR>
And what if you have the bad luck to emerge with a course that<BR>
intersects the planet, or even "just" the upper atmosphere?<BR>
<BR>
You'll have *destroyed* your own planet.<BR>
<BR>
Likewise, if something takes out the drives, you can't jump, and<BR>
rescuing you is going to be *very* iffy. It'll take you less than half<BR>
a day to cross from one side of Pluto's orbit to the other. And folks<BR>
won't have a lot of time to determine your course *accurately* enough<BR>
to intercept you.<BR>
<BR>
> If a Tigress Costs MCr 362,721 and a crew of 4,054 and a Scout <BR>
> ship costs MCr 29.43 and has a crew of one (CT Sup 9) than you <BR>
> may well be better off loosing 1,000 Scout ships destroying that<BR>
> Tigress and breaking the siege. Given that you will need a fair<BR>
> ammount of time to boost these ships to near C velocities you<BR>
> will need some lag time to get the program started. Once<BR>
> you get your kamikazee scout ship program going you may be<BR>
> able to have a 0.5 C Scout ship possing out of jump near<BR>
> the Tigress every hour or so and trying to destroy it.<BR>
<BR>
Not possible. You can't time jumps that accurately.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2636<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2637</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 21 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2637<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
Re: Old Feelings<BR>
Re: Old Feelings<BR>
Re: "Portations"<BR>
RE: DragonCon Attendees?<BR>
RE: Vilani Language Font<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
Combine Honnete Orbital Mercentales, GmbH (CHOM)    <Long><BR>
To Loren: I read your footnotes!<BR>
Re: Traveller Reprints 1<BR>
[ct-starships] TDDC News<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:54:19 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> One of my theories is that most PC's are the products of extremely<BR>
> dysfunctional families. I figure that many PC's are the product<BR>
> of physically, emotionally, and/or sexually abusive homes. Given<BR>
> how the hell they grew up in has affected their charecters they<BR>
> tend to react abnormally (i.e. more like PC's and less like<BR>
> people). Many of the players I know never bother to figure<BR>
> out if their charecter has siblings, if their parents live,<BR>
> etc. Given that their charecter never mention their families<BR>
> at all I figure many of them are avoiding their dysfunctional<BR>
> abusive families.<BR>
><BR>
> Disclaimer: I am not implying that all people from dysfunctional<BR>
> families are screwed up nor am I implying that all people from<BR>
> 'normal' homes are OK I am merely suggesting a positive correlation<BR>
> between the two factors.<BR>
<BR>
As someone from a dysfunctional family, I didn't take offense. On the<BR>
other hand, I also am *more* "risk averse" than the average person. It<BR>
can go either way.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:18:36 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Old Feelings<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 21-Jun-00 8:07:45 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>   "You're only as old as who you feel!"<BR>
<BR>
Acting as young as you feel can lead to feeling as old as you are.<BR>
<BR>
Speaking of which, I just got my new TX state ID card (not DL but they use <BR>
the same camera). I look like I'm wanted in seven states! <BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:25:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Old Feelings<BR>
<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com <GDWGAMES@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
>Speaking of which, I just got my new TX state ID card (not DL but they use<BR>
>the same camera). I look like I'm wanted in seven states!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    *weg*  Mostly by that rarest of all gamers, women?<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:23:06 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: "Portations"<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 21-Jun-00 8:07:45 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Note: when approached with the idea of making their societies<BR>
>  available to Traveller fans as "portations", all three authors<BR>
>  responded negatively, citing several quite legitimate concerns.<BR>
<BR>
Not the least of which is, I suspect, the fact that it could interfere with <BR>
other IP licensing if they give stuff away.<BR>
<BR>
I met Ms McCaffery last year in the Green Room at Dragon*Con -- wonderful <BR>
person.<BR>
<BR>
* One of the reasons I like the conventions is they let me in the same VIP <BR>
room with the famous . . . er . . . with other, _more_ famous people.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:46:16 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: DragonCon Attendees?<BR>
<BR>
I was going to try, but it looks like it's going to fall through<BR>
   Financial reasons.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of John Groth<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 6:00 AM<BR>
> To: TML<BR>
> Subject: DragonCon Attendees?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> So, who on this list is planning to attend DragonCon?  Besides Loren,<BR>
> that is.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm considering doing the whole coast-to-coast con attendance thing<BR>
> (BayCon and DragonCon)....<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
> "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
> Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:05:32 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Vilani Language Font<BR>
<BR>
Speaking as someone who USES the existing Vilani font all the time, I can<BR>
officially say "YAAAYYYYY Marc!!!!".  We have any fontographers on the list<BR>
to start playing with it too?  There's a few bajillion English fonts out<BR>
there, but only TWO (now) Vilani fonts.  It'd be nice to see some varation<BR>
out there!<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> CardSharks@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 6:44 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Vilani Language Font<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I spoke with Loren about an article on the Vilani Language font,<BR>
> and he says<BR>
> I can write one for JTAS. My intention is to provide a serifed and<BR>
> non-serifed downloadable font through JTAS, and to provide an<BR>
> article that<BR>
> details the specific meanings (numbers, letters, punctuation, etc.)<BR>
><BR>
> Meanwhile, there is a sample of the basic upper and lower case<BR>
> letters in a<BR>
> hand-written font at<BR>
><BR>
> http://members.aol.com/Traveller/T505-00.html<BR>
><BR>
> Marc Miller<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:20:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Matthew Bond writes:<BR>
>>>>Halberds, pikes, etc. just<BR>
>>>>don't strike me as efficient weapons in tight passageways.<BR>
>>>Pikes are a *thrusting* weapon. And halberds are intended for *short*<BR>
>>>chopping swings as well as thrusting with the spike. You just don't<BR>
>>>*make* wide swings with it. The only problem would be with getting<BR>
>>>around corners.<BR>
>>Agreed. The main point I would like raise is *why* do so many people read<BR>
>>through CT and come away with the impression that it's a game about people<BR>
>>in spaceships, wearing Battledress and wielding medieval polearms! I know<BR>
>>*several* players who just can't seem to get that image out of their heads.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
><BR>
>         For the record, this thread started up when someone pointed out that<BR>
>         a broadsword could be very effective on board a ship.  That being<BR>
>         said, it could be that the LBB rules themselves are to blame.  It<BR>
>         was easy to roll up a Marine character without any firearm skill,<BR>
>         but all Marines know how to use a cutlass, the "standard shipboard<BR>
>         weapon" IIRC.  While Army officers picked up SMG, Marine officers<BR>
>         got Revolver.  That sounds like a wimpy weapon for a bunch of<BR>
>         Marines equiped with autorifles and laser carbines.  Then there<BR>
>         is COTI, with the automatic skill for pirates being brawling rather<BR>
>         than gun combat.  Don't get me wrong, IMTU the Marines carry nasty<BR>
>         firearms and energy weapons, but I can see where people get the<BR>
>         impression about Marines and HTH combat.<BR>
<BR>
We debated this in the old days. The concensus was that besides the<BR>
nasty things a firearm's reciol can do to you in zero-gee, there's also<BR>
the rather important detail that swords don't take out important<BR>
equipment *behind* the target if you miss, nor do they ricochet into<BR>
important gear elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
They also make it possible to "wound" someone in a vaccsuit more<BR>
easily. One slice and he's out of the fight until he can get it<BR>
patched. Bullet holes tend to be easier to seal.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:25:38 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> A question for the mathematically inclined:  What is a good approximation<BR>
> of ship cross-section?  It'll be based on configuration, of course: For a<BR>
> cube, the minimum xs is volume^.66. But what is the "average" cross<BR>
> section for a cube?  What about 2:1:1 box?  A sphere is easy...but what<BR>
> about other shapes? <BR>
<BR>
Since what we are interested in is how they vary as the size is<BR>
changed, the square-cube law does the trick.<BR>
<BR>
If you increase the linear dimensions by X, the cross-sectional area<BR>
(*any* cross section) goes up by X^2, the volume goes up by X^3. So,<BR>
the volume to cross-section varies as the 2/3 power of the volume, just<BR>
as in your formula. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:28:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
>> A question for the mathematically inclined:  What is a good approximation<BR>
>> of ship cross-section?  It'll be based on configuration, of course: For a<BR>
>> cube, the minimum xs is volume^.66. But what is the "average" cross<BR>
>> section for a cube?  What about 2:1:1 box?  A sphere is easy...but what<BR>
>> about other shapes? <BR>
><BR>
> But how useful would "average" cross-sections be?  A needle-shaped ship,<BR>
> for instance, would surely keep either its narrow bow or stern towards its<BR>
> opponents, whenever possible.<BR>
<BR>
In which case it can only run directly towards or away from them. Any<BR>
dodging *requires* that it expose more of itself, and, in fasct, for<BR>
maximum efficiency at dodging, it has to be broadside on to the enemy!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:29:04 -0400<BR>
From: "Jeffrey D. Greenly" <jgreenly@intelos.net><BR>
Subject: Combine Honnete Orbital Mercentales, GmbH (CHOM)    <Long><BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
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<BR>
FW: Rough DraftHi all,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
This is something I tacked together after Rob's request for corporate =<BR>
profiles. To answer a few questions before they come up:<BR>
<BR>
The name is rather similar to the name of the trade federation in Dune. =<BR>
The similarity ends there. In the Dune universe, CHOAM is something =<BR>
entirely different. I wanted a certain feel, so with apologies to Frank, =<BR>
I sorta borrowed the name.<BR>
<BR>
This is written from a "Fortune 500" perspective. That is to say, it is =<BR>
a description that is ten miles wide and one inch deep. This =<BR>
megacorporation has a very dark side; think modern-day Monsanto or Dow, =<BR>
with a sprinkling of ADM for good measure. I picture the representatives =<BR>
of this corp's legal division either forcing a farmer to buy seed from =<BR>
CHOM or forcing the same farmer to pay royalties because his crops were =<BR>
cross pollinated with his neighbors CHOM hybrid crop. Think "real =<BR>
bastards" or "corporate tools" and you'll get the underlying idea.<BR>
<BR>
My canonical sources for "history" were all GDW CT materials, mostly the =<BR>
Library Datas and the Solomani book. Please feel free to make =<BR>
suggestions about anything that might make this more canonically =<BR>
correct. The date for the campaign that this will be a part of is 1105.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Combine Honnete Orbital Mercentales, GmbH (CHOM)=20<BR>
<BR>
CHOM's corporate history suggests an origin in the old Terran High Orbit =<BR>
<BR>
Families of the era immediately preceding the Solomani development of=20<BR>
Jump technology. In fact, much of their corporate culture even to the=20<BR>
present is based on the philosophy of Solomani superiority and a sense=20<BR>
of familial fealty. The historical record does not bear these claims=20<BR>
out, however. While it is true that the corporation's roots lie in=20<BR>
Terran soil, documentation from other sources show that the corporation=20<BR>
was one of several conglomerates (such as GSbAG) which may have formed=20<BR>
quite some time after Terra's "leap to the stars," approximately -2430=20<BR>
IM.  CHOM was actually formed from several firms in the biotechnology,=20<BR>
pharmaceutical, medical and agricultural industries; the earliest=20<BR>
recorded documentation is a series of memos outlining agricultural=20<BR>
assistance efforts on Barnard, circa -1840 IM.  The corporation began to =<BR>
<BR>
establish itself during the Rule of Man, and was well established in the =<BR>
<BR>
Solomani Sphere by the time of the Interregnum. As with all things, much =<BR>
<BR>
of the corporation's history was lost to the Long Night, but it=20<BR>
definitely emerged from these dark times as a strong player in what can=20<BR>
best be described as the "business of colonization." Further, backed by=20<BR>
the strength of Solomani interests in the growing Imperial Court, CHOM=20<BR>
began aggressively marketing its various medical, agricultural,=20<BR>
terraforming and biotechnology interests throughout the Imperial Core,=20<BR>
marking a change in focus for the corporation. By the end of the=20<BR>
Pacification Campaigns, CHOM was thoroughly entrenched within the=20<BR>
Imperium, providing the technology for more than 20% of all=20<BR>
bioengineered food crops throughout the Imperium. They were also the=20<BR>
fourth largest suppliers of medical equipment and supplies, including=20<BR>
pharmaceuticals, to the Imperial Military and Scout Services.=20<BR>
CHOM ran into a major stumbling block with the succession of Zhakirov to =<BR>
<BR>
the Iridium Throne and his subsequent marriage to Antiama in 679. As=20<BR>
Vilani corporate interests regained influence in the Court, Solomani=20<BR>
interests at Court were severely weakened. With the Solomani went=20<BR>
lucrative Imperial contracts. For too long, Solomani megacorporations=20<BR>
had been propped up and complacent. CHOM was no exception; however, many =<BR>
<BR>
worlds, especially Vilani worlds, depended heavily on CHOM licensed=20<BR>
technology. CHOM, while weakened, was still viable and to all=20<BR>
appearances has made a full recovery. It is interesting to note that=20<BR>
within CHOM corporate culture, Emperor Zhakirov's marriage to Antiama is =<BR>
<BR>
still referred to as "the Betrayal" or "the Great Betrayal," a sign that =<BR>
<BR>
the terracentric corporation has no love for the Alkhalikoi dynasty.=20<BR>
This is further reflected in the fact that of all the Imperial Charter=20<BR>
Megacorporations, CHOM is the most independent, with fewer shares held=20<BR>
by the Imperial Family than any other.=20<BR>
CHOM's corporate structure is similar to most megacorporations due to=20<BR>
the distances involved. There is a Board of Directors on Deneb that is=20<BR>
in overall control of the corporation. The corporate headquarters had=20<BR>
previously been located on Terra, but were moved in the wake of the=20<BR>
Solomani Rim War. There still exists a strong corporate presence on=20<BR>
Terra, but in light of the continuing conflict and recent expansions by=20<BR>
CHOM into the Spinward Marches, there are no plans to return to Terra in =<BR>
<BR>
the foreseeable future. The Board sets the strategic philosophy of CHOM=20<BR>
and passes their directives down to the local (planetary) levels. There=20<BR>
is very little middle management. CHOM's employee base is the smallest=20<BR>
of any of the megacorporations, but their combined payroll is one of the =<BR>
<BR>
largest, due to the professional nature of much of the work they do.=20<BR>
CHOM's recruiters are known for their freedom in offering incentives;=20<BR>
CHOM hires more for attitude and proficiency than for social standing or =<BR>
<BR>
background. However, Solomani candidates are often given preferential=20<BR>
treatment. CHOM does have a modest fleet of ships in various commercial=20<BR>
and paramilitary configurations, mostly designed and built to=20<BR>
specification by GSbAG. A CHOM courier network utilizing the ubiquitous=20<BR>
Type S Scout/Courier handles most routine corporate communication and=20<BR>
handles almost all of the personnel transportation. However, the=20<BR>
Imperial X-Boat Network is used for a growing amount of this traffic due =<BR>
<BR>
to the greater distances in the Spinward Marches. Due to the nature of=20<BR>
the work that CHOM does, corporate installations on worlds tend to be=20<BR>
small, lightly staffed and in industrial settings, fairly well=20<BR>
automated. Senior scientists with a knack for leadership administrate=20<BR>
most facilities and are the primary point of contact with the Board of=20<BR>
Directors on Deneb. Most facilities do have a security detachment, whose =<BR>
<BR>
function is not only to protect the employees, but also to protect CHOM=20<BR>
licenses and copyrights, especially with regard to pharmaceuticals and=20<BR>
bioengineered flora and fauna raised for food.  CHOM Security is not=20<BR>
simply paramilitary, but also has an extensive legal department,=20<BR>
forensic scientists and an administrative staff.=20<BR>
CHOM today is much as it was a thousand years ago. There exists within=20<BR>
CHOM a culture that is identifiably unique, albeit influenced strongly=20<BR>
by Solomani culture. CHOM no longer maintains such a strong presence in=20<BR>
the highly developed Imperial Core. Expansions in the Spinward Marches=20<BR>
have led CHOM to invest heavily in the region with contract agriculture, =<BR>
<BR>
contract medicine, bioengineering, terraforming, and some recent strides =<BR>
<BR>
in agricultural and medical robotics. Also, with the less stringent=20<BR>
social atmosphere inherent in the Marches, CHOM is beginning=20<BR>
experimentation into medical applications for cybernetics and vat-grown=20<BR>
tissue transplantation, long considered taboo in the much more=20<BR>
conservative Core regions of the Imperium.=20<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><HEAD><TITLE>FW: Rough Draft</TITLE><BR>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =<BR>
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE><BR>
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<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
This is something I tacked together after Rob's =<BR>
request for=20<BR>
corporate profiles. To answer a few questions before they come =<BR>
up:<BR>
<BR>
The name is&nbsp;rather similar to the name of the =<BR>
trade=20<BR>
federation in Dune. The similarity ends there. In the Dune universe, =<BR>
CHOAM is=20<BR>
something entirely different. I wanted a certain feel, so with apologies =<BR>
to=20<BR>
Frank, I sorta borrowed the name.<BR>
<BR>
This is written from a "Fortune 500" perspective. That =<BR>
is to=20<BR>
say, it is a description that is ten miles wide and one inch deep. This=20<BR>
megacorporation has a very dark side; think modern-day Monsanto or Dow, =<BR>
with a=20<BR>
sprinkling of ADM for good measure. I picture the representatives of =<BR>
this corp's=20<BR>
legal division either forcing a farmer to buy seed from CHOM or forcing =<BR>
the same=20<BR>
farmer to pay royalties because his crops were cross pollinated with his =<BR>
<BR>
neighbors CHOM hybrid crop. Think "real bastards"&nbsp;or "corporate =<BR>
tools" and=20<BR>
you'll get the underlying idea.<BR>
<BR>
My canonical sources for "history" were all GDW CT =<BR>
materials,=20<BR>
mostly the Library Datas and the Solomani book. Please feel free to make =<BR>
<BR>
suggestions about anything that might make this more canonically =<BR>
correct. The=20<BR>
date for the campaign that this will be a part of is 1105.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
Combine Honnete Orbital Mercentales, GmbH =<BR>
(CHOM) <BR>
<BR>
CHOM's corporate history suggests an origin in the old =<BR>
Terran=20<BR>
High Orbit <BR>
Families of the era immediately =preceding the=20Solomani development of <BR>
Jump technology. In =fact, much=20of their corporate culture even to the <BR>
present = is based=20 on the philosophy of Solomani superiority and a sense <BR>
of=20familial fealty. The historical record does not bear these claims =<BR>
out, however. While it is true that the corporation's =roots lie=20in <BR>
Terran soil, documentation from other =sources show=20that the corporation <BR>
was one of several =conglomerates=20(such as GSbAG) which may have formed <BR>
quite =some time=20after Terra's "leap to the stars," approximately -2430 <BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>IM.&nbsp; CHOM was actually formed from several firms in the=20biotechnology, <BR>
pharmaceutical, medical and =agricultural=20industries; the earliest <BR>
recorded =documentation is a=20series of memos outlining agricultural <BR>
assistance=20efforts on Barnard, circa -1840 IM.&nbsp; The corporation began =to=20<BR>
establish itself during the Rule of Man, and was well =established in the <BR>
Solomani Sphere by the time =of the=20Interregnum. As with all things, much <BR>
of the=20corporation's history was lost to the Long Night, but it =<BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>definitely emerged from these dark times as a strong player in =what=20can <BR>
best be described as the "business of =colonization."=20Further, backed by <BR>
the strength of Solomani =interests in=20the growing Imperial Court, CHOM <BR>
began =aggressively=20marketing its various medical, agricultural, <BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>terraforming and biotechnology interests throughout the =Imperial=20Core, <BR>
marking a change in focus for the =corporation. By=20the end of the <BR>
Pacification Campaigns, CHOM =was=20thoroughly entrenched within the <BR>
Imperium, =providing the=20technology for more than 20% of all <BR>
bioengineered food=20crops throughout the Imperium. They were also the <BR>
fourth=20largest suppliers of medical equipment and supplies, including =<BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>pharmaceuticals, to the Imperial Military and Scout Services.=20<BR>
CHOM ran into a major stumbling block with the =succession of Zhakirov to <BR>
the Iridium Throne =and his=20subsequent marriage to Antiama in 679. As <BR>
Vilani=20corporate interests regained influence in the Court, Solomani =<BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>interests at Court were severely weakened. With the Solomani =went=20<BR>
lucrative Imperial contracts. For too long, Solomani=20megacorporations <BR>
had been propped up and =complacent.=20CHOM was no exception; however, many <BR>
worlds, =especially=20Vilani worlds, depended heavily on CHOM licensed <BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>technology. CHOM, while weakened, was still viable and to =all=20<BR>
appearances has made a full recovery. It is =interesting to note=20that <BR>
within CHOM corporate culture, Emperor =Zhakirov's=20marriage to Antiama is <BR>
still referred to as ="the=20Betrayal" or "the Great Betrayal," a sign that <BR>
the=20terracentric corporation has no love for the Alkhalikoi dynasty.=20<BR>
This is further reflected in the fact that of all the =Imperial=20Charter <BR>
Megacorporations, CHOM is the most =independent,=20with fewer shares held <BR>
by the Imperial Family =than any=20other. <BR>
CHOM's corporate structure is similar =to most=20megacorporations due to <BR>
the distances =involved. There is=20a Board of Directors on Deneb that is <BR>
in =overall control=20of the corporation. The corporate headquarters had <BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>previously been located on Terra, but were moved in the wake of =the <BR>
Solomani Rim War. There still exists a =strong=20corporate presence on <BR>
Terra, but in light of =the=20continuing conflict and recent expansions by <BR>
CHOM into=20the Spinward Marches, there are no plans to return to Terra in =<BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>the foreseeable future. The Board sets the strategic philosophy =of=20CHOM <BR>
and passes their directives down to the =local=20(planetary) levels. There <BR>
is very little =middle=20management. CHOM's employee base is the smallest <BR>
of any=20of the megacorporations, but their combined payroll is one of the =<BR>
largest, due to the professional nature of much of =the work=20they do. <BR>
CHOM's recruiters are known for their =freedom=20in offering incentives; <BR>
CHOM hires more for =attitude and=20proficiency than for social standing or <BR>
background.=20However, Solomani candidates are often given preferential =<BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>treatment. CHOM does have a modest fleet of ships in various=20commercial <BR>
and paramilitary configurations, =mostly=20designed and built to <BR>
specification by GSbAG. =A CHOM=20courier network utilizing the ubiquitous <BR>
Type =S=20Scout/Courier handles most routine corporate communication and =<BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>handles almost all of the personnel transportation. However, =the=20<BR>
Imperial X-Boat Network is used for a growing amount =of this=20traffic due <BR>
to the greater distances in the =Spinward=20Marches. Due to the nature of <BR>
the work that =CHOM does,=20corporate installations on worlds tend to be <BR>
small,=20lightly staffed and in industrial settings, fairly well <BR>
automated. Senior scientists with a knack for leadership=20administrate <BR>
most facilities and are the =primary point=20of contact with the Board of <BR>
Directors on =Deneb. Most=20facilities do have a security detachment, whose <BR>
function=20is not only to protect the employees, but also to protect CHOM =<BR>
<FONT=20size=3D2>licenses and copyrights, especially with regard to =pharmaceuticals=20and <BR>
bioengineered flora and fauna raised for =food.&nbsp;=20CHOM Security is not <BR>
simply paramilitary, but =also has=20an extensive legal department, <BR>
forensic =scientists and=20an administrative staff. <BR>
CHOM today is much as =it was a=20 thousand years ago. There exists within <BR>
CHOM a =culture=20that is identifiably unique, albeit influenced strongly <BR>
by Solomani culture. CHOM no longer maintains such a strong =presence=20in <BR>
the highly developed Imperial Core. =Expansions in the=20Spinward Marches <BR>
have led CHOM to invest =heavily in the=20region with contract agriculture, <BR>
contract =medicine,=20bioengineering, terraforming, and some recent strides <BR>
in=20agricultural and medical robotics. Also, with the less stringent=20<BR>
social atmosphere inherent in the Marches, CHOM is=20beginning <BR>
experimentation into medical =applications for=20cybernetics and vat-grown <BR>
tissue =transplantation, long=20considered taboo in the much more <BR>
conservative =Core=20regions of the Imperium. <BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BFDBD8.7CBAA990--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:38:36 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: To Loren: I read your footnotes!<BR>
<BR>
Loren, you closed your most recent JTAS editorial with the following<BR>
comment:<BR>
<BR>
"Is anybody reading these things?"<BR>
<BR>
I read both your footnotes and the editorials which point to your footnotes.<BR>
Indeed, they are invariably the first thing I read when an issue of JTAS<BR>
arrives at my house, hot off the virtual presses. The editorials are pretty<BR>
nifty. I dig 'em. If you keep writing, them, I'll keep reading them.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:45:09 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reprints 1<BR>
<BR>
At 12:16 PM -0400 6/21/00, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 6/20/00 9:29:17 PM Central Daylight Time,<BR>
>eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:<BR>
><BR>
><<<BR>
>  >I sure wish these were available via Warehouse 23.  I have never been<BR>
>  >able to figure out Marc's web site...<BR>
><BR>
>   >><BR>
>What can't you figure out? Send a check to Far Future, or sign up with Paypal.<BR>
><BR>
>Marc<BR>
<BR>
I never could figure out exactly what I could order or how much it cost.<BR>
Maybe it's changed since then.  I'll have to look again.  It seemed<BR>
complicated and I was at work and didn't have a lot of time to follow<BR>
links.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:58:27 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph Kimball" <jekimball@prodigy.net><BR>
Subject: [ct-starships] TDDC News<BR>
<BR>
Traveller Deckplans Design Contest News<BR>
TDDC#1 Concludes<BR>
TDDC#2 Begins<BR>
<BR>
Hello all,<BR>
<BR>
The first Traveller Deckplan Design Contest, <BR>
http://members.home.net/spacecraft/TDDC/main.htm , has concluded. I <BR>
would like to thank everyone who participated by voting, and <BR>
especially the contestants, for making it a success. The results are <BR>
somewhat embarrassing - i won both categories. I swear, <BR>
cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-play-T4, that i did not fiddle the results <BR>
in my favour. Hopefully this result will encourage more of you to <BR>
come out and put me in my place.<BR>
<BR>
Your chance is right now! The second Traveller Deckplans Design <BR>
Contest is underway. http://members.home.net/spacecraft/TDDC/main.htm <BR>
This time we are reinterpreting a classic, the Jump-3, 1-G, 600 dton <BR>
Type-R Subsidized Liner. Submissions will be accepted until midnight, <BR>
Monday, 10 July.<BR>
While everyone in TDDC#1 used various computer software packages, the <BR>
TDDC is not a computer art contest. All media are welcome.<BR>
<BR>
Full contest details, submission instruction and contest rules are <BR>
available at http://members.home.net/spacecraft/TDDC/main.htm <BR>
<BR>
Thank you for your attention.<BR>
<BR>
   Gordon Horne, Host, Traveller Deckplans Design Contest<BR>
   mailto:spacecraft@home.net <BR>
   http://members.home.net/spacecraft/TDDC/main.htm <BR>
<BR>
=========================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2637<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 22 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2638<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Snub Pistol Gas Rounds et al<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
RE: To Loren: I read your footnotes!<BR>
Re: Old Feelings<BR>
RE: To Loren: I read your footnotes!<BR>
Re: Mayday and Snapshot in SF<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Water on Mars<BR>
Re: maps for Zhodani sectors<BR>
Re: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
Re: Mayday and Snapshot in SF<BR>
Re: To Loren: I read your footnotes!<BR>
Re: Historical Tech Levels<BR>
Re:  Fractional c combat<BR>
Re: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
shipboard weapon use<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:30:17 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Snub Pistol Gas Rounds et al<BR>
<BR>
on 6/20/00 9:01 PM, Pat Connaughton at pconn@i1.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Snip<BR>
> <BR>
> This thread is of some interest to our group; however,<BR>
> I'd like to pose a question to the List (oh, almighty and<BR>
> all (sic) knowing).<BR>
> <BR>
> Has anyone organized a listing of the various loads<BR>
> or rounds that player/GM's/Gearheads have created for<BR>
> the guns of Traveller.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Pat,<BR>
<BR>
I am trying to build a central site for gun buff/gearheads.<BR>
<BR>
see the Mercenary's Guide to Weapons (http://weapons.travellercentral.com).<BR>
Submissions are welcome.<BR>
<BR>
I'm also looking for MT, TNE, T4, GT players to help port my CT stats over<BR>
to those respective systems.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:40:06 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Thing <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> They also make it possible to "wound" someone in a vaccsuit more<BR>
> easily. One slice and he's out of the fight until he can get it<BR>
> patched. Bullet holes tend to be easier to seal.<BR>
<BR>
I would agree, also there is no reload time nor extra clips to carry.  You<BR>
can also thrust with most blades, cutlass included.<BR>
<BR>
I've used both broadsword, katana and shanai succesfully in fairly narrow<BR>
corridors.  If you keep your strokes on a steep amgle you can manage a<BR>
fairly steep X pattern.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
Thing under the stairs,<BR>
Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
===========================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:51:04 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: To Loren: I read your footnotes!<BR>
<BR>
Gotta' throw in a "Me too" here.  Keep it up Loren!<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Chris<BR>
> Seamans<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 8:39 PM<BR>
> To: TML<BR>
> Subject: To Loren: I read your footnotes!<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Loren, you closed your most recent JTAS editorial with the following<BR>
> comment:<BR>
> <BR>
> "Is anybody reading these things?"<BR>
> <BR>
> I read both your footnotes and the editorials which point to your <BR>
> footnotes.<BR>
> Indeed, they are invariably the first thing I read when an issue of JTAS<BR>
> arrives at my house, hot off the virtual presses. The editorials <BR>
> are pretty<BR>
> nifty. I dig 'em. If you keep writing, them, I'll keep reading them.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:15:09<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Old Feelings<BR>
<BR>
At 09:18 PM 6/21/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Speaking of which, I just got my new TX state ID card (not DL but they use <BR>
>the same camera). I look like I'm wanted in seven states! <BR>
<BR>
Feh.  If we ever hook up, I'll show you the DL photo that was taken the day<BR>
before I had my first seizure and subsequent cancer diagnosis.  We call it<BR>
the "Dachau Driver's Licence" photo.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:16:51<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: To Loren: I read your footnotes!<BR>
<BR>
At 09:51 PM 6/21/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Gotta' throw in a "Me too" here.  Keep it up Loren!<BR>
<BR>
Me too^2.  In fact, the Editorial is sometimes the only thing I read<BR>
immediately.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:39:23 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mayday and Snapshot in SF<BR>
<BR>
Mitchell Hudson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>     Hi all, after reasding all of those posts about "Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday" I am jazzed to play some snapshot and mayday again! I live in SF and was thinking to see<BR>
> if anyone on the list also lived in SF and migh be up for a game at Gamescape on divisadero some time in the near future?<BR>
<BR>
As another option, we play in San Jose and have people driving down from<BR>
San Rafael and even further north.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:24:17 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
on 6/21/00 9:40 PM, Thing at gduke@telebyte.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> They also make it possible to "wound" someone in a vaccsuit more<BR>
>> easily. One slice and he's out of the fight until he can get it<BR>
>> patched. Bullet holes tend to be easier to seal.<BR>
> <BR>
> I would agree, also there is no reload time nor extra clips to carry.  You<BR>
> can also thrust with most blades, cutlass included.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
According to CT a vacc suit is treated as cloth armor.  I'd like to see<BR>
someone slash through a threat level III kevlar ballistic vest with a sword.<BR>
Thrust, maybe with a katana or similar sharply pointed tip.  A thrust will<BR>
be more likely to be lethal too.<BR>
<BR>
Bullet holes may be easier to seal, but bullets from modern weapons do<BR>
damage far out of proportion to their size.  You don't get hydraulic shock<BR>
from a sword.<BR>
<BR>
Out of ammo.  Only if you really limiting what you can carry. I take my TL 7<BR>
AKSU-74 (nice and short) and strap on a 75 rnd mag.  I can shoot for a<BR>
really long time before reloading.  And because I'm smart, I brought along a<BR>
friend to cover my while I'm reloading.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not worried about ricochets, because I'm using highly frangible<BR>
ammunition.  Heck, this stuff might not even pierce your vacc suit, just<BR>
drive the fabric 5 or 6 inches into you chest.  Anything important in there?<BR>
<BR>
If swords and such were really all that useful in close combat, troops would<BR>
use them.  They don't.<BR>
<BR>
A pity, too.  I always liked the Idea of sword and blaster.  IMTU, combat<BR>
cutlery is restricted to fighting knives (useful for sticking someone in the<BR>
back when they're not expecting it), parade pig stickers and dueling weapons<BR>
(used in very restrictive, code bound exchanges of honor).<BR>
<BR>
Time and again I think of 'Raiders of the Lost Ark', and the scene we waited<BR>
years to see.  Sword versus gun.<BR>
<BR>
naturally, just my opinion.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:26:12<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Water on Mars<BR>
<BR>
Re-write the UWP, they've discovered evidence of water, *liquid* water, on<BR>
the surface of Mars!<BR>
<BR>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_799000/799552.stm<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  <BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Alle preisen den Pinguinherrscher!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 02:25:39 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: maps for Zhodani sectors<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> types:<BR>
<BR>
>GypsyComet@aol.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> Aside from frequent repeating on the Web and other places, they are not <BR>
>> official. If someone HAS made them official, they really should tell me, <BR>
>> since I did a LOT of the world naming for Zhdant, and Tienspevnekr is <BR>
>> entirely mine...<BR>
>>   I have the sector listing for Tienspevnekr (and probably Zhdant) on a<BR>
>>   disk  <BR>
>> around here somewhere, as well as a preliminary listing for all of Usingou <BR>
>> (with dotmap pulled from Cogs & Dogs; OY my eyes!).<BR>
><BR>
>Hm...I'd be interested in Usingou.  There's a lot of missing names in Zhdant <BR>
as >well, not to mention a water world with a population of 900 billion.<BR>
<BR>
 Hmm. My listing for Zhdant is all named, though I recall talking to Will <BR>
Dover at the time about the Droyne world names. I have NO idea if Zhdant has <BR>
changed beyond what Will and I worked on six years ago...<BR>
 A glance through the Usingou/Ziafrplians (Vargr/Zho names) shows that the <BR>
whole sector was generated by my (sadly now incompatible) Zhodani Sector <BR>
Generator, and so even the Vargr worlds use the Zhodani rules. I need to <BR>
"de-Zho" the Vargr third of the sector, as well as run it through the TNE <BR>
star-change filter. Two subsectors (O & P) and a scattering of worlds are <BR>
named, the rest are still unnamed.<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:38:18 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
<BR>
"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >If the player is not sufficiently amused by watching he can<BR>
> >always leave. <BR>
<BR>
> No, as I stated in the post which Glenn was responding to, the player can't<BR>
> always leave. Some problems I've seen:<BR>
> Not every player has a car: in such situations, players are frequently<BR>
> driven by other players. <BR>
> The location most suited for playing happens to be in an unpleasant or<BR>
> dangerous neighborhood: <BR>
> The place of play is a player's home, but it's too small for that player to<BR>
> go and do something else.<BR>
<BR>
I understand. The choice to leave is an economic choice. The <BR>
greater the cost in inconvenience, danger, etc the less likely<BR>
that choice will be made.<BR>
<BR>
I agree that character death is generally undesirable and<BR>
that the: "What does the dead guys player do?" is part of the<BR>
problem. However it seems to me that that if the risk of death<BR>
is nonexistent than this is a significant change in game dynamics.<BR>
<BR>
Given that players of characters who are physically separated<BR>
from one another may end up doing nothing while the GM deals<BR>
with another part of the party then players are going to have<BR>
to accept the fact that they need to be able to quietly amuse<BR>
themselves/ It seems to me that just as a player might have to sit<BR>
there reading, eating, smoking, achieving inner bliss, whatever while <BR>
his charecter was away from the party he might be able to do the<BR>
same while his charecter is dead. Since death is usually permanent<BR>
in most games generation of a new charecter may be an ideal use of<BR>
some or all of this time.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:50:54 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
"Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Ok, so we are going to jump now -<BR>
<BR>
> problem #1 - Jump is not an exact science in OTU. You cannot predict exactly<BR>
> where you will emerge from it - you have a pretty good idea.<BR>
<BR>
Use the future location of the planet as your target. Since<BR>
the Tigress is blockading your planet than you should be able<BR>
to attack it. if not than maybe the next ship will, you do have<BR>
1,000 Scout ships in this example.<BR>
<BR>
If the Tigress leaves than you have won anyway.<BR>
<BR>
> Problem #2 - You are going so bloody fast that if the tigress moves a few<BR>
> light seconds out of your path you are not going to be able to change your<BR>
> vector to intercept.<BR>
> <BR>
> Problem #2.5 - Combine #1 and #2 - you drop out of jump 10 LS coreward of<BR>
> your target. Woops - you just missed.<BR>
<BR>
In MT the distance from your target that you appear depends<BR>
on the effectiveness of your Astrogation skill roll<BR>
<BR>
> Problem #3 - what if the tigress just sits in the 100d zone - heck what<BR>
> about orbiting the planet? you cannot turn at .5c - lil scout ship screams<BR>
> past tigress guns^h^h^h^h gun ablazing and then, in about a blink of an eye,<BR>
> smack - no planet. But - hey, the tigress will be destroyed  by chunks of<BR>
> the planet that you just hit like a SAPHE round.<BR>
<BR>
In the situation I mentioned the Tigress was blockading the <BR>
planet.<BR>
<BR>
Moreover given the absence of planetary destruction (except by<BR>
the Ancients) in the canon Traveller universe than it seems to<BR>
me that it must be more difficult than it seems from back here<BR>
at TL 8.<BR>
<BR>
> Problem #4 - when you jump in system with a .5c delta v - how are you going<BR>
> to know where the target is? Your tactical intelligence is at least a week<BR>
> (if not more) old. A tigress (even a non-C one) can move quite a bit in two<BR>
> weeks (one week to gain tactical intelligence, one week for you to jump in<BR>
> system).<BR>
<BR>
If the Tigress leaves the area of the planet than you've met<BR>
your goals anyway.<BR>
<BR>
> Problem #5 - On your second pass, I would really like to see the predict<BR>
> program that will be able to tell you where a target will be in a week -<BR>
> after all - once you hit the button for that thar jump drive, it's wait and<BR>
> see time.<BR>
<BR>
You simply aim for the planets future location. if the Tigress <BR>
is not somewhere nearby than you've won anyway.<BR>
<BR>
> Problem #6 - Easy defense. Seed the jump points with hundreds of thousands<BR>
> of 1 gram BB's (lead should work fine - and they will double as sinkers for<BR>
> you fishermen). Each BB that smacked into your scout ship would do:<BR>
> 1/2*M*v^2 or, 1/2* 1 grams * 150000000 meters per second ^2 or about<BR>
> 11,250,000,000 Mega joules of damage, or about a pen of 14,000,000 in FFS.<BR>
<BR>
The Tigress does not know where you will show up. Your Scout<BR>
ship is small. How many 1 gram BB's will it take to mine that<BR>
much space? How many 1 gram BB'S can the Tigress's sub craft<BR>
deploy at what speed?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:00:02 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Mayday and Snapshot in SF<BR>
<BR>
Kristian Miller wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Mitchell Hudson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >     Hi all, after reasding all of those posts about "Traveller boardgaming at Kristian Miller's last Saturday" I am jazzed to play some snapshot and mayday again! I live in SF and was thinking to see<BR>
> > if anyone on the list also lived in SF and migh be up for a game at Gamescape on divisadero some time in the near future?<BR>
><BR>
> As another option, we play in San Jose and have people driving down from<BR>
> San Rafael and even further north.<BR>
<BR>
Or we find a victim.... I mean volunteer some where in the middle. Say, San leandro?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
When Spring comes back with rustling shade,<BR>
And apple blossoms fills the air,<BR>
I have a rendezvous with Death,<BR>
When spring brings back blue days and fair.<BR>
 Legionnaire Alan Seeger, KIA the Somme.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 02:59:50 -0400<BR>
From: michael stasica <stosh@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: To Loren: I read your footnotes!<BR>
<BR>
SNIP<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Loren, you closed your most recent JTAS editorial with the following<BR>
> comment:<BR>
><BR>
> "Is anybody reading these things?"<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
SNIP<BR>
<BR>
I as well read and enjoy your editorials.<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:02:41 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Historical Tech Levels<BR>
<BR>
"Katharine [Ian] Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
> > > To counter this, your TL15 credits buy more ship at TL13 due to the<BR>
> > > exchange rates.<BR>
<BR>
> > In reality they probably would but given that the MT rules do<BR>
> > not make this exchange rate distinction when buying ships this<BR>
> > is a moot point.<BR>
<BR>
> If MT rules include Striker, then oh yes they do.<BR>
<BR>
I'd call Striker a CT related product, not a MT one.<BR>
<BR>
> But if they dont, I wont even bother, because common sense, logic, rhetoric,<BR>
> history, philospophy, economics and reason have no effect on Peter Newman.<BR>
> The damn man is Muse-proof.<BR>
<BR>
"O for a muse of fire that would ascend <BR>
The brightest heaven of invention,<BR>
A kingdom for a stage, princes to act<BR>
And monarchs to behold the swelling scene!"<BR>
<BR>
Shakespeare. King Henry V, Prologue 1 - 4<BR>
As translated from the original Klingon :)<BR>
<BR>
Without meaning to disparage the members of the list I would<BR>
venture to say that non of us have demonstrated as much muse<BR>
as Shakespeare did. [1]<BR>
<BR>
They all work when not contradicted by the game rules and/or<BR>
game philosophy.<BR>
<BR>
> > The exchange rate gimmick is not available in MT. Moreover<BR>
> > the MT starship construction rules say that only a limited<BR>
> > number of systems (one or two) can be built with a different<BR>
> > TL than the ships base TL. For example Capitol is TL 15 (in<BR>
> > Milieu 1100) but is TL 16 in computers. Therefore you should<BR>
> > be able to build a mostly TL 15 ship with TL 16 computers<BR>
> > at Capitol if you'd like.<BR>
> <BR>
> Great. Then we'll have a TL9 hull with a TL15 jump drive and computer. Look,<BR>
> Ma, a rules-compliant jump-6 TL9 ship.<BR>
<BR>
Say rather a rules compliant TL 9/15 (jump & computer)<BR>
ship.<BR>
<BR>
[1] Whomever he, she, it, or they really was/is.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:18:53 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > I was thinking more of a ship jumping in with a relatively<BR>
> > high velocity firing at its target and jumping out rather<BR>
> > than making another normal space pass.<BR>
<BR>
> You can't jump in that accurately. Remember, the uncertainty in jump<BR>
> exit is *hours*. Ships move a long ways in that much time.<BR>
<BR>
The Tigress is orbiting and blockading the planet. Simply<BR>
set a spot near the planets future location as your destination.<BR>
In MT the distance you appear from your target depends on<BR>
how well you make your Astrogation roll. Since jump duration<BR>
is highly variable but this does not affect how far away from<BR>
your target your ship appears it seems likely to me that when<BR>
you jump you are targeting not an exact location but rather<BR>
a location relative to the planets gravity well.<BR>
<BR>
Otherwise if you made a six day jump than you would appear <BR>
where the planet would be in a day and if you made an eight<BR>
day jump you would appear where the planet was a day ago. Since <BR>
this is not how jumps work in Traveller than it seems to me<BR>
that the Astogator's task is to target a gravinometric location<BR>
not a spatial one.<BR>
<BR>
Your mileage may vary but to me this is very strongly implied<BR>
by the canon rules on jumping. Another possible explanation<BR>
would be that when you jump you must first chart a 'jump<BR>
exit funnel' such that at time X your target Planet Y is near<BR>
these coordinates.<BR>
<BR>
> Natural dust *will* hit you. That's the problem. At .5 c a milligram<BR>
> dust mote delivers the energy equivalent of 5 tonnes of TNT (6 once you<BR>
> add in the relativity corrections).<BR>
> Such collisions will be *frequent* if you are within 100 diameters of a<BR>
> planet. Hell, collisions with larger objects are possible.<BR>
<BR>
How many seconds or minutes will there be between said<BR>
collisions if this solar system has a dust density similar<BR>
to our Solar systems?<BR>
<BR>
> > If a Tigress Costs MCr 362,721 and a crew of 4,054 and a Scout <BR>
> > ship costs MCr 29.43 and has a crew of one (CT Sup 9) than you <BR>
> > may well be better off loosing 1,000 Scout ships destroying that<BR>
> > Tigress and breaking the siege. Given that you will need a fair<BR>
> > ammount of time to boost these ships to near C velocities you<BR>
> > will need some lag time to get the program started. Once<BR>
> > you get your kamikazee scout ship program going you may be<BR>
> > able to have a 0.5 C Scout ship possing out of jump near<BR>
> > the Tigress every hour or so and trying to destroy it.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not possible. You can't time jumps that accurately.<BR>
<BR>
Yes you can in MT. The MT rules permit ships that are<BR>
part of the same fleet to emerge from jump at times that<BR>
are quite close to one another.<BR>
<BR>
Even if you don't use this rule if you start with a thousand<BR>
ships that all jump around the same time (and are in good<BR>
condition) than 970 of these ships will emerge from jump<BR>
space six to eight days later near their target. 970 ships/<BR>
48 hours equals about 20 ships per hour. My statement of 1 per<BR>
hour was quite conservative. i was not saying that any<BR>
specific ship would come out of jump at any specific time I was<BR>
speaking statistically.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:24:47 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > One of my theories is that most PC's are the products of extremely<BR>
> > dysfunctional families. I figure that many PC's are the product<BR>
> > of physically, emotionally, and/or sexually abusive homes. Given<BR>
> > how the hell they grew up in has affected their charecters they<BR>
> > tend to react abnormally (i.e. more like PC's and less like<BR>
> > people). <BR>
> > Disclaimer: I am not implying that all people from dysfunctional<BR>
> > families are screwed up nor am I implying that all people from<BR>
> > 'normal' homes are OK I am merely suggesting a positive correlation<BR>
> > between the two factors.<BR>
> <BR>
> As someone from a dysfunctional family, I didn't take offense. On the<BR>
> other hand, I also am *more* "risk averse" than the average person. It<BR>
> can go either way.<BR>
<BR>
I also come from a dysfunctional family and am more risk<BR>
averse than the average person. I am simply suggesting that<BR>
a dysfunctional home life may be a good part of the reason why<BR>
many PC's act like PC's and not like people.<BR>
<BR>
In reality PC's act differently than people because the player<BR>
knows the PC is not a real person. Thus the PC can be less<BR>
risk averse (and less lazy) than the player is. The player does<BR>
not normally risk dying when his character tries some stupid<BR>
Errol Flynn type stunt thus the PC is more likely to try Errol<BR>
Flynnery than a 'real' person would.<BR>
<BR>
I was simply trying to offer a game universe reason why many<BR>
characters are less risk averse and less in contact with their<BR>
families than many 'real' people are.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 02:12:46 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: shipboard weapon use<BR>
<BR>
>         Does anyone else penalize broadsword use in a standard 148 cm wide<BR>
>         by 223 cm high starship corridor?  Even a cutlass might be a little<BR>
>         constrained in such quarters, but I'm generous since it is supposed<BR>
>         to be the "standard shipboard weapon."  Halberds, pikes, etc. just<BR>
>         don't strike me as efficient weapons in tight passageways.  I also<BR>
>         divide firearms into several categories depending on how much<BR>
>         initiative will be penalized coming around corners in a ship: rifles,<BR>
>         carbines, smg's, and pistols.  How do people deal with these<BR>
>         situations?<BR>
<BR>
Broadsword use, ya.  A cutlass, it would depend on the user.  With no <BR>
skill, yes.<BR>
Skill level 1-2, against unarmored foes, no.  They would know enough to <BR>
slice rather than hack.<BR>
A halberb/pike would be useful for holding non-firearm using foes at a <BR>
distance, but that's about it in those dimensional constraints.<BR>
<BR>
I agree with you on the firearm end.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
Exigis Domus Hillaria - http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:42:14 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Yup, good points.  I still think the difficulty to hit fighters (and<BR>
>conversely the relative ease of hitting large ships) is underestimated in<BR>
>the combat systems.  In HG, they get a -2 to be hit, vs. a +2 to hit big<BR>
>ships.  Not nearly enough, IMO.  Also, weapons with better ranges won't be<BR>
>all that useful since there's no way to defeat light-lag.  <BR>
<BR>
However, it's difficult to design a laser that a fighter can use which<BR>
delivers much damage beyond 100,000km (or a meson bay that can damage<BR>
anything with a meson screen at any range)<BR>
<BR>
However, a PA bay can easily reach 1 million km and still do enough damage<BR>
to gut a fighter in one shot.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:52:05 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de> wrote:<BR>
>Moin Charles Collin,<BR>
><BR>
>  you forgot some important points - that make your asumption even more true.<BR>
><BR>
>> Time lag to rounds reaching target:<BR>
>> T = 2 * R (Range in light-seconds, assuming no processing time)<BR>
><BR>
>  The time lag is much longer. This T = 2 * R would mean that the ship<BR>
>  has to fire blind using a passive sensor lock. But the 'canon' traveller<BR>
>  time lag is T=3*R as you need an active pencil beam pointer lock.<BR>
<BR>
That's not right, you don't have to worry about how long the active pulse<BR>
take to reach the target. Your active system keeps sending signals towards<BR>
the target, so you only need to know where they bounced off the target and<BR>
how long to come back.<BR>
<BR>
>  The second problem is the 'rate of fire' of most traveller weapons.<BR>
><BR>
>  Most civilian weapons fire any 3 minutes, most military any 18 seconds.<BR>
>  Meson guns are not able to fire more often, and lasers increase in size.<BR>
>  Only those 68MJ point defense lasers may fire more often. Tl*50 should<BR>
>  be the limit on HPGs to prevent weapons sharing a single HPG round robin.<BR>
<BR>
So why can't I use multiple HPGs, one for each laser in the array (assuming<BR>
"multi-barrelled" PD lasers.) or even one HPG for each pulse?<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:18:01 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Ian Ferguson<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, 22 June 2000 03:33<BR>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Frank Pitt writes:<BR>
> >>Does anyone else penalize broadsword use in a standard 148 cm wide<BR>
> >>by 223 cm high starship corridor?<BR>
> >I don't usually bother, someone traind in broadsword can use it as a<BR>
> >thrusting weapon as well, and most sword attacks are strikes not<BR>
> swings, so<BR>
> >as long as the broadsword is short enough to be held upright at<BR>
> about neck<BR>
> >height without hitting the ceiling it should be fine.<BR>
><BR>
> 	I penalize the roll to hit, I do not disallow the attack.  The<BR>
> 	suggestion is that the attacker must modify their attack, and<BR>
> 	perhaps have fewer options.<BR>
><BR>
> >Of course large broadswords and greatswords would have difficulty.<BR>
> >BTW, I originally read this as referring to Broadsword mercenary<BR>
> >cruisers....<BR>
><BR>
> 	My players would bring the cruiser down the hall, given half a<BR>
> 	chance...<BR>
><BR>
> >>Even a cutlass might be a little<BR>
> >>constrained in such quarters, but I'm generous since it is supposed<BR>
> >>to be the "standard shipboard weapon."  Halberds, pikes, etc. just<BR>
> >>don't strike me as efficient weapons in tight passageways.<BR>
> >Pikes are _extremely_ efficient weapons in tight passageways, as<BR>
> long as yuo<BR>
> >can get them there in the first place.<BR>
> >Remember, phalanxes were only beaten by beng outflanked, and you can't<BR>
> >outflank them in a corridor.  Of course, this assumes that people are not<BR>
> >using missile weapons or that the pike -weildrs have really effective<BR>
> >sheilds,<BR>
><BR>
> 	Agreed.  I would consider preventing a cutlass-wielding Marine from<BR>
> 	getting close enough to a pikeman to attack, if the pike<BR>
> scored a hit.<BR>
<BR>
Classic Traveller's range bands are useful for this, you can say polearms<BR>
get to attack<BR>
at "short" and cutlasses only at "close" or something, with the<BR>
cutlass-wielders only able to close if all the pike-weilders fail their<BR>
combat rolls.<BR>
<BR>
> > > I also divide firearms into several categories<BR>
> > > depending on how much initiative will be penalized<BR>
> > > coming around corners in a  ship: rifles, carbines,<BR>
> > > smg's, and pistols.  How do people deal with these<BR>
> > > situations?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I don't see the point.<BR>
> > A trained rifleman can go round a corner just as<BR>
> > quickly as someone using a pistol, as long as there<BR>
> > is enough room to move, which there usually is unless<BR>
> > there are lots of people in the  corridor next<BR>
> > to him.<BR>
><BR>
> This seems counter-intuitive.  I have no training in such<BR>
> skills,<BR>
<BR>
I have minimal training, and absolutely no live experience,<BR>
but a reasonable amount of "live fire" experience with targets, though I<BR>
haven't fired a gun of any sort for almost ten years now.<BR>
<BR>
> poking my head out with an autopistol and one hand<BR>
> seems to be quicker than moving much of my body<BR>
> out with a heavier and longer autorifle.<BR>
<BR>
Think of it this way, both require moving your _body_ the same distance,<BR>
asuming you are already in firing position when you move.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, if you think of the "movie" way of firing round a corner, starting with<BR>
holding your weapon with the barrel pointing up and your back against the<BR>
wall you're about to look around, swinging round and taking up a firing<BR>
position in one go, then yes the pistol is likely to be faster.<BR>
<BR>
But that method actually exposes you for longer than taking up a firing<BR>
position first, stepping out one step, firing, and stepping back, and when<BR>
doing that, the movement is exactly the same, just the stepping.<BR>
<BR>
> It is my impression that short, light weapons are favoured<BR>
> in "block-busting" and room-to-room combat (along with<BR>
> grenades).  Is this not so?<BR>
<BR>
(Following all in my possibly ill-informed opinion, there are proabably<BR>
people better qualified to comment on the list)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, high rate of fire weapons or riotguns are what are preferred, not<BR>
because of size (an automatic riotgun is quite a large heavy thing, compared<BR>
to say, an M16) but because they put a lot of shot in the air very quickly<BR>
meaning you don't have to aim so much which in turn means you don't have to<BR>
expose for as long when firing.<BR>
<BR>
> What are the pros and cons to such weapons in these situations?<BR>
<BR>
Firstly, you have to seperate most SWAT operations and any operations<BR>
involving hostages or potential hostages, from all-out room-clearing.<BR>
<BR>
There are many situations where a pistol is a _much_ better choice, such as<BR>
when you're expected to shoot three of the eight people in a room in rapid<BR>
succession, the pistol can be moved between targets at speed with greater<BR>
precision (at least I found it that way when comparing using a 9mm Browning<BR>
with a FN-FAL on a "hostage shoot" )<BR>
<BR>
If all you want to do is kill or disable all the people in the room then<BR>
"brooms" and grenades are a better choice, and I'd rather have an FN FAL on<BR>
automatic than a pistol, but would probably prefer something with a higher<BR>
ROF<BR>
<BR>
> >I'd penalise someone carryng a Barret .50 or Boys AT or similar, but then<BR>
> >you'd be siilly to use one of those on the move.<BR>
><BR>
> 	By "silly" you mean "a player-character," don't you?  :)<BR>
<BR>
<grin><BR>
Unless they were wearing powered armour, I'd probably not only give them "to<BR>
hit" penalties but also injure them from the recoil !<BR>
<BR>
> >Penalties should really only apply when in hand to hand combat, and then<BR>
> >only in certain situations.<BR>
><BR>
> 	I apply penalties on a case-by-case basis, but I let my players know<BR>
> 	that I will consider how much room there is for some weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, that's the way to go, as long as the players are aware of what's going<BR>
on, it's better to just throw in penalties when it makes sense. Heck, if<BR>
you're GM it's your call, and even if they don't think the penalty is<BR>
neccesary, a good player won't argue with your decision.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2638<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 22 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2639<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: shipboard weapon use<BR>
Shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
RE: "Portations"<BR>
RE: "Portations"<BR>
Re: [Traveller-Culture] SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2635<BR>
Re: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Re: "Portations"<BR>
RE: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
Re: Old feelings<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:28:35 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: shipboard weapon use<BR>
<BR>
What about riot shields? A wall of modern style SWAT shields would be good in<BR>
boarding/ anti-boarding attempts...are there rules for this?<BR>
<BR>
Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >         Does anyone else penalize broadsword use in a standard 148 cm wide<BR>
> >         by 223 cm high starship corridor?  Even a cutlass might be a little<BR>
> >         constrained in such quarters, but I'm generous since it is supposed<BR>
> >         to be the "standard shipboard weapon."  Halberds, pikes, etc. just<BR>
> >         don't strike me as efficient weapons in tight passageways.  I also<BR>
> >         divide firearms into several categories depending on how much<BR>
> >         initiative will be penalized coming around corners in a ship: rifles,<BR>
> >         carbines, smg's, and pistols.  How do people deal with these<BR>
> >         situations?<BR>
><BR>
> Broadsword use, ya.  A cutlass, it would depend on the user.  With no<BR>
> skill, yes.<BR>
> Skill level 1-2, against unarmored foes, no.  They would know enough to<BR>
> slice rather than hack.<BR>
> A halberb/pike would be useful for holding non-firearm using foes at a<BR>
> distance, but that's about it in those dimensional constraints.<BR>
><BR>
> I agree with you on the firearm end.<BR>
><BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
> Exigis Domus Hillaria - http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 04:24:26 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
>I would agree, also there is no reload time nor extra clips to carry.  You<BR>
>can also thrust with most blades, cutlass included.<BR>
<BR>
A 'point', many saberists forget. :-)  Peter Westerbrook, top US Saber <BR>
fencer for multiple years, said that he got half his  points in <BR>
international saber competition using the point.<BR>
<BR>
>I've used both broadsword, katana and shanai succesfully in fairly narrow<BR>
>corridors.  If you keep your strokes on a steep amgle you can manage a<BR>
>fairly steep X pattern.<BR>
<BR>
This level of control in a combat situation would require a mid-high skill <BR>
level, IMHO.<BR>
The steep cuts also reduce the range advantage of those weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm...perhaps a high tech Gladius would be a good shipboard CQC (Close <BR>
Quarters Combat) weapon...<BR>
I still like my old idea of a retractable crystiron spike mounted on the <BR>
forearm of Combat Armor/Battledres.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
"We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued<BR>
other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and<BR>
rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." - James D. Nicoll<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 01:33:38 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Role playing (was: RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I also come from a dysfunctional family and am more risk averse than <BR>
>the average person. I am simply suggesting that a dysfunctional home <BR>
>life may be a good part of the reason why many PC's act like PC's <BR>
>and not like people.<BR>
<BR>
How curious.  If the PCs are not acting "like people", what are they <BR>
acting like?  Inanimate objects?  Cats?  Giant electric penguins?  Do <BR>
the PCs in your games really not act like people??<BR>
<BR>
>In reality PC's act differently than people because the player knows <BR>
>the PC is not a real person. Thus the PC can be less risk averse <BR>
>(and less lazy) than the player is. The player does not normally <BR>
>risk dying when his character tries some stupid Errol Flynn type <BR>
>stunt thus the PC is more likely to try Errol Flynnery than a 'real' <BR>
>person would.<BR>
<BR>
In my experience, PCs frequently act differently than the average <BR>
person (while still acting like people, thank you) because when an <BR>
account is roleplaying, they don't usually want to roleplay an <BR>
accountant.  Where the heck is the fun in that?  (Unless the <BR>
accountant character has other, more interesting aspects to his <BR>
personality, or the whole point is to play a 'fish out of water'.) <BR>
It's simply more entertaining to play some one who takes risks you <BR>
wouldn't (or the opposite), or behaves in ways you never would - <BR>
they're still people.  Besides, how much playing will you do with a <BR>
character who just wants to stay home and tend his little vegetable <BR>
garden?  (Barring a GM who will arrange for the vegetable garden to <BR>
be destroyed by a small group of maniacs who also torch the PC's <BR>
house, kill his dog, kidnap his fiance, and assault his grandmother. <BR>
If you want to play an accountant, our GM WILL find a way to involve <BR>
him.)<BR>
<BR>
>I was simply trying to offer a game universe reason why many <BR>
>characters are less risk averse and less in contact with their <BR>
>families than many 'real' people are.<BR>
<BR>
While I have known a number of people who have not spoken with <BR>
various relatives for decades, frequently over some small slight, <BR>
real or imagined - yes, we in this reality do tend to be closer to <BR>
our families than many PCs.  BUT.<BR>
<BR>
One reason is distance.  When a character leaves their homeworld to <BR>
join the Marines, become a merchant, seek their fortune, whatever, <BR>
they literally may never get back to their home due to the distances <BR>
involved.  This is probably as accepted a cultural aspect in the <BR>
Imperium as it was during certain periods of our history when people <BR>
immigrated to the Continent, to the colonies, or even 'out West', <BR>
never to return.<BR>
<BR>
Another reason is players.  I have known many players who simply did <BR>
not want to be bothered with generating an entire family or family <BR>
history for their character. It's time consuming, and not everyone <BR>
wants or needs that kind of background for their character.  Or the <BR>
GM doesn't want to deal with that kind of details.  It's not <BR>
necessarily that the character was raised by a family that would make <BR>
the Borgias seem like something out of a Norman Rockwell painting, <BR>
but then again...<BR>
<BR>
I have played and played with PCs who definitely came from <BR>
dysfunctional families, and those who came from very stable <BR>
backgrounds.  Why they're PCs and are out adventuring in the universe <BR>
could be one of a number of reasons.  They have been adrenaline <BR>
junkies, sociopaths, remittance men, merchants, seekers of knowledge, <BR>
and one person I know even successfullly played a serial killer.  I'm <BR>
not sure if the latter's family was dysfunctional or not.  I'll have <BR>
to ask.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:44:59 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: "Portations"<BR>
<BR>
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :<BR>
<BR>
> * One of the reasons I like the conventions is they<BR>
> let me in the same VIP room with the famous . . .<BR>
> er . . . with other, _more_ famous people.<BR>
<BR>
You should come to New Zealand Cons then. _Everyone_ is allowed in the same<BR>
room with the VIP's and we usually go to the bar together. Of course, a<BR>
large con down here has 150 people at it...<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:44:59 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: "Portations"<BR>
<BR>
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :<BR>
<BR>
> * One of the reasons I like the conventions is they<BR>
> let me in the same VIP room with the famous . . .<BR>
> er . . . with other, _more_ famous people.<BR>
<BR>
You should come to New Zealand Cons then. _Everyone_ is allowed in the same<BR>
room with the VIP's and we usually go to the bar together. Of course, a<BR>
large con down here has 150 people at it...<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:42:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [Traveller-Culture] SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail, Traveller-Culture@egroups.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> [Posted to both TML and TravCult; threads welcome both places.]<BR>
<BR>
> My choices:<BR>
><BR>
> (1) Tines, from Vernor Vinge's _A_Fire_Upon_The_Deep_.  A<BR>
> medieval pack-mind society that could be dropped just about<BR>
> anywhere and fit, unchanged. Read the book if you haven't.<BR>
> Interesting alternative: instead of ultrasonic communication<BR>
> between pack members, use telepathy; what are the ramifications<BR>
> if the Imperium discovers this, especially if the telepathy<BR>
> doesn't work with non-Tines?  Once the Tines are contacted and<BR>
> given access to technology, what sort of accommodations are made<BR>
> for their special needs?  What are the ramifications of<BR>
> "full-press contact" between one of the Major Races and the Tines<BR>
> - as contrasted with the accidental contact of two children and a<BR>
> couple of library computers (and later low-bandwidth<BR>
> communication with a very limited group of adults)?<BR>
<BR>
I'd hate to face a Tine running a set of fighters, especially if they<BR>
use telepathy.<BR>
<BR>
Also, just think of the situation if the war in the book had gone the<BR>
other way. Tines designed "to order" would be pretty scary too.<BR>
<BR>
Darkover would be fun, even though it uses a somewhat "different" psi<BR>
model. <BR>
<BR>
For a variant human culture that *can't* join the Imperium, check out<BR>
"Courtship Rite" by Donald Kingsbury. <BR>
<BR>
I think many of Bujold's worlds/cultures would fit into the Traveller<BR>
Universe ok. Though frankly, only Barrayar, Jackson's Whole, Cetaganda,<BR>
Athos, Kline Station and Beta Colony are at all detailed (and the<BR>
amount of detail seems to be in roughly that order).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:02:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Replies to several people on this thread.<BR>
><BR>
> <PLST><BR>
> The problem with this is that an intersection  of  the  beam  and<BR>
> target does not automatically mean the  target  is  damaged  (and<BR>
> this is what we are really interested in).  To do damage the beam<BR>
> must deliver a minimum  amount  of  energy  to  a  point  on  the<BR>
> target's surface.  If the target passes through the beam  quickly<BR>
> enough all you will do is heat up part of the hull slightly.  (If<BR>
> this were not so then the amount of damage inflicted  could  vary<BR>
> depending on the path of the  target  ...  a  curved  path  could<BR>
> result in multiple intersections and therefore multiple hits from<BR>
> a single 'shot'.)<BR>
> </PLST><BR>
><BR>
> This idea of a laser tracking a target seems unlikely to me, much less<BR>
> tracking a particular point on a target. With the difficulty of predicting<BR>
> vector at the ranges being used, I just can't see it.  YMMV, but my view<BR>
> is of lasers sending out brief pulses of energy (say .05 s = 15000 km<BR>
> long).  I'm not certain, but I think canon supports this.  Certainly, the<BR>
> lasers emitted by missiles will be brief in duration at least.  This<BR>
> sort of "shotgun" of laser beams was what I was picturing.<BR>
<BR>
Actual pulse laser pulses are a *lot* shorter than that. Try .000001<BR>
seconds. That's *why* they don't have to track. <BR>
<BR>
And actually, anything between microsecond (or *shorter*!) pulses and<BR>
continuous beam really doesn't buy you anything. You get much bigger<BR>
cooling problems, you need to worry about keeping it on target, and<BR>
things like rolling spread the energy around. <BR>
<BR>
Worse, once the initial part of the pulse has vaporized a chunk of<BR>
hull, the resulting plasma cloud *protects* the hull until it<BR>
dissipates enough for the beam to get thru again. <BR>
<BR>
Thus a series of *very* short pulses, seperated by much longer<BR>
intervals actually works better and is easier on the equipment (it gets<BR>
to cool/recharge between shots). <BR>
<BR>
Also, just for fun, work out the power level that delivers 10 MJ in one<BR>
pulse:<BR>
<BR>
duration	power<BR>
- --------	------<BR>
1 s		10 MW<BR>
1 ms		10 GW<BR>
1 s		10 TW<BR>
1 ns		10 PW<BR>
1 ps		10 EW<BR>
1 fs		10 ZW<BR>
1 as		10 YW<BR>
1 zs		10,000 YW<BR>
1 ys		10,000,000 YW<BR>
<BR>
And a handy list of prefixes:<BR>
<BR>
1e24   Y   yotto<BR>
1e21   Z   zetta<BR>
1e18   E   exa<BR>
1e15   P   peta<BR>
1e12   T   tera<BR>
1e9    G   giga<BR>
1e6    M   mega<BR>
1e3    k   kilo<BR>
1e2    h   hecto<BR>
1e1    da  deka<BR>
1<BR>
1e-1   d   deci<BR>
1e-2   c   centi<BR>
1e-3   m   milli<BR>
1e-6      micro<BR>
1e-9   n   nano<BR>
1e-12  p   pico<BR>
1e-15  f   femto<BR>
1e-18  a   atto<BR>
1e-21  z   zepto<BR>
1e-24  y   yocto<BR>
<BR>
Note that prefixes are *never* combined. So it's 1 Mg, not 1 kkg.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:22:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Moin Charles Collin,<BR>
><BR>
>   you forgot some important points - that make your asumption even more true.<BR>
><BR>
>> Time lag to rounds reaching target:<BR>
>> T = 2 * R (Range in light-seconds, assuming no processing time)<BR>
><BR>
>   The time lag is much longer. This T = 2 * R would mean that the ship<BR>
>   has to fire blind using a passive sensor lock. But the 'canon' traveller<BR>
>   time lag is T=3*R as you need an active pencil beam pointer lock.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. You are thinking that the "lag" is the time it takes the pulse to<BR>
reach the ship, return, and the time that the laser pulse takes to<BR>
return. That's incorrect. <BR>
<BR>
The lag is the time from when the sensor pulse bounces off the target<BR>
until the laser pulse reaches the position the target was when the<BR>
sensor pulse reflected off it. <BR>
<BR>
For example, if the target is 1 light second away:<BR>
<BR>
time<BR>
0	sensor pulse leaves for target<BR>
1 	sensor pulse arrives at target<BR>
2	sensor pulse returns CARRYING INFO ABOUT THE POSITION OF THE<BR>
	TARGET AT TIME HACK 1!<BR>
2	laser is fired<BR>
3	laser strikes target<BR>
<BR>
See. The lag is only 2R.<BR>
<BR>
The time from sending the sensor pulse until the arrival of the laser<BR>
pulse *is* 3R. But that's irrelevant. Because to get a "lock" you have<BR>
to have bounced *several* pulses off of the target. But when you fire<BR>
you are doing so based on information that is only _1R_ old, and the<BR>
laser pulse takes another 1R to get there. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:33:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2635<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> 1.) At 0.5c, the tau factor is still relatively low, so I doubt there would<BR>
> be a great deal of difference between the Newtonian and the Relativistic<BR>
> values; it is almost certainly within the same order of magnitude.<BR>
> 2.) This is going to open up an entirely new can of proverbial worms (good<BR>
> bait, those) as the passage of time within the fighter is also going to slow<BR>
> down.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, if he's *coasting* at .5 c, he sees the *target* as being the<BR>
one who has slowed down. They see *him* as slowed down. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> hurt...it has been way too long since I last took physics.  Hell, when I was<BR>
> taking it, there were still _4_ fundamental forces - the weak bosons hadn't<BR>
> been discovered yet.<BR>
<BR>
Depends on how you define "fundamental". :-)<BR>
<BR>
Electrical \<BR>
            >- Electromagnetic \<BR>
  Magnetic /                    >-- Electro-weak \<BR>
                  Weak Nuclear /                  >--- ???? \<BR>
                                  Strong nuclear /           >- ?????<BR>
                                                    Gravity /<BR>
<BR>
The ??? are "forces" that last I heard are still only conjectured.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:41:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 06/21/00 at 07:49 PM,  Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> said:<BR>
><BR>
>>>>Eris you are one of the very few on the list thats older than I am. I<BR>
>>>>defer to your ancientness.......<BR>
><BR>
>>>You're only as old as you feel! <g><BR>
><BR>
>>FWEEEEP! 5 yard penalty for misquote!<BR>
><BR>
>>The correct quote, assuming you want to induce C&C, is<BR>
><BR>
>>  "You're only as old as who you feel!"<BR>
><BR>
> Ha! Ha! When you get to be my age Jeff, you have to be careful *who* you <BR>
> feel or you'll get Lechery-1 added to your skill list. <g><BR>
<BR>
Only *1*? <eg><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:42:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: "Portations"<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 21-Jun-00 8:07:45 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> Note: when approached with the idea of making their societies<BR>
>>  available to Traveller fans as "portations", all three authors<BR>
>>  responded negatively, citing several quite legitimate concerns.<BR>
><BR>
> Not the least of which is, I suspect, the fact that it could interfere with <BR>
> other IP licensing if they give stuff away.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but it'd be nice if SJG could get the rights for GURPS sourcebooks.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:31:31 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> > Therefore part of the firing solution has to involve locking  the<BR>
> > beam onto a fixed point  on  the  target  and  holding  it  there<BR>
> > (tracking the target movement) for  the  turn's  duration.  Given<BR>
> > the length of a turn in space combat is 1000 seconds you can  see<BR>
> > that the beam tracking issue becomes the dominant factor  and  so<BR>
> > the *overall* size of the target becomes somewhat irrelevant.<BR>
> <BR>
> These are *pulse* lasers. The target doesn't move significantly<BR>
> during the microsecond duration of the pulse, and heating is<BR>
> anything but gradual.<BR>
> <BR>
> Weapons lasers don't *melt* holes. They cause the surface<BR>
> layers of the target to go directly from solid to highly<BR>
> ionized plasma in a duration so short that the energy release<BR>
> is a high order explosive shock. <BR>
<BR>
I was basing  my  assumptions  in  part  on  a  dimly  remembered<BR>
Challenge magazine article (I'm going  to  have  to  dig  it  out<BR>
tonight) discussing TNE lasers, and also on the fact that  in  CT<BR>
and MT there are "pulse" lasers  and  "beam"  lasers  (with  beam<BR>
lasers being more common).<BR>
<BR>
However, I am quite happy to accept that  CT's  tech  assumptions<BR>
are flawed in this respect.  I feel most of the tech  assumptions<BR>
in Traveller are flawed ... I think  99%  of  combat  would  more<BR>
realistically be carried out using det-laser  missiles  (possibly<BR>
with  lasers  for  point  defence).   But  then  it  wouldn't  be<BR>
Traveller any more, it would be 2300AD (or similar).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> That's why things like the "just spin the missiles" argument<BR>
> against SDI lasers was so stupid. The timescales are just too<BR>
> short for that sort of thing.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I was wondering about that.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > With this I agree:  Fighters should  (except  in  CT)  have  much<BR>
> > better agility than battleships.  Thus the battleship  must  rely<BR>
> > on passive defence  (armour  and  capacity  to  take  damage)  to<BR>
> > outlast the harassing fighters.<BR>
> <BR>
> Nope. They have exactly the *same* agility until you reach a size such<BR>
> that it takes *significant* g-forces to spin the ship about it's axis<BR>
> to get the main drive pointed in the appropriate direction <BR>
> for whatever manoeuvre you are performing.<BR>
> <BR>
> "Agility" equals "main drive acceleration".<BR>
> <BR>
> Ability to "dodge" is influenced by both agility and *size*. <BR>
<BR>
I think we have different definitions of "agility"  here.  I  use<BR>
the term "agility" to mean the ability  to  dodge  ...  which  is<BR>
influenced by  main  drive  acceleration,  size,  and  structural<BR>
integrity.  A battleship will not be able to fling  itself  about<BR>
in the same  fashion  as  a  fighter  without  large  amounts  of<BR>
additional structural support (or it'll rip itself apart) ... yet<BR>
the weight of this extra  structural  support  will  reduce  main<BR>
drive  acceleration.   With  "bonded"   hull   materials   *some*<BR>
additional structural support could be  gained  by  dumping  more<BR>
energy into the hull field (if you use the  rules  variant  where<BR>
bonded hulls have power requirements) ... which goes back to  the<BR>
CT idea of agility equating to excess power.  (But I think  there<BR>
should be a limit on how far you can take this.)  So as a rule of<BR>
thumb I stand by my original "Fighters should  have  much  better<BR>
agility than battleships" line.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:11:42 +0100<BR>
From: "N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching wrote:<BR>
> However, it's difficult to design a laser that a fighter can use which<BR>
> delivers much damage beyond 100,000km (or a meson bay that can damage<BR>
> anything with a meson screen at any range)<BR>
<BR>
[CAVEAT: Maybe we're using different design rules, in which case what we<BR>
can achieve will be very different, but]<BR>
<BR>
I have a 20-ton fighter designed under FFS1 rules which carries a spinal<BR>
X-Ray laser with an effective range of about 20 hexes (around 600,000<BR>
km) and which can force a critical hit on any ship under 1000 tonnes<BR>
with less than AV:150 armour. I'm not aware of any published designs of<BR>
that size which exceed AV:150.<BR>
<BR>
I grant you, the fighter is pretty much wrapped around the laser.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.nickb.ndirect.co.uk/tneships/F_Lochab.html<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:02:32 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
> >> A question for the mathematically inclined:  What is a good approximation<BR>
> >> of ship cross-section?  It'll be based on configuration, of course: For a<BR>
> >> cube, the minimum xs is volume^.66. But what is the "average" cross<BR>
> >> section for a cube?  What about 2:1:1 box?  A sphere is easy...but what<BR>
> >> about other shapes? <BR>
> ><BR>
> > But how useful would "average" cross-sections be?  A needle-shaped ship,<BR>
> > for instance, would surely keep either its narrow bow or stern towards its<BR>
> > opponents, whenever possible.<BR>
> <BR>
> In which case it can only run directly towards or away from them. Any<BR>
> dodging *requires* that it expose more of itself, and, in fasct, for<BR>
> maximum efficiency at dodging, it has to be broadside on to the enemy!<BR>
<BR>
I guess I had (incorrectly) assumed that "evasive maneuvers" would involve<BR>
relatively brief bursts of acceleration (provided by the ship's principal<BR>
engine), seperated by periods of "coasting" long enough to warrant<BR>
bringing a minimal cross-section to bear again.  In retrospect, I guess<BR>
this was a pretty stupid assumption for starships with engines capable of<BR>
producing multiple Gs of acceleration for days or weeks. <sheepish grin><BR>
<BR>
                                                              - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:13:34 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Old feelings<BR>
<BR>
Loren writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Speaking of which, I just got my new TX state ID card (not DL but they use <BR>
>the same camera). I look like I'm wanted in seven states! <BR>
<BR>
Hey, 7 out of 50 isn't... come to think of it, it is...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
                "I am a jelly doughnut."<BR>
                        J.F. Kennedy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:47:51 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>You go around a corner wide, just in case someone is waiting right around<BR>
>the corner, and you lead with your rifle (many SWAT team actually mount<BR>
>mirrors on their rifle or smg barrels).  And yes, you use grenades, the 'gun<BR>
>that shoots around corners', so long as you not worried about friend lies.<BR>
>In that case you can use stun grenades.<BR>
<BR>
	In WWII the Germans experimented with a rifle with a curved barrel<BR>
	and mirror sights that could be shot around corners.  It might not be<BR>
	as accurate as direct shooting, but who wants to expose themselves if<BR>
	they can avoid it?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:50:28 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Thing writes:<BR>
>>They also make it possible to "wound" someone in a vaccsuit more<BR>
>>easily. One slice and he's out of the fight until he can get it<BR>
>>patched. Bullet holes tend to be easier to seal.<BR>
>I would agree, also there is no reload time nor extra clips to carry.  You<BR>
>can also thrust with most blades, cutlass included.<BR>
>I've used both broadsword, katana and shanai succesfully in fairly narrow<BR>
>corridors.  If you keep your strokes on a steep amgle you can manage a<BR>
>fairly steep X pattern.<BR>
<BR>
	Would you say that the restriction to certain angles of attacks<BR>
	warrent a -1 DM to hit?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:59:17 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
>>>They also make it possible to "wound" someone in a vaccsuit more<BR>
>>>easily. One slice and he's out of the fight until he can get it<BR>
>>>patched. Bullet holes tend to be easier to seal.<BR>
>>I would agree, also there is no reload time nor extra clips to carry.  You<BR>
>>can also thrust with most blades, cutlass included.<BR>
>According to CT a vacc suit is treated as cloth armor.  I'd like to see<BR>
>someone slash through a threat level III kevlar ballistic vest with a sword.<BR>
>Thrust, maybe with a katana or similar sharply pointed tip.  A thrust will<BR>
>be more likely to be lethal too.<BR>
<BR>
	We are running into the intersection of realistic use of such<BR>
	weapons and game effects.  Cutlass is fairly effective against<BR>
	cloth armour in CT, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
>Bullet holes may be easier to seal, but bullets from modern weapons do<BR>
>damage far out of proportion to their size.  You don't get hydraulic shock<BR>
>from a sword.<BR>
<BR>
	See above.  A cutlass does as much damage as an autopistol in CT,<BR>
	IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
>Out of ammo.  Only if you really limiting what you can carry. I take my TL 7<BR>
>AKSU-74 (nice and short) and strap on a 75 rnd mag.  I can shoot for a<BR>
>really long time before reloading.  And because I'm smart, I brought along a<BR>
>friend to cover my while I'm reloading.<BR>
<BR>
	I agree.  In the great majority of combats that I've run (or played)<BR>
	a 15-round autopistol magazine is plenty.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Time and again I think of 'Raiders of the Lost Ark', and the scene we waited<BR>
>years to see.  Sword versus gun.<BR>
>naturally, just my opinion.<BR>
<BR>
	Loved that scene!  However, the CT rules are relatively kind to HTH<BR>
	weapons, and I cut them some slack because I like using them.  Even<BR>
	so, a snub pistol is generally a better choice in most situations<BR>
	IMTU.  YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:12:39 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
Frank Pitt writes:<BR>
>>Agreed.  I would consider preventing a cutlass-wielding Marine from<BR>
>>getting close enough to a pikeman to attack, if the pike<BR>
>>scored a hit.<BR>
>Classic Traveller's range bands are useful for this, you can say polearms<BR>
>get to attack<BR>
>at "short" and cutlasses only at "close" or something, with the<BR>
>cutlass-wielders only able to close if all the pike-weilders fail their<BR>
>combat rolls.<BR>
<BR>
	This is what I do IF there are enough pikes to effectively block<BR>
	the cutlass-wielder.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Yes, if you think of the "movie" way of firing round a corner, starting with<BR>
>holding your weapon with the barrel pointing up and your back against the<BR>
>wall you're about to look around, swinging round and taking up a firing<BR>
>position in one go, then yes the pistol is likely to be faster.<BR>
>But that method actually exposes you for longer than taking up a firing<BR>
>position first, stepping out one step, firing, and stepping back, and when<BR>
>doing that, the movement is exactly the same, just the stepping.<BR>
<BR>
	Good point.<BR>
<BR>
>There are many situations where a pistol is a _much_ better choice, such as<BR>
>when you're expected to shoot three of the eight people in a room in rapid<BR>
>succession, the pistol can be moved between targets at speed with greater<BR>
>precision (at least I found it that way when comparing using a 9mm Browning<BR>
>with a FN-FAL on a "hostage shoot" )<BR>
<BR>
	I guess that this is part of what I was thinking about in using a<BR>
	weapon as you come around a corner: aquiring a target.<BR>
<BR>
>If all you want to do is kill or disable all the people in the room then<BR>
>"brooms" and grenades are a better choice, and I'd rather have an FN FAL on<BR>
>automatic than a pistol, but would probably prefer something with a higher<BR>
>ROF<BR>
<BR>
	What sort of penalty would you suggest for firing blind around a corner<BR>
	(hold the SMG out and blast away without exposing more than your hands)?<BR>
<BR>
>>>I'd penalise someone carryng a Barret .50 or Boys AT or similar, but then<BR>
>>>you'd be siilly to use one of those on the move.<BR>
>>By "silly" you mean "a player-character," don't you?  :)<BR>
><grin><BR>
>Unless they were wearing powered armour, I'd probably not only give them "to<BR>
>hit" penalties but also injure them from the recoil !<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Nah... like... I brace it against the bulkhead... and... um... when<BR>
	I turn... um... er... how much damage does a gauss rifle do again?<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2639<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 22 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2640<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
Re: AAB LOGO<BR>
RE: shipboard blade weapons<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Mayday and Snapshot in SF<BR>
Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: "Portations"<BR>
Re: Role playing (was RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2639<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: AAB Logo<BR>
Traveller Interactive Fiction<BR>
Re: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Vilani Fonts and Language <BR>
Calling all New Mexican TMLers and Lurkers<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:13:26 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
> >According to CT a vacc suit is treated as cloth armor.  I'd like to see<BR>
> >someone slash through a threat level III kevlar ballistic vest with a sword.<BR>
> >Thrust, maybe with a katana or similar sharply pointed tip.  A thrust will<BR>
> >be more likely to be lethal too.<BR>
> <BR>
> 	We are running into the intersection of realistic use of such<BR>
> 	weapons and game effects.  Cutlass is fairly effective against<BR>
> 	cloth armour in CT, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
The cutlasses which the Imperial Marines use are probably a heck of a lot<BR>
sharper and stronger than those depicted in, say, the Horatio Hornblower<BR>
novels.  Heck, plain old crystaliron dates back to Tech Level 10 or so,<BR>
and the Imperial Marines usually have Tech Level 15 equipment...<BR>
<BR>
                                                            - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:13:26 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
> >According to CT a vacc suit is treated as cloth armor.  I'd like to see<BR>
> >someone slash through a threat level III kevlar ballistic vest with a sword.<BR>
> >Thrust, maybe with a katana or similar sharply pointed tip.  A thrust will<BR>
> >be more likely to be lethal too.<BR>
> <BR>
> 	We are running into the intersection of realistic use of such<BR>
> 	weapons and game effects.  Cutlass is fairly effective against<BR>
> 	cloth armour in CT, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
The cutlasses which the Imperial Marines use are probably a heck of a lot<BR>
sharper and stronger than those depicted in, say, the Horatio Hornblower<BR>
novels.  Heck, plain old crystaliron dates back to Tech Level 10 or so,<BR>
and the Imperial Marines usually have Tech Level 15 equipment...<BR>
<BR>
                                                            - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:21:07 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Like many of the posters, I like the romantic image of Marines boarding a<BR>
starship, trusty cutlass in hand. Also, we need a way to justify the high<BR>
degree of large blade/cutlass skill Marines typically have under CT/MT<BR>
generation. But to do so, we must answer the question: is a cutlass an<BR>
effective weapon to carry in OTU combat?<BR>
<BR>
First, you can definitely use a cutlass in a restricted space. My sensei<BR>
used to always tell us to wrap the sword around you "like a blanket" when<BR>
readying a strike; you don't need that much side to side room. Even a<BR>
broadsword doesn't need that much room on the side, if used by a skilled<BR>
user. The real restriction is ceiling space; if there isn't enough, you can<BR>
only thrust.<BR>
<BR>
Secondly, since the problem originated under CT, let's use that to analyze<BR>
the problem. Remember that under LBB CT, the best armor most people could<BR>
get was cloth (combat armor was "restricted.") Also, no weapon more<BR>
effective than the laser rifle was generally available. So let's compare<BR>
Cutlass and Autorifle:<BR>
<BR>
                        Cutlass                A Rifle<BR>
<BR>
vs Cloth                 -3                        -1<BR>
at Short Rng.        +2                        +0<BR>
<BR>
Total DM                -1                        -1<BR>
<BR>
An autorifle and a cutlass are equivalent at Short (which I'm assuming to be<BR>
the typical shipboard range) under CT! (Obviously, though, an A Rifle has<BR>
autofire and the ability to fire at Medium...but you also have ricochet and<BR>
collateral damage problems.)<BR>
<BR>
Under MT, the question is somewhat more complicated due to the differences<BR>
in the tasks involved, but NB that a cutlass has the same penetration as<BR>
most guns, 3. If you use the two-task HTH system, you will do more damage<BR>
with a cutlass (because the damage task is Easy, generating a greater chance<BR>
of exceptional success than the direct fire task.)<BR>
<BR>
I won't address TNE, since I never played it, or T4, since I don't like the<BR>
combat system.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, you could consider these results to be broken...but at least under the<BR>
original game, there was some sense to be found in Marines carrying<BR>
cutlasses.<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:25:08 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
on 6/22/00 7:59 AM, Ian Ferguson at ian@vax2.concordia.ca wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
> We are running into the intersection of realistic use of such<BR>
> weapons and game effects.  Cutlass is fairly effective against<BR>
> cloth armour in CT, IIRC.<BR>
> <BR>
>> Bullet holes may be easier to seal, but bullets from modern weapons do<BR>
>> damage far out of proportion to their size.  You don't get hydraulic shock<BR>
>> from a sword.<BR>
> <BR>
> See above.  A cutlass does as much damage as an autopistol in CT,<BR>
> IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, a cutlass is more lethal than a pistol in CT<BR>
<BR>
Weapon      Damage      Min     Max     Avg<BR>
<BR>
Cutlass     2D+4        6       16      11<BR>
Broadsword  4D          4       24      14<BR>
Pistol      3D-3        0       15      7,8<BR>
Rifle       3D          3       18      10,11<BR>
<BR>
My pet peeve.  In CT the Cutlass is statistically more lethal than a RIFLE!<BR>
This totally flies in the face of reality.  One only need to look at<BR>
casualty reports from the civil war, Balaklava and WW1 to see how few<BR>
casualties were produced by edged weapons.  And wounds received from same<BR>
were rarely incapacitating.  Compare this to rifle fire.<BR>
<BR>
Oh well.  If one tosses any sense of reality out the window, troops fire<BR>
their rifles only at long range, the toss them aside and whip out their<BR>
broadswords for close in work.  (note: nothing is said about the fact that<BR>
it takes a great deal of training to make someone mildly dangerous with a<BR>
broadsword (or cutlass).  I can train someone to be an adequate rifleman in<BR>
a day.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:32:44 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
<BR>
on 6/22/00 8:21 AM, VonRammen at von_rammen@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Like many of the posters, I like the romantic image of Marines boarding a<BR>
> starship, trusty cutlass in hand. Also, we need a way to justify the high<BR>
> degree of large blade/cutlass skill Marines typically have under CT/MT<BR>
> generation. But to do so, we must answer the question: is a cutlass an<BR>
> effective weapon to carry in OTU combat?<BR>
> <BR>
> First, you can definitely use a cutlass in a restricted space. My sensei<BR>
> used to always tell us to wrap the sword around you "like a blanket" when<BR>
> readying a strike; you don't need that much side to side room. Even a<BR>
> broadsword doesn't need that much room on the side, if used by a skilled<BR>
> user. The real restriction is ceiling space; if there isn't enough, you can<BR>
> only thrust.<BR>
> <BR>
> Secondly, since the problem originated under CT, let's use that to analyze<BR>
> the problem. Remember that under LBB CT, the best armor most people could<BR>
> get was cloth (combat armor was "restricted.") Also, no weapon more<BR>
> effective than the laser rifle was generally available. So let's compare<BR>
> Cutlass and Autorifle:<BR>
> <BR>
> Cutlass                A Rifle<BR>
> <BR>
> vs Cloth                 -3                        -1<BR>
> at Short Rng.        +2                        +0<BR>
> <BR>
> Total DM                -1                        -1<BR>
> <BR>
> An autorifle and a cutlass are equivalent at Short (which I'm assuming to be<BR>
> the typical shipboard range) under CT! (Obviously, though, an A Rifle has<BR>
> autofire and the ability to fire at Medium...but you also have ricochet and<BR>
> collateral damage problems.)<BR>
> <BR>
> Under MT, the question is somewhat more complicated due to the differences<BR>
> in the tasks involved, but NB that a cutlass has the same penetration as<BR>
> most guns, 3. If you use the two-task HTH system, you will do more damage<BR>
> with a cutlass (because the damage task is Easy, generating a greater chance<BR>
> of exceptional success than the direct fire task.)<BR>
> <BR>
> I won't address TNE, since I never played it, or T4, since I don't like the<BR>
> combat system.<BR>
> <BR>
> OTOH, you could consider these results to be broken...but at least under the<BR>
> original game, there was some sense to be found in Marines carrying<BR>
> cutlasses.<BR>
> <BR>
> Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
I suppose my problem is having spent too many years around weapons and<BR>
having some experience with their actual capabilities, and let this<BR>
knowledge color my refereeing.  Blade weapons are just unrealistically<BR>
effective in traveller, especially given the typical skill of the PC.<BR>
<BR>
By the way, thanks for inventing those cool packets of noodles.  Couldn't<BR>
have made it through college without them. 8)<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:36:57 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: AAB LOGO<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/21/00 3:26:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>  The History of the Imperium Working Group (HIWG) had a<BR>
>  newsletter called AAB Proceedings, and I think it had a<BR>
>  logo.  I should be able to find a copy pretty easily in my<BR>
>  stuff.  If you send me your address, I'll be happy to mail<BR>
>  you a copy (or fax if you'd prefer).<BR>
>  <BR>
>  - --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Nope, that's not it. The AAB logo there is the Imperial Starburst with a <BR>
question mark inside which represents something else.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:53:51 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard blade weapons<BR>
<BR>
FWIW, I checked the length of some weapons in LBB1:<BR>
<BR>
	cutlass: 60-90 cm blade (+17 cm?)<BR>
	sword: 70-95 cm blade (+18 cm?)<BR>
	foil: 80 cm blade (17.5 cm?)<BR>
	broadsword: 100-120 cm blade (+32 cm?)<BR>
	halberd: 250 cm<BR>
	spear: 300 cm<BR>
	pike: 300-400 cm<BR>
<BR>
A 75 cm cutlass should be pretty usable in a 150 x 225 cm hallway, but a<BR>
150 cm broadsword is going to be impossible to swing sideways and tricky to<BR>
swing vertically (if it misses the ceiling the butt will be within 75 cm<BR>
(under 30") of the floor, maybe less if on an angle).  Halberds et al will<BR>
be retricted to thrusts.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:59:53<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
At 11:13 AM 6/22/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>The cutlasses which the Imperial Marines use are probably a heck of a lot<BR>
>sharper and stronger than those depicted in, say, the Horatio Hornblower<BR>
>novels.  Heck, plain old crystaliron dates back to Tech Level 10 or so,<BR>
>and the Imperial Marines usually have Tech Level 15 equipment...<BR>
<BR>
GF Spoiler: Sorry guys, but the Marine Force does not use cutlasses in<BR>
combat.  There are those prototype hyperdense cutlasses floating around<BR>
though...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:02:25<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mayday and Snapshot in SF<BR>
<BR>
At 12:00 AM 6/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Or we find a victim.... I mean volunteer some where in the middle. Say,<BR>
San leandro?<BR>
<BR>
The  middle of what?  The Central Valley?  :)<BR>
<BR>
Watch the SF/Traveller list, I am going to be posting a game announcement<BR>
there in a day or so.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:21:33 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
 <BR>
> In which case it can only run directly towards or away from them. Any<BR>
> dodging *requires* that it expose more of itself, and, in fasct, for<BR>
> maximum efficiency at dodging, it has to be broadside on to the enemy!<BR>
<BR>
Hm...actually, I'm not sure that's true.  If we take a 10 meter x 1 meter square spike (weird shape, but easy to calculate)<BR>
If it doesn't dodge, cross section is 1 m^2)<BR>
If it uses 50% acceleration, it needs to be at a 30 degree angle.  Exposed <BR>
cross section is 5.866 M^2, and 5 M^2 is at a 60 degree angle (which substantially improves the effectiveness of armor)<BR>
If it uses 100% acceleration, exposed cross section is 10 M^2.<BR>
<BR>
Since we're dodging in 2d (movement forward/back is irrelevant) dodge efficiency is only 43% at half-acceleration, but the angle effects may be worth it.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, a 10 M^3 sphere has only a 1.34M radius and a cross-sectio of 5.65 M^2.<BR>
<BR>
Now, to be really efficient: design our same 10M spike, but put the thruster plates on the _side_ (with a few pointing back for other manuever), and simply accelerate sideways to dodge; you will need to rotate the vehicle on its axis to dodge, which is hardly difficult.  The result is 5x better than the sphere.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:28:18 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:13 AM 6/22/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
> >The cutlasses which the Imperial Marines use are probably a heck of a lot<BR>
> >sharper and stronger than those depicted in, say, the Horatio Hornblower<BR>
> >novels.  Heck, plain old crystaliron dates back to Tech Level 10 or so,<BR>
> >and the Imperial Marines usually have Tech Level 15 equipment...<BR>
> <BR>
> GF Spoiler: Sorry guys, but the Marine Force does not use cutlasses in<BR>
> combat.  There are those prototype hyperdense cutlasses floating around<BR>
> though...<BR>
<BR>
GF?<BR>
I am suddenly reminded of E. E. "Doc" Smith's "Lensman" series, in which<BR>
the Galactic Patrol's equivalent of the Imperial Marines (mostly natives<BR>
of a hellishly heavy-gravity world) wieldied "space axes" made from some<BR>
kind of esoteric superdense material.  Seriously, though... what *would* a<BR>
non-ceremonial cutlass-like weapon made at Tech Level 15 be capable of?<BR>
<BR>
                                                              - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:50:51<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
At 12:28 PM 6/22/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> GF Spoiler: Sorry guys, but the Marine Force does not use cutlasses in<BR>
>> combat.  There are those prototype hyperdense cutlasses floating around<BR>
>> though...<BR>
><BR>
>GF?<BR>
<BR>
GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces.  Coming soon!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:20:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: "Portations"<BR>
<BR>
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
<BR>
>> * One of the reasons I like the conventions is they<BR>
>> let me in the same VIP room with the famous . . .<BR>
>> er . . . with other, _more_ famous people.<BR>
><BR>
>You should come to New Zealand Cons then. _Everyone_ is allowed in the same<BR>
>room with the VIP's and we usually go to the bar together. Of course, a<BR>
>large con down here has 150 people at it...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I have been to New Zealand, & most large towns have 150 people in them.<BR>
<j/k>  To be honest, the first good con I went to had Patrick Steward at it,<BR>
& they only had about 300 people get there, & he along with the other VIPs,<BR>
were very nice.  It seems that at larger cons they get some real fan-boys,<BR>
but at this one it was more mature & simple.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:21:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Role playing (was RE: Starship quirks)<BR>
<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
<BR>
>Besides, how much playing will you do with a <BR>
>character who just wants to stay home and tend his little vegetable <BR>
>garden?  (Barring a GM who will arrange for the vegetable garden to <BR>
>be destroyed by a small group of maniacs who also torch the PC's <BR>
>house, kill his dog, kidnap his fiance, and assault his <BR>
>grandmother. If you want to play an accountant, our GM WILL find a <BR>
>way to involve him.)<BR>
<BR>
This is real life.  While in Kampala, Uganda I met a British national <BR>
who until recently was living in Rwanda.  When War came to Rwanda the <BR>
rebels killed his wife, burned his house, stole his Land Rover, and <BR>
killed his dog.  Needless to say he was intensely angry.<BR>
<BR>
Why do you want to emulate real life ?  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:26:49 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2639<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In mail [someone] writes:<BR>
> > But how useful would "average" cross-sections be?  A needle-shaped ship,<BR>
> > for instance, would surely keep either its narrow bow or stern towards its<BR>
> > opponents, whenever possible.<BR>
> <BR>
> In which case it can only run directly towards or away from them. Any<BR>
> dodging *requires* that it expose more of itself, and, in fasct, for<BR>
> maximum efficiency at dodging, it has to be broadside on to the enemy!<BR>
<BR>
Leonard, I'm surprised at you. <BR>
<BR>
Who says the main thrust axis has to be the long axis of the needle? <BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:36:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>GF Spoiler: Sorry guys, but the Marine Force does not use cutlasses in<BR>
>combat.  There are those prototype hyperdense cutlasses floating around<BR>
>though...<BR>
<BR>
So I suppose that this settles once and for all the question of GT being<BR>
canon or not...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:43:07 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: AAB Logo<BR>
<BR>
    Some further thoughts that Marc sort of inspired with the Vilani font.<BR>
<BR>
    IIRC, in the travcult discussion about a possible logo for the AAB as to <BR>
what form it might take and when the AAB might have been created, one of the <BR>
things that was brought up was that the three Vilani megacorps might have <BR>
been the founding of the AAB, while I don't necessarily agree, it would fit <BR>
with a logo that just came to mind.<BR>
<BR>
    The logo could take the shape of a triangle, with the letters placed on <BR>
each side and one on the bottom. The points of the triangle would represent <BR>
the three megas. And I think the motto's could go on each side too.<BR>
<BR>
    Another possibililty would be to have the vilani letters for AAB placed <BR>
within each other.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:44:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller Interactive Fiction<BR>
<BR>
I just posted a bit of interactive fiction which is based on Traveller at<BR>
http://www.ksarul.com/traveller/escape/. It's really first draft quality,<BR>
but it may allow you to waste a few minutes at work...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:30:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
<BR>
>Only *1*? <eg><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    It doesn't take long to build, I already have a 12 in it & I am not yet<BR>
30.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:49:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
From: John P. Raynor <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
<BR>
>GF?<BR>
>I am suddenly reminded of E. E. "Doc" Smith's "Lensman" series, in which<BR>
>the Galactic Patrol's equivalent of the Imperial Marines (mostly natives<BR>
>of a hellishly heavy-gravity world) wieldied "space axes" made from some<BR>
>kind of esoteric superdense material.  Seriously, though... what *would* a<BR>
>non-ceremonial cutlass-like weapon made at Tech Level 15 be capable of?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I have a TL-15 Rapier in use IMTU, & it can penitrate into Battle Dress<BR>
if the other person is strong enough or in BD himself.  I have found that<BR>
this does allow my players to have "Magickal" weapons in low TL settings, as<BR>
they can easily shear through low TL armor.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:53:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
<BR>
>Classic Traveller's range bands are useful for this, you can say polearms<BR>
>get to attack<BR>
>at "short" and cutlasses only at "close" or something, with the<BR>
>cutlass-wielders only able to close if all the pike-weilders fail their<BR>
>combat rolls.<BR>
<BR>
    Actually, it is quite easy for infantry to get within the range of a<BR>
pikeman, as a Pike is a weapon designed to fight Cavalry, not other<BR>
infantry, but then YM&IMV.  Though, you might want to come out here to<BR>
Arizona, we do have a group of pikemen.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:15:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
From: Luther Martin <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Douglas Berry wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>GF Spoiler: Sorry guys, but the Marine Force does not use cutlasses in<BR>
>>combat.  There are those prototype hyperdense cutlasses floating around<BR>
>>though...<BR>
><BR>
>So I suppose that this settles once and for all the question of GT being<BR>
>canon or not...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    No, we just know that Doug Berry is not a cannon, we know nothing about<BR>
GT.  <LL shudders after saying that.  But, as Penguin Boy is not around to<BR>
defend himself, someone has to, & LKW can defend himself, just fine.><BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:18:22 -0600<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Fonts and Language <BR>
<BR>
Fellow TMLers:<BR>
<BR>
Just a thought.....<BR>
<BR>
for a Vilani Lexicon, how 'bout using something like say<BR>
Swahili as the base language?  Or some other unusual<BR>
but concentrated vowel based earth language?<BR>
<BR>
Just a thought.......<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:23:50 -0600<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: Calling all New Mexican TMLers and Lurkers<BR>
<BR>
Fellow TMLers, esp those in "the lost state of New Mexico."<BR>
<BR>
I am going through major withdrawal here and need a fix of Traveller<BR>
or any Traveller related gaming.  I am crying from the wilderness<BR>
around Albuquerque, NM, specifically Rio Rancho.<BR>
<BR>
Traveller, I need Traveller.......<BR>
<BR>
Pulleease, I want some Traveller.....<BR>
<BR>
The gang in San Jose can do it, why can't we?<BR>
<BR>
I know you're out there........<BR>
<BR>
Argh,,coff,, sputter,, socorro!<BR>
<BR>
Respond to this email at this address or as below.<BR>
<BR>
holmberg@thuntek.net<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:31:05 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
Guns or blades is a better choice than guns or butter, I<BR>
suppose.  What if someone attacks you with a stick of<BR>
butter?  Well, you should either drop a 16-ton weight on<BR>
his head or release the tiger.  Oh, frozen butter.  That's<BR>
a different story ....<BR>
<BR>
Where was I? Oh, yes, when we were playing Snapshot last<BR>
Saturday, we considered whether to go with "Hollywood<BR>
ammo," that is, nobody ever runs out and you just don't<BR>
worry about it.  We decided that we liked the idea of<BR>
keeping track of ammunition and encumbrance, so we did. <BR>
Still, no one ever ran out of ammunition, even my guy who<BR>
kept firing ineffective snub pistol rounds (HE, then tranq,<BR>
then gas, etc.) at Erick's battle dress trooper.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
"Duelling?  Oons! I'll have none of it, what with their<BR>
cut-and-thrust swords and double-barrelled pistols!"<BR>
<BR>
or words to that effect, from Bob Acre, the reluctant<BR>
duellist in The Rivals by Richard Sheridan.<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:08:47<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
At 10:36 AM 6/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Douglas Berry wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>GF Spoiler: Sorry guys, but the Marine Force does not use cutlasses in<BR>
>>combat.  There are those prototype hyperdense cutlasses floating around<BR>
>>though...<BR>
><BR>
>So I suppose that this settles once and for all the question of GT being<BR>
>canon or not...<BR>
<BR>
No, this settles what I thought about the subject while writing the book.<BR>
<BR>
My reasoning was that the Marines are coming into the ship wearing<BR>
battledress.  You arm to fight yourself.  Having one hand on a cutlass when<BR>
your enemy pops up with a fusion weapon could be very *bad*<BR>
<BR>
The Marines do learn sword drills, and duel among themselves for sport.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2640<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2641</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/22/00 4:21:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 22 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2641<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Traveller Interactive Fiction<BR>
RE: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Water on Mars<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2635<BR>
Re: VIP rooms<BR>
Re: Cutlasses<BR>
Classic Traveller Reprints<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Army Weapons<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:04:06 -0700<BR>
From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
On Thursday, June 22, 2000 7:50 AM<BR>
Ian Ferguson said,<BR>
<BR>
> 	Would you say that the restriction to certain angles of attacks<BR>
> 	warrent a -1 DM to hit?<BR>
<BR>
If the target was parrying I would give the attacker -1 to hit due to the<BR>
more predictable path or the attack.  But if the target isn't actively<BR>
attempting to deflect the blow I would probably say that the restricted<BR>
dodge room would cancel out the negatives.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
Thing under the stairs,<BR>
Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
==================================<BR>
"you can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of<BR>
conversation." -Plato<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:16:04 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Interactive Fiction<BR>
<BR>
Good start Luther! I've always felt IF had a place in Traveller and it's nice<BR>
to see one such effort.<BR>
<BR>
L8r,<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
At 10:44 AM 6/22/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>I just posted a bit of interactive fiction which is based on Traveller at<BR>
><http://www.ksarul.com/traveller/escape/>http://www.ksarul.com/traveller/e<BR>
scape/. It's really first draft quality,<BR>
>but it may allow you to waste a few minutes at work...<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:02:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> My reasoning was that the Marines are coming into the ship wearing<BR>
> battledress.  You arm to fight yourself.  Having one hand on a<BR>
> cutlass when<BR>
> your enemy pops up with a fusion weapon could be very *bad*<BR>
><BR>
> The Marines do learn sword drills, and duel among themselves for sport.<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
And if your fighting foes who aren't so luck as to have battle dress, I'm<BR>
not so sure a cutlass offers and real advantage over a powered punch.  And<BR>
you don't have to carry, draw your armored fist.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:29:31 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Moin Leonard Erickson,<BR>
<BR>
> Thus a series of *very* short pulses, seperated by much longer<BR>
> intervals actually works better and is easier on the equipment<BR>
> (it gets to cool/recharge between shots). <BR>
<BR>
  also a rate of fire between 3 minutes and 18 seconds is more canon<BR>
  in the traveller universe.<BR>
<BR>
> Also, just for fun, work out the power level that delivers 10 MJ in one<BR>
> pulse:<BR>
> <BR>
> duration	power<BR>
> --------	------<BR>
> 1 s		10 MW<BR>
> 1 ms		10 GW<BR>
> 1 s		10 TW<BR>
> 1 ns		10 PW<BR>
> 1 ps		10 EW<BR>
> 1 fs		10 ZW<BR>
> 1 as		10 YW<BR>
> 1 zs		10,000 YW<BR>
> 1 ys		10,000,000 YW<BR>
<BR>
  I think it was the other way round ?<BR>
<BR>
  1 watt of power is 1 joule * 1 second of pulse.<BR>
<BR>
  BTW: FFS simplyfies pulse weapons to 1 second stream weapons.<BR>
<BR>
  The perfect laser would send a solitude - the complete energy within<BR>
  a single wave.<BR>
<BR>
> Nope. You are thinking that the "lag" is the time it takes the pulse to<BR>
> reach the ship, return, and the time that the laser pulse takes to<BR>
> return. That's incorrect. <BR>
  <BR>
  sorry, my bag - but lets extend :<BR>
<BR>
  the first possiblity to score a hit would be 4*R<BR>
<BR>
  - passive sensor detection<BR>
  - active ping<BR>
  - active sensor detection<BR>
  - pulse weapon hit<BR>
<BR>
  given the 0.5s range a capital ship would be dead fish within 2 seconds<BR>
  after silently detected by a passive ems, while a fighter may have<BR>
  survived in 99% of the cases if running evasion at 6G.<BR>
<BR>
  The problem for fighters is that they are only usefull for missile<BR>
  screening and as launch platforms for missles and sensor drones.<BR>
<BR>
  So COAAC doctrine would be :<BR>
<BR>
  Deploy passive sensor drones and fighters for sceening and hit the<BR>
  capital ship with a meson deap mount ;-)<BR>
<BR>
  Common doctrine, if there is no planetary mdm :<BR>
<BR>
  Always remember - You have only 3 shoots - two missiles under each<BR>
  wing and the direct impact  - Hope that they dont hit us - Try to<BR>
  hit the capital ship with a direct fighter impact - Use the ejector<BR>
  seat in the last second.<BR>
  <BR>
  The motto of those fighter squats 'see you - next live' ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:22:22 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>First, you can definitely use a cutlass in a restricted space. My sensei<BR>
>used to always tell us to wrap the sword around you "like a blanket" when<BR>
>readying a strike; you don't need that much side to side room. Even a<BR>
>broadsword doesn't need that much room on the side, if used by a skilled<BR>
>user. The real restriction is ceiling space; if there isn't enough, you can<BR>
>only thrust.<BR>
<BR>
	I imagine that you could use a broadsword with a low ceiling if there<BR>
	was enough room to the side, too.<BR>
<BR>
>Secondly, since the problem originated under CT, let's use that to analyze<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>			Cutlass	A Rifle<BR>
>vs Cloth		-3		-1<BR>
>at Short Rng.	+2		+0<BR>
>Total DM		-1		-1<BR>
>An autorifle and a cutlass are equivalent at Short (which I'm assuming to be<BR>
>the typical shipboard range) under CT! (Obviously, though, an A Rifle has<BR>
>autofire and the ability to fire at Medium...but you also have ricochet and<BR>
>collateral damage problems.)<BR>
<BR>
	What about Close range?  The cutlass is likely even better off.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>OTOH, you could consider these results to be broken...but at least under the<BR>
>original game, there was some sense to be found in Marines carrying<BR>
>cutlasses.<BR>
<BR>
	Also, if they are woried about zero-G fighting and are armed with<BR>
	lasers, these lasers are louzy brwling weapons.  :)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:30:01 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
>>See above.  A cutlass does as much damage as an autopistol in CT,<BR>
>>IIRC.<BR>
>Actually, a cutlass is more lethal than a pistol in CT<BR>
>Weapon      Damage      Min     Max     Avg<BR>
>Cutlass     2D+4        6       16      11<BR>
>Broadsword  4D          4       24      14<BR>
>Pistol      3D-3        0       15      7,8<BR>
>Rifle       3D          3       18      10,11<BR>
<BR>
	I stand corrected (though I use 3D for cutlass, 3D-1 for pistol).<BR>
<BR>
>My pet peeve.  In CT the Cutlass is statistically more lethal than a RIFLE!<BR>
>This totally flies in the face of reality.  One only need to look at<BR>
>casualty reports from the civil war, Balaklava and WW1 to see how few<BR>
>casualties were produced by edged weapons.  And wounds received from same<BR>
>were rarely incapacitating.  Compare this to rifle fire.<BR>
<BR>
	Yup.  Of course, try killing an average character with a single <BR>
	rifle shot.  I think that the range of lethality was 'compressed'<BR>
	to insure that blade weapons did enough damage to notice them,<BR>
	and energy weapons did not do so much damage that the PCs would<BR>
	die every night.<BR>
<BR>
>Oh well.  If one tosses any sense of reality out the window, troops fire<BR>
>their rifles only at long range, the toss them aside and whip out their<BR>
>broadswords for close in work.<BR>
<BR>
	Or a revolver with cutlass.  Then you always have a free hand to<BR>
	hold on with in zero-G.  ;)<BR>
<BR>
>(note: nothing is said about the fact that<BR>
>it takes a great deal of training to make someone mildly dangerous with a<BR>
>broadsword (or cutlass).  I can train someone to be an adequate rifleman in<BR>
>a day.<BR>
<BR>
	For sure.  Early muskets were not an improvement over longbows.<BR>
	MUCH easier to use, however.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:38:55 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
<BR>
<Penguin Boy> (Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com)<BR>
My reasoning was that the Marines are coming into the ship wearing<BR>
battledress.  You arm to fight yourself.  Having one hand on a cutlass when<BR>
your enemy pops up with a fusion weapon could be very *bad*<BR>
<BR>
The Marines do learn sword drills, and duel among themselves for sport.<BR>
</Penguin Boy><BR>
<BR>
Yah. I just wanted to point out that under CT, the cutlass wasn't such a bad<BR>
weapon. It doesn't make sense in light of book 4 or MT's improved armor. Of<BR>
course, Marc "cooked the books" to support the cutlass as an effective<BR>
weapon. I like it, but I'm biased, as my first character (a permutation of<BR>
which I still use on the rare occasions I get to game) was a Marine with<BR>
high cutlass skill.<BR>
<BR>
FWIW, I think *all* combat systems are broken anyway, from D&D's (apparently<BR>
written by people who not only had never been in a fight, but had not every<BR>
even seen one* :) to Rolemaster, which doesn't seem to think taking a whole<BR>
session to resolve a two minute skirmish is wasteful. The various Trav<BR>
versions, IMVHO, have done good jobs being abstract enough to run quickly,<BR>
broad enough to allow a lot of variety, and relatively inoffensive to<BR>
reality.<BR>
<BR>
<J. Raynor> ("John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu>)<BR>
The cutlasses which the Imperial Marines use are probably a heck of a lot<BR>
sharper and stronger than those depicted in, say, the Horatio Hornblower<BR>
novels.  Heck, plain old crystaliron dates back to Tech Level 10 or so,<BR>
and the Imperial Marines usually have Tech Level 15 equipment...<BR>
</ J. Raynor><BR>
<BR>
I'd like to see *something* about high tech blade weapons, but, alas, no<BR>
version of canon has mentioned them. I have no problem being a heretic, but<BR>
I'd like *somebody* to at least quasi-officially address the issue (or you<BR>
might end up breaking the blade combat rules even worse).<BR>
<BR>
<Tod> (Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>)<BR>
I suppose my problem is having spent too many years around weapons and<BR>
having some experience with their actual capabilities, and let this<BR>
knowledge color my refereeing.  Blade weapons are just unrealistically<BR>
effective in traveller, especially given the typical skill of the PC.<BR>
</Tod><BR>
<BR>
Agreed, given the level of training. I only spent a year and a half training<BR>
in aikido sword work (wooden swords, defensive posture) and it was bloody<BR>
hard to pick up. (I was told once that I "didn't know nothing about sword"<BR>
by my teacher, so take whatever I say with one large grain of salt.)**<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, wasn't most armor designed to protect against arrows, not swords? Any<BR>
SCAer's willing to fill in the gaps?<BR>
<BR>
<Tod again><BR>
By the way, thanks for inventing those cool packets of noodles.  Couldn't<BR>
have made it through college without them. 8)<BR>
</Tod><BR>
<BR>
Since I've been posting a little more lately, I'll address that this once:<BR>
I spell my email address with two "m's" because the family name was (von)<BR>
Rammenstein. (The "von" is conjectural, and wasn't used once my<BR>
great-grandfather arrived in NYC, though I've been told it was part of our<BR>
name.)<BR>
<BR>
In 1946, because the name was so long, my grandfather trimmed it down to<BR>
it's present form. Unfortunately, with typically German efficiency, he took<BR>
out the second "m. Worse, my aunts changed the pronounciation from rAHmen to<BR>
rAYmen, so now everyone spells it Raymond when they hear it. (My father held<BR>
out for the old pronounciation until the '60s, when he finally gave in.) I<BR>
have no relation to packets of dried noodles, though for a while I<BR>
considered going to Japan to teach English. No doubt being taught by "Mr.<BR>
Soup" would have gone over great with the students :)<BR>
<BR>
Fred "Miso" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
*Yeah, I know D&D combat evolved from a miniatures system. That was a valid<BR>
excuse for, say, twenty years?***<BR>
**My sensei had somehow acquired an actual katana dating from the 1650s, and<BR>
would occasionally take it out. It LOOKED sharp, like you could cut your<BR>
eyes on it by staring at it.<BR>
**My apologies if it turns out Gary and friends were veterans, or boxers, or<BR>
duellists.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:47:50 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>GF Spoiler: Sorry guys, but the Marine Force does not use <BR>
>cutlasses in combat.  <BR>
<BR>
That doesn't surprise me; they don't in my Traveller<BR>
universe, either, although cutlasses are available on every<BR>
ship that carries Marines for traditional reasons.<BR>
<BR>
It reminds me of Robert E. Heinlein story in which the<BR>
narrator describes his career at the Naval Academy.  He was<BR>
required to pursue a varsity sport.  He said that he found<BR>
the one that matched his lazy temperament, fencing. <BR>
(However, as a college fencer myself, I can't agree that<BR>
it's a sport for lazy people.)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:21:36 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Water on Mars<BR>
<BR>
On 21 Jun 2000, at 22:26, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
Re-write the UWP, they've discovered evidence of water, *liquid* water, on<BR>
the surface of Mars!<BR>
<BR>
but Doug, you realize what actually happened dont you?<BR>
what they found was Marvins new pool<BR>
<BR>
Either that or its time for the 2000 edition of the Martian Surfing <BR>
Championships.<BR>
<BR>
"Wheres the Wave? There was supposed to be a big wave"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu Jun 22 17:18:43 2000<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
Glenn wrote:<BR>
<Where was I? Oh, yes, when we were playing Snapshot last Saturday, we considered whether to go with "Hollywood ammo," that is, nobody ever runs out and you just don't worry about it.  We decided that we liked the idea of keeping track of ammunition and encumbrance, so we did.  Still, no one ever ran out of ammunition, even my guy who kept firing ineffective snub pistol rounds (HE, then tranq, then gas, etc.) at Erick's battle dress trooper.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn><BR>
<BR>
In every game I've played, we have always kept track of the ammo, no matter what the genre.  With the exception of the first release of "Twilight 2000" we have never had anyone run out of ammo in any given fight.  They are usually short, sweet and dirty.  Clips have rarely had to be changed during the fight because clip capacity was large.  T2000 dealt with this by limiting the clip capactity to reflect burst fire and the general fact that in a real firefight, many rounds will go astray.  My players, all of whom were well versed on firearms (Jesse DeGraff being a prime example), basicly complained until I allowed the real magazine capacities.  After that, the characters never ran out of ammo or changed a clip in a firefight.  I also have an article, based on real firefights that occured on the US/Mexico border.  These always included trained law enforcement officers, all happened at less than 15 yards, and the hit ratio was horrible.  Around the 30% mark. <BR>
<BR>
Irishdoh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:25:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 Irishdoh@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn wrote: <Where was I? Oh, yes, when we were playing Snapshot last<BR>
> Saturday, we considered whether to go with "Hollywood ammo," that is,<BR>
> nobody ever runs out and you just don't worry about it.  We decided<BR>
> that we liked the idea of keeping track of ammunition and encumbrance,<BR>
> so we did.  Still, no one ever ran out of ammunition, even my guy who<BR>
> kept firing ineffective snub pistol rounds (HE, then tranq, then gas,<BR>
> etc.) at Erick's battle dress trooper.<BR>
> <BR>
That's not Hollywood ammo.  True Hollywood ammo is inexhaustible up until<BR>
the moment dramatic tension is needed, and then the hero runs out.  That's<BR>
why in movies there are clips with 17, 63, or 3,794 rounds exactly. I<BR>
don't know where they get them, but that's what they have.<BR>
<BR>
laughing is,<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:28:06 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 Irishdoh@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In every game I've played, we have always kept track of the ammo, no<BR>
> matter what the genre.  With the exception of the first release of<BR>
> "Twilight 2000" we have never had anyone run out of ammo in any given<BR>
> fight.  They are usually short, sweet and dirty.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
I learned to shoot as a kid.  Wasn't real good at it, but everyone in my<BR>
family was taught.<BR>
<BR>
Still remember the first time I played a video game that involved shooting<BR>
("Star Wars" I think) and the shock people had because I'd get my target<BR>
in my sights and then shoot it instead of firing constantly... that's when<BR>
I realized most of these people had no idea that ammo is finite.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:37:36 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2635<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> > hurt...it has been way too long since I last took physics.  Hell, when I was<BR>
> > taking it, there were still _4_ fundamental forces - the weak bosons hadn't<BR>
> > been discovered yet.<BR>
> <BR>
> Depends on how you define "fundamental". :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Electrical \<BR>
>             >- Electromagnetic \<BR>
>   Magnetic /                    >-- Electro-weak \<BR>
>                   Weak Nuclear /                  >--- ???? \<BR>
>                                   Strong nuclear /           >- ?????<BR>
>                                                     Gravity /<BR>
> <BR>
> The ??? are "forces" that last I heard are still only conjectured.<BR>
<BR>
Where does the Alderson force fit in? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:20:24 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: VIP rooms<BR>
<BR>
Frank said:<BR>
<BR>
> > * One of the reasons I like the conventions is they<BR>
>  > let me in the same VIP room with the famous . . .<BR>
>  > er . . . with other, _more_ famous people.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  You should come to New Zealand Cons then. _Everyone_ is allowed in the same<BR>
>  room with the VIP's and we usually go to the bar together. Of course, a<BR>
>  large con down here has 150 people at it...<BR>
<BR>
The larger conventions have rooms where VIPs can go to escape the hordes of <BR>
fans --  this is not as important at smaller cons -- and I suspect enzed fans <BR>
are a little more restrained than some 'mercans.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:30:32 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Cutlasses<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 22-Jun-00 2:14:55 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> >The cutlasses which the Imperial Marines use are probably a heck of a lot<BR>
>  >sharper and stronger than those depicted in, say, the Horatio Hornblower<BR>
>  >novels.  Heck, plain old crystaliron dates back to Tech Level 10 or so,<BR>
>  >and the Imperial Marines usually have Tech Level 15 equipment...<BR>
>  <BR>
>  GF Spoiler: Sorry guys, but the Marine Force does not use cutlasses in<BR>
>  combat.  There are those prototype hyperdense cutlasses floating around<BR>
>  though...<BR>
<BR>
Marc says (in response to this same question 20+ years ago) the Marines got <BR>
cutlass as a morale building measure and to make them a little different from <BR>
other characters. He went on to comment that most modern armies train with <BR>
the bayonet despite it's relative uselessness over the last century. <BR>
<BR>
<WWII ANECDOTE><BR>
My dad's cousin told me his DI told his platoon if the bayonet sticks in the <BR>
bone of your target, you should fire the weapon and let the recoil jar the <BR>
blade loose. One of the platoon wiseguys remarked that if he had a round <BR>
left, he wasn't going to be using the bayonet. My cousin in silent in re the <BR>
DI's reaction.<BR>
</WWII ANECDOTE><BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:34:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Classic Traveller Reprints<BR>
<BR>
The pattern for the colored stripe on the CTR books seems to be following<BR>
the ROYGBIV spectrum which we learned on school. But there are more books<BR>
planned than colors available in this scheme. Continuing past the violet end<BR>
of the spectrum, I expect to need special lenses to see the stripes past the<BR>
first few. Now if only the frequency of the books coming out would increase<BR>
like the frequency of the colors in the stripes will...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:49:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Michael Koehne wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>   The perfect laser would send a solitude - the complete energy within<BR>
>   a single wave.<BR>
<BR>
An interesting thought. I have never considered the possibility that ship<BR>
weapons could be based on solitons. I suppose that a weapon of sufficiently<BR>
advanced TL could be produced so that the nonlinear effects compensate for<BR>
any dispersion, so that the weapon will have an extremely long range. This<BR>
is probably a much better handwave than "gravitational lensing" or other<BR>
such stuff.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, I'm not sure of the nonlinear effects used in solitons,<BR>
but they might be a function of the material. I believe that they have been<BR>
used in fiber optics successfully, for example. If the nonlinear effects are<BR>
a function of the material, this would make the idea not very useful in<BR>
space.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:56:38 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
<BR>
>My reasoning was that the Marines are coming into the ship wearing<BR>
>battledress. You arm to fight yourself. Having one hand on a cutlass when<BR>
>your enemy pops up with a fusion weapon could be very *bad*<BR>
 <BR>
But what about those marines who don't use battledress, huh, Doug? What<BR>
about them, huh? Maybe THEY use cutlasses! Huh? Huh? Whatcha think about<BR>
THAT, huh? Not all marines learn battledress, but they ALL learn cutlass!<BR>
Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it!!!<BR>
<BR>
(I suppose I'd better add a ';-)' just to be on the safe side.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."<BR>
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:34:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
>It reminds me of Robert E. Heinlein story in which the<BR>
>narrator describes his career at the Naval Academy.  He was<BR>
>required to pursue a varsity sport.  He said that he found<BR>
>the one that matched his lazy temperament, fencing.<BR>
>(However, as a college fencer myself, I can't agree that<BR>
>it's a sport for lazy people.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    IIRC, it was also Robert E. Heinlein's sport of choice.  But, then again<BR>
compare it to football or rugby.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:03:23 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>My pet peeve.  In CT the Cutlass is statistically more lethal than a RIFLE!<BR>
>This totally flies in the face of reality.  One only need to look at<BR>
>casualty reports from the civil war, Balaklava and WW1 to see how few<BR>
>casualties were produced by edged weapons.  And wounds received from same<BR>
>were rarely incapacitating.<BR>
<BR>
The references that I have read concerning casualty figures from WWI noted<BR>
the relative lack of bayonet casulties, but then went on to note that these<BR>
figures came from the dressing stations and field hospitals.  Most of the<BR>
bayonet injuries were usually fatal and never got as far as the dressing<BR>
station.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:09:56 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
> >The cutlasses which the Imperial Marines use are probably a heck of a lot<BR>
> >sharper and stronger than those depicted in, say, the Horatio Hornblower<BR>
> >novels.  Heck, plain old crystaliron dates back to Tech Level 10 or so,<BR>
> >and the Imperial Marines usually have Tech Level 15 equipment...<BR>
><BR>
> GF Spoiler: Sorry guys, but the Marine Force does not use cutlasses in<BR>
> combat.  There are those prototype hyperdense cutlasses floating around<BR>
> though...<BR>
<BR>
As they say YMMV. Marines will always use hyperdense cutlasses IMTU. Of<BR>
course they limit their use to close quarter combat where fusion guns and<BR>
grenades might do too much collateral damage. And they're not above hacking<BR>
up lightly armed foes (especially morally deficient merchants) with cutlass<BR>
for pure terror value.<BR>
<BR>
I can see it now:<BR>
<BR>
The IN cruiser stands off after knocking out the engines and power. Dim<BR>
emergency lighting lights the corridor outside the airlock. Gravity ripples<BR>
through the space as the emergency batteries kick-in to the plates. The<BR>
ruthless butchers take their positions, armed with snub pistols and lasers,<BR>
waiting for the Navy boarding party.<BR>
<BR>
"We won't be taken," Venarii promised. "It's only a light cruiser. We'll<BR>
take the boarding party and use'em to get passage to the belt."<BR>
<BR>
"Them Navy boys and girls might be a little tougher than a fat merchant."<BR>
<BR>
"Button pushers Gus, all of them. They'll be no match for us.<BR>
<BR>
They hear clanks outside the airlock. Then the tones vibrate through the<BR>
ship. The sound comes from the Bridge com. It wails over their suit radios<BR>
and vibrates through the air of the ship, broadcast by transducers on the<BR>
hull.<BR>
<BR>
"Pipes! Damn it Venarii! Those ain't Sailors, it's ---"<BR>
<BR>
The boom of the shaped charges were deafening through the helmet external<BR>
mikes. The airlock inner door shattered, its shards spitting one of the<BR>
defenders like a spear. The figures garbed in maroon strode through the<BR>
lock. One of the spacemen raised his laser and a blade cleaved the metal and<BR>
plastic weapon into pieces.<BR>
<BR>
Venarii felt the warm wetness seep down his leg as his weapon slipped out of<BR>
his grasp.<BR>
<BR>
That's how I see it anyway.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:17:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Army Weapons<BR>
<BR>
Technology is moving right along. I just looked at the US Army Weapon<BR>
Systems Handbook last<BR>
night(http://www.sarda.army.mil/sard-zs/saal_zs_public_docs/wsh.html), and<BR>
it looks like things have come a long way since I played with this stuff.<BR>
<BR>
If we have come that far in the past 15 years or so, what will the advanced<BR>
TLs bring?<BR>
<BR>
The WSH is fairly big, about 16 MB, so last night I was very happy to have<BR>
that DSL line.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2641<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2642</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 22 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2642<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Cutlasses<BR>
Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Water on Mars<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
The Cutlass Declaration (was: Re: Marine cutlass)<BR>
RE: Fractional c combat<BR>
the maps page<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: the maps page<BR>
Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
Re: Old Feelings<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:56:16<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cutlasses<BR>
<BR>
At 06:30 PM 6/22/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><WWII ANECDOTE><BR>
>My dad's cousin told me his DI told his platoon if the bayonet sticks in the <BR>
>bone of your target, you should fire the weapon and let the recoil jar the <BR>
>blade loose. One of the platoon wiseguys remarked that if he had a round <BR>
>left, he wasn't going to be using the bayonet. My cousin in silent in re the <BR>
>DI's reaction.<BR>
></WWII ANECDOTE><BR>
<BR>
Things never change.  My Drill Sergeants overheard me commenting that the<BR>
Russkis must be awful polite folks, seeing as we always trained with the<BR>
expectation that the Soviet troop was going to be armed exactly as we were;<BR>
bayonet v. bayonet, hand to hand, whatever.<BR>
<BR>
Ever get dropped for 100 pushups?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:19:42<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
<BR>
At 12:56 AM 6/23/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>My reasoning was that the Marines are coming into the ship wearing<BR>
>>battledress. You arm to fight yourself. Having one hand on a cutlass when<BR>
>>your enemy pops up with a fusion weapon could be very *bad*<BR>
> <BR>
>But what about those marines who don't use battledress, huh, Doug? What<BR>
>about them, huh? Maybe THEY use cutlasses! Huh? Huh? Whatcha think about<BR>
>THAT, huh? Not all marines learn battledress, but they ALL learn cutlass!<BR>
>Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it!!!<BR>
<BR>
Hans, don't ever change.  :)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:24:34 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
>>>>><BR>
That's how I see it anyway.<BR>
>>>><BR>
<BR>
You know I have been watching this discussion and it is great and I finally had to put my .02 Cr worth in also.  I have studied a lot of history also and understand the physics involved and I understand that part of the fun is the debate.<BR>
<BR>
But this is how I feel.<BR>
<BR>
As a long time roleplayer of traveller and others I like the cutlass and how it works in traveller.  I mean.....this is traveller man!  And Marines use cutlasses in traveller!  I know it doesn't make sense but sometimes it just shouldn't.  And part of the allure of traveller are things like these.  I could never begin to debate people on this since they are far more knowledgeable.  I just know one thing.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU Marines use cutlasses.<BR>
<BR>
And cutlasses ROCK!<BR>
<BR>
Ok...I am finished now with the unreasonable viewpoint.  Intelligent discussion may continue now.....:)<BR>
<BR>
You guys are the best.  Always love it on this list.<BR>
<BR>
Brian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:36:10 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Water on Mars<BR>
<BR>
>On 21 Jun 2000, at 22:26, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>Re-write the UWP, they've discovered evidence of water, *liquid* water, on<BR>
>the surface of Mars!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Just for accuracy (yeah, I know...) there isn't liquid water<BR>
standing on Mars.  It seeps out and evaporates.....<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:40:15 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
>The references that I have read concerning casualty figures from WWI noted<BR>
>the relative lack of bayonet casulties, but then went on to note that these<BR>
>figures came from the dressing stations and field hospitals.  Most of the<BR>
>bayonet injuries were usually fatal and never got as far as the dressing<BR>
>station.<BR>
<BR>
When you shoot towards an enemy position and someone falls down, you<BR>
probably aren't going to go and see how bad off he is.  When you're at bayonet<BR>
range with someone, you're close enough to make sure.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:48:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>Still remember the first time I played a video game that involved shooting<BR>
>("Star Wars" I think) and the shock people had because I'd get my target<BR>
>in my sights and then shoot it instead of firing constantly... that's when<BR>
>I realized most of these people had no idea that ammo is finite.<BR>
<BR>
	Now the latest crop of games score on ammo consumption...silly me, I was<BR>
taught to double-tap.  Hard habit to break  :)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:50:45 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> In WWII the Germans experimented with a rifle with a curved barrel<BR>
> and mirror sights that could be shot around corners.  It might not be<BR>
> as accurate as direct shooting, but who wants to expose themselves if<BR>
> they can avoid it?<BR>
<BR>
I've seen a barrel attachment for an M3 Submachinegun (the "grease gun")<BR>
that looked like a small, bent rain gutter.  It was for use by tank commanders,<BR>
to allow them to stick the barrel of their short SMG out the turret hatch and<BR>
spray bullets - might be just the thing to get pesky enemy infantry to back off <BR>
so you can use the big machine gun up there.<BR>
<BR>
It would work just fine around corners, of course, but accuracy is not the<BR>
point of this exercise.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:05:27 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: The Cutlass Declaration (was: Re: Marine cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
I humbly offer my Cr 0.02 on this issue, as a reasonable compromise:<BR>
<BR>
1.  As Doug pointed out, Imperial Marine doctrine neither prescribes nor<BR>
suggests the use of cutlasses in combat situations.  Officially,<BR>
cutlasses are not considered combat equipment.<BR>
<BR>
2.  As Doug also pointed out, Imperial Marines _do_ train on the<BR>
cutlass, to enhance both physical conditioning and esprit de corps among<BR>
Imperial Marines.<BR>
<BR>
3.  Since the Imperial Marines do not fit the stereotype of the Soviet<BR>
Army in the 1970s (i.e., automatons unable to deviate from doctrine),<BR>
leaders of individual boarding parties may feel free to employ cutlasses<BR>
if, in their view, the situation so warrants, as long as those parties<BR>
succeed in their missions without undue casualties.  Victory is its own<BR>
justification, while defeat must endure questioning.<BR>
<BR>
4.  Certain Imperial Marine leaders may well have developed a fondness<BR>
for habitual successful use of cutlasses during boarding actions.<BR>
<BR>
5.  Some of these Imperial Marine leaders have been able, at personal<BR>
expense, to supply their Marines with hyperdense cutlasses.<BR>
<BR>
6.  Hyperdense cutlasses, in the hands of battledress-equipped<BR>
personnel, do indeed slice through materials that would shatter ordinary<BR>
cutlasses.<BR>
<BR>
7.  Every time one of these leaders gets in a sufficiently lofty<BR>
position (say, on the staff of a Sector level command), he/she/it<BR>
proposes that the Imperial Marines adopt a hyperdense cutlass as<BR>
standard equipment for boarding actions, citing the reasons mentioned in<BR>
previous posts (less chance of collateral damage, effects on enemy<BR>
morale, etc.).  These proposals have led to several hyperdense cutlass<BR>
prototypes, but no standard fielding of hyperdense cutlasses.<BR>
<BR>
8.  To date, there has been no formal rewriting of doctrine to include<BR>
cutlasses, hyperdense or otherwise, as standard equipment for boarding<BR>
actions (but see point #3 above).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:14:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
It seems that your poor scout pilots are going on a one way ride!<BR>
<BR>
"aim for the planet - the tigress is sure to be there!"<BR>
<BR>
"But we can't turn - we will hit the planet"<BR>
<BR>
"Glory to the <insert fanatical cult here>!"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Let's look at the math of a scout ship striking a planet at .5c:<BR>
<BR>
Again, 1/2*M*v^2.<BR>
<BR>
1/2*(916 metric tons = 1832000000 grams) * 150000000 meters per second ^2 or<BR>
about 1.887876e+34 joules of energy is released. Which is a DV (in FFS<BR>
again) of about 1.258584e+33.<BR>
<BR>
Each 4.2e+9 joules is about a megaton. Which means that the 1st scoutship<BR>
that strikes a planet at .5c will have the impact of a<BR>
4,494,942,857,142,857,142,857,142 megaton warhead.<BR>
<BR>
Let's look at this some more:<BR>
<BR>
The KT impact was _only_  about 10e+8 megatons (The KT impact was the impact<BR>
that wiped out the big lizards See:<BR>
http://gdcinfo.agg.emr.ca/toc.html?/crater/paper/cratering_e.html for some<BR>
intresting reading on craters and stuff). We have just done the same as many<BR>
trillion of those in one small place. If the planet is not scattered to the<BR>
four winds, there will be nary a soul alive on it to talk about the pretty<BR>
lights just before everything went really really _really_ dark.<BR>
<BR>
IMHO the planet will not stop the scout. We will have a small hole on one<BR>
side, and a really large messy hole on the other (what is the blowthru level<BR>
of a planet anyways?)<BR>
<BR>
Now, as always YMMV. And, peter, feel free to do what ever you wish, in what<BR>
ever games you accually run - it just is that the math does not support your<BR>
side.<BR>
<BR>
All the tigress has to do is move out of the way by a few light seconds and<BR>
you will never hit her. If she stays close to the planet, you have destroyed<BR>
that which you wished save from the evil Imperials blockade.<BR>
<BR>
Jump (in cannon) is never an offensive tool - it is a defensive tool and a<BR>
motive tool. When you are pummeled, you jump and pray a lot. When you need<BR>
to go somewhere you jump. A week is just too long for you to predict where<BR>
your target is going to be.<BR>
<BR>
You can argue philophsy, but math is math. We know some constants (how heavy<BR>
a thing is, how fast it is going, how much it can accelerate and alter it's<BR>
vector, how much damage it is going to do when it blows thru the atmosphere,<BR>
and probally crust, of the planet it strikes.)<BR>
<BR>
If traveller were Star Trek, this would all be moot, and we would use<BR>
hydrospanners and monologs to fix all our problems But (thank god) this is<BR>
traveller!<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Peter Newman<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 11:51 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Ok, so we are going to jump now -<BR>
<BR>
> problem #1 - Jump is not an exact science in OTU. You cannot predict<BR>
exactly<BR>
> where you will emerge from it - you have a pretty good idea.<BR>
<BR>
Use the future location of the planet as your target. Since<BR>
the Tigress is blockading your planet than you should be able<BR>
to attack it. if not than maybe the next ship will, you do have<BR>
1,000 Scout ships in this example.<BR>
<BR>
If the Tigress leaves than you have won anyway.<BR>
<BR>
> Problem #2 - You are going so bloody fast that if the tigress moves a few<BR>
> light seconds out of your path you are not going to be able to change your<BR>
> vector to intercept.<BR>
><BR>
> Problem #2.5 - Combine #1 and #2 - you drop out of jump 10 LS coreward of<BR>
> your target. Woops - you just missed.<BR>
<BR>
In MT the distance from your target that you appear depends<BR>
on the effectiveness of your Astrogation skill roll<BR>
<BR>
> Problem #3 - what if the tigress just sits in the 100d zone - heck what<BR>
> about orbiting the planet? you cannot turn at .5c - lil scout ship screams<BR>
> past tigress guns^h^h^h^h gun ablazing and then, in about a blink of an<BR>
eye,<BR>
> smack - no planet. But - hey, the tigress will be destroyed  by chunks of<BR>
> the planet that you just hit like a SAPHE round.<BR>
<BR>
In the situation I mentioned the Tigress was blockading the<BR>
planet.<BR>
<BR>
Moreover given the absence of planetary destruction (except by<BR>
the Ancients) in the canon Traveller universe than it seems to<BR>
me that it must be more difficult than it seems from back here<BR>
at TL 8.<BR>
<BR>
> Problem #4 - when you jump in system with a .5c delta v - how are you<BR>
going<BR>
> to know where the target is? Your tactical intelligence is at least a week<BR>
> (if not more) old. A tigress (even a non-C one) can move quite a bit in<BR>
two<BR>
> weeks (one week to gain tactical intelligence, one week for you to jump in<BR>
> system).<BR>
<BR>
If the Tigress leaves the area of the planet than you've met<BR>
your goals anyway.<BR>
<BR>
> Problem #5 - On your second pass, I would really like to see the predict<BR>
> program that will be able to tell you where a target will be in a week -<BR>
> after all - once you hit the button for that thar jump drive, it's wait<BR>
and<BR>
> see time.<BR>
<BR>
You simply aim for the planets future location. if the Tigress<BR>
is not somewhere nearby than you've won anyway.<BR>
<BR>
> Problem #6 - Easy defense. Seed the jump points with hundreds of thousands<BR>
> of 1 gram BB's (lead should work fine - and they will double as sinkers<BR>
for<BR>
> you fishermen). Each BB that smacked into your scout ship would do:<BR>
> 1/2*M*v^2 or, 1/2* 1 grams * 150000000 meters per second ^2 or about<BR>
> 11,250,000,000 Mega joules of damage, or about a pen of 14,000,000 in FFS.<BR>
<BR>
The Tigress does not know where you will show up. Your Scout<BR>
ship is small. How many 1 gram BB's will it take to mine that<BR>
much space? How many 1 gram BB'S can the Tigress's sub craft<BR>
deploy at what speed?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:47:36 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: the maps page<BR>
<BR>
is back, and huger than ever.<BR>
www.geocities.com/ac_jackson/traveller/map.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:48:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
IIRC a study done that showed in vietnam there were on the order of 10,000<BR>
rounds to one casulity expended.<BR>
<BR>
IMHO - ammo can run out quick when you are under stress, trying not to get<BR>
hit, and fireing at people who use cover (usally all happinging at once). I<BR>
ran a cool GT fire fight in a werehouse - 4 guys each side, one SMG 2<BR>
shotguns and a Laser Carbine each side (with autopistols all around). 3 of<BR>
the shotguns ran out (and one accually reloaded the damn thing) and one of<BR>
the SMG's ran out. Our findings were that weapons w/o recoil were very much<BR>
more effective - Lasercarbineguy blew away 3 baddys.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 5:19 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Glenn wrote:<BR>
<Where was I? Oh, yes, when we were playing Snapshot last Saturday, we<BR>
considered whether to go with "Hollywood ammo," that is, nobody ever runs<BR>
out and you just don't worry about it.  We decided that we liked the idea of<BR>
keeping track of ammunition and encumbrance, so we did.  Still, no one ever<BR>
ran out of ammunition, even my guy who kept firing ineffective snub pistol<BR>
rounds (HE, then tranq, then gas, etc.) at Erick's battle dress trooper.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn><BR>
<BR>
In every game I've played, we have always kept track of the ammo, no matter<BR>
what the genre.  With the exception of the first release of "Twilight 2000"<BR>
we have never had anyone run out of ammo in any given fight.  They are<BR>
usually short, sweet and dirty.  Clips have rarely had to be changed during<BR>
the fight because clip capacity was large.  T2000 dealt with this by<BR>
limiting the clip capactity to reflect burst fire and the general fact that<BR>
in a real firefight, many rounds will go astray.  My players, all of whom<BR>
were well versed on firearms (Jesse DeGraff being a prime example), basicly<BR>
complained until I allowed the real magazine capacities.  After that, the<BR>
characters never ran out of ammo or changed a clip in a firefight.  I also<BR>
have an article, based on real firefights that occured on the US/Mexico<BR>
border.  These always included trained law enforcement officers, all<BR>
happened at less than 15 yards, and the hit ratio was horrible.  Around the<BR>
30% mark.<BR>
<BR>
Irishdoh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:52:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: the maps page<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> is back, and huger than ever.<BR>
> www.geocities.com/ac_jackson/traveller/map.html<BR>
<BR>
Very interesting. The economic data is particularly interesting. I would be<BR>
very interested in seeing a map of the Imperium which is color coded in some<BR>
way to indicate the general economic well-being of worlds, so that you can<BR>
tell at a glance which ones are rich, poor, etc, as well as see any patterns<BR>
in economics.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:03:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> Ok, so we are going to jump now -<BR>
><BR>
>> problem #1 - Jump is not an exact science in OTU. You cannot predict<BR>
>> exactly where you will emerge from it - you have a pretty good idea.<BR>
><BR>
> Use the future location of the planet as your target. Since<BR>
> the Tigress is blockading your planet than you should be able<BR>
> to attack it. if not than maybe the next ship will, you do have<BR>
> 1,000 Scout ships in this example.<BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that jump *duration* varies by hours. And during those<BR>
hours the planet moves. Moves a *lot*.<BR>
<BR>
> In the situation I mentioned the Tigress was blockading the <BR>
> planet.<BR>
><BR>
> Moreover given the absence of planetary destruction (except by<BR>
> the Ancients) in the canon Traveller universe than it seems to<BR>
> me that it must be more difficult than it seems from back here<BR>
> at TL 8.<BR>
<BR>
And the *only* way to prevent that is by making near c velocities<BR>
difficult or impossible to attain. Because if they *aren't*, then<BR>
there's nothing to stop you from doing it.<BR>
<BR>
>> Problem #5 - On your second pass, I would really like to see the predict<BR>
>> program that will be able to tell you where a target will be in a week -<BR>
>> after all - once you hit the button for that thar jump drive, it's wait and<BR>
>> see time.<BR>
><BR>
> You simply aim for the planets future location. if the Tigress <BR>
> is not somewhere nearby than you've won anyway.<BR>
<BR>
At .5 c you need something a *lot* better than "somewhere nearby" to be<BR>
able to hit the target. Remember, you can't significantly change your<BR>
course *because* you are moving so fast. <BR>
<BR>
>> Problem #6 - Easy defense. Seed the jump points with hundreds of thousands<BR>
>> of 1 gram BB's (lead should work fine - and they will double as sinkers for<BR>
>> you fishermen). Each BB that smacked into your scout ship would do:<BR>
>> 1/2*M*v^2 or, 1/2* 1 grams * 150000000 meters per second ^2 or about<BR>
>> 11,250,000,000 Mega joules of damage, or about a pen of 14,000,000 in FFS.<BR>
><BR>
> The Tigress does not know where you will show up. Your Scout<BR>
> ship is small. How many 1 gram BB's will it take to mine that<BR>
> much space? How many 1 gram BB'S can the Tigress's sub craft<BR>
> deploy at what speed?<BR>
<BR>
Let's say that your ship has a cross section area of 10 square meters<BR>
in the direction it is travelling. You need to travel from the 100<BR>
diameter limit, on side to the 100 diameter limit on the other side of<BR>
the planet. <BR>
<BR>
Let's call the *average* path length 100 diameters. <BR>
<BR>
For an earth sized world, that's 1.4e9 meters. Times 10 square meters =<BR>
14e9 m^3. That's the volume "swept" by your ship on a given pass.<BR>
<BR>
A quick calc says that it'll take about 100e15 BBs to be "certain" that<BR>
you'd hit one. That's 100e9 tonnes of BBs. If we go for 1 mg "dust"<BR>
that drops it to 100e6 tonnes of dust. But the pen drops to "only"<BR>
14,000. <BR>
<BR>
Drop the weight to microgram, and it takes 100e3 tonnes. And the pen is<BR>
only 14. Slight detail. They don't *have* to bring it. Because that's<BR>
likely about what the *natural* occurence of particles that size is.<BR>
Hell, particles that size may be *more* common. <BR>
<BR>
See, that's the problem, it's not safe to move at those velocities in<BR>
*interstellar space*. Gas and dust as *far* thicker inside solar<BR>
systems *especially* near planets. So it's even *less safe* to try it<BR>
there. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:00:34 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Old Feelings<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 09:18 PM 6/21/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Speaking of which, I just got my new TX state ID card (not DL but they use <BR>
>>the same camera). I look like I'm wanted in seven states! <BR>
><BR>
> Feh.  If we ever hook up, I'll show you the DL photo that was taken the day<BR>
> before I had my first seizure and subsequent cancer diagnosis.  We call it<BR>
> the "Dachau Driver's Licence" photo.<BR>
<BR>
I recall a friend's license photo. We all took one look and said "Uncle<BR>
Fidel, where's your cigar?" <BR>
<BR>
> -- <BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
> Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:11:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Micheal, when you send a reply both direct *and* to the list, would you<BR>
PLEASE mark it so that I will *know* that it went both places.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Also, just for fun, work out the power level that delivers 10 MJ in one<BR>
>> pulse:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> duration      power<BR>
>> --------      ------<BR>
>> 1 s           10 MW<BR>
>> 1 ms          10 GW<BR>
>> 1 s          10 TW<BR>
>> 1 ns          10 PW<BR>
>> 1 ps          10 EW<BR>
>> 1 fs          10 ZW<BR>
>> 1 as          10 YW<BR>
>> 1 zs          10,000 YW<BR>
>> 1 ys          10,000,000 YW<BR>
><BR>
>   I think it was the other way round ?<BR>
><BR>
>   1 watt of power is 1 joule * 1 second of pulse.<BR>
<BR>
You've got it backwards. E=P*T. <BR>
<BR>
So 10 MW for 1 sec gives a 10 MJ pulse. But to get a 10 MJ pulse that's<BR>
only one *milli*second long, you need a thousand times the power. 10 GW<BR>
for 1 ms = 1O MJ. And so on. <BR>
<BR>
In short, for the same *energy* in a shorter pulse, the *power* level<BR>
has to go up in direct proportion to the shortness of the pulse.<BR>
<BR>
1 as * 10 YW = 10 MJ<BR>
<BR>
>   The perfect laser would send a solitude - the complete energy within<BR>
>   a single wave.<BR>
<BR>
That's "soliton" in English.<BR>
<BR>
>> Nope. You are thinking that the "lag" is the time it takes the pulse to<BR>
>> reach the ship, return, and the time that the laser pulse takes to<BR>
>> return. That's incorrect. <BR>
>   <BR>
>   sorry, my bag - but lets extend :<BR>
><BR>
>   the first possiblity to score a hit would be 4*R<BR>
><BR>
>   - passive sensor detection<BR>
>   - active ping<BR>
>   - active sensor detection<BR>
>   - pulse weapon hit<BR>
><BR>
>   given the 0.5s range a capital ship would be dead fish within 2 seconds<BR>
>   after silently detected by a passive ems, while a fighter may have<BR>
>   survived in 99% of the cases if running evasion at 6G.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. Because the *aiming point* is determined based on the most<BR>
recently returned *echo*, *not* on the initial passive return.<BR>
<BR>
The active pulse bounces off the fighter, is received at 1R, and the<BR>
laser pulse arrives at 2R.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, it'd take 4R from initial appearance until laser pulse arrives.<BR>
But the accuracy* is only 2R lagged, because it's based on the MOST<BR>
RECENT pulse received by the ship, not on the *initial* detection.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:21:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> > I was thinking more of a ship jumping in with a relatively<BR>
>> > high velocity firing at its target and jumping out rather<BR>
>> > than making another normal space pass.<BR>
><BR>
>> You can't jump in that accurately. Remember, the uncertainty in jump<BR>
>> exit is *hours*. Ships move a long ways in that much time.<BR>
><BR>
> The Tigress is orbiting and blockading the planet. Simply<BR>
> set a spot near the planets future location as your destination.<BR>
> In MT the distance you appear from your target depends on<BR>
> how well you make your Astrogation roll. Since jump duration<BR>
> is highly variable but this does not affect how far away from<BR>
> your target your ship appears it seems likely to me that when<BR>
> you jump you are targeting not an exact location but rather<BR>
> a location relative to the planets gravity well.<BR>
><BR>
> Otherwise if you made a six day jump than you would appear <BR>
> where the planet would be in a day and if you made an eight<BR>
> day jump you would appear where the planet was a day ago. Since <BR>
> this is not how jumps work in Traveller than it seems to me<BR>
> that the Astogator's task is to target a gravinometric location<BR>
> not a spatial one.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but the rules actually don't say one way or the other. That may<BR>
not be the way *you* play it, but frankly, playing it any other way<BR>
makes *less* sense. <BR>
<BR>
In a day Earth moves about 2.6 million km. Call it 370 diameters. <BR>
<BR>
That's *not* all that far out of the way.<BR>
<BR>
And where did you get the idea that this "gravimetric" location isn't<BR>
moving along with the planet?<BR>
<BR>
> Your mileage may vary but to me this is very strongly implied<BR>
> by the canon rules on jumping. Another possible explanation<BR>
> would be that when you jump you must first chart a 'jump<BR>
> exit funnel' such that at time X your target Planet Y is near<BR>
> these coordinates.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, you jump for where the planet will be if your jump takes the<BR>
"average" time. At worst, you've added some hours to the time it takes<BR>
you to reach orbit. <BR>
<BR>
>> Natural dust *will* hit you. That's the problem. At .5 c a milligram<BR>
>> dust mote delivers the energy equivalent of 5 tonnes of TNT (6 once you<BR>
>> add in the relativity corrections).<BR>
>> Such collisions will be *frequent* if you are within 100 diameters of a<BR>
>> planet. Hell, collisions with larger objects are possible.<BR>
><BR>
> How many seconds or minutes will there be between said<BR>
> collisions if this solar system has a dust density similar<BR>
> to our Solar systems?<BR>
<BR>
I don't have any hard figures handy. and it depends on *where* you are<BR>
in the system. Densities are higher in the inner system, *much* higher<BR>
near planets. And also higher in places like the trojan points of<BR>
various bodies.<BR>
<BR>
Let's say it's 1 per km^3. My previous post gives 14 km^3 as the space<BR>
you'd sweep out on a path 100 earth diameters long (assuming a mere 10<BR>
square meter cross-section for your ship).<BR>
<BR>
So there'd be 14 impacts during that sweep. It takes about 4.7 seconds<BR>
to traverse that distance at .5 c. It works out to 3 such impacts per<BR>
*second*. <BR>
<BR>
Sounds kinda nasty to me...<BR>
<BR>
Also, you'll be dead from radiation anyway. <BR>
<BR>
The solar wind has 1e6 to 1e9 particles per cubic meter. So that means<BR>
you'll be intercepting 14e15 to 14e18 of them on a "sweep", or 3e15 to<BR>
3e18 particles per second. Which works to a flux density of 3e14 to<BR>
3e17 particles per square meter. I think that's *way* above what your<BR>
hull can shield against. <BR>
<BR>
Anybody have the required formula for .5 c protons?<BR>
<BR>
>> Not possible. You can't time jumps that accurately.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes you can in MT. The MT rules permit ships that are<BR>
> part of the same fleet to emerge from jump at times that<BR>
> are quite close to one another.<BR>
<BR>
But you aren't *jumping* as a fleet, you are jumping independently!<BR>
<BR>
> Even if you don't use this rule if you start with a thousand<BR>
> ships that all jump around the same time (and are in good<BR>
> condition) than 970 of these ships will emerge from jump<BR>
> space six to eight days later near their target. 970 ships/<BR>
> 48 hours equals about 20 ships per hour. My statement of 1 per<BR>
> hour was quite conservative. i was not saying that any<BR>
> specific ship would come out of jump at any specific time I was<BR>
> speaking statistically.<BR>
<BR>
And some of those ships are going to hit the planet or its atmosphere.<BR>
You'll be more of a danger to the planet than the enemy is!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2642<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 23 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2643<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2639<BR>
We seem to be stuck in the past.....<BR>
Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
Re: Cutlasses<BR>
Killing up close (wasMarine Cutlass)<BR>
Re: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Cutlasses<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: The Cutlass Declaration (was: Re: Marine cutlass)<BR>
Re: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:45:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/21/00 9:40 PM, Thing at gduke@telebyte.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> They also make it possible to "wound" someone in a vaccsuit more<BR>
>>> easily. One slice and he's out of the fight until he can get it<BR>
>>> patched. Bullet holes tend to be easier to seal.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I would agree, also there is no reload time nor extra clips to carry.  You<BR>
>> can also thrust with most blades, cutlass included.<BR>
>> <BR>
> According to CT a vacc suit is treated as cloth armor.  I'd like to see<BR>
> someone slash through a threat level III kevlar ballistic vest with a sword.<BR>
> Thrust, maybe with a katana or similar sharply pointed tip.  A thrust will<BR>
> be more likely to be lethal too.<BR>
<BR>
Kevlar doesn't stop edged weapons. There was a recent case in the news<BR>
about some idiot who got severely injured by asking a buddy to try<BR>
stabbing him while he was wearing his kevlar vest. <BR>
<BR>
Kevlar is hard to *break*. High tensile strength. That's how it stops<BR>
bullets, as they have to expend a lot of energy breaking or displacing<BR>
fibers. <BR>
<BR>
But kevlar is *easy* to cut. About the same as nylon...<BR>
<BR>
A slash with a sharp edge *will* lay open a kevlar vest or a vaccsuit. <BR>
<BR>
> Bullet holes may be easier to seal, but bullets from modern weapons do<BR>
> damage far out of proportion to their size.  You don't get hydraulic shock<BR>
> from a sword.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, you don't get it from bullets either. At least not according<BR>
to the research I've read about. <BR>
<BR>
> I'm not worried about ricochets, because I'm using highly frangible<BR>
> ammunition.<BR>
<BR>
You still have to worry about *misses*.<BR>
<BR>
> Heck, this stuff might not even pierce your vacc suit, just<BR>
> drive the fabric 5 or 6 inches into you chest.  Anything important in there?<BR>
<BR>
If it's equivalent to cloth armour, it either won't let you stretch it<BR>
that far, or it'll break from the attempt. There's no middle ground.<BR>
<BR>
> If swords and such were really all that useful in close combat, troops would<BR>
> use them.  They don't.<BR>
<BR>
That's becauser they take a lot of traiuning, and most modern combat<BR>
isn't fought at ranges where they are useful.<BR>
<BR>
I'm a *far* better shot than I am with a sword. Guess which I've had<BR>
more practice with?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:26:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ship Cross-Sections<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I guess I had (incorrectly) assumed that "evasive maneuvers" would involve<BR>
> relatively brief bursts of acceleration (provided by the ship's principal<BR>
> engine), seperated by periods of "coasting" long enough to warrant<BR>
> bringing a minimal cross-section to bear again.  In retrospect, I guess<BR>
> this was a pretty stupid assumption for starships with engines capable of<BR>
> producing multiple Gs of acceleration for days or weeks. <sheepish grin><BR>
<BR>
More to the point, with lightspeed weapons & sensors, and ranges<BR>
of only a few light seconds, it's a good way to get killed. Maintain<BR>
the same course for more than a second or so, and you get nailed.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:28:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2639<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> In mail [someone] writes:<BR>
>>> But how useful would "average" cross-sections be?  A needle-shaped<BR>
>>> ship, for instance, would surely keep either its narrow bow or<BR>
>>> stern towards its opponents, whenever possible.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> In which case it can only run directly towards or away from them. Any<BR>
>> dodging *requires* that it expose more of itself, and, in fasct, for<BR>
>> maximum efficiency at dodging, it has to be broadside on to the enemy!<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard, I'm surprised at you. <BR>
><BR>
> Who says the main thrust axis has to be the long axis of the needle? <BR>
<BR>
Because of his use of "bow" and "stern" to describe the ends. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:51:34 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: We seem to be stuck in the past.....<BR>
<BR>
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know when the TML fiscal year<BR>
ends? It's almost half way through the year 2000, and the digests<BR>
are still stuck on volume 1999. Or does the listserver have a Y2K<BR>
problem I don't know about? :)<BR>
<BR>
OBTrav: Y1K for the 3I happened towards the end of the Solomani Rim<BR>
War. While it seems unlikely on the surface that programmers would<BR>
make the same mistake twice, it is never safe to underestimate the<BR>
human capacity for stupidity or forgetfulness. As both the Imperium<BR>
and the Solomani both had a lot on their minds at this time, a few<BR>
"administrative shortcuts" could have slipped through the cracks.<BR>
Since AI is rare, they might not have been corrected automatically.<BR>
Has anyone played a Traveller scenario where a Y1K bug was a factor?<BR>
How about a Y1.1K bug from a kluged patch that never got normalized?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |    Weird Al enters the black rescuer and the     |<BR>
              |              ancient helmet. FNORD!              |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:34:35 -0500<BR>
From: "Todd Moody" <talon@skyenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
The Foundation Series would translate well I think.  I actually developed<BR>
the HG tables for a gravitic drive back in the day.  It was a Great Big<BR>
Handwave, any ideas for a gravitic drive?<BR>
<BR>
Todd Moody<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/kardaen/traveller/<BR>
kardaen@yahoo.com<BR>
ICQ#75261608<BR>
"Mankind is a catalyzing enzyme for the transition from a carbon-based to a<BR>
silicon based intelligence."<BR>
    -Bricogne<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>;<BR>
Traveller-Culture@onelist.com <Traveller-Culture@onelist.com><BR>
Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 7:04 PM<BR>
Subject: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>[Posted to both TML and TravCult; threads welcome both places.]<BR>
><BR>
>Traveller has always struck me as being the game that's most open<BR>
>to having societies grafted onto it from Your Favorite<BR>
>SF/Fantasy.  That's not to say that _every_ Favorite Society can<BR>
>be grafted on to Traveller (muttering "Xanth" as he holds a cross<BR>
>or other religious symbol/amulet out at arms length), but many<BR>
>_can_.<BR>
><BR>
>Now, ignoring for the moment restrictions that the authors may<BR>
>have put into place, What societies would you like to see grafted<BR>
>into Traveller, where would you put them, and how would you<BR>
>explain their existence in the Travellerverse?  Note that for<BR>
>purposes of discussion, we must assume a generally canon-<BR>
>compatible Travellerverse (e.g., if the nature of a society is<BR>
>fundamentally based on instantaneous interstellar communication<BR>
>or stutterwarp travel, it doesn't fit).<BR>
><BR>
>My choices:<BR>
><BR>
>(1) Tines, from Vernor Vinge's _A_Fire_Upon_The_Deep_.  A<BR>
>medieval pack-mind society that could be dropped just about<BR>
>anywhere and fit, unchanged. Read the book if you haven't.<BR>
>Interesting alternative: instead of ultrasonic communication<BR>
>between pack members, use telepathy; what are the ramifications<BR>
>if the Imperium discovers this, especially if the telepathy<BR>
>doesn't work with non-Tines?  Once the Tines are contacted and<BR>
>given access to technology, what sort of accommodations are made<BR>
>for their special needs?  What are the ramifications of<BR>
>"full-press contact" between one of the Major Races and the Tines<BR>
>- as contrasted with the accidental contact of two children and a<BR>
>couple of library computers (and later low-bandwidth<BR>
>communication with a very limited group of adults)?<BR>
><BR>
>(2) Sime~Gen, by Jacqueline Lichtenberg and Jean Lorrah (8<BR>
>novels, professionally) and quite a few good writers as fans<BR>
>(fair number of novels and short stories, non-professionally).<BR>
>[Kiri was introduced to the TML because of my membership on S~G<BR>
>mailing lists.]  In the future, a mutation has caused the<BR>
>separation of humanity into two subspecies, Gens, who produce a<BR>
>life-energy, and Simes, who must consume it on a regular basis or<BR>
>die. Most Ancient (i.e., modern, to us) knowledge has been lost,<BR>
>and civilization is mostly in ruins, but struggling to rebuild.<BR>
>As written, there is a strong thread of mysticism, but I do not<BR>
>believe that this is essential to the story of the society, only<BR>
>to those of certain of its members.  An interesting possibility<BR>
>for a minor human race.<BR>
><BR>
>(3) Pern, from the Dragonriders and Harper Hall series by Anne<BR>
>McCaffery.  Essentially medieval, with telepathic creatures<BR>
>("dragons"), not entirely devoid of resemblance to pteranodon,<BR>
>that can fly and, under certain circumstances, breathe fire.<BR>
>Their riders are selected on the basis of innate telepathic<BR>
>compatibility with a specific beast.  Also a menace that the<BR>
>dragons just happen to be nearly ideal against.  Menace is a bit<BR>
>of a stretch, IMO, but the society itself could work well in its<BR>
>absence.<BR>
><BR>
>Note: when approached with the idea of making their societies<BR>
>available to Traveller fans as "portations", all three authors<BR>
>responded negatively, citing several quite legitimate concerns.<BR>
>Disappointing, but quite understandable.  Much as I would like to<BR>
>make my notes on Traveller conversions for all of the above<BR>
>available, I will not.  Having said that, however, I will say<BR>
>that it is not my place to police others on the authors' behalf.<BR>
>Make of that what you will, and remember that I do not speak<BR>
>officially for anybody except myself.  And sometimes not even<BR>
>that.<BR>
><BR>
>(4) Proton, from The Apprentice Adept series, by Piers Anthony.<BR>
>The main problem with bringing this society into Traveller is<BR>
>that I can't think of a _reason_ for it to exist in a canon-<BR>
>compatible Travellerverse.  The incidental connection with Phaze<BR>
>is irrelevant, except to the story of the protagonists (for which<BR>
>it is critical), and can be disregarded.<BR>
><BR>
>(5) The Dushau, from the trilogy of the same name by Jacqueline<BR>
>Lichtenberg.  Difficult to reconcile Dushau abilities with psi<BR>
>model used in Traveller - but not impossible, I believe.<BR>
>Interesting ramifications, depending on where and when.<BR>
><BR>
>Note: (5) is probably prohibited, on the same basis as S~G (2)<BR>
>above.<BR>
><BR>
>That's all I can think of, based on a quick scan of my<BR>
>bookshelves; anyone else want to rip into my ideas, expand on<BR>
>them, or issue forth with ideas of their own, to be similarly<BR>
>expanded or ripped?<BR>
>--<BR>
>Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:06:36 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cutlasses<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:30:32 EDT<BR>
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: Cutlasses<BR>
><BR>
>In a message dated 22-Jun-00 2:14:55 PM Central Daylight Time,<BR>
>owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> >The cutlasses which the Imperial Marines use are probably a heck of a<BR>
lot<BR>
>>  >sharper and stronger than those depicted in, say, the Horatio<BR>
Hornblower<BR>
>>  >novels.  Heck, plain old crystaliron dates back to Tech Level 10 or so,<BR>
>>  >and the Imperial Marines usually have Tech Level 15 equipment...<BR>
>><BR>
>>  GF Spoiler: Sorry guys, but the Marine Force does not use cutlasses in<BR>
>>  combat.  There are those prototype hyperdense cutlasses floating around<BR>
>>  though...<BR>
><BR>
>Marc says (in response to this same question 20+ years ago) the Marines got<BR>
>cutlass as a morale building measure and to make them a little different<BR>
from<BR>
>other characters. He went on to comment that most modern armies train with<BR>
>the bayonet despite it's relative uselessness over the last century.<BR>
><BR>
><WWII ANECDOTE><BR>
>My dad's cousin told me his DI told his platoon if the bayonet sticks in<BR>
the<BR>
>bone of your target, you should fire the weapon and let the recoil jar the<BR>
>blade loose. One of the platoon wiseguys remarked that if he had a round<BR>
>left, he wasn't going to be using the bayonet. My cousin in silent in re<BR>
the<BR>
>DI's reaction.<BR>
></WWII ANECDOTE><BR>
><BR>
>LKW<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
According to the book "The Sharp End" (by someone who's name I can't<BR>
recall of the top of my head) during the Russo-Japanese in the fighting<BR>
around Port Arthur both sides infantry ran out of ammunition at about the<BR>
same time. Even though both armies were equipped with bayonettes<BR>
the troops decided to throw rocks at each other rather than close to<BR>
hand to hand combat. No mention was made regarding the lethality<BR>
of the wounds attributed to this unorthodox attack.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"I'm all lost in the supermarket,<BR>
   I can no longer shop happily,<BR>
   I came in here for the special offer<BR>
   Guaranteed Personality" - Strummer/Jones (The Clash)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:01:55 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Killing up close (wasMarine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/22/00 1:38 PM, VonRammen at von_rammen@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> I'd like to see *something* about high tech blade weapons, but, alas, no<BR>
> version of canon has mentioned them. I have no problem being a heretic, but<BR>
> I'd like *somebody* to at least quasi-officially address the issue (or you<BR>
> might end up breaking the blade combat rules even worse).<BR>
<BR>
The side of blade combat that's really never treated is not the<BR>
effectiveness of these weapons.  I have designed a number of high-tech<BR>
cutlery using vibrablades and even the infamous 'chain sword' (inspired by<BR>
an article on chainsaw combat in Traveller).  The problem is that in reality<BR>
it's hard to get soldiers to use HTH weapons.  The great thing about guns is<BR>
that they are so much more 'antiseptic'.  Col. Grossman disusses this in his<BR>
book "On Killing".  Humans have a natural aversion to killing their fellow<BR>
man.  And the closer and more human the target, the harder it is.<BR>
<BR>
Bayonet charges, and attacks with other melee weapons very rarely ended in<BR>
actual contact.  Usually, one side would run, or the charge would falter.<BR>
The killing almost always occurred in the pursuit phase of battle.<BR>
<BR>
Even with guns, the vast majority of troops don't actually shoot at the<BR>
enemy, if they fire at all.  SLA Marshall and others documented that only<BR>
10-15% of infantryman even fire their weapons in combat, even despite<BR>
imminent threat of harm.<BR>
<BR>
It was only with the introduction of modern training techniques that include<BR>
classical and operant conditioning that we see the rise in rates of fire<BR>
(50% in Korea and over 90% in Viet Nam).  These techniques rely in large<BR>
measure on modern weapons and the dehumanizing of the enemy, something<BR>
that's hard to do when you opponent is right in your face.<BR>
<BR>
At one time I was a knife maker (pre-children), and sold many bladed weapons<BR>
at scifi/fantasy conventions.  I always found it amusing to hear from people<BR>
who carried a knife for protection and saying things like "I could never<BR>
shoot someone".  People who obviously have no idea of the brutality of blade<BR>
combat.<BR>
<BR>
With the advent and deployment of combat armor and battle dress, one can<BR>
actually envision it becomes easier for troops to engage the enemy, now<BR>
reduced from humanity to mechanical objects.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <Tod again><BR>
> By the way, thanks for inventing those cool packets of noodles.  Couldn't<BR>
> have made it through college without them. 8)<BR>
> </Tod><BR>
> <BR>
> Since I've been posting a little more lately, I'll address that this once:<BR>
> I spell my email address with two "m's" because the family name was (von)<BR>
> Rammenstein. (The "von" is conjectural, and wasn't used once my<BR>
> great-grandfather arrived in NYC, though I've been told it was part of our<BR>
> name.)<BR>
> <BR>
> In 1946, because the name was so long, my grandfather trimmed it down to<BR>
> it's present form. Unfortunately, with typically German efficiency, he took<BR>
> out the second "m. Worse, my aunts changed the pronounciation from rAHmen to<BR>
> rAYmen, so now everyone spells it Raymond when they hear it. (My father held<BR>
> out for the old pronounciation until the '60s, when he finally gave in.) I<BR>
> have no relation to packets of dried noodles, though for a while I<BR>
> considered going to Japan to teach English. No doubt being taught by "Mr.<BR>
> Soup" would have gone over great with the students :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Fred "Miso" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for a huge chuckle, despite a really dreary day of coding.  I hate<BR>
having to write admin interfaces for idiots!<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:05:16 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
on 6/22/00 5:18 PM, Irishdoh@aol.com at Irishdoh@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <Where was I? Oh, yes, when we were playing Snapshot last Saturday, we<BR>
> considered whether to go with "Hollywood ammo," that is, nobody ever runs out<BR>
> and you just don't worry about it.  We decided that we liked the idea of<BR>
> keeping track of ammunition and encumbrance, so we did.  Still, no one ever<BR>
> ran out of ammunition, even my guy who kept firing ineffective snub pistol<BR>
> rounds (HE, then tranq, then gas, etc.) at Erick's battle dress trooper.<BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn><BR>
> <BR>
> In every game I've played, we have always kept track of the ammo, no matter<BR>
> what the genre.  With the exception of the first release of "Twilight 2000" we<BR>
> have never had anyone run out of ammo in any given fight.  They are usually<BR>
> short, sweet and dirty.  Clips have rarely had to be changed during the fight<BR>
> because clip capacity was large.  T2000 dealt with this by limiting the clip<BR>
> capactity to reflect burst fire and the general fact that in a real firefight,<BR>
> many rounds will go astray.  My players, all of whom were well versed on<BR>
> firearms (Jesse DeGraff being a prime example), basicly complained until I<BR>
> allowed the real magazine capacities.  After that, the characters never ran<BR>
> out of ammo or changed a clip in a firefight.  I also have an article, based<BR>
> on real firefights that occured on the US/Mexico border.  These always<BR>
> included trained law enforcement officers, all happened at less than 15 yards,<BR>
> and the hit ratio was horrible.  Around the 30% mark.<BR>
> <BR>
> Irishdoh<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
actually, 30% hit ratios are pretty good.  IIRC, national average for police<BR>
shooting (non SWAT) is more like 15% hits.  Which is way better than<BR>
military rates.  Of course, most criminals don't make effective use of<BR>
cover, or have supporting suppressive fire.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:08:58 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cutlasses<BR>
<BR>
on 6/22/00 3:30 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Marc says (in response to this same question 20+ years ago) the Marines got<BR>
> cutlass as a morale building measure and to make them a little different from<BR>
> other characters. He went on to comment that most modern armies train with<BR>
> the bayonet despite it's relative uselessness over the last century.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Actually, the US army eliminated bayonet training from basic/AIT for quite a<BR>
number of years, and only reintroduced it in the early 80s as a moral<BR>
building exercise.  When I went through Ft Benning, we didn't even see a<BR>
bayonet, except on a patch or down at Ranger Joe's in Columbus.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:15:02 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
on 6/22/00 4:03 PM, Rodney Basler at rgb@odetics.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>> Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
>> <BR>
>> <BR>
>> My pet peeve.  In CT the Cutlass is statistically more lethal than a RIFLE!<BR>
>> This totally flies in the face of reality.  One only need to look at<BR>
>> casualty reports from the civil war, Balaklava and WW1 to see how few<BR>
>> casualties were produced by edged weapons.  And wounds received from same<BR>
>> were rarely incapacitating.<BR>
> <BR>
> The references that I have read concerning casualty figures from WWI noted<BR>
> the relative lack of bayonet casulties, but then went on to note that these<BR>
> figures came from the dressing stations and field hospitals.  Most of the<BR>
> bayonet injuries were usually fatal and never got as far as the dressing<BR>
> station.<BR>
> <BR>
> Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
> --------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I would be very interested in reading your source material.  Everything I<BR>
have notes the gross ineffectiveness of the bayonet.  Experience troops in<BR>
WW1 usually preferred an entrenching tool for close in work, and even these<BR>
were rarely used.  My sources note the number of bayonet wounds (or lack<BR>
thereof) on bodies as near nil.  This same lack of effectiveness was noted<BR>
in the US civil war and even the Napoleonic wars.  Many experienced field<BR>
commanders recommended the abolition of the bayonet altogether.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:31:32 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
on 6/22/00 4:24 PM, Brian Jenkins at Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>>>>>> <BR>
> That's how I see it anyway.<BR>
>>>>> <BR>
> <BR>
> You know I have been watching this discussion and it is great and I finally<BR>
> had to put my .02 Cr worth in also.  I have studied a lot of history also and<BR>
> understand the physics involved and I understand that part of the fun is the<BR>
> debate.<BR>
> <BR>
> But this is how I feel.<BR>
> <BR>
> As a long time roleplayer of traveller and others I like the cutlass and how<BR>
> it works in traveller.  I mean.....this is traveller man!  And Marines use<BR>
> cutlasses in traveller!  I know it doesn't make sense but sometimes it just<BR>
> shouldn't.  And part of the allure of traveller are things like these.  I<BR>
> could never begin to debate people on this since they are far more<BR>
> knowledgeable.  I just know one thing.<BR>
> <BR>
> IMTU Marines use cutlasses.<BR>
> <BR>
> And cutlasses ROCK!<BR>
> <BR>
> Ok...I am finished now with the unreasonable viewpoint.  Intelligent<BR>
> discussion may continue now.....:)<BR>
> <BR>
> You guys are the best.  Always love it on this list.<BR>
> <BR>
> Brian<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Brian,<BR>
You, my man, have the soul of it.  Ok, I like a lot of realism in my games.<BR>
Combat is ugly, life is cruel, and very very often, the bad guys win.  But<BR>
it's all about having a good time.  And sometimes the good guy DOES get hit<BR>
in the left shoulder and, with immense sang froid, tosses off "hey, is THAT<BR>
the best you got?", draws his beat up cutlass (a veteran and fellow<BR>
campaigner of many years) and dryly observes "gee, looks like you're out of<BR>
bullets".<BR>
<BR>
We military buff look at things in the harsh light of modern combat.  20th<BR>
century warfare is a soulless machine that chews up men and spits out<BR>
wreckage.  There is not glory or honor or gallantry.  It's just a brutal<BR>
business all about who can kill and maim fastest.<BR>
<BR>
Traveller is about adventure and heroes and the dashing former captain of<BR>
marines tossing aside his sidearm and drawing his blade, giving the enemy a<BR>
fair fight because while the other guy may not be a man of honor "by god,<BR>
sir, I am!".<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for reminding us what it's all about.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:34:13 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
on 6/22/00 4:48 PM, Rodney Basler at rgb@odetics.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
>> Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
>> <BR>
> <snip><BR>
>> <BR>
>> Still remember the first time I played a video game that involved shooting<BR>
>> ("Star Wars" I think) and the shock people had because I'd get my target<BR>
>> in my sights and then shoot it instead of firing constantly... that's when<BR>
>> I realized most of these people had no idea that ammo is finite.<BR>
> <BR>
> Now the latest crop of games score on ammo consumption...silly me, I was<BR>
> taught to double-tap.  Hard habit to break  :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Rod Basler, COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Mozambique drill.  Two to the chest, one to the head.<BR>
<BR>
Or Tod's basic rule of gun combat: "Shoot till it falls over.  Then shoot<BR>
some more".<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:42:00 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Cutlass Declaration (was: Re: Marine cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/22/00 5:05 PM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I humbly offer my Cr 0.02 on this issue, as a reasonable compromise:<BR>
> <BR>
> 1.  As Doug pointed out, Imperial Marine doctrine neither prescribes nor<BR>
> suggests the use of cutlasses in combat situations.  Officially,<BR>
> cutlasses are not considered combat equipment.<BR>
> <BR>
> 2.  As Doug also pointed out, Imperial Marines _do_ train on the<BR>
> cutlass, to enhance both physical conditioning and esprit de corps among<BR>
> Imperial Marines.<BR>
> <BR>
> 3.  Since the Imperial Marines do not fit the stereotype of the Soviet<BR>
> Army in the 1970s (i.e., automatons unable to deviate from doctrine),<BR>
> leaders of individual boarding parties may feel free to employ cutlasses<BR>
> if, in their view, the situation so warrants, as long as those parties<BR>
> succeed in their missions without undue casualties.  Victory is its own<BR>
> justification, while defeat must endure questioning.<BR>
> <BR>
> 4.  Certain Imperial Marine leaders may well have developed a fondness<BR>
> for habitual successful use of cutlasses during boarding actions.<BR>
> <BR>
> 5.  Some of these Imperial Marine leaders have been able, at personal<BR>
> expense, to supply their Marines with hyperdense cutlasses.<BR>
> <BR>
> 6.  Hyperdense cutlasses, in the hands of battledress-equipped<BR>
> personnel, do indeed slice through materials that would shatter ordinary<BR>
> cutlasses.<BR>
> <BR>
> 7.  Every time one of these leaders gets in a sufficiently lofty<BR>
> position (say, on the staff of a Sector level command), he/she/it<BR>
> proposes that the Imperial Marines adopt a hyperdense cutlass as<BR>
> standard equipment for boarding actions, citing the reasons mentioned in<BR>
> previous posts (less chance of collateral damage, effects on enemy<BR>
> morale, etc.).  These proposals have led to several hyperdense cutlass<BR>
> prototypes, but no standard fielding of hyperdense cutlasses.<BR>
> <BR>
> 8.  To date, there has been no formal rewriting of doctrine to include<BR>
> cutlasses, hyperdense or otherwise, as standard equipment for boarding<BR>
> actions (but see point #3 above).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I would propose the old British model for officers' sidearms (blade and<BR>
gun):  "The marine officer shall, at his own expense, purchase cutlass and<BR>
pistol as part of his uniform kit.  Said cutlass to conform to standards as<BR>
specified by office of the commandant of the Imperial Marine Corps or<BR>
equivalent body, and said pistol to be of good quality and firing the<BR>
regulation ammunition."<BR>
<BR>
I have a lovely picture of a Wilkinson sword and revolver (Webley built<BR>
revolvers that were sold under the Wilkinson name) that was purchased by an<BR>
infantry officer on his war to the Boer War.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:52:15 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
on 6/22/00 5:48 PM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> IIRC a study done that showed in vietnam there were on the order of 10,000<BR>
> rounds to one casulity expended.<BR>
<BR>
More like 200,000 rnds per (confirmed) casualty produced.  In WW1 the ratio<BR>
was about 7,000 rounds per casualty.  Why this changed?  Previous to the<BR>
Korean war, only about 10-15% of infantry fired their weapons.  In Viet Nam<BR>
over 90% did. Automatic weapons and the doctrine of suppressive fire kicked<BR>
up the numbers, as well as helicopter and aircraft armaments.  Aircraft<BR>
mounted miniguns expended a disproportionate percentage of all small arms<BR>
ammunition used in Viet Nam.<BR>
<BR>
As an interesting aside, army snipers in Viet Nam averaged 1.67 rounds fired<BR>
per CONFIRMED enemy kill (i.e put you boot on a body).  I believe the Marine<BR>
had a slightly higher ratio, although they tended to engage targets at<BR>
longer ranges.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> IMHO - ammo can run out quick when you are under stress, trying not to get<BR>
> hit, and fireing at people who use cover (usally all happinging at once). I<BR>
> ran a cool GT fire fight in a werehouse - 4 guys each side, one SMG 2<BR>
> shotguns and a Laser Carbine each side (with autopistols all around). 3 of<BR>
> the shotguns ran out (and one accually reloaded the damn thing) and one of<BR>
> the SMG's ran out. Our findings were that weapons w/o recoil were very much<BR>
> more effective - Lasercarbineguy blew away 3 baddys.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Your players need to learn about tactical reloads.  Never shoot you gun dry<BR>
(unless you don't have a choice).  Whenever there is a lull, top off or swap<BR>
magazines.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2643<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2644</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 23 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2644<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
"Cutlass and Blaster, Advance!"<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Cutlasses<BR>
Re: "Cutlass and Blaster, Advance!"<BR>
Re: "Cutlass and Blaster, Advance!"<BR>
Re: To Loren: I read your footnotes!<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Dave Hyphen come on down<BR>
Re: Role playing <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:20:23 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: "Cutlass and Blaster, Advance!"<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn sez:<BR>
<BR>
>Traveller is about adventure and heroes and the dashing former captain of<BR>
>marines tossing aside his sidearm and drawing his blade, giving the enemy a<BR>
>fair fight because while the other guy may not be a man of honor "by god,<BR>
>sir, I am!".<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks for reminding us what it's all about.<BR>
<BR>
 Hear, Hear!<BR>
<BR>
 One of the most amazing bits of combat I've been part of in a Traveller game <BR>
came during our playing of KnightFall. My character was a merchant who <BR>
(surprise!) actually paid attention to local Law Levels. The Small Blade-3 <BR>
didn't hurt, except when he took out a young tough in one shot while his <BR>
gun-toting comrades struggled with the rest. Nearly an Evil Dead moment: <BR>
toughs emerge from the shadows bearing knives and myriad tattoos "Show us the <BR>
money or the fat one gets hurt." The "fat one" then pulls his Dundee, er, <BR>
Bowie, says "Come get some" and drops the lead tough. A little struggle <BR>
convinces the rest to leave, quickly.<BR>
 Most satisfying, as I'd refused to bring a gun at all...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:25:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
Yeah.. I make an effort to check ammo when ever I have a chance, and if I am<BR>
shooting a shotgun I like to plug rounds into it when ever I can..<BR>
<BR>
But - I have 2 armchair military experts.. it is far beyond me to tell them<BR>
_anything_ ;>... they just seem to get shot a lot. They did learn the cover<BR>
thing tho..<BR>
<BR>
Muhahahahaha<BR>
<BR>
>>>>><BR>
Your players need to learn about tactical reloads.  Never shoot you gun dry<BR>
(unless you don't have a choice).  Whenever there is a lull, top off or swap<BR>
magazines.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- --<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:26:56 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
on 6/22/00 5:45 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Kevlar doesn't stop edged weapons. There was a recent case in the news<BR>
> about some idiot who got severely injured by asking a buddy to try<BR>
> stabbing him while he was wearing his kevlar vest.<BR>
<BR>
Stabbing is different.  In my post you'll see I specifically excluded<BR>
thrusts with sharply pointed weapons like a tanto, katana or ice pick.<BR>
> <BR>
> Kevlar is hard to *break*. High tensile strength. That's how it stops<BR>
> bullets, as they have to expend a lot of energy breaking or displacing<BR>
> fibers. <BR>
> <BR>
> But kevlar is *easy* to cut. About the same as nylon...<BR>
<BR>
In one layer, maybe.  I've tried to cut a ballistic vest.  It is not easy.<BR>
I have yet to see a knife that will slash all the way through a modern<BR>
threat level III vest (note the word slash).<BR>
<BR>
I will provide the vest if someone thinks they can.  If they don't, though,<BR>
I want a new vest.<BR>
> <BR>
> A slash with a sharp edge *will* lay open a kevlar vest or a vaccsuit.<BR>
<BR>
see above.<BR>
 <BR>
> <BR>
>> Bullet holes may be easier to seal, but bullets from modern weapons do<BR>
>> damage far out of proportion to their size.  You don't get hydraulic shock<BR>
>> from a sword.<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, you don't get it from bullets either. At least not according<BR>
> to the research I've read about.<BR>
<BR>
Depends on the velocity.  Hydraulic shock is generally not observed in<BR>
rounds with an impact velocity under about 600 meters/second.  See the SIPRI<BR>
report "Anti-personnel Weapons".  Above 600 meters per second, gross tissue<BR>
damage, particularly to soft tissue is readily observed.  The effect is most<BR>
noticeable in projectiles that have a high retardation rate, and thus<BR>
transfer energy in a very rapid manner. This effect was noted as early as<BR>
1899 by Keith and Rigby.<BR>
<BR>
Even more dramatic effects are observed in projectiles that exceed 1450<BR>
meters/second (the speed of sound in tissue). AP Weapons observes that these<BR>
'hypervelocity' rounds cause tissue to behave almost as a solid the<BR>
'shatters' requiring 'new techniques of wound care and debridement' as well<BR>
as severe damage to soft tissue such as organs.<BR>
> <BR>
>> I'm not worried about ricochets, because I'm using highly frangible<BR>
>> ammunition.<BR>
> <BR>
> You still have to worry about *misses*.<BR>
<BR>
That's why you aim and shoot multiple times.  The collateral damage from<BR>
firearms to ship systems is likely to be insignificant when compared to a<BR>
pre-boarding bombardment.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>> Heck, this stuff might not even pierce your vacc suit, just<BR>
>> drive the fabric 5 or 6 inches into you chest.  Anything important in there?<BR>
> <BR>
> If it's equivalent to cloth armour, it either won't let you stretch it<BR>
> that far, or it'll break from the attempt. There's no middle ground.<BR>
<BR>
Soft body armor is just that: soft.  The phenomenon is known as 'back<BR>
trauma', where soft body armor stops the incoming projectile, but the<BR>
displacement of the vest and underlying tissue and bone can cause anything<BR>
from mild bruising to lethal internal injury.  One of the big selling<BR>
features of body armor made from the aramid fiber 'SPECTRA' is it's<BR>
resistance to back trauma.  It is stiffer, but also less comfortable than<BR>
older kevlar and ballistic nylon vests.  Ceramic and metal inserts are also<BR>
used.  So called 'trauma plates' aide in stopping shoot-throughs, but also<BR>
serve to limit back trauma in areas that are most vulnerable (like the<BR>
center of the chest--ask you doctor about a cardiac thump).  Police officers<BR>
have been killed by back trauma despite the fact that their vests stopped<BR>
the bullet.  The USDOJ has an interesting report on body armor.  I'll have<BR>
to see if it's available on the web.<BR>
> <BR>
>> If swords and such were really all that useful in close combat, troops would<BR>
>> use them.  They don't.<BR>
> <BR>
> That's becauser they take a lot of traiuning, and most modern combat<BR>
> isn't fought at ranges where they are useful.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm a *far* better shot than I am with a sword. Guess which I've had<BR>
> more practice with?<BR>
<BR>
My point exactly.  There are more effective weapons that require far less<BR>
training.  The longbow remained superior in range and accuracy over the<BR>
musket until the Minie ball, yet it's military use was over in the west by<BR>
1600.<BR>
<BR>
I can train a person to be a adequate shot with a rifle in a day (I've done<BR>
this many times).  Further, that person can not touch a gun for 10 years,<BR>
then pick up a rifle and within a few hours of practice, have sufficient<BR>
ability for modern combat (90% of all rifle combat occurs at 300 meters or<BR>
less, 60% at 75 meters or less -- See the results of the ALCLAD studies, as<BR>
well as the Johns Hopkins report "Operational Requirements of Infantry Hand<BR>
Weapons" for details on combat distances.<BR>
<BR>
To be proficient with a sword (or knife for that matter) requires regular<BR>
practice.  It require good physical conditioning and reasonable dexterity.<BR>
I have friends who could barely walk across a room without tripping who can<BR>
hit a B-21 silhouette at 100 meters with a rifle all day long.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:30:14 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cutlasses<BR>
<BR>
on 6/22/00 6:06 PM, DaveShayne at daveshayne@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> According to the book "The Sharp End" (by someone who's name I can't<BR>
> recall of the top of my head) during the Russo-Japanese in the fighting<BR>
> around Port Arthur both sides infantry ran out of ammunition at about the<BR>
> same time. Even though both armies were equipped with bayonettes<BR>
> the troops decided to throw rocks at each other rather than close to<BR>
> hand to hand combat. No mention was made regarding the lethality<BR>
> of the wounds attributed to this unorthodox attack.<BR>
> <BR>
> Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
The same story is reported in Col. Grossman's excellent book "On Killing".<BR>
If you remember who wrote "The Sharp End", let me know, It's on my must read<BR>
list.  Reading "Soldiers" by Keagan just now.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:46:03 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: "Cutlass and Blaster, Advance!"<BR>
<BR>
on 6/22/00 10:20 PM, GypsyComet@aol.com at GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hear, Hear!<BR>
> <BR>
> One of the most amazing bits of combat I've been part of in a Traveller game<BR>
> came during our playing of KnightFall. My character was a merchant who<BR>
> (surprise!) actually paid attention to local Law Levels. The Small Blade-3<BR>
> didn't hurt, except when he took out a young tough in one shot while his<BR>
> gun-toting comrades struggled with the rest. Nearly an Evil Dead moment:<BR>
> toughs emerge from the shadows bearing knives and myriad tattoos "Show us the<BR>
> money or the fat one gets hurt." The "fat one" then pulls his Dundee, er,<BR>
> Bowie, says "Come get some" and drops the lead tough. A little struggle<BR>
> convinces the rest to leave, quickly.<BR>
> Most satisfying, as I'd refused to bring a gun at all...<BR>
> <BR>
> GC<BR>
<BR>
It's amazing what a little guts will accomplish.  I am reminded of the story<BR>
of the marine with a .45 stooping a tank. "big brass ones, that's what the<BR>
wheelbarrow is for."<BR>
<BR>
Every now and then I like to read the Medal of Honor citations to be<BR>
reminded of what someone with a little courage can accomplish.<BR>
<BR>
On that note, a citation that seems more like something from an RPG or a<BR>
movie than real history (and sadly, one of a small percentage of<BR>
non-posthumous MOHs)<BR>
<BR>
"MURPHY, AUDIE L. <BR>
<BR>
Rank and organization: Second Lieutenant, U.S. Army, Company B 1 5th<BR>
Infantry, 3d Infantry Division. Place and date: Near Holtzwihr France, 26<BR>
January 1945. Entered service at: Dallas, Tex. Birth: Hunt County, near<BR>
Kingston, Tex. G.O. No.. 65, 9 August 1945. Citation 2d Lt. Murphy commanded<BR>
Company B, which was attacked by 6 tanks and waves of infantry. 2d Lt.<BR>
Murphy ordered his men to withdraw to prepared positions in a woods, while<BR>
he remained forward at his command post and continued to give fire<BR>
directions to the artillery by telephone. Behind him, to his right, 1 of our<BR>
tank destroyers received a direct hit and began to burn. Its crew withdrew<BR>
to the woods. 2d Lt. Murphy continued to direct artillery fire which killed<BR>
large numbers of the advancing enemy infantry. With the enemy tanks abreast<BR>
of his position, 2d Lt. Murphy climbed on the burning tank destroyer, which<BR>
was in danger of blowing up at any moment, and employed its .50 caliber<BR>
machinegun against the enemy. He was alone and exposed to German fire from 3<BR>
sides, but his deadly fire killed dozens of Germans and caused their<BR>
infantry attack to waver. The enemy tanks, losing infantry support, began to<BR>
fall back. For an hour the Germans tried every available weapon to eliminate<BR>
2d Lt. Murphy, but he continued to hold his position and wiped out a squad<BR>
which was trying to creep up unnoticed on his right flank. Germans reached<BR>
as close as 10 yards, only to be mowed down by his fire. He received a leg<BR>
wound, but ignored it and continued the single-handed fight until his<BR>
ammunition was exhausted. He then made his way to his company, refused<BR>
medical attention, and organized the company in a counterattack which forced<BR>
the Germans to withdraw. His directing of artillery fire wiped out many of<BR>
the enemy; he killed or wounded about 50. 2d Lt. Murphy's indomitable<BR>
courage and his refusal to give an inch of ground saved his company from<BR>
possible encirclement and destruction, and enabled it to hold the woods<BR>
which had been the enemy's objective. "<BR>
<BR>
Never underestimate the power of raw courage.<BR>
<BR>
tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:49:37 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: "Cutlass and Blaster, Advance!"<BR>
<BR>
> Every now and then I like to read the Medal of Honor citations to be<BR>
> reminded of what someone with a little courage can accomplish.<BR>
> <BR>
Forgot to mention it.  Anyone interested in reading the Medal of Honor<BR>
citations can find them at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm<BR>
<BR>
Sobering and inspiring reading.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:13:57 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: To Loren: I read your footnotes!<BR>
<BR>
At 11:38 PM 6/21/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>Loren, you closed your most recent JTAS editorial with the following<BR>
>comment:<BR>
><BR>
>"Is anybody reading these things?"<BR>
><BR>
>I read both your footnotes and the editorials which point to your footnotes.<BR>
>Indeed, they are invariably the first thing I read when an issue of JTAS<BR>
>arrives at my house, hot off the virtual presses. The editorials are pretty<BR>
>nifty. I dig 'em. If you keep writing, them, I'll keep reading them.<BR>
Ditto to all of the above.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:28:18 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
Irishdoh@aol.com wrote :<BR>
<BR>
> In every game I've played, we have always kept track of the ammo,<BR>
> no matter what the genre.  With the exception of the first<BR>
> release of "Twilight 2000" we have never had anyone run out of<BR>
> ammo in any given fight.<BR>
<BR>
We have run out of ammo in games, largely because you don't always go into a<BR>
battle carrying a full load of ammo.<BR>
<BR>
Especially if you've been out of supply for several weeks, and are trying to<BR>
get home through hostile territory, or have spent four months in the<BR>
badlands carrying everything you needed.<BR>
<BR>
> They are usually short, sweet and<BR>
> dirty.  Clips have rarely had to be changed during the fight<BR>
> because clip capacity was large.  T2000 dealt with this by<BR>
> limiting the clip capactity to reflect burst fire and the general<BR>
> fact that in a real firefight, many rounds will go astray.  My<BR>
> players, all of whom were well versed on firearms (Jesse DeGraff<BR>
> being a prime example), basicly complained until I allowed the<BR>
> real magazine capacities.  After that, the characters never ran<BR>
> out of ammo or changed a clip in a firefight.<BR>
<BR>
All you need to do to make it more realistic is force your players to use<BR>
suppresive fire which can be done merely by having them hit every time they<BR>
leave cover if they don't.<BR>
<BR>
Most roleplaying fire combats are extremely unrealistic becasuse of the<BR>
small number fo shots fired. This is because firstly, the enemy don't fire<BR>
enough at the characters. This is because a)the GM can't bothered resolving<BR>
every likley shot, & b) the GM is usually far too "nice" to the players<BR>
because he doesn't want them to all die quickly.<BR>
<BR>
Secondly, players do not act like most people do in a fire combat, which is<BR>
to fill anything that looks dangerous with lead.<BR>
<BR>
Especially the US Army, which used support weapons like other forces use<BR>
small-arms suppressive fire. "There could be a sniper in that tree, call in<BR>
an airstrike!" <grin><BR>
<BR>
Sorry, just been reading a description of US operations in Italy during<BR>
WWII, and they _did_ act this way in some cases.<BR>
<BR>
Other things could be to tell them about standard training, like the<BR>
"double-tap" or "always fire twice" rule for certain operatives, and<BR>
volley-fire .<BR>
<BR>
When I play characters in combat, I act like I'm there, especially in<BR>
strange circumstances, like when faced by an umknown monster, I tend to<BR>
empty my magazine into it if it doesn't fall down immediately. I've even<BR>
done this to humans if my character was pissed at them for some reason. The<BR>
idea is to roleplay the characters as real people, and real people do not<BR>
always<BR>
carefully count their shots and fire only when they know they are going to<BR>
hit, or, for that matter, carry as much ammunition as they can, in most<BR>
circumstances.<BR>
<BR>
> I also have an<BR>
> article, based on real firefights that occured on the US/Mexico<BR>
> border.  These always included trained law enforcement officers,<BR>
> all happened at less than 15 yards, and the hit ratio was<BR>
> horrible.  Around the 30% mark.<BR>
<BR>
Actually normal hit ratios in wars are worse than that.<BR>
I believe the ratio in WWII was something like 6000 rounds fired for every<BR>
hit.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 23:23:53 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:52:15 -0700<BR>
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Your players need to learn about tactical reloads.  Never shoot your gun dry<BR>
>(unless you don't have a choice).  Whenever there is a lull, top off or swap<BR>
>magazines.<BR>
<BR>
Amen, and yes sir!  YOUR players have learned (also about N.Y. <BR>
reloads).  Frequently the hard way.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<red@europa.com><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 23:28:05 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I have friends who could barely walk across a room without tripping who can<BR>
>hit a B-21 silhouette at 100 meters with a rifle all day long.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well, if you'd move the kids' toys, and the large Rottweiller...<BR>
<BR>
;)<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 23:34:25 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
><<snipped>><BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Brian,<BR>
>You, my man, have the soul of it.  Ok, I like a lot of realism in my games.<BR>
>Combat is ugly, life is cruel, and very very often, the bad guys win.<BR>
<BR>
Sometimes even when they lose, they win.  Sigh.<BR>
<BR>
>But it's all about having a good time.  And sometimes the good guy <BR>
>DOES get hit in the left shoulder and, with immense sang froid, <BR>
>tosses off "hey, is THAT the best you got?", draws his beat up <BR>
>cutlass (a veteran and fellow<BR>
>campaigner of many years) and dryly observes "gee, looks like you're out of<BR>
>bullets".<BR>
<BR>
And sometimes the average-sized, annoying guy with the sharpened <BR>
stick defeats the master assassin.  Never underestimate the power of <BR>
desperation and sheer dumb luck.<BR>
<BR>
>Traveller is about adventure and heroes and the dashing former captain of<BR>
>marines tossing aside his sidearm and drawing his blade, giving the enemy a<BR>
>fair fight because while the other guy may not be a man of honor "by God,<BR>
>sir, I am!".<BR>
<BR>
Style, as always, counts.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 06:57:23 +1000<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Dave Hyphen come on down<BR>
<BR>
As per tradition, I will now channel Dave Hyphen's announcement RE Website.<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
*****************************<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Beowulf Down starport is pleased to announce the official opening of the<BR>
Tavonni<BR>
Departure Lounge!<BR>
<BR>
Previously closed to updates due to reprioritisation of resources[1], it<BR>
became<BR>
obvious that the area was long-overdue[2] for renovation. With the<BR>
assistance of<BR>
Caradoc LIC[3], Beowulf Down obtained robotic assistance[4] to assist in the<BR>
renovation and maintenance of a new-look terminal building.<BR>
<BR>
The Departure Lounge now allows travellers to browse jump points sorted by<BR>
Port<BR>
Director, Port Title, and Rating. Phase 2 will add support to browse by<BR>
Milieu<BR>
(now, did I spell that correctly? ;-) and to allow passing travellers to<BR>
submit<BR>
details of new Jump point destinations.[5] Phase 3 is still in the planning<BR>
stage, but it is envisioned that it will produce a "Jump Points Of Interest"<BR>
grouping - that is, destinations that are not directly related to Traveller<BR>
but<BR>
of passing interest such as the Mollier Skycar or real-universe astrographic<BR>
data.<BR>
<BR>
Although mostly self-explanatory, if you don't understand an element of a<BR>
Jump<BR>
Point entry, see the Key.<BR>
<BR>
Starport liaison officers have added many new entries suggested by our<BR>
visitors,<BR>
although not all have yet been visited or rated. Please be understanding as<BR>
our<BR>
team from Survey Branch[6] take the time to travel to each destination port<BR>
and<BR>
conduct a Class V system survey.[7]<BR>
<BR>
In the meantime, please feel free to come in and browse through the<BR>
Departure<BR>
Lounge!<BR>
<BR>
Heidi Maria Heyerdahl<BR>
Chairman<BR>
Tavonni Starport Control<BR>
Beowulf Down<BR>
Tavonni (Vilis/Spinward Marches 1520)<BR>
"Centre of the Marches!"<BR>
<BR>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<BR>
Starport Designer's Footnotes:<BR>
[1] I have 2 children under 5, a wife, a full-time job, and very little free<BR>
time. And a baby due in August. Something had to give. (And no jokes about<BR>
which<BR>
one I should have picked, thanks, I can make those up myself!!  ;-) ;-) ;-)<BR>
[2] It hasn't been updated for 18 months. Gaak!<BR>
[3] Andrew "Eoraokortitrikhue" Madden wrote the VB engine and script that<BR>
interrogate my Access database (fortunately at "mates rates", ie. free. ;-).<BR>
A<BR>
big thank you!<BR>
[4] A VB program passes Access database queries to a VBScript program, which<BR>
generates static HTML pages. Change the query or add a new one, and it still<BR>
works. Hey, it's better than what I had before, which was direct editing of<BR>
the<BR>
HTML page!<BR>
[5] "No, it's not true that the special collectors edition tickets were<BR>
printed<BR>
at the wrong size for the ticket machines. The truth is that the slots in<BR>
the<BR>
ticket machines were built too small for the tickets." (unnamed SOCOG - er,<BR>
sorry, I mean Tavonni official).<BR>
[6] That is, _me_. %-P<BR>
[7] You want to know the procedure just to get _this_ far?!!? Here it is:<BR>
     a.   Pull one's finger out and decide to get "that damn links page<BR>
updated!" ;-) ;<BR>
     b.   Analyse the data required for a Jump Point entry;<BR>
     c.   Create an Access database to match;<BR>
     d.   Massage the old Jump Points page to create a table able to be<BR>
imported<BR>
into the database (big headache);<BR>
     e.   Import and clean up;<BR>
     f.   Get someone to automate HTML page generation;<BR>
     g.   Test, test, and test the generation process and fix the scripting;<BR>
     h.   Manually parse through the 250K of update requests received over<BR>
the<BR>
past 18 months;<BR>
     i.   Enter the corrections into the database;<BR>
     j.   Create a table containing the new entries;<BR>
     k.   Import that as well and clean up;<BR>
     l.   Generate the sorted pages;<BR>
     m.   Create a new start page with appropriate links to the sorted<BR>
pages;<BR>
     n.   Update the Key page to match, plus update the Contents, Welcome,<BR>
and<BR>
Just Detected pages;<BR>
     o.   Create and upload a new "UPDATED" gif;<BR>
     p.   Upload all modifications and re-test.<BR>
     q.   Announce the official opening; and<BR>
     r.   Collapse in a heap. Or maybe a in a corner of Brubek's with a tall<BR>
Scotch.<BR>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<BR>
Whew! Enjoy.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:54:47 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Role playing <BR>
<BR>
red@europa.com wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> >I am suggesting that a dysfunctional home <BR>
> >life may be a good part of the reason why many PC's act like PC's <BR>
> >and not like people.<BR>
<BR>
> How curious.  If the PCs are not acting "like people", what are they <BR>
> acting like?  Inanimate objects? <BR>
<BR>
If a two dimensional cardboard cutout counts as an inanimate <BR>
object than yes a lot of PC's act like inanimate objects.<BR>
 <BR>
> In my experience, PCs frequently act differently than the average <BR>
> person (while still acting like people, thank you) because when an <BR>
> account is roleplaying, they don't usually want to roleplay an <BR>
> accountant.  Where the heck is the fun in that?  <BR>
<BR>
Yes but what i'm saying is that part of the reason the player<BR>
chose to become an accountant in the real world is that he<BR>
wanted to be one. That is he selected accounting as a career because<BR>
he believed that the reward/risk & cost ration was good.<BR>
<BR>
The player knows that if his character dies he can make up<BR>
a new one. he also knows (barring various religious beliefs<BR>
that are off topic here) that when _he_ dies he does not get<BR>
to roll up a new character. Hence most characters tend to be more<BR>
reckless than most people. My characters on the other hand tend<BR>
to be more grasping, philosophically dedicated, whatever than<BR>
the average person. IMHO the player needs a reason why his<BR>
character regularly tries things that most stunt men, rodeo clowns,<BR>
elite soldiers, smoke jumpers, etc are too risk averse to do.<BR>
<BR>
> Besides, how much playing will you do with a <BR>
> character who just wants to stay home and tend his little vegetable <BR>
> garden?  (Barring a GM who will arrange for the vegetable garden to <BR>
> be destroyed by a small group of maniacs who also torch the PC's <BR>
> house, kill his dog, kidnap his fiance, and assault his grandmother. <BR>
> If you want to play an accountant, our GM WILL find a way to involve <BR>
> him.)<BR>
<BR>
It seems to me that the player needs to have a reason his<BR>
charecter is out there risking his neck. To me 'Because I<BR>
am not a real person and my death is not real' is a bit lacking<BR>
in verisimilitude. I prefer answers like:<BR>
<BR>
"You offered me a job as the forth crew person on a jump<BR>
four ship on a journey across four sectors. Four is the<BR>
sacred number. Obviously destiny was calling. Given that <BR>
the Duke did not approve of my introducing his daughter to <BR>
polyamarous relationships I am currently in need of a position." <BR>
(Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
"I've down to my last eleven credits and need to pay expenses<BR>
on this Scout Ship the service loaned me when I mustered out."<BR>
(Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
"The wealthy classes are exploiting the non wealthy classes.<BR>
Our current plutocratic oligarchy consists of exploiters of<BR>
the working class. I need to earn money to finance the<BR>
revolution and it's time to get out of town anyway before they<BR>
catch me for printing those 'seditious' handbills." (D & D)<BR>
<BR>
"Chaos must be cleansed with fire. Die Chaos spawn!". (Warhammer <BR>
FRP)<BR>
<BR>
"Logic dictates that the betterment of the many is worth<BR>
the efforts of the few. Therefore joining Starfleet was the<BR>
logical course of action." (Star Trek)<BR>
<BR>
Five very different characters, all with clear motivations<BR>
to act as they did. None of them suffered from the delusion<BR>
that they were not real people who could die real deaths but<BR>
they were all willing to risk these deaths for the right reason.<BR>
<BR>
> >I was simply trying to offer a game universe reason why many <BR>
> >characters are less risk averse and less in contact with their <BR>
> >families than many 'real' people are.<BR>
<BR>
> While I have known a number of people who have not spoken with <BR>
> various relatives for decades, frequently over some small slight, <BR>
> real or imagined - yes, we in this reality do tend to be closer to <BR>
> our families than many PCs.  BUT.<BR>
> One reason is distance.  When a character leaves their homeworld to <BR>
> join the Marines, become a merchant, seek their fortune, whatever, <BR>
> they literally may never get back to their home due to the distances <BR>
> involved.  This is probably as accepted a cultural aspect in the <BR>
> Imperium as it was during certain periods of our history when people <BR>
> immigrated to the Continent, to the colonies, or even 'out West', <BR>
> never to return.<BR>
<BR>
This is a very good reason why charecters families of origin <BR>
may not be seen very often but it does not seem like a good reason<BR>
for charecters families of origin not be a powerful motivator<BR>
of their actions. Moreover many of these historical people wrote<BR>
to their families and/or worked hard to earn the money to bring<BR>
their families to the new land. I have not seen many Pc's<BR>
do the same. The way most PC's grasp hold of every credit/ gold<BR>
piece/whatever they can get you and never spend any of it on<BR>
their families is rather unusual.<BR>
<BR>
> Another reason is players.  I have known many players who simply did <BR>
> not want to be bothered with generating an entire family or family <BR>
> history for their character. It's time consuming, and not everyone <BR>
> wants or needs that kind of background for their character. <BR>
<BR>
So much of how people act is determined by their early backgrounds.<BR>
Without this information is becomes more difficult to adequately<BR>
role play charecter motivations.<BR>
<BR>
Is your ex-Scout surly and have trouble getting along with<BR>
others? Maybe she's the only child of dysfunctional divorced<BR>
scientists.<BR>
<BR>
Does your halfling always try to mother the other charecters?<BR>
Maybe she's the oldest child, mom is dead and dad drinks too much. <BR>
She learned to be the provider because soemone had to be.<BR>
<BR>
Etc.<BR>
<BR>
> I have played and played with PCs who definitely came from <BR>
> dysfunctional families, and those who came from very stable <BR>
> backgrounds.  Why they're PCs and are out adventuring in the universe <BR>
> could be one of a number of reasons.  They have been adrenaline <BR>
> junkies, sociopaths, remittance men, merchants, seekers of knowledge, <BR>
> and one person I know even successfullly played a serial killer.  I'm <BR>
> not sure if the latter's family was dysfunctional or not.  I'll have <BR>
> to ask.<BR>
<BR>
What I'm sayin is that (IMHO) the player should have a good<BR>
reason for his charecters motivations and that understanding<BR>
people motivations is often easier if you understand their families<BR>
of origin.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2644<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2645</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 23 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2645<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
Re: The Cutlass Declaration <BR>
Fix Bayonets! (was RE: Cutlasses)<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: The Cutlass Declaration <BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Killing up close (wasMarine Cutlass)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2643<BR>
Real Men<BR>
MoH<BR>
Re: Running out of Ammo<BR>
Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
Re: Real Men<BR>
Re: shipboard combat<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2643<BR>
RE: Combat Pistol (was: shipboard combat)<BR>
Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:12:12 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Possibly Marines learn Cutlass because back in the Civil<BR>
War they did not know Cutlass. One of the last Emperor's <BR>
of the Flag sent his Marines in to take a capitol class<BR>
ship he needed to use to defeat  a rival. In the process<BR>
of taking the ship with guns his Marines destroyed it. The<BR>
Emperor could not use the ship and lost the battle. After<BR>
the war Arbellatra decided that this was never going to<BR>
happen to _her_ Marines. Now all marines learn Cutlass.<BR>
<BR>
For want of a sword the ship was lost.<BR>
For want of the ship the battle was lost.<BR>
For want of the battle the Empire was lost.<BR>
<BR>
- - post bellum Imperial folk saying<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:32:10 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > Use the future location of the planet as your target. Since<BR>
> > the Tigress is blockading your planet than you should be able<BR>
> > to attack it. if not than maybe the next ship will, you do have<BR>
> > 1,000 Scout ships in this example.<BR>
> <BR>
> Keep in mind that jump *duration* varies by hours. And during those<BR>
> hours the planet moves. Moves a *lot*.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, so? No set of canon Traveller rules I am aware of make<BR>
any relationship (barring misjump) between the time length of <BR>
a jump and the accuracy of a jump. Since solar systems are<BR>
constantly moving ships _must_  either be able to target<BR>
relative location like 'A million klicks from the planet'<BR>
or ships can somehow arrange things to that when they come<BR>
out of jump the target planet just happens to be there.<BR>
<BR>
YMMV but how else does the ship (which canonically does not<BR>
know how long it will be in jump) manage to usually come<BR>
out pretty close to the planet (or the stars 100 diameter<BR>
limit whichever comes first)?<BR>
<BR>
> > In the situation I mentioned the Tigress was blockading the <BR>
> > planet.<BR>
<BR>
> >> Problem #6 - Easy defense. Seed the jump points with hundreds of thousands<BR>
> >> of 1 gram BB's (lead should work fine - and they will double as sinkers for<BR>
> >> you fishermen). Each BB that smacked into your scout ship would do:<BR>
> >> 1/2*M*v^2 or, 1/2* 1 grams * 150000000 meters per second ^2 or about<BR>
> >> 11,250,000,000 Mega joules of damage, or about a pen of 14,000,000 in FFS.<BR>
<BR>
> > The Tigress does not know where you will show up. Your Scout<BR>
> > ship is small. How many 1 gram BB's will it take to mine that<BR>
> > much space? How many 1 gram BB'S can the Tigress's sub craft<BR>
> > deploy at what speed?<BR>
<BR>
> Let's say that your ship has a cross section area of 10 square meters<BR>
> in the direction it is travelling. You need to travel from the 100<BR>
> diameter limit, on side to the 100 diameter limit on the other side of<BR>
> the planet. <BR>
> Let's call the *average* path length 100 diameters. <BR>
<BR>
These sound like reasonable assumptions.<BR>
<BR>
> For an earth sized world, that's 1.4e9 meters. Times 10 square meters =<BR>
> 14e9 m^3. That's the volume "swept" by your ship on a given pass.<BR>
> A quick calc says that it'll take about 100e15 BBs to be "certain" that<BR>
> you'd hit one. That's 100e9 tonnes of BBs. If we go for 1 mg "dust"<BR>
> that drops it to 100e6 tonnes of dust. But the pen drops to "only"<BR>
> 14,000. <BR>
<BR>
100e9 tons of dust is a bit more than the blockading ships<BR>
can reasonably be expected to lay. (Although a Darrian ship <BR>
with a repulsor might be able to do better).<BR>
<BR>
> Drop the weight to microgram, and it takes 100e3 tonnes. And the pen is<BR>
> only 14. Slight detail. They don't *have* to bring it. Because that's<BR>
> likely about what the *natural* occurence of particles that size is.<BR>
> Hell, particles that size may be *more* common. <BR>
<BR>
Given that (in MT) spaceship hulls have a minimum armor<BR>
value of 40 anyway a Pen 14 hit won't matter. It will be<BR>
a zero penetration hit against the ships hull. Moreover<BR>
in the example we are discussing we have 1,000 Scout Ships.<BR>
The loss of some (or even most) of these ships will be justified<BR>
if they can destroy the 1,200 times as expensive, 2,000 times<BR>
the crew Tigress.<BR>
<BR>
Therefore according to your own calculations we probably<BR>
want to use 100 e4 tons of 10 microgram dust with a Pen of<BR>
140. This will result in high penetration hits against<BR>
the scout ships. How long will it take to lay said dust?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:45:59 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
> > In MT the distance you appear from your target depends on<BR>
> > how well you make your Astrogation roll. Since jump duration<BR>
> > is highly variable but this does not affect how far away from<BR>
> > your target your ship appears it seems likely to me that when<BR>
> > you jump you are targeting not an exact location but rather<BR>
> > a location relative to the planets gravity well.<BR>
> > Otherwise if you made a six day jump than you would appear <BR>
> > where the planet would be in a day and if you made an eight<BR>
> > day jump you would appear where the planet was a day ago. Since <BR>
> > this is not how jumps work in Traveller than it seems to me<BR>
> > that the Astogator's task is to target a gravinometric location<BR>
> > not a spatial one.<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry, but the rules actually don't say one way or the other. <BR>
<BR>
Yes they do.<BR>
<BR>
MT Imperial Encyclopedia p 93 Starship Operating procedures<BR>
<BR>
" 10 Emerge from Jumpspace<BR>
<BR>
The ship emerges from jumpspace. the ship emerges at the<BR>
limit of the gravity well (at about 100 diameters out) of<BR>
the destination world that the navigator designated in jump<BR>
preparation."<BR>
<BR>
So as I have quoted a six day jump = emerge at 100 diameters.<BR>
A seven day jump = emerge at 100 diameters. An eight day<BR>
jump = emerge at 100 diameters.<BR>
<BR>
Given that the solar system moves during this time the ship <BR>
either must be able to hit a moving target or set things up<BR>
ahead of time so that physical location at time X will be<BR>
the 100 diameter limit and your physical location at time<BR>
X = 48 hours will be 100 diameters from wherever the planet<BR>
or star has moved to.<BR>
<BR>
> That may not be the way *you* play it, but frankly,<BR>
> playing it any other way makes *less* sense.<BR>
<BR>
It's what the rules say to do.<BR>
<BR>
> Sure, you jump for where the planet will be if your jump takes the<BR>
> "average" time. At worst, you've added some hours to the time it takes<BR>
> you to reach orbit. <BR>
<BR>
Not according to MT rules you don't.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 01:49:36 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Cutlass Declaration <BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I would propose the old British model for officers' sidearms (blade and<BR>
> gun):  "The marine officer shall, at his own expense, purchase cutlass and<BR>
> pistol as part of his uniform kit.  Said cutlass to conform to standards as<BR>
> specified by office of the commandant of the Imperial Marine Corps or<BR>
> equivalent body, and said pistol to be of good quality and firing the<BR>
> regulation ammunition."<BR>
<BR>
Than why don't more Maine officers have cutlass and pistol<BR>
when they muster out?<BR>
<BR>
Canon does not say that ex Marine officers have (or even usually <BR>
have) these items. How do you explain the dichotomy?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:09:19 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Fix Bayonets! (was RE: Cutlasses)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]<BR>
> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 6:30 AM<BR>
><BR>
> on 6/22/00 6:06 PM, DaveShayne at daveshayne@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > According to the book "The Sharp End" (by someone who's name I can't<BR>
> > recall of the top of my head) during the Russo-Japanese in <BR>
> the fighting<BR>
> > around Port Arthur both sides infantry ran out of <BR>
> ammunition at about the<BR>
> > same time. Even though both armies were equipped with bayonettes<BR>
> > the troops decided to throw rocks at each other rather than close to<BR>
> > hand to hand combat. No mention was made regarding the lethality<BR>
> > of the wounds attributed to this unorthodox attack.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Dave Shayne<BR>
> <BR>
> The same story is reported in Col. Grossman's excellent book <BR>
> "On Killing".<BR>
> If you remember who wrote "The Sharp End", let me know, It's <BR>
> on my must read<BR>
> list.  Reading "Soldiers" by Keagan just now.<BR>
> <BR>
> Tod<BR>
<BR>
I'm reading 'A Bridge too Far' by Cornelius Ryan at the moment. Although<BR>
I am aware of the nature of bayonet charges often leading to one side or<BR>
the other 'strategically withdrawing with prudent alacrity', I was<BR>
astounded by the number of references to the British Para's fixing<BR>
bayonets & charging. It appears to be deeply ingrained in the Para<BR>
psyche, given their bayonet charges in the Falklands & (IIRC) the Gulf.<BR>
<BR>
In one incident during Arnhem, the landing ground had been partially<BR>
overrun by Germans, so in order to clear the way for the second wave due<BR>
to be dropped at any moment the outnumbered Para's infiltrated the woods<BR>
the Germans were holding, fixed bayonets, and charged!<BR>
<BR>
So far I'm about halfway through the book, and there have been about 5<BR>
mentions of seperate bayonet charges by the British, and none for the<BR>
Americans or Germans... And we're only on day 3!<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:44:15 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
"N.I.C.Bradbeer" <N.I.C.Bradbeer@durham.ac.uk> wrote:<BR>
>Phil Kitching wrote:<BR>
>> However, it's difficult to design a laser that a fighter can use which<BR>
>> delivers much damage beyond 100,000km (or a meson bay that can damage<BR>
>> anything with a meson screen at any range)<BR>
><BR>
>[CAVEAT: Maybe we're using different design rules, in which case what we<BR>
>can achieve will be very different, but]<BR>
><BR>
>I have a 20-ton fighter designed under FFS1 rules which carries a spinal<BR>
>X-Ray laser with an effective range of about 20 hexes (around 600,000<BR>
>km) and which can force a critical hit on any ship under 1000 tonnes<BR>
>with less than AV:150 armour. I'm not aware of any published designs of<BR>
>that size which exceed AV:150.<BR>
<BR>
I never really got the hang of Pen vs Armour. Then again, I skipped<BR>
from High Guard on to FF&S2, so perhaps that's to be expected.<BR>
<BR>
Still, AV:150 doesn't sound a lot for a warship, even a mere 400t SDB.<BR>
<BR>
>I grant you, the fighter is pretty much wrapped around the laser.<BR>
<BR>
not exactly a standard turret as per High Guard, then?<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 06:41:47 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Cutlass Declaration <BR>
<BR>
on 6/23/00 2:49 AM, Peter Newman at pnewman@gci.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
>> I would propose the old British model for officers' sidearms (blade and<BR>
>> gun):  "The marine officer shall, at his own expense, purchase cutlass and<BR>
>> pistol as part of his uniform kit.  Said cutlass to conform to standards as<BR>
>> specified by office of the commandant of the Imperial Marine Corps or<BR>
>> equivalent body, and said pistol to be of good quality and firing the<BR>
>> regulation ammunition."<BR>
> <BR>
> Than why don't more Maine officers have cutlass and pistol<BR>
> when they muster out?<BR>
> <BR>
> Canon does not say that ex Marine officers have (or even usually<BR>
> have) these items. How do you explain the dichotomy?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The skill or the physical object?<BR>
If we're talking the object, who says they have to muster out with it?<BR>
Maybe it's tradition to "pass it on" to new officers, or it get sold. Very<BR>
few police officers or military troops are gun enthusiasts.  To the<BR>
majority, their weapon is just a tool of the trade, no longer needed when<BR>
they retire.  Everyone I know who went through army boot camp was issued<BR>
uniforms, yet most of those same people no longer have them (including me).<BR>
<BR>
I don't think Marc etc al tried to notate every single aspect of life in<BR>
Traveller.  There is no mention of belly buttons in traveller.  There is no<BR>
roll to determine inny or outy. As for the marines, there is no TO&E that I<BR>
am aware of, and thus not canon in so far as what specific weapons the<BR>
marines use, or how it is procured.<BR>
<BR>
Even the use of cutlass in service is only 'implied'. Canon does not say<BR>
that all marines are neutered on joining the service, but it doesn't rule<BR>
that out either.  I was mere suggesting the old British model of sidearms<BR>
for officers, not trying to pass it off a holy writ.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:59:20 -0400<BR>
From: rgd@infinet.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 09:31:32PM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> on 6/22/00 4:24 PM, Brian Jenkins at Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com<BR>
> wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > As a long time roleplayer of traveller and others I like the cutlass and how<BR>
> > it works in traveller.  I mean.....this is traveller man!  And Marines use<BR>
> > cutlasses in traveller!  I know it doesn't make sense but sometimes it just<BR>
> > shouldn't.  And part of the allure of traveller are things like these.  I<BR>
> > could never begin to debate people on this since they are far more<BR>
> > knowledgeable.  I just know one thing.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > IMTU Marines use cutlasses.<BR>
<BR>
There are historic precedents for cultures choosing weapons that may<BR>
not make sense militarily.  I just finished reading "The Barbarians"<BR>
by Tim Newark about the various peoples that were known as<BR>
"barbarians" by the Roman Empire and the later Byzantines, i.e. the<BR>
Dark Ages.  He made a long point that while the Romans and other<BR>
groups (the Huns, Mongols, and other steppe warriors) used the bow to<BR>
great effect, especially from mounts, the Germanic tribes greatly<BR>
disdained the use of the bow when they certainly had the knowledge and<BR>
materials.  The 'proper' weapons for a warrior were sword and spear<BR>
(or ax,etc.).  Their non-use of the bow was a "purely cultural<BR>
affectation" - it was not "manly".  That view greatly influenced the<BR>
formation of the image of the chivalric mounted knight that used lance<BR>
and sword, leaving the bow for the ignoble.  <BR>
<BR>
I would think it quite possible for the use of cutlasses to be a<BR>
similar cultural prediliction.  (And I'm sure we can come up with<BR>
numerous examples of things we do that don't make sense but are "just<BR>
because it's what we do".)  Personally, I think they (and other<BR>
martial arts) can be effective and would be used (IMTU), maybe not<BR>
making complete military sense (not quite as cheap or effective as<BR>
other weapons/tactics), but are part of a different culture - one more<BR>
gallant and heroic as Tod points out below.<BR>
<BR>
Also, I've been studying the Filipino martial art of Arnis/Escrima<BR>
(though I'm only to the point that after a fight I could *maybe* tell<BR>
you what an experienced escrimador had just done to me... :) and I'm<BR>
impressed by what damage can be done by one or two sticks. (As<BR>
an interesting link my instructor pointed me to The Dog Brothers<BR>
http://www.dogbrothers.com - no I don't think I'll get to that, um,<BR>
intensity, but the practice is fun.)<BR>
I wonder what kind of martial arts the Vilani came up with...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> We military buff look at things in the harsh light of modern combat.  20th<BR>
> century warfare is a soulless machine that chews up men and spits out<BR>
> wreckage.  There is not glory or honor or gallantry.  It's just a brutal<BR>
> business all about who can kill and maim fastest.<BR>
> <BR>
> Traveller is about adventure and heroes and the dashing former captain of<BR>
> marines tossing aside his sidearm and drawing his blade, giving the enemy a<BR>
> fair fight because while the other guy may not be a man of honor "by god,<BR>
> sir, I am!".<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks for reminding us what it's all about.<BR>
<BR>
Very well put!<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rob Davenport<BR>
rgd@bigfoot.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:28:35 -0400<BR>
From: rgd@infinet.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Killing up close (wasMarine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 09:01:55PM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> that they are so much more 'antiseptic'.  Col. Grossman disusses this in his<BR>
> book "On Killing".  Humans have a natural aversion to killing their fellow<BR>
> man.  And the closer and more human the target, the harder it is.<BR>
<BR>
After reading "The Barbarians" about the 9AD-1453AD history, I came<BR>
away wondering how different were the attitude and culture of those<BR>
peoples that seemed to kill with ease and little remorse or other<BR>
consequences - even relishing it for the perceived glory of victorious<BR>
combat.  Have we changed that much?  How much would the culture change<BR>
in 3000 years - either more humanitarian (or maybe closer to Niven's<BR>
Known Space - outlawing martial arts) or less, i.e. more barbaric (if<BR>
the enemy were faceless in combat armor, or alien 'bugs' or<BR>
propagandized to seem that way)?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rob Davenport<BR>
rgd (at) infinet (dot) com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:31:39 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2643<BR>
<BR>
Tod says,<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, the US army eliminated bayonet training from basic/AIT for quite a<BR>
>  number of years, and only reintroduced it in the early 80s as a moral<BR>
>  building exercise.  <BR>
<BR>
Marc says he _gave_ bayonet training, but remember what I said about when <BR>
Marc said this originally? He was talking about his time in service, which <BR>
was in the late 60s. Several veterans ranging fromWWII to Desert Storm have <BR>
told me that they only used the bayonet to cut open ration containers.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:38:49 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Real Men<BR>
<BR>
> We military buff look at things in the harsh light of modern combat.  20th<BR>
>  century warfare is a soulless machine that chews up men and spits out<BR>
>  wreckage.  There is not glory or honor or gallantry.  It's just a brutal<BR>
>  business all about who can kill and maim fastest.<BR>
<BR>
ROne of my favorite movies is _The Wind and the Lion*_ and Sean Connery <BR>
(playing a Scottish Berber) delivers a _GREAT_ speech (paraphrased because I <BR>
haven't seen the movie in years):<BR>
<BR>
"Real men fight with swords, so they can look each other in the eye . . . <BR>
sometimes, this is not possible, and for that, there is the rifle. But the <BR>
Europeans have guns that fire many bullets at once, and rend the Earth <BR>
promiscously . . . this is not war -- it is slaughter."<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
* Sean Connery, Candice Bergen (back when she was a babe -- gawd that woman <BR>
looks good with a rifle in her hand), and Brian Keith in what I believe to be <BR>
his greatest performance -- Teddy Roosevelt. If you call yourself a military <BR>
buff and have not seen this movie, you are not trying hard enough.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:52:25 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: MoH<BR>
<BR>
> Never underestimate the power of raw courage.<BR>
<BR>
Concurr. For additional interesting reading, look up the citations for the <BR>
two MoH's awarded to medical corpsmen during WWII, or the only MoH given to <BR>
an enlisted air force crewmwmber ("Snuffy" Smith, I think). <BR>
<BR>
VC citations provide equivalent inspiration, I'm sure, but I have no ready <BR>
acess to them.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:13:50 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Running out of Ammo<BR>
<BR>
FWIW, I can't recall running out of ammo in a regular Trav game. I used to<BR>
use the Trav rules (of various stripes) to play adventures set in the Old<BR>
West, and we would occasionally get low on ammo. I solved this problem by<BR>
having my gunslinger character, when he knew he was going into a fight,<BR>
carry a double holster rig for his .45s (NOT to fire two guns at once, which<BR>
nobody did, but to have a loaded gun when the first ran out) as well as a<BR>
holdout .22 and a bootgun derringer. (This isn't as unrealistic as it<BR>
sounds. I once read about a gunslinger who was found to be carrying 17 guns<BR>
in various places on his body!)<BR>
<BR>
Ah, those were the glorious days of CT combat! Take out the guy with the<BR>
shotgun first (no armor at medium range and 4D of damage?!), actually using<BR>
the drawing rules...When I was running a D&D campaign, I once ran a Trav Old<BR>
West game as a change of pace. The scenario was loosely based on "The Good,<BR>
the Bad, and the Ugly" in that half of the group had half the location of<BR>
the buried gold, and the other half had the rest of the info. After a<BR>
three-way firefight at the end, the PCs won and had all the gold lying<BR>
around them, leading to my finest "deviant GM" moment:<BR>
<BR>
Moe (celebrating, arms upraised): Chris, we won!<BR>
GM: You know Chris, you still have your gun out...<BR>
<BR>
Needless to say, only one PC got out alive...<BR>
<BR>
Fred "You talkin' to me" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:24:41 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
<BR>
<Tod> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
At one time I was a knife maker (pre-children), and sold many bladed weapons<BR>
at scifi/fantasy conventions.  I always found it amusing to hear from people<BR>
who carried a knife for protection and saying things like "I could never<BR>
shoot someone".  People who obviously have no idea of the brutality of blade<BR>
combat.<BR>
</Tod><BR>
<BR>
Yah. In aikido, we did jo (staff; basically, a big stick) and bokken (wooden<BR>
sword). I liked bokken, because we were learning Japanese fencing; but I<BR>
didn't like it, because, unlike jo, where you can effectively parry forever,<BR>
sword combat is all about setting up that one killing blow. Sooner or later<BR>
*somebody* is going to die, usually quickly and nastily...I remember seeing<BR>
a special once on weapons where they talked about corpses dug up from<BR>
Bosworth field, and described the truly horrific wounds received from axes,<BR>
swords, spears, crossbow bolts...<BR>
<BR>
<Tod><BR>
Even with guns, the vast majority of troops don't actually shoot at the<BR>
enemy, if they fire at all.  SLA Marshall and others documented that only<BR>
10-15% of infantryman even fire their weapons in combat, even despite<BR>
imminent threat of harm.<BR>
</Tod><BR>
<BR>
Have you heard the story of how the US Ordnance people examined rifles lying<BR>
around on the Gettysburg battlefield? Some of them had been loaded like 17<BR>
times! (I think the average was over 3 times.) What would happen is that<BR>
they would see the enemy, load, not fire, calm down, then load again when<BR>
the enemy came near (being muzzle loaders, they couldn't check their loads.)<BR>
<BR>
<Tod><BR>
actually, 30% hit ratios are pretty good.  IIRC, national average for police<BR>
shooting (non SWAT) is more like 15% hits.  Which is way better than<BR>
military rates.  Of course, most criminals don't make effective use of<BR>
cover, or have supporting suppressive fire.<BR>
</Tod><BR>
<BR>
I once read a story about two guys in Tombstone, AZ, during the 1880s<BR>
getting into a firefight from less than 15 feet away and emptying their<BR>
revolvers without hitting each other once!<BR>
<BR>
<Tod> (In re the story of how my name became unspellable)<BR>
Thanks for a huge chuckle, despite a really dreary day of coding.  I hate<BR>
having to write admin interfaces for idiots!<BR>
</Tod><BR>
<BR>
Every database project I do has that point where I say, "Next time I write a<BR>
program, no users!"<BR>
I'm trying to do more freelance writing, but economics dictate I remain in<BR>
computing, for a while at least...<BR>
<BR>
Fred "ODBC Connection Error" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:18:17 -0400<BR>
From: howard.anderson@psu.edu (Cheng Tseng)<BR>
Subject: Re: Real Men<BR>
<BR>
>> We military buff look at things in the harsh light of modern combat.  20th<BR>
>>  century warfare is a soulless machine that chews up men and spits out<BR>
>>  wreckage.  There is not glory or honor or gallantry.  It's just a brutal<BR>
>>  business all about who can kill and maim fastest.<BR>
<BR>
Brutal, yes.  Soulless, yes.  But for some reason, I always think of what<BR>
VADM Jesse Oldendorf said about how, when you have the strength in war, use<BR>
it.  "Never give a sucker an even break."<BR>
<BR>
>ROne of my favorite movies is _The Wind and the Lion*_ and Sean Connery <BR>
>(playing a Scottish Berber) delivers a _GREAT_ speech (paraphrased because I <BR>
>haven't seen the movie in years):<BR>
><BR>
>"Real men fight with swords, so they can look each other in the eye . . . <BR>
>sometimes, this is not possible, and for that, there is the rifle. But the <BR>
>Europeans have guns that fire many bullets at once, and rend the Earth <BR>
>promiscously . . . this is not war -- it is slaughter."<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
There's a lament from a Mameluke in John Keegan's _A History of Warfare_,<BR>
which goes nicely in the spirit of things.  Back then, the issue was over<BR>
formation versus individual combat.<BR>
<BR>
C.T.<BR>
<BR>
"If water is suppose to be so good for you, why is it so tasteless?"<BR>
Cheng Tseng<BR>
<BR>
http://www.searchcactus.com/member/welcome.asp?7024 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:40:42<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
At 09:52 PM 6/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>on 6/22/00 5:48 PM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>As an interesting aside, army snipers in Viet Nam averaged 1.67 rounds fired<BR>
>per CONFIRMED enemy kill (i.e put you boot on a body).  I believe the Marine<BR>
>had a slightly higher ratio, although they tended to engage targets at<BR>
>longer ranges.<BR>
<BR>
Copnfirmed kill can mean other things besides physically being able to<BR>
check the body, which snipers rarely have the luxury of doing.  Usually, if<BR>
two observers see a hit that clearly killed of fatally wounded the target,<BR>
it counts.<BR>
<BR>
>Your players need to learn about tactical reloads.  Never shoot you gun dry<BR>
>(unless you don't have a choice).  Whenever there is a lull, top off or swap<BR>
>magazines.<BR>
<BR>
Amen! After training excercises I was always fishing out magazines with<BR>
three or four rounds from my cargo pockets.  Everytime I got low and had a<BR>
second, I slapped in a fresh magazine.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:41:32<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
At 10:25 PM 6/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>But - I have 2 armchair military experts.. it is far beyond me to tell them<BR>
>_anything_ ;>... they just seem to get shot a lot. They did learn the cover<BR>
>thing tho..<BR>
<BR>
Got ACQ?  It's great for making the mighty humble.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:49:06<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2643<BR>
<BR>
At 10:31 AM 6/23/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Marc says he _gave_ bayonet training, but remember what I said about when <BR>
>Marc said this originally? He was talking about his time in service, which <BR>
>was in the late 60s. Several veterans ranging fromWWII to Desert Storm have <BR>
>told me that they only used the bayonet to cut open ration containers.<BR>
<BR>
Then there is the Bill Mauldin cartoon showing the two Army cooks, one of<BR>
whom is holding a M1 and a bayonet.  He's saying with a surprised look on<BR>
his face:<BR>
<BR>
"I'll be dawgoned! Did ya know this can opener fits on th' end of a rifle?"<BR>
<BR>
This sort of thing has been going on a *long* time.<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"<BR>
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:27:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Combat Pistol (was: shipboard combat)<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
>on 6/22/00 4:48 PM, Rodney Basler at rgb@odetics.com wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> Now the latest crop of games score on ammo consumption...silly me, I was<BR>
>> taught to double-tap.  Hard habit to break  :)<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
>Mozambique drill.  Two to the chest, one to the head.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Damn straight, though I was responding more to the (was it the "El<BR>
Presidente"?) drill.  Three targets:  three double-taps from left to right,<BR>
reload, repeat. (and yes, it was a .45 ... 89 years and still going strong).<BR>
I was taught that the Mozambique drill was for engaging targets that<BR>
(suprise!) were wearing body armor.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler - COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:37:08 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen wrote,<BR>
>Yah. In aikido, we did jo (staff; basically, a big stick) and bokken<BR>
(wooden<BR>
sword). I liked bokken, because we were learning Japanese fencing; but I<BR>
didn't like it, because, unlike jo, where you can effectively parry forever,<BR>
sword combat is all about setting up that one killing blow. Sooner or later<BR>
*somebody* is going to die, usually quickly and nastily...I remember seeing<BR>
a special once on weapons where they talked about corpses dug up from<BR>
Bosworth field, and described the truly horrific wounds received from axes,<BR>
swords, spears, crossbow bolts...<<BR>
<BR>
How do you parry forever with a jo? Bo fighting is just as described bokken,<BR>
setting up a killing move. Slightly cleaner since you are "just" breaking a<BR>
neck instead of slicing one open, but still the same focus.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:47:25 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
<BR>
On looking at old files, it appears that population digits were completely<BR>
randomly assigned, with equal probability 1-9.  That's an inane curve given<BR>
the log nature of population codes, and I totally ignored them in my <BR>
mapping programs.  I was thinking of remapping as follows:<BR>
P  Mult<BR>
1: 1.00-1.29<BR>
2: 1.29-1.67<BR>
3: 1.67-2.16<BR>
4: 2.16-2.79<BR>
5: 2.79-3.60<BR>
6: 3.60-4.66<BR>
7: 4.66-6.02<BR>
8: 6.02-7.78<BR>
9: 7.78-10.0<BR>
(these numbers are 10^((P-1)/9) to 10^(P/9))<BR>
<BR>
Comments?  Seem reasonable?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2645<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2646</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 23 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2646<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Marine cutlass<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2644<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2645<BR>
Re: Water on Mars<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
RE: Marine cutlass<BR>
Jo Combat (Was: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2645<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2644<BR>
Re: Marines<BR>
Re: REVIEW: Alien Races 3<BR>
Re: Water on Mars<BR>
RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2640<BR>
Re: Jo Combat and Marines<BR>
Re: Jo Combat (Was: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
Re: "Cutlass and Blaster, Advance!"<BR>
Re: Killing up close (wasMarine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:51:11 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
>My reasoning was that the Marines are coming into the ship wearing<BR>
>battledress. You arm to fight yourself. Having one hand on a cutlass when<BR>
>your enemy pops up with a fusion weapon could be very *bad*<BR>
 <BR>
	Well, in CT a fusion gun cannot engage targets at Short range or<BR>
	closer.  That means that having a FGMP-15 in your hands when your<BR>
	enemy pops up with a cutlass could be very *bad*<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:51:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2644<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
>Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>All you need to do to make it more realistic is force your players to use<BR>
>suppresive fire which can be done merely by having them hit every time they<BR>
>leave cover if they don't.<BR>
><BR>
>Most roleplaying fire combats are extremely unrealistic becasuse of the<BR>
>small number fo shots fired. This is because firstly, the enemy don't fire<BR>
>enough at the characters. This is because a)the GM can't bothered resolving<BR>
>every likley shot, & b) the GM is usually far too "nice" to the players<BR>
>because he doesn't want them to all die quickly.<BR>
><BR>
>Secondly, players do not act like most people do in a fire combat, which is<BR>
>to fill anything that looks dangerous with lead.<BR>
><BR>
	Does anyone else remember a game put out by FASA way back in the '80s<BR>
called "Behind Enemy Lines"?  One of the neat little bits in the rules on<BR>
battles was "Random Fire."  It was a table cross referencing the number of<BR>
soldiers firing with the rate of ammo expendature, resulting in a 'weight of<BR>
fire' value (e.g.  light, moderate, heavy, etc.)  This translated to random<BR>
hits on the characters.  Very light fire would produce a certain chance of a<BR>
hit if the character was moving in the open, while the most intense fire<BR>
would produce hits unless the character was all but buried in a bunker (due<BR>
to ricochets and secondary fragments).  If the characters started shooting<BR>
back randomly, and at a higher rate than the enemy, more and more of the<BR>
enemy soldiers would start ducking for cover and the level of fire would<BR>
drop.  The reverse was also true :)<BR>
	I snagged a copy of the rules and have always wanted to adapt them to<BR>
Traveller combat.  As the expression goes "It's not the one with your name<BR>
on it that you have to worry about, it is the thousand others addressed to<BR>
'to whom it may concern'"<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:55:38 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
Moin Leonard Erickson,<BR>
<BR>
  I got both mails.<BR>
<BR>
> >   1 watt of power is 1 joule * 1 second of pulse.<BR>
> <BR>
> You've got it backwards. E=P*T. <BR>
<BR>
  do I have a error of misstranslation ?<BR>
<BR>
  Kraft/Force		F	N=(kg*m)/(s*s)	newton<BR>
  Arbeit/Work		W	J=N*m		joule<BR>
  Leistung/Power	P	W=J/s		watt<BR>
<BR>
> So 10 MW for 1 sec gives a 10 MJ pulse. But to get a 10 MJ pulse that's<BR>
> only one *milli*second long, you need a thousand times the power. 10 GW<BR>
> for 1 ms = 1O MJ. And so on. <BR>
> <BR>
> In short, for the same *energy* in a shorter pulse, the *power* level<BR>
> has to go up in direct proportion to the shortness of the pulse.<BR>
<BR>
  *energy* in my book means kg*(m/s)^2 - so if I reduce the duration<BR>
  a single laser pulse, I would need less not more power to feed into<BR>
  the HPG before the laser can shoot. But if I want the *power* be<BR>
  constant, and reduce the duration of the pulse, the pulse would<BR>
  contain more energy for a shorter time.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 03:16:05 +1000<BR>
From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2645<BR>
<BR>
- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BFDD8A.950632E0<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR>
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<BR>
[> ]  Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Loren wrote:<BR>
> VC citations provide equivalent inspiration, I'm sure, but I have no =<BR>
ready<BR>
[> ] =20<BR>
>  acess to them.<BR>
<BR>
Try http://www.awm.gov.au/, the Australian War memorial.<BR>
<BR>
From their website:<BR>
"The Victoria Cross has been awarded to 96 Australians since 1900. The =<BR>
award is the Commonwealth's highest for bravery. The crosses are cast by =<BR>
hand from bronze cannon captured from Russia during the Crimean War and =<BR>
bear the inscription, "For Valour". The Memorial's collection of 55 =<BR>
Victoria Crosses, displayed in the Hall of Valour, is the largest in the =<BR>
world. Most of the medals have been donated to the Memorial by =<BR>
recipients or their families."<BR>
<BR>
Do a site search - hopefully this will turn up something.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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XB8AcC5uEUDNLKJ+SuAfkWp3HbMs8odiP1w0YUVAcGN1VGDfBbBUYCywMuUiQGYDEB/A/1QjBCBG<BR>
wVLRM8I7wEdhNUF/SAED8CkQURE0gVQyKHBsfyxwBRApECGARKEJwFqBdMZ5T1AUgnMxNxvFC7Yv<BR>
L48wlCXbFiEAbbAAAAMAEBADAAAAAwAREAAAAAADAIAQ/////0AABzBgey0xNt2/AUAACDBgey0x<BR>
Nt2/AQsAAIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAOFAAAAAAAAAwACgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYA<BR>
AAAAEIUAAAAAAAADAAWACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABShQAAtw0AAB4AJYAIIAYAAAAAAMAA<BR>
AAAAAABGAAAAAFSFAAABAAAABAAAADguMAADACaACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAA<BR>
AAsAL4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAwgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAA<BR>
EYUAAAAAAAADADKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAB4AQYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAA<BR>
AABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAEKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEA<BR>
AAAAAAAAHgBDgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4APQABAAAABQAA<BR>
AFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AABUqA==<BR>
<BR>
- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BFDD8A.950632E0--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:25:50 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Water on Mars<BR>
<BR>
David Summers writes:<BR>
>>Re-write the UWP, they've discovered evidence of water, *liquid* water, on<BR>
>>the surface of Mars!<BR>
>Just for accuracy (yeah, I know...) there isn't liquid water<BR>
>standing on Mars.  It seeps out and evaporates.....<BR>
<BR>
	Well, there is some evidence that this is not always so.  See<BR>
<BR>
	http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/mars_water000622.html<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:27:34 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
Tsykoduk writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
I ran a cool GT fire fight in a werehouse<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I am so sorry, but I can't resist:  did you have the fight<BR>
	in a guy that turns into a house on a full moon?<BR>
<BR>
	:)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:34:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
At 12:51 PM 6/23/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
>>My reasoning was that the Marines are coming into the ship wearing<BR>
>>battledress. You arm to fight yourself. Having one hand on a cutlass when<BR>
>>your enemy pops up with a fusion weapon could be very *bad*<BR>
> <BR>
>	Well, in CT a fusion gun cannot engage targets at Short range or<BR>
>	closer.  That means that having a FGMP-15 in your hands when your<BR>
>	enemy pops up with a cutlass could be very *bad*<BR>
<BR>
In GT, that Marine has a ST of about 70.  Snap, Crackle, and, optionally,<BR>
*Pop*.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:55:42 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Jo Combat (Was: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
"Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>>How do you parry forever with a jo? Bo fighting is just as described<BR>
bokken,<BR>
setting up a killing move. Slightly cleaner since you are "just" breaking a<BR>
neck instead of slicing one open, but still the same focus.<<<<BR>
<BR>
True, true, but you can parry a lot longer with a jo. It's a function of the<BR>
weapon itself--it's longer (we used nonstandard jos that were longer than<BR>
average, though not as long as a bo), not as imminently lethal (at least,<BR>
not as lethal as a sword) and the parries are much more effective than sword<BR>
parries. (We're talking Japanese swordwork here, which doesn't involve a<BR>
whole lot of parrying, at least in the sense of, say, European fencing.)<BR>
<BR>
As a quick example, the kata we learned for sword had eight 'counts,' all<BR>
strikes. The jo kata had *32*, and several were parries.<BR>
<BR>
Mostly, though, it was a feeling I got. Sword work was all about killing in<BR>
one blow, right away, usually right after your opponent took a strike. Jo<BR>
work was more involved and went on longer. This is all IMVHO and YMMV--I<BR>
didn't study it long enough to get to the fancy killing parts. It was, after<BR>
all, aikido, and therefore defensive to begin with. I don't know too much<BR>
about karate or kung fu staffwork.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Idunno--if Marines train with cutlasses, does the Army train with<BR>
pikes :)<BR>
<BR>
Fred "5th Kyu" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:02:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2645<BR>
<BR>
>From: rgd@infinet.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: Killing up close (wasMarine Cutlass)<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
>After reading "The Barbarians" about the 9AD-1453AD history, I came<BR>
>away wondering how different were the attitude and culture of those<BR>
>peoples that seemed to kill with ease and little remorse or other<BR>
>consequences - even relishing it for the perceived glory of victorious<BR>
>combat.  Have we changed that much?  How much would the culture change<BR>
>in 3000 years <snip>[?]<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	I have frequently heard (on the news or in print) bereaved mothers sobbing<BR>
over the loss of a child and stating something to the effect of "You expect<BR>
to lose your parents, you can prepare for that, but you never expect to bury<BR>
your child..."  While tragic, and while I feel for them, I am also struck by<BR>
how much our mentality has changed.  Three short generations, still in the<BR>
living memory of some of our grandparents, child mortality was a fact of<BR>
life.  My grandfather nearly died during the influenza epidemic of 1919; my<BR>
wife's grandmother lost two children during the Dust Bowl migration of the<BR>
1930's.  What was commonplace ... what IS STILL commonplace in most of the<BR>
rest of the world, is now treated my the "First World" as a horrible<BR>
anomoly.<BR>
	I begin to suspect that all role-playing aside, we will have less in common<BR>
with our PCs some 3000 years hence than we do with our 'barbarian'<BR>
forebearers.<BR>
	Didn't Heinlein's _Have_Spacesuit,_Will_Travel_ have something to that<BR>
effect with the 'humanity on trial' scene at the end of the book?<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:59:07 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2644<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> on 6/22/00 6:06 PM, DaveShayne at daveshayne@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > According to the book "The Sharp End" [snip anecdote]<BR>
><BR>
> The same story is reported in Col. Grossman's excellent book "On Killing".<BR>
> If you remember who wrote "The Sharp End", let me know, It's on my must read<BR>
> list.  Reading "Soldiers" by Keagan just now.<BR>
<BR>
Since Tod plugged "On Killing" a couple of times in my last two digests, <BR>
I just thought I'd anti-plug: many people, including myself, believe that<BR>
Col. Grossman has a political agenda which might interfere with what <BR>
statistics he chooses to present, and how he presents them, and the <BR>
conclusions he draws from them.<BR>
<BR>
I don't want to start a flamewar on this, as it's a bit too close to the <BR>
gun control thread, but I am willing to discuss, cautiously, in more detail.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:24:18 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Marines<BR>
<BR>
Tad replies to Peter,<BR>
<BR>
> I don't think Marc etc al tried to notate every single aspect of life in<BR>
>  Traveller. <BR>
<BR>
We could not possibly have done so without driving ourselves insane. <BR>
<BR>
> As for the marines, there is no TO&E that I<BR>
>  am aware of, and thus not canon in so far as what specific weapons the<BR>
>  marines use, or how it is procured.<BR>
<BR>
Frank and I wrote a TO&E for Marine Task Forces which appeared in JTAS, and <BR>
which I expanded for use in GT Star Mercs, and which will appear in the <BR>
upcoming GT Ground Forces. I consider it canon, although you are free not to <BR>
if you want.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:30:28 +0100<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: REVIEW: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote,<BR>
> With GF safely in the hands of the Austin Mob, I could finally wander<BR>
> down to my FLGS and pick up AR3.  Here are my thoughts and opinions on<BR>
> the latest Alien book. [snip]<BR>
<BR>
I picked this up on my way home from work the day it arrived in my<BR>
FVLGS (they phone me when new GT material arrives 8-).  For various<BR>
reasons I have only read the Hiver section.<BR>
<BR>
Hivers are my favourite Traveller race and I have some pretty firm ideas<BR>
about them; I hated _Aliens of the Rim_. I'd skim-read the T:AR3<BR>
playtest files so I knew roughly what to expect, but still wasn't sure<BR>
how I'd feel about this new presentation.<BR>
<BR>
In fact I liked it a lot. There were some things I'd have done<BR>
differently (isn't there always?) and my version of the Za'tachk was<BR>
incompatible, but T:AR3 is self-consistent, playable and respectful of<BR>
the original source material. I agree with Doug's comments, and was<BR>
particularly pleased with the way they salvaged the good stuff from AotR<BR>
while ignoring the dross (the Ithklur write-up being the most extensive<BR>
example). Kudos to the authors.<BR>
<BR>
Having said that, there was one section that raised my blood pressure:<BR>
the character creation rules. I'll save my rant about this for another<BR>
time.<BR>
<BR>
A few other nits, none serious:<BR>
<BR>
1. The sidebar about regrowing limbs (p.7) implies that this is a more<BR>
   extensive ability than it appears to be from the section on regrowth<BR>
   in Alien Module 7. This sidebar seems to have been added post-<BR>
   playtest, otherwise I would have suggested some rewording, for<BR>
   example saying that adult Hivers need medical assistance to regrow<BR>
   anything larger than a finger.<BR>
<BR>
2. Requiring the use of eyestalk position/movements to form many words<BR>
   seems to me OTT. I'd have preferred to limit this to a role like<BR>
   intonation in English - where it is possible to communicate fully in<BR>
   a flat monotone but with reduced expressiveness.<BR>
<BR>
3. The language computers use keyboard input. I can't believe this is<BR>
   necessary for Hivers (the producers of the best electronics and<BR>
   computer equipment in known space), even with Traveller's primitive<BR>
   computer technology. OK, maybe they don't trust "voice" activation,<BR>
   but once you've hit the "translate" button there's no point in having<BR>
   to type what you say. My company already produces equipment that<BR>
   could generate a 3D virtual Hiver whose movements matched a live one<BR>
   (all the input you need for a translator), with no perceptible lag; I<BR>
   can't believe Hivers are incapable of producing a portable version.<BR>
   Especially since they pay 50 points for High Technology. Hmph. [1]<BR>
<BR>
TTFN,<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
<BR>
[1] Sorry, that slipped out. Consider it a sneak preview of my character<BR>
    creation rant... ;-)<BR>
 <BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) tg+ ru ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:43:30 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Water on Mars<BR>
<BR>
At 1:25 PM -0400 6/23/00, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>David Summers writes:<BR>
>  >>Re-write the UWP, they've discovered evidence of water, *liquid* water, on<BR>
>  >>the surface of Mars!<BR>
>  >Just for accuracy (yeah, I know...) there isn't liquid water<BR>
>  >standing on Mars.  It seeps out and evaporates.....<BR>
><BR>
>	Well, there is some evidence that this is not always so.  See<BR>
><BR>
>	http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/mars_water000622.html<BR>
><BR>
>Peez<BR>
<BR>
I should have explicitly stated that I was alking about current<BR>
water....<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:25:11 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: RE: [OT] Very old TSR stuff<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:05:51 -0400 (EDT), eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>On 06/21/00 at 07:49 PM,  Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>FWEEEEP! 5 yard penalty for misquote!<BR>
<BR>
>>The correct quote, assuming you want to induce C&C, is<BR>
<BR>
>>  "You're only as old as who you feel!"<BR>
<BR>
>Ha! Ha! When you get to be my age Jeff, you have to be careful<BR>
>*who* you feel or you'll get Lechery-1 added to your skill list.<BR>
><g><BR>
<BR>
<look class="blank"><BR>
You say this like it's a problem?<BR>
</look><BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:25:19 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2640<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:09:33 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:18:22 -0600<BR>
>From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
>Subject: Re: Vilani Fonts and Language <BR>
<BR>
>Fellow TMLers:<BR>
<BR>
>Just a thought.....<BR>
<BR>
>for a Vilani Lexicon, how 'bout using something like say<BR>
>Swahili as the base language?  Or some other unusual<BR>
>but concentrated vowel based earth language?<BR>
<BR>
>Just a thought.......<BR>
<BR>
A Vilani lexicon already exists, and the language generation<BR>
patterns (based on canonical and deuterocanonical material) are<BR>
largely compatible with Sumerian.  You can get the extant lexicon<BR>
by joining the Traveller-Culture list at eGroups, and then<BR>
downloading vil2.zip from the Files area for the list.<BR>
<BR>
As soon as Kenji reappears, I will begin to impugn him for a<BR>
cleaned-up grammer of Vilani.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:12:07 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Jo Combat and Marines<BR>
<BR>
Moin von Rammen,<BR>
<BR>
> As a quick example, the kata we learned for sword had eight 'counts,' all<BR>
> strikes. The jo kata had *32*, and several were parries.<BR>
<BR>
  I've done just the oposite - 3rd-kyu in kendo, a bit of akido and<BR>
  a 7kyu in go - I've not done any of em into dan grades.<BR>
<BR>
  Training in kendo is quick !soldier training! - the art will come<BR>
  year later - and soldiers should know how to kill quick. So half<BR>
  of the training was running the 'men' strike from above and parring<BR>
  this, e.g by a 'do' sidestep or a 'kitte' block. The goal was to<BR>
  implement a 'shock of impact' troops of that training will have<BR>
  to the enemy. - charging, crying, and aiming for a single strike,<BR>
  because the will be no second chance!<BR>
<BR>
  Akido is much better for situation, where the nasty guy does have<BR>
  a sword or dagger, and I have nothing but bare hand. So a stick has<BR>
  to become an exellent parring weapon.<BR>
<BR>
> Mostly, though, it was a feeling I got. Sword work was all about killing in<BR>
> one blow, right away, usually right after your opponent took a strike.<BR>
<BR>
  I would agree if sword work means military training in a regular armi!<BR>
  I wont agree for irrgular troops, where sworts work becomes an art.<BR>
<BR>
> Jo work was more involved and went on longer.<BR>
<BR>
  lets now talk about 'Jo Average' encounters 'Imperial Marines'.<BR>
<BR>
  I dont know your groups - but most trader captains, deceided that<BR>
  anybody who going on board will be searched for weapons, including<BR>
  him and the crew. Constraining security was important, think about<BR>
  all the expensive stuff that can be damaged using fireweapons or<BR>
  even energy weapons. Also several worlds constain weapon permits to<BR>
  a very closed group. So melee is quite often seen, imtu. Training in<BR>
  the cermonial weapon of the marines, certainly gives a benefig in<BR>
  the monthly rumble in the pub.<BR>
<BR>
  The work of the marines is not only to fight in heavy battledress.<BR>
  They are often seen in light body armor, carring a pistol and a<BR>
  cutlas as sidearms - this is often the case in cities where a monthly<BR>
  rumble in the pub is likely, and on other missions when they should<BR>
  look peacefull.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:19:09 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jo Combat (Was: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen wrote,<BR>
>True, true, but you can parry a lot longer with a jo. It's a function of<BR>
the<BR>
weapon itself--it's longer (we used nonstandard jos that were longer than<BR>
average, though not as long as a bo), not as imminently lethal (at least,<BR>
not as lethal as a sword) and the parries are much more effective than sword<BR>
parries. (We're talking Japanese swordwork here, which doesn't involve a<BR>
whole lot of parrying, at least in the sense of, say, European fencing.)<<BR>
<BR>
Right. I'm with you on this.<BR>
<BR>
>As a quick example, the kata we learned for sword had eight 'counts,' all<BR>
strikes. The jo kata had *32*, and several were parries.<<BR>
<BR>
The shortest bo kata I've done has to push 100 counts. About 10-15 blocks<BR>
almost all the rest strikes.  It has parries, but I've seen a recent piece<BR>
where the exact same parry motion is used as a wrist lock so now I'm<BR>
contemplating which they should be considered.<BR>
<BR>
>Mostly, though, it was a feeling I got. Sword work was all about killing in<BR>
one blow, right away, usually right after your opponent took a strike. Jo<BR>
work was more involved and went on longer. This is all IMVHO and YMMV--I<BR>
didn't study it long enough to get to the fancy killing parts. It was, after<BR>
all, aikido, and therefore defensive to begin with. I don't know too much<BR>
about karate or kung fu staffwork.<<BR>
<BR>
Ah. The karate I do is extremely violent in concept. All bo work begins with<BR>
a defensive move and we train to neutralize any bo attack, but bo<BR>
counter-attack is exceptionally aggressive. He attacks, you deflect, he dies<BR>
or is broken. That is likely the different view here.<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: Idunno--if Marines train with cutlasses, does the Army train with<BR>
pikes :)<<BR>
<BR>
That's what a bayonet is supposed to be. :)<BR>
<BR>
>"5th Kyu" <<BR>
<BR>
Cool. I have a friend heading for his Dan test soon in Aikido.<BR>
I'm 3rd Dan Okinawan Karate, Isshin Ryu.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:18:17 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On looking at old files, it appears that population digits were completely<BR>
> randomly assigned, with equal probability 1-9.  That's an inane curve given<BR>
> the log nature of population codes, and I totally ignored them in my<BR>
> mapping programs.  I was thinking of remapping as follows:<BR>
> P  Mult<BR>
> 1: 1.00-1.29<BR>
> 2: 1.29-1.67<BR>
> 3: 1.67-2.16<BR>
> 4: 2.16-2.79<BR>
> 5: 2.79-3.60<BR>
> 6: 3.60-4.66<BR>
> 7: 4.66-6.02<BR>
> 8: 6.02-7.78<BR>
> 9: 7.78-10.0<BR>
> (these numbers are 10^((P-1)/9) to 10^(P/9))<BR>
> <BR>
> Comments?  Seem reasonable?<BR>
<BR>
Am I missing something here?<BR>
<BR>
If I'm reading your chart correctly, a Pop 2 world could only have a<BR>
population of 129-167.  Meanwhile, the lowest population possible on a<BR>
Pop 6 world would be 3,600,000, and the highest possible population<BR>
would be 4,660,000.<BR>
<BR>
The population multiplier (P) is a means of translating the Pop code<BR>
(10^p) into hard numbers (P*10^p).  For instance, a world with a Pop<BR>
code of 4 could have a Pop multiplier of 3, indicating 30,000<BR>
inhabitants, or even a Pop multiplier of 9, indicating 90,000<BR>
inhabitants.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:24:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: "Cutlass and Blaster, Advance!"<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget that by that time he had been awarded the Distinguished Service<BR>
Cross And The Silver Star. Those are our nations next two highest<BR>
decorations for valor, plus he had received a battlefield commission for his<BR>
bravery and three Purple Hearts for wounds received. Not bad for a 20 year<BR>
old that stood 5' 6" tall and weighed about 130 lbs.<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 10:46 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: "Cutlass and Blaster, Advance!"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/22/00 10:20 PM, GypsyComet@aol.com at GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> Every now and then I like to read the Medal of Honor citations to be<BR>
> reminded of what someone with a little courage can accomplish.<BR>
><BR>
> On that note, a citation that seems more like something from an RPG or a<BR>
> movie than real history (and sadly, one of a small percentage of<BR>
> non-posthumous MOHs)<BR>
><BR>
> "MURPHY, AUDIE L.<BR>
><BR>
> Rank and organization: Second Lieutenant, U.S. Army, Company B 1 5th<BR>
> Infantry, 3d Infantry Division. Place and date: Near Holtzwihr France, 26<BR>
> January 1945.<BR>
><BR>
> Never underestimate the power of raw courage.<BR>
><BR>
> tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:14:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Killing up close (wasMarine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At one time I was a knife maker (pre-children), and sold many bladed weapons<BR>
> at scifi/fantasy conventions.  I always found it amusing to hear from people<BR>
> who carried a knife for protection and saying things like "I could never<BR>
> shoot someone".  People who obviously have no idea of the brutality of blade<BR>
> combat.<BR>
<BR>
One of the things we always used as "orientation material" for new D&D<BR>
players was the bit at the start of the second episode of Connections,<BR>
where James Burke swings the sword at the side of beef.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2646<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2647</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 23 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2647<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2644<BR>
Re: Killing up close<BR>
RE: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
Re: Jo Combat (Was: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
Fwd: Re[2]: Marine cutlass<BR>
Fwd: Re[2]: Marine Cutlass<BR>
The Sharp End, Marine cutlasses, weight of fire<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
Views from Space<BR>
Re: Views from Space<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:44:00 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2644<BR>
<BR>
>Since Tod plugged "On Killing" a couple of times in my last two digests,<BR>
>I just thought I'd anti-plug: many people, including myself, believe that<BR>
>Col. Grossman has a political agenda which might interfere with what<BR>
>statistics he chooses to present, and how he presents them, and the<BR>
>conclusions he draws from them.<BR>
><BR>
>I don't want to start a flamewar on this, as it's a bit too close to the<BR>
>gun control thread, but I am willing to discuss, cautiously, in more<BR>
detail.<BR>
<BR>
What bothers me isn't so much Colonel Grossman's "agenda", but what it is<BR>
that he tends to leave out. I have not read "On Killing", but I'm familiar<BR>
with Grossman's use, in various articles I've read, of the statistics<BR>
Marshall compiled for his book "Men Against Fire". I'm also familiar with<BR>
Marshall's book. I have yet to see an article by Grossman which doesn't<BR>
oversimplify what Marshall was trying to say in support of his own<BR>
universal-innate-human-aversion-to-killing theory.<BR>
<BR>
Marshall explores several different possibilities which may have factored<BR>
into keeping firing rates low in World War II. He does mention the<BR>
possibility of the soldiers having an aversion to killing, but he also<BR>
mentions the soldiers' fears of exposing themselves to enemy fire as well as<BR>
a more general paralyzing fear which the battlefield brings on. Marshall<BR>
also sees the aversion to killing as possibly having cultural roots, whereas<BR>
(from what I've read of his work) Grossman sees the problem as being deeply<BR>
psychological. Make of that what you will.<BR>
<BR>
I've also read articles where Grossman makes the claim that Paddy Griffith's<BR>
figures on firing rates in the American Civil War line up with Marshall's.<BR>
Paddy Griffith, if I recall correctly, was looking into other factors to<BR>
explain the lack of effective fire in the American Civil War.<BR>
<BR>
To throw some more wood onto the fire, Marshall has been accused of<BR>
inventing his data. I personally don't think that this is true, but as<BR>
Marshall explains, he didn't crosscheck his own data with the data of other<BR>
historians. I'm not familiar with the full extent of the evidence (or lack<BR>
thereof) which points to problems with Marshall's methodology, so I would<BR>
advise anyone who's interested to do a bit of reasearch on their own.<BR>
<BR>
None of this is meant to imply that Grossman is wrong, just that his sources<BR>
don't necessarily line up as nicely as he attempted to imply in the articles<BR>
which I've read. I do have certain more personal problems with Grossman.<BR>
During the aftermath of Columbine he was on television quite a bit and he<BR>
was quite rude to scholars who held opinions which were different from his<BR>
own. The most stellar case was during the Commerce Committee hearings when<BR>
he called MIT's Professor Henry Jenkins a "film reviewer" and a journalism<BR>
professor. Jenkins is neither, he studies the effect of the media on<BR>
children, and Grossman's comments could only come from someone who was<BR>
playing the discrediting game, or someone who didn't do the proper work to<BR>
check out a fellow panelist and scholar. Either, in my humble opinion, is<BR>
utterly unacceptable.<BR>
<BR>
So yeah, what Russell said: Grossman is far from uncontroversial.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:43:36 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Killing up close<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> One of the things we always used as "orientation material" for new D&D<BR>
> players was the bit at the start of the second episode of Connections,<BR>
> where James Burke swings the sword at the side of beef.<BR>
<BR>
I don't recall this bit, if I ever saw it - can you describe?<BR>
<BR>
- -RB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:46:11 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
On 06/23/00 at 10:34 AM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 12:51 PM 6/23/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>>Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
>>>My reasoning was that the Marines are coming into the ship wearing<BR>
>>>battledress. You arm to fight yourself. Having one hand on a cutlass when<BR>
>>>your enemy pops up with a fusion weapon could be very *bad*<BR>
>> <BR>
>>	Well, in CT a fusion gun cannot engage targets at Short range or<BR>
>>	closer.  That means that having a FGMP-15 in your hands when your<BR>
>>	enemy pops up with a cutlass could be very *bad*<BR>
<BR>
>In GT, that Marine has a ST of about 70.  Snap, Crackle, and, optionally,<BR>
>*Pop*.<BR>
<BR>
I'm just going to make one comment on this and then hush. <BR>
<BR>
All Traveller is not GT, and all GT isn't Doug's (or even Loren's)<BR>
vision of Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Doug, if IYTU (or the OGTU, for that matter) all Marines live in<BR>
their powered battledress and fight every battle with FGMP's plus,<BR>
that's fine...for YTU, the OGTU and anyone else's TU that *chooses*<BR>
to accept that vision.  But that isn't my choice IMTU, and I firmly<BR>
hold to the belief that my choice is as valid as *anyone* elses.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:51:05 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
<BR>
John Groth writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> Am I missing something here?<BR>
> <BR>
> If I'm reading your chart correctly, a Pop 2 world could only have a<BR>
> population of 129-167.  Meanwhile, the lowest population possible on a<BR>
> Pop 6 world would be 3,600,000, and the highest possible population<BR>
> would be 4,660,000.<BR>
<BR>
Ah.  No.  A pop-2 world could have 100-1000, depending on the P (population multiplier) code; it just works out to a different number.<BR>
> <BR>
> The population multiplier (P) is a means of translating the Pop code<BR>
> (10^p) into hard numbers (P*10^p).  For instance, a world with a Pop<BR>
> code of 4 could have a Pop multiplier of 3, indicating 30,000<BR>
> inhabitants, or even a Pop multiplier of 9, indicating 90,000<BR>
> inhabitants.<BR>
<BR>
I know what that is.  I just don't like the frequency curve for population<BR>
multipliers, because its flat and shouldn't be.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:22:46 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
<BR>
On 06/23/00 at 04:18 PM,  John Groth <wombat@premier.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> On looking at old files, it appears that population digits were completely<BR>
>> randomly assigned, with equal probability 1-9.  That's an inane curve given<BR>
>> the log nature of population codes, and I totally ignored them in my<BR>
>> mapping programs.  I was thinking of remapping as follows:<BR>
<BR>
Echoing John's "Why?" <BR>
<BR>
Given that the pop code is derived with a normal (ish) curve, why<BR>
shouldn't the population digit *within* the population code be<BR>
uniform?<BR>
<BR>
What I mean is that given a pop code of 3 represents populations<BR>
from 1,000 to 9,999, is there some reason that, for example, 5,000<BR>
should be preferred over 2,000 or 8,000?  Perhaps 8,000 should be<BR>
preferred over both 5,000 and 2,000, but I just don't see where the<BR>
population should cluster around the center points of each factor of<BR>
ten.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:38:07 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jo Combat (Was: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
"Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>The shortest bo kata I've done has to push 100 counts. About 10-15 blocks<BR>
almost all the rest strikes.  It has parries, but I've seen a recent piece<BR>
where the exact same parry motion is used as a wrist lock so now I'm<BR>
contemplating which they should be considered.<<<BR>
<BR>
As a warmup, we would practice rotating the jo through a figure eight<BR>
pattern in front of us...the effect is not unlike a baton twirler :)<BR>
Turns out, though, the wrist action involved makes an excellent block!<BR>
<BR>
>>The karate I do is extremely violent in concept. All bo work begins with<BR>
a defensive move and we train to neutralize any bo attack, but bo<BR>
counter-attack is exceptionally aggressive. He attacks, you deflect, he dies<BR>
or is broken. That is likely the different view here.<<<BR>
<BR>
Don't ge me wrong--you do strike at your opponent! I don't train anymore,<BR>
but a friend of mine (2nd Dan) who used to go to my dojo and I have started<BR>
doing weapons training once a week. I was surprised at how I still<BR>
remembered to thrust or strike right away after she blocked me--caught her<BR>
by surprise, a couple of times :)<BR>
<BR>
But sword work in aikido is closer to what you're talking about. I think the<BR>
difference between aikido and most other martial arts is that the first year<BR>
in aikido is spent learning how to fall down, roll, and get out of the way<BR>
of an attack, whereas most other arts train you in how to strike during that<BR>
first year. (You never get much past a rudimentary knowledge of striking in<BR>
aikido, although weapons training helps to balance that out. This was a<BR>
conscious decision of the founder, who took out all the strikes during<BR>
WWII.)<BR>
<BR>
Jo work in aikido is more about blending than sword work...but one aspect of<BR>
blending is to fill the vacuum a strike makes with your own attack. We used<BR>
to do a timing excercise with sword like that: the minute your opponent<BR>
raises to strike overhand, you put your swordpoint at his neck. Kind of<BR>
nifty, at that.<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: Idunno--if Marines train with cutlasses, does the Army train with<BR>
pikes :)<<BR>
<BR>
>>That's what a bayonet is supposed to be. :)<BR>
<BR>
D'OH! I knew that!<BR>
<BR>
Hyperdense halberds, anyone?<BR>
<BR>
Trying to drag things back on Topic: somebody familiar with Vilani culture<BR>
should give some thought to their martial arts. While it's true that most<BR>
martial arts have a great deal in common with each other (I've seen aikido<BR>
pins in tae kwon do, and I know most of the throws come from jiu<BR>
jitsu--human body remains basically the same everywhere, after all), the<BR>
potential exists for some really weird variations...kick-wrestling? Sumo<BR>
with axes?<BR>
<BR>
Of course, the real Vilani martial art was monopolistic trade, but that's<BR>
another post entirely...<BR>
<BR>
>"5th Kyu" <<BR>
<BR>
>>Cool. I have a friend heading for his Dan test soon in Aikido.<BR>
I'm 3rd Dan Okinawan Karate, Isshin Ryu.<<<BR>
<BR>
Ah, sir, you have me at a serious disadvantage! 5th kyu is the lowest adult<BR>
rank in Aikido!<BR>
Best of luck to your friend.<BR>
<BR>
Fred "I'm rolling as fast as I can" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:45:35 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> John Groth writes:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Am I missing something here?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > If I'm reading your chart correctly, a Pop 2 world could only have a<BR>
> > population of 129-167.  Meanwhile, the lowest population possible on a<BR>
> > Pop 6 world would be 3,600,000, and the highest possible population<BR>
> > would be 4,660,000.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ah.  No.  A pop-2 world could have 100-1000, depending on the P (population multiplier) code; it just works out to a different number.<BR>
<BR>
If I'm getting this right (and please let me know if I'm not), you would<BR>
determine the Base Pop multiplier the same way (d10, for instance), then<BR>
plug that number into your chart to find a range of Adjusted Pop<BR>
multipliers.<BR>
<BR>
**pastes chart back in**<BR>
<BR>
P  Mult<BR>
1: 1.00-1.29<BR>
2: 1.29-1.67<BR>
3: 1.67-2.16<BR>
4: 2.16-2.79<BR>
5: 2.79-3.60<BR>
6: 3.60-4.66<BR>
7: 4.66-6.02<BR>
8: 6.02-7.78<BR>
9: 7.78-10.0<BR>
<BR>
Could you please give examples of how best to determine the Adjusted Pop<BR>
multiplier code under your system?  After all, for a given Base Pop<BR>
multiplier code, you give a range of multipliers.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> I know what that is.  I just don't like the frequency curve for population<BR>
> multipliers, because its flat and shouldn't be.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that there are too many variables involved in population<BR>
growth rates in the Traveller setting (relative hospitality of worlds,<BR>
differences in Tech Level, and the effects of mass colonization, to name<BR>
a few) to make more than a wild guess about a given world's population<BR>
growth rate.  A equal distribution curve for the "steps" in a given UWP<BR>
Pop digit is therefore not unreasonable, and is simpler to use than a<BR>
derived Pop multiplier.<BR>
<BR>
Overall, I really don't see this as a problem.  As always, YMMV.  The<BR>
center cannot hold.  Burma Shave.  I prefer to save my gearheading for<BR>
new toys.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:46:30 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:<BR>
> Echoing John's "Why?" <BR>
> <BR>
> Given that the pop code is derived with a normal (ish) curve, why<BR>
> shouldn't the population digit *within* the population code be<BR>
> uniform?<BR>
<BR>
Because the 'normal' curve you have is in fact based on the common logarithm.<BR>
That means that you should have moderately uniform distribution among the <BR>
segments of a logarithm:<BR>
i.e. <BR>
pop-9 is 10^9 or 1 billion<BR>
pop-9.3 is 10^9.3 or 2.0 billion<BR>
pop-9.48 is 3.0 billion<BR>
pop-9.60 is 4.0 billion<BR>
pop-9.70 is 5.0 billion<BR>
pop-9.78 us 6.0 billion<BR>
pop-9.85 is 7.0 billion<BR>
pop-9.90 is 8.0 billion<BR>
pop-9.95 is 9.0 billion<BR>
Thus, 30% of worlds should have a population digit of 1.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:02:55 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Fwd: Re[2]: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
This is actually from me, but I inadvertently emailed to a<BR>
wrong address, and it was emailed back, hence the extra ">"<BR>
symbols.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --- Andrew Rosenfeld <AROSE@adamyoung.com> wrote:<BR>
> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:07:07 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
> To: <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
> From: Andrew Rosenfeld <AROSE@adamyoung.com><BR>
> Subject: Re[2]: Marine cutlass<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >My pet peeve.  In CT the Cutlass is statistically more<BR>
> >lethal than a RIFLE!  This totally flies in the face of <BR>
> >reality.  One only need to look at casualty reports from<BR>
> >the civil war, Balaklava and WW1 to see how few<BR>
> casualties<BR>
> >were produced by edged weapons.  <BR>
> <BR>
> You're mixing apples and oranges here.  "To hit" and "to<BR>
> damage" are two separate inquiries.  Guns produce more<BR>
> casualties because they hit more people.  They hit more<BR>
> people because they have longer ranges than blades.  <BR>
> <BR>
> >And wounds received from same were rarely<BR>
> incapacitating.<BR>
> <BR>
> This is a more justified criticism.  <BR>
> <BR>
> >If one tosses any sense of reality out the window,<BR>
> troops<BR>
> >fire their rifles only at long range, the toss them<BR>
> aside<BR>
> >and whip out their broadswords for close in work.<BR>
> <BR>
> Traveller is not trying to achieve a statistical<BR>
> simulation<BR>
> of combat as a whole.  It operates at a much more<BR>
> discrete<BR>
> scale.  <BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
> <BR>
> __________________________________________________<BR>
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> Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
> http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:03:39 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Fwd: Re[2]: Marine Cutlass<BR>
<BR>
This one, too, is actually from me, but I inadvertently<BR>
emailed to a wrong address, and it was emailed back, hence<BR>
the extra ">" symbols.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
- --- Andrew Rosenfeld <AROSE@adamyoung.com> wrote:<BR>
> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:07:10 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
> To: <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
> From: Andrew Rosenfeld <AROSE@adamyoung.com><BR>
> Subject: Re[2]: Marine Cutlass<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >The real restriction is ceiling space; if there isn't<BR>
> >enough, you can only thrust. <BR>
> <BR>
> And even the ceiling in my apartment isn't so low that it<BR>
> interferes with an overhead strike with bo-ken or cane.<BR>
> <BR>
> >An autorifle and a cutlass are equivalent at Short<BR>
> (which<BR>
> >I'm assuming to be the typical shipboard range) under<BR>
> CT! <BR>
> <BR>
> I've forgotten how many meters is short range under CT. <BR>
> In<BR>
> Snapshot, squares are 1.5m on a side, and Close is<BR>
> adjacent<BR>
> square, Short is the next square, and Medium is the third<BR>
> square out to I think 40 squares, so you never get to<BR>
> long.<BR>
>  <BR>
> <BR>
> In ordinary situations like robberies and arguments that<BR>
> end up in a fight, combat often occurs at very close<BR>
> ranges.  Guns and blades have advantages and<BR>
> disadvantages<BR>
> a such ranges.  Some blades may be better than some guns<BR>
> in<BR>
> that case (Sykes-Fairbairn vs. Garand, for an egregious<BR>
> example).<BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
> <BR>
> __________________________________________________<BR>
> Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
> Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
> http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
> <BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:30:40 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: The Sharp End, Marine cutlasses, weight of fire<BR>
<BR>
	The book _The Sharp End; The Fighting Man in World War II_ , copyright<BR>
1980 by John Ellis.  My copy came I think from the Military History Book<BR>
Club (HORRIBLE people to do business with) and was published by Charles<BR>
Scribner's Sons, New York.<BR>
<BR>
	An Amazon search says it is out of print.  Here is a link to where Amazon<BR>
offers to "search their network of used bookstores" for the title.  When<BR>
I've used that feature in the past, it has been successful but not cheap.<BR>
<BR>
	This is required reading for anyone with the faintest interest in truly<BR>
understanding the overall experience of being a front-line soldier in a<BR>
modern-era army.  It is unfathomable to me that the book is out of print,<BR>
it is a very important study using solid, scholarly methods.  John Ellis is<BR>
a prolific military writer, but I think this book may be his life's<BR>
greatest achievement.<BR>
<BR>
	It is at once colorful, poignant, dry, rigorously statistical, horrifying,<BR>
and inspiring.  It will clarify your understanding of the process of<BR>
warfare better than everything else you have read put together.  And I've<BR>
read a carefully selected thousand or so books on warfare.  If I were<BR>
forced to choose only five books about warfare or military history for<BR>
someone else to read, this book would be on the list.<BR>
- ------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
	Marine cutlasses.  YMMV, as always.<BR>
<BR>
	IMTU, Imperial Marines use not the cutlass but the one-handed battle axe.<BR>
It has superior armor penetration over any other melee weapon.  It actually<BR>
has a chance of penetrating battle armor, unlike the cutlass.  It is also<BR>
relatively short and therefore easier to wield in a starship corridor.<BR>
During character generation, I substitute battle axe skill for the cutlass<BR>
skill in the Marine career.  For Marines in a lower tech level than 12 to<BR>
15, I substitute either bayonet or dagger.  Cutlasses are just too long to<BR>
be well suited to use in corridors, and are best suited to the open deck of<BR>
a seagoing ship or a battlefield on land.  I wouldn't normally include them<BR>
in the Marine career at tech levels of 7 and above.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
	MTU is a blend of CT with all the supplements, Megatraveller, and T4.<BR>
With a few house mods to the combat rules.<BR>
<BR>
	My own US Marine Corps' boot camp training spent more time on the<BR>
rifle/bayonet combination than on any other form of melee training.  My<BR>
subsequent six years in the Corps, we never saw a pugil stick again.  When<BR>
we did training for melee combat, it was focused on bare hands, improvised<BR>
weapons, and knife fighting.  There were conflicting opinions about trying<BR>
to teach Oriental fighting styles to US Marines.  My opinion sided with the<BR>
people who felt that it would not be very useful unless we were training<BR>
rigorously several times per week for years.  It's better to focus the kind<BR>
of fighting that Americans would have grown up with.  And introduce our<BR>
guys to a few basic oriental techniques.  Mostly with the idea that we're<BR>
showing them how to deal with something an opponent might use on them.  My<BR>
reasoning is that in the chaos of melee on a battlefield, there are the<BR>
quick and the dead/wounded, and you'll be quicker trying to think of what<BR>
intuitively comes to you instead of stopping and trying to remember your<BR>
traiing and think through it.  However, if your training included many<BR>
hours per week for years then that should come as easily as anything on the<BR>
battlefield.  As the years go by, it's slightly more likely that modern<BR>
kids learn a Chinese, Korean, Japanese, or Okinawan style.<BR>
<BR>
	The improvised weapons we dealt with in training were mostly things like<BR>
entrenching tools and helmets.  For my money, I'd rather have either:  an E<BR>
tool; a bayonet mounted on a rifle; or a bowie-style trench knife.<BR>
Depending on the exact melee situation.  But I don't expect to fight people<BR>
who wear science fiction armor.  (To my knowledge, nobody has ever<BR>
manufactured the blend of bowie knife and trench knife that I would favor.<BR>
:-)  I did do a tiny bit of sword drill with the Marine cutlass (the<BR>
mameluke sword) and wasn't very comfortable with it.  Various ancient,<BR>
medieval, and renaissance designs are more appealing to me, but that's just<BR>
me.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
	Again, the following is just my humble opinion and YMMV.  :-><BR>
<BR>
	Weight of fire is a misleadingly convenient concept.  I believe it has<BR>
spent a generation or more deluding Western military planners about various<BR>
things.  It is also my belief that S.L.A. Marshall did us all a disservice<BR>
when he essentially invented battlefield statistics to fit his own personal<BR>
theories, and passed these off as legitimate.  A controversial topic, that.<BR>
<BR>
	Nowadays in the West, it is popular to believe that 100 really small<BR>
bullets going moderately fast is better than 50 big bullets going really<BR>
fast.  It is also popular to believe that people in combat rarely get hit<BR>
by aimed fire, only by being in a space that the enemy is generically<BR>
firing at.  I believe that one man's accurate, aimed fire is far more<BR>
devastating than an entire squad's unaimed automatic fire.  I also believe<BR>
that the bullets being fired need to have the range and pure knockdown<BR>
power on impact to permit troops to use them effectively in any environment.<BR>
<BR>
	So, I don't really think that a hundred M-16 rifles being pointed in the<BR>
general direction of the target from 300 to 500 yards away really have that<BR>
much chance of doing significant damage to the person who is the target.<BR>
Well, eventually, over time, sooner or later, yeah.  20th-century history<BR>
is filled with examples of seasoned tactical commanders and NCOs ignoring<BR>
the hail of incoming, unaimed fire to stand up and direct and encourage<BR>
their troops.  And not being hit.  The trick is to be a little bit lucky,<BR>
but only a little.  The other trick is to know the difference between<BR>
incoming unaimed fire and incoming aimed fire.  The final trick is to know<BR>
the difference between a bipod/tripod-mounted machinegun and a bunch of<BR>
rifles shooting at you.  As a general rule, it's dumb to stand up in front<BR>
of an emplaced MG that's trying to hit you, even at 300 yards.<BR>
<BR>
	This is a seemingly never-ending controversy, and I'm not attempting to<BR>
settle it on the TML.  Just letting my one vote be heard.<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning<BR>
- --I think it was Mark Twain who said, "There are three kinds of lies:<BR>
lies, damned lies, and statistics."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:49:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
In mail, kraehe@copyleft.de writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Moin Leonard Erickson,<BR>
><BR>
>   I got both mails.<BR>
><BR>
>> >   1 watt of power is 1 joule * 1 second of pulse.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> You've got it backwards. E=P*T. <BR>
><BR>
>   do I have a error of misstranslation ?<BR>
><BR>
>   Kraft/Force           F       N=(kg*m)/(s*s)  newton<BR>
>   Arbeit/Work           W       J=N*m           joule<BR>
>   Leistung/Power        P       W=J/s           watt<BR>
<BR>
And:<BR>
	Time		T	second<BR>
<BR>
	P = W/T<BR>
<BR>
Therefore:<BR>
<BR>
	W = P * T<BR>
<BR>
>> So 10 MW for 1 sec gives a 10 MJ pulse. But to get a 10 MJ pulse that's<BR>
>> only one *milli*second long, you need a thousand times the power. 10 GW<BR>
>> for 1 ms = 1O MJ. And so on. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> In short, for the same *energy* in a shorter pulse, the *power* level<BR>
>> has to go up in direct proportion to the shortness of the pulse.<BR>
><BR>
>   *energy* in my book means kg*(m/s)^2 - so if I reduce the duration<BR>
>   a single laser pulse, I would need less not more power to feed into<BR>
>   the HPG before the laser can shoot. But if I want the *power* be<BR>
>   constant, and reduce the duration of the pulse, the pulse would<BR>
>   contain more energy for a shorter time.<BR>
<BR>
You've missed the point. To get the same *energy* into a pulse that has<BR>
a shorter *duration*  requires a *higher* power input. It doesn't<BR>
require it for as *long*, but it still requires it.<BR>
<BR>
Using your own W = J/s, plug in 10 MJ and 1 second. The result is 10 MW.<BR>
Then try it with 10 MJ/1 millisecond (ms). 10000/.001 = 10 000 000 or 10<BR>
GW.<BR>
<BR>
*Now* do you get the idea? Same energy, delivered in *less* time means<BR>
*higher* power. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:51:38 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
On 23 Jun 2000 07:53:58 -0000, shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In mail, Traveller-Culture@egroups.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>> [Posted to both TML and TravCult; threads welcome both places.]<BR>
<BR>
>> My choices:<BR>
<BR>
>> (1) Tines, from Vernor Vinge's _A_Fire_Upon_The_Deep_.  A<BR>
>> medieval pack-mind society that could be dropped just about<BR>
>> anywhere and fit, unchanged. Read the book if you haven't.<BR>
>> Interesting alternative: instead of ultrasonic communication<BR>
>> between pack members, use telepathy; what are the ramifications<BR>
>> if the Imperium discovers this, especially if the telepathy<BR>
>> doesn't work with non-Tines?  Once the Tines are contacted and<BR>
>> given access to technology, what sort of accommodations are made<BR>
>> for their special needs?  What are the ramifications of<BR>
>> "full-press contact" between one of the Major Races and the Tines<BR>
>> - as contrasted with the accidental contact of two children and a<BR>
>> couple of library computers (and later low-bandwidth<BR>
>> communication with a very limited group of adults)?<BR>
<BR>
>I'd hate to face a Tine running a set of fighters, especially if they<BR>
>use telepathy.<BR>
<BR>
A Tine wouldn't be running a _set_ of fighters; it would run a<BR>
single fighter.  First, the intrapack communication was severely<BR>
range-limited; second, the dexterity of a single member was<BR>
severely limited - to do simple things often took two or more<BR>
members cooperating, and some - like making snowballs, for<BR>
instance, were totally beyond them.  A Tine of high intelligence<BR>
_might_ be able to handle all of the Bridge stations of a small<BR>
starship, but even that wouldn't be clear; they might only be<BR>
able to manage layouts that were more efficient from a<BR>
space-utilization view, but which wouldn't be practical for a<BR>
human (or any single-body intelligence).<BR>
<BR>
Intrapack telepathy _might_ alleviate the range problem somewhat,<BR>
but wouldn't solve the dexterity problem.<BR>
<BR>
>For a variant human culture that *can't* join the Imperium, check out<BR>
>"Courtship Rite" by Donald Kingsbury. <BR>
<BR>
More info, please?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:14:20 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 07:51 PM 6/23/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>>For a variant human culture that *can't* join the Imperium, check out<BR>
>>"Courtship Rite" by Donald Kingsbury. <BR>
><BR>
>More info, please?<BR>
<BR>
The humans in Courtship Rite have a highly inculturated taste for human flesh<BR>
:)<BR>
All in all a red zone planet I would think (and a great read besides).<BR>
<BR>
Paul <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:29:26 -0400<BR>
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net><BR>
Subject: Views from Space<BR>
<BR>
	This is an interesting sight: <BR>
<BR>
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/printimage.asp?S=14&T=1&X=93&Y=1493&Z=18&W=1<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: The TerraServer is a really good resource for the GM to make<BR>
handouts for their players. <BR>
<BR>
	Heres a shot of the players decent into a startport:<BR>
<BR>
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=13&T=1&X=208&Y=2932&Z=19&W=1<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
    Thomas Jones-Low<BR>
    tjoneslo@together.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:46:11 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Views from Space<BR>
<BR>
Thom Jones-Low wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>         This is an interesting sight:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://terraserver.microsoft.com/printimage.asp?S=14&T=1&X=93&Y=1493&Z=18&W=1<BR>
> <BR>
> ObTrav: The TerraServer is a really good resource for the GM to make<BR>
> handouts for their players.<BR>
> <BR>
>         Heres a shot of the players decent into a startport:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=13&T=1&X=208&Y=2932&Z=19&W=1<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but SFO is the canonical downport image (cf. _Far Trader_, pg.<BR>
49).  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Seiously, this could indeed be a useful site for referees.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2647<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, June 24 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2648<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Views from Space<BR>
maps page updated more<BR>
Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
Lesson Learned (was: Re: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
Re: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
Re: Jo Combat (Was: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
Jamming Meson Comms (was: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller)<BR>
Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
Re: Real Men<BR>
Re: Running out of Ammo<BR>
Re: Combat Pistol (was: shipboard combat)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2644<BR>
Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
Re: Jo Combat (Was: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
Re: Lesson Learned (was: Re: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:49:23 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Views from Space<BR>
<BR>
Thom Jones-Low wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>         This is an interesting sight:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://terraserver.microsoft.com/printimage.asp?S=14&T=1&X=93&Y=1493&Z=18&W=1<BR>
<BR>
Note the shape just over halfway down, and near the center.  Definite<BR>
proof that, at one time, there was intelligent life near Brighton, New<BR>
York! >;-)<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:31:35 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: maps page updated more<BR>
<BR>
new summary statistics<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:40:02 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
> >The real restriction is ceiling space; if there isn't<BR>
> >enough, you can only thrust.<BR>
><BR>
> And even the ceiling in my apartment isn't so low that it<BR>
> interferes with an overhead strike with bo-ken or cane.<BR>
<BR>
My ceiling doesn't prevent the strike, even the shomen (full overhead)<BR>
strike, although I do have to be careful, as the bloody broken lightbulb<BR>
that's still stuck in the ceiling fixture can attest to!<BR>
<BR>
> >An autorifle and a cutlass are equivalent at Short<BR>
> (which<BR>
> >I'm assuming to be the typical shipboard range) under<BR>
> CT!<BR>
><BR>
> I've forgotten how many meters is short range under CT.<BR>
> In<BR>
> Snapshot, squares are 1.5m on a side, and Close is<BR>
> adjacent<BR>
> square, Short is the next square, and Medium is the third<BR>
> square out to I think 40 squares, so you never get to<BR>
> long.<BR>
<BR>
Short is 1-5m, medium 6-50m. This translates to ca. 1-3 1.5 m squares for<BR>
short, 4-33 squares for medium.<BR>
<BR>
> In ordinary situations like robberies and arguments that<BR>
> end up in a fight, combat often occurs at very close<BR>
> ranges.  Guns and blades have advantages and<BR>
> disadvantages<BR>
> a such ranges.  Some blades may be better than some guns<BR>
> in<BR>
> that case (Sykes-Fairbairn vs. Garand, for an egregious<BR>
> example).<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Not so egregious! Could you explain?<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, as far as the whole cutlass question goes, I agree with Brian and<BR>
Tod. Cutlass wielding Marines are a Traveller tradition. May they ever<BR>
remain so! Many a happy session the misspent summers of my youth were spent<BR>
with my Marine PC alternating between autorifle and cutlass in dispatching<BR>
the evil minions of Jeff ("A poor PC is a happy PC") the GM!<BR>
<BR>
Fred "Cutlass kata on C-deck at 1600 hours" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:10:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Joe Lachance" <Lachance@nc.rr.com><BR>
Subject: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
<BR>
Assuming that a ship has some sort of internal fire (say a fuel hit in the<BR>
T4 rules), what does this appear to those outside of the ship?<BR>
<BR>
A brief flame inside the ship that is quickly snuffed out due to lack of<BR>
oxygen to fuel it?  Somehow the Hollywood depiction of smoldering ships (a<BR>
la starship troopers and a whole host of others) doesn't seem right to me...<BR>
<BR>
Joe<BR>
<BR>
re:the cutlass/pistol discussion..what about the knife/derringer combination<BR>
pistols of the past? Perhaps they are carried as a symbolic boarding weapon<BR>
by marines with noble patents.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:10:02 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:<BR>
> > Echoing John's "Why?" <BR>
> > <BR>
> > Given that the pop code is derived with a normal (ish) curve, why<BR>
> > shouldn't the population digit *within* the population code be<BR>
> > uniform?<BR>
> <BR>
> Because the 'normal' curve you have is in fact based on the common logarithm.<BR>
> That means that you should have moderately uniform distribution among the <BR>
> segments of a logarithm:<BR>
<BR>
I'm only going to buy this theory if you work out how the uneven <BR>
bell-curve distribution of exponents affects the distribution of <BR>
multipliers.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:29:29 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Lesson Learned (was: Re: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
VonRammen wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Anyway, as far as the whole cutlass question goes, I agree with Brian and<BR>
> Tod. Cutlass wielding Marines are a Traveller tradition. May they ever<BR>
> remain so! Many a happy session the misspent summers of my youth were spent<BR>
> with my Marine PC alternating between autorifle and cutlass in dispatching<BR>
> the evil minions of Jeff ("A poor PC is a happy PC") the GM!<BR>
<BR>
And the moral of the story is:<BR>
<BR>
Subscribe to Pyramid, so that you can participate in the playtest of<BR>
upcoming GT books.  (No, I'm not a SJG employee.)<BR>
<BR>
Had some of the cutlass partisans participated in the GT: GF playtest,<BR>
they might at least have convinced Doug to include something along the<BR>
lines of my "Cutlass Declaration" (short version: while official Marine<BR>
doctrine doesn't include cutlass use in combat, Marine leaders are free<BR>
to employ cutlasses in boarding actions as they see fit) as a sidebar. <BR>
This would encourage individual campaigns to continue cutlass use in<BR>
combat (if the referee and players so wished), while stating (for the<BR>
realist players) that cutlass use is not _expected_ in combat, thus<BR>
allowing flexibility for both players and referees.<BR>
<BR>
I might have argued this point, had my Annual Training with the National<BR>
Guard not coincided with the playtest of GT: GF.  <shrug> C'est la<BR>
guerre.<BR>
<BR>
Cutlass enthusiasts can look at the bright side: Even in GT: GF,<BR>
Imperial Marines still receive _training_ in cutlass use.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:37:13 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
<BR>
On 06/23/00 at 03:46 PM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:<BR>
>> Echoing John's "Why?" <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Given that the pop code is derived with a normal (ish) curve, why<BR>
>> shouldn't the population digit *within* the population code be<BR>
>> uniform?<BR>
<BR>
>Because the 'normal' curve you have is in fact based on the common<BR>
>logarithm. That means that you should have moderately uniform<BR>
>distribution among the  segments of a logarithm:<BR>
>i.e. <BR>
>pop-9 is 10^9 or 1 billion<BR>
>pop-9.3 is 10^9.3 or 2.0 billion<BR>
>pop-9.48 is 3.0 billion<BR>
>pop-9.60 is 4.0 billion<BR>
>pop-9.70 is 5.0 billion<BR>
>pop-9.78 us 6.0 billion<BR>
>pop-9.85 is 7.0 billion<BR>
>pop-9.90 is 8.0 billion<BR>
>pop-9.95 is 9.0 billion<BR>
>Thus, 30% of worlds should have a population digit of 1.<BR>
<BR>
Hum, are you trying to maintain something close to a normal curve<BR>
all the way up the scale from pop-0 through pop-9, with pop-4.5<BR>
being the expected value?<BR>
<BR>
If you are you'll need to reverse your factors for pop's 0-4 won't<BR>
you?<BR>
<BR>
IAC, it seems like you're straining a gnat, to pass a camel, but I<BR>
can see the reasoning behind what you're doing.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:48:17 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
<BR>
Joe Lachance wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Assuming that a ship has some sort of internal fire (say a fuel hit in the<BR>
> T4 rules), what does this appear to those outside of the ship?<BR>
<BR>
An internal fire (i.e., a reaction between combustibles and oxygen)<BR>
wouldn't appear at all outside a ship, unless it either heated a portion<BR>
of the hull until it glowed (highly unlikely) or involved the ship's<BR>
atmosphere present at a hull breach location (highly short-lived, in a<BR>
ship with decent airtight compartments).<BR>
<BR>
Should such a fire pose a serious threat, the damage control party would<BR>
likely vent the affected sections to space, thus starving the fire of<BR>
further oxygen.<BR>
<BR>
<handwave> (for those who enjoy describing burning ships)<BR>
<BR>
Note, however, that a fuel hit of sufficient energy could plausibly<BR>
start a short-lived plasma/fusion reaction, which might be visible<BR>
outside the ship for the duration of the reaction.  After all, one line<BR>
of research into fusion power has involved laser-initiated fusion.<BR>
<BR>
</handwave><BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:18:28 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
> Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >I'd hate to face a Tine running a set of fighters, especially if they<BR>
> >use telepathy.<BR>
> <BR>
> A Tine wouldn't be running a _set_ of fighters; it would run a<BR>
> single fighter.  First, the intrapack communication was severely<BR>
> range-limited; second, the dexterity of a single member was<BR>
> severely limited - to do simple things often took two or more<BR>
> members cooperating, and some - like making snowballs, for<BR>
> instance, were totally beyond them.  A Tine of high intelligence<BR>
> _might_ be able to handle all of the Bridge stations of a small<BR>
> starship, but even that wouldn't be clear; they might only be<BR>
> able to manage layouts that were more efficient from a<BR>
> space-utilization view, but which wouldn't be practical for a<BR>
> human (or any single-body intelligence).<BR>
<BR>
Actually, in Vinge's short story "The Blabber" the Tines are <BR>
mentioned as using multiple small fighters, with one body per <BR>
fighter.  Instead of using sonics, the fighters communicated using <BR>
radio communications like the Tines developed in AFUtD.  <BR>
<BR>
Give the speed difference of radio vs sound a group of Tines would <BR>
still be a functional entity even at ranges of up to several thousand <BR>
kilometers.  All you need to is design the ships so that they can be <BR>
piloted with a single Tine's limited manual dexterity.  Sonic controls <BR>
are one idea, as is a  harness which reacts to full-body <BR>
movements.  Such control systems would likely be Traveller TL <BR>
10+, but a squad of 5 Tine fighters all controlled by a single mind <BR>
would be *very* tough to beat.  The best way would be to jam the <BR>
signals between ships.  Once meson communicators are <BR>
developed even that tactic isn't possible.  Of course, if you hit even <BR>
one ship the rest become dumber, so squads of multiple fighters <BR>
are risky for lengthy combats.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:27:30 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jo Combat (Was: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen wrote,<BR>
>As a warmup, we would practice rotating the jo through a figure eight<BR>
pattern in front of us...the effect is not unlike a baton twirler :)<BR>
Turns out, though, the wrist action involved makes an excellent block!<<BR>
<BR>
Reminds me of the story about why most systems have no set of basic training<BR>
moves with weapons. But that is moving way off topic.<BR>
(Yes I know, I'm evil for teasing people like this. I get in trouble if I<BR>
don't make people work for knowledge like this.)<BR>
<BR>
>Don't ge me wrong--you do strike at your opponent! I don't train anymore,<BR>
but a friend of mine (2nd Dan) who used to go to my dojo and I have started<BR>
doing weapons training once a week. I was surprised at how I still<BR>
remembered to thrust or strike right away after she blocked me--caught her<BR>
by surprise, a couple of times :)<<BR>
<BR>
And that reminds me of the old story about who the greatest fighter in the<BR>
world fears more, the second greatest or a beginner.<BR>
You just don't what beginners will come up with.<BR>
Of course one of my early bokken training sessions I did a beautiful side<BR>
step and brought my weapon down for a weapon smash disarm. I overextended<BR>
and instead of hitting his bokken with mine, I hit it with my thumb instead.<BR>
*sigh*<BR>
<BR>
>But sword work in aikido is closer to what you're talking about. I think<BR>
the<BR>
difference between aikido and most other martial arts is that the first year<BR>
in aikido is spent learning how to fall down, roll, and get out of the way<BR>
of an attack, whereas most other arts train you in how to strike during that<BR>
first year. (You never get much past a rudimentary knowledge of striking in<BR>
aikido, although weapons training helps to balance that out. This was a<BR>
conscious decision of the founder, who took out all the strikes during<BR>
WWII.)<<BR>
<BR>
I have gotten that understanding from various discussions I have been in. I<BR>
am part of a group that is trying to do a bunch of backwards adapting to<BR>
Okinawan Martial Arts to make them more combat oriented as opposed to the<BR>
mental and physical development Gichin Funakoshi wanted.  But again, that<BR>
begins to shift off topic.<BR>
<BR>
>Jo work in aikido is more about blending than sword work...but one aspect<BR>
of<BR>
blending is to fill the vacuum a strike makes with your own attack. We used<BR>
to do a timing excercise with sword like that: the minute your opponent<BR>
raises to strike overhand, you put your swordpoint at his neck. Kind of<BR>
nifty, at that.<<BR>
<BR>
Definitely.<BR>
Blending is a critical ability often overlooked. If your Jo work<BR>
concentrates on that aspect and recognizes it as the focus then lessening of<BR>
combat orientation is a reasonable and acceptable side effect.<BR>
<BR>
>Trying to drag things back on Topic: somebody familiar with Vilani culture<BR>
should give some thought to their martial arts. While it's true that most<BR>
martial arts have a great deal in common with each other (I've seen aikido<BR>
pins in tae kwon do, and I know most of the throws come from jiu<BR>
jitsu--human body remains basically the same everywhere, after all), the<BR>
potential exists for some really weird variations...kick-wrestling? Sumo<BR>
with axes?<<BR>
<BR>
OK, my one real rant.<BR>
Martial arts combat, outside of movie martial arts, should be identical to<BR>
the regular fighting system. There is nothing overwhelmingly superior about<BR>
a "martial arts" punch over any other sort of punch. Further, what you cite<BR>
above is 100% true despite the wishes of some instructors. A martial art<BR>
doesn't include something only at the desire of the particular instructor.<BR>
Even boxing technically has kicking by the simple fact that it is<BR>
disallowed. It wouldn't be forbidden if it wasn't recognized as being able<BR>
to be done.<BR>
Cinema is fine, but recognize that is what you are doing when you go that<BR>
far.<BR>
(I don't play GURPS so this should not be taken as an informed opinion on<BR>
the GURPS system. It is a general opinion based on those systems I have<BR>
played, all of which fail miserably in my view except for Champions which is<BR>
merely adequate.)<BR>
<BR>
>Of course, the real Vilani martial art was monopolistic trade, but that's<BR>
another post entirely...<<BR>
<BR>
Merchants need to know how to fight too.<BR>
<BR>
>Ah, sir, you have me at a serious disadvantage!<<BR>
<BR>
Ack!<BR>
Please, no. That is why I rarely even mention my rank. I am student like<BR>
everyone else. I am a professional, but I don't get to trump anyone's<BR>
opinion (except where I teach :-P) just because of my rank.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:39:15 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Jamming Meson Comms (was: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Give the speed difference of radio vs sound a group of Tines would<BR>
> still be a functional entity even at ranges of up to several thousand<BR>
> kilometers.  All you need to is design the ships so that they can be<BR>
> piloted with a single Tine's limited manual dexterity.  Sonic controls<BR>
> are one idea, as is a  harness which reacts to full-body<BR>
> movements.  Such control systems would likely be Traveller TL<BR>
> 10+, but a squad of 5 Tine fighters all controlled by a single mind<BR>
> would be *very* tough to beat.  The best way would be to jam the<BR>
> signals between ships.  Once meson communicators are<BR>
> developed even that tactic isn't possible.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
Is there any way to jam meson comms?<BR>
<BR>
I would think that a continual (but relatively low-power) stream of<BR>
decaying mesons on the receiving ship might at least degrade reception.<BR>
<BR>
Any thoughts on this?<BR>
<BR>
Do any 98Gs (or the equivalent in other services) wish to give their Cr<BR>
0.02?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:39:19 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:44:22 -0400 (EDT), "J. Paul Sanders"<BR>
<timmon@primenet.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>At 07:51 PM 6/23/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>>For a variant human culture that *can't* join the Imperium, check out<BR>
>>>"Courtship Rite" by Donald Kingsbury. <BR>
<BR>
>>More info, please?<BR>
<BR>
>The humans in Courtship Rite have a highly inculturated taste for human flesh<BR>
>:)<BR>
>All in all a red zone planet I would think (and a great read besides).<BR>
<BR>
The taste for human flesh isn't a problem in and of itself - the<BR>
problem comes if the acquisition method is not entirely voluntary<BR>
on the part of the acquired...<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:44:44 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Real Men<BR>
<BR>
on 6/23/00 7:38 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ROne of my favorite movies is _The Wind and the Lion*_ and Sean Connery<BR>
> (playing a Scottish Berber) delivers a _GREAT_ speech (paraphrased because I<BR>
> haven't seen the movie in years):<BR>
> <BR>
> "Real men fight with swords, so they can look each other in the eye . . .<BR>
> sometimes, this is not possible, and for that, there is the rifle. But the<BR>
> Europeans have guns that fire many bullets at once, and rend the Earth<BR>
> promiscously . . . this is not war -- it is slaughter."<BR>
> <BR>
> LKW<BR>
<BR>
The movie was great not only for it's grandiose sweep, but also because John<BR>
Milius did such a great job of capturing the flavor of the times.  And of<BR>
course all the great lines.<BR>
<BR>
"children, don't touch that tongue"<BR>
"It's been a bad year...the next one will probably be worse"<BR>
"a whole world at war, now THAT would be something to go out on"<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:47:58 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Running out of Ammo<BR>
<BR>
on 6/23/00 8:13 AM, VonRammen at von_rammen@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> having my gunslinger character, when he knew he was going into a fight,<BR>
> carry a double holster rig for his .45s (NOT to fire two guns at once, which<BR>
> nobody did, but to have a loaded gun when the first ran out)<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> Fred "You talkin' to me" Ramen<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
popularly known as a New York reload.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:57:19 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Combat Pistol (was: shipboard combat)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/23/00 9:27 AM, Rodney Basler at rgb@odetics.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
> <BR>
>> on 6/22/00 4:48 PM, Rodney Basler at rgb@odetics.com wrote:<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Now the latest crop of games score on ammo consumption...silly me, I was<BR>
>>> taught to double-tap.  Hard habit to break  :)<BR>
>>> <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Mozambique drill.  Two to the chest, one to the head.<BR>
>> <BR>
> <BR>
> Damn straight, though I was responding more to the (was it the "El<BR>
> Presidente"?) drill.  Three targets:  three double-taps from left to right,<BR>
> reload, repeat. (and yes, it was a .45 ... 89 years and still going strong).<BR>
> I was taught that the Mozambique drill was for engaging targets that<BR>
> (suprise!) were wearing body armor.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
What, a fellow IPSC shooter!  Well do I remember "El Presidente".  You<BR>
forgot to mention the part about starting from the surrender position with<BR>
your BACK to the target.  And that 3 seconds was a losing time.<BR>
<BR>
I recall a specific episode of Miami Vice.  It seems that Michael Mann got<BR>
to see an IPSC match and was amazed at the speed and accuracy of the<BR>
shooters.  He recruited on of the upper end shooters for an episode.  The is<BR>
a great scene at the very beginning where the IPSC guy, playing a baddie, is<BR>
caught by an officer.  The baddie draws, does 2 to the chest, one to the<BR>
head in a long second.  Friends not in the know assured me it was all done<BR>
with trick photography.  It wasn't.  We had hours of fun running that scene<BR>
on the VCR at slow playback.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:59:34 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2644<BR>
<BR>
on 6/23/00 9:51 AM, Rodney Basler at rgb@odetics.com wrote:<BR>
> Does anyone else remember a game put out by FASA way back in the '80s<BR>
> called "Behind Enemy Lines"?  One of the neat little bits in the rules on<BR>
> battles was "Random Fire."  It was a table cross referencing the number of<BR>
> soldiers firing with the rate of ammo expendature, resulting in a 'weight of<BR>
> fire' value (e.g.  light, moderate, heavy, etc.)  This translated to random<BR>
> hits on the characters.  Very light fire would produce a certain chance of a<BR>
> hit if the character was moving in the open, while the most intense fire<BR>
> would produce hits unless the character was all but buried in a bunker (due<BR>
> to ricochets and secondary fragments).  If the characters started shooting<BR>
> back randomly, and at a higher rate than the enemy, more and more of the<BR>
> enemy soldiers would start ducking for cover and the level of fire would<BR>
> drop.  The reverse was also true :)<BR>
> I snagged a copy of the rules and have always wanted to adapt them to<BR>
> Traveller combat.  As the expression goes "It's not the one with your name<BR>
> on it that you have to worry about, it is the thousand others addressed to<BR>
> 'to whom it may concern'"<BR>
> <BR>
> Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
> <BR>
Brilliant!  Can you provide a copy.  I'd love to implement such a system in<BR>
my CT games.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:06:49 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "John Groth" <wombat@premier.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 10:18 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > On looking at old files, it appears that population digits were<BR>
completely<BR>
> > randomly assigned, with equal probability 1-9.  That's an inane curve<BR>
given<BR>
> > the log nature of population codes, and I totally ignored them in my<BR>
> > mapping programs.  I was thinking of remapping as follows:<BR>
> > P  Mult<BR>
> > 1: 1.00-1.29<BR>
> > 2: 1.29-1.67<BR>
> > 3: 1.67-2.16<BR>
> > 4: 2.16-2.79<BR>
> > 5: 2.79-3.60<BR>
> > 6: 3.60-4.66<BR>
> > 7: 4.66-6.02<BR>
> > 8: 6.02-7.78<BR>
> > 9: 7.78-10.0<BR>
> > (these numbers are 10^((P-1)/9) to 10^(P/9))<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Comments?  Seem reasonable?<BR>
><BR>
> Am I missing something here?<BR>
><BR>
> If I'm reading your chart correctly, a Pop 2 world could only have a<BR>
> population of 129-167.  Meanwhile, the lowest population possible on a<BR>
> Pop 6 world would be 3,600,000, and the highest possible population<BR>
> would be 4,660,000.<BR>
><BR>
> The population multiplier (P) is a means of translating the Pop code<BR>
> (10^p) into hard numbers (P*10^p).  For instance, a world with a Pop<BR>
> code of 4 could have a Pop multiplier of 3, indicating 30,000<BR>
> inhabitants, or even a Pop multiplier of 9, indicating 90,000<BR>
> inhabitants.<BR>
<BR>
No, he's saying that the above values replace the straight multiplier. So in<BR>
the examples you gave, a Pop 4 world with a multiplier code of 3 would have<BR>
from 16,000-21,600 inhabitants, and a multiplier of 9 would give<BR>
77,800-99,999 (note the 10 in the table above should really be 9.9<BR>
recurring...)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:03:32 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jo Combat (Was: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/23/00 10:55 AM, VonRammen at von_rammen@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> ObTrav: Idunno--if Marines train with cutlasses, does the Army train with<BR>
> pikes :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Fred "5th Kyu" Ramen<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Sabers, maybe.  Or bayonets.  Personally, I always like the skill "big<BR>
radio", which is normally used with the corresponding skill "artillery on<BR>
call".<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:16:51<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Lesson Learned (was: Re: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
At 09:29 PM 6/23/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Had some of the cutlass partisans participated in the GT: GF playtest,<BR>
>they might at least have convinced Doug to include something along the<BR>
>lines of my "Cutlass Declaration" (short version: while official Marine<BR>
>doctrine doesn't include cutlass use in combat, Marine leaders are free<BR>
>to employ cutlasses in boarding actions as they see fit) as a sidebar. <BR>
>This would encourage individual campaigns to continue cutlass use in<BR>
>combat (if the referee and players so wished), while stating (for the<BR>
>realist players) that cutlass use is not _expected_ in combat, thus<BR>
>allowing flexibility for both players and referees.<BR>
<BR>
It might have, but I really would have needed a hard sell on that point.<BR>
Cutlasses are mentioned as a very strong Marine tradition, but nothing<BR>
beyond that.<BR>
<BR>
>Cutlass enthusiasts can look at the bright side: Even in GT: GF,<BR>
>Imperial Marines still receive _training_ in cutlass use.<BR>
<BR>
True, I couldn't pass that up.  They also play bagpipes.  In jump.  The<BR>
Navy *loves* that...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2648<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, June 24 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2649<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Killing up close (wasMarine Cutlass)<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Cutlasses<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2644<BR>
Re: Marines<BR>
Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
Re: Cutlasses<BR>
Re: Jamming Meson Comms (was: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller)<BR>
Re: Combat Pistol (was: shipboard combat)<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Running out of Ammo<BR>
Re: Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
Re: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
Re: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Killing up close<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:32:36 -0500<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Killing up close (wasMarine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
> The great thing about guns is<BR>
> that they are so much more 'antiseptic'.<BR>
<BR>
They also tend to be easier to learn to use. Point and click.<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:41:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/22/00 4:24 PM, Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> part of the fun is the debate.<BR>
<BR>
Amen to that!<BR>
<BR>
My .02Cr: I always thought that the cutlass was taught in part for the<BR>
discipline and physical exertion, and because it trains the student to get<BR>
into the "I am in lethal combat now" state of mind. Coolness factor counts<BR>
too, and blades are great parade weapons. Once the person knows the art, it<BR>
adds a nice supplement to ones options, but still gets outweighed often by<BR>
your other options, like firearms, grenades, etc.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:43:29 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cutlasses<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:30:14 -0700<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Cutlasses<BR>
><BR>
>on 6/22/00 6:06 PM, DaveShayne at daveshayne@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> According to the book "The Sharp End" (by someone who's name I can't<BR>
>> recall of the top of my head) during the Russo-Japanese in the fighting<BR>
>> around Port Arthur both sides infantry ran out of ammunition at about the<BR>
>> same time. Even though both armies were equipped with bayonettes<BR>
>> the troops decided to throw rocks at each other rather than close to<BR>
>> hand to hand combat. No mention was made regarding the lethality<BR>
>> of the wounds attributed to this unorthodox attack.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Dave Shayne<BR>
><BR>
>The same story is reported in Col. Grossman's excellent book "On Killing".<BR>
>If you remember who wrote "The Sharp End", let me know, It's on my must<BR>
read<BR>
>list.  Reading "Soldiers" by Keagan just now.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ellis is the author (At least according to BN.com {not an endorsement merely<BR>
the source for my info} )<BR>
<BR>
The book is apparently out of print but is listed as available in the rare<BR>
and<BR>
oop section of bn.<BR>
<BR>
The book is about the front line infantry soldiers of WW2 and has some<BR>
interesting tidbits of information about true casualty rates among the<BR>
soldiers<BR>
who actually got involved in the fighting (much higher than you would think<BR>
possible.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately I can't give direct quotes because my copy was<BR>
a victim of flood damage a few months ago.<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"I'm all lost in the supermarket,<BR>
   I can no longer shop happily,<BR>
   I came in here for the special offer<BR>
   Guaranteed Personality" - Strummer/Jones (The Clash)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:46:16 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2644<BR>
<BR>
on 6/23/00 10:59 AM, Russell Bornschlegel at kaleja@estarcion.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Since Tod plugged "On Killing" a couple of times in my last two digests,<BR>
> I just thought I'd anti-plug: many people, including myself, believe that<BR>
> Col. Grossman has a political agenda which might interfere with what<BR>
> statistics he chooses to present, and how he presents them, and the<BR>
> conclusions he draws from them.<BR>
> <BR>
> I don't want to start a flamewar on this, as it's a bit too close to the<BR>
> gun control thread, but I am willing to discuss, cautiously, in more detail.<BR>
> <BR>
> -Russell B<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Are you referring to his comments about the use of operant conditioning by<BR>
the media and how it may be effecting our generation?  Certainly, it may be<BR>
true that Grossman has a political agenda.  However, the studies I have<BR>
noted from his book are not his own, and have appeared in a variety of other<BR>
works.  No single source should ever be considered without looking at other<BR>
material. I would direct you to the works of Keagan, SLA Marshall's "Men<BR>
against fire", some of the works of Dunnigan and a host of other sources.<BR>
Even some SIPRI publications are illuminating. I can provide a bibliography<BR>
if you require one.<BR>
<BR>
At least Grossman cites his sources, rather than referring to "well know<BR>
truism" as is often the case. Have you read "On Killing"?, and what<BR>
specifically do you object to?<BR>
<BR>
Just curious, and definitely not trying to start a flame war. I haven't read<BR>
any critiques of Grossma'ns work, and am unfamiliar with any controversy<BR>
associated with it.  I just read the book.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:47:35 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marines<BR>
<BR>
on 6/23/00 11:24 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Frank and I wrote a TO&E for Marine Task Forces which appeared in JTAS, and<BR>
> which I expanded for use in GT Star Mercs, and which will appear in the<BR>
> upcoming GT Ground Forces. I consider it canon, although you are free not to<BR>
> if you want.<BR>
> <BR>
> LKW<BR>
> <BR>
Cool, I have Star Mercs, but haven't read it yet.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 01:20:12 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:21:31 -0400 (EDT), sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
<BR>
>> >I'd hate to face a Tine running a set of fighters, especially if they<BR>
>> >use telepathy.<BR>
 <BR>
>> A Tine wouldn't be running a _set_ of fighters; it would run a<BR>
>> single fighter.  First, the intrapack communication was severely<BR>
>> range-limited; second, the dexterity of a single member was<BR>
>> severely limited - to do simple things often took two or more<BR>
>> members cooperating, and some - like making snowballs, for<BR>
>> instance, were totally beyond them.  A Tine of high intelligence<BR>
>> _might_ be able to handle all of the Bridge stations of a small<BR>
>> starship, but even that wouldn't be clear; they might only be<BR>
>> able to manage layouts that were more efficient from a<BR>
>> space-utilization view, but which wouldn't be practical for a<BR>
>> human (or any single-body intelligence).<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, in Vinge's short story "The Blabber" the Tines are <BR>
>mentioned as using multiple small fighters, with one body per <BR>
>fighter.  Instead of using sonics, the fighters communicated using <BR>
>radio communications like the Tines developed in AFUtD.  <BR>
<BR>
Never read this one, just AFUtD - where can I find a copy?<BR>
<BR>
>Give the speed difference of radio vs sound a group of Tines would <BR>
>still be a functional entity even at ranges of up to several thousand <BR>
>kilometers.  All you need to is design the ships so that they can be <BR>
>piloted with a single Tine's limited manual dexterity.  Sonic controls <BR>
>are one idea, as is a  harness which reacts to full-body <BR>
>movements.  Such control systems would likely be Traveller TL <BR>
>10+, but a squad of 5 Tine fighters all controlled by a single mind <BR>
>would be *very* tough to beat.  The best way would be to jam the <BR>
>signals between ships.  Once meson communicators are <BR>
>developed even that tactic isn't possible.  Of course, if you hit even <BR>
>one ship the rest become dumber, so squads of multiple fighters <BR>
>are risky for lengthy combats.<BR>
<BR>
Very true.  It would make for interesting tactics, though.  The<BR>
question becomes "how expendable - and _partially_ expendable -<BR>
are your personnel?".<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:20:25 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cutlasses<BR>
<BR>
on 6/23/00 9:43 PM, DaveShayne at daveshayne@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Ellis is the author (At least according to BN.com {not an endorsement merely<BR>
> the source for my info} )<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Ellis, thanks you.  I remember reading this years ago, but haven't been able<BR>
to get a copy for the library.  Sorry to here you lost a book.  I'm still<BR>
waiting for a friend to find and return my copy of SLAM's "Men against<BR>
fire". Anyone got a copy they want to sell me?<BR>
<BR>
Tod <BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:05:29 +0800<BR>
From: Nattrass <wulfren@iinet.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Jamming Meson Comms (was: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
Is there any way to jam meson comms?<BR>
Theoretically a probe with a meson shield which is in between the 2 vessels<BR>
would block the communication<BR>
In my talons I shape clay.....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:03:14 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Combat Pistol (was: shipboard combat)<BR>
<BR>
    FYI for the Miami Vice episode; that shooter's name is Jim Zubiena, and<BR>
he is a card carrying IPSC/USPSA Shooter. He and his wife are avid pistol<BR>
shooters.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 8:57 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Combat Pistol (was: shipboard combat)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/23/00 9:27 AM, Rodney Basler at rgb@odetics.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> > Subject: Re: Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> on 6/22/00 4:48 PM, Rodney Basler at rgb@odetics.com wrote:<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> Now the latest crop of games score on ammo consumption...silly me, I<BR>
was<BR>
> >>> taught to double-tap.  Hard habit to break  :)<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Mozambique drill.  Two to the chest, one to the head.<BR>
> >><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Damn straight, though I was responding more to the (was it the "El<BR>
> > Presidente"?) drill.  Three targets:  three double-taps from left to<BR>
right,<BR>
> > reload, repeat. (and yes, it was a .45 ... 89 years and still going<BR>
strong).<BR>
> > I was taught that the Mozambique drill was for engaging targets that<BR>
> > (suprise!) were wearing body armor.<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> What, a fellow IPSC shooter!  Well do I remember "El Presidente".  You<BR>
> forgot to mention the part about starting from the surrender position with<BR>
> your BACK to the target.  And that 3 seconds was a losing time.<BR>
><BR>
> I recall a specific episode of Miami Vice.  It seems that Michael Mann got<BR>
> to see an IPSC match and was amazed at the speed and accuracy of the<BR>
> shooters.  He recruited on of the upper end shooters for an episode.  The<BR>
is<BR>
> a great scene at the very beginning where the IPSC guy, playing a baddie,<BR>
is<BR>
> caught by an officer.  The baddie draws, does 2 to the chest, one to the<BR>
> head in a long second.  Friends not in the know assured me it was all done<BR>
> with trick photography.  It wasn't.  We had hours of fun running that<BR>
scene<BR>
> on the VCR at slow playback.<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
> --<BR>
> "Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
> killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
> --<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:19:56 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
At 0:52 -0400 23/6/00,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
>Kevlar is hard to *break*. High tensile strength. That's how it stops<BR>
>bullets, as they have to expend a lot of energy breaking or displacing<BR>
>fibers.<BR>
><BR>
>But kevlar is *easy* to cut. About the same as nylon...<BR>
<BR>
Would a sabot round puncture it?<BR>
<BR>
>I'm a *far* better shot than I am with a sword. Guess which I've had<BR>
>more practice with?<BR>
<BR>
Sword - you've previously mentioned SCA stuff.. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:43:00 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Running out of Ammo<BR>
<BR>
At 0:21 -0400 24/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
> > having my gunslinger character, when he knew he was going into a fight,<BR>
> > carry a double holster rig for his .45s (NOT to fire two guns at <BR>
>once, which<BR>
> > nobody did, but to have a loaded gun when the first ran out)<BR>
>popularly known as a New York reload.<BR>
<BR>
And taken to extremes in 'The Matrix'.<BR>
<BR>
..and Feng Shui!<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:09:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Mozambique drill.  Two to the chest, one to the head.<BR>
><BR>
> Or Tod's basic rule of gun combat: "Shoot till it falls over.  Then shoot<BR>
> some more".<BR>
<BR>
That reminds me of a couple of bouts during Dragon's Mist Defender's<BR>
Tourney this last weekend.<BR>
<BR>
One fighter would get a killing blow, and land about 3 more before his<BR>
oppenent had time to fall down!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:22:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> > Use the future location of the planet as your target. Since<BR>
>> > the Tigress is blockading your planet than you should be able<BR>
>> > to attack it. if not than maybe the next ship will, you do have<BR>
>> > 1,000 Scout ships in this example.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Keep in mind that jump *duration* varies by hours. And during those<BR>
>> hours the planet moves. Moves a *lot*.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, so? No set of canon Traveller rules I am aware of make<BR>
> any relationship (barring misjump) between the time length of <BR>
> a jump and the accuracy of a jump. Since solar systems are<BR>
> constantly moving ships _must_  either be able to target<BR>
> relative location like 'A million klicks from the planet'<BR>
> or ships can somehow arrange things to that when they come<BR>
> out of jump the target planet just happens to be there.<BR>
><BR>
> YMMV but how else does the ship (which canonically does not<BR>
> know how long it will be in jump) manage to usually come<BR>
> out pretty close to the planet (or the stars 100 diameter<BR>
> limit whichever comes first)?<BR>
<BR>
Well, it *has* to pop out if it runs into the 100 diameter limit of<BR>
*anything*. Which, btw leads to a few logical problems with jump<BR>
duration that Marc hasn't really thought thru.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:24:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
><BR>
>>> In MT the distance you appear from your target depends on<BR>
>>> how well you make your Astrogation roll. Since jump duration<BR>
>>> is highly variable but this does not affect how far away from<BR>
>>> your target your ship appears it seems likely to me that when<BR>
>>> you jump you are targeting not an exact location but rather<BR>
>>> a location relative to the planets gravity well.<BR>
>>> Otherwise if you made a six day jump than you would appear <BR>
>>> where the planet would be in a day and if you made an eight<BR>
>>> day jump you would appear where the planet was a day ago. Since <BR>
>>> this is not how jumps work in Traveller than it seems to me<BR>
>>> that the Astogator's task is to target a gravinometric location<BR>
>>> not a spatial one.<BR>
><BR>
>> Sorry, but the rules actually don't say one way or the other. <BR>
><BR>
> Yes they do.<BR>
><BR>
> MT Imperial Encyclopedia p 93 Starship Operating procedures<BR>
><BR>
> " 10 Emerge from Jumpspace<BR>
><BR>
> The ship emerges from jumpspace. the ship emerges at the<BR>
> limit of the gravity well (at about 100 diameters out) of<BR>
> the destination world that the navigator designated in jump<BR>
> preparation."<BR>
<BR>
And Marc has also stated that a ship pops out of jump when it runs into<BR>
the 100 diameter limit of *anything*.<BR>
<BR>
The problem with *both* of these is that since objects *do* move, And<BR>
move by a lot more than the diameter of the 100 diameter "sphere", you<BR>
can have the ship pop out when it crosses that line, or you can have it<BR>
pop out after a week +/-. But you can't have it do *both*. Because if<BR>
it takes a week to get to the intervening body, then the body *won't*<BR>
be in the way. But if it takes a week to get to the "destination", it<BR>
*will* pass thru the 100 diameter limit of the intervening body.<BR>
<BR>
So, the rules about jump are busted anyway. <BR>
<BR>
Assuming you jump for a specific *point* in space causes the fewest<BR>
problems, even if it doesn't match the *letter* of the rules.<BR>
<BR>
The rule you quote is pretty obviously intended as a simplification,<BR>
for folks who don't worry about stuff like planets moving. <BR>
<BR>
Hell, the rules don't mention that if the planet orbits in the right<BR>
plane there will be times of year that you *can't* jump to the 100<BR>
diameter limit, because you'd be jumping thru the star.<BR>
<BR>
The rules are *simplified* GUIDELINES.<BR>
<BR>
> So as I have quoted a six day jump = emerge at 100 diameters.<BR>
> A seven day jump = emerge at 100 diameters. An eight day<BR>
> jump = emerge at 100 diameters.<BR>
><BR>
> Given that the solar system moves during this time the ship <BR>
> either must be able to hit a moving target or set things up<BR>
> ahead of time so that physical location at time X will be<BR>
> the 100 diameter limit and your physical location at time<BR>
> X = 48 hours will be 100 diameters from wherever the planet<BR>
> or star has moved to.<BR>
<BR>
Or the rules leave this out for the people who don't know how to<BR>
calculate this.<BR>
<BR>
>> That may not be the way *you* play it, but frankly,<BR>
>> playing it any other way makes *less* sense.<BR>
><BR>
> It's what the rules say to do.<BR>
<BR>
See my comments about the "if something gets in the way, you pop out at<BR>
*its* 100 diameter limit, but after the same amount of time the jump<BR>
would have taken if it wasn't in the way" rule. That rule contradicts<BR>
itself. <BR>
<BR>
>> Sure, you jump for where the planet will be if your jump takes the<BR>
>> "average" time. At worst, you've added some hours to the time it takes<BR>
>> you to reach orbit. <BR>
><BR>
> Not according to MT rules you don't.<BR>
<BR>
And as I've said before, when the rules are broken, ignore them in<BR>
favor of something that gives a *sensible* answer.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:15:38 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> On looking at old files, it appears that population digits were completely<BR>
>> randomly assigned, with equal probability 1-9.  That's an inane curve given<BR>
>> the log nature of population codes, and I totally ignored them in my<BR>
>> mapping programs.  I was thinking of remapping as follows:<BR>
>> P  Mult<BR>
>> 1: 1.00-1.29<BR>
>> 2: 1.29-1.67<BR>
>> 3: 1.67-2.16<BR>
>> 4: 2.16-2.79<BR>
>> 5: 2.79-3.60<BR>
>> 6: 3.60-4.66<BR>
>> 7: 4.66-6.02<BR>
>> 8: 6.02-7.78<BR>
>> 9: 7.78-10.0<BR>
>> (these numbers are 10^((P-1)/9) to 10^(P/9))<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Comments?  Seem reasonable?<BR>
><BR>
> Am I missing something here?<BR>
<BR>
Yes.<BR>
<BR>
> If I'm reading your chart correctly, a Pop 2 world could only have a<BR>
> population of 129-167.  Meanwhile, the lowest population possible on a<BR>
> Pop 6 world would be 3,600,000, and the highest possible population<BR>
> would be 4,660,000.<BR>
<BR>
> The population multiplier (P) is a means of translating the Pop code<BR>
> (10^p) into hard numbers (P*10^p).  For instance, a world with a Pop<BR>
> code of 4 could have a Pop multiplier of 3, indicating 30,000<BR>
> inhabitants, or even a Pop multiplier of 9, indicating 90,000<BR>
> inhabitants.<BR>
<BR>
He's talking about the population multiplier. Making it logarithmic,<BR>
just like the population code is.<BR>
<BR>
Thus a pop 6 world with a pop multiplier of 3 would have 1.67-2.16<BR>
million people.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:15:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Tsykoduk writes:<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> I ran a cool GT fire fight in a werehouse<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
><BR>
>         I am so sorry, but I can't resist:  did you have the fight<BR>
>         in a guy that turns into a house on a full moon?<BR>
><BR>
>         :)<BR>
><BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
I wanna know what happens when the moon *sets*, and people are still<BR>
inside fighting. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:21:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Population Digits (PBG)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 06/23/00 at 04:18 PM,  John Groth <wombat@premier.net> said:<BR>
><BR>
>>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> On looking at old files, it appears that population digits were completely<BR>
>>> randomly assigned, with equal probability 1-9.  That's an inane curve <BR>
> given<BR>
>>> the log nature of population codes, and I totally ignored them in my<BR>
>>> mapping programs.  I was thinking of remapping as follows:<BR>
><BR>
> Echoing John's "Why?" <BR>
><BR>
> Given that the pop code is derived with a normal (ish) curve, why<BR>
> shouldn't the population digit *within* the population code be<BR>
> uniform?<BR>
<BR>
Because the *population* generated *isn't* a "normal curve. Not even<BR>
remotely so.<BR>
<BR>
The *logarithm* of the population is. That's the pop code from the<BR>
rules. <BR>
<BR>
> What I mean is that given a pop code of 3 represents populations<BR>
> from 1,000 to 9,999, is there some reason that, for example, 5,000<BR>
> should be preferred over 2,000 or 8,000?  Perhaps 8,000 should be<BR>
> preferred over both 5,000 and 2,000, but I just don't see where the<BR>
> population should cluster around the center points of each factor of<BR>
> ten.<BR>
<BR>
That's not what his table does. <BR>
<BR>
Let's call the pop code P and the multiplier M. Currently, the<BR>
population is:<BR>
<BR>
	population = M*10^P<BR>
<BR>
With his setup, it's:<BR>
<BR>
	population = 10^P.M<BR>
<BR>
The former gives really *weird* curve. The latter gives a more<BR>
reasonable curve.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:13:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 09:52 PM 6/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>on 6/22/00 5:48 PM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Your players need to learn about tactical reloads.  Never shoot you gun dry<BR>
>>(unless you don't have a choice).  Whenever there is a lull, top off or swap<BR>
>>magazines.<BR>
><BR>
> Amen! After training excercises I was always fishing out magazines with<BR>
> three or four rounds from my cargo pockets.  Everytime I got low and had a<BR>
> second, I slapped in a fresh magazine.<BR>
<BR>
Not sure how that'd work with my SKS. 10-round stripper clips.<BR>
<BR>
Anybody know if there's a problem with trying to do a partial reload<BR>
using stripper clips?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:43:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Killing up close<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> One of the things we always used as "orientation material" for new D&D<BR>
>> players was the bit at the start of the second episode of Connections,<BR>
>> where James Burke swings the sword at the side of beef.<BR>
><BR>
> I don't recall this bit, if I ever saw it - can you describe?<BR>
<BR>
He's on the field at Hastings, describing the battle. He picks up a<BR>
sword that's stuck point first in the ground and says something about<BR>
the terrible wounds the swords gave, and that he's going to demonstrate<BR>
on the side of beef (which is hanging from a support outside the view<BR>
of the camera) "because that's all a man is in combat, a side of beef"<BR>
(or words fairly close to that). He swings the sword (a so-so swing),<BR>
and it hacks thru some ribs, etc for about 18 inches or so.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2649<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2650</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/24/00 9:36:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, June 24 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2650<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Running out of Ammo<BR>
Re: Jo Combat (Was: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
Re: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
Cutlass Drill and Marine Weapons<BR>
Re: MoH<BR>
Re: Jamming Meson Comms (was: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller)<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: shipboard weapon use<BR>
Re: Partial reloads<BR>
Re: Views from Space<BR>
Re: Jamming Meson Comms<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Running out of Ammo<BR>
Re: shipboard combat<BR>
Culture and war in the Imperium (wasMarine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:31:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Running out of Ammo<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ah, those were the glorious days of CT combat! Take out the guy with the<BR>
> shotgun first (no armor at medium range and 4D of damage?!), actually using<BR>
> the drawing rules...When I was running a D&D campaign, I once ran a Trav Old<BR>
> West game as a change of pace. The scenario was loosely based on "The Good,<BR>
> the Bad, and the Ugly" in that half of the group had half the location of<BR>
> the buried gold, and the other half had the rest of the info. After a<BR>
> three-way firefight at the end, the PCs won and had all the gold lying<BR>
> around them, leading to my finest "deviant GM" moment:<BR>
><BR>
> Moe (celebrating, arms upraised): Chris, we won!<BR>
> GM: You know Chris, you still have your gun out...<BR>
<BR>
That's *cruel*. Fun, but cruel.<BR>
<BR>
> Needless to say, only one PC got out alive...<BR>
<BR>
Duh!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:39:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Jo Combat (Was: Marine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Ah, sir, you have me at a serious disadvantage!<<BR>
><BR>
> Ack!<BR>
> Please, no. That is why I rarely even mention my rank. I am student like<BR>
> everyone else. I am a professional, but I don't get to trump anyone's<BR>
> opinion (except where I teach :-P) just because of my rank.<BR>
<BR>
"Yes, sensei."<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
Seriously, while I know something about SCA combat, I'm no way *able*<BR>
to do that sort of thing anymore. Still, listening to experts is fun.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:50:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:44:22 -0400 (EDT), "J. Paul Sanders"<BR>
> <timmon@primenet.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>At 07:51 PM 6/23/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>>>For a variant human culture that *can't* join the Imperium, check out<BR>
>>>>"Courtship Rite" by Donald Kingsbury. <BR>
><BR>
>>>More info, please?<BR>
><BR>
>>The humans in Courtship Rite have a highly inculturated taste for human <BR>
> flesh<BR>
>>:)<BR>
>>All in all a red zone planet I would think (and a great read besides).<BR>
><BR>
> The taste for human flesh isn't a problem in and of itself - the<BR>
> problem comes if the acquisition method is not entirely voluntary<BR>
> on the part of the acquired...<BR>
<BR>
Slavery, and raising children to be eaten ought to qualify...<BR>
<BR>
Though given the bio-tech they've developed/retained, it may be<BR>
arguable that these are no longer strictly human...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:56:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Assuming that a ship has some sort of internal fire (say a fuel hit in the<BR>
> T4 rules), what does this appear to those outside of the ship?<BR>
<BR>
A while I haven't read those rules, I seriously doubt that a fuel hit<BR>
is a fire unless the *specificly* say so. <BR>
<BR>
A fuel hit means that part of the tankage has been opened to space. The<BR>
fuel will boil out rapidly (at least at first, there's a small chance<BR>
that the rapid evaporation in low pressure could freeze some of the<BR>
fuel). <BR>
<BR>
> A brief flame inside the ship that is quickly snuffed out due to lack of<BR>
> oxygen to fuel it?  Somehow the Hollywood depiction of smoldering ships (a<BR>
> la starship troopers and a whole host of others) doesn't seem right to me...<BR>
<BR>
Oxygen/hydrogen mixes only burn (and more likely *explode*) when the<BR>
mix has the right proportions. Anything *below* 4% of hydrogen is safe,<BR>
as is anything *above* 74%. Which means you could actually safely<BR>
*breathe* an O2/H2 mix at normal pressure (3 psi of O2 is only 20%, so<BR>
the H2 would be 80%). I wouldn't recommend it though.<BR>
<BR>
The only time you'll see shipsd burning is if there's a supply of both<BR>
fuel *and* oxidizer in the right proportions. And smoke will dissipate<BR>
*fast* in a vacuum (it's actually extremely fine *dust*).<BR>
<BR>
So from outside you won't see a lot. Besides, at combat ranges you<BR>
can't *see* the other ships at all! If you are close enough to see the<BR>
other ship with the naked eye, that's the equivalent of having your gun<BR>
barrel shoved into someone's gut (or nostril, if you've seen some films<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:48:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 23 Jun 2000 07:53:58 -0000, shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>In mail, Traveller-Culture@egroups.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>> [Posted to both TML and TravCult; threads welcome both places.]<BR>
><BR>
>>> My choices:<BR>
><BR>
>>> (1) Tines, from Vernor Vinge's _A_Fire_Upon_The_Deep_.  A<BR>
>>> medieval pack-mind society that could be dropped just about<BR>
>>> anywhere and fit, unchanged. Read the book if you haven't.<BR>
>>> Interesting alternative: instead of ultrasonic communication<BR>
>>> between pack members, use telepathy; what are the ramifications<BR>
>>> if the Imperium discovers this, especially if the telepathy<BR>
>>> doesn't work with non-Tines?  Once the Tines are contacted and<BR>
>>> given access to technology, what sort of accommodations are made<BR>
>>> for their special needs?  What are the ramifications of<BR>
>>> "full-press contact" between one of the Major Races and the Tines<BR>
>>> - as contrasted with the accidental contact of two children and a<BR>
>>> couple of library computers (and later low-bandwidth<BR>
>>> communication with a very limited group of adults)?<BR>
><BR>
>>I'd hate to face a Tine running a set of fighters, especially if they<BR>
>>use telepathy.<BR>
><BR>
> A Tine wouldn't be running a _set_ of fighters; it would run a<BR>
> single fighter.  First, the intrapack communication was severely<BR>
> range-limited;<BR>
<BR>
Radio handles that. <BR>
<BR>
> second, the dexterity of a single member was<BR>
> severely limited - to do simple things often took two or more<BR>
> members cooperating, and some - like making snowballs, for<BR>
> instance, were totally beyond them.  A Tine of high intelligence<BR>
> _might_ be able to handle all of the Bridge stations of a small<BR>
> starship, but even that wouldn't be clear; they might only be<BR>
> able to manage layouts that were more efficient from a<BR>
> space-utilization view, but which wouldn't be practical for a<BR>
> human (or any single-body intelligence).<BR>
<BR>
Actually, Vinge has a short story (well, less than a novel, anyway)<BR>
that has Tines in it. And there's specific mention of them operating<BR>
fighter swarms. <BR>
<BR>
I suspect that there are ways of dealing with lack of dexterity. "full<BR>
body" waldoes for example.<BR>
<BR>
>>For a variant human culture that *can't* join the Imperium, check out<BR>
>>"Courtship Rite" by Donald Kingsbury. <BR>
><BR>
> More info, please?<BR>
<BR>
Basicly a human colony on a world with native life that's of the wrong<BR>
handedness or some such. It's edible, but most of it doesn't provide<BR>
any nutritional value. Something happens, I forget what, and they lose<BR>
their high tech *and* much of their terran seedstock and animals.  So a<BR>
very strange culture develops. Among other things, not merely<BR>
cannibalism, but raising people for food develops. And the culture is<BR>
*really* strange.<BR>
<BR>
You need to read it, because the above is so barebones it distorts the<BR>
hell out of it.<BR>
<BR>
As I understand, Kingsbury is an anthropologist, so I assume his<BR>
culture was carefully put together.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:34:47 +0100<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Cutlass Drill and Marine Weapons<BR>
<BR>
Just because not all  Marine officers get the Weapon benefit doesn't mean<BR>
they don't bring their sidearms out of the service. A few of the credits<BR>
from other mustering out benefits would represent  the very ordinary weapon<BR>
most Marines use.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, those weapons are property of the military, and may be retained<BR>
by same.<BR>
<BR>
To me, a "Weapon" benefit is more than just a gun or a blade. It's a<BR>
ceremony where the esteemed departing character is presented with his<BR>
service weapon and perhaps a plaque or something similar as a memorial<BR>
gift - and his muster papers indicate that he has received this honor. The<BR>
service is both showing its respect and trust for the leaver, and also<BR>
giving him the means to protect himself wherever he/she goes next.<BR>
<BR>
This "Weapon of Honor" ceremony has no actual concrete meaning, but it's<BR>
taken to mean that the Imperial Military thought you were a good egg and<BR>
gave you a weapon to serve you as you have served in the past, knowing that<BR>
at need, here is an armed and well-intentioned citizen. It cuts a little ice<BR>
with prospective employers, and law enforcement officers when you shoot an<BR>
intruder on your farm/vinyead/office.<BR>
<BR>
"The landholder is an honoraby discharged Marine. he defended his life with<BR>
his Weapon of Honor, and bagged a lowlife into the bargain." as opposed to<BR>
"Where the hell did you get a gauss pistol? And why? Were you just waiting<BR>
for an excuse to try it out on someone?"<BR>
<BR>
I occasionally allow local law variations like "persons possessing a Weapon<BR>
of Honor may retain same in working condition in their dwelling despite all<BR>
other weapons laws." or "Only persons possessing a Weapon of Honor may<BR>
appear armed before Baron Miraille. Such persons are required to be armed in<BR>
the Baron's presence."<BR>
<BR>
- - slight advantages for good citizens. But handy when customs gives the<BR>
pilot a hard time about his SMG but you saunter through with an ACR. Just<BR>
once in a while, mind.<BR>
<BR>
As to cutlasses; they have a genuine utility in boarding actions but the<BR>
real reason Marines get training in cutlass is tradition (IMHO). Same reason<BR>
they teach Sword Drill at Sandringham; so you can look impressive at<BR>
parades, and because... they always have.<BR>
<BR>
For me, I like blade weapons. And I've seen characters do a job on<BR>
firearm-armed guys with cavalry sabres and cutlasses.<BR>
<BR>
MJD<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:28:01 GMT<BR>
From: stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>
Subject: Re: MoH<BR>
<BR>
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: MoH<BR>
<BR>
>VC citations provide equivalent inspiration, I'm sure, but I have no ready <BR>
>acess to them.<BR>
<BR>
Try:<BR>
www.chapter-one.com/vc/default.asp<BR>
<BR>
plus a couple of interesting examples:<BR>
  <BR>
TULBAHADUR PUN <BR>
Rifleman, 3rd Bn. 6th Gurkha Rifles<BR>
Age: 21 <BR>
Nationality: Nepalese <BR>
Deed: On 23 June 1944 at Mogaung, Burma (now Myanmar), during an<BR>
attack on the railway bridge, a section of one of the platoons was<BR>
wiped out with the exception of Rifleman Tulbahadur Pun, his section<BR>
commander and one other. The section commander immediately led a<BR>
charge on the enemy position but was at once badly wounded, as was the<BR>
third man. Rifleman Tulbahadur Pun, with a Bren gun continued the<BR>
charge alone in the face of shattering fire and reaching the position,<BR>
killed three of the occupants and put five more to flight, capturing<BR>
two light machine-guns and much ammunition. He then gave accurate<BR>
supporting fire, enabling the rest of his platoon to reach their<BR>
objective. <BR>
<BR>
  <BR>
STEELE, Gordon Charles <BR>
Lieutenant, Royal Navy <BR>
Age: 26 <BR>
Nationality: English <BR>
Deed: On 18 August 1919 at Kronstadt, Russia, Lieutenant Steele was<BR>
second-in-command of Coastal Motor Boat 88. After this boat had<BR>
entered the harbour her commanding officer was killed and the boat<BR>
thrown off course. Lieutenant Steele took the wheel and steadied the<BR>
boat, lifting the dead officer away from the steering and firing<BR>
position, and torpedoed the battleship Andrei Pervozanni at 100 yards<BR>
range. He then manoeuvred the CMB in a very confined space to get a<BR>
clear shot at the other battleship Petropavlosk before making for the<BR>
safety of the bay.  <BR>
<BR>
 Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:58:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Jamming Meson Comms (was: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
You would have to direct your beam (aim it) at the receiving antenna with<BR>
more power than the transmitting antenna if you are at the same distance as<BR>
him. The closer you get to the receiving antenna the less power is needed.<BR>
Decay would certainly be a factor in your calculations too. It would take a<BR>
lot of computing power as well as the meson transmitter.<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris (ASI K3 - Electronic Warfare Operator)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "John Groth" <wombat@premier.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 8:39 PM<BR>
Subject: Jamming Meson Comms (was: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
> ><BR>
> > The best way would be to jam the<BR>
> > signals between ships.  Once meson communicators are<BR>
> > developed even that tactic isn't possible.<BR>
><BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
><BR>
> Is there any way to jam meson comms?<BR>
><BR>
> I would think that a continual (but relatively low-power) stream of<BR>
> decaying mesons on the receiving ship might at least degrade reception.<BR>
><BR>
> Any thoughts on this?<BR>
><BR>
> Do any 98Gs (or the equivalent in other services) wish to give their Cr<BR>
> 0.02?<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 08:31:49 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
on 6/23/00 12:19 PM, SD Mooney at dom@cybergoths.u-net.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 0:52 -0400 23/6/00,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
>> Kevlar is hard to *break*. High tensile strength. That's how it stops<BR>
>> bullets, as they have to expend a lot of energy breaking or displacing<BR>
>> fibers.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> But kevlar is *easy* to cut. About the same as nylon...<BR>
> <BR>
> Would a sabot round puncture it?<BR>
> <BR>
>> I'm a *far* better shot than I am with a sword. Guess which I've had<BR>
>> more practice with?<BR>
> <BR>
> Sword - you've previously mentioned SCA stuff.. ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Dom<BR>
<BR>
Actually, while most ballistic vest will stop conventional pistol bullets,<BR>
they are no match for most rifle rounds (unless ceramic or metal plates are<BR>
used).  However, even in this case they can redude the damage dome by rifle<BR>
rounds.  See the  Korean War era report ALCLAD on the effects of body armor<BR>
on on combat survivability.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 08:33:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
Ahhh... no problem - I can make D&D seem like a scary combat system - Gurps<BR>
is just fine.. tho I am probally going to pick up ACQ just for the fun<BR>
reading :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
Berry<BR>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 8:42 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 10:25 PM 6/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>But - I have 2 armchair military experts.. it is far beyond me to tell them<BR>
>_anything_ ;>... they just seem to get shot a lot. They did learn the cover<BR>
>thing tho..<BR>
<BR>
Got ACQ?  It's great for making the mighty humble.<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 08:34:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
Yup... it got really messy when the sun came up!<BR>
<BR>
LOL<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Ian Ferguson<BR>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 10:28 AM<BR>
To: traveller@mpgn.com<BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tsykoduk writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
I ran a cool GT fire fight in a werehouse<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I am so sorry, but I can't resist:  did you have the fight<BR>
	in a guy that turns into a house on a full moon?<BR>
<BR>
	:)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 08:42:41 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: shipboard weapon use<BR>
<BR>
on 6/22/00 1:28 AM, Robert Houghton at rhoughto@one.net.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> What about riot shields? A wall of modern style SWAT shields would be good in<BR>
> boarding/ anti-boarding attempts...are there rules for this?<BR>
> <BR>
> Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
This is an interesting thought.  Federal agents and some swat teams train<BR>
with "body bunkers" for building raids.  The lead person carries large<BR>
'bullet proof' shield with a bright spotlight, with the 'stack' of team<BR>
members behind them.  Wen they burst into a room, the bunker leads, with the<BR>
whole team exploding into the room.  The bunker tends to draw attention of<BR>
the baddies, resists fire and makes a dandy brawling tool.  Make sure it's<BR>
carries by someone strong.<BR>
<BR>
It seems to my that it would be perfect for boarding parties.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:42:39 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Partial reloads<BR>
<BR>
> Anybody know if there's a problem with trying to do a partial reload<BR>
>  using stripper clips?<BR>
<BR>
Not a problem on a Commission Pattern Mauser (M1888), but I have no <BR>
expereince with other stripper clip weapons. Can one do a partial reload with <BR>
(say) an M1 Garand? I'm inclined to think not, but I've never fired one, <BR>
never loaded one, and only handled one once or twice.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 16:41:35 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Views from Space<BR>
<BR>
Moin Thom Jones-Low,<BR>
<BR>
> 	This is an interesting sight: <BR>
> http://terraserver.microsoft.com/printimage.asp?S=14&T=1&X=93&Y=1493&Z=18&W=1<BR>
<BR>
  I can not help, but americal cities always look as if designed by cim-city.<BR>
<BR>
> 	Heres a shot of the players decent into a startport:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=13&T=1&X=208&Y=2932&Z=19&W=1<BR>
<BR>
  'kaleu - I have a decent shot of the landing position the natives gave us.'<BR>
<BR>
  'it looks as if they want us to water near a city - tell em that we have<BR>
   HEPlaR drives - if we land on those small stripes, they would need a new<BR>
   airport - watering would be posssible - but it would mean that they have<BR>
   to remove any water vessel from the landing area.'<BR>
<BR>
  'tell em - we could prepare downfall at the given position on 1:43, 3:18,<BR>
   4:53 and 6:28 localtime - but I advice they offer us a less populated area<BR>
   - there also was a large city in the middle of the desert - ask them about<BR>
   that place or a similar place.'<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 16:14:39 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Jamming Meson Comms<BR>
<BR>
Moin John Groth,<BR>
<BR>
> Is there any way to jam meson comms?<BR>
<BR>
  use a meson accellerator - this will cause the oponent to raise the <BR>
  meson screen, blocking himself from meson communication ;-)<BR>
<BR>
  even small meson guns (36mj) do some internal damage, and are quite<BR>
  cheap from Tl:D+ - its imho likely that those small meson guns will<BR>
  overload any meson receiver.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:25:42<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
At 09:41 PM 6/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>My .02Cr: I always thought that the cutlass was taught in part for the<BR>
>discipline and physical exertion, and because it trains the student to get<BR>
>into the "I am in lethal combat now" state of mind. Coolness factor counts<BR>
>too, and blades are great parade weapons. Once the person knows the art, it<BR>
>adds a nice supplement to ones options, but still gets outweighed often by<BR>
>your other options, like firearms, grenades, etc.<BR>
<BR>
In the coolness factor, those fun folks at Museum Replicas Limited have a<BR>
"Pirate's Cutlass" in their latest catalog (#61).  This is a heavy, fairly<BR>
short-bladed weapon, 28.5" overall, 22.5" x 2" blade, basket hilt, 2 lbs,<BR>
10oz.  When I get back to work, I will horde tips to have this thing by<BR>
next BayCon for the Marine Dress maroon uniform I'm working on.<BR>
<BR>
See for yourself:<BR>
<BR>
http://store.museumreplicas.com/cgi-bin/www11650.storefront/<BR>
<BR>
and search "Pirate Cutlass."<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
 "Non possum existimare plus quemquem facini"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:29:00<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Running out of Ammo<BR>
<BR>
At 10:43 AM 6/24/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>And taken to extremes in 'The Matrix'.<BR>
<BR>
When I saw that sequence start, I started giggling.  Kirsten elbowed me and<BR>
asked what was so funny.  I told her that finally, somebody had done a<BR>
movie that looked like a RPG.  The characters had more guns than sense.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:30:48<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
At 11:15 PM 6/23/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I ran a cool GT fire fight in a werehouse<BR>
>><BR>
>>         I am so sorry, but I can't resist:  did you have the fight<BR>
>>         in a guy that turns into a house on a full moon?<BR>
<BR>
>I wanna know what happens when the moon *sets*, and people are still<BR>
>inside fighting. :-)<BR>
<BR>
*burp*<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:34:08 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Culture and war in the Imperium (wasMarine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/23/00 7:28 AM, rgd@infinet.com at rgd@infinet.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 09:01:55PM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> that they are so much more 'antiseptic'.  Col. Grossman disusses this in his<BR>
>> book "On Killing".  Humans have a natural aversion to killing their fellow<BR>
>> man.  And the closer and more human the target, the harder it is.<BR>
> <BR>
> After reading "The Barbarians" about the 9AD-1453AD history, I came<BR>
> away wondering how different were the attitude and culture of those<BR>
> peoples that seemed to kill with ease and little remorse or other<BR>
> consequences - even relishing it for the perceived glory of victorious<BR>
> combat.  Have we changed that much?  How much would the culture change<BR>
> in 3000 years - either more humanitarian (or maybe closer to Niven's<BR>
> Known Space - outlawing martial arts) or less, i.e. more barbaric (if<BR>
> the enemy were faceless in combat armor, or alien 'bugs' or<BR>
> propagandized to seem that way)?<BR>
> <BR>
> Rob<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Remember that unlike today, in the ancient past, people were exposed to<BR>
death and horrific injury daily.  Further, their society supported the<BR>
actions of their warriors, lauding them with great honors for acts that<BR>
would be considered atrocities by today's society.<BR>
<BR>
In modern times, society at large is isolated by death, and the 'mere' act<BR>
of killing, even in self-defense, is viewed as deeply morally wrong.  We<BR>
have huge numbers of protestors opposing the death penalty for even the most<BR>
heinous of crimes.  Or society says, in effect, no-one, not even the most<BR>
craven, deserves to be killed. Vietnam veterans returning from war were<BR>
decried as 'baby-killers', not greeted as heroes and given parades.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: <BR>
<BR>
In a large measure, the effectiveness of soldiers, their morale, will be<BR>
dependant on the culture they come from.  If the Imperial culture as a whole<BR>
is relatively bloodthirsty, then It will have good soldiers (i.e. troops who<BR>
can function well in the bloodbath of war). If the culture is more benign<BR>
and values life to a greater extent, then we would perhaps expect certain<BR>
planets with marshal/warrior cultures to produce the best troops.<BR>
<BR>
This is the model I use IMTU.  With naval combat, culture is less of an<BR>
issue, since you just destroying 'things' (i.e. enemy ships). But when it<BR>
comes to infantry combat, certain planets reputations for producing warriors<BR>
is far out of scale compared to that same worlds economic or political<BR>
power. "The 256th marine strike battalion is composed primarily of Cameroon<BR>
Highlanders.  Tough and nasty".<BR>
<BR>
The most feared troops IMTU are from a relatively low-tech mono-culture that<BR>
is very warlike and has ancient barbarian traditions (of course, they view<BR>
the rest of the universe as 'barbarians').  They, like the Ghurkas, can<BR>
cause panic and even surrender in the enemy by there mere presence on the<BR>
battlefield "Sengi troops. No way I'm going against them.  Man, they cut off<BR>
heads and drink human blood. 9 feet tall the barbed swords that rip the<BR>
fless right off you still-living body".  They are, in fact 'allies' of the<BR>
Imperium.  A political advantage.  "The Sengi sacked your city, committed<BR>
horrible atrocities.  Well, they are only our allies--what can we really<BR>
do?"<BR>
<BR>
Conversely, IMTU the Solomani rim is a highly 'evolved' place were the<BR>
average citizen abhors the idea of violence, even to animals (vegitarianism<BR>
is very common).  But there are a certain percentage of people predisposed<BR>
to or tolerant of violence.  These are naturally drawn to military service<BR>
or are snapped up by SolSec.  These sociopath usually represent about 2% of<BR>
the population.  If more are required, the cold blooded leaders in the<BR>
Confederation are more than willing to use their SolSec developed<BR>
condtioning techniques to produce the masses of killers that may be<BR>
required.  The ultimate expression of this is the elite Solomani CRI<BR>
(Conditioned Reflex Infantry).  Take the cream of the 2% killers.  Give them<BR>
the best equipment and training.  Then use classical and operant<BR>
conditioning in its most advanced for to create soldiers who can act<BR>
literally 'at the speed of reflex'. Build them a marshal art designed by<BR>
computer analysis of the human body based on natural weaponry and<BR>
vulnerability.  Take all the marshal arts out there and strip away all the<BR>
flash and posturing, leaving only the raw base techniques "nothing fancy,<BR>
just kill them".  Train them using pain/pleasure stimulus response.  Use<BR>
biofeedback conditioning so they can voluntarily control the release of<BR>
epinepherine and other biological systems.  And naturally screen and/or<BR>
condition them so that their political orthodoxy is without question.  Now<BR>
you have a weapon.<BR>
<BR>
"there is no such thing as a dangerous weapon.  Only dangerous people"<BR>
- -Heinlein<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
so that there politcal orthodo<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2650<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2651</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, June 24 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2651<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Real Men<BR>
Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2644<BR>
RE: shipboard weapon use<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Partial reloads<BR>
Re: shipboard combat<BR>
Body Bunker (was:  shipboard weapon use)<BR>
Re: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Jo Combat (was Marine Cutlass)<BR>
Viliani (was: Jo Combat  (was Marine Cutlass))<BR>
IT Geeks<BR>
Re: Views from Space<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2649<BR>
Vinge Storyu(was Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller)<BR>
Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
Details of Stuff at FLGS inc SOpM, WBH, HT, Knightfall<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:36:44 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Real Men<BR>
<BR>
on 6/23/00 7:38 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Real men fight with swords, so they can look each other in the eye . . .<BR>
> sometimes, this is not possible, and for that, there is the rifle. But the<BR>
> Europeans have guns that fire many bullets at once, and rend the Earth<BR>
> promiscously . . . this is not war -- it is slaughter."<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
For some reason this reminded my of the French quote about the Light<BR>
Brigade's action at Balaclava:<BR>
<BR>
"It is magnificient, but it is not war"<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:51:02 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
<BR>
on 6/23/00 8:24 AM, VonRammen at von_rammen@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> I once read a story about two guys in Tombstone, AZ, during the 1880s<BR>
> getting into a firefight from less than 15 feet away and emptying their<BR>
> revolvers without hitting each other once!<BR>
<BR>
Wo need to go back that far.  When I lived in Spokane we had a guy rip of a<BR>
sporting goods store.  He got into a gunfight with the two gun counter<BR>
employees in the store, while customers blithely wandered through the lane<BR>
of fire.  No one was injured.  On exiting the store, the bad guy attempted<BR>
to carjack a ride, as he had use the bus to get him to the store.<BR>
<BR>
The first car he stopped happened to be an off duty police officer.  There<BR>
ensued a gunfight at what can only be described as 'point blank' range.  The<BR>
officer was seated in his car, the bad guy standing right next to the<BR>
vehicle.  They were literally within touching distance.<BR>
<BR>
Both combatants emptied their weapons.  No one was hit.  The officer<BR>
wrestled the bad guy to the ground and subdued him with punches and kicks.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, the reverse is true as well.<BR>
<BR>
A Nevada state, known for his sang froid, pulled over a bad guy, who<BR>
immediately bolted from his car and began running.  The officer pursued on<BR>
foot, and the bad guy turned and opened fire with a Browning P-35 and<BR>
emptied the weapon at the officer.  The trooper drew his own S&W .41 mag<BR>
revolver, assumed a target stance, and shot the bad guy right through the<BR>
pump at about 50 yards (while bullets were flying at him).  It was later<BR>
determined that some 10 round of 9mm had actually passed through the<BR>
officers clothing and hat.<BR>
<BR>
Yoww!<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
[snip]<BR>
> Every database project I do has that point where I say, "Next time I write a<BR>
> program, no users!"<BR>
> I'm trying to do more freelance writing, but economics dictate I remain in<BR>
> computing, for a while at least...<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Geez, how may people on this list are in IT/MIS?<BR>
<BR>
> Fred "ODBC Connection Error" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
Solaris Sysadmin, network guru, webmaster and general IT geek.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:22:11 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2644<BR>
<BR>
on 6/23/00 2:44 PM, Chris Seamans at semo@pil.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> What bothers me isn't so much Colonel Grossman's "agenda", but what it is<BR>
> that he tends to leave out. I have not read "On Killing", but I'm familiar<BR>
> with Grossman's use, in various articles I've read, of the statistics<BR>
> Marshall compiled for his book "Men Against Fire". I'm also familiar with<BR>
> Marshall's book. I have yet to see an article by Grossman which doesn't<BR>
> oversimplify what Marshall was trying to say in support of his own<BR>
> universal-innate-human-aversion-to-killing theory.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Chris.  I tend to agree more with Marshall assessment of aversion to<BR>
killing as a cultural phenomenon (which can certainly be psychological as<BR>
well).  Marshall was looking at the rates of fire of American troops.<BR>
<BR>
> To throw some more wood onto the fire, Marshall has been accused of<BR>
> inventing his data. I personally don't think that this is true, but as<BR>
> Marshall explains, he didn't crosscheck his own data with the data of other<BR>
> historians. I'm not familiar with the full extent of the evidence (or lack<BR>
> thereof) which points to problems with Marshall's methodology, so I would<BR>
> advise anyone who's interested to do a bit of reasearch on their own.<BR>
<BR>
I have heard that argument, however after-action interviews conducted on<BR>
British troops in the Falklands campaign tend to support Marshall's<BR>
contention.  Over 90% of British troops, trained in the 'modern' style fired<BR>
their weapons. In contrast, for Argentine troops trained in the classical<BR>
style, the rate was reported as 10-15%.<BR>
<BR>
Also recall that Marshal conducted his surveys in Korea, as well, primarily<BR>
to see if new training techniques were having any effect (they were, firing<BR>
rates were up to 50%).<BR>
<BR>
I do recommend Grossman's book, which is apparently much more scholarly than<BR>
the man in person.  Whether or not you agree with his positions, he is very<BR>
good at citing sources that the reader themselves can look at and draw their<BR>
own conclusions. Critiquing someone's work without actually reading it is<BR>
always suspect. (an observation and not pointed at anyone on this list).<BR>
> <BR>
> None of this is meant to imply that Grossman is wrong, just that his sources<BR>
> don't necessarily line up as nicely as he attempted to imply in the articles<BR>
> which I've read. I do have certain more personal problems with Grossman.<BR>
> During the aftermath of Columbine he was on television quite a bit and he<BR>
> was quite rude to scholars who held opinions which were different from his<BR>
> own. The most stellar case was during the Commerce Committee hearings when<BR>
> he called MIT's Professor Henry Jenkins a "film reviewer" and a journalism<BR>
> professor. Jenkins is neither, he studies the effect of the media on<BR>
> children, and Grossman's comments could only come from someone who was<BR>
> playing the discrediting game, or someone who didn't do the proper work to<BR>
> check out a fellow panelist and scholar. Either, in my humble opinion, is<BR>
> utterly unacceptable.<BR>
<BR>
I agree with you there.  I think the point that Grossman makes about operant<BR>
conditioning by the media IS valid, however. The media is quick to point the<BR>
blame at the availability of guns for incidents like Columbine, while<BR>
ignoring their own responsibility.  If anything, guns are as available or<BR>
less so than they were in the past, but violence in the media has definitely<BR>
increased.  Most disturbing though, I think, is Grossman's contention that<BR>
violent video games are acting as operant conditioning agents, without any<BR>
moral framework.  Mind you, I enjoy a nice shoot 'em up myself, but a 6 year<BR>
old playing a game that reward him for shooting things--even bystanders.<BR>
Scary.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, this is WAAAAAY OT for this list.  Back to trav.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:20:10 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard weapon use<BR>
<BR>
Especially with "modern" ;) TL 12-15 armor composites.  It would give new<BR>
meaning to the phrase "body bunker", and SERIOUSLY make the shield man your<BR>
friend!<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
D6 Airsoft Team CQB Shieldman<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 8:43 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: shipboard weapon use<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> on 6/22/00 1:28 AM, Robert Houghton at rhoughto@one.net.au wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > What about riot shields? A wall of modern style SWAT shields<BR>
> would be good in<BR>
> > boarding/ anti-boarding attempts...are there rules for this?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> This is an interesting thought.  Federal agents and some swat teams train<BR>
> with "body bunkers" for building raids.  The lead person carries large<BR>
> 'bullet proof' shield with a bright spotlight, with the 'stack' of team<BR>
> members behind them.  Wen they burst into a room, the bunker<BR>
> leads, with the<BR>
> whole team exploding into the room.  The bunker tends to draw attention of<BR>
> the baddies, resists fire and makes a dandy brawling tool.  Make sure it's<BR>
> carries by someone strong.<BR>
><BR>
> It seems to my that it would be perfect for boarding parties.<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
> --<BR>
> "Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
> killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
> --<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:22:11 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
Shouldn't be a problem from what I understand.  You'd just have stripper<BR>
clips with partial loads, so if you shot it dry and were fumbling to get it<BR>
reloaded, that clip wouldn't be the prime choice :)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 12:13 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > At 09:52 PM 6/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >>on 6/22/00 5:48 PM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>Your players need to learn about tactical reloads.  Never shoot<BR>
> you gun dry<BR>
> >>(unless you don't have a choice).  Whenever there is a lull,<BR>
> top off or swap<BR>
> >>magazines.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Amen! After training excercises I was always fishing out magazines with<BR>
> > three or four rounds from my cargo pockets.  Everytime I got<BR>
> low and had a<BR>
> > second, I slapped in a fresh magazine.<BR>
><BR>
> Not sure how that'd work with my SKS. 10-round stripper clips.<BR>
><BR>
> Anybody know if there's a problem with trying to do a partial reload<BR>
> using stripper clips?<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:40:15 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Partial reloads<BR>
<BR>
on 6/24/00 8:42 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Anybody know if there's a problem with trying to do a partial reload<BR>
>> using stripper clips?<BR>
> <BR>
> Not a problem on a Commission Pattern Mauser (M1888), but I have no<BR>
> expereince with other stripper clip weapons. Can one do a partial reload with<BR>
> (say) an M1 Garand? I'm inclined to think not, but I've never fired one,<BR>
> never loaded one, and only handled one once or twice.<BR>
> <BR>
> LKW<BR>
> <BR>
The answer is no.  The 'en bloc' clip of the Garand is retained in the<BR>
rifle's magazine.  It is not a stripper clip.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:45:08 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
on 6/24/00 10:22 AM, Jesse DeGraff at jdegraff@pacbell.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Shouldn't be a problem from what I understand.  You'd just have stripper<BR>
> clips with partial loads, so if you shot it dry and were fumbling to get it<BR>
> reloaded, that clip wouldn't be the prime choice :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Jesse<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Experienced German troops in WWI and WWII always kept a bunch of loose<BR>
rounds handy for topping off a half empty rifle.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:59:58 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Body Bunker (was:  shipboard weapon use)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/24/00 10:20 AM, Jesse DeGraff at jdegraff@pacbell.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Especially with "modern" ;) TL 12-15 armor composites.  It would give new<BR>
> meaning to the phrase "body bunker", and SERIOUSLY make the shield man your<BR>
> friend!<BR>
> <BR>
> Jesse<BR>
> D6 Airsoft Team CQB Shieldman<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I think we have something here.  And the body bunker would be cheap when<BR>
compared to combat armor or battle dress as well as an effective counter to<BR>
the cutlass or broad sword.  I build my bunker out of ceramic/carbon fiber<BR>
sandwiched between two titanium plates. Add a bulletproof lexan viewport,<BR>
firing port or notch and a really bright spotlight (think surefire 6-p on<BR>
steroids.  The Bunker should be about 150cm high and say 80 or so wide.<BR>
Easy to carry, yet a person can crouch behind it for mobile cover. It should<BR>
be able to stop a rifle round.<BR>
<BR>
"border with blaster and cutlass, sir."<BR>
"Right, issue pistol and shield."<BR>
<BR>
You can also use you shield as brawling weapon.  Fend of blows from a<BR>
cutlass, pin you opponent to the wall with your shield, then use you pitol<BR>
to blast him through the firing port/notch. And since you abord ship, you<BR>
don't have to lug the damn thing around.<BR>
<BR>
COOL!<BR>
<BR>
OK, how do we build it, use it in trav (i.e. rules for body bunker).  Who<BR>
uses them?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:12:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:15:26 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard <BR>
Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >> inside a werehouse<BR>
> >         I am so sorry, but I can't resist:  did you have the fight<BR>
> >         in a guy that turns into a house on a full moon?<BR>
> >         :)<BR>
><BR>
>I wanna know what happens when the moon *sets*, and people are still<BR>
>inside fighting. :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
SNIT'S REVENGE!<BR>
<BR>
(People on this list have actually been gaming long enough to actually get <BR>
this joke.  I hope.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:36:39 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jo Combat (was Marine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
I said:<BR>
>>Trying to drag things back on Topic: somebody familiar with Vilani culture<BR>
should give some thought to their martial arts. While it's true that most<BR>
martial arts have a great deal in common with each other (I've seen aikido<BR>
pins in tae kwon do, and I know most of the throws come from jiu<BR>
jitsu--human body remains basically the same everywhere, after all), the<BR>
potential exists for some really weird variations...kick-wrestling? Sumo<BR>
with axes?<<<BR>
<BR>
"Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com> responds:<BR>
<BR>
>OK, my one real rant.<BR>
Martial arts combat, outside of movie martial arts, should be identical to<BR>
the regular fighting system. There is nothing overwhelmingly superior about<BR>
a "martial arts" punch over any other sort of punch. Further, what you cite<BR>
above is 100% true despite the wishes of some instructors. A martial art<BR>
doesn't include something only at the desire of the particular instructor.<BR>
Even boxing technically has kicking by the simple fact that it is<BR>
disallowed. It wouldn't be forbidden if it wasn't recognized as being able<BR>
to be done.<BR>
Cinema is fine, but recognize that is what you are doing when you go that<BR>
far.<BR>
(I don't play GURPS so this should not be taken as an informed opinion on<BR>
the GURPS system. It is a general opinion based on those systems I have<BR>
played, all of which fail miserably in my view except for Champions which is<BR>
merely adequate.)<<BR>
<BR>
I've always ruled in my games that brawling-4 could mean anything from being<BR>
the Sylea downport Golden Gloves champion to a second-degree black belt in<BR>
tae kwon do or Vilani kick-wrestling. Especially at the level of abstraction<BR>
Traveller entails, there's no reason to take the time to worry about the<BR>
minor advantages different styles might give when confronting each other.<BR>
<BR>
I was just curious as to what styles the Vilani might have<BR>
developed...Vilani animal-kung styles might be *very* interesting!<BR>
<BR>
(me)<BR>
>>Of course, the real Vilani martial art was monopolistic trade, but that's<BR>
another post entirely...<<<BR>
<BR>
(sam)<BR>
>Merchants need to know how to fight too.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think the Vilani were Hivers, but my guess is that they probably<BR>
preferred economic combat to fleet actions. Of course, canon mentions the<BR>
Consolidation wars, so we know that many of their monopolies were enforced<BR>
at blaster point (cutlass point ? :)<BR>
<BR>
Fred "Lancian Tea Party!" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:01:34 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Viliani (was: Jo Combat  (was Marine Cutlass))<BR>
<BR>
IMTU (kinda supported by MT I guess) the Vilani are not more or less into<BR>
economic 'combat' they are just 'into' what ever is the most cost effective.<BR>
If you do not live on a stragitic planet, and they do not want it, and they<BR>
do not like you, you are likely to get nuked into the stone ages (Nukes are<BR>
cheaper then an invasion - same effect), They tend to not take prisoners (a<BR>
bullet is cheaper then a prisoner).. all in all not really healthy people to<BR>
fight.<BR>
<BR>
IMHO the nth Interstellar wars would have been bloody, tooth and nail no<BR>
quarters affairs.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>>I don't think the Vilani were Hivers, but my guess is that they probably<BR>
preferred economic combat to fleet actions. Of course, canon mentions the<BR>
Consolidation wars, so we know that many of their monopolies were enforced<BR>
at blaster point (cutlass point ? :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:02:53 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: IT Geeks<BR>
<BR>
Too Many<BR>
<BR>
Tsyko "Novell Geek, NT Hater but Adopter and general DOS lover" duk<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
Geez, how may people on this list are in IT/MIS?<BR>
<BR>
> Fred "ODBC Connection Error" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
Solaris Sysadmin, network guru, webmaster and general IT geek.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:12:08 -0400<BR>
From: Eric Freitas <ericfrei@gte.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Views from Space<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, you wrote:<BR>
> This is an interesting sight: <BR>
> <BR>
> http://terraserver.microsoft.com/printimage.asp?S=14&T=1&X=93&Y=1493&Z=18&W=1<BR>
<BR>
Are we supposed to see the skull just to the left and below center?<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:17:48 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
That'd definately be the better alternative.  Thanks for bringin' that up<BR>
Tod!<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 10:45 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> on 6/24/00 10:22 AM, Jesse DeGraff at jdegraff@pacbell.net wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Shouldn't be a problem from what I understand.  You'd just have stripper<BR>
> > clips with partial loads, so if you shot it dry and were<BR>
> fumbling to get it<BR>
> > reloaded, that clip wouldn't be the prime choice :)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Jesse<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> Experienced German troops in WWI and WWII always kept a bunch of loose<BR>
> rounds handy for topping off a half empty rifle.<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
> --<BR>
> "Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
> killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
> --<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:40:51 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2649<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> on 6/23/00 10:59 AM, Russell Bornschlegel at kaleja@estarcion.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Since Tod plugged "On Killing" a couple of times in my last two digests,<BR>
> > I just thought I'd anti-plug: many people, including myself, believe that<BR>
> > Col. Grossman has a political agenda which might interfere with what<BR>
> > statistics he chooses to present, and how he presents them, and the<BR>
> > conclusions he draws from them.<BR>
> > [snip]<BR>
><BR>
> Are you referring to his comments about the use of operant conditioning by<BR>
> the media and how it may be effecting our generation?  Certainly, it may be<BR>
> true that Grossman has a political agenda. <BR>
<BR>
Full disclosure time: I work in the computer game development industry, so<BR>
Grossman has more or less defined himself as my Mortal Enemy.<BR>
<BR>
In short, my problem with him is that he's taken tragedies like Columbine <BR>
and used them to make himself well-known as the "world's foremost expert <BR>
on Killology" - yes, of course he's the expert, since he invented that <BR>
"field of study" singlehandedly. <BR>
<BR>
> However, the studies I have<BR>
> noted from his book are not his own, and have appeared in a variety of other<BR>
> works.  No single source should ever be considered without looking at other<BR>
> material. I would direct you to the works of Keagan, SLA Marshall's "Men<BR>
> against fire", some of the works of Dunnigan and a host of other sources.<BR>
> Even some SIPRI publications are illuminating. I can provide a bibliography<BR>
> if you require one.<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans pointed out both that Grossman forced his own interpretation<BR>
on Marshall's data, and that Marshall's data is not uncontroversial itself. <BR>
Good science is hard to do even when politics isn't involved, and I don't <BR>
see Grossman as being interested in doing good science. The impression I get<BR>
from him, and this is my subjective opinion, is that he's more interested in<BR>
selling books than in truly studying the phenomena in question.<BR>
 <BR>
> At least Grossman cites his sources, rather than referring to "well know<BR>
> truism" as is often the case. Have you read "On Killing"?, and what<BR>
> specifically do you object to?<BR>
<BR>
Again with the full disclosure: I have not read "On Killing", though I <BR>
probably should if I'm going to get all political about it. :) Lord <BR>
knows I hate it when other people do that.<BR>
<BR>
My biggest problem is that he's trying to make the media responsible for <BR>
things like Columbine, rather than put responsibility on the individuals<BR>
or on the parents, either of which makes much more sense to me. <BR>
<BR>
Having played violent computer games for 21 years, including Wolfenstein<BR>
Original and 3D, Doom I-II, Quake I-III, Halflife, Blood, Carmageddon, and <BR>
countless others, I would be no better at going on a shooting spree today <BR>
than I would have at the age of 9. I don't know where the slide release or<BR>
the safety is on most handguns. I don't know any firing stances. I don't <BR>
know what recoil feels like. But I'll tell ya, the next time I happen to <BR>
be holding a plasma gun while mutant cyborg demon zombies are charging at<BR>
me, I'll know what to do...<BR>
<BR>
Some people in the game industry have pointed out that the Doom and Quake <BR>
series have been sold to over 2 million people, almost all of whom have <BR>
failed to go out on shooting sprees, which makes them, clearly, very <BR>
poor murder trainers. In my own case, the last time I hit someone in anger<BR>
was 21 years ago - the year I got my first computer. <BR>
<BR>
Several years back, the whole game industry very quietly and responsibly <BR>
started putting rating markings on their games - very similar to movie <BR>
ratings - in response to people complaining about violent (and, occasionally, <BR>
sexual) content. We did it because it was the proper thing to do. Today, <BR>
things are very much the same, but the complaints are starting up again. <BR>
Everybody wants a scapegoat for Columbine. I don't want to be it. I wasn't<BR>
even there.<BR>
<BR>
- - Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:47:07 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Vinge Storyu(was Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Actually, in Vinge's short story "The Blabber" the Tines are <BR>
> >mentioned as using multiple small fighters, with one body per <BR>
> >fighter.  Instead of using sonics, the fighters communicated using<BR>
> >radio communications like the Tines developed in AFUtD.  <BR>
> <BR>
> Never read this one, just AFUtD - where can I find a copy?<BR>
<BR>
I found it in _The Good Stuff_ a collection edited by Gardner Dozois <BR>
and put out by the Science Fiction Book Club.  The info in the back <BR>
says the story was first published in a collection titled New <BR>
Destinies (Winter 1988, Baen Books).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 16:16:21 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:34:06 -0400 (EDT), shadow@krypton.rain.com<BR>
(Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[Quoting me]<BR>
<BR>
>> The taste for human flesh isn't a problem in and of itself - the<BR>
>> problem comes if the acquisition method is not entirely voluntary<BR>
>> on the part of the acquired...<BR>
<BR>
>Slavery, and raising children to be eaten ought to qualify...<BR>
<BR>
What kind of slavery?  If it matches the legal definition of<BR>
chattel slavery, it's a no-no in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
>Though given the bio-tech they've developed/retained, it may be<BR>
>arguable that these are no longer strictly human...<BR>
<BR>
Don't go there - it's a major can of worms...<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, carniculture (see, e.g., Piper's _Four_Day_Planet_) of long<BR>
pork might satisfy the taste, without running into the ethical<BR>
problems that raising children for food might.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:08:27 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Details of Stuff at FLGS inc SOpM, WBH, HT, Knightfall<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
This started as me going to post details of some rare-ish Traveller <BR>
stuff to the TML that I spotted at my FLGS, but it grew into a <BR>
complete list of their Traveller and 2300 AD stuff. If you're <BR>
interested, their details are at the end of this email. Conditions <BR>
are meant as a guide, but all the books looked usable. Any errors are <BR>
mine.<BR>
<BR>
MegaTraveller:<BR>
*GDW Knightfall  (light use) - 15<BR>
*GDW Hard Times (light use) - 20<BR>
GDW Boxed set (inc all A2 Spinward Marches Map and 1990 errata) <BR>
(Lightly used) 20<BR>
GDW Referee's manual - (Slight cover mark) - 5<BR>
GDW Referee's manual - (near mint) - 6<BR>
GDW Player's manual - (very slight scuff mark) - 6<BR>
GDW Arrival Vengeance (near mint) -6<BR>
GDW Diaspora Sector (near mint) - 6<BR>
GDW Assignment Vigilante (near mint) - 6<BR>
GDW Assignment Vigilante (spine stressed) - 4<BR>
<BR>
*DGP World Builder's Handbook - 20<BR>
*DGP Starship Operator's Manual - 20<BR>
DGP Referee's Kit & Screen - 10<BR>
DGP 101 Vehicles (light use) - 12<BR>
<BR>
Seeker 25mm Empress Marava Deckplans (near mint) - 8<BR>
Seeker 25mm Lab Ship Deckplans - 8<BR>
<BR>
Classic Traveller<BR>
Book 0 - Introduction to Traveller (spine stress) - 2<BR>
Book 4 - Mercenary (spine stress, damaged back) - 3<BR>
Book 4 - Mercenary (spine stress, heavy damage) - 2<BR>
Book 4 - Mercenary (spine stress) - 4<BR>
Book 4 - Mercenary (Very Heavy Damage) - 1<BR>
Book 5 - High Guard 2 - (spine stress) 3<BR>
*Book 6 - Scouts - (spine stress, damaged cover) -7<BR>
*Book 7 - Merchant Princes (slight spine stress) - 10<BR>
*Book 8 - Robots (slight damage) - 12<BR>
<BR>
Supplement 1 - 1001 Characters - 4<BR>
Supplement 2 - Animal Encounters - 3<BR>
Supplement 3 - Spinward Marches (slight spine stress) - 6<BR>
Supplement 4 - Citizens of the Imperium - (heavy spine stress) - 3<BR>
Supplement 4 - Citizens of the Imperium - (slight spine stress) - 4<BR>
Supplement 6 - 76 Patrons - (heavy spine stress) - 4<BR>
Supplement 6 - 76 Patrons - (light spine stress) - 5<BR>
*Supplement 7 - Traders and Gunboats (light spine stress) - 8<BR>
Supplement 8  - Library Data (A-M) - 7<BR>
Supplement 9 - Fighting Ships (used) - 6<BR>
Supplement 9 - Fighting Ships (medium use) - 6<BR>
Supplement 11 - Library Data (N-Z) - 8<BR>
<BR>
Adventure 1 - The Kinunir (spine stress) - 7<BR>
Adventure 2 - Research Station Gamma (spine stress, used) - 7<BR>
Adventure 3 - Twilight's Peak - 6<BR>
Adventure 4 - Leviathan - 6<BR>
Adventure 5 - Trillion Credit Squadron (spine stressed) - 5<BR>
Adventure 6 - Expedition to Zhodane (spine stressed) - 5<BR>
Adventure 6 - Expedition to Zhodane - 7<BR>
Adventure 6 - Expedition to Zhodane - 6<BR>
Adventure 7 - Broadsword (spine stressed) - 6<BR>
Adventure 8 - Prison Planet (light spine stress) - 8<BR>
Adventure 9 - Nomads of the World Ocean (light spine stress) - 8<BR>
Adventure 10 - Safari Ship (medium spine stress & coffee mark on cover)<BR>
<BR>
Double Adv 3 - Argon Gambit/Death Station 4<BR>
Double Adv 4 - Marooned/Marooned Alone 4<BR>
Double Adv 5 - Chamax Plague / Horde 4<BR>
Double Adv 6 - Night/Divine Intervention 4<BR>
<BR>
M1 Tarsus Box set (handouts are photocopies) - 15<BR>
Starter Traveller Box set 8 to 10 (based on condition)<BR>
<BR>
Gamelords - Ascent to Anekthor - 10<BR>
Gamelords - Lee's Guide - Vol 1 - 10<BR>
<BR>
Paranoia Press - Beyond (sector) -5<BR>
Paranoia Press - SORAG - 8<BR>
Paranoia Press - Vanguard Reaches (sector) - 5<BR>
Paranoia Press - Scouts and Assassins - 8<BR>
<BR>
Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society:<BR>
<BR>
Best of Vol 1 (spine damage and stress) - 8<BR>
Best of Vol 2 (used) - 5<BR>
Best of Vol 3 (light spine stress, rusty staples) - 8<BR>
Best of Vol 4 (light spine stress, rusty staples) - 8<BR>
<BR>
JTAS7 - 8<BR>
JTAS11 - Striker - 6<BR>
JTAS12 - Merchants (NO SPECIAL SUPPLEMENT PULLOUT) - 5<BR>
JTAS13 - Hivers - 6<BR>
JTAS15 - Azum (Solomani HiPop World) - 6<BR>
JTAS16 - SuSAG - 6<BR>
JTAS17 - Atmospheres (INCLUDES SPECIAL SUPPLEMENT 2) - 7<BR>
JTAS18 - Travelling without Jumping - 6<BR>
JTAS19 - Skyport Authority - 6<BR>
JTAS21 - Vargr (INCLUDES SPECIAL SUPPLEMENT 3 - MISSILES) - 8<BR>
JTAS23 - Zhodani Philosophies - 6<BR>
JTAS24 - Religion in the 2000 Worlds - 6<BR>
<BR>
Traveller 4th Edition:<BR>
*Milieu 0 Campaign Hardback - 19.99<BR>
Anomalies - 14.99<BR>
*Psionic Institutes - 14.99<BR>
Alien Archive - 14.99<BR>
First Survey - 7.50<BR>
Milieu 0 Softback - 7.50<BR>
T4 Rules Softback - 8.50<BR>
<BR>
Traveller:The New Era:<BR>
TNE Rulebook - 15<BR>
Star Vikings - 7.99<BR>
<BR>
2300AD (not Traveller but SF):<BR>
Ground Vehicle Guide 8<BR>
Energy Curve 8<BR>
<BR>
BITS - All books available.<BR>
GURPS Traveller - All books available.<BR>
FarFuture Enterprises Reprints - Classic Books 0-8 in stock - 18.99<BR>
<BR>
Postage and Packing - free in the UK and at cost to all other locations<BR>
<BR>
Contact Details:<BR>
Dave Frost<BR>
Best Books & Games<BR>
6-10 Slater Street<BR>
Liverpool<BR>
L14BT<BR>
UK<BR>
<BR>
Telephone/Fax +44 151 709 1001<BR>
Email (note this may be unreliable as they have only just got the <BR>
system set up)<BR>
cardvark@hotmail.com *prefered*<BR>
david_frost@hotmail.com<BR>
davfre@madasafish.com<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
PS I'm not associated with this company beyond them being my FLGS and <BR>
I thought you may want to know this stuff as some is rare (especially <BR>
MT).<BR>
- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------<BR>
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion<BR>
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.<BR>
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -<BR>
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's<BR>
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2651<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, June 24 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2652<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Running out of Ammo<BR>
Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
re: Viliani (was: Jo Combat  (was Marine Cutlass))<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
Re: Viliani (was: Jo Combat  (was Marine Cutlass))<BR>
Re: Vilani<BR>
Tines for GURPS<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
RE: Viliani (was: Jo Combat  (was Marine Cutlass))<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: Running out of Ammo<BR>
Re: shipboard combat<BR>
Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:14:54 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fractional c combat<BR>
<BR>
At 6:06 -0400 24/6/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
>And Marc has also stated that a ship pops out of jump when it runs into<BR>
>the 100 diameter limit of *anything*.<BR>
><BR>
>The problem with *both* of these is that since objects *do* move, And<BR>
>move by a lot more than the diameter of the 100 diameter "sphere", you<BR>
>can have the ship pop out when it crosses that line, or you can have it<BR>
>pop out after a week +/-. But you can't have it do *both*. Because if<BR>
>it takes a week to get to the intervening body, then the body *won't*<BR>
>be in the way. But if it takes a week to get to the "destination", it<BR>
>*will* pass thru the 100 diameter limit of the intervening body.<BR>
><BR>
>So, the rules about jump are busted anyway.<BR>
<BR>
Unless you assume that the +/- 10 % represents the variation on a <BR>
standard jump period from the entry point you use, and that the <BR>
jumpspace 100D limit isn't directly related to realspace 100D limit<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:18:35 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
At 12:34 -0400 24/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>Actually, while most ballistic vest will stop conventional pistol bullets,<BR>
>they are no match for most rifle rounds (unless ceramic or metal plates are<BR>
>used).  However, even in this case they can redude the damage dome by rifle<BR>
>rounds.  See the  Korean War era report ALCLAD on the effects of body armor<BR>
>on on combat survivability.<BR>
<BR>
URL perchance?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:22:36 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Running out of Ammo<BR>
<BR>
At 12:34 -0400 24/6/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
> >And taken to extremes in 'The Matrix'.<BR>
>When I saw that sequence start, I started giggling.  Kirsten elbowed me and<BR>
>asked what was so funny.  I told her that finally, somebody had done a<BR>
>movie that looked like a RPG.  The characters had more guns than sense.<BR>
<BR>
Yup, but somehow that's still one of the best sequences in the film. <BR>
It does remind me of the few times I've played Feng Shui. It doesn't <BR>
remind me of ACQ - hmm, must think about the grenade juggling rules <BR>
soon.<BR>
<BR>
You could argue that "The Matrix" is as much of a Gamer's Movie as <BR>
"Alien: Resurrection".<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 16:23:15 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
>Slavery, and raising children to be eaten ought to qualify...<<BR>
<BR>
*shudder*<BR>
<BR>
The Men in the Jungle by Norman Spinrad.<BR>
<BR>
(I accept no responsibility if you are able to find a copy and read it.)<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:54:38 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
<BR>
At 16:24 -0400 24/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>Geez, how may people on this list are in IT/MIS?<BR>
<BR>
Not me.<BR>
<BR>
Professional Project/Mechanical Engineer, MacOS advocate ;-), NT4 <BR>
Slave-at-work, Dabbler in HTML for BITS, Wannabee Writer.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:51:53 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Viliani (was: Jo Combat  (was Marine Cutlass))<BR>
<BR>
At 16:24 -0400 24/6/00, "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com> wrote:<BR>
>IMHO the nth Interstellar wars would have been bloody, tooth and nail no<BR>
>quarters affairs.<BR>
<BR>
They are - I'm in the first turn of an Imperium campaign with Rob <BR>
Prior playing the Vilani and they are brutal.... My colony on Agidda <BR>
is about to be destroyed... and most of my heavy fleet elements have <BR>
gone defending it <sigh><BR>
<BR>
<Need.... Missile..... Boats...><BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:46:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
In mail, kraehe@copyleft.de writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Moin Leonard Erickson,<BR>
><BR>
>> You've missed the point. To get the same *energy* into a pulse that has<BR>
>> a shorter *duration*  requires a *higher* power input. It doesn't<BR>
>> require it for as *long*, but it still requires it.<BR>
><BR>
>   I asumed using a HPG between the power plant and the laser.<BR>
<BR>
That's engineering. I'm talking about the *physics of the situation.<BR>
Maybe it'd be easier to grasp if you think about the pulse reaching the<BR>
target. <BR>
<BR>
For a given amount of energy in the pulse, a shorter pulse delivers<BR>
*more* power at the target. And though the rules don't model it well,<BR>
the power delivered to the target can be as important as the total<BR>
energy.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 13:08:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 0:52 -0400 23/6/00,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
>>Kevlar is hard to *break*. High tensile strength. That's how it stops<BR>
>>bullets, as they have to expend a lot of energy breaking or displacing<BR>
>>fibers.<BR>
>><BR>
>>But kevlar is *easy* to cut. About the same as nylon...<BR>
><BR>
> Would a sabot round puncture it?<BR>
<BR>
Let me put it to you this way. Most *ordinary* rifle bullets will punch<BR>
through a kevlar vest. That's why the NRA opposed that so-called<BR>
"anti-cop-killer bullet" bill so strongly. It would have banned all<BR>
ammo which could pentrate a standard vest, which includes *all* rifle<BR>
ammo heavier than a .22! In short, it would have banned *hunting*, by<BR>
making the ammo illegal. <BR>
<BR>
BTW, the folks pushing the bill *might* have initially been ignorant of<BR>
this. But they were certainly informed of this situation soon enough to<BR>
change it. They didn't. Therefore, that proves they weren't *really*<BR>
interested in what they said they were.<BR>
<BR>
But that's getting off topic.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, the vests are only intended to stop your average pistol<BR>
round. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 13:30:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:15:26 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard <BR>
> Erickson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>>> inside a werehouse<BR>
>>>         I am so sorry, but I can't resist:  did you have the fight<BR>
>>>         in a guy that turns into a house on a full moon?<BR>
>>>         :)<BR>
>><BR>
>>I wanna know what happens when the moon *sets*, and people are still<BR>
>>inside fighting. :-)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> SNIT'S REVENGE!<BR>
><BR>
> (People on this list have actually been gaming long enough to actually get <BR>
> this joke.  I hope.)<BR>
<BR>
Hell, I've got the *game* (buried somewhere, but I do have it).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 13:32:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:21:31 -0400 (EDT), sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>> Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
><BR>
>>>>I'd hate to face a Tine running a set of fighters, especially if they<BR>
>>>>use telepathy.<BR>
>  <BR>
>>> A Tine wouldn't be running a _set_ of fighters; it would run a<BR>
>>> single fighter.  First, the intrapack communication was severely<BR>
>>> range-limited; second, the dexterity of a single member was<BR>
>>> severely limited - to do simple things often took two or more<BR>
>>> members cooperating, and some - like making snowballs, for<BR>
>>> instance, were totally beyond them.  A Tine of high intelligence<BR>
>>> _might_ be able to handle all of the Bridge stations of a small<BR>
>>> starship, but even that wouldn't be clear; they might only be<BR>
>>> able to manage layouts that were more efficient from a<BR>
>>> space-utilization view, but which wouldn't be practical for a<BR>
>>> human (or any single-body intelligence).<BR>
><BR>
>>Actually, in Vinge's short story "The Blabber" the Tines are <BR>
>>mentioned as using multiple small fighters, with one body per <BR>
>>fighter.  Instead of using sonics, the fighters communicated using <BR>
>>radio communications like the Tines developed in AFUtD.  <BR>
><BR>
> Never read this one, just AFUtD - where can I find a copy?<BR>
><BR>
>>Give the speed difference of radio vs sound a group of Tines would <BR>
>>still be a functional entity even at ranges of up to several thousand <BR>
>>kilometers.  All you need to is design the ships so that they can be <BR>
>>piloted with a single Tine's limited manual dexterity.  Sonic controls <BR>
>>are one idea, as is a  harness which reacts to full-body <BR>
>>movements.  Such control systems would likely be Traveller TL <BR>
>>10+, but a squad of 5 Tine fighters all controlled by a single mind <BR>
>>would be *very* tough to beat.  The best way would be to jam the <BR>
>>signals between ships.  Once meson communicators are <BR>
>>developed even that tactic isn't possible.  Of course, if you hit even <BR>
>>one ship the rest become dumber, so squads of multiple fighters <BR>
>>are risky for lengthy combats.<BR>
><BR>
> Very true.  It would make for interesting tactics, though.  The<BR>
> question becomes "how expendable - and _partially_ expendable -<BR>
> are your personnel?".<BR>
<BR>
Just consider the situation if <???> (the guy who built Tines to order)<BR>
had won. The "components" of a fighter squad might be very expendable,<BR>
because they'd be trained to regroup with others to replace losses.<BR>
<BR>
Consider the fun when he (or his successors) learned about cloning...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 13:49:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Viliani (was: Jo Combat  (was Marine Cutlass))<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> IMTU (kinda supported by MT I guess) the Vilani are not more or less into<BR>
> economic 'combat' they are just 'into' what ever is the most cost effective.<BR>
> If you do not live on a stragitic planet, and they do not want it, and they<BR>
> do not like you, you are likely to get nuked into the stone ages (Nukes are<BR>
> cheaper then an invasion - same effect), They tend to not take prisoners (a<BR>
> bullet is cheaper then a prisoner).. all in all not really healthy people to<BR>
> fight.<BR>
<BR>
Rocks are cheaper than nukes. And from orbit, not much harder to deliver.<BR>
<BR>
Also, they don't leave that nasty, icky radioactive fallout all over<BR>
the place. Much tidier if you want to allow for possibly taking<BR>
possesion afterwards.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 23:21:32 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani<BR>
<BR>
"Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>IMTU (kinda supported by MT I guess) the Vilani are not more or less into<BR>
>economic 'combat' they are just 'into' what ever is the most cost effective.<BR>
>If you do not live on a stragitic planet, and they do not want it, and they<BR>
>do not like you, you are likely to get nuked into the stone ages (Nukes are<BR>
>cheaper then an invasion - same effect), They tend to not take prisoners (a<BR>
>bullet is cheaper then a prisoner).. all in all not really healthy people to<BR>
>fight.<BR>
 <BR>
I've always wondered just how much this described Vilani of the 3rd Imperium<BR>
and how much it is restricted to describing Vilani of the 1st Imperium. If<BR>
their opponents can't get at the Vilani's loved ones, sure, but I suspect<BR>
that once you're up against enemies with starfaring capability, it is false<BR>
economy to nuke their planets and kill prisoners.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        'There was a man,'  remarked Captain Eliot, 'who was sentenced<BR>
    to death for stealing a horse from a common. He said to the judge,<BR>
    that  he  thought it hard to be hanged for stealing a horse from a<BR>
    common  and  the  judge  answered,  "You  are not to be hanged for<BR>
    stealing  a  horse  from  a common,  but that others may not steal<BR>
    horses from commons." '<BR>
        'And do you find,' asked Stephen, 'that in fact horses are not<BR>
    daily stolen from commons? You do not!'<BR>
<BR>
                        --- "The Mauritius Command" by Patrick O'Brian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:29:27 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Tines for GURPS<BR>
<BR>
GURPS Tines:<BR>
<BR>
ST 10, DX 10, IQ 10, HT 10<BR>
(stats for entire entity, not per individual body)<BR>
<BR>
Mindshare:<BR>
Global Consciousness: 60 points<BR>
Range: 10 meters, call this: -5<BR>
Number of Drones: up to 6: -10<BR>
Defense Drones: -10<BR>
(Global Mindshare assumes sentient<BR>
drones, so defense drones should be <BR>
cheaper)<BR>
- -------------<BR>
35 points<BR>
<BR>
- -30% because the communication can be detected and blocked or <BR>
jammed.<BR>
<BR>
Add in an additional -20% because nearby individuals will interfere with <BR>
each others communication<BR>
<BR>
18 points  <BR>
<BR>
Other Advantages and Disadvantages:<BR>
Mimicry:  15 points<BR>
Subsonic Hearing 5 points<BR>
Ultrasonic Hearing 10 points<BR>
Semi-upright posture -5 points<BR>
One Fine Manipulator -10 points<BR>
(one Tines paws could perhaps at best<BR>
equal one human hand)<BR>
Sharp teeth 5 points<BR>
Enhanced move 10 points<BR>
<BR>
For a total of 38 points<BR>
<BR>
Clearly IQ would be generated for the entire individual.  Im less certain <BR>
on how to determine ST, DX, & HT.  Buying each one separately would <BR>
make Tines costs *much* more than other characters.  Perhaps you <BR>
should average the cost of such stats.  In a 4, having one with ST 13, one <BR>
with ST 9, One with ST 10, and one with ST 12 would give a total ST of <BR>
11 for the individual.  You would need to keep track of the stats of<BR>
each individual in combat, but not for most other occasions.<BR>
<BR>
Comments?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
     <BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 16:26:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Leonard is correct:<BR>
<BR>
I might add that Second chance and Point Blank have at times offered a<BR>
correctional officer's protective vest. This vest is designed specifically<BR>
to deal with edged weapons. It uses metal mesh and fiberglass plates to<BR>
deflect "stabbing" weapons. It is marginally effective vs. pistol rounds. I<BR>
imagine it could be lacerated quite easily with something like a cutlass or<BR>
a sabre, but "running through" your opponent with the point would be<BR>
somewhat difficult.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 2:08 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > At 0:52 -0400 23/6/00,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
wrote:<BR>
> >>Kevlar is hard to *break*. High tensile strength. That's how it stops<BR>
> >>bullets, as they have to expend a lot of energy breaking or displacing<BR>
> >>fibers.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>But kevlar is *easy* to cut. About the same as nylon...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Would a sabot round puncture it?<BR>
><BR>
> Let me put it to you this way. Most *ordinary* rifle bullets will punch<BR>
> through a kevlar vest. That's why the NRA opposed that so-called<BR>
> "anti-cop-killer bullet" bill so strongly. It would have banned all<BR>
> ammo which could pentrate a standard vest, which includes *all* rifle<BR>
> ammo heavier than a .22! In short, it would have banned *hunting*, by<BR>
> making the ammo illegal.<BR>
><BR>
> BTW, the folks pushing the bill *might* have initially been ignorant of<BR>
> this. But they were certainly informed of this situation soon enough to<BR>
> change it. They didn't. Therefore, that proves they weren't *really*<BR>
> interested in what they said they were.<BR>
><BR>
> But that's getting off topic.<BR>
><BR>
> In any case, the vests are only intended to stop your average pistol<BR>
> round.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:33:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Viliani (was: Jo Combat  (was Marine Cutlass))<BR>
<BR>
Ok - Duks Dictonary:<BR>
<BR>
Nuke - To drop ordinace upon your nme's head until they are flattened.<BR>
<BR>
;)<BR>
<BR>
I agree that rocks are cheaper. Also easier to store and deliver, just shove<BR>
it out the cargo bay with a small retro on it.<BR>
<BR>
Is there any table that people have come up with for orbital deadfall<BR>
telephone poles? (ie, what their megaton range would be under diffrent<BR>
gravities, atmospheres etc?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
Erickson<BR>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 2:50 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Viliani (was: Jo Combat (was Marine Cutlass))<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> IMTU (kinda supported by MT I guess) the Vilani are not more or less into<BR>
> economic 'combat' they are just 'into' what ever is the most cost<BR>
effective.<BR>
> If you do not live on a stragitic planet, and they do not want it, and<BR>
they<BR>
> do not like you, you are likely to get nuked into the stone ages (Nukes<BR>
are<BR>
> cheaper then an invasion - same effect), They tend to not take prisoners<BR>
(a<BR>
> bullet is cheaper then a prisoner).. all in all not really healthy people<BR>
to<BR>
> fight.<BR>
<BR>
Rocks are cheaper than nukes. And from orbit, not much harder to deliver.<BR>
<BR>
Also, they don't leave that nasty, icky radioactive fallout all over<BR>
the place. Much tidier if you want to allow for possibly taking<BR>
possesion afterwards.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 16:46:51 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
The single largest determinor for projectiles penetration ability is<BR>
velocity. Mass and bullet diameter (Sectional Density = Diameter/Mass if you<BR>
use the ballistic term.) each play a part, too, but relative to the targets<BR>
we are talking about, velocity is all-important. Most soft armor used today<BR>
by police officers can stop the vaunted .44 Magnum and .50 A/E rounds with<BR>
ease. Don't try it with some higher velocity .357 (125 grain Remington and<BR>
Federal loadings will penetrate NIJ Level IIIA soft armor) and Carbine<BR>
loaded 9mm rounds though...<BR>
<BR>
The line is somewhat hazy, but *Most* rounds that travel above 1400 FPS at<BR>
the time of impact will penetrate NIJ Level IIIA armor regardless of<BR>
construction or bullet diameter (Assuming pistol and rifle rounds less than<BR>
15mm in diameter).<BR>
<BR>
Rifle rounds moving above 2000 FPS will not be slowed significantly by most<BR>
soft armor: your armor will then only serve to soak up your vital fluids as<BR>
they leak out...<BR>
<BR>
Hypervelocity rounds (4000 FPS+) have excellent penetration; like being able<BR>
to penetrate 1/2" to 3/4" steel plate using conventional copper jacketed<BR>
lead bullets): terminal performance is often quite spectacular as well.<BR>
<BR>
As far as Sabotted rounds go, again it boils down to velocity at impact. It<BR>
has been noted that flechette bullets terminal effects suffer because they<BR>
are TOO stable on impact. I've read articles where people have attained<BR>
velocities of over 5000 FPS with a .224" bullet in a .308" Sabot loaded into<BR>
the .300<BR>
Winchester Magnum cartridge with decent accuracy. Ouch!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 2:08 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > At 0:52 -0400 23/6/00,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
wrote:<BR>
> >>Kevlar is hard to *break*. High tensile strength. That's how it stops<BR>
> >>bullets, as they have to expend a lot of energy breaking or displacing<BR>
> >>fibers.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>But kevlar is *easy* to cut. About the same as nylon...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Would a sabot round puncture it?<BR>
><BR>
> Let me put it to you this way. Most *ordinary* rifle bullets will punch<BR>
> through a kevlar vest. That's why the NRA opposed that so-called<BR>
> "anti-cop-killer bullet" bill so strongly. It would have banned all<BR>
> ammo which could pentrate a standard vest, which includes *all* rifle<BR>
> ammo heavier than a .22! In short, it would have banned *hunting*, by<BR>
> making the ammo illegal.<BR>
><BR>
> BTW, the folks pushing the bill *might* have initially been ignorant of<BR>
> this. But they were certainly informed of this situation soon enough to<BR>
> change it. They didn't. Therefore, that proves they weren't *really*<BR>
> interested in what they said they were.<BR>
><BR>
> But that's getting off topic.<BR>
><BR>
> In any case, the vests are only intended to stop your average pistol<BR>
> round.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:24:40<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Running out of Ammo<BR>
<BR>
At 09:22 PM 6/24/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Yup, but somehow that's still one of the best sequences in the film. <BR>
>It does remind me of the few times I've played Feng Shui. It doesn't <BR>
>remind me of ACQ - hmm, must think about the grenade juggling rules <BR>
>soon.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, it works, if you remember what Morpheus told Neo about the rules of the<BR>
Matrix.  Since Neo and Trinity know how to bend the rules, they each have<BR>
APP of around 50!  By the end of the film, Neo probably has over 100 AP<BR>
avalible just to block agent Smith's blows.<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"<BR>
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:29:37 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
I remember that game!!!  Used to have a big poster of it too.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 5:30 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:15:26 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard<BR>
> > Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>>> inside a werehouse<BR>
> >>>         I am so sorry, but I can't resist:  did you have the fight<BR>
> >>>         in a guy that turns into a house on a full moon?<BR>
> >>>         :)<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>I wanna know what happens when the moon *sets*, and people are still<BR>
> >>inside fighting. :-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > SNIT'S REVENGE!<BR>
> ><BR>
> > (People on this list have actually been gaming long enough to actually<BR>
get<BR>
> > this joke.  I hope.)<BR>
><BR>
> Hell, I've got the *game* (buried somewhere, but I do have it).<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:30:48 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
I have a copy and have read it many times..  Great book.  Does that make me<BR>
warped?  :)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 4:23 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >Slavery, and raising children to be eaten ought to qualify...<<BR>
><BR>
> *shudder*<BR>
><BR>
> The Men in the Jungle by Norman Spinrad.<BR>
><BR>
> (I accept no responsibility if you are able to find a copy and read it.)<BR>
><BR>
> Sam<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2652<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2653</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, June 24 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2653<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
re : Jamming Meson Comms<BR>
Re: Vilani<BR>
Re: re : Jamming Meson Comms<BR>
RE: Marine Cutlass<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: Partial reloads<BR>
Re: IT Geeks<BR>
RE: Jo Combat (was Marine Cutlass)<BR>
RE: Vilani<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2649<BR>
Re: Tines for GURPS<BR>
RE: Running out of Ammo<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:06:39 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
on 6/24/00 1:18 PM, SD Mooney at dom@cybergoths.u-net.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:34 -0400 24/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>> Actually, while most ballistic vest will stop conventional pistol bullets,<BR>
>> they are no match for most rifle rounds (unless ceramic or metal plates are<BR>
>> used).  However, even in this case they can redude the damage dome by rifle<BR>
>> rounds.  See the  Korean War era report ALCLAD on the effects of body armor<BR>
>> on on combat survivability.<BR>
> <BR>
> URL perchance?<BR>
> <BR>
> Dom<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Don't we all wish.  The battered partial copy I had of ALCLAD was on loan<BR>
from a friend.  I need to file a FOIA to get a full copy, since I don't<BR>
think it's ever been published in the non-military community.  However, It<BR>
get routinely quoted.  Se many works by Ezell (e.g. "The Black Rifle" and<BR>
with Steven is "SPIW: The deadliest weapon that never was").  There is also<BR>
lengthy quotes from ALCLAD in the Johns Hopkins report "Operational<BR>
requirements of infantry hand weapons".<BR>
<BR>
I hope to be posting a lot of this material on my Firearms Technology site<BR>
(http://www.guntech.com).<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:15:42 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: re : Jamming Meson Comms<BR>
<BR>
> From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
> Subject: Jamming Meson Comms (was: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller)<BR>
> Is there any way to jam meson comms?<BR>
><BR>
> I would think that a continual (but relatively low-power) stream of<BR>
> decaying mesons on the receiving ship might at least degrade reception.<BR>
><BR>
> Any thoughts on this?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Ditzie thinks that a continual, relatively high-power stream of decaying<BR>
mesons (or other fast-moving fundamental particles) would do a better job.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:31:18 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani<BR>
<BR>
on 6/24/00 2:21 PM, Hans Rancke-Madsen at rancke@diku.dk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com> writes:<BR>
> <BR>
>> IMTU (kinda supported by MT I guess) the Vilani are not more or less into<BR>
>> economic 'combat' they are just 'into' what ever is the most cost effective.<BR>
>> If you do not live on a stragitic planet, and they do not want it, and they<BR>
>> do not like you, you are likely to get nuked into the stone ages (Nukes are<BR>
>> cheaper then an invasion - same effect), They tend to not take prisoners (a<BR>
>> bullet is cheaper then a prisoner).. all in all not really healthy people to<BR>
>> fight.<BR>
> <BR>
> I've always wondered just how much this described Vilani of the 3rd Imperium<BR>
> and how much it is restricted to describing Vilani of the 1st Imperium. If<BR>
> their opponents can't get at the Vilani's loved ones, sure, but I suspect<BR>
> that once you're up against enemies with starfaring capability, it is false<BR>
> economy to nuke their planets and kill prisoners.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Killing prisoners is just plain stupid.  Anybody read about Malmedy?  During<BR>
the battle of the bulge, word went 'round the US forces that the Germans<BR>
were shooting prisoners.  Just about every decided not to surrender.<BR>
<BR>
Shooting prisoners means your opponent has nothing to lose by fighting to<BR>
the last breath. You just replace war with survival.  No wonder the Vilani<BR>
lost to the Terrans.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, the most ferocious fighters have this attitude.  If you surrender, you<BR>
will be well treated, If you resist, you will be treated to the harshest<BR>
possible measures, and you officers will feel the brunt.  Make it inviting<BR>
to surrender and you save yourself a fight, and casualties on your own side<BR>
as well as the enemy's.  Unit that surrender are just as eliminated from<BR>
battle as those that are destroyed.<BR>
<BR>
I touched on this issue in a piece of fiction I wrote years ago. A unit of<BR>
the empire, encircled by the rebels fights to the bitter end.  Eventually<BR>
overwhelmed, they are take, and the rebels execute the survivors.  When word<BR>
get round to the other regiments (and it always does), those troops swear a<BR>
blood oath to never be taken (and everyone of them assumes they'll get the<BR>
same treatment anyway), and on regimental patches, banners and such, the<BR>
units added "Remember Mitiar" (site of the battle).<BR>
<BR>
It's hard to get soldiers to fight for a political goal or a higher standard<BR>
of living.  But anyone can understand:<BR>
<BR>
"These are the animals that killed unarmed soldiers who fought with honor<BR>
and then surrendered, trusting their lives to the honor of their enemy.<BR>
When you go into battle, and find yourself asking why? think of you brother<BR>
soldiers, helpless, unarmed, bound -- slaughtered like hogs, not treated as<BR>
we would treat them".<BR>
<BR>
Given that description of the Vilani, I can only assume that any notions of<BR>
honor that exist in the military of the 3I must be the result of Terran<BR>
influence.  No wonder the Solomani feel superior.  Even animal don't kill<BR>
their rival after they surrender.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:38:40 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: re : Jamming Meson Comms<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
> > Subject: Jamming Meson Comms (was: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller)<BR>
> > Is there any way to jam meson comms?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I would think that a continual (but relatively low-power) stream of<BR>
> > decaying mesons on the receiving ship might at least degrade reception.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Any thoughts on this?<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> Ditzie thinks that a continual, relatively high-power stream of decaying<BR>
> mesons (or other fast-moving fundamental particles) would do a better job.<BR>
<BR>
Of this I have no doubt.  However, since Ditzie's approach works by<BR>
degrading the receiving _ship_, rather than merely degrading meson comm<BR>
_reception_ (the subject of my initial inquiry), her response does not<BR>
directly address the question.<BR>
<BR>
The preferred AuricTech approach to degrading ships is based on NPAWs,<BR>
rather than meson beams, since adding meson shielding seems more<BR>
efficient (in terms of volume requirements and performance degradation<BR>
[even accounting for larger power plant requirements]) than adding armor<BR>
under FF&S2.  Hang the expense, our fighting sophonts deserve the best!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:17:20 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Marine Cutlass<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote :<BR>
> on 6/23/00 8:24 AM, VonRammen at von_rammen@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
> [snip]<BR>
> Geez, how may people on this list are in IT/MIS?<BR>
<BR>
Isn't everyone in the western world in IT now ?<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Last gaming session, one guy was mourning that he had finally succumbed and<BR>
joined the IT industry.<BR>
<BR>
> > Fred "ODBC Connection Error" Ramen<BR>
> Tod<BR>
> Solaris Sysadmin, network guru, webmaster and general IT geek.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
Avionics technician, electronic engineering, appliance repair, network<BR>
wiring & administration, unix/Windows GUI and network programming in C, C++,<BR>
Java, VB, Jade, among other tools, OOAD, framework & architecture, project<BR>
management, now teaching most of the above, and becoming conversant in<BR>
XML/XSL in preparation for teaching that as well.....<BR>
<BR>
Heck, other than knowing how to carry out the fabrication of the silicon,<BR>
I'm just about able to design, build & maintain computer systems from the<BR>
transistors (or valves) on up.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: Will there still be people capable of handling a technology in such<BR>
a vertical way in the 3I ?<BR>
<BR>
Will there still be technologically savvy people in the 3I, who if dropped<BR>
in an Industrial Age society could bootstrap it to star-faring  ?<BR>
<BR>
Or will they all be like the average American today , not knowing where milk<BR>
comes from or how to use a soldering iron ?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 18:17:11 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
on 6/24/00 4:46 PM, Matthew W. Helton at mwhelton@cox-internet.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The single largest determinor for projectiles penetration ability is<BR>
> velocity. Mass and bullet diameter (Sectional Density = Diameter/Mass if you<BR>
> use the ballistic term.) each play a part, too, but relative to the targets<BR>
> we are talking about, velocity is all-important. Most soft armor used today<BR>
> by police officers can stop the vaunted .44 Magnum and .50 A/E rounds with<BR>
> ease. Don't try it with some higher velocity .357 (125 grain Remington and<BR>
> Federal loadings will penetrate NIJ Level IIIA soft armor) and Carbine<BR>
> loaded 9mm rounds though...<BR>
<BR>
Well put, although bullet design can have a tremendous effect on<BR>
penetration.  While doing some research on special purpose ammo, we made up<BR>
some solid copper .45acp rounds that had a 45 degree point.  Fired at<BR>
standard velocity, these rounds easily penetrated a Safariland concealment<BR>
vest.<BR>
<BR>
Further, a Jivaro blowgun with wire darts can easily penetrated a standard<BR>
vest using nothing wore exotic than lung power.<BR>
> <BR>
> The line is somewhat hazy, but *Most* rounds that travel above 1400 FPS at<BR>
> the time of impact will penetrate NIJ Level IIIA armor regardless of<BR>
> construction or bullet diameter (Assuming pistol and rifle rounds less than<BR>
> 15mm in diameter).<BR>
> <BR>
> Rifle rounds moving above 2000 FPS will not be slowed significantly by most<BR>
> soft armor: your armor will then only serve to soak up your vital fluids as<BR>
> they leak out...<BR>
> <BR>
> Hypervelocity rounds (4000 FPS+) have excellent penetration; like being able<BR>
> to penetrate 1/2" to 3/4" steel plate using conventional copper jacketed<BR>
> lead bullets): terminal performance is often quite spectacular as well.<BR>
<BR>
I'd have to question this one.  Having fired a .220 swift loaded VERY hot at<BR>
metal silhouette targets ( 3/16" steel plate ) I never saw a single<BR>
penetration. Sectional density is very significant when it comes to<BR>
penetration.  The is the whole point of using APFSDS ammunition against<BR>
tanks.<BR>
> <BR>
> As far as Sabotted rounds go, again it boils down to velocity at impact. It<BR>
> has been noted that flechette bullets terminal effects suffer because they<BR>
> are TOO stable on impact. I've read articles where people have attained<BR>
>velocities of over 5000 FPS with a .224" bullet in a .308" Sabot loaded into<BR>
>the .300<BR>
>Winchester Magnum cartridge with decent accuracy. Ouch!<BR>
<BR>
I am unaware of this.  The best velocities I've seen are with .20cal and .17<BR>
cal bullets from large cases.  I'm intrigued.  Can you point me to a source.<BR>
I subscribe to and keep copies of just about any US gun publication you'd<BR>
care to name.<BR>
<BR>
Further, US army tests of high velocity flechettes on animals showed that<BR>
they were very lethal due to their tendency to hook and deform.  The problem<BR>
was with shotgun flechettes, which don't have the velocity and tend to just<BR>
drill through the target.<BR>
<BR>
The whole point is to make round stable in air, but not to over-stabilize<BR>
them so that they will upset in tissue.  Because expanding ammunition is not<BR>
used by the military, bullet retardation, and hence energy transfer relies<BR>
on the bullet tumbling one tissue penetration is achieved.<BR>
<BR>
This is exactly why the 5.56x45mm ball round proved to be 11% more lethal<BR>
than the 7.62x51mm ball.  The .223 round is less stable when transiting<BR>
media, and generally begins tumbling within an inch of penetration.  The<BR>
.308 is nice and stable, and generally doesn't start to tumble until after<BR>
about 10 inches, barely within the width of the average human torso.<BR>
Hypervelocity flechettes are even more prone to bend and tumble on<BR>
transiting media, and given the relatively long projectile, create larger<BR>
wound tracks and dump more energy more quickly.<BR>
<BR>
"Due to its long, thin shape, there is a lack of rigidity, and the flechette<BR>
turns into a hook on impact with the target.  It becomes totally unstable<BR>
and imparts its full kinetic energy to the target, producing an<BR>
explosive-type wound" (Hobart, 1973a, p314)<BR>
<BR>
"Flechettes tend to buckle into a hook upon impact with flesh, and since<BR>
this is a very poor ballistic shape, and since flesh is about 800 times<BR>
denser than air, the buckled flechette gyrates and gives up its energy very<BR>
rapidly, and thus earning high marks as an effective projectile" (Archer,<BR>
1976, P.13"<BR>
<BR>
"The attitude of the American public is of real concern to the Army for a<BR>
very practical reason.  By influencing their Congressman, citizens can<BR>
thwart even what the military chief believe are their best ideas. The horror<BR>
with which the public regards chemical and biological warfare is reflected<BR>
in the Army's relatively low budget for research and development in this<BR>
area. The service wanted to avoid a similar fate for SPIW. The reason for<BR>
the Army's anxiety is that the wound from a SPIW arrow is usually big, nasty<BR>
and fatal.  The effect is similar to that of the soft-nosed dum dum bullet,<BR>
which was condemned by most of the major powers during the Hague Peace<BR>
Conference of 1889..[The] tumbling action of the flechettes which is induced<BR>
by their hitting an object, is what accounts for the gravely torn wounds<BR>
they can inflict on human targets." (Beller, 1968,pp.81-82)<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:46:08 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Partial reloads<BR>
<BR>
On 24 Jun 00, at 11:42, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Anybody know if there's a problem with trying to do a partial reload<BR>
> >  using stripper clips?<BR>
<BR>
> Not a problem on a Commission Pattern Mauser (M1888), but I have no <BR>
> expereince with other stripper clip weapons. Can one do a partial reload with<BR>
> (say) an M1 Garand? I'm inclined to think not, but I've never fired one, never<BR>
> loaded one, and only handled one once or twice.<BR>
<BR>
Stripper Clips by definition strip the rounds when you insert them into the <BR>
magazine (Line up the clip with the guides and push down firmly). <BR>
Therefore any weapon which uses stripper clips can be topped up with <BR>
individual rounds at any time. however the M1 Garand does not use <BR>
stripper clips (the clip is retained in the magazine) and can not be topped <BR>
up. Actually it was one of the M1s major failings, that plus the clip went <BR>
flying out of the weapon when empty and struck the ground with an audible <BR>
"Ping" and then "Clunck" which told all and sundry that the weapon was <BR>
empty. Another example is the Mannlicher, where the clip forms part of the <BR>
magazine.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:00:16 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: IT Geeks<BR>
<BR>
on 6/24/00 12:02 PM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Too Many<BR>
> <BR>
> Tsyko "Novell Geek, NT Hater but Adopter and general DOS lover" duk<BR>
> <BR>
"Friends don't let friends do DOS"<BR>
"DOS, all of the complexity of UNIX, none of the power"<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:16:25 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Jo Combat (was Marine Cutlass)<BR>
<BR>
VonRammen wrote  :<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, 25 June 2000 06:37<BR>
> To: Traveller List<BR>
> Subject: Re: Jo Combat (was Marine Cutlass)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I said:<BR>
> >>Trying to drag things back on Topic: somebody familiar with<BR>
> Vilani culture<BR>
> should give some thought to their martial arts. While it's true that most<BR>
> martial arts have a great deal in common with each other (I've seen aikido<BR>
> pins in tae kwon do, and I know most of the throws come from jiu<BR>
> jitsu--human body remains basically the same everywhere, after all), the<BR>
> potential exists for some really weird variations...kick-wrestling? Sumo<BR>
> with axes?<<<BR>
><BR>
> "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com> responds:<BR>
><BR>
> >OK, my one real rant.<BR>
> Martial arts combat, outside of movie martial arts, should be identical to<BR>
> the regular fighting system. There is nothing overwhelmingly<BR>
> superior about a "martial arts" punch over any other sort of punch.<BR>
<BR>
I disagree. Anyone actually _trained_ to punch will be better at it than a<BR>
similar level of skill brawler who has never been taught to punch properly.<BR>
<BR>
Just remember, boxing and wrestling are martial arts too.<BR>
<BR>
Most RPG rules that specifiy a difference between "martial arts" and<BR>
"brawling" do so for this reason. It doesn't mean that a brawler can't punch<BR>
at all, but if he's never been taught to punch properly, his punches won't<BR>
be effective.<BR>
<BR>
I've got experience in this. I ended up in a fight with a guy who had a<BR>
pretty big rep as a street-fighter once, and he managed to hit me four or<BR>
five times in the face, primarily because he attacked faster than I expected<BR>
and I was trying to avoid combat. All I got was a bleeding nose though and a<BR>
couple of bruises, none of those punches had any real effect on my combat<BR>
ability.<BR>
<BR>
I punched him twice, once in the stomach, and once just behind the ear while<BR>
he was leaning forward in reaction to the stomach punch and he went down. He<BR>
wasn't out, and got back up immediately, but he realized that I _could_ have<BR>
finished it while he was down, so he mouthed off a bit more, but basically<BR>
left without any more fighting.<BR>
<BR>
Afterwards I was more annoyed at the blood on my shirt than anything else,<BR>
the bleeding stopped after a few minutes of pressure. I heard later the<BR>
guy's flat-mates took him to an A&E ward later that evening and he was<BR>
treated for concussion.<BR>
<BR>
> Further, what you cite<BR>
> above is 100% true despite the wishes of some instructors. A martial art<BR>
> doesn't include something only at the desire of the particular instructor.<BR>
<BR>
<grin> Actually, most martial arts styles and schools have been started for<BR>
exactly that reason, someone's instructor wouldn't let them do something, so<BR>
they left and started their own style.<BR>
<BR>
> Even boxing technically has kicking by the simple fact that it is<BR>
> disallowed. It wouldn't be forbidden if it wasn't recognized as being able<BR>
> to be done.<BR>
<BR>
Boxing, however, at least as far as I can tell, does not _teach_ you how to<BR>
kick, so it doesn't really "have it" any more. It was outlawed to make the<BR>
_sport_ of boxing more civilised.<BR>
<BR>
If going to a level that distinguishes martial arts from brawling, one<BR>
should probably also distinguish between "sport" styles and "real" styles.<BR>
<BR>
There is a lot of difference between training in silent killing or quick<BR>
take-downs, of the sort that our SAS are taught, and free-style sparring,<BR>
even that which the so-called "full contact" schools engage in.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> I've always ruled in my games that brawling-4 could mean anything<BR>
> from being<BR>
> the Sylea downport Golden Gloves champion to a second-degree black belt in<BR>
> tae kwon do or Vilani kick-wrestling. Especially at the level of<BR>
> abstraction<BR>
> Traveller entails, there's no reason to take the time to worry about the<BR>
> minor advantages different styles might give when confronting each other.<BR>
<BR>
"Brawling" is supposed to imply unscientific, largely untrained combat<BR>
skill.<BR>
I'd say any "Golden Gloves" champion should have the martial arts skill<BR>
instead.<BR>
<BR>
However, I agree that the level of abstraction in Traveller makes such<BR>
distinctions largely meaningless.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:31:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Vilani<BR>
<BR>
I never said that they were overly bright >:)<BR>
<BR>
However, IMHO, IMTU this was a cultural thing for them. When they ran into<BR>
the terrains, they had never thought about taking prisoners (the bullet<BR>
remark was off the cuff. They would just not take them. You are wounded, too<BR>
bad, that is your problem. If you could not fight, you were ignored). If it<BR>
is deeply rooted in the culture, then perhaps it is considered just part of<BR>
war - there was a remark a while ago about the difference between the Dark<BR>
Ages paradigm on death and our current one - this would be a similar case.<BR>
They would literally not know any other way. More then likely it was a big<BR>
shock when the Terrains met them the first time - the look like us, they<BR>
have very similar genomes, but they think totally differently. More<BR>
differently then other cultures on earth - so alien that at first it<BR>
probably was so far out side the box that we had a really tough time dealing<BR>
with them<BR>
<BR>
IMTU that is one of the big reasons for the nth Interstellar Wars starting<BR>
as well as continuing so long. It became a us or them after the first one.<BR>
We were just kind of freaked out by the differences perhaps they nuked or<BR>
rocked a colony in the middle of nowhere. Weapons of Mass Destruction do not<BR>
go over well with terrains :)<BR>
<BR>
And we did not respond well to being 'put in our place'<BR>
<BR>
In re the 3I's military out look:<BR>
As the Solomani took the 1I by force, and replaced their military structure,<BR>
I would have to agree with Todd - probably had a Empathy 101 for all of the<BR>
Vilani in gov't services. The 2I would have had to fight to over come the<BR>
culture of cost effectiveness and the 3I inherited what ever mix the 2I was<BR>
able to instill.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn<BR>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 5:31 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
on 6/24/00 2:21 PM, Hans Rancke-Madsen at rancke@diku.dk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com> writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> IMTU (kinda supported by MT I guess) the Vilani are not more or less into<BR>
>> economic 'combat' they are just 'into' what ever is the most cost<BR>
effective.<BR>
>> If you do not live on a stragitic planet, and they do not want it, and<BR>
they<BR>
>> do not like you, you are likely to get nuked into the stone ages (Nukes<BR>
are<BR>
>> cheaper then an invasion - same effect), They tend to not take prisoners<BR>
(a<BR>
>> bullet is cheaper then a prisoner).. all in all not really healthy people<BR>
to<BR>
>> fight.<BR>
><BR>
> I've always wondered just how much this described Vilani of the 3rd<BR>
Imperium<BR>
> and how much it is restricted to describing Vilani of the 1st Imperium. If<BR>
> their opponents can't get at the Vilani's loved ones, sure, but I suspect<BR>
> that once you're up against enemies with starfaring capability, it is<BR>
false<BR>
> economy to nuke their planets and kill prisoners.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Killing prisoners is just plain stupid.  Anybody read about Malmedy?  During<BR>
the battle of the bulge, word went 'round the US forces that the Germans<BR>
were shooting prisoners.  Just about every decided not to surrender.<BR>
<BR>
Shooting prisoners means your opponent has nothing to lose by fighting to<BR>
the last breath. You just replace war with survival.  No wonder the Vilani<BR>
lost to the Terrans.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, the most ferocious fighters have this attitude.  If you surrender, you<BR>
will be well treated, If you resist, you will be treated to the harshest<BR>
possible measures, and you officers will feel the brunt.  Make it inviting<BR>
to surrender and you save yourself a fight, and casualties on your own side<BR>
as well as the enemy's.  Unit that surrender are just as eliminated from<BR>
battle as those that are destroyed.<BR>
<BR>
I touched on this issue in a piece of fiction I wrote years ago. A unit of<BR>
the empire, encircled by the rebels fights to the bitter end.  Eventually<BR>
overwhelmed, they are take, and the rebels execute the survivors.  When word<BR>
get round to the other regiments (and it always does), those troops swear a<BR>
blood oath to never be taken (and everyone of them assumes they'll get the<BR>
same treatment anyway), and on regimental patches, banners and such, the<BR>
units added "Remember Mitiar" (site of the battle).<BR>
<BR>
It's hard to get soldiers to fight for a political goal or a higher standard<BR>
of living.  But anyone can understand:<BR>
<BR>
"These are the animals that killed unarmed soldiers who fought with honor<BR>
and then surrendered, trusting their lives to the honor of their enemy.<BR>
When you go into battle, and find yourself asking why? think of you brother<BR>
soldiers, helpless, unarmed, bound -- slaughtered like hogs, not treated as<BR>
we would treat them".<BR>
<BR>
Given that description of the Vilani, I can only assume that any notions of<BR>
honor that exist in the military of the 3I must be the result of Terran<BR>
influence.  No wonder the Solomani feel superior.  Even animal don't kill<BR>
their rival after they surrender.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- --<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:31:54 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2649<BR>
<BR>
on 6/24/00 12:40 PM, Russell Bornschlegel at kaleja@estarcion.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Full disclosure time: I work in the computer game development industry, so<BR>
> Grossman has more or less defined himself as my Mortal Enemy.<BR>
> <BR>
> In short, my problem with him is that he's taken tragedies like Columbine<BR>
> and used them to make himself well-known as the "world's foremost expert<BR>
> on Killology" - yes, of course he's the expert, since he invented that<BR>
> "field of study" singlehandedly.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I haven't heard Grossman interviewed, only read his book.  My take on what<BR>
he was saying in not that videos cause violent behaviour.  I think the point<BR>
he was trying to make is that in individuals PREDISPOSED to act out,<BR>
desensitization to violence by media exposure and the operant conditioning<BR>
implicit in 'killing' games makes it easier for the children to pick up a<BR>
gun and start blasting. These kids are in a sense, preprogrammed to shoot as<BR>
a reaction, not a conscious decision.<BR>
<BR>
Is this true?  I don't really know.  There does seem to be a link between<BR>
violence in the media and in reality, but I am no expert on this and don't<BR>
pretend to be.  I have seen examples of movies and games that I, as a<BR>
parent, find disturbing.  The game 'Postal' comes to mind, where the player<BR>
shoots at innocent bystanders for score. I also recently played a sniper<BR>
game, where you were only supposed to shoot the bad guy, and got penalized<BR>
for hitting innocents (better, I thought).<BR>
<BR>
The media must take it's share of responsibility, just as other must (like<BR>
parents).  40 and 50 years ago, the message kids got from the media was<BR>
crime doesn't pay, if you do bad things you go to jail or worse, and justice<BR>
triumps.  Today they learn that the best way to win an argument is to blow<BR>
away the other guy, Firepower is the solution to all problems and even the<BR>
'good' guys use torture, murder or worse to win.  Lovely.<BR>
<BR>
I'd be curious to know if anyone's done a study of American vs. European<BR>
rates of crime and violence compared with the rates of media violence.<BR>
<BR>
And as an aside, I'm probably the last one who should bitch.  Although I<BR>
don't really play video games, I like violent movies and book as well as the<BR>
next guy, particularly dark stuff where the bad guys are cool and win in the<BR>
end. I suppose this is pretty obvious to anyone reading the narrative from<BR>
our Trav games.<BR>
<BR>
Lastly, the material I referred to from Grossman's book really had nothing<BR>
to do the media and all that jazz.  The behaviour of men under fire was the<BR>
subject of interest.  And while there have been critiques of SLA Marshall's<BR>
work, the majority that I have seen seem to be critiques based on the 'this<BR>
just can't be true' theory.  No one want to believe that most soldiers don't<BR>
fire in combat.  But Marshall's work, though perhaps not perfect from a pure<BR>
'scientific' standpoint has been repeatedly validated by the works of<BR>
others, notably, after action reports of the Israelis and the British in the<BR>
Faulklands.  And Marshall himself repeated his studies in Korea.<BR>
<BR>
It reminds me very much of the 'religious' wars of the .223 vs. the .308 as<BR>
a military round.  Despite reams of documented evidence by groups who had no<BR>
vested interest in either caliber that the .223 is a fully adequate round<BR>
for combat and is, in fact, 11% more lethal than the .308 according to<BR>
actual casualty reports, some people refuse to accept this.  They just<BR>
"know" that the opposite is true.  "Dammit, the bullet is bigger and the<BR>
rifle is heavier and more manly."<BR>
<BR>
To some people, their dearly held beliefs are a religion unto themselves.<BR>
They cannot be swayed by any fact.  Thankfully, I have found the TML to be<BR>
much more open-minded.  Which is probably why I post so much and vent so<BR>
often.  it's sort of like being with a bunch of friends, where you can<BR>
loosen you tie, tip back a beer and rail about the idiots of the world.  And<BR>
whether they agree with you or not, you'll always get that reassuring<BR>
"uh-huh", "you said it" or "the buggers".<BR>
<BR>
Ok, I'm ready to get back on track, all.  Thanks for listening.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:32:36 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Tines for GURPS<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:17:40 -0400 (EDT), sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>GURPS Tines:<BR>
<BR>
>ST 10, DX 10, IQ 10, HT 10<BR>
>(stats for entire entity, not per individual body)<BR>
<BR>
>Mindshare:<BR>
>Global Consciousness: 60 points<BR>
<BR>
Ooops!  Not global; a (sentient) pack was four to eight members,<BR>
and not any random set of members could make up a pack.<BR>
<BR>
(n.b. Three members were sub-sentient - smart enough to be able<BR>
to identify other people, and associate memories along the lines<BR>
of "this good, that bad".)<BR>
<BR>
(n.b. Limitations on pack size and composition held even under<BR>
the Flenserist regime; the difference between Flensing and normal<BR>
brood-kenning was that in Flensing, you were focussed on specific<BR>
attributes, verging on monomania, to turn a person into a tool,<BR>
whereas with brood-kenning, you wanted a well-rounded individual,<BR>
with complementary attributes in the members - a person rather<BR>
than a tool.)<BR>
<BR>
(n.b. Another good read with discussion on the subject of turning<BR>
people into tools is Brunner's _The_Shockwave_Rider_.)<BR>
<BR>
>One Fine Manipulator -10 points<BR>
>(one Tines paws could perhaps at best<BR>
>equal one human hand)<BR>
<BR>
Umm, no.  Paws were paws; fine manipulation was generally through<BR>
a combination of noses, lips, and paws, almost universally from<BR>
several members working in tandem.  In AFUtD, typing (on the Pink<BR>
Elephant and on the ship) was done with noses; grasping was<BR>
universally done with mouths (the match for the cannon, knives,<BR>
etc.).<BR>
<BR>
>Comments?<BR>
<BR>
Beyond comments such as the above, based on information available<BR>
from reading the book only, I cannot permit myself to comment<BR>
because of my interaction on this topic with Mr Vinge <sigh>.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 15:00:10 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Running out of Ammo<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote :<BR>
> You could argue that "The Matrix" is as much of a Gamer's Movie as<BR>
> "Alien: Resurrection".<BR>
<BR>
It's not only a "gamer's movie" but it's a "Mage : the Ascension" movie.<BR>
<BR>
My Mage players tried very hard to prevent me from seeing the movie, because<BR>
they were scared that I'd get ideas for running the Technocracy from the<BR>
Agents. Fooled them, I bought the DVD. <grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2653<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, June 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2654<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
Discussion on sheilds made of modern materials<BR>
GT: Imperial Postal Inspectors<BR>
Re: Vinge Storyu(was Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller)<BR>
Re: Viliani (was: Jo Combat  (was Marine Cutlass))<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: Partial reloads<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
RE: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
Re: Cutlasses<BR>
RE: Vilani<BR>
RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:11:30 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
That would be difficult with a partially loaded SKS. The SKS doesn't have a <BR>
way to hold the bolt open unless the weapon is empty. You can try to hold <BR>
it open manually while loading the weapon, but it tends to be easier to <BR>
shoot the rifle dry and re-load using a full stripper clip. (In my <BR>
experience, YMMV)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 10:22 AM 6/24/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Shouldn't be a problem from what I understand.  You'd just have stripper<BR>
>clips with partial loads, so if you shot it dry and were fumbling to get it<BR>
>reloaded, that clip wouldn't be the prime choice :)<BR>
><BR>
>Jesse<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> > Erickson<BR>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 12:13 AM<BR>
> > To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > In mail you write:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > At 09:52 PM 6/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> > >>on 6/22/00 5:48 PM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >>Your players need to learn about tactical reloads.  Never shoot<BR>
> > you gun dry<BR>
> > >>(unless you don't have a choice).  Whenever there is a lull,<BR>
> > top off or swap<BR>
> > >>magazines.<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > Amen! After training excercises I was always fishing out magazines with<BR>
> > > three or four rounds from my cargo pockets.  Everytime I got<BR>
> > low and had a<BR>
> > > second, I slapped in a fresh magazine.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Not sure how that'd work with my SKS. 10-round stripper clips.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Anybody know if there's a problem with trying to do a partial reload<BR>
> > using stripper clips?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > --<BR>
> > Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
> >  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> > leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
> ><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:17:15 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Discussion on sheilds made of modern materials<BR>
<BR>
The problem with shields is related to the problem that FFS2 armour values<BR>
dont really allow effective body armour.<BR>
<BR>
An example is a 1cm by 1.5 meter by 1 meter shield is 0.01x1.5x1.0 or 0.015<BR>
m3 of material.<BR>
<BR>
If this was build out of wood, it would mass 0.8*15 kilos, or 12 kilos, and<BR>
would have AV of 0.29.<BR>
<BR>
If it was built out of aluminium, it would mass 3.2*15 kilos, or 48 kilos,<BR>
and have an AV of 1.43.<BR>
<BR>
If it was built out of TL9 Light Ceramic Composite, it would mass 6*15<BR>
kilos, or 90 kilos, and would have an AV of 8.57. To get the mass down to<BR>
22.5 kilos, we would get a thickness of 2.5mm, and thus a AV of 2.<BR>
<BR>
Let us assume we have a 50 kJ plasma weapon ... on second thoughts, no, lets<BR>
build it.<BR>
<BR>
Famaile Spofulam Light Plasma Gun (TL10).<BR>
<BR>
0.4kg firing unit ; Cr 480<BR>
0.4 kg support hardware ; Cr 480<BR>
0.3 kg Gyro-Compensator ; Cr 180<BR>
0.01 kg Action ; Cr 5 (NB : TL11 model will be rapid fire)<BR>
24 kg cartridges ; Cr 5<BR>
Magazine for 20 cartridges ; 1.92 kilos, Cr 20<BR>
20 cartridges ; 4.8 kilos, Cr 100<BR>
Plastic Stock ; 0.5 kg ; Cr 30<BR>
Weapon mass : 8.33 kilos full<BR>
Weapon price : Cr 1300 empty ; full magazines cost Cr 120 and mass 6.72<BR>
kilos.<BR>
<BR>
Range : 33m effective range<BR>
Damage : 8.94 (if damage is on the usual x^2 falloff, it means that you have<BR>
DV of 2 at 66m, and DV of 1 at 100m. FWIW using my 'Making Energy Weapons<BR>
Work in FFS2' rules gives it a DV of 57 at short range. This falls to a DV<BR>
of 27 at 66m and to 18 at 100m).<BR>
<BR>
Single-shot recoil : 3.00 (I think). RoF is every 5 seconds.<BR>
<BR>
It's pretty heavy, but I think you could deal with it on a sling. A bipod<BR>
would take total mass up to 9.5 kilos or so. I dont think you need battle<BR>
dress to use it.<BR>
<BR>
Thats enough to go thru our theoretical 1 cm LCC shield.<BR>
<BR>
I think that rifle grenades would do bad things to hi-tech shields.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, once the amount of armour on a battlefield goes up, I think<BR>
rapid-fire rifles would be replaced with Crunch Guns of various descriptions<BR>
(including large, slow rounds like HEAP grenades).<BR>
<BR>
This would definitly have occoured by the time Combat Armour gets into<BR>
general issue at TL11.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 23:52:09 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: GT: Imperial Postal Inspectors<BR>
<BR>
A few months ago someone on the Traveller Mailing List posted the<BR>
message below about U.S. Postal Inspectors, which got me to thinking<BR>
about their Traveller equivalent. RL got in the way of me responding<BR>
immediately, but I saved what I had for future reference. Since I<BR>
have a little time right now I thought I'd follow up on this.<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:27:30, "Douglas E. Berry"<BR>
<gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote in the Traveller mailing list:<BR>
<BR>
Subject: Mail carriers (was: (no subject))<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> If you want to see one of the meanest federal LE agencies around, take a<BR>
> look at the Postal Inspection Service<BR>
<BR>
> http://www.usps.gov/websites/depart/inspect/aboutus.htm<BR>
<BR>
> These guys have jurisdiction in anything that affects the US Mail.  Name<BR>
> anything that couldn't be included in that definition.<BR>
<BR>
Given that "One of the Imperium's most important roles is that of an<BR>
interstellar ``postal union''" (GT: First In p.12), the IISS Comms<BR>
Office undoubtably has an Inspection Service of its own, if only to<BR>
ensure that Imperial Postal Regulations are being followed. That it<BR>
is not listed as a separate division[1] may indicate that both<BR>
X-Boat and Imperial Courier Services each have their own independant<BR>
inspection operations, staffed by operatives borrowed from Security<BR>
and Intelligence Branchs[2], but *theoretically* answering only to<BR>
the heads of their respective Comms Office department[3]. While<BR>
seconded to their respective inspectorate the officer's military or<BR>
administrative rank is temporarily put aside, and the new Inspector<BR>
is subject to the same peer review process as other members of the<BR>
Field. Note that each inspectorate is only concerned with enforcing<BR>
the POSTAL regulations for its service; violations of general IISS<BR>
regs are turned over to the Security Branch for investigation.<BR>
<BR>
The reason most often cited for having two Postal Inspectorates are<BR>
the intrinsic differences between the X-Boat and Courier services.<BR>
The X-Boat Service has very little contact with the Imperium at<BR>
large so most investigations conducted by its Inspectorate are<BR>
completely internal, involving regulations concerning the security<BR>
and handling of X-mail, the physical condition and maintenance of<BR>
equipment and the physical and mental health of X-boat crew[4]. In<BR>
contrast, the Courier Service Inspectorate is responsable for the<BR>
enforcement of regulations concerning *all* physical mail handled by<BR>
the Imperium, whether carried on Imperial Couriers or by commercial<BR>
contractors[5]. This often requires direct access to the public, so<BR>
many of these investigations are conducted undercover. Inspectors<BR>
from both services have very wide ranging powers of arrest, since by<BR>
Imperial Law any crime committed against or using Imperial mail in<BR>
any form is considered a crime against the Imperium itself[6]. The<BR>
best template I could find for this was the Inspector General in GT:<BR>
Starports p.52.<BR>
<BR>
NOTES:<BR>
<BR>
[1] OTOH, it could just be a simple oversight by the author, but I<BR>
    like to imagine it as office politics in action. ;)<BR>
[2] Depending the current political climate between Communications,<BR>
    Operations and Detached Duty Offices, those assigned to this<BR>
    duty could be either promising young officers in need of Field<BR>
    experience, grizzled old veterans counting time until retirement<BR>
    or screw-ups and misfits they want to get rid of but who are too<BR>
    highly connected to just fire.<BR>
[3] Occasionally a new "recruit" is actually a double agent for<BR>
    their "former" masters, either conducting an investigation of<BR>
    the inspection service itself for the Security Branch or using<BR>
    the role of Postal Inspector as legal cover for an Intelligence<BR>
    Branch operation.<BR>
[4] Contrary to popular belief, psychological testing for X-boat<BR>
    pilots is *not* lax; too many X-boats being lost in jump would<BR>
    soon cripple the network.<BR>
[5] See the sidebar on GT: Far Trader p.64 for details of commercial<BR>
    mail contracts.<BR>
[6] This statement is just my humble opinion, but is borne out by<BR>
    the general Imperial policy on interstellar trade and commerce.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              | The Computer is removed by San Francisco for the |<BR>
              |           glowing power drill. FNORD!            |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:15:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Vinge Storyu(was Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>>Actually, in Vinge's short story "The Blabber" the Tines are <BR>
>>>mentioned as using multiple small fighters, with one body per <BR>
>>>fighter.  Instead of using sonics, the fighters communicated using<BR>
>>>radio communications like the Tines developed in AFUtD.  <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Never read this one, just AFUtD - where can I find a copy?<BR>
><BR>
> I found it in _The Good Stuff_ a collection edited by Gardner Dozois <BR>
> and put out by the Science Fiction Book Club.  The info in the back <BR>
> says the story was first published in a collection titled New <BR>
> Destinies (Winter 1988, Baen Books).<BR>
<BR>
It was in a more recent collection of Vinge stuff.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:21:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Viliani (was: Jo Combat  (was Marine Cutlass))<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Is there any table that people have come up with for orbital deadfall<BR>
> telephone poles? (ie, what their megaton range would be under diffrent<BR>
> gravities, atmospheres etc?)<BR>
<BR>
It'll hit at close to orbital velocity. If not more. The books should<BR>
have tables for orbital and escape velocities.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 23:08:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
RE: Bullet construction; The French ARCANE ammunition of the early 80's used<BR>
a solid copper bullet with a 45 degree ogive and a hollow base for superior<BR>
penetration. Velocities were extremely high in .380 ACP, 9x19mm, .38<BR>
special, .357 magnum, and .45 ACP.<BR>
<BR>
The Safariland concealment vest is rated at NIJ Level IIa: It doesn't<BR>
surprise me that a spitzer bullet would make it through. Some Low Velocity<BR>
9mm loads will as well.<BR>
<BR>
I am well aware that most sharp objects will not even be slowed by a bullet<BR>
proof vest: they slip between the individual threads of the fabric.<BR>
<BR>
Penetration needs to be qualified: At what range? Most rifle rounds are NOT<BR>
perfectly stabilized at the muzzle: they need time for aerodynamic braking<BR>
to straighten them out. An 7.62mm NATO armor piercing round fired into a<BR>
plate at 25 yards will have dramatically less penetration than the same<BR>
round at 100 yards. A decent treatise of this can be read in Handloading<BR>
Digest 1989 Edition. The author was able to to perforate steel plates at<BR>
distances of up to 200 yards with a .220 swift and a .17-.22-250 "Improved"<BR>
(Way overbore).<BR>
<BR>
Slightly OT: This is why boat-tailed bullets aren't as accurate at shorter<BR>
ranges (<200 yards) compared to flatbase bullets.<BR>
<BR>
As far as the .22 Sabot round I described, I saw in an Guns and Ammo Circa<BR>
1994(?) I'm not totally sure: I can find out. It was mentioned right on the<BR>
cover. I AM sure of the top velocity: 5,005 FPS. It was one of Bob Milek's<BR>
last articles, as I recall. He was using pulled Remington Accelerator Sabots<BR>
with 45 to 55 grain HP, FMJ and SP projos.<BR>
<BR>
I think you're right on the flechette thing: The shotgun flechettes were not<BR>
individually machined like the rifle flechettes were: they were made of<BR>
stamped steel, and there were a number of problems with the sabot and the<BR>
loading pattern in the shells themselves. The "hooking" effect, from what I<BR>
read, resulted in a fairly large wound, but with fairly superficial<BR>
penetration. This was not exactly what they had in mind: good energy<BR>
transfer, but they wanted more penetration. Steyr's flechette 5.56mm round<BR>
was dropped because of excessive penetration, with not enough energy<BR>
transfer during the OICW trials.<BR>
<BR>
Ezell's books are the best, but remeber to take them in the context of when<BR>
they were written: The "ballistic zeitgeist" has changed dramatically over<BR>
the last 10-25 years. It seems to run in five year cycles. :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 6:17 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/24/00 4:46 PM, Matthew W. Helton at mwhelton@cox-internet.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > The single largest determinor for projectiles penetration ability is<BR>
> > velocity. Mass and bullet diameter (Sectional Density = Diameter/Mass if<BR>
you<BR>
> > use the ballistic term.) each play a part, too, but relative to the<BR>
targets<BR>
> > we are talking about, velocity is all-important. Most soft armor used<BR>
today<BR>
> > by police officers can stop the vaunted .44 Magnum and .50 A/E rounds<BR>
with<BR>
> > ease. Don't try it with some higher velocity .357 (125 grain Remington<BR>
and<BR>
> > Federal loadings will penetrate NIJ Level IIIA soft armor) and Carbine<BR>
> > loaded 9mm rounds though...<BR>
><BR>
> Well put, although bullet design can have a tremendous effect on<BR>
> penetration.  While doing some research on special purpose ammo, we made<BR>
up<BR>
> some solid copper .45acp rounds that had a 45 degree point.  Fired at<BR>
> standard velocity, these rounds easily penetrated a Safariland concealment<BR>
> vest.<BR>
><BR>
> Further, a Jivaro blowgun with wire darts can easily penetrated a standard<BR>
> vest using nothing wore exotic than lung power.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The line is somewhat hazy, but *Most* rounds that travel above 1400 FPS<BR>
at<BR>
> > the time of impact will penetrate NIJ Level IIIA armor regardless of<BR>
> > construction or bullet diameter (Assuming pistol and rifle rounds less<BR>
than<BR>
> > 15mm in diameter).<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Rifle rounds moving above 2000 FPS will not be slowed significantly by<BR>
most<BR>
> > soft armor: your armor will then only serve to soak up your vital fluids<BR>
as<BR>
> > they leak out...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Hypervelocity rounds (4000 FPS+) have excellent penetration; like being<BR>
able<BR>
> > to penetrate 1/2" to 3/4" steel plate using conventional copper jacketed<BR>
> > lead bullets): terminal performance is often quite spectacular as well.<BR>
><BR>
> I'd have to question this one.  Having fired a .220 swift loaded VERY hot<BR>
at<BR>
> metal silhouette targets ( 3/16" steel plate ) I never saw a single<BR>
> penetration. Sectional density is very significant when it comes to<BR>
> penetration.  The is the whole point of using APFSDS ammunition against<BR>
> tanks.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > As far as Sabotted rounds go, again it boils down to velocity at impact.<BR>
It<BR>
> > has been noted that flechette bullets terminal effects suffer because<BR>
they<BR>
> > are TOO stable on impact. I've read articles where people have attained<BR>
> >velocities of over 5000 FPS with a .224" bullet in a .308" Sabot loaded<BR>
into<BR>
> >the .300<BR>
> >Winchester Magnum cartridge with decent accuracy. Ouch!<BR>
><BR>
> I am unaware of this.  The best velocities I've seen are with .20cal and<BR>
.17<BR>
> cal bullets from large cases.  I'm intrigued.  Can you point me to a<BR>
source.<BR>
> I subscribe to and keep copies of just about any US gun publication you'd<BR>
> care to name.<BR>
><BR>
> Further, US army tests of high velocity flechettes on animals showed that<BR>
> they were very lethal due to their tendency to hook and deform.  The<BR>
problem<BR>
> was with shotgun flechettes, which don't have the velocity and tend to<BR>
just<BR>
> drill through the target.<BR>
><BR>
> The whole point is to make round stable in air, but not to over-stabilize<BR>
> them so that they will upset in tissue.  Because expanding ammunition is<BR>
not<BR>
> used by the military, bullet retardation, and hence energy transfer relies<BR>
> on the bullet tumbling one tissue penetration is achieved.<BR>
><BR>
> This is exactly why the 5.56x45mm ball round proved to be 11% more lethal<BR>
> than the 7.62x51mm ball.  The .223 round is less stable when transiting<BR>
> media, and generally begins tumbling within an inch of penetration.  The<BR>
> .308 is nice and stable, and generally doesn't start to tumble until after<BR>
> about 10 inches, barely within the width of the average human torso.<BR>
> Hypervelocity flechettes are even more prone to bend and tumble on<BR>
> transiting media, and given the relatively long projectile, create larger<BR>
> wound tracks and dump more energy more quickly.<BR>
><BR>
> "Due to its long, thin shape, there is a lack of rigidity, and the<BR>
flechette<BR>
> turns into a hook on impact with the target.  It becomes totally unstable<BR>
> and imparts its full kinetic energy to the target, producing an<BR>
> explosive-type wound" (Hobart, 1973a, p314)<BR>
><BR>
> "Flechettes tend to buckle into a hook upon impact with flesh, and since<BR>
> this is a very poor ballistic shape, and since flesh is about 800 times<BR>
> denser than air, the buckled flechette gyrates and gives up its energy<BR>
very<BR>
> rapidly, and thus earning high marks as an effective projectile" (Archer,<BR>
> 1976, P.13"<BR>
><BR>
> "The attitude of the American public is of real concern to the Army for a<BR>
> very practical reason.  By influencing their Congressman, citizens can<BR>
> thwart even what the military chief believe are their best ideas. The<BR>
horror<BR>
> with which the public regards chemical and biological warfare is reflected<BR>
> in the Army's relatively low budget for research and development in this<BR>
> area. The service wanted to avoid a similar fate for SPIW. The reason for<BR>
> the Army's anxiety is that the wound from a SPIW arrow is usually big,<BR>
nasty<BR>
> and fatal.  The effect is similar to that of the soft-nosed dum dum<BR>
bullet,<BR>
> which was condemned by most of the major powers during the Hague Peace<BR>
> Conference of 1889..[The] tumbling action of the flechettes which is<BR>
induced<BR>
> by their hitting an object, is what accounts for the gravely torn wounds<BR>
> they can inflict on human targets." (Beller, 1968,pp.81-82)<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
> --<BR>
> "Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
> killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
> --<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 23:10:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Partial reloads<BR>
<BR>
Much has been made of the M1's Enbloc clip ejection noise: was the enemy<BR>
ever close enough to discern this shortcoming over the din of combat?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 6:46 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Partial reloads<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On 24 Jun 00, at 11:42, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > > Anybody know if there's a problem with trying to do a partial reload<BR>
> > >  using stripper clips?<BR>
><BR>
> > Not a problem on a Commission Pattern Mauser (M1888), but I have no<BR>
> > expereince with other stripper clip weapons. Can one do a partial reload<BR>
with<BR>
> > (say) an M1 Garand? I'm inclined to think not, but I've never fired one,<BR>
never<BR>
> > loaded one, and only handled one once or twice.<BR>
><BR>
> Stripper Clips by definition strip the rounds when you insert them into<BR>
the<BR>
> magazine (Line up the clip with the guides and push down firmly).<BR>
> Therefore any weapon which uses stripper clips can be topped up with<BR>
> individual rounds at any time. however the M1 Garand does not use<BR>
> stripper clips (the clip is retained in the magazine) and can not be<BR>
topped<BR>
> up. Actually it was one of the M1s major failings, that plus the clip went<BR>
> flying out of the weapon when empty and struck the ground with an audible<BR>
> "Ping" and then "Clunck" which told all and sundry that the weapon was<BR>
> empty. Another example is the Mannlicher, where the clip forms part of the<BR>
> magazine.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:28:45 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
>For a given amount of energy in the pulse, a shorter pulse delivers<BR>
>*more* power at the target. And though the rules don't model it well,<BR>
>the power delivered to the target can be as important as the total<BR>
>energy.<BR>
<BR>
Past a point, this isn't true - there's not a huge difference between<BR>
delivering 100 MJ in a 10 microsecond pulse and a 1 microsecond<BR>
pulse. Or even a 1 millisecond pulse (which is the TNE canon value.)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 00:26:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
<BR>
I would think that a life support hit is more likely to cause a fire due to<BR>
ruptured oxygen tanks, with the oxygen sprayed into a "hot" compartment<BR>
items would burn quite fiercely, most items, including metals are<BR>
combustible under the right circumstances, this may produce, for awhile the<BR>
hollywood burning ships appearance. As well as telling other vessels that<BR>
you have a little problem.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 00:57:45 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cutlasses<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:20:25 -0700<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>Ellis, thanks you.<BR>
<BR>
Your welcome.<BR>
<BR>
>I remember reading this years ago, but haven't been able<BR>
>to get a copy for the library.  Sorry to here you lost a book.<BR>
<BR>
Lost a lot of books actually. Luckilly the Traveller books<BR>
survived mostly intact. (Some water damage to the MT and TNE<BR>
books but still readable and not smelly or anything)<BR>
<BR>
>I'm still<BR>
>waiting for a friend to find and return my copy of SLAM's "Men against<BR>
>fire". Anyone got a copy they want to sell me?<BR>
><BR>
>Tod<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"I'm all lost in the supermarket,<BR>
   I can no longer shop happily,<BR>
   I came in here for the special offer<BR>
   Guaranteed Personality" - Strummer/Jones (The Clash)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:59:18 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Vilani<BR>
<BR>
On 24 Jun 00, at 19:31, Tsykoduk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I never said that they were overly bright >:)<BR>
<BR>
> However, IMHO, IMTU this was a cultural thing for them. When they ran into the<BR>
> terrains, they had never thought about taking prisoners (the bullet remark was<BR>
> off the cuff. They would just not take them. You are wounded, too bad, that is<BR>
> your problem. If you could not fight, you were ignored). If it is deeply<BR>
> rooted in the culture, then perhaps it is considered just part of war - there<BR>
> was a remark a while ago about the difference between the Dark Ages paradigm<BR>
> on death and our current one - this would be a similar case. They would<BR>
> literally not know any other way. More then likely it was a big shock when the<BR>
> Terrains met them the first time - the look like us, they have very similar<BR>
> genomes, but they think totally differently. More differently then other<BR>
> cultures on earth - so alien that at first it probably was so far out side the<BR>
> box that we had a really tough time dealing with them<BR>
<BR>
As someone who has done a lot of work on the Interstellar Wars and is still <BR>
doing more, I thought I might chime in here. The Vilani reputation for <BR>
brutality and viciousness in war is much overstated in the 3rd Imperium. <BR>
During the Interstellar Wars period the major differences were that the <BR>
Vilani did not make any distinction between combatants and non-<BR>
combatants, and the level at which the Vilani would respect surrender. <BR>
Also, Vilani attitudes should be put into the context of a power that had <BR>
had thousands of years of total and overwhelming superiority over any <BR>
potential enemy.<BR>
<BR>
To the Vilani, War was something fought by an entire nation. To the Vilani <BR>
those who took care of the children of the workers who supported the war <BR>
effort were just as much involved in the war as the soldiers at the front. And <BR>
therefore were just as legitimate a target. The children themselves would <BR>
grow to become part of the war effort and were therefore legitimate targets. <BR>
To put it simply, the Vilani viewed the entire society as contributing to the <BR>
war effort, and therefore legitimate targets.<BR>
<BR>
Also the Vilani did accept and honour surrender. But that surrender would <BR>
have to be on their terms (which were always drawn up to prevent those <BR>
surrendering from ever being a threat again). Also to the Vilani, it matter <BR>
little if an individual soldier or platoon surrendered; but it did matter if a <BR>
fleet, army or world surrendered. Terms offered to a "significant" force <BR>
would be respected as long as those who surrendered kept their end. <BR>
However, if the other side broke the terms, the Vilani had no hesitation in <BR>
making an example.<BR>
<BR>
> IMTU that is one of the big reasons for the nth Interstellar Wars starting as<BR>
> well as continuing so long. It became a us or them after the first one. We<BR>
> were just kind of freaked out by the differences perhaps they nuked or rocked<BR>
> a colony in the middle of nowhere. Weapons of Mass Destruction do not go over<BR>
> well with terrains :)<BR>
<BR>
Actually the Interstellar Wars were suprisingly free of the use of WoMD in <BR>
terms of normal Vilani practice. Vilani intelligence identified very early that <BR>
the Terrans had devastating bio-weapons for which the Vilani had no <BR>
counter. A kind of unspoken MAD developed, with neither side pushing the <BR>
other too far.<BR>
<BR>
> And we did not respond well to being 'put in our place'<BR>
<BR>
> In re the 3I's military out look:<BR>
> As the Solomani took the 1I by force, and replaced their military structure, I<BR>
> would have to agree with Todd - probably had a Empathy 101 for all of the<BR>
> Vilani in gov't services. The 2I would have had to fight to over come the<BR>
> culture of cost effectiveness and the 3I inherited what ever mix the 2I was<BR>
> able to instill.<BR>
<BR>
The 3rd Imperiums concepts of honour in war are entirely a Solomani <BR>
construct. This is a rough of a text I'm thinking of including in my IW work <BR>
to illustrate Vilani attitudes. Its the final statement of a Vilani Officer <BR>
convicted of War Crimes:<BR>
<BR>
"This is a farce. You say I am guilty of "War Crimes", that I am a murderer, <BR>
that I have no honour. By your terms war itself is a crime. The only crime in <BR>
war is not to end it as quickly as possible. There is no murder in war, just <BR>
brutality and killing. It is however true that I am not an "honourable warrior" <BR>
and I am glad of it. We Vilani find no honour or glory in killing and <BR>
brutalising; We leave that for barbarians. Do what you will, but this is still a <BR>
farce and you will always be barbarians."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 23:24:26 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
<BR>
Whoops!  Forgot about the bolt hold-open.  My bad!<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Richard<BR>
> Wilson<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 7:12 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: shipboard combat<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> That would be difficult with a partially loaded SKS. The SKS<BR>
> doesn't have a<BR>
> way to hold the bolt open unless the weapon is empty. You can try to hold<BR>
> it open manually while loading the weapon, but it tends to be easier to<BR>
> shoot the rifle dry and re-load using a full stripper clip. (In my<BR>
> experience, YMMV)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 10:22 AM 6/24/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >Shouldn't be a problem from what I understand.  You'd just have stripper<BR>
> >clips with partial loads, so if you shot it dry and were<BR>
> fumbling to get it<BR>
> >reloaded, that clip wouldn't be the prime choice :)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Jesse<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > > From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> > > Erickson<BR>
> > > Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 12:13 AM<BR>
> > > To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > > Subject: Re: shipboard combat<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > In mail you write:<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > > At 09:52 PM 6/22/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> > > >>on 6/22/00 5:48 PM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
> > > ><BR>
> > > >>Your players need to learn about tactical reloads.  Never shoot<BR>
> > > you gun dry<BR>
> > > >>(unless you don't have a choice).  Whenever there is a lull,<BR>
> > > top off or swap<BR>
> > > >>magazines.<BR>
> > > ><BR>
> > > > Amen! After training excercises I was always fishing out<BR>
> magazines with<BR>
> > > > three or four rounds from my cargo pockets.  Everytime I got<BR>
> > > low and had a<BR>
> > > > second, I slapped in a fresh magazine.<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > Not sure how that'd work with my SKS. 10-round stripper clips.<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > Anybody know if there's a problem with trying to do a partial reload<BR>
> > > using stripper clips?<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > --<BR>
> > > Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
> > >  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> > > leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
> > ><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Richard Wilson<BR>
><BR>
> rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
><BR>
> ========================================================================<BR>
> Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
> strive to overcome.<BR>
> ========================================================================<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2654<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2655</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, June 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2655<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
H&E V1.0.3 Released<BR>
Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
Re: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
RE: Running out of Ammo<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: Tines for GURPS<BR>
Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
Re: IT Geeks<BR>
Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
Titan A.E. brief<BR>
RE: Vilani<BR>
Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Vilani<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: IT Geeks<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:20:29 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: H&E V1.0.3 Released<BR>
<BR>
H&E V1.0.3 has been released. Download details can be found at:-<BR>
<BR>
http://www.downport.com/wbd/HEAVEN_&_EARTH.htm<BR>
<BR>
This updated version includes a number of minor bug fixes and several new<BR>
features, namely:-<BR>
<BR>
*Min and Max Separation for Stars was displayed as zero for pregenerated<BR>
data. This has now been fixed.<BR>
<BR>
*Min and Max Separation for Stars now displayed in World Details.<BR>
<BR>
*Min and Max Separation for Planetary Bodies are now displayed in System<BR>
Map.<BR>
<BR>
*Orbital Distance, Min and Max Separation now displayed with up to three<BR>
decimal places.<BR>
<BR>
*Map Scale was displayed as zero for pregenerated data. This has now been<BR>
fixed.<BR>
<BR>
*'Empty Orbit' option did not work as previous versions. This has now been<BR>
fixed.<BR>
<BR>
*'Path Not Found' when loading program. This has now been fixed.<BR>
<BR>
*'Runtime Error 5' when attempting to generate World Names. This has now<BR>
been fixed.<BR>
<BR>
*'About to Generate Random Sector' displayed instead of 'About to Generate<BR>
Random Subsector' when generating Random Subsector. This has now been fixed.<BR>
<BR>
*MT System Maps now resize to fill Inner and Outer System Boxes.<BR>
<BR>
*MT System Maps now have scale.<BR>
<BR>
*GURPs Forbidden Zone calculations were incorrect. This has now been fixed.<BR>
<BR>
*GURPs Orbit Distance calculations were incorrect. This has now been fixed.<BR>
<BR>
*'Save Sector Map' option added.<BR>
<BR>
*World Details Can Now Be Broken Up Into Smaller Sections of Information.<BR>
i.e. GM can hide certain sections from PCs.<BR>
<BR>
*'UWP Editor' can be used to input/edit UWP data for Systems in 'Sector<BR>
Editor'.<BR>
<BR>
*Random Sectors are now saved with a newline for each System.<BR>
<BR>
*Sector Density is set to default (50%) when there is an error loading<BR>
options.sav file at initialisation.<BR>
<BR>
*World Name Generator is set to default (Vilani) when there is an error<BR>
loading options.sav file at initialisation.<BR>
<BR>
*UWP used for GURPs System Generations reflects the differences between<BR>
GURPs and traditional Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
This will be the last release of H&E until the World Detail Editor is<BR>
completed. The Editor will be a very lengthy task, so, don't expect anything<BR>
too soon.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 01:37:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>For a given amount of energy in the pulse, a shorter pulse delivers<BR>
>>*more* power at the target. And though the rules don't model it well,<BR>
>>the power delivered to the target can be as important as the total<BR>
>>energy.<BR>
><BR>
> Past a point, this isn't true - there's not a huge difference between<BR>
> delivering 100 MJ in a 10 microsecond pulse and a 1 microsecond<BR>
> pulse. Or even a 1 millisecond pulse (which is the TNE canon value.)<BR>
<BR>
That's why I said "can be". :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 01:43:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I would think that a life support hit is more likely to cause a fire due to<BR>
> ruptured oxygen tanks, with the oxygen sprayed into a "hot" compartment<BR>
> items would burn quite fiercely, most items, including metals are<BR>
> combustible under the right circumstances, this may produce, for awhile the<BR>
> hollywood burning ships appearance. As well as telling other vessels that<BR>
> you have a little problem.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, no. <BR>
<BR>
A fire, especially a *metal* fire being fed by an oxygen jet looks more<BR>
like a magnesium flare than like any "normal" sort of fire. Watch<BR>
someone using a cutting torch sometime. That's how such devices work,<BR>
they use a regular oxy-acetylene flame to get the metal hot enough to<BR>
ignite, then you hit the "trigger" and feed it a jet of pure oxygen.<BR>
The jet *burns* the metal out of the way.<BR>
<BR>
Blinding white light, and if the metal is iron or steel, *huge* numbers<BR>
of sparks.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:59:06 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Running out of Ammo<BR>
<BR>
At 22:53 -0400 24/6/00, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
>It's not only a "gamer's movie" but it's a "Mage : the Ascension" movie.<BR>
><BR>
>My Mage players tried very hard to prevent me from seeing the movie, because<BR>
>they were scared that I'd get ideas for running the Technocracy from the<BR>
>Agents. Fooled them, I bought the DVD. <grin><BR>
<BR>
Nasty... what did they do when they found out?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:51:55 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
At 22:53 -0400 24/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
> > URL perchance?<BR>
><BR>
>Don't we all wish.  The battered partial copy I had of ALCLAD was on loan<BR>
>from a friend.  I need to file a FOIA to get a full copy, since I don't<BR>
>think it's ever been published in the non-military community.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
FOIA - Freedom of Information ????  (This is were living in the UK is <BR>
really leaving me out of this) ;-)<BR>
<BR>
>I hope to be posting a lot of this material on my Firearms Technology site<BR>
>(http://www.guntech.com).<BR>
<BR>
Noted...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 05:35:45 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Tines for GURPS<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:17:40 -0400 (EDT), sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >GURPS Tines:<BR>
> <BR>
> >ST 10, DX 10, IQ 10, HT 10<BR>
> >(stats for entire entity, not per individual body)<BR>
> <BR>
> >Mindshare:<BR>
> >Global Consciousness: 60 points<BR>
> <BR>
> Ooops!  Not global; a (sentient) pack was four to eight members,<BR>
> and not any random set of members could make up a pack.<BR>
> <BR>
> (n.b. Three members were sub-sentient - smart enough to be able<BR>
> to identify other people, and associate memories along the lines<BR>
> of "this good, that bad".)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, SJG may have changed terms recently, but in GURPS" <BR>
Fantasy Folk (which is what I'm using for point costs) Global <BR>
Consciousness merely means that every entity which is part of the <BR>
collective intelligence is linked up full-time with all other members, <BR>
and that there is no central hive mind controlling things.  From <BR>
there you define how many members the collective have.  Having 2-<BR>
9 is worth -10 points, change that from 4-8 and you've got the Tines <BR>
exactly.<BR>
<BR>
>One Fine Manipulator -10 points<BR>
>(one Tines paws could perhaps at best<BR>
>equal one human hand)<BR>
<BR>
> Umm, no.  Paws were paws; fine manipulation was generally <BR>
> through a combination of noses, lips, and paws, almost <BR>
> universally from several members working in tandem.  In AFUtD, <BR>
> typing (on the Pink Elephant and on the ship) was done with <BR>
> noses; grasping was universally done with mouths (the match for <BR>
> the cannon, knives, etc.).<BR>
<BR>
True, however, taking paws, lips, & mouth all together and you <BR>
might say that each individual body possessed the equivalent of <BR>
one fine manipulator.  It's a bit awkward, but IMHO better than the <BR>
other rules options I can think of.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:36:42 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
<BR>
Todd Glenn wrote:<BR>
>In modern times, society at large is isolated by death, and the 'mere' act<BR>
>of killing, even in self-defense, is viewed as deeply morally wrong.  We<BR>
>have huge numbers of protestors opposing the death penalty for even the most<BR>
>heinous of crimes.  Or society says, in effect, no-one, not even the most<BR>
>craven, deserves to be killed. Vietnam veterans returning from war were<BR>
>decried as 'baby-killers', not greeted as heroes and given parades.<BR>
<BR>
A couple of things:<BR>
<BR>
For Vietnam veterans: Replace "society" with "society as depicted by the news <BR>
media" and you'll be more accurate.  Not every American at the time had feelings <BR>
best expressed by standing at an airport and shouting obscenities at returning <BR>
soldiers,  but those were the Americans who were easiest to film.<BR>
<BR>
As for the death penalty: huge, noisy and public is significant, but does not<BR>
in itself demonstrate a majority.  The election or defeat of politicians who support <BR>
the death penalty may be a better measure.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 09:04:02 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: SF/Fantasy societies in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlen wrote:<BR>
>OTOH, carniculture (see, e.g., Piper's _Four_Day_Planet_) of long<BR>
>pork might satisfy the taste, without running into the ethical<BR>
>problems that raising children for food might.<BR>
<BR>
Note that for this particular culture, there are no ethical problems with<BR>
raising children for food.  As there isn't any problem, there probably won't<BR>
be an impetus to find a solution.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:25:38 -0600<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com><BR>
Subject: Re: IT Geeks<BR>
<BR>
Tsykoduk wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Geez, how may people on this list are in IT/MIS?<BR>
<BR>
NT, Oracle DBA, UNIX, LAN/WAN, Internet, and IT security.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Erwin Fritz<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:35:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
<BR>
For those that have only seen news clips......Most GI's returning from<BR>
Vietnam came thru Oakland or San Diego to outprocess from the<BR>
Army/Marines/etc. Rarely would there be anybody there because both places<BR>
were a hell holes. Most of the film footage of the day was setup by the News<BR>
Agencies and Political Parties. When you got home very few people outside of<BR>
your immediate family cared that you had been to Vietnam. It wasn't until<BR>
the late 60's/early 70's that the American people even realized that we were<BR>
in daily combat. For a lot of Americans Vietnam didn't start until January<BR>
68 with the Tet offensive and the news coverage with all the American body<BR>
bags. There were a lot less incidents than most people think because the<BR>
GI's came out the gate in onesies and twosies. Quite often you would hear of<BR>
altercations starting in the Airport bars but take into consideration what<BR>
happens at bars and you get a better understanding what was going on back in<BR>
those days. My Army life started in 1969 and I served in Viet Nam various<BR>
times from 72 to 74 and I stayed in the Army until retirement in 1989. I<BR>
have talked to literally thousands of Viet vets and only one person said<BR>
that they had been spit at. Can anyone say Conspiracy Theory for events in<BR>
the news of the day. Yes there were thousands and thousands of people<BR>
against the war, myself included today and they demonstrated and marched<BR>
against the politicians, rarely against the soldier. The movie (taken<BR>
slightly out of context) that comes to mind is Forrest Gump when he is in DC<BR>
to get his MOH and he joins up with the marchers. He does have a little<BR>
hassle with one person BUT that was over a girl and not really the war<BR>
issue.<BR>
<BR>
Well that's my credit .02 on Viet Nam and I would really appreciate it if<BR>
people would quit starting "conversations" on subjects like war that they<BR>
have never seen nor ever been in. You will never understand the reasoning<BR>
behind someone else's participation nor can you appreciate the sacrifices<BR>
made by so many people on BOTH sides. Reading about it and pretending to do<BR>
it (training exercises) will never give that to you either.<BR>
<BR>
Can we drop the subject please, it actually has meaning to some<BR>
people.......<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
To: "'TML'" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 5:36 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Todd Glenn wrote:<BR>
> >In modern times, society at large is isolated by death, and the 'mere'<BR>
act<BR>
> >of killing, even in self-defense, is viewed as deeply morally wrong.  We<BR>
> >have huge numbers of protestors opposing the death penalty for even the<BR>
most<BR>
> >heinous of crimes.  Or society says, in effect, no-one, not even the most<BR>
> >craven, deserves to be killed. Vietnam veterans returning from war were<BR>
> >decried as 'baby-killers', not greeted as heroes and given parades.<BR>
><BR>
> A couple of things:<BR>
><BR>
> For Vietnam veterans: Replace "society" with "society as depicted by the<BR>
news<BR>
> media" and you'll be more accurate.  Not every American at the time had<BR>
feelings<BR>
> best expressed by standing at an airport and shouting obscenities at<BR>
returning<BR>
> soldiers,  but those were the Americans who were easiest to film.<BR>
><BR>
> As for the death penalty: huge, noisy and public is significant, but does<BR>
not<BR>
> in itself demonstrate a majority.  The election or defeat of politicians<BR>
who support<BR>
> the death penalty may be a better measure.<BR>
><BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:44:41 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Titan A.E. brief<BR>
<BR>
Anyone seen this yet? Good? Bad? Indifferent? Traveller-relatable?<BR>
<BR>
Keep the spoilers to a minimum please...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:59:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Vilani<BR>
<BR>
I like that - esp. the last bit by the officer<BR>
<BR>
I had failed to take into account the obvious Terrain bioweapons - of course<BR>
the Vilani would have no clue how to counter them at first.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Andrew<BR>
Moffatt-Vallance<BR>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 10:59 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Vilani<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 24 Jun 00, at 19:31, Tsykoduk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I never said that they were overly bright >:)<BR>
<BR>
> However, IMHO, IMTU this was a cultural thing for them. When they ran into<BR>
the<BR>
> terrains, they had never thought about taking prisoners (the bullet remark<BR>
was<BR>
> off the cuff. They would just not take them. You are wounded, too bad,<BR>
that is<BR>
> your problem. If you could not fight, you were ignored). If it is deeply<BR>
> rooted in the culture, then perhaps it is considered just part of war -<BR>
there<BR>
> was a remark a while ago about the difference between the Dark Ages<BR>
paradigm<BR>
> on death and our current one - this would be a similar case. They would<BR>
> literally not know any other way. More then likely it was a big shock when<BR>
the<BR>
> Terrains met them the first time - the look like us, they have very<BR>
similar<BR>
> genomes, but they think totally differently. More differently then other<BR>
> cultures on earth - so alien that at first it probably was so far out side<BR>
the<BR>
> box that we had a really tough time dealing with them<BR>
<BR>
As someone who has done a lot of work on the Interstellar Wars and is still<BR>
doing more, I thought I might chime in here. The Vilani reputation for<BR>
brutality and viciousness in war is much overstated in the 3rd Imperium.<BR>
During the Interstellar Wars period the major differences were that the<BR>
Vilani did not make any distinction between combatants and non-<BR>
combatants, and the level at which the Vilani would respect surrender.<BR>
Also, Vilani attitudes should be put into the context of a power that had<BR>
had thousands of years of total and overwhelming superiority over any<BR>
potential enemy.<BR>
<BR>
To the Vilani, War was something fought by an entire nation. To the Vilani<BR>
those who took care of the children of the workers who supported the war<BR>
effort were just as much involved in the war as the soldiers at the front.<BR>
And<BR>
therefore were just as legitimate a target. The children themselves would<BR>
grow to become part of the war effort and were therefore legitimate targets.<BR>
To put it simply, the Vilani viewed the entire society as contributing to<BR>
the<BR>
war effort, and therefore legitimate targets.<BR>
<BR>
Also the Vilani did accept and honour surrender. But that surrender would<BR>
have to be on their terms (which were always drawn up to prevent those<BR>
surrendering from ever being a threat again). Also to the Vilani, it matter<BR>
little if an individual soldier or platoon surrendered; but it did matter if<BR>
a<BR>
fleet, army or world surrendered. Terms offered to a "significant" force<BR>
would be respected as long as those who surrendered kept their end.<BR>
However, if the other side broke the terms, the Vilani had no hesitation in<BR>
making an example.<BR>
<BR>
> IMTU that is one of the big reasons for the nth Interstellar Wars starting<BR>
as<BR>
> well as continuing so long. It became a us or them after the first one. We<BR>
> were just kind of freaked out by the differences perhaps they nuked or<BR>
rocked<BR>
> a colony in the middle of nowhere. Weapons of Mass Destruction do not go<BR>
over<BR>
> well with terrains :)<BR>
<BR>
Actually the Interstellar Wars were suprisingly free of the use of WoMD in<BR>
terms of normal Vilani practice. Vilani intelligence identified very early<BR>
that<BR>
the Terrans had devastating bio-weapons for which the Vilani had no<BR>
counter. A kind of unspoken MAD developed, with neither side pushing the<BR>
other too far.<BR>
<BR>
> And we did not respond well to being 'put in our place'<BR>
<BR>
> In re the 3I's military out look:<BR>
> As the Solomani took the 1I by force, and replaced their military<BR>
structure, I<BR>
> would have to agree with Todd - probably had a Empathy 101 for all of the<BR>
> Vilani in gov't services. The 2I would have had to fight to over come the<BR>
> culture of cost effectiveness and the 3I inherited what ever mix the 2I<BR>
was<BR>
> able to instill.<BR>
<BR>
The 3rd Imperiums concepts of honour in war are entirely a Solomani<BR>
construct. This is a rough of a text I'm thinking of including in my IW work<BR>
to illustrate Vilani attitudes. Its the final statement of a Vilani Officer<BR>
convicted of War Crimes:<BR>
<BR>
"This is a farce. You say I am guilty of "War Crimes", that I am a murderer,<BR>
that I have no honour. By your terms war itself is a crime. The only crime<BR>
in<BR>
war is not to end it as quickly as possible. There is no murder in war, just<BR>
brutality and killing. It is however true that I am not an "honourable<BR>
warrior"<BR>
and I am glad of it. We Vilani find no honour or glory in killing and<BR>
brutalising; We leave that for barbarians. Do what you will, but this is<BR>
still a<BR>
farce and you will always be barbarians."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 09:15:43 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/25/00 5:36 AM, Walt Smith at smithw@hartwick.edu wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Todd Glenn wrote:<BR>
>> In modern times, society at large is isolated by death, and the 'mere' act<BR>
>> of killing, even in self-defense, is viewed as deeply morally wrong.  We<BR>
>> have huge numbers of protestors opposing the death penalty for even the most<BR>
>> heinous of crimes.  Or society says, in effect, no-one, not even the most<BR>
>> craven, deserves to be killed. Vietnam veterans returning from war were<BR>
>> decried as 'baby-killers', not greeted as heroes and given parades.<BR>
> <BR>
> A couple of things:<BR>
> <BR>
> For Vietnam veterans: Replace "society" with "society as depicted by the news<BR>
> media" and you'll be more accurate.  Not every American at the time had<BR>
> feelings <BR>
> best expressed by standing at an airport and shouting obscenities at returning<BR>
> soldiers,  but those were the Americans who were easiest to film.<BR>
> <BR>
> As for the death penalty: huge, noisy and public is significant, but does not<BR>
> in itself demonstrate a majority.  The election or defeat of politicians who<BR>
> support <BR>
> the death penalty may be a better measure.<BR>
> <BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
Hey Walt.  Howdy.<BR>
<BR>
Please note we are speaking of public perception, not necessarily reality.<BR>
Obviously the media has a great ability to skew perception by choosing what<BR>
it covers and how it covers it.  I always enjoy listening to the BBC and how<BR>
it reports world events vs. US media.  Sometime I wonder if they're both<BR>
reporting the same story!<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:24:19 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>>I've got experience in this. I ended up in a fight with a guy who had a<BR>
pretty big rep as a street-fighter once, and he managed to hit me four or<BR>
five times in the face, primarily because he attacked faster than I expected<BR>
and I was trying to avoid combat. All I got was a bleeding nose though and a<BR>
couple of bruises, none of those punches had any real effect on my combat<BR>
ability.<BR>
<BR>
I punched him twice, once in the stomach, and once just behind the ear while<BR>
he was leaning forward in reaction to the stomach punch and he went down. He<BR>
wasn't out, and got back up immediately, but he realized that I _could_ have<BR>
finished it while he was down, so he mouthed off a bit more, but basically<BR>
left without any more fighting.<<<<BR>
<BR>
One could argue that you basically had a higher degree of brawling skill<BR>
than him :)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I think we're getting hung up on one word: brawling. Had Trav<BR>
called it "unarmed combat," I don't think there would be an argument.<BR>
<BR>
FWIW, in my very humble and unscientific opinion, I think everything the<BR>
martial arts teach can be deduced from first priniciples, if you're talented<BR>
enough and have enough time and experience. Training is just a highly<BR>
effecient way to learn what to do and gain experience without (necessarily)<BR>
getting beat up constantly.<BR>
<BR>
The way I see it, if you can't throw as good a punch as some one else, it<BR>
means you're not as skilled in unarmed combat as him, not that you're<BR>
skilled in a less effecient form of combat. Anyway, given Traveller<BR>
abstraction, it's not really important to worry about it.<BR>
<BR>
Also, FWIW, I think using the "fencing" rule from T4 gives a pretty good,<BR>
semi-cinematic, simulation of martial arts without being overwhelmingly<BR>
offensive to reality. But I haven't playtested it that much, so YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Fred "Don't Hit!" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 09:28:10 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani<BR>
<BR>
on 6/24/00 2:21 PM, Hans Rancke-Madsen at rancke@diku.dk wrote:<BR>
> Hans Rancke<BR>
> University of Copenhagen<BR>
> rancke@diku.dk<BR>
> ------------<BR>
> 'There was a man,'  remarked Captain Eliot, 'who was sentenced<BR>
> to death for stealing a horse from a common. He said to the judge,<BR>
> that  he  thought it hard to be hanged for stealing a horse from a<BR>
> common  and  the  judge  answered,  "You  are not to be hanged for<BR>
> stealing  a  horse  from  a common,  but that others may not steal<BR>
> horses from commons." '<BR>
> 'And do you find,' asked Stephen, 'that in fact horses are not<BR>
> daily stolen from commons? You do not!'<BR>
> <BR>
> --- "The Mauritius Command" by Patrick O'Brian<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Patrick O'Brien.  Now I know that you are my kind of guy.<BR>
<BR>
I have always liked the idea of a technological navy with the attitudes of<BR>
the late 18th century. IMTU , naval and army officers, when capture, can<BR>
give their parole.  And in professional armies and navies of the past,<BR>
combatants often had more in common with each other than the societies they<BR>
protect.  I am reminded of Aubrey's time spent with Christie-Paliere (not<BR>
sure of the spelling).  Two officers of opposing forces who none the less<BR>
can share a fine meal and exchange pleasantries even while their nations are<BR>
at war.<BR>
<BR>
Given the Vilani attitude on war, this sort of interaction must be totally<BR>
unfathomable to them.  These terrans are totally imcomprehensible.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:14:25 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/25/00 9:24 AM, VonRammen at von_rammen@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> FWIW, in my very humble and unscientific opinion, I think everything the<BR>
> martial arts teach can be deduced from first priniciples, if you're talented<BR>
> enough and have enough time and experience. Training is just a highly<BR>
> effecient way to learn what to do and gain experience without (necessarily)<BR>
> getting beat up constantly.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure I completely agree.  I'll preface this with the adminssion that<BR>
I have not martial arts training outside of what they teach you in the army,<BR>
and what my wife has passed along to me from her law enforcement training. I<BR>
do have some experience of brawling gleaned from the days immediately after<BR>
I finished basic training (too much testosterone, not enough brains).<BR>
<BR>
I thinks strikes and kick can be deduced from experience.  However many<BR>
traps and control movements are not intuitive at all, but they are very<BR>
effective.  These depend on knowledge of human physiology and susceptibility<BR>
to leverage or other techniques.  Pain compliance holds are a great example.<BR>
Some of these can generate pain far out of proportion to the actual force<BR>
applied.  Every time my wife shows me a new one of these, I marvel that<BR>
something like this can be so effective<BR>
<BR>
> Fred "Don't Hit!" Ramen<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Just my $ .02<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:39:03 -0500<BR>
From: Pete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: IT Geeks<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:25:38 -0600, Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com><BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Tsykoduk wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Geez, how may people on this list are in IT/MIS?<BR>
><BR>
>NT, Oracle DBA, UNIX, LAN/WAN, Internet, and IT security.<BR>
<BR>
NT, Exchange, HP/UX, X.400, X.500, FORTEZZA, and Remedy<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"If a country is worth living in, it is worth fighting for."   -Manning Coles<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:08:08 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Frank Pitt wrote,<BR>
>I disagree. Anyone actually _trained_ to punch will be better at it than a<BR>
similar level of skill brawler who has never been taught to punch properly.<BR>
<BR>
Just remember, boxing and wrestling are martial arts too.<BR>
<BR>
Most RPG rules that specifiy a difference between "martial arts" and<BR>
"brawling" do so for this reason. It doesn't mean that a brawler can't punch<BR>
at all, but if he's never been taught to punch properly, his punches won't<BR>
be effective.<<BR>
<BR>
Which I would represent with different skill levels. My rant is against<BR>
using an entirely different system for "martial arts" vs. brawling. I fully<BR>
agree that boxing and wrestling are martial arts. The fact is, a lot of<BR>
games that use different systems don't recognize that.<BR>
<BR>
><grin> Actually, most martial arts styles and schools have been started for<BR>
exactly that reason, someone's instructor wouldn't let them do something, so<BR>
they left and started their own style.<<BR>
<BR>
Now to convince people who have watched too many movies of that.<BR>
<BR>
>Boxing, however, at least as far as I can tell, does not _teach_ you how to<BR>
kick, so it doesn't really "have it" any more. It was outlawed to make the<BR>
_sport_ of boxing more civilised.<BR>
<BR>
If going to a level that distinguishes martial arts from brawling, one<BR>
should probably also distinguish between "sport" styles and "real" styles.<<BR>
<BR>
Going back to this, I now point out a difference in physical conditioning.<BR>
Trained or not, would you want a heavyweight boxer in his prime trying to<BR>
score an field goal with your nether regions? As well, some street thug who<BR>
can press 300 is going to turn your face into must if he connects,<BR>
certificate of rank or not.<BR>
A decent system with recognized differences in stats and skill levels does<BR>
not need two systems for unarmed combat based solely on whether you went to<BR>
a school or trained with blind monks in the mountains for 30 years.<BR>
<BR>
>There is a lot of difference between training in silent killing or quick<BR>
take-downs, of the sort that our SAS are taught, and free-style sparring,<BR>
even that which the so-called "full contact" schools engage in.<<BR>
<BR>
Right, skill levels. And non-brawling skills like stealth.<BR>
<BR>
>"Brawling" is supposed to imply unscientific, largely untrained combat<BR>
skill.<BR>
I'd say any "Golden Gloves" champion should have the martial arts skill<BR>
instead.<<BR>
<BR>
Which is why I would definitely second Fred and say it should have been<BR>
called "Unarmed Combat".<BR>
<BR>
>However, I agree that the level of abstraction in Traveller makes such<BR>
distinctions largely meaningless.<<BR>
<BR>
And in most systems, hence my rant. :)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn write,<BR>
>I thinks strikes and kick can be deduced from experience.  However many<BR>
traps and control movements are not intuitive at all, but they are very<BR>
effective.  These depend on knowledge of human physiology and susceptibility<BR>
to leverage or other techniques.  Pain compliance holds are a great example.<BR>
Some of these can generate pain far out of proportion to the actual force<BR>
applied.  Every time my wife shows me a new one of these, I marvel that<BR>
something like this can be so effective<<BR>
<BR>
Professional opinions:<BR>
From my own experience, this is absolutely correct. However, from my own<BR>
experience and as told me by a Wushu system inheritor, locks and such are<BR>
incidental or accidental. You get lucky and manage to put one on or you<BR>
shift, he shifts and the lock is there by chance. The stuff you see in most<BR>
Judo, Jiu-jitsu, Aikido and such demonstrations or contests is almost solely<BR>
reserved for demonstrations and contests. Further, they are generally only<BR>
relevant in non-survival or law enforcement situations. You really don't<BR>
want to waste time putting an armbar on someone when someone else may be<BR>
trying to blow your brains out with a FGMP-15 or whack you with a cutlass.<BR>
(That's the ObTrav just in case. :))<BR>
And yes, they can be quite effective and quite nasty. My students remind of<BR>
that every time they try and flee when I say I have a new one to show out.<BR>
>:)<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2655<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, June 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2656<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: re : Jamming Meson Comms<BR>
Re: M1<BR>
Re: Prisoners<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2655<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: M1<BR>
What is canon<BR>
Portland TML Rendezvous<BR>
Re: IT Geeks<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
OT: IT Geeks<BR>
RE: What is canon<BR>
Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
Re: M1<BR>
RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
RE: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
RE: IT Geeks<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:41:38 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
on 6/24/00 11:08 PM, Matthew W. Helton at mwhelton@cox-internet.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> RE: Bullet construction; The French ARCANE ammunition of the early 80's used<BR>
> a solid copper bullet with a 45 degree ogive and a hollow base for superior<BR>
> penetration. Velocities were extremely high in .380 ACP, 9x19mm, .38<BR>
> special, .357 magnum, and .45 ACP.<BR>
<BR>
I have several example of the THV ammo.  The ogive is very strange, with a<BR>
little ball like tip and a changing radius ogive.  Goes through armor like<BR>
all get out though.  The rounds we made were solid copper with a stright 45<BR>
degree angle ogive.  We made them on a CNC lathe.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> The Safariland concealment vest is rated at NIJ Level IIa: It doesn't<BR>
> surprise me that a spitzer bullet would make it through. Some Low Velocity<BR>
> 9mm loads will as well.<BR>
> <BR>
> I am well aware that most sharp objects will not even be slowed by a bullet<BR>
> proof vest: they slip between the individual threads of the fabric.<BR>
> <BR>
> Penetration needs to be qualified: At what range? Most rifle rounds are NOT<BR>
> perfectly stabilized at the muzzle: they need time for aerodynamic braking<BR>
> to straighten them out. An 7.62mm NATO armor piercing round fired into a<BR>
> plate at 25 yards will have dramatically less penetration than the same<BR>
> round at 100 yards. A decent treatise of this can be read in Handloading<BR>
> Digest 1989 Edition. The author was able to to perforate steel plates at<BR>
> distances of up to 200 yards with a .220 swift and a .17-.22-250 "Improved"<BR>
> (Way overbore).<BR>
<BR>
Sure.  We were shooting plates at 100 yards.  My doubts were about<BR>
penetrating 3/4" steel.  I can't do this with my .458 win mag Whitworth<BR>
express rifle firing 500 gn monolithic solids in front of 72 gns of 4895.  I<BR>
tested this on Friday (my shoulder is still sore).  I did badly deform the<BR>
plate, and toss it backwards about 5 feet.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Slightly OT: This is why boat-tailed bullets aren't as accurate at shorter<BR>
> ranges (<200 yards) compared to flatbase bullets.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, the whole point is to reduce drag for improved long range performance.<BR>
> <BR>
> As far as the .22 Sabot round I described, I saw in an Guns and Ammo Circa<BR>
> 1994(?) I'm not totally sure: I can find out. It was mentioned right on the<BR>
> cover. I AM sure of the top velocity: 5,005 FPS. It was one of Bob Milek's<BR>
> last articles, as I recall. He was using pulled Remington Accelerator Sabots<BR>
> with 45 to 55 grain HP, FMJ and SP projos.<BR>
<BR>
I don't doubt you, but would be really interested in reading the article.<BR>
The theoretical limit of velocity for chemically powered projectiles is<BR>
around 6000 fps due to the limiting factor of the rate at which deflagrating<BR>
propellants can expand.<BR>
> <BR>
> I think you're right on the flechette thing: The shotgun flechettes were not<BR>
> individually machined like the rifle flechettes were: they were made of<BR>
> stamped steel, and there were a number of problems with the sabot and the<BR>
> loading pattern in the shells themselves. The "hooking" effect, from what I<BR>
> read, resulted in a fairly large wound, but with fairly superficial<BR>
> penetration. This was not exactly what they had in mind: good energy<BR>
> transfer, but they wanted more penetration. Steyr's flechette 5.56mm round<BR>
> was dropped because of excessive penetration, with not enough energy<BR>
> transfer during the OICW trials.<BR>
<BR>
Penetration of the SPIW was not trivial.  Typically about 4 to 6" (think<BR>
about the human torso).  Of course, in order to achieve this kind of<BR>
performance, the XM645 piston primer cartridge generated a chamber pressure<BR>
of about 70,000 psi in less than 0.5 milliseconds.  The Stey ACR (which<BR>
looks really cool, I use a picture of it to represent a gauss rifle) was no<BR>
where close to these pressures or velocities.  To make a flechette really<BR>
lethal, you need to push the velocity above the 'magic' 1450 m/s (the speed<BR>
of sound in tissue).<BR>
<BR>
With regard to shotgun flechette, check out the AAI SCMITR shotgun<BR>
flechette.  I have a photo on my trav weapons site<BR>
(http://weapons.travellercentral.com).  A very effective design that<BR>
corrects the shortcomings of the typical shotgun flechette.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, Whirlpool and Olin used nail making machines to manufacture shotgun<BR>
flechettes, not stamping dies (OK, I'm being anal now).<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Ezell's books are the best, but remeber to take them in the context of when<BR>
> they were written: The "ballistic zeitgeist" has changed dramatically over<BR>
> the last 10-25 years. It seems to run in five year cycles. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
True.  Of course much of the trends in firearms design are nothing more than<BR>
fashion.  Ther are a lot of brilliant and effective designs from the 50s and<BR>
60s that are superior to stuff that's being floated today.<BR>
<BR>
I'm glad to see fellow enthusiasts on this list.  If you're ever feeling<BR>
bored, I invite you to critiques or better yet submit weapons for my<BR>
traveller gun site (The Mercenary's Guide to Weapons<BR>
http://weapons.travellercentral.com)<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:41:58 +0800<BR>
From: Nattrass <wulfren@iinet.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: re : Jamming Meson Comms<BR>
<BR>
>> I would think that a continual (but relatively low-power) stream of<BR>
>> decaying mesons on the receiving ship might at least degrade reception.<BR>
<BR>
if your gonna go to that extent, ie: specialised targeting equipment and a<BR>
good sensor/communication operator, why not just invest in a bigger meson<BR>
gun, and a gunner?<BR>
In my talons I shape clay.....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:53:06 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: M1<BR>
<BR>
> Much has been made of the M1's Enbloc clip ejection noise: was the enemy<BR>
>  ever close enough to discern this shortcoming over the din of combat?<BR>
<BR>
I am unaware of any such episode, but the literature is full of soldiers <BR>
complaining about it. I suppose "Stay close to a buddy and try not to run out <BR>
at the same time" was the official answer.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:53:13 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Prisoners<BR>
<BR>
> Killing prisoners is just plain stupid.  Anybody read about Malmedy?  During<BR>
>  the battle of the bulge, word went 'round the US forces that the Germans<BR>
>  were shooting prisoners.  Just about every decided not to surrender.<BR>
<BR>
It is interesting to compare the different approaches (especially over time) <BR>
on the eastern and western fronts of the ETO. And the ETO with the PTO.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:56:49 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2655<BR>
<BR>
> > Geez, how may people on this list are in IT/MIS?<BR>
<BR>
Not it.    )<BR>
<BR>
I barely know what the acronym means.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:01:52 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/25/00 11:08 AM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn write,<BR>
>> I thinks strikes and kick can be deduced from experience.  However many<BR>
> traps and control movements are not intuitive at all, but they are very<BR>
> effective.  These depend on knowledge of human physiology and susceptibility<BR>
> to leverage or other techniques.  Pain compliance holds are a great example.<BR>
> Some of these can generate pain far out of proportion to the actual force<BR>
> applied.  Every time my wife shows me a new one of these, I marvel that<BR>
> something like this can be so effective<<BR>
> <BR>
> Professional opinions:<BR>
> From my own experience, this is absolutely correct. However, from my own<BR>
> experience and as told me by a Wushu system inheritor, locks and such are<BR>
> incidental or accidental. You get lucky and manage to put one on or you<BR>
> shift, he shifts and the lock is there by chance. The stuff you see in most<BR>
> Judo, Jiu-jitsu, Aikido and such demonstrations or contests is almost solely<BR>
> reserved for demonstrations and contests. Further, they are generally only<BR>
> relevant in non-survival or law enforcement situations. You really don't<BR>
> want to waste time putting an armbar on someone when someone else may be<BR>
> trying to blow your brains out with a FGMP-15 or whack you with a cutlass.<BR>
> (That's the ObTrav just in case. :))<BR>
> And yes, they can be quite effective and quite nasty. My students remind of<BR>
> that every time they try and flee when I say I have a new one to show out.<BR>
>> :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
Well, I did say she was in law enforcement.<BR>
<BR>
Just out of curiosity, what style do you teach?<BR>
<BR>
I've long been of the opinion that street fighters and boxers are better<BR>
prepared for actual HTH combat than the vast majority of marshal artists.<BR>
The difference being that in boxing, you actually get hit, and hit the other<BR>
person.<BR>
<BR>
This was something that was brought home to me in the half dozen actual<BR>
fights I was in right after I returned home from basic training (18 years<BR>
old, too much testosterone, not enough brains).  Knowing what its like to be<BR>
hit (and continuing to fight) as well as knowing what it's like to actually<BR>
hit someone (not dojo sport fighting, serious beat the crap out of the other<BR>
guy stuff) makes a huge difference.  I vividly remember one person who<BR>
assuming some sort of stance (possibly just BS) before I hit him with an<BR>
ashtray.<BR>
<BR>
Of course I also remember vividly having someone knock me to the ground and<BR>
try to stomp my chest flat with his boot.  It was just after this reminder<BR>
of my mortality that I came to my senses and discontinued my very short<BR>
career as a brawler.<BR>
<BR>
It's interesting to note that self defense classes like Model Mugging place<BR>
an emphasis on realism and actually hitting their (heavily padded and<BR>
trained) attackers with full power blows.<BR>
<BR>
These days I rely on a couple of techniques from my wife and the fact that I<BR>
ALWAYS carry at least one gun.<BR>
<BR>
"Old age and treachery will beat youth and skill every time"<BR>
<BR>
Tod "I know karate, judo and many other Japanese words" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:10:58 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: M1<BR>
<BR>
on 6/25/00 11:53 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Much has been made of the M1's Enbloc clip ejection noise: was the enemy<BR>
>> ever close enough to discern this shortcoming over the din of combat?<BR>
> <BR>
> I am unaware of any such episode, but the literature is full of soldiers<BR>
> complaining about it. I suppose "Stay close to a buddy and try not to run out<BR>
> at the same time" was the official answer.<BR>
> <BR>
> LKW<BR>
> <BR>
I think this is highly overrated.  Try this.  Go to the gun range, take off<BR>
you hearing protection and fire 8 rounds from a Garand.  Let me know if you<BR>
notice the clip noise.<BR>
<BR>
This makes me think of all those movies scenes where there is a gun fight,<BR>
dozens of rounds are fired in some room, warehouse or parking garage, and<BR>
one of the combatants runs out of ammo, the other hears the click of the<BR>
hammer falling on an empty chamber.  Have any of these writers ever tried<BR>
this.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, what happens is something like this:<BR>
<BR>
Players pursuing bad guy into starport docking bay (think big metal room).<BR>
<BR>
"There he is!"<BR>
Blam, blam, blammety blammety blametty ba-blam.<BR>
<BR>
"Did I get him?"<BR>
"WHAT?"<BR>
"Did I GET HIM?"<BR>
"Stop shooting man, YOU GOT HIM"<BR>
"WHAT?"<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:17:11 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
OK, this keeps coming up and it's really starting to bug me.<BR>
<BR>
What makes something 'canon'?<BR>
<BR>
I often find that IMTU things are not canon. OK, I've only been playing<BR>
since 77 or 78, spending all that time with CT carefully building a<BR>
universe, so what do I know.  So who decides?  Does publication grant<BR>
canonical status?  Or does it requires the blessing of MM.<BR>
<BR>
Inquiring minds want to know!<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:20:43 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Portland TML Rendezvous<BR>
<BR>
Having noted that we have quite a few Portland area residents represented on<BR>
the TML, my wife and are curious.  Would anyone be interested in attending<BR>
'Meet and Greet' for Portland TMLers and their friends/fellow gamers?<BR>
<BR>
We are toying with the idea of getting a suite down town for a social<BR>
gathering and maybe some gaming.<BR>
<BR>
If you are interested, even vaguely, send email to me at the address below.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:20:44 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Thing <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: Re: IT Geeks<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> >NT, Oracle DBA, UNIX, LAN/WAN, Internet, and IT security.<BR>
> <BR>
> NT, Exchange, HP/UX, X.400, X.500, FORTEZZA, and Remedy<BR>
<BR>
I guess I'' chime in.<BR>
<BR>
NT, Exchange, Novell, Unix, SQL, C/C++, MFC, VB, ISAPI, ASP, HTML &<BR>
others. <BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
Thing under the stairs,<BR>
Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
===========================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 15:19:15 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote,<BR>
>Well, I did say she was in law enforcement.<<BR>
<BR>
Yes you did. And they have a lot of restrictions on what they can do.<BR>
<BR>
>Just out of curiosity, what style do you teach?<<BR>
<BR>
Okinawan Karate, Isshin Ryu.<BR>
<BR>
>I've long been of the opinion that street fighters and boxers are better<BR>
prepared for actual HTH combat than the vast majority of marshal artists.<BR>
The difference being that in boxing, you actually get hit, and hit the other<BR>
person.<<BR>
<BR>
To a point. I train people to never be hit, so taking a shot is not as<BR>
relevant. However, I would put the difference as those people fight for<BR>
their dinner, most martial artists rarely do so.<BR>
<BR>
>This was something that was brought home to me in the half dozen actual<BR>
fights I was in right after I returned home from basic training (18 years<BR>
old, too much testosterone, not enough brains).  Knowing what its like to be<BR>
hit (and continuing to fight) as well as knowing what it's like to actually<BR>
hit someone (not dojo sport fighting, serious beat the crap out of the other<BR>
guy stuff) makes a huge difference.  I vividly remember one person who<BR>
assuming some sort of stance (possibly just BS) before I hit him with an<BR>
ashtray.<<BR>
<BR>
Yes.<BR>
<BR>
>Of course I also remember vividly having someone knock me to the ground and<BR>
try to stomp my chest flat with his boot.  It was just after this reminder<BR>
of my mortality that I came to my senses and discontinued my very short<BR>
career as a brawler<<BR>
<BR>
Yes again.<BR>
<BR>
>It's interesting to note that self defense classes like Model Mugging place<BR>
an emphasis on realism and actually hitting their (heavily padded and<BR>
trained) attackers with full power blows.<<BR>
<BR>
Personal opinion at odds with other professionals:<BR>
That isn't very real. How many muggers wear extensive padding? How may times<BR>
have you hit someone in the bare face with a bare fist and not felt the pain<BR>
of bones breaking or coming close to breaking? Realism would be beating up<BR>
sides of beef like Rocky, clawing the eyeballs of sheep heads, breaking leg<BR>
bones and the like. Not smacking around someone in enough padding for 10<BR>
beds who really won't smack you in the head and grab you in an totally<BR>
offensive manner at the drop of a hat.<BR>
Also, most of those classes seem determined to teach moves that require the<BR>
most time and effort to become proficient at rather than those that require<BR>
the least. I would never ask someone to learn a hip throw in 10 sessions or<BR>
less. But that's me.<BR>
<BR>
>"Old age and treachery will beat youth and skill every time"<<BR>
<BR>
That's what I always say.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Errrr...let me think a bit.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 15:43:06 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
<BR>
Thom,<BR>
<BR>
I apologize if my comments offended you, but in my opinion military history is for <BR>
*everyone*, if a country is to have a military that's worth anything.  Where are<BR>
sons and daughters willing to serve going to come from otherwise?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 15:50:23 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: OT: IT Geeks<BR>
<BR>
Umm...<BR>
<BR>
They pay me money to be an IT Geek, but I only have a couple handfuls of <BR>
acronyms on my resume.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
Email admin, system manager, R&D, public lab manager, web resources,<BR>
system analyst, programmer, domain admin, account manager, whatever other <BR>
hat doesn't currently have a head in it...the joys of being IT in a small organization, <BR>
when the prez has lots of big ideas. <G><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 21:05:38 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glen wrote:<BR>
> What makes something 'canon'?<BR>
<BR>
Geez!  Okay, here's my understanding: the short  answer  is  that<BR>
anything published is canon.  But ...<BR>
<BR>
- - GDW once ruled that anything in JTAS/Challenge magazine was not<BR>
  canon  but  an  official  variant.  However,  this  is  usually<BR>
  ignored and JTAS/Challenge material is generally considered  to<BR>
  be canon.<BR>
<BR>
- - Canon status has been removed from some non-GDW  products  (ie.<BR>
  anything by Paranoia Press  or  Judges  Guild).  Other  non-GDW<BR>
  material is debatable  ...  Imperium  Games  products  are,  in<BR>
  general, considered canon.<BR>
<BR>
- - GURPS: Traveller is an official  variant  ...  as  such  it  is<BR>
  *technically* not canonical.  However (a) many GURPS  fans  may<BR>
  consider GT material to  be  canon,  (b)  there  is  a  lot  of<BR>
  compatible and useful  material  which  non-GURPS  fans  should<BR>
  consider using in their TUs.  It is perhaps best to think of GT<BR>
  as having a parallel canon of its own with common roots.<BR>
<BR>
- - Within  the  body   of   Traveller   canon   there   are   many<BR>
  contradictions ... leading to canon wars on the TML.  The first<BR>
  *great* schism was the introduction of  TNE,  GT  *could*  have<BR>
  caused another  great  schism  (but  at  the  moment  relations<BR>
  between the two camps are cordial).<BR>
<BR>
You  can  think  of  Traveller  canon  as  being  a  bit   *like*<BR>
Christianity's canon ... there are (passionate) disagreements and<BR>
differences between different denominations, but there is  a  lot<BR>
of commonality as well.<BR>
<BR>
(And, just like religion, this can be a touchy subject ... so I'm<BR>
off to put on some asbestos underwear.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 16:29:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
<BR>
No offense taken Walt. I just now realized that I was using your post as the<BR>
vehicle to post my comments, sorry about that. They weren't aimed at anyone<BR>
at all to be honest. I was stating my opinion concerning the "times" and how<BR>
they seem distorted to me today. I was specifically pointing out that unless<BR>
you were there (I don't mean Viet Nam specifically, I'm using "there"<BR>
generically) you will never know the real truth of what happened. I have<BR>
been "there" on several occasions and my memories certainly don't jive with<BR>
present day accountings. You can't always believe everything you read and<BR>
news clips can certainly be presented out of context to skew people's views<BR>
of what happened. In the case we were using, Vietnam Vets getting spat on,<BR>
I'm sure that it happened a number of times. This is especially true if the<BR>
situation was rigged to put the two different factions together at the wrong<BR>
time. Most Viet Nam Vets that I know have come to the conclusion that what<BR>
happened there was wrong but they were not necessarily involved in the<BR>
actions brought to light. Hell most of the people there were your next door<BR>
neighbors, your cousins, your brothers, high school buddies, etc. "Hippies"<BR>
(I use the term lightly) filmed spitting at guys in uniform were I'm sure<BR>
"egged on" before the GI's even showed up. We'll never know the full truth<BR>
about the thought processes news men used to put those shots on the late<BR>
news. I still believe it was politically motivated even when its repeated in<BR>
history shows today. It certainly didn't happen that often that I can<BR>
remember and its a crying shame that its remembered in the context its used<BR>
in today. There was a lot of animosity about the war no matter what side you<BR>
were on. I was 20 (a month before my 21st birthday) when I went over the<BR>
first time and I thought I was a walking hero just waiting to happen. I seem<BR>
to remember that I thought I was invulnerable too. My second and subsequent<BR>
trips I was scared shitless and I prayed that the president would stop the<BR>
war (or non-war depending on your perspective) and get my ass out of there.<BR>
I guess things are never what they seem.<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Walt Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
To: "'TML'" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 12:43 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Thom,<BR>
><BR>
> I apologize if my comments offended you, but in my opinion military<BR>
history is for<BR>
> *everyone*, if a country is to have a military that's worth anything.<BR>
Where are<BR>
> sons and daughters willing to serve going to come from otherwise?<BR>
><BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:20:34 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Marine cutlass<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 22:53 -0400 24/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>> > URL perchance?<BR>
>><BR>
>>Don't we all wish.  The battered partial copy I had of ALCLAD was on loan<BR>
>>from a friend.  I need to file a FOIA to get a full copy, since I don't<BR>
>>think it's ever been published in the non-military community.<BR>
><BR>
> FOIA - Freedom of Information ????  (This is were living in the UK is <BR>
> really leaving me out of this) ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Freedom of Information Act.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:52:32<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: M1<BR>
<BR>
At 02:53 PM 6/25/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
>> Much has been made of the M1's Enbloc clip ejection noise: was the enemy<BR>
>>  ever close enough to discern this shortcoming over the din of combat?<BR>
><BR>
>I am unaware of any such episode, but the literature is full of soldiers <BR>
>complaining about it. I suppose "Stay close to a buddy and try not to run <BR>
>out at the same time" was the official answer.<BR>
<BR>
Some troops in the 101st discovered that a spring made a very similar<BR>
noise, and used it to lure Germans out into the open.  They'd thimb the<BR>
spring a couple of times in succession, giving the impression that three or<BR>
four Amis had just run out of ammo.  The Germans would come up, and *bang.*<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:05:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Hehehe<BR>
<BR>
I had a M/A teacher many many moons ago who demonstrated something to us<BR>
young punks<BR>
<BR>
He lined us all up, and posed the question:<BR>
<BR>
"What is the most effective street fighting style?" (this was at a dojo that<BR>
had several masters of different arts all teaching - very cool).<BR>
Several of us chirped up different arts (Escrima, Thai Kick Boxing, Kenjitsu<BR>
(I always wondered about that one), Judo, etc.. running the gamit of arts.<BR>
He replied - "Nope you are all wrong", and pulled out a 12' rubber band gun<BR>
"12 gauge sawed off shotgun wins every time".<BR>
<BR>
He then took us on, 2 or three at a time, and shot the heck out of use with<BR>
the rubber band gun.<BR>
<BR>
Humbling experience. :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>><BR>
These days I rely on a couple of techniques from my wife and the fact that I<BR>
ALWAYS carry at least one gun.<BR>
<BR>
"Old age and treachery will beat youth and skill every time"<BR>
<BR>
Tod "I know karate, judo and many other Japanese words" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:05:29 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
<BR>
>For Vietnam veterans: Replace "society" with "society as depicted by the<BR>
news<BR>
>media" and you'll be more accurate.  Not every American at the time had<BR>
feelings<BR>
>best expressed by standing at an airport and shouting obscenities at<BR>
returning<BR>
>soldiers,  but those were the Americans who were easiest to film.<BR>
<BR>
The original statement which Tod made was much more accurate than your<BR>
revised version. What's interesting, and please do not take this as a<BR>
defense of the "media", is that such Americans weren't particularly easy to<BR>
film as they didn't show up frequently on television or in the newspapers.<BR>
More importantly, there were a lot more ingredients in the stew. There is a<BR>
huge body of anecdotal evidence by individual Vietnam veterans which points<BR>
to an unpleasant homecoming, and this homecoming is not typified by folks<BR>
"standing at an airport and shouting obscenities at returning soldiers".<BR>
Indeed, most of these cases were kept alive by individual veterans who<BR>
shared their experiences with other veterans. It wasn't until after the war<BR>
that the news media and scholars took a real interest in such stories. These<BR>
instances were terrible and disgraceful, but they are just the tip of the<BR>
iceberg.<BR>
<BR>
Vietnam vets found a host of problems upon returning home. Many sought<BR>
support in organizations such as the Veterans of Foreign Wars and the<BR>
American Legion, and in many cases found barriers raised, in general because<BR>
the World War II generation looked down on the returning vets because they<BR>
were losing the war and didn't know how to fight. The veterans were looked<BR>
down upon by their peers, who hadn't fought in the war, because they were<BR>
seen as rapists, murderers and savages. Credit was very hard to come by for<BR>
many vets after the war, and finding and holding jobs was difficult which<BR>
compounded financial problems. Internecine warfare in the Veterans'<BR>
Administration frequently meant that Vietnam vets lost out on benefits which<BR>
should have been given to them.<BR>
<BR>
All of this was compounded by the movies, which frequently stereotyped<BR>
returning vets as ticking time-bombs, just waiting to explode. Vietnam vets<BR>
were frequently shown in the crime dramas of the day as petty criminals, or<BR>
specialists who were not averse to engaging in robbery and murder. When the<BR>
Vietnam veteran was not being show as a criminal or psychopath, he was<BR>
painted as pitiful, a physically or emotionally crippled man.<BR>
<BR>
In addition, another stereotype began to take shape, unrelated to the film<BR>
portrayals: Vietnam vets were "dumb", either because they were not able to<BR>
get a deferment or dodge the draft, or they consciously decided that they<BR>
wanted to serve in the armed forces.<BR>
<BR>
There was also the fact that for the most part many returning veterans<BR>
weren't yet 21 upon returning from the war. In many cases they were treated<BR>
as "children" by adult society, they couldn't go to a bar and order a drink<BR>
or even vote.<BR>
<BR>
In short, what I'm trying to say is that, while it's "easy" to point the<BR>
blame at the news media for painting a picture of hardcore spitting<BR>
resistance, which they didn't really, it is certainly true that many vets<BR>
faced distrust, insults and hardships at home which were directly related to<BR>
the fact that they served in Vietnam. Some of this distrust and some of the<BR>
insults appeared in the quarters of those who were banging their fists on<BR>
the table for American involvement in Vietnam. Indeed, those vets who took a<BR>
stance against the war frequently found themselves demeaned by politicians,<BR>
such as Spiro Agnew who questioned their masculinity.<BR>
<BR>
All in all, I think that it's safe to say that society did not welcome vets<BR>
back with open arms. I'm not saying that every single man, woman and child<BR>
at home hated the returning Vietnam veterans, nor that everybody who was<BR>
"for" the war in Vietnam distrusted or abused soldiers, nor that everybody<BR>
who was "against" the war in Vietnam distrusted or abused soldiers.<BR>
<BR>
That's all I'm going to say on the subject, even in private mail.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:08:06 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: IT Geeks<BR>
<BR>
Thing wrote:<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > NT, Oracle DBA, UNIX, LAN/WAN, Internet, and IT security.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > NT, Exchange, HP/UX, X.400, X.500, FORTEZZA, and Remedy<BR>
><BR>
> I guess I" chime in.<BR>
><BR>
> NT, Exchange, Novell, Unix, SQL, C/C++, MFC, VB, ISAPI, ASP,<BR>
> HTML & others.<BR>
<BR>
Here's my entry into "what's my resume":<BR>
<BR>
Hardware: DEC Alpha, DEC VAX-11, DEC PDP-11, IBM 3090, MDISL<BR>
  Sequoia M9420 & M9430, various PCs<BR>
<BR>
Operating Systems: Open/VMS, VMS, Unix, TSO, RT-11, PICK, DOS,<BR>
  Win95, WinNT<BR>
<BR>
File Systems: RMS, RDB (RDO and SQL)<BR>
<BR>
4GL: Powerhouse, ALL (Pro-IV variant)<BR>
<BR>
3GL: COBOL, DCL, Pascal, Data/BASIC, RatFor, PROC, Batch,<BR>
  GW-BASIC<BR>
<BR>
2GL: Macro-11<BR>
<BR>
(also HTML, building Intel PCs and home LANs, and learning Linux)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2656<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2657</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, June 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2657<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: What is canon<BR>
Re: What is canon<BR>
Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: What is canon<BR>
Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Perl Traveller Module<BR>
Perl Traveller Module - Examples<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:59:56 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/25/00 12:19 PM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Personal opinion at odds with other professionals:<BR>
> That isn't very real. How many muggers wear extensive padding? How may times<BR>
> have you hit someone in the bare face with a bare fist and not felt the pain<BR>
> of bones breaking or coming close to breaking? Realism would be beating up<BR>
> sides of beef like Rocky, clawing the eyeballs of sheep heads, breaking leg<BR>
> bones and the like. Not smacking around someone in enough padding for 10<BR>
> beds who really won't smack you in the head and grab you in an totally<BR>
> offensive manner at the drop of a hat.<BR>
> Also, most of those classes seem determined to teach moves that require the<BR>
> most time and effort to become proficient at rather than those that require<BR>
> the least. I would never ask someone to learn a hip throw in 10 sessions or<BR>
> less. But that's me.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the moves that my wife was taught were very simple strikes and<BR>
such.  I watched the class graduation, and can still remember (and could<BR>
repeat) the techniques taught 10 years after the fact, with no practice or<BR>
refresher taining.  Yes, the attackers wore padding. However, hitting a<BR>
padded 'mugger' with full power blows is still a better training technique<BR>
IMHO than the kind of choreographed moves I've watched in several dojos.<BR>
And the 'muggers' were all highly competent marshal artists themselves who<BR>
were instructed to continue attacking until they had received several what<BR>
they considered 'disabling' blows.<BR>
<BR>
All of the students with the exception of my wife had been victims of sexual<BR>
or other physical attacks, and the muggers put a lot of realism into their<BR>
assaults (to the point that my wife commented that many of the students were<BR>
brought to tears recalling their previous real assaults).  The point was<BR>
they were taught to overcome their emotional paralysis and to fight hard and<BR>
to fight to win. I saw the bruises one of the 'muggers' had despite the<BR>
suit.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, that is no experience for the real thing.  But it is very hard to get<BR>
that kind of experience, even in the dojo with a really good instructor.<BR>
Remember that Model Mugging was founded by a martial artist after a close<BR>
female friend, who was also the California women's karate champion, was the<BR>
victim of a rape.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Ok,I don't know, although I think martial arts are highly oversold<BR>
in terms of their effectiveness, particularly in RPGs.  I know that's part<BR>
of the fun, but let's not try to pass it off as anything approaching<BR>
reality.  Real, serious HTH combat rarely lasts very long.  In my brawling<BR>
days, I can't recall any fight I participated in ever lasting more than a<BR>
few blows.  Of course, we were young, tough and trained to fight the army<BR>
way (i.e. fight dirty--the only rule is win.  Hey, just like a real fight).<BR>
<BR>
I CAN tell you for a fact that, unlike TV, beer mugs rarely break on<BR>
people's heads, and when you hit someone in the face with a big glass bar<BR>
ashtray, they drop like a stone.  And as I mentioned before, when someone<BR>
stomps on your chest 5 or 6 times with a big boot, you don't spring up and<BR>
take the other guy out with a leg sweep or something.  What really happens<BR>
is that your friends take you to the hospital, and then you spend the next<BR>
few day in bed hoping for death.  And the next few weeks lamenting your<BR>
youthful stupidity.  And you never, ever START another fight again.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "three broken ribs, but smarter now" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
almost being stomped to death."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:29:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> OK, this keeps coming up and it's really starting to bug me.<BR>
><BR>
> What makes something 'canon'?<BR>
><BR>
> I often find that IMTU things are not canon. OK, I've only been playing<BR>
> since 77 or 78, spending all that time with CT carefully building a<BR>
> universe, so what do I know.  So who decides?  Does publication grant<BR>
> canonical status?  Or does it requires the blessing of MM.<BR>
<BR>
"Canon" is roughly the same as "official". So if it was published in<BR>
something that hasn't later been declared "unofficial" it's canon. <BR>
<BR>
For example, the old Alien Modules are canon, but many of the non-GDW<BR>
sector booklets *aren't*. Mosty notably the 4 Judge's Guild sectors.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:32:53 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> You  can  think  of  Traveller  canon  as  being  a  bit   *like*<BR>
> Christianity's canon ... there are (passionate) disagreements and<BR>
> differences between different denominations, but there is  a  lot<BR>
> of commonality as well.<BR>
><BR>
> (And, just like religion, this can be a touchy subject ... so I'm<BR>
> off to put on some asbestos underwear.)<BR>
<BR>
Please, use Nomex instead. We wouldn't want you getting cancer of<BR>
anything important. :-)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 15:29:45 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/24/00 4:29 PM, Thom Harris at thomharr@mediaone.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> in today. There was a lot of animosity about the war no matter what side you<BR>
> were on. I was 20 (a month before my 21st birthday) when I went over the<BR>
> first time and I thought I was a walking hero just waiting to happen. I seem<BR>
> to remember that I thought I was invulnerable too. My second and subsequent<BR>
> trips I was scared shitless and I prayed that the president would stop the<BR>
> war (or non-war depending on your perspective) and get my ass out of there.<BR>
> I guess things are never what they seem.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Thanks Thom,<BR>
<BR>
Every generation needs the collective memory of those who've "been and done"<BR>
so that we don't start looking at war with the idea that it's all a great<BR>
adventure.  Although I have not 'see the elephant' I do recall the attitude<BR>
the public seemed to have about the military when I went on my government<BR>
vacation down at Ft. Benning.  This was 1980, when we thought we were all<BR>
going to Iran.  My fellow trainees (11B) were mostly what would be<BR>
considered the 'dregs of society' because you only went into the service if<BR>
you couldn't get a real job, according to my friends.<BR>
<BR>
My best friend and I were their because we loved our country, and we had<BR>
both been brought up to believe that service to one's country was a noble<BR>
calling (IT IS, Dammit!).  Most of our NCOs had served a tour in Vietnam,<BR>
and so had several of our fellow trainees (we had 2 paratroopers who were<BR>
getting back in before they got too old.  Very strange to have a fellow PFC<BR>
with a CIB).  Our country's attitude about the military has changed<BR>
dramatically, post Reagan and post Desert Storm.<BR>
<BR>
Since I was the one who originally made the "spitting on soldiers" comment,<BR>
I'll admit that I haven't actually met anyone who was spit on.  I do recall<BR>
a friend who lost an arm to AAA as a helicopter pilot telling me about<BR>
returning home.  His younger sister and friends were all in college and<BR>
heavily into the anti-war thing.  According to Ron, one of his sisters<BR>
friends, on learning he'd lost the arm over seas said something to the<BR>
effect of "Serves you right".  Ron relates that he pretty much 'lost it' and<BR>
proceeded to beat the crap out of they guy (I should mention that Ron is not<BR>
a big man).  When the police arrived, they were not inclined press charges<BR>
against a lttle one-armed guy who beat the tar out of a big strapping<BR>
'hippie'.  Ron also told me that a few years ago his sister apologized for<BR>
being a jerk.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose I mention this only because Ron is someone I admire.  And the idea<BR>
that anyone like him could have been treated so shabbily is, to me,<BR>
indecent.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  What is the public attitude toward returning veterans?  Since the<BR>
FFW has been described here as political maneuvering with fleets, how do the<BR>
citizenry feel about the war (you know, the ones who lose the sons and<BR>
daughters)?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from the example of brave men and<BR>
women who served their country in peace and in war."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:47:10 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Tsykoduk wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> "What is the most effective street fighting style?" (this was at a dojo that<BR>
> had several masters of different arts all teaching - very cool).<BR>
> Several of us chirped up different arts (Escrima, Thai Kick Boxing, Kenjitsu<BR>
> (I always wondered about that one)<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
As long-time TMLers know, Kenjitsu is the Way of the Sayat. <g, d, &r><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 00:10:17 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "John Groth" <wombat@premier.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 11:47 PM<BR>
Subject: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Tsykoduk wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
> ><BR>
> > "What is the most effective street fighting style?" (this was at a dojo<BR>
that<BR>
> > had several masters of different arts all teaching - very cool).<BR>
> > Several of us chirped up different arts (Escrima, Thai Kick Boxing,<BR>
Kenjitsu<BR>
> > (I always wondered about that one)<BR>
><BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
><BR>
> As long-time TMLers know, Kenjitsu is the Way of the Sayat. <g, d, &r><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Is that related to the "Way of the Exploding Planet"?<BR>
<BR>
Or is that the Way of the Spofulam... Ditzijutsu!<BR>
<BR>
<whistles nonchalantly...><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:21:38 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
From: Matthew Bond <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
>Is that related to the "Way of the Exploding Planet"?<BR>
><BR>
>Or is that the Way of the Spofulam... Ditzijutsu!<BR>
><BR>
><whistles nonchalantly...><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Never joke about the Spofulam.  Never.  You never know when she will<BR>
appear.  Hey, isn't that Ditzi right behind you?<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:23:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
<BR>
>"Canon" is roughly the same as "official". So if it was published in<BR>
>something that hasn't later been declared "unofficial" it's canon.<BR>
><BR>
>For example, the old Alien Modules are canon, but many of the non-GDW<BR>
>sector booklets *aren't*. Mosty notably the 4 Judge's Guild sectors.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Which I think are the best four sectors put out for Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:04:03 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> From: Matthew Bond <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
> <BR>
> >Is that related to the "Way of the Exploding Planet"?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Or is that the Way of the Spofulam... Ditzijutsu!<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><whistles nonchalantly...><BR>
> <BR>
>     Never joke about the Spofulam.  Never.  You never know when she will<BR>
> appear.  Hey, isn't that Ditzi right behind you?<BR>
<BR>
The proper way to present that, sir, is to post as follows:<BR>
<BR>
"Hey, isn't that Ditzie right behind you?" [note proper spelling<BR>
"Ditzie"], followed by:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm<BR>
<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/baycon_2000.htm<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:17:43 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Perl Traveller Module<BR>
<BR>
Moin Gurus,<BR>
<BR>
  I now have a fresh version of my Games::Traveller Perl Module.<BR>
<BR>
  I'm currently working on the shipyard. I'm implementing the<BR>
  shipyard as a PerlSAX filter processing XML to produce HTML.<BR>
  Feature of this version, is that its the first version, that<BR>
  sums up values, that may be included from other XML files.<BR>
<BR>
  This module will become published on CPAN and Debian, once it<BR>
  conformes enough to the Perl coding standard and provides a<BR>
  usefull subset of FFS.<BR>
<BR>
  If you are intererested in Perl take a look at :<BR>
<BR>
     ftp://ftp.copyleft.de/pub/project/traveller/Games-Traveller-0.??.tar.gz<BR>
  or http://www.copyleft.de/pub/project/traveller/Games-Traveller-0.??.tar.gz<BR>
<BR>
  The version should build clean on any Unix and NT system, but I've only<BR>
  tested it on the Debian-GNU-Linux-i686 combination. People who are using<BR>
  NT and Perl or RedHat and Perl, should take a close look on the early<BR>
  versions. As I think that we should make it portable from the beginning<BR>
  and not wait until I've invented to many inportable features.<BR>
<BR>
  So pick up Perl 5.6 from CPAN.Org or ActiveState.Com and give my module<BR>
  a try on your platform. Attached are the files read and produced as a<BR>
  regression test of the module.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:22:47 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Perl Traveller Module - Examples<BR>
<BR>
- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<BR>
Content-Disposition: inline<BR>
<BR>
Hy folks,<BR>
<BR>
  and here are the examples - please note that the <import> element<BR>
  in the Igoma.xml file mean shiping the parts for 1kCr/dt.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X<BR>
Content-Type: text/xml; charset=us-ascii<BR>
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Avalanche.xml"<BR>
<BR>
<catalog title="Avalanche Shipyard"><BR>
<BR>
    <html:p>Avalanche is not only the main shipyard on Imaparlu, but also<BR>
    the main supplier of starship parts in the Yacht Project.</html:p><BR>
<BR>
    <parts title="Starship Hulls"><BR>
	<hull id="Igoma-Hull"   dt="200"          g="2" lm="2.3" mvm="1.5" conf="streamlined wedge" desc="Igoma Yacht Hull"/><BR>
	<hull id="Eman-Hull"    dt="300"  ar="50" g="3" lm="2.5" mvm="1.5" conf="streamlined wedge" desc="Eman SDB Hull"/><BR>
	<hull id="Shamir-Hull"  dt="750"  ar="50" g="3" lm="2.5" mvm="1.5" conf="streamlined wedge" desc="Shamir Destroyer Hull"/><BR>
	<hull id="Maechti-Hull" dt="900"  ar="50" g="2" lm="3.0" mvm="1.3" conf="streamlined needle" desc="Maechti Tender Hull"/><BR>
	<hull id="Agamesh-Hull" dt="3000" ar="20" g="3" lm="3.0" mvm="1.3" conf="streamlined needle" desc="Agamesh Tender Hull"/><BR>
    </parts><BR>
<BR>
    <parts title="Fusion Power Plants"><BR>
	<power id="W100"  mw="100"  desc="Convor Plant" /><BR>
	<power id="W160"  mw="160"  desc="Igoma Plant" /><BR>
	<power id="W1000" mw="1000" desc="Eman Plant" /><BR>
	<power id="W1250" mw="1250" desc="Barbardos Plant" /><BR>
	<power id="W1750" mw="1750" desc="Maechti Plant" /><BR>
	<power id="W3000" mw="3000" desc="Shamir Plant" /><BR>
	<power id="W4000" mw="4000" desc="Agamesh Plant" /><BR>
    </parts><BR>
<BR>
</catalog><BR>
<BR>
- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X<BR>
Content-Type: text/xml; charset=us-ascii<BR>
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Igoma.xml"<BR>
<BR>
<catalog title="Avalanche Shipyard"><BR>
<BR>
    <html:p><BR>
	The <html:b>YP-10-200 Ingoma</html:b> resembles a classical<BR>
	design from Ingo Martin, published in Mythos vol. 19/1984.<BR>
    </html:p><BR>
<BR>
    <import ref="Avalanche" /><BR>
    <import ref="Tiguv" jump="1" /><BR>
<BR>
    <construction id="YP-10-200-Ingoma" title="YP-10-200 Igoma class Yacht"><BR>
        <section name="engn"><BR>
	    <part ref="Igoma-Hull" /><BR>
	    <part ref="W160" /><BR>
        </section><BR>
        <section name="arma"><BR>
	    <part ref="TiguvL65" /><BR>
        </section><BR>
        <section name="note"><BR>
<BR>
	    <html:p><BR>
		The <html:b>YP-10-200 Ingoma</html:b> is now build on<BR>
		several shipyards in Gushemege. The Gushemege Merchantile<BR>
		Guild provides enough freight capacity to supply any part<BR>
		of the Igoma in terms of the <html:i>Yacht Project</html:i>.<BR>
	    </html:p><BR>
	    <html:p><BR>
		The <html:i>Yacht Project</html:i> started in the early 70th.<BR>
		The Moot of Ports decided to subsidize technical universities<BR>
		and small class A orbital shipyards as a development aid to<BR>
		human populated worlds.<BR>
	    </html:p><BR>
	    <html:p><BR>
		Igoma crews especially like, that its possible to build and<BR>
		repair even main parts on nearly any word in the Wilds.<BR>
		Some of them also mention that Tl:A computers are to stupid<BR>
		for a full grown AI, and its therefore easy to control the<BR>
		ship by hand.<BR>
	    </html:p><BR>
	    <html:p><BR>
		In respect of the modern times the ships mainframes are<BR>
		normally equipped with a sophisticated anti virus software.<BR>
		This software has a defensive combat value of 7 in games terms.<BR>
	    </html:p><BR>
<BR>
	    <html:p><BR>
		    The original CT stats had been :<BR>
	    </html:p><BR>
	    <html:ul><BR>
	    <html:li>200 Tones</html:li><BR>
	    <html:li>Tech Level : 10</html:li><BR>
	    <html:li>Crew 4</html:li><BR>
	    <html:li>Jump drive A - 1 parsec</html:li><BR>
	    <html:li>Thruster drive A - 1 G</html:li><BR>
	    <html:li>Computer Model/1 - 2/4 standard software</html:li><BR>
	    <html:li>Fuel 50 tones, enough for 4 weeks and 2 jumps</html:li><BR>
	    <html:li>1 hard point</html:li><BR>
	    <html:li>Price (including air raft and launch) 51 MCr</html:li><BR>
	    </html:ul><BR>
	    <html:p><BR>
		In addition to the original design, this ship is streamlined,<BR>
		and has a contra graph and a fuel scope.<BR>
	    </html:p><BR>
<BR>
	</section><BR>
    </construction><BR>
<BR>
</catalog><BR>
<BR>
- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X<BR>
Content-Type: text/xml; charset=us-ascii<BR>
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Tiguv.xml"<BR>
<BR>
<catalog title="Tiguv High Energy"><BR>
    <html:p>Tiguv is a traditional company from 1618 Gabradio.</html:p><BR>
<BR>
    <parts title="Gravitation focused Laser"><BR>
	<laser id="TiguvL65" tl="10" energy="65" radius="1.8" range="2" rof="200" type="grav" desc="Tiguv 65 Mj Point Defense Laser"><BR>
	    The Tiguv 65 MJ laser serves best at missile defense.<BR>
	</laser><BR>
	<laser id="TiguvL250" tl="10" energy="250" radius="5.8" range="10" rof="100" type="grav" desc="Tiguv 250 Mj Heavy Laser"><BR>
	    The Tiguv 250 MJ laser provides fire power in long range fights.<BR>
	</laser><BR>
    </parts><BR>
<BR>
    <parts title="Particle Accellerator"><BR>
	<particle id="TiguvP400" tl="10" energy="400" length="60" radius="1.8" range="3" rof="10" desc="Tiguv 400 Mj Particle Accelerator"><BR>
	    The Tiguv 400 is the main armament of many vessels.<BR>
	</particle><BR>
	<particle id="Panamax" tl="10" energy="40000" length="300" radius="2.0" range="10" rof="10" desc="Tiguv Panamax"><BR>
	    Starport defense is the main deployment for the Panamax. Versions with smaller HPGs may serve in Panamax sized vessels.<BR>
	</particle><BR>
    </parts><BR>
<BR>
</catalog><BR>
<BR>
- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X<BR>
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii<BR>
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Tiguv.html"<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><header<BR>
><title<BR>
>Tiguv High Energy</title<BR>
></header<BR>
></FONT><FONT  SIZE=6 PTSIZE=20><BR>
<BR>
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER><B>Tiguv High Energy<BR>
<BR>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT></FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><ul<BR>
><li<BR>
><A HREF="#Gravitation%20focused%20Laser">Gravitation focused Laser</A></li<BR>
><li<BR>
><A HREF="#Particle%20Accellerator">Particle Accellerator</A></li<BR>
></ul<BR>
><BR>
Tiguv is a traditional company from 1618 Gabradio.</FONT><FONT  SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16><BR>
<BR>
<a<BR>
	name="Gravitation%20focused%20Laser"<BR>
>Gravitation focused Laser<BR>
<BR>
    <I>Tiguv 65 Mj Point Defense Laser<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<b<BR>
>Offensive: </b<BR>
>65 MJ Laser 2:1/6-20  4:1/3-10  8:1/2-5  16:1/1-2 <table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Diameter</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>3.6 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Wavelength</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>2 k-anstroems UV </td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Effective Range</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>1.9 clicks</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Short Range</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>2.0 clicks</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Discharge</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>65.0 MJ</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Rate of Fire</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>200 rpm</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Beam Pointer</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 2.4</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 240.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 2.4</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Focal Array</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 13.2</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Power</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 36.1</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MW</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 2.6</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 13.2</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>HPG</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 52.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 260.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 26.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
>	    The Tiguv 65 MJ laser serves best at missile defense.</FONT><FONT  SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16>    Tiguv 250 Mj Heavy Laser<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<b<BR>
>Offensive: </b<BR>
>250 MJ Laser 10:1/13-40  20:1/13-40  40:1/6-20  80:1/3-10 <table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Diameter</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>11.6 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Wavelength</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>2 k-anstroems UV </td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Effective Range</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>20.2 clicks</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Short Range</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10.0 clicks</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Discharge</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>250.0 MJ</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Rate of Fire</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>100 rpm</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Beam Pointer</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 12.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.2</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 12.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Focal Array</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 264.2</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Power</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 69.4</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MW</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 52.8</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 264.2</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>HPG</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 200.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 100.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
>	    The Tiguv 250 MJ laser provides fire power in long range fights.</FONT><FONT  SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16><BR>
<BR>
<a<BR>
	name="Particle%20Accellerator"<BR>
>Particle Accellerator<BR>
<BR>
    Tiguv 400 Mj Particle Accelerator<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<b<BR>
>Offensive: </b<BR>
>400 Mj PA 3:100 6:54 12:27 24:14<table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Diameter</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>3.6 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Length</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>60.0 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Effective Range</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>3.3 clicks</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Short Range</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>3.0 clicks</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Discharge</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>400.0 MJ</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Rate of Fire</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10 rpm</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Beam Pointer</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 3.6</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 360.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 3.6</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>HPG</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 320.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.6</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 160.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Tunnel</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 610.7</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Power</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 11.1</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MW</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 61.1</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 610.7</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
>	    The Tiguv 400 is the main armament of many vessels.</FONT><FONT  SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16>    Tiguv Panamax<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<b<BR>
>Offensive: </b<BR>
>40000 Mj PA 10:1000 20:1000 40:503 80:251<table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Diameter</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>4.0 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Length</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>300.0 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Effective Range</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>20.1 clicks</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Short Range</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10.0 clicks</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Discharge</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>40000.0 MJ</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Rate of Fire</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10 rpm</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Beam Pointer</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 12.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.2</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 12.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>HPG</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 32.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kT</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 160.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 16.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>km3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Tunnel</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 3.8</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kT</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Power</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.1</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>GW</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 377.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 3.8</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>km3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
>	    Starport defense is the main deployment for the Panamax. Versions with smaller HPGs may serve in Panamax sized vessels.</B></I><BR>
<BR>
- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X<BR>
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii<BR>
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Avalanche.html"<BR>
<BR>
<header<BR>
><title<BR>
>Avalanche Shipyard</title<BR>
></header<BR>
></FONT><FONT  SIZE=6 PTSIZE=20><BR>
<BR>
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER><B>Avalanche Shipyard<BR>
<BR>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT></FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><ul<BR>
><li<BR>
><A HREF="#Starship%20Hulls">Starship Hulls</A></li<BR>
><li<BR>
><A HREF="#Fusion%20Power%20Plants">Fusion Power Plants</A></li<BR>
></ul<BR>
><BR>
Avalanche is not only the main shipyard on Imaparlu, but also    the main supplier of starship parts in the Yacht Project.</FONT><FONT  SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16><BR>
<BR>
<a<BR>
	name="Starship%20Hulls"<BR>
>Starship Hulls<BR>
<BR>
    <I>Igoma Yacht Hull<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<b<BR>
>Configuration: </b<BR>
>200 dt crystaliron streamlined wedge<table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Armor</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>20.0 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Length</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>40.2 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Hull</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 360.3</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 324.2</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 36.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Structur</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 36.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 32.4</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 3.6</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>provides</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 2.8</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>km3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
></FONT><FONT  SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16>    Eman SDB Hull<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<b<BR>
>Configuration: </b<BR>
>300 dt crystaliron streamlined wedge<table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Armor</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>50.0 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Length</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>50.0 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Hull</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.2</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kT</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.1</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 118.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Structur</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 70.8</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 63.7</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 7.1</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>provides</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 4.2</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>km3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
></FONT><FONT  SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16>    Shamir Destroyer Hull<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<b<BR>
>Configuration: </b<BR>
>750 dt crystaliron streamlined wedge<table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Armor</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>50.0 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Length</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>67.9 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Hull</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 2.2</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kT</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 2.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 217.4</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Structur</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 130.4</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 117.4</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 13.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>provides</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 10.5</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>km3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
></FONT><FONT  SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16>    Maechti Tender Hull<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<b<BR>
>Configuration: </b<BR>
>900 dt crystaliron streamlined needle<table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Armor</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>50.0 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Length</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>86.6 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Hull</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 2.1</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kT</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.9</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 212.8</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Structur</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 85.1</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 76.6</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 8.5</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>provides</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 12.6</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>km3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
></FONT><FONT  SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16>    Agamesh Tender Hull<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<b<BR>
>Configuration: </b<BR>
>3000 dt crystaliron streamlined needle<table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Armor</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>20.0 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Length</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>129.4 m</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Hull</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.9</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kT</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.7</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 189.9</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Structur</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 284.9</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 256.4</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 28.5</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>provides</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 42.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>km3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
></FONT><FONT  SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16><BR>
<BR>
<a<BR>
	name="Fusion%20Power%20Plants"<BR>
>Fusion Power Plants<BR>
<BR>
    Convor Plant<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<b<BR>
>Power Plant: </b<BR>
>100 MW Fusion Plant<table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Fuel</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.1</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 525.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> Cr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 15.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Plant</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 200.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 10.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 50.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>provides</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Power</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 100.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MW</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
></FONT><FONT  SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16>    Igoma Plant<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<b<BR>
>Power Plant: </b<BR>
>160 MW Fusion Plant<table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Fuel</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.7</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 840.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> Cr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 24.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Plant</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 320.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 16.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 80.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>provides</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Power</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 160.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MW</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
></FONT><FONT  SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16>    Eman Plant<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<b<BR>
>Power Plant: </b<BR>
>1000 MW Fusion Plant<table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Fuel</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 10.5</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 5.3</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 150.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Plant</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 2.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kT</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 100.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 500.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>provides</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Power</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>GW</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
></FONT><FONT  SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16>    Barbardos Plant<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<b<BR>
>Power Plant: </b<BR>
>1250 MW Fusion Plant<table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Fuel</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 13.1</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 6.6</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 187.5</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Plant</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 2.5</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kT</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 125.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 625.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>provides</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Power</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.2</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>GW</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
></FONT><FONT  SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16>    Maechti Plant<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<b<BR>
>Power Plant: </b<BR>
>1750 MW Fusion Plant<table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Fuel</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 18.4</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 9.2</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 262.5</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Plant</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 3.5</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kT</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 175.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 875.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>provides</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Power</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.8</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>GW</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
></FONT><FONT  SIZE=5 PTSIZE=16>    Shamir Plant<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<b<BR>
>Power Plant: </b<BR>
>3000 MW Fusion Plant<table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Fuel</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 31.5</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 15.8</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 450.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Plant</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 6.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kT</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 300.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 1.5</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>km3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>provides</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Power</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 3.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>GW</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
>Agamesh Plant<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<b<BR>
>Power Plant: </b<BR>
>4000 MW Fusion Plant<table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Tech Level</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Fuel</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 42.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> T</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 21.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 600.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
> m3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>Plant</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Mass</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 8.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>kT</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Price</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 400.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>MCr</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Volume</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 2.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>km3</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
	colspan="3"<BR>
><b<BR>
>provides</b<BR>
></td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
>Power</td<BR>
><td<BR>
	align="right"<BR>
> 4.0</td<BR>
><td<BR>
>GW</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
></B></I><BR>
<BR>
- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X<BR>
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii<BR>
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Igoma.html"<BR>
<BR>
<header<BR>
><title<BR>
>Avalanche Shipyard</title<BR>
></header<BR>
>Avalanche Shipyard<BR>
<BR>
<ul<BR>
><li<BR>
><A HREF="#YP%2D%31%30%2D%32%30%30%20Igoma%20class%20Yacht">YP-10-200 Igoma class Yacht</A></li<BR>
></ul<BR>
><BR>
	The <b<BR>
>YP-10-200 Ingoma</b<BR>
> resembles a classical	design from Ingo Martin, published in Mythos vol. 19/1984.<a<BR>
	name="YP%2D%31%30%2D%32%30%30%20Igoma%20class%20Yacht"<BR>
>YP-10-200 Igoma class Yacht<BR>
<BR>
General Data<BR>
<BR>
<dl<BR>
><dd<BR>
><table<BR>
	border="0"<BR>
	width="80%"<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
><b<BR>
>Displacement: </b<BR>
>200</td<BR>
><td<BR>
><b<BR>
>Hull Armor: </b<BR>
>20</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
><b<BR>
>Length: </b<BR>
>40</td<BR>
><td<BR>
><b<BR>
>Volume: </b<BR>
>2800</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
><b<BR>
>Price: </b<BR>
> 19.5 MCr</td<BR>
><td<BR>
><b<BR>
>Target Size: </b<BR>
>S</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
><tr<BR>
><td<BR>
><b<BR>
>Mass: </b<BR>
> 785.6  ton</td<BR>
><td<BR>
><b<BR>
>Tech Level: </b<BR>
>10</td<BR>
></tr<BR>
></table<BR>
></dd<BR>
></dl<BR>
>Engineering Data<BR>
<BR>
<dl<BR>
><dd<BR>
><b<BR>
>Configuration: </b<BR>
>200 dt crystaliron streamlined wedge</dd<BR>
><dd<BR>
><b<BR>
>Power Plant: </b<BR>
>160 MW Fusion Plant</dd<BR>
></dl<BR>
>Armament<BR>
<BR>
<dl<BR>
><dd<BR>
><b<BR>
>Offensive: </b<BR>
>65 MJ Laser 2:1/6-20  4:1/3-10  8:1/2-5  16:1/1-2 </dd<BR>
></dl<BR>
>Notes<BR>
<BR>
<dl<BR>
><BR>
		The <b<BR>
>YP-10-200 Ingoma</b<BR>
> is now build on		several shipyards in Gushemege. The Gushemege Merchantile		Guild provides enough freight capacity to supply any part		of the Igoma in terms of the <i<BR>
>Yacht Project</i<BR>
>.<BR>
		The <i<BR>
>Yacht Project</i<BR>
> started in the early 70th.		The Moot of Ports decided to subsidize technical universities		and small class A orbital shipyards as a development aid to		human populated worlds.<BR>
		Igoma crews especially like, that its possible to build and		repair even main parts on nearly any word in the Wilds.		Some of them also mention that Tl:A computers are to stupid		for a full grown AI, and its therefore easy to control the		ship by hand.<BR>
		In respect of the modern times the ships mainframes are		normally equipped with a sophisticated anti virus software.		This software has a defensive combat value of 7 in games terms.<BR>
		    The original CT stats had been :<ul<BR>
><li<BR>
>200 Tones</li<BR>
><li<BR>
>Tech Level : 10</li<BR>
><li<BR>
>Crew 4</li<BR>
><li<BR>
>Jump drive A - 1 parsec</li<BR>
><li<BR>
>Thruster drive A - 1 G</li<BR>
><li<BR>
>Computer Model/1 - 2/4 standard software</li<BR>
><li<BR>
>Fuel 50 tones, enough for 4 weeks and 2 jumps</li<BR>
><li<BR>
>1 hard point</li<BR>
><li<BR>
>Price (including air raft and launch) 51 MCr</li<BR>
></ul<BR>
><BR>
		In addition to the original design, this ship is streamlined,		and has a contra graph and a fuel scope.</dl<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2657<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, June 25 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2658<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Titan A.E. brief<BR>
Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
ANNOUNCEMENT! Tavonni Departure Lounge officially opens!! [LONG]<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:22:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>As long-time TMLers know, Kenjitsu is the Way of the Sayat. <g, d, &r><BR>
><BR>
Where is Kenji these days?  I really miss him!<BR>
<BR>
I mean it!<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:40:56 -0500<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Titan A.E. brief<BR>
<BR>
Seen it.<BR>
Here's comments sans spoilers.<BR>
<BR>
1. Liked the images.<BR>
2. Storyline - right out of a beer and pretzels traveller game.<BR>
3. Worth seeing<BR>
<BR>
Rush hour<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Pat Connaughton <BR>
ICQ # 2535086<BR>
pconn@i1.net<BR>
"He who knows not how to dissemble knows not<BR>
how to reign"<BR>
Tiberius, Emperator and Princips of Rome<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: <GypsyComet@aol.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 10:44 AM<BR>
Subject: Titan A.E. brief<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Anyone seen this yet? Good? Bad? Indifferent? Traveller-relatable?<BR>
> <BR>
> Keep the spoilers to a minimum please...<BR>
> <BR>
> GC<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:55:10 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
> <BR>
> >As long-time TMLers know, Kenjitsu is the Way of the Sayat. <g, d, &r><BR>
> ><BR>
> Where is Kenji these days?  I really miss him!<BR>
> <BR>
> I mean it!<BR>
<BR>
You're not the only one, Kiri.<BR>
<BR>
To give the TML newcomers a taste of Kenji posts, I went back to my<BR>
January 2000 archives, to find an appropriate example.  I haven't been<BR>
able to narrow my choice down to one post yet, mostly because I've been<BR>
laughing myself silly re-reading Kenji's posts from the beginning of the<BR>
year.  I am proud to say that I acted as a springboard for Kenji' posts<BR>
several times during the first few days of the year 2000.<BR>
<BR>
I'll keep searching my archives, though, until I find a _truly_<BR>
appropriate Kenji post to repost to the list.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:05:38 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
During my IHMSA Silhouette pistol days, we had a local range rule<BR>
prohibiting .22 centerfires: too many targets were getting perforated. These<BR>
were hardened 3/8" thick steel silhouettes.<BR>
<BR>
Have you tried the steel plates with a .17?  I was stunned to see a little<BR>
25 grain bullet make it through one. Sectional Density is the key: the<BR>
smaller the area the kinetic energy is focused on, the better it will<BR>
penetrate. Your .458 is a worse armor piercer than an a 7.62mm NATO when<BR>
viewed that way:<BR>
<BR>
.458 Win. mag firing 500 grain bullet @2100 FPS = 4897 Ft. Lbs. in an area<BR>
of  0.165 Square Inches = 29679 Ft. Lbs./Square Inch<BR>
<BR>
7.62mm NATO firing 147 grain bullet at 2800 FPS = 2560 Ft. Lbs. in an area<BR>
of 0.075 Square Inches =  34133 Ft. Lbs./Square Inch<BR>
<BR>
Let's look at the .17-.22-250: 25 grain bullet at 4,300 FPS: 1027 Ft. Lbs.<BR>
in an area of  0.023 Square Inches =<BR>
44652 Ft. Lbs./Square Inch.<BR>
<BR>
The KTW and later Arcane THV rounds used the modified ogive you described<BR>
for better feeding in SMGs.  The Arcane rounds were made on screw machines<BR>
long before CNC turning centers were common for small part work.<BR>
<BR>
Be careful making your own bullets from barstock: PMC had to pull their<BR>
Solid Copper Tube ammo line (I forget the name) because of BATF objections<BR>
regarding what constitutes "Armor-Piercing" construction.<BR>
<BR>
I am certain the 5000 FPS article was in a Guns and Ammo. I'm checking<BR>
Petersen Publications website for an index. IMO, the only way you are going<BR>
to see that theoretical limit is to use a Sabotted round: you can only burn<BR>
so much powder within a barrel of X dimensions: the larger the bore the<BR>
larger the piston area and room for the propellant to expand and perform<BR>
useful work. There are ways to boost propellant's speed: the problem is not<BR>
so much the maximum rate of expansion: it's the peak pressures. ETC (Plasma<BR>
injected, excited liquid, whatever you want to call it) rounds promise a<BR>
pretty effective alternative, though.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I knew they were making the shotgun flechettes on nail header<BR>
machines: sort of a two step stamping / drawing operation. I used to make<BR>
steel shot for Daisy Mfg.; I know ALL about headers. :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 11:41 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/24/00 11:08 PM, Matthew W. Helton at mwhelton@cox-internet.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > RE: Bullet construction; The French ARCANE ammunition of the early 80's<BR>
used<BR>
> > a solid copper bullet with a 45 degree ogive and a hollow base for<BR>
superior<BR>
> > penetration. Velocities were extremely high in .380 ACP, 9x19mm, .38<BR>
> > special, .357 magnum, and .45 ACP.<BR>
><BR>
> I have several example of the THV ammo.  The ogive is very strange, with a<BR>
> little ball like tip and a changing radius ogive.  Goes through armor like<BR>
> all get out though.  The rounds we made were solid copper with a stright<BR>
45<BR>
> degree angle ogive.  We made them on a CNC lathe.<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > The Safariland concealment vest is rated at NIJ Level IIa: It doesn't<BR>
> > surprise me that a spitzer bullet would make it through. Some Low<BR>
Velocity<BR>
> > 9mm loads will as well.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I am well aware that most sharp objects will not even be slowed by a<BR>
bullet<BR>
> > proof vest: they slip between the individual threads of the fabric.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Penetration needs to be qualified: At what range? Most rifle rounds are<BR>
NOT<BR>
> > perfectly stabilized at the muzzle: they need time for aerodynamic<BR>
braking<BR>
> > to straighten them out. An 7.62mm NATO armor piercing round fired into a<BR>
> > plate at 25 yards will have dramatically less penetration than the same<BR>
> > round at 100 yards. A decent treatise of this can be read in Handloading<BR>
> > Digest 1989 Edition. The author was able to to perforate steel plates at<BR>
> > distances of up to 200 yards with a .220 swift and a .17-.22-250<BR>
"Improved"<BR>
> > (Way overbore).<BR>
><BR>
> Sure.  We were shooting plates at 100 yards.  My doubts were about<BR>
> penetrating 3/4" steel.  I can't do this with my .458 win mag Whitworth<BR>
> express rifle firing 500 gn monolithic solids in front of 72 gns of 4895.<BR>
I<BR>
> tested this on Friday (my shoulder is still sore).  I did badly deform the<BR>
> plate, and toss it backwards about 5 feet.<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Slightly OT: This is why boat-tailed bullets aren't as accurate at<BR>
shorter<BR>
> > ranges (<200 yards) compared to flatbase bullets.<BR>
><BR>
> Sure, the whole point is to reduce drag for improved long range<BR>
performance.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > As far as the .22 Sabot round I described, I saw in an Guns and Ammo<BR>
Circa<BR>
> > 1994(?) I'm not totally sure: I can find out. It was mentioned right on<BR>
the<BR>
> > cover. I AM sure of the top velocity: 5,005 FPS. It was one of Bob<BR>
Milek's<BR>
> > last articles, as I recall. He was using pulled Remington Accelerator<BR>
Sabots<BR>
> > with 45 to 55 grain HP, FMJ and SP projos.<BR>
><BR>
> I don't doubt you, but would be really interested in reading the article.<BR>
> The theoretical limit of velocity for chemically powered projectiles is<BR>
> around 6000 fps due to the limiting factor of the rate at which<BR>
deflagrating<BR>
> propellants can expand.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I think you're right on the flechette thing: The shotgun flechettes were<BR>
not<BR>
> > individually machined like the rifle flechettes were: they were made of<BR>
> > stamped steel, and there were a number of problems with the sabot and<BR>
the<BR>
> > loading pattern in the shells themselves. The "hooking" effect, from<BR>
what I<BR>
> > read, resulted in a fairly large wound, but with fairly superficial<BR>
> > penetration. This was not exactly what they had in mind: good energy<BR>
> > transfer, but they wanted more penetration. Steyr's flechette 5.56mm<BR>
round<BR>
> > was dropped because of excessive penetration, with not enough energy<BR>
> > transfer during the OICW trials.<BR>
><BR>
> Penetration of the SPIW was not trivial.  Typically about 4 to 6" (think<BR>
> about the human torso).  Of course, in order to achieve this kind of<BR>
> performance, the XM645 piston primer cartridge generated a chamber<BR>
pressure<BR>
> of about 70,000 psi in less than 0.5 milliseconds.  The Stey ACR (which<BR>
> looks really cool, I use a picture of it to represent a gauss rifle) was<BR>
no<BR>
> where close to these pressures or velocities.  To make a flechette really<BR>
> lethal, you need to push the velocity above the 'magic' 1450 m/s (the<BR>
speed<BR>
> of sound in tissue).<BR>
><BR>
> With regard to shotgun flechette, check out the AAI SCMITR shotgun<BR>
> flechette.  I have a photo on my trav weapons site<BR>
> (http://weapons.travellercentral.com).  A very effective design that<BR>
> corrects the shortcomings of the typical shotgun flechette.<BR>
><BR>
> BTW, Whirlpool and Olin used nail making machines to manufacture shotgun<BR>
> flechettes, not stamping dies (OK, I'm being anal now).<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Ezell's books are the best, but remeber to take them in the context of<BR>
when<BR>
> > they were written: The "ballistic zeitgeist" has changed dramatically<BR>
over<BR>
> > the last 10-25 years. It seems to run in five year cycles. :-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> True.  Of course much of the trends in firearms design are nothing more<BR>
than<BR>
> fashion.  Ther are a lot of brilliant and effective designs from the 50s<BR>
and<BR>
> 60s that are superior to stuff that's being floated today.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm glad to see fellow enthusiasts on this list.  If you're ever feeling<BR>
> bored, I invite you to critiques or better yet submit weapons for my<BR>
> traveller gun site (The Mercenary's Guide to Weapons<BR>
> http://weapons.travellercentral.com)<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> "Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
> killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
> --<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:11:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>     Never joke about the Spofulam.  Never.  You never know when she will<BR>
>> appear.  Hey, isn't that Ditzi right behind you?<BR>
><BR>
>The proper way to present that, sir, is to post as follows:<BR>
><BR>
>"Hey, isn't that Ditzie right behind you?" [note proper spelling<BR>
>"Ditzie"], followed by:<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/baycon_2000.htm<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Or in the words of Brave Sir Robin, "Run away, run away."<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:23:47 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
on 6/25/00 8:05 PM, Matthew W. Helton at mwhelton@cox-internet.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Be careful making your own bullets from barstock: PMC had to pull their<BR>
> Solid Copper Tube ammo line (I forget the name) because of BATF objections<BR>
> regarding what constitutes "Armor-Piercing" construction.<BR>
<BR>
We did this a while ago.  Trust me, I am familiar with the regs as I am<BR>
married to an agent.<BR>
> so much the maximum rate of expansion: it's the peak pressures. ETC (Plasma<BR>
> injected, excited liquid, whatever you want to call it) rounds promise a<BR>
> pretty effective alternative, though.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I played around with CAP (Combustion Augmented Plasma as they knew it<BR>
a Hughes) a while ago.  Way cool. 5.56mm 55gn bullet at almost double the<BR>
velocity of the M98 out of a slightly modified Colt barrel.  About the same<BR>
peak pressure and all with water as a propellant.  Plasma stimulated working<BR>
fluids are THE way to go.  Now if they can just lick the battery problem.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Yeah, I knew they were making the shotgun flechettes on nail header<BR>
> machines: sort of a two step stamping / drawing operation. I used to make<BR>
> steel shot for Daisy Mfg.; I know ALL about headers. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I earlier made the comment about all the IT people on this list.  Seems that<BR>
there's as many major barrel suckers.  I got my start at Velet cartridge<BR>
co., If anyone remembers them nowadays.  In my spare time, I'm down at PAWS<BR>
(Police Automatics Weapons Service) playing with the occasional gun project.<BR>
I wish the gun industry paid as well as IT.<BR>
<BR>
Oh well.<BR>
<BR>
I've pulled some M885 bullets to try a little AP experiment.  Think I'll try<BR>
them in the .220 swift.<BR>
<BR>
Do you know if anyone is still making .22/.30 sabots?<BR>
<BR>
Tod "My Gun Safe Is Full--Damn" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:27:30 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
For those of you new to the list, I provide the following two posts from<BR>
the reknowned Kenji Schwarz:<BR>
<BR>
**begin repost #1**<BR>
<BR>
Subject:  Re: The Fashionable Imperial<BR>
Date:     Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:58:39 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From:     Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > > these "insider" signals lose their meaning.<BR>
> > ...or they're sometimes replaced by others.<BR>
> > <BR>
> Red ties anybody?<BR>
<BR>
Huh?  What sort of frickin' sicko PERVERT would want to make it with a<BR>
Harvard graduate?  <BR>
<BR>
You people!  I'm disgusted beyond words.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
**end repost #1**<BR>
<BR>
**begin repost #2**<BR>
<BR>
Subject:  Snob Schools (was: Re: The Fashionable Imperial<BR>
Date:     Thu, 6 Jan 2000 17:30:26 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From:     Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
 <BR>
On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Huh?  What sort of frickin' sicko PERVERT would want to make it with a<BR>
> > Harvard graduate?<BR>
> <BR>
> A social-climber Yalie?<BR>
<BR>
Oooooh... I'll have to remember that one.<BR>
<BR>
I've always wished there were more institutions of higher learning in<BR>
the<BR>
OTU, with a voice/presence, I mean.  What do we have?<BR>
<BR>
 - Kasiiga University on Vland<BR>
 - The Jumpspace Institue on Deneb<BR>
 - University of Regina<BR>
 - University of Rhylanor<BR>
 - Glisten Planetological Institute (?)<BR>
 - Institute for System Studies on Alzenei (Sky Raiders trilogy)<BR>
 - Imperial Academy of Science and Medicine<BR>
<BR>
... anything else?  Most of these don't have a whole lot of character,<BR>
ISTM; partly because, maybe, they're so far apart that they can't<BR>
interact enough.  Expansions would be cool.  101 Schools?  I'd write for<BR>
_that_.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
**end repost #2**<BR>
<BR>
Note that Kenji began the "101 Universities" concept, which has led to<BR>
five entries so far.  (As the poster who renamed the thread to "101<BR>
Schools," I have archived all suggestions posted to date.)<BR>
<BR>
There are other noteworthy Kenji posts in my archives (ask, and ye shall<BR>
receive).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 21:28:53 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
>Sure, that is no experience for the real thing.  But it is very hard to get<BR>
that kind of experience, even in the dojo with a really good instructor.<BR>
Remember that Model Mugging was founded by a martial artist after a close<BR>
female friend, who was also the California women's karate champion, was the<BR>
victim of a rape.<<BR>
<BR>
*shrug*<BR>
Basically this highlights why I rarely like getting into the whole issue. I<BR>
have to (and am willing to) take your word on all this as I never saw it in<BR>
action myself. Others I have observed left a poor impression with me.<BR>
Basically, just what you said about the choreographed acts of some<BR>
instructors.<BR>
I am reminded of two "stories:.<BR>
First, the man who owns the school I work out of used to do knife disarms.<BR>
We are Karate people. He would always use a "live" Tanto. We finally got him<BR>
to stop after he nearly had his hand cut off in class. At every demo we did,<BR>
the Jiu-jitsu people always used rubber knives.<BR>
Second, at one seminar the Jiu-jitsu man started asking who had done falls<BR>
and rolls and on what surfaces. On mats, everyone. On hardwood, several. On<BR>
concrete, me. He stated loudly that no one does falls on concrete. It being<BR>
his seminar, I let it pass. Not only have I seen other Jiu-jitsu people do<BR>
full aerials on concrete, I have done falls on blacktop, concrete and<BR>
similar less than pleasant surfaces. It wasn't fun, but the alternative was<BR>
always significantly worse.<BR>
What is the lesson? Actions always speak louder than words. I don't mean get<BR>
into fights to see who is tougher, but watch what is taught and what the<BR>
instructors themselves do and use some common sense. Even me. Come on down<BR>
and watch what I teach for a bit before deciding if I'm right.<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav:  Ok,I don't know, although I think martial arts are highly oversold<BR>
in terms of their effectiveness, particularly in RPGs.  I know that's part<BR>
of the fun, but let's not try to pass it off as anything approaching<BR>
reality.  Real, serious HTH combat rarely lasts very long.  In my brawling<BR>
days, I can't recall any fight I participated in ever lasting more than a<BR>
few blows.  Of course, we were young, tough and trained to fight the army<BR>
way (i.e. fight dirty--the only rule is win.  Hey, just like a real fight).<<BR>
<BR>
Here again it is a difference between what looks good and what wins NOW<BR>
before he gets another shot at you. Real Martial arts works just like<BR>
"common" brawling. He thinks about swinging, you unleash a hurting, he goes<BR>
out on a gurney, you go home early. Period.  Anything else is incidental. If<BR>
for some reason when I move in your arm is all nice and twisted up, sure<BR>
I'll give it that extra twist and snap it like a twig while sending you<BR>
crashing down on top of your neck. If not, it really doesn't matter as my<BR>
hand will simply be moving into your floating ribs several times until you<BR>
don't have much in the way of functioning internal organs. Of course, that<BR>
doesn't make for a good movie or demo unless you are doing it for other<BR>
martial artists.<BR>
(Oh, and their is no such thing as "fighting dirty".  Ever wonder how its<BR>
people three times you size who always want to tell you to "fight fair" when<BR>
its obvious no fight between the two of you ever could be?  "Fight fair" is<BR>
a euphemism for "just let me beat your face in" in my experience.)<BR>
Any game system that stresses anything other than effects similar to hitting<BR>
someone with a sword or shooting them with a gun is basically going for<BR>
movie effects over real effects. Training and individual strength will both<BR>
make the blows more effective. So maybe unarmed damage should be a bit<BR>
higher in some games.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:54:56 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/25/00 6:28 PM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Here again it is a difference between what looks good and what wins NOW<BR>
> before he gets another shot at you. Real Martial arts works just like<BR>
> "common" brawling. He thinks about swinging, you unleash a hurting, he goes<BR>
> out on a gurney, you go home early. Period.  Anything else is incidental. If<BR>
> for some reason when I move in your arm is all nice and twisted up, sure<BR>
> I'll give it that extra twist and snap it like a twig while sending you<BR>
> crashing down on top of your neck. If not, it really doesn't matter as my<BR>
> hand will simply be moving into your floating ribs several times until you<BR>
> don't have much in the way of functioning internal organs. Of course, that<BR>
> doesn't make for a good movie or demo unless you are doing it for other<BR>
> martial artists.<BR>
> (Oh, and their is no such thing as "fighting dirty".  Ever wonder how its<BR>
> people three times you size who always want to tell you to "fight fair" when<BR>
> its obvious no fight between the two of you ever could be?  "Fight fair" is<BR>
> a euphemism for "just let me beat your face in" in my experience.)<BR>
> Any game system that stresses anything other than effects similar to hitting<BR>
> someone with a sword or shooting them with a gun is basically going for<BR>
> movie effects over real effects. Training and individual strength will both<BR>
> make the blows more effective. So maybe unarmed damage should be a bit<BR>
> higher in some games.<BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Sam, I owe you a beer. I am both educated and amused by your post.  As I<BR>
said, I know very little about classical martial arts.  I would love to be<BR>
able to see you demonstrate some 'real' techniques<BR>
<BR>
In return I'll have to give you my infamous 'penny' demonstration.  I shoot<BR>
the center out of a penny at 100 yards.  It's really not that difficult, but<BR>
it always impresses my 'students'.  Good for a beer, anyway.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Don't piss off Sam" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 21:56:41 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
TOd,<BR>
<BR>
>  So who decides?<BR>
<BR>
When you find out, let me know . . . I thought I had something to do with it, <BR>
but some don't seem to think so.<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:30:20 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT! Tavonni Departure Lounge officially opens!! [LONG]<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Beowulf Down starport is pleased to announce the official opening of the Tavonni<BR>
Departure Lounge!<BR>
<BR>
Previously closed to updates due to reprioritisation of resources[1], it became<BR>
obvious that the area was long-overdue[2] for renovation. With the assistance of<BR>
Caradoc LIC[3], Beowulf Down obtained robotic assistance[4] to assist in the<BR>
renovation and maintenance of a new-look terminal building.<BR>
<BR>
The Departure Lounge now allows travellers to browse jump points sorted by Port<BR>
Director, Port Title, and Rating. Phase 2 will add support to browse by Milieu<BR>
(now, did I spell that correctly? ;-) and to allow passing travellers to submit<BR>
details of new Jump point destinations.[5] Phase 3 is still in the planning<BR>
stage, but it is envisioned that it will produce a "Jump Points Of Interest"<BR>
grouping - that is, destinations that are not directly related to Traveller but<BR>
of passing interest such as the Mollier Skycar or real-universe astrographic<BR>
data.<BR>
<BR>
Although mostly self-explanatory, if you don't understand an element of a Jump<BR>
Point entry, see the Key.<BR>
<BR>
Starport liaison officers have added many new entries suggested by our visitors,<BR>
although not all have yet been visited or rated. Please be understanding as our<BR>
team from Survey Branch[6] take the time to travel to each destination port and<BR>
conduct a Class V system survey.[7]<BR>
<BR>
In the meantime, please feel free to come in and browse through the Departure<BR>
Lounge!<BR>
<BR>
Heidi Maria Heyerdahl<BR>
Chairman<BR>
Tavonni Starport Control<BR>
Beowulf Down<BR>
Tavonni (Vilis/Spinward Marches 1520)<BR>
"Centre of the Marches!"<BR>
<BR>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<BR>
Starport Designer's Footnotes:<BR>
[1] I have 2 children under 5, a wife, a full-time job, and very little free<BR>
time. And a baby due in August. Something had to give. (And no jokes about which<BR>
one I should have picked, thanks, I can make those up myself!!  ;-) ;-) ;-)<BR>
[2] It hasn't been updated for 18 months. Gaak!<BR>
[3] Andrew "Eoraokortitrikhue" Madden wrote the VB engine and script that<BR>
interrogate my Access database (fortunately at "mates rates", ie. free. ;-). A<BR>
big thank you!<BR>
[4] A VB program passes Access database queries to a VBScript program, which<BR>
generates static HTML pages. Change the query or add a new one, and the process<BR>
still works. Hey, it's better than what I had before, which was direct editing<BR>
of a single HTML page!<BR>
[5] "No, it's not true that the special collectors edition tickets were printed<BR>
at the wrong size for the ticket machines. The truth is that the slots in the<BR>
ticket machines were built too small for the tickets." (unnamed SOCOG - er,<BR>
sorry, I mean Tavonni official).<BR>
[6] That is, _me_. %-P<BR>
[7] You want to know the procedure just to get _this_ far?!!? Here it is:<BR>
     a.   Pull one's finger out and decide to get "that damn links page<BR>
updated!" ;-) ;<BR>
     b.   Analyse the data required for a Jump Point entry;<BR>
     c.   Create an Access database to match;<BR>
     d.   Massage the old Jump Points page to create a table able to be imported<BR>
into the database (BIG headache);<BR>
     e.   Import and clean up;<BR>
     f.   Get someone to automate HTML page generation;<BR>
     g.   Test, test, and test the generation process, fixing the scripting as<BR>
you go;<BR>
     h.   Manually parse through the 250K (!) of update requests received over<BR>
the past 18 months;<BR>
     i.   Enter the corrections into the database;<BR>
     j.   Create a table containing the new entries;<BR>
     k.   Import that as well and clean up;<BR>
     l.   Generate the sorted pages;<BR>
     m.   Create a new start page with appropriate links to the sorted pages;<BR>
     n.   Update the Key page to match, plus update the Contents, Welcome, and<BR>
Just Detected pages;<BR>
     o.   Create and upload a new "UPDATED" gif, same height as the "NEW" gif;<BR>
     p.   Upload all modifications and re-test.<BR>
     q.   Announce the official opening; and<BR>
     r.   Collapse in a heap. Or maybe a in a corner of Brubek's with a tall<BR>
Scotch.<BR>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<BR>
Whew! Enjoy.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:12:12 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
>Sam, I owe you a beer. I am both educated and amused by your post.  As I<BR>
said, I know very little about classical martial arts.  I would love to be<BR>
able to see you demonstrate some 'real' techniques<BR>
<BR>
In return I'll have to give you my infamous 'penny' demonstration.  I shoot<BR>
the center out of a penny at 100 yards.  It's really not that difficult, but<BR>
it always impresses my 'students'.  Good for a beer, anyway.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Don't piss off Sam" Glenn<<BR>
<BR>
Now I'm blushing.<BR>
Any time you are near Pelham Bay in the Bronx, New York, stop on by. Won't<BR>
be able to do the penny demo here though.  I have a friend who'd appreciate<BR>
seeing it, ex-airborne sniper instructor.<BR>
Or maybe I'll see you at Gen Con. I am meeting as few other people who are<BR>
martial artists and may wind up doing an impromptu class with a bunch of<BR>
them  to exchange ideas.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:51:29 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/25/00 8:12 PM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Now I'm blushing.<BR>
> Any time you are near Pelham Bay in the Bronx, New York, stop on by. Won't<BR>
> be able to do the penny demo here though.  I have a friend who'd appreciate<BR>
> seeing it, ex-airborne sniper instructor.<BR>
> Or maybe I'll see you at Gen Con. I am meeting as few other people who are<BR>
> martial artists and may wind up doing an impromptu class with a bunch of<BR>
> them  to exchange ideas.<BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
The Bronx! No wonder you learned martial arts.  I am here in Oregon, the<BR>
land of legal switchblades, silencers and machineguns (not to mention real<BR>
live anarchists).  Where concealed carry permits are a right, not a<BR>
privilege. I have my S&W 342 loaded with Glasers in my pocket even as I type<BR>
this.  And no, I have never logged.<BR>
<BR>
Oregon, not quite the law level of a starport, but we're working on it.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "From the sticks" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2658<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, June 26 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2659<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Discussion on sheilds made of modern materials<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: What is canon<BR>
Re: Titan A.E. brief<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Titan A.E. brief<BR>
Portland TML Rendezvous Clarification<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:36:53 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com <GDWGAMES@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>  So who decides?<BR>
><BR>
>When you find out, let me know . . . I thought I had something to do with<BR>
it,<BR>
>but some don't seem to think so.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I always thought it was the creator & his or her heirs who decide, but<BR>
then I am more of a Marc Miller-man, so my vote would be 60% Marc, 40%<BR>
Loren.  Sorry, Loren, you lose to Marc.  I mean he does work for LUG.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 21:56:03 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Samuel D. Weiss wrote:<BR>
<<snip - re: Model Mugging, et al>><BR>
>Personal opinion at odds with other professionals:<BR>
>That isn't very real. How many muggers wear extensive padding?<BR>
<BR>
It would be kind of silly to expect them to teach the class by taking <BR>
the students out and allowing them to actually beat some one up, and <BR>
it's hard to find repeat volunteers to play the muggers if you break <BR>
them.<BR>
<BR>
>How may times have you hit someone in the bare face with a bare fist <BR>
>and not felt the pain of bones breaking or coming close to breaking?<BR>
<BR>
Never hit anyone in the face with your hand.<BR>
<BR>
>Realism would be beating up sides of beef like Rocky, clawing the <BR>
>eyeballs of sheep heads, breaking leg bones and the like. Not <BR>
>smacking around someone in enough padding for 10 beds who really <BR>
>won't smack you in the head and grab you in an totally offensive <BR>
>manner at the drop of a hat.<BR>
>Also, most of those classes seem determined to teach moves that require the<BR>
>most time and effort to become proficient at rather than those that require<BR>
>the least. I would never ask someone to learn a hip throw in 10 sessions or<BR>
>less. But that's me.<BR>
<BR>
Having personally taken one of these classes, allow me to comment. <BR>
Hitting sides of beef or bits of dead sheep would be mildly amusing, <BR>
but would not do a damn thing other than send me to wash my hands <BR>
afterwards.(Ew.)  Unless you're attacked by a deranged butcher <BR>
wielding a leg of lamb, or using a side of beef as a shield, or <BR>
unless a sheep turns psycho on you, I fail to see how that would be <BR>
more useful than working with a live person who, while padded, is <BR>
very vocal, very mobile, and bloody well may be trying to smack you <BR>
in the head and grab you.  One of the primary benefits of the class, <BR>
as some one who has not had Tod's checkered past as a 'brawler', is <BR>
the experience of actually hitting something/one.  Even with padding, <BR>
you're learning to make full contact and not be afraid to.  And <BR>
you're not being taught complicated moves (at least not in the <BR>
classes I took), that would be stupid, and useless, as you pointed <BR>
out.  It's more of the down and dirty disable and get away alive <BR>
school of self-defence, plus dealing with attitudes and reactions to <BR>
intimidating circumstances and people.  Any amusement at the odd <BR>
looking padding disappeared very quickly.<BR>
<BR>
>  >"Old age and treachery will beat youth and skill every time"<<BR>
><BR>
>That's what I always say.<BR>
<BR>
Absolutely.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>ObTrav: Errrr...let me think a bit.<BR>
<BR>
Non-military characters and training.  Characters who have not <BR>
received their training from the armed forces, or such, may have very <BR>
different reactions to situtations, even if they have received <BR>
training in civilian life.  You're character has unarmed combat, but <BR>
why?  And from where?  Have they ever actually HIT anyone?  For real? <BR>
Killed or really broken some one?  What will their reaction be if <BR>
this happens?  I've played characters with military backgrounds, <BR>
criminal backgrounds, and neither, some with brawling or unarmed <BR>
combat skills from all three.  I don't play them as having the exact <BR>
same attitudes, due to different backgrounds and training.  Even some <BR>
one with military training may have a differing attitude and reaction <BR>
if, say they're Navy as opposed to Marines. (I've been the lone Navy <BR>
character amid the Marines.  Argh.)  All fun gaming fodder.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<only mostly harmless><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:09:21 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
The most impressive person I have ever seen, as far as demonstrating <BR>
the effectiveness of martial arts/unarmed combat is an older <BR>
gentleman by the name of Jess  - whose last name has fallen off the <BR>
edge of my brain at the moment (I'm sure some one on this list will <BR>
remind me).  He does demos at SF conventions on a fairly regular <BR>
basis, and with the SCA.  He's not big, he's not young, and the last <BR>
time I saw him at work, was a few months after he had had a stroke - <BR>
and he could still beat the crap out of any of the fit young men in <BR>
the area.  He uses a variety of techniques and methods, from a large <BR>
number of fighting styles (boxing, judo, kendo, you name it), <BR>
demonstrating unarmed, stick, knife, sword, and I'm an old man and I <BR>
just have this cane combat.<BR>
<BR>
Old age, treachery, skill, and a sense of humor.  I want him on my side.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:16:46 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Discussion on sheilds made of modern materials<BR>
<BR>
on 6/24/00 6:17 PM, Katharine Whitchurch at katts@globalfreeway.com.au<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The problem with shields is related to the problem that FFS2 armour values<BR>
> dont really allow effective body armour.<BR>
> <BR>
> An example is a 1cm by 1.5 meter by 1 meter shield is 0.01x1.5x1.0 or 0.015<BR>
> m3 of material.<BR>
> <BR>
> If this was build out of wood, it would mass 0.8*15 kilos, or 12 kilos, and<BR>
> would have AV of 0.29.<BR>
> <BR>
> If it was built out of aluminium, it would mass 3.2*15 kilos, or 48 kilos,<BR>
> and have an AV of 1.43.<BR>
<BR>
Checking my CRC handbook of chemistry and physics, I find Aluminum has a<BR>
density of 2.602 g/cm^3.  The above shield should mass about 40.5 kgs<BR>
> <BR>
> If it was built out of TL9 Light Ceramic Composite, it would mass 6*15<BR>
> kilos, or 90 kilos, and would have an AV of 8.57. To get the mass down to<BR>
> 22.5 kilos, we would get a thickness of 2.5mm, and thus a AV of 2.<BR>
<BR>
So apparently, high tech ceramics weigh a lot more. Hmmm.<BR>
<BR>
I would be helpful to me to understand what AV 2 means with regard to<BR>
penetration.  For example, the body bunker I have examined will stop .30<BR>
caliber rifle rounds (including AP).  It masses about 12 kilos and can be<BR>
considered to be TL 6 or 7 technology.  What kind of damage will a .30<BR>
caliber rifle do?  i.e. what will an armor value of 2 stop?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:27:44 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/25/00 10:09 PM, red@europa.com at red@europa.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The most impressive person I have ever seen, as far as demonstrating<BR>
> the effectiveness of martial arts/unarmed combat is an older<BR>
> gentleman by the name of Jess  - whose last name has fallen off the<BR>
> edge of my brain at the moment (I'm sure some one on this list will<BR>
<BR>
Jess Roe .  Mother's prose and steel.  SCA afficianado, bladesmith, martial<BR>
artist.  He works out of Marysville, Washington and can be found at most<BR>
Pacific Northwest scifi/fantasy conventions, as well as SCA events.  I think<BR>
he's trained more bladesmiths than just about anyone else in this neck of<BR>
the woods.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Gum Brain" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:31:56 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
on 6/25/00 6:56 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> TOd,<BR>
> <BR>
>> So who decides?<BR>
> <BR>
> When you find out, let me know . . . I thought I had something to do with it,<BR>
> but some don't seem to think so.<BR>
> <BR>
> Loren Wiseman<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Well, since Marc doesn't post here, I guess I'd consider you the closest<BR>
thing to "keeper of the faith", although since you've gone over to GURPS,<BR>
some might say you are THE heretic.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, I'll hold you to blame if my SolSec stuff turns out to be<BR>
heresy.  Waiting with bated breath for my copy of Rim of Fire.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "my NPCs can beat up uour NPCs" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:43:36 -0700<BR>
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Non-military characters and training.  Characters who have not <BR>
>received their training from the armed forces, or such, may have <BR>
>very different reactions to situtations, even if they have received <BR>
>training in civilian life.  You're character has unarmed combat, but <BR>
>why?  And from where?  Have they ever actually HIT anyone?  For <BR>
>real? Killed or really broken some one?  What will their reaction be <BR>
>if this happens?  I've played characters with military backgrounds, <BR>
>criminal backgrounds, and neither, some with brawling or unarmed <BR>
>combat skills from all three.  I don't play them as having the exact <BR>
>same attitudes, due to different backgrounds and training.  Even <BR>
>some one with military training may have a differing attitude and <BR>
>reaction if, say they're Navy as opposed to Marines. (I've been the <BR>
>lone Navy character amid the Marines.  Argh.)  All fun gaming fodder.<BR>
><BR>
>Red<BR>
><only mostly harmless><BR>
<BR>
I think I have a good example. The latest character I have been <BR>
playing has virtually no close combat skills. (okay he has Handgun of <BR>
1, but they made me carry it)<BR>
His reactions to fights are completely different from the marine <BR>
characters I've played in the past. His first adventure (and he's <BR>
sticking to this story) was when he was shanghaied by some army and <BR>
marine characters. (only because he had a striking resemblance to the <BR>
bad guy we would be going up against.) Lets face it... He's an <BR>
Imperial navy pilot... His idea of fighting is zooming around in <BR>
space and pushing buttons to destroy the enemy ships... This up close <BR>
and in your face fighting is not his style. Therefore he finds <BR>
himself way out of his element in personal combat. But he has fired <BR>
his sidearm. Once he gets it out of the full flap holster, which he <BR>
keeps it in so it wont get dirty. Oh yeah... Don't forget your <BR>
hearing protection.<BR>
As a player I understand that there are advantages to having a <BR>
character with lots of combat skills. As a character with none of <BR>
these skills I find it more challenging. And I think my group likes <BR>
the difference. I've played one of OTU's infamous CRI They are <BR>
vicious fighters. Capable of killing others quickly and efficiently <BR>
with none of the posturing (I hit you... You're dead) However in OTU <BR>
The GM has a tendency to make the encounters as, or more dangerous <BR>
than the PC's<BR>
<BR>
As far as what the difference between Brawling and Martial arts is <BR>
concerned here is my opinion.<BR>
<BR>
In Traveller, martial arts is extensive training in HTH combat. <BR>
Usually without weapons. Brawling is knowing how to use what's at <BR>
hand (You never told me the ashtray story Tod) But that is a good <BR>
example. How to fight with chairs and sticks and good heavy beer <BR>
mugs. Not really a lot of training involved but more of a practical <BR>
experience skill.<BR>
Having had a little martial arts training, (long time ago), there is <BR>
a difference. And besides... this is Traveller... Not real life. Real <BR>
life is mostly boring... Isn't that why we play these games?<BR>
<BR>
Bill "Don't shoot the pilot" Eastlick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:01:31 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/25/00 10:43 PM, Bill at beast@aracnet.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> As far as what the difference between Brawling and Martial arts is<BR>
> concerned here is my opinion.<BR>
<BR>
Hey, that way you learn to think.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> In Traveller, martial arts is extensive training in HTH combat.<BR>
> Usually without weapons. Brawling is knowing how to use what's at<BR>
> hand (You never told me the ashtray story Tod) But that is a good<BR>
> example. How to fight with chairs and sticks and good heavy beer<BR>
> mugs. <BR>
<BR>
Note, in OTU, those are invariable EMPTY mugs.  Can't waste good beer.<BR>
Unless it is Vargr beer.  In that case, you just sic your beer on the<BR>
miscreant.  After it is done, you just let it crawl back into your glass.<BR>
<BR>
I thought I'd told the ashtray story to everyone.  Usually, you guys tell me<BR>
"hey, we've heard this one before".<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Post-cognative" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:59:47 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Red wrote,<BR>
>It would be kind of silly to expect them to teach the class by taking<BR>
the students out and allowing them to actually beat some one up, and<BR>
it's hard to find repeat volunteers to play the muggers if you break<BR>
them.<<BR>
<BR>
Very true. Still, hitting padding is significantly different from hitting<BR>
flesh.<BR>
<BR>
>Never hit anyone in the face with your hand.<<BR>
<BR>
Do you know how many people teach to do that? I do and it constantly shocks<BR>
me.<BR>
<BR>
<snips and ><BR>
>One of the primary benefits of the class,<BR>
as some one who has not had Tod's checkered past as a 'brawler', is<BR>
the experience of actually hitting something/one.  Even with padding,<BR>
you're learning to make full contact and not be afraid to.  <<BR>
<BR>
Actually that is the concept of hitting real meat - to get used to the real<BR>
thing. Smacking someone in padding is simply not the same. I have heard of<BR>
one instructor who has people gouge grapes out of small holes to simulate<BR>
eyes. Actually, as mentioned with firing a gun in combat, the hardest part<BR>
of training is the mental conditioning to actually do these incredibly<BR>
savage things to another human being. I constantly warn people to be<BR>
prepared to finish an attacker off rather than just annoy one by "hurting"<BR>
him and hoping they'll stop. Then again, students have commented to my<BR>
instructor, the head of the school, about how graphic and "intense" I can be<BR>
when describing self defense and the effects of what proper blows delivered<BR>
to the proper places to be. I just kept shrugging it off, reminding people I<BR>
did it because I'd never actually try killing them but I had to do something<BR>
to prepare them for those that would. The one of the female students was<BR>
attacked and badly beaten by some would-be rapists. Her first words to him<BR>
was to thank me for what I'd showed her and how. No one questions me on my<BR>
method anymore...<BR>
<BR>
>Non-military characters and training.  Characters who have not<BR>
received their training from the armed forces, or such, may have very<BR>
different reactions to situtations, even if they have received<BR>
training in civilian life. <<BR>
<BR>
Definitely.<BR>
In case its not well known, police forces and military forces absolutely do<BR>
NOT hire outside the profession for unarmed combat instructors. Even though<BR>
I've had cops tell me they like my moves, I'd never get a job at a police<BR>
academy.<BR>
<BR>
>The most impressive person I have ever seen, as far as demonstrating<BR>
the effectiveness of martial arts/unarmed combat is an older<BR>
gentleman by the name of Jess  - whose last name has fallen off the<BR>
edge of my brain at the moment (I'm sure some one on this list will<BR>
remind me).  <<BR>
<BR>
I saw  Florendo Visitacion about a year before he died, A small, withered<BR>
little old Filipino man who moved like water flows and simply touched and<BR>
made people yelp. My instructor's instructor, Nick Adler, came up again the<BR>
other night. 61, diabetic, and moves faster than I ever have. He does this<BR>
neat little bit with a backfist. You are just standing there with him about<BR>
4 feet away, and suddenly this white "thing" is in your face. Then you<BR>
realize its his hand. Then there is the retired head of the system who had 2<BR>
strokes, Angi Uezu. I saw him about a year and half after that. He did kata<BR>
better than a lot of 20 years old in perfect health.<BR>
<BR>
>Old age, treachery, skill, and a sense of humor.  I want him on my side.<<BR>
<BR>
Damn straight.<BR>
<BR>
>The Bronx! No wonder you learned martial arts.  I am here in Oregon, the<BR>
land of legal switchblades, silencers and machineguns (not to mention real<BR>
live anarchists).  Where concealed carry permits are a right, not a<BR>
privilege. I have my S&W 342 loaded with Glasers in my pocket even as I type<BR>
this.  And no, I have never logged.<BR>
<BR>
Oregon, not quite the law level of a starport, but we're working on it.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "From the sticks" Glenn<<BR>
<BR>
Our Mayor keeps trying to figure out if he can push our law level up to the<BR>
alphabet end of the scale. And we have more varieties of political extremist<BR>
than you can shake a stick at. (Starting with me of course.)<BR>
As for me, I actually learned martial arts so I could spar with a friend<BR>
better. I was already a passable untrained brawler though I'd given up<BR>
fighting some time ago. Along the way it turned out I was really good at<BR>
teaching it. One of those weird real life bits.<BR>
ObTrav: Obviously I "retired" from my old profession and started a new one.<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Given the vast variety in law and tech levels, I think a large<BR>
segment of the population would still train unarmed or with "ancient<BR>
weapons". (The technical translation of Kobudo.) Daggers go almost<BR>
everywhere and hands go absolutely everywhere. Maybe this means Merchants<BR>
will have superior skill with them because of this and the various systems<BR>
of the future will be company based rather than family or nationality based.<BR>
Hmmm...<BR>
"Your Tukera Gung Fu is no good. My Oberlindes Jiu-jitsu will destroy you."<BR>
"Come on then, and we will see. You will learn what happens to those who<BR>
trifle with us."<BR>
<cue Hong Kong Action Theater sound effects><BR>
(OK, 2 AM. I'll go now before this gets out of hand. :))<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:11:22 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
on 6/25/00 1:05 PM, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glen wrote:<BR>
>> What makes something 'canon'?<BR>
> <BR>
> Geez!  Okay, here's my understanding: the short  answer  is  that<BR>
> anything published is canon.  But ...<BR>
> <BR>
> - GDW once ruled that anything in JTAS/Challenge magazine was not<BR>
> canon  but  an  official  variant.  However,  this  is  usually<BR>
> ignored and JTAS/Challenge material is generally considered  to<BR>
> be canon.<BR>
> <BR>
> - Canon status has been removed from some non-GDW  products  (ie.<BR>
> anything by Paranoia Press  or  Judges  Guild).  Other  non-GDW<BR>
> material is debatable  ...  Imperium  Games  products  are,  in<BR>
> general, considered canon.<BR>
<BR>
Paranoia press not canon!  Arrrgh!  I love SORAG and Scouts and Assassins.<BR>
I'm modeling my SolSec stuff after SORAG.  A very different group, though.<BR>
<BR>
> - Within  the  body   of   Traveller   canon   there   are   many<BR>
> contradictions ... leading to canon wars on the TML.  The first<BR>
> *great* schism was the introduction of  TNE,  GT  *could*  have<BR>
> caused another  great  schism  (but  at  the  moment  relations<BR>
> between the two camps are cordial).<BR>
<BR>
Hey, I'm still in CT.  I guess that makes me sorta like the Catholic church-<BR>
these newfangled religions will never catch on. MT, TNE, T4.  It's all<BR>
heresy.  Burn the buggars at the stake.<BR>
<BR>
Marc, can we please have an inquisition?  PLEEEAAASE!<BR>
<BR>
> (And, just like religion, this can be a touchy subject ... so I'm<BR>
> off to put on some asbestos underwear.)<BR>
<BR>
Won't that chafe?<BR>
<BR>
Tod "prefers soft cotton" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:12:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Titan A.E. brief<BR>
<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com <GypsyComet@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Anyone seen this yet? Good? Bad? Indifferent? Traveller-relatable?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Yes, I saw it today.  Great movie.  Very Traveller-relatable.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:29:39 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/25/00 10:59 PM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> thing. Smacking someone in padding is simply not the same. I have heard of<BR>
> one instructor who has people gouge grapes out of small holes to simulate<BR>
> eyes. Actually, as mentioned with firing a gun in combat, the hardest part<BR>
<BR>
Yup, I just hear about an instructor who has his assistant strap an orange<BR>
over the eye.  When the student gouges the 'eye' the assistant scream and<BR>
howls in pain.  I'm told it's quite disconcerting.<BR>
<BR>
I also heard about a sniper/counter sniper class for law enforcement.  They<BR>
fire at mannequins.  The instructors use a cabbage filled with ketchup in<BR>
the head, to simulate the aftermath of a head shot, just so trainees won't<BR>
freak if they have to shoot for real, especially if they have multiple<BR>
targets.<BR>
<BR>
Going back to the eye thing, that's one thing I remember seeing and hearing<BR>
about.  There was always lots of talk about eye strike/gouges.  I never<BR>
actually heard of one happening.  This includes my brief stint as a 'tough<BR>
guy' as well as a few years working in a hospital.  Poking someone's<BR>
eye--Ick!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: Given the vast variety in law and tech levels, I think a large<BR>
> segment of the population would still train unarmed or with "ancient<BR>
> weapons". (The technical translation of Kobudo.) Daggers go almost<BR>
> everywhere and hands go absolutely everywhere. Maybe this means Merchants<BR>
> will have superior skill with them because of this and the various systems<BR>
> of the future will be company based rather than family or nationality based.<BR>
<BR>
Given the tradition of brawling in the Merchant Marine, this makes good<BR>
sense.<BR>
<BR>
> Hmmm...<BR>
> "Your Tukera Gung Fu is no good. My Oberlindes Jiu-jitsu will destroy you."<BR>
> "Come on then, and we will see. You will learn what happens to those who<BR>
> trifle with us."<BR>
> <cue Hong Kong Action Theater sound effects><BR>
> (OK, 2 AM. I'll go now before this gets out of hand. :))<BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
Ok, now you've made me hurt myself.  The only thing missing is bad dubbing.<BR>
But you have a point.  IMTU, the MegaCorps can be like superfamilies.  The<BR>
company oath, the company song, the company martial art... I love it.  If<BR>
you have generations of families whole all work for Ling or Naasirka or<BR>
whoever, maybe they have all been taught by the same master.  The family art<BR>
becomes the Family art.  If MegaCorps become cultures unto themselves, why<BR>
not have their own style?  And as you say, a merchant may often go where<BR>
guns and knives are verbotten.  The best martial arts always develop where<BR>
weapons are poor or forbidden.  Look at all the japanese weapons derived<BR>
from agricultural tools.  Warriors used the sword, or better yet the bow and<BR>
pike.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "laughing my ass off" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:47:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Titan A.E. brief<BR>
<BR>
>Anyone seen this yet? Good? Bad? Indifferent? Traveller-relatable?<BR>
><BR>
>Keep the spoilers to a minimum please...<BR>
><BR>
>GC<BR>
<BR>
Saw it last night.  Excellent imagery, but a very strange animation style.<BR>
I had a major problem with one of the major plot points being illogical,<BR>
but other than that a good movie.  Some good idea's for Traveller locations.<BR>
<BR>
My advice watch it, enjoy it, and ignore the plot.<BR>
<BR>
Now what might really make an interesting Traveller scenario is "Chicken<BR>
Run" :^)  I saw it tonite, and it's pretty good!<BR>
<BR>
			Zane<BR>
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |<BR>
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |<BR>
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |<BR>
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+<BR>
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |<BR>
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |<BR>
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 00:06:23 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Portland TML Rendezvous Clarification<BR>
<BR>
This is for the big Portland, i.e. Portland Oregon.<BR>
<BR>
I case this wasn't clear, we are thinking about a 'meet and greet'.  A<BR>
chance to meet other Travellers in your area.  Maybe some gaming.  We can<BR>
figure out what everyone's interest is.<BR>
<BR>
Let me know if you might be interested.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:01:32 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
On 06/25/00 at 02:08 PM,  "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Which is why I would definitely second Fred and say it should have been<BR>
>called "Unarmed Combat".<BR>
<BR>
>>However, I agree that the level of abstraction in Traveller makes such<BR>
>distinctions largely meaningless.<<BR>
<BR>
Let me ask a question here....<BR>
<BR>
Suppose Joe and Bill are about to fight.  Joe has Brawling-2 and<BR>
Bill has Martial Arts-2.  How do you game it?  Does Bill have an<BR>
advantage?  Does Joe?  Do they match up equally in an opposed<BR>
contest of skills?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:17:43 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
On 06/25/00 at 09:56 PM,  red@europa.com said:<BR>
<BR>
>>How may times have you hit someone in the bare face with a bare fist <BR>
>>and not felt the pain of bones breaking or coming close to breaking?<BR>
<BR>
>Never hit anyone in the face with your hand.<BR>
<BR>
Speaking from limited, but painful, experience, "Hurts doesn't it?" <g>   <BR>
<BR>
Has anyone ever had a PC hurt their hand from throwing a punch?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:16:43 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 12:01 AM, eris@pcola.gulf.net at eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 06/25/00 at 02:08 PM,  "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com> said:<BR>
> <BR>
>> Which is why I would definitely second Fred and say it should have been<BR>
>> called "Unarmed Combat".<BR>
> <BR>
>>> However, I agree that the level of abstraction in Traveller makes such<BR>
>> distinctions largely meaningless.<<BR>
> <BR>
> Let me ask a question here....<BR>
> <BR>
> Suppose Joe and Bill are about to fight.  Joe has Brawling-2 and<BR>
> Bill has Martial Arts-2.  How do you game it?  Does Bill have an<BR>
> advantage?  Does Joe?  Do they match up equally in an opposed<BR>
> contest of skills?<BR>
> <BR>
> Eris<BR>
<BR>
I actually distinguish between the two.  Since we view brawling a coming<BR>
from life experience, I let a brawler use his level of brawling as a<BR>
reduction in damage.  He's tough and rolls with the punches,  The martial<BR>
artist has enhanced damage.  Pretty much everthing else evens out.<BR>
<BR>
Brawler :"Geez, this guy hits hard"<BR>
Kung fu master: "Damn, this guy can take it.  and he's sneaky"<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2660</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, June 26 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2660<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
: Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Icosahedronic Projection<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: Icosahedronic Projection<BR>
RE: What is canon<BR>
re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
Re: IT Geeks<BR>
RE: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
RE: Canon<BR>
[Fwd: Traveller News Service]<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:18:16 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 12:17 AM, eris@pcola.gulf.net at eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 06/25/00 at 09:56 PM,  red@europa.com said:<BR>
> <BR>
>>> How may times have you hit someone in the bare face with a bare fist<BR>
>>> and not felt the pain of bones breaking or coming close to breaking?<BR>
> <BR>
>> Never hit anyone in the face with your hand.<BR>
> <BR>
> Speaking from limited, but painful, experience, "Hurts doesn't it?" <g><BR>
> <BR>
> Has anyone ever had a PC hurt their hand from throwing a punch?<BR>
> <BR>
> Eris<BR>
<BR>
Often.  My payers have learned the adage "Never hit someone in the face with<BR>
your hand--that's what stick and rocks are for".<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:24:25 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: : Re: Marine Cutlass<BR>
<BR>
>From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
<BR>
>Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> In ordinary situations like robberies and arguments that<BR>
>> end up in a fight, combat often occurs at very close<BR>
>> ranges.  Guns and blades have advantages and<BR>
>> disadvantages a such ranges.  Some blades may be better <BR>
>> than some guns in that case (Sykes-Fairbairn vs. Garand,<BR>
<BR>
>> for an egregious example).<BR>
<BR>
You replied:<BR>
><BR>
>Not so egregious! Could you explain?<BR>
<BR>
The example is egregious because the two weapons are so<BR>
different in their effective ranges.  (The M-1 Garand<BR>
rifle, standard issue of the United States military forces<BR>
during WW2, is a rather long rifle, while the<BR>
Sykes-Fairbairn is a fighting knife developed for (and I<BR>
think by) the British commandos at about the same time.  If<BR>
the combatants are very close, the one with the<BR>
Sykes-Fairbairn can probably connect before the one with<BR>
the Garand can bring the barrel to bear.  As the range<BR>
increases, the Garand becomes the one more likely to hit<BR>
first; after all, it can hit at ranges well beyond anyone's<BR>
ability to throw a knife.)  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 02:44:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/26/00 1:18 AM, webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> My players have learned the adage "Never hit someone in the face with<BR>
> your hand--that's what stick and rocks are for".<BR>
> <BR>
> Tod<BR>
<BR>
Yes, hitting somebody in the "stick and rocks" usually drops 'em quick. ;)<BR>
<BR>
My two credits? Brawling and Martial Arts need to have different<BR>
difficulties in advancement if you really want be realistic, but CT doesn't<BR>
work that way. The World of Darkness sourcebook "Combat" has some great<BR>
ideas for those who want to add more detail to their game. Of course the<BR>
mystic bits won't fit in Traveller, but there is very little of that.<BR>
<BR>
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
<BR>
BZAT: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/index.html<BR>
Lanth6: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Lanth6/Main.html<BR>
E-mail: xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:06:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Icosahedronic Projection<BR>
<BR>
I've worked up a ten-to-one scale world map that flips the orientation of<BR>
the smaller hexes ninety degrees. It is based off of the Trav standard (not<BR>
GT) and has no partial spaces, as someone mentioned not liking these because<BR>
they often get overlooked. Even though I only used a four colour palette, it<BR>
turns out to be a *very* large (6942 x 3179) map. I'll put a link to it on<BR>
my upcoming mapping page, but until then you can see it at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/IMGs/MAPS/ScaledWorld.GIF<BR>
<BR>
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
<BR>
BZAT: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/index.html<BR>
Lanth6: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Lanth6/Main.html<BR>
E-mail: xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 00:21:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>ObTrav: Errrr...let me think a bit.<BR>
><BR>
> Non-military characters and training.  Characters who have not <BR>
> received their training from the armed forces, or such, may have very <BR>
> different reactions to situtations, even if they have received <BR>
> training in civilian life.  You're character has unarmed combat, but <BR>
> why?  And from where?  Have they ever actually HIT anyone?  For real? <BR>
> Killed or really broken some one?  What will their reaction be if <BR>
> this happens?  I've played characters with military backgrounds, <BR>
> criminal backgrounds, and neither, some with brawling or unarmed <BR>
> combat skills from all three.  I don't play them as having the exact <BR>
> same attitudes, due to different backgrounds and training.  Even some <BR>
> one with military training may have a differing attitude and reaction <BR>
> if, say they're Navy as opposed to Marines. (I've been the lone Navy <BR>
> character amid the Marines.  Argh.)  All fun gaming fodder.<BR>
<BR>
A bit of reality. I have actually *tried* to severely injure/kill<BR>
someone. Fortunately for all concerned, they were able to out run me. <BR>
<BR>
It was back in grade school. A neighborhood bully pushed me too far,<BR>
and there was an axe handy...<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure if I could do that *now* as after I calmed down I was more<BR>
than a bit upset about what I'd *tried* to do. I haven't let my<BR>
berserker side out in the last 35 years...<BR>
<BR>
I *think* I could shoot someone or disable them with some other weapon<BR>
if I had enough reason to. I'm also sure that the aftermath would be<BR>
pretty unpleasant even *without* the legal hassles...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 00:27:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Matthew Bond <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
><BR>
>>Is that related to the "Way of the Exploding Planet"?<BR>
>><BR>
>>Or is that the Way of the Spofulam... Ditzijutsu!<BR>
>><BR>
>><whistles nonchalantly...><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Never joke about the Spofulam.  Never.  You never know when she will<BR>
> appear.  Hey, isn't that Ditzi right behind you?<BR>
><BR>
>     I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Given the situation, shouldn't that be "pieces". :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 00:29:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> "What is the most effective street fighting style?" (this was at a<BR>
> dojo that had several masters of different arts all teaching - very<BR>
> cool). <BR>
<BR>
I believe National Lampoon called it "Go-hun", the way of the swift<BR>
leaden pellet...<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 00:34:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/25/00 8:05 PM, Matthew W. Helton at mwhelton@cox-internet.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Be careful making your own bullets from barstock: PMC had to pull their<BR>
>> Solid Copper Tube ammo line (I forget the name) because of BATF objections<BR>
>> regarding what constitutes "Armor-Piercing" construction.<BR>
><BR>
> We did this a while ago.  Trust me, I am familiar with the regs as I am<BR>
> married to an agent.<BR>
<BR>
Ask her what the regs would say about a home-built "gauss rifle", will<BR>
you? <BR>
<BR>
>> so much the maximum rate of expansion: it's the peak pressures. ETC (Plasma<BR>
>> injected, excited liquid, whatever you want to call it) rounds promise a<BR>
>> pretty effective alternative, though.<BR>
><BR>
> Yeah, I played around with CAP (Combustion Augmented Plasma as they knew it<BR>
> a Hughes) a while ago.  Way cool. 5.56mm 55gn bullet at almost double the<BR>
> velocity of the M98 out of a slightly modified Colt barrel.  About the same<BR>
> peak pressure and all with water as a propellant.  Plasma stimulated working<BR>
> fluids are THE way to go.  Now if they can just lick the battery problem.<BR>
<BR>
We need Shipstones *badly*... :-)<BR>
<BR>
>> Yeah, I knew they were making the shotgun flechettes on nail header<BR>
>> machines: sort of a two step stamping / drawing operation. I used to make<BR>
>> steel shot for Daisy Mfg.; I know ALL about headers. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> I earlier made the comment about all the IT people on this list.  Seems that<BR>
> there's as many major barrel suckers.  I got my start at Velet cartridge<BR>
> co., If anyone remembers them nowadays.  In my spare time, I'm down at PAWS<BR>
> (Police Automatics Weapons Service) playing with the occasional gun project.<BR>
> I wish the gun industry paid as well as IT.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'm just a very much amateur, but I have the SKS, a .22, and a<BR>
couple of pellet guns (one of which *looks* pretty scary :-).<BR>
<BR>
I used to do "microcomputer support" for a local manufacturing concern.<BR>
Up to 500 PCs, several Novell servers, and a few other odities. <BR>
<BR>
So I guess I "sort of" qualify for both groups. <BR>
<BR>
BTW, my lease says this building is Law Level F or so (no weapons<BR>
allowed on premises) so my guns live with a friend. <sigh><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:32:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Icosahedronic Projection<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/26/00 3:06 AM, xrp@sierratel.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Even though I only used a four colour palette, it<BR>
> turns out to be a *very* large (6942 x 3179) map.<BR>
<BR>
On my drive it turns out to be 760 K, or 772,219 bytes. I did not mean to<BR>
imply that ones palette would affect the dimensions. That would be silly.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:43:45 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:<BR>
> > (And, just like religion, this can be a touchy subject ... so<BR>
> > I'm off to put on some asbestos underwear.)<BR>
> <BR>
> Please, use Nomex instead. We wouldn't want you getting cancer<BR>
> of anything important. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Good to  know  ...  I  thought  the  problem  with  asbestos  was<BR>
particles getting into the  lungs.  But  I  didn't  know  it  was<BR>
*generally* carcinogenic.<BR>
<BR>
The 'professional builder' who built and owned my  parents  house<BR>
before they bought it used unpainted sheets of pale blue asbestos<BR>
instead of gyproc for the garage ceiling.  How bad is that?  (And<BR>
since the same guy built the whole house  I'm  wondering  if  the<BR>
"painted gyproc walls" inside the  house  are  actually  asbestos<BR>
too, albeit sealed in paint.)<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:23:37 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
<BR>
Silence indicative of OT'ness, rather than agreement...I've been trying that<BR>
more lately.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:23:03 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: IT Geeks<BR>
<BR>
Sun, Mac, PC (when forced)<BR>
Solaris, MacOS, Windows/DOS (when forced; is a pattern developing?)<BR>
Perl, Sybase, C, various shells, others going way back to Burroughs<BR>
Algol<BR>
HTML, database design and admin, system admin, troublemaker<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:50:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, 25 June 2000 1:44 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > I would think that a life support hit is more likely to cause a<BR>
> fire due to<BR>
> > ruptured oxygen tanks, with the oxygen sprayed into a "hot" compartment<BR>
> > items would burn quite fiercely, most items, including metals are<BR>
> > combustible under the right circumstances, this may produce,<BR>
> for awhile the<BR>
> > hollywood burning ships appearance. As well as telling other<BR>
> vessels that<BR>
> > you have a little problem.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually, no.<BR>
><BR>
> A fire, especially a *metal* fire being fed by an oxygen jet looks more<BR>
> like a magnesium flare than like any "normal" sort of fire. Watch<BR>
> someone using a cutting torch sometime. That's how such devices work,<BR>
> they use a regular oxy-acetylene flame to get the metal hot enough to<BR>
> ignite, then you hit the "trigger" and feed it a jet of pure oxygen.<BR>
> The jet *burns* the metal out of the way.<BR>
><BR>
> Blinding white light, and if the metal is iron or steel, *huge* numbers<BR>
> of sparks.<BR>
><BR>
Well I don't know, a flare coming out of a ship should show up nicely on<BR>
sensors result "Target that explosion".<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:43:11 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Canon<BR>
<BR>
Loren wrote:<BR>
> TOd,<BR>
> >  So who decides?<BR>
> <BR>
> When you find out, let me know . . . I thought I had <BR>
> something to do with it, but some don't seem to think so.<BR>
<BR>
One of the first things I ever noticed about RPGs  (or  at  least<BR>
the more popular RPGs) is  a  slightly  'odd'  attitude  held  by<BR>
gamers.  While the lawyers may  say  that  ownership  of  a  game<BR>
system resides with the copyright holders (ie.  the  publishers),<BR>
gamers tend to see the game as  theirs  ...  and  'tolerate'  the<BR>
existence of the publisher because it is  mutually  advantageous.<BR>
(This became readily apparent when TSR took issue  with  all  the<BR>
unofficial D&D web sites out there.)  So while not  *legally*  so<BR>
gamers treat RPGs as if they were "open source" (and I don't just<BR>
mean all the 'IMTU' stuff).<BR>
<BR>
Thus in answer to your question I would  say  that  you  (Loren),<BR>
along with Marc, could say what was canon ... but your  decisions<BR>
are subject to a sort of ratification process  by  the  Traveller<BR>
gaming community.<BR>
<BR>
(I pass no judgement on this phenomenon,  merely  report  what  I<BR>
have seen.  And perhaps others have seen it differently.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:45:25 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: [Fwd: Traveller News Service]<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
The question then becomes:<BR>
<BR>
What TL are the mentioned artifacts?<BR>
<BR>
<<pulls pin, throws question, ducks>> <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
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Received from Gampin/Deneb, 267-1117<BR>
Archaeologists from the Imperial University of Alpha Cygni excitedly<BR>
announced what they called "a major find" on this world at the spinward edge of Deneb sector. Evidence of human habitation from the Second Imperium was discovered in the Hanisan Canyon region of Gampin.<BR>
According to Professor Eirik Lehoff, "The site is possibly the remains of a military encampment from around -1800 or so. We've found a number of artifacts -- weapons and vacc suits mostly -- that support this hypothesis. What's truly remarkable about it is that this supports the theory that exploration was ongoing even in the dying days of the Rule of Man."<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:51:58 -0600<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
red@europa.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Never hit anyone in the face with your hand.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Oh, there are plenty of ways to hit someone in the face with a bare hand.<BR>
Three I can think of offhand:<BR>
<BR>
a) sharp jab with fingertip into eyeball<BR>
b) edge of straightened hand into underside of nose, at about a 4 degree<BR>
upward angle<BR>
c) two fingers, one in each nostil, pulling sharply<BR>
<BR>
I don't claim to be the martial arts expert that Samuel Weiss is, but I've<BR>
done a fair amount of jiu-jitsu myself. In our dojo, the rule of thumb was:<BR>
never get your hand near the other guy's teeth.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Erwin Fritz<BR>
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.<BR>
http://www.glja.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:26:18 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 1:34 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Ask her what the regs would say about a home-built "gauss rifle", will<BR>
> you? <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
We've Discussed stuff like this often.  One of my project s a .54 caliber<BR>
air rifle fed from scuba tanks.  Kind of a modern day Contriner.  The answer<BR>
is, neither it nor a gauss rifle under federal law are firearms, and hence<BR>
not regulated.<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, my lease says this building is Law Level F or so (no weapons<BR>
> allowed on premises) so my guns live with a friend. <sigh><BR>
<BR>
Well, there's something just wrong about that.  I tend to ignore stuff like<BR>
that.  If I were concerned about my personal safety, I'd keep a gun and just<BR>
not mention it.  At my old place of employ they decided the weren't going to<BR>
allow guns and came out with thing for use to sign, saying we agreed with<BR>
the new policy.<BR>
<BR>
Neglected to sign the thing.  Finally, someone noticed and tried to make me<BR>
sign it.  I said I opposed on philosophical ground, but I would sign it if<BR>
the company would guarantee my personal safety while on company property and<BR>
on company time.  Otherwise, they were free to talk to my lawyer, or they<BR>
could fire me (I had some advantage in that we had en emplyee attacke in the<BR>
parking lot.  The company's response to this was to get rid of the security<BR>
guard, removing the only vestige of protection for a primarily female work<BR>
force.  I also had copies of dozens of complaints from myself and fellow<BR>
employees regarding management failure to repair light and take other steps<BR>
to improve security in what was a fairly high crime area.<BR>
<BR>
What happened?  The policy died.  I don't have a personal lawyer as such,<BR>
but when I pointed out the complaints, and the stink I was ready to raise, I<BR>
think they decided to drop the whole issue.<BR>
<BR>
Restrictive covenants are another matter that are open to legal attack.<BR>
Unless you are in a federal HA, you can usually win these thing.  The trick<BR>
is to not sign any agreements at the start.  A buddy of mine likes to draw<BR>
line through any items in contract he doesn't like.  It helps that we are<BR>
both sought after IT folks, I suppose and can afford to work/live somewhere<BR>
else.  If it really bothers you, ignore it.  You can always claim stupidity<BR>
later.  Should you run into, you can always call NRA, CRKBA etc.  Usually<BR>
there is someone who can help make your landlord's life hell.  Especially if<BR>
you complain in writing to the management about security problems in<BR>
writing.  Make sure to save copies.  Inform the management, that as part of<BR>
your lawsuit you will be admitting said complaints. No one likes to be sued,<BR>
or even the threat of being sue.  Note that this doesn't always work, and<BR>
should be a last resort.<BR>
<BR>
Like I said, stupidity is often the best defense.  "Gun aren't allowed.<BR>
Gee, I'm sorry, I guess I forgot".  It's not like you can be arrested for<BR>
it.  And getting someone evicted is a real pain in the butt.<BR>
<BR>
Or you could get a cap and ball revolver to keep around the place.  Hey, the<BR>
federal government says they are not firearms.<BR>
<BR>
Just my $.02.  Way OT, so enough said.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:27:42 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 1:29 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
>> "What is the most effective street fighting style?" (this was at a<BR>
>> dojo that had several masters of different arts all teaching - very<BR>
>> cool). <BR>
> <BR>
> I believe National Lampoon called it "Go-hun", the way of the swift<BR>
> leaden pellet...<BR>
> <BR>
> :-)<BR>
<BR>
I thought it was Bang Fu<BR>
<BR>
Aims gun at target "BANG!"<BR>
Blows smoke from muzzle "Foo"<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:15:11 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote,<BR>
>Going back to the eye thing, that's one thing I remember seeing and hearing<BR>
about.  There was always lots of talk about eye strike/gouges.  I never<BR>
actually heard of one happening.  This includes my brief stint as a 'tough<BR>
guy' as well as a few years working in a hospital.  Poking someone's<BR>
eye--Ick!<<BR>
<BR>
Heh. That's why I tell people to try a rake across the eyebrows instead if<BR>
they can. Having had my eyebrow torn open once and felt the flood it<BR>
produces I know it will be quite effective in blinding someone as well as<BR>
having a significantly lower squick factor.<BR>
<BR>
>Ok, now you've made me hurt myself.  The only thing missing is bad<BR>
dubbing.<<BR>
<BR>
Tee hee.<BR>
At least I didn't add in Hiver Kung Fu Theater.<BR>
<BR>
>Look at all the japanese weapons derived from agricultural tools. <<BR>
<BR>
*snort choke*<BR>
<BR>
Okinawan. Not Japanese, Okinawan!<BR>
<BR>
But this would be a project for the GURPS people here, designing the<BR>
MegaCorp martial arts systems and such. Meanwhile I need to plot including<BR>
it in my CT game now.<BR>
<BR>
Eris wrote,<BR>
>Suppose Joe and Bill are about to fight.  Joe has Brawling-2 and<BR>
Bill has Martial Arts-2.  How do you game it?  Does Bill have an<BR>
advantage?  Does Joe?  Do they match up equally in an opposed<BR>
contest of skills?<<BR>
<BR>
The system should not actively distinguish the two. A well trained martial<BR>
artist who can't pick up a chair isn't. A brawler who is that good has his<BR>
own system.<BR>
<BR>
Back to Tod,<BR>
>Brawler :"Geez, this guy hits hard"<BR>
Kung fu master: "Damn, this guy can take it.  and he's sneaky"<<BR>
<BR>
This could work too, but it begins to fail when you get boxers who train to<BR>
take blows and legbreakers who can inflict serious pain.<BR>
<BR>
Erwin Fritz wrote,<BR>
>Oh, there are plenty of ways to hit someone in the face with a bare hand.<BR>
Three I can think of offhand:<<BR>
<BR>
True. Technically it should be "Never punch someone in the face". Many<BR>
people teach that however, especially shots to the jaw. Which while it can<BR>
knock someone out quite nicely can also shatter your hand even more nicely.<BR>
Offhand, I can think of about 20 ways to strike someone in the head with my<BR>
open hand. Most of them lethal.<BR>
<BR>
>I don't claim to be the martial arts expert that Samuel Weiss is, but I've<BR>
done a fair amount of jiu-jitsu myself. In our dojo, the rule of thumb was:<BR>
never get your hand near the other guy's teeth.<<BR>
<BR>
I teach a full segment on biting and countering being bit. Still, it is<BR>
always a last resort.<BR>
V   V<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:35:36 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 8:15 AM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I don't claim to be the martial arts expert that Samuel Weiss is, but I've<BR>
> done a fair amount of jiu-jitsu myself. In our dojo, the rule of thumb was:<BR>
> never get your hand near the other guy's teeth.<<BR>
> <BR>
> I teach a full segment on biting and countering being bit. Still, it is<BR>
> always a last resort.<BR>
> V   V<BR>
> <BR>
> ^^^^^<BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
Getting back to the bit on Vilani dietary habits.  "Don't fear the man who<BR>
bites you.  Fear the one who bites you, chews and swallows".<BR>
<BR>
Tod "too tough and stringy to eat -- really" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2660<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2661</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, June 26 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2661<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Model Mugging (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
RE: Model Mugging (now way OT)<BR>
[none]<BR>
TNS latest<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
not so small arms<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: Re: Canon<BR>
RE: not so small arms<BR>
RE: Canon<BR>
The TML<BR>
Re: M1<BR>
Possible martial arts variation within ACQ<BR>
RE: M1<BR>
Re: Culture and war in the Imperium <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:47:29 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Culture and war in the Imperium (OT at this point, I believe)<BR>
<BR>
And even if you were there, what you know is still only one of the 'truths'<BR>
that is out there because even your buddies at the same fire base will have<BR>
different truths than you do.<BR>
As far as the media coverage being politically motivated, I won't bet on<BR>
that being too explicit a motivation. The media, being mostly<BR>
corporate-based, is in it for the money. Salacious coverage, sensational<BR>
events all generate viewers, market share, and revenue. Remember the saying<BR>
"If it bleeds, it leads." <BR>
Some ways of looking at the world do ascribe a general political context to<BR>
all of that, sure. The media does help define people's perception of world<BR>
events. Sometimes, it IS clearly politically motivated (Hearst and his<BR>
yellow journalism early in the 20th century come to mind). And the memories<BR>
of those perceptions can last until the media story becomes the whole of the<BR>
truth. That's kind of sad given the economic interest of the media<BR>
The media can also be pulled around by the nose by people with political<BR>
motivations too. In a more recent war, the media had coverage of a Kuwaiti<BR>
woman's tearful eye-witness testimony about Iraqi atrocities even though she<BR>
was a diplomat's daughter and hadn't been in the country since months before<BR>
the invasion and had been coached by a PR firm. Most of the mainstream media<BR>
didn't question that too much and the complacent public won't do so either<BR>
and thus another truth is manufactured and won't be easily dispelled.<BR>
<BR>
Related to Traveller:<BR>
Media in the 3rd Imperium. The Imperial Propaganda Ministry (whoops) that<BR>
should be Imperial News and Media Ministry has to spin its wars somehow. The<BR>
social manipulation of the psionic suppressions provides the base of<BR>
Imperial societies resistance to the Zhodani, now write a 100 word essay on<BR>
how you would sell the 4th and 5th Frontier Wars to the public.<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com]<BR>
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 4:10 PM<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2656<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I was specifically pointing out that unless<BR>
you were there (I don't mean Viet Nam specifically, I'm using "there"<BR>
generically) you will never know the real truth of what happened. I have<BR>
been "there" on several occasions and my memories certainly don't jive with<BR>
present day accountings. You can't always believe everything you read and<BR>
news clips can certainly be presented out of context to skew people's views<BR>
of what happened. In the case we were using, Vietnam Vets getting spat on,<BR>
I'm sure that it happened a number of times. This is especially true if the<BR>
situation was rigged to put the two different factions together at the wrong<BR>
time. Most Viet Nam Vets that I know have come to the conclusion that what<BR>
happened there was wrong but they were not necessarily involved in the<BR>
actions brought to light. Hell most of the people there were your next door<BR>
neighbors, your cousins, your brothers, high school buddies, etc. "Hippies"<BR>
(I use the term lightly) filmed spitting at guys in uniform were I'm sure<BR>
"egged on" before the GI's even showed up. We'll never know the full truth<BR>
about the thought processes news men used to put those shots on the late<BR>
news. I still believe it was politically motivated even when its repeated in<BR>
history shows today. It certainly didn't happen that often that I can<BR>
remember and its a crying shame that its remembered in the context its used<BR>
in today.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:07:17 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Samuel D. Weiss wrote:<BR>
> Frank Pitt wrote,<BR>
> >I disagree. Anyone actually _trained_ to punch will be better at it than a<BR>
> similar level of skill brawler who has never been taught to punch properly.<BR>
> <BR>
> Just remember, boxing and wrestling are martial arts too.<BR>
> <BR>
> Most RPG rules that specifiy a difference between "martial arts" and<BR>
> "brawling" do so for this reason. It doesn't mean that a brawler can't punch<BR>
> at all, but if he's never been taught to punch properly, his punches won't<BR>
> be effective.<<BR>
> <BR>
> Which I would represent with different skill levels. My rant is against<BR>
> using an entirely different system for "martial arts" vs. brawling. I fully<BR>
> agree that boxing and wrestling are martial arts. The fact is, a lot of<BR>
> games that use different systems don't recognize that.<BR>
<BR>
I really like the way Champions does martial arts. Essentially, as with<BR>
everything in Champs, you buy the effects you want and then call it whatever<BR>
you like.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:28:41 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> on 6/25/00 12:19 PM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
> > That isn't very real. How many muggers wear extensive padding? How may times<BR>
> > have you hit someone in the bare face with a bare fist and not felt the pain<BR>
> > of bones breaking or coming close to breaking? Realism would be beating up<BR>
> > sides of beef like Rocky, clawing the eyeballs of sheep heads, breaking leg<BR>
> > bones and the like. Not smacking around someone in enough padding for 10<BR>
> > beds who really won't smack you in the head and grab you in an totally<BR>
> > offensive manner at the drop of a hat.<BR>
<BR>
While the padded muggers in Model Mugging don't go for disabling attacks<BR>
themselves, they *do* grab in an offensive manner, as well as talk trash<BR>
to the students.<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, the moves that my wife was taught were very simple strikes and<BR>
> such. [snip for brevity]<BR>
> <BR>
> All of the students with the exception of my wife had been victims of sexual<BR>
> or other physical attacks, and the muggers put a lot of realism into their<BR>
> assaults (to the point that my wife commented that many of the students were<BR>
> brought to tears recalling their previous real assaults).  The point was<BR>
> they were taught to overcome their emotional paralysis and to fight hard and<BR>
> to fight to win. I saw the bruises one of the 'muggers' had despite the<BR>
> suit.<BR>
<BR>
A roommate of mine did a Model Mugging course about 10 years ago, and <BR>
I attended her graduation exercises. What I most remember is that the <BR>
students were learning attitude as much as they were learning technique; <BR>
as Tod points out, "overcoming emotional paralysis" was a big part of it.<BR>
<BR>
Not to get too Oprah-touchy-feely about this, but these were mainly people<BR>
who had never felt like they could defend themselves physically. They <BR>
simply never felt like that was an option available to them before taking<BR>
the course. <BR>
<BR>
In the graduation exercise I saw, each student ultimately did either <BR>
two or three routines, and the students didn't know what exactly what the<BR>
muggers were going to do. In a couple of the cases, upon the approach of <BR>
the muggers, the student managed to intimidate them into retreat without <BR>
any fight at all - simply by making it plain that she was not going to <BR>
be cowed by the simple fact of bulky maleness. <BR>
<BR>
Someone who's had MM and no other training obviously isn't going to be<BR>
able to take a really experienced fighter, even pound for pound, but <BR>
there's a whole class of lowlife who's counting on being able to simply<BR>
intimidate a lone woman into submission. The graduates of MM are, I <BR>
think, well-equipped to deal with those.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:37:34 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>Getting back to the bit on Vilani dietary habits.  "Don't fear the man who<BR>
>bites you.  Fear the one who bites you, chews and swallows".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    So would that make Mike Tyson a Vilani?  *weg*  (Note:  If Mike Tyson<BR>
the Boxer is on the list, I am a big fan of yours & please do not find me &<BR>
beat the cr*p out of me.)<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:41:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Kenjitsu (was: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
<BR>
>>     I bid you peace.<BR>
><BR>
>Given the situation, shouldn't that be "pieces". :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Yes, well I am hopping that Ditzie will not kill him, just scare him.<BR>
    <LL ducks for cover, by hopping into a Patrol Cruiser & jumping 4<BR>
parsecs away.><BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:41:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Model Mugging (now way OT)<BR>
<BR>
> A roommate of mine did a Model Mugging course about 10 years ago, and<BR>
> I attended her graduation exercises. What I most remember is that the<BR>
> students were learning attitude as much as they were learning technique;<BR>
> as Tod points out, "overcoming emotional paralysis" was a big part of it.<BR>
><BR>
> Not to get too Oprah-touchy-feely about this, but these were mainly people<BR>
> who had never felt like they could defend themselves physically. They<BR>
> simply never felt like that was an option available to them before taking<BR>
> the course.<BR>
><BR>
> In the graduation exercise I saw, each student ultimately did either<BR>
> two or three routines, and the students didn't know what exactly what the<BR>
> muggers were going to do. In a couple of the cases, upon the approach of<BR>
> the muggers, the student managed to intimidate them into retreat without<BR>
> any fight at all - simply by making it plain that she was not going to<BR>
> be cowed by the simple fact of bulky maleness.<BR>
><BR>
> Someone who's had MM and no other training obviously isn't going to be<BR>
> able to take a really experienced fighter, even pound for pound, but<BR>
> there's a whole class of lowlife who's counting on being able to simply<BR>
> intimidate a lone woman into submission. The graduates of MM are, I<BR>
> think, well-equipped to deal with those.<BR>
><BR>
> -Russell B<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Another good training point, I though, was that almost all of the attacks<BR>
began with the student already at a disadvantaged position (pinned, held in<BR>
a choke etc.)  Training for real life.  And there is no understating<BR>
teaching either attitude or practiced response.  Confidence comes from<BR>
believe that you can handle the situation.  Success in close combat comes<BR>
from being able to react 'almost without thinking'<BR>
<BR>
As part of my wife law enforcement training, she relates a study of criminal<BR>
and how they chose their victims.  In one part of the study, prisoners were<BR>
shown films of people walking alone, and they were told to pick victims.<BR>
Invariably these are people who look like victims.  People who exude<BR>
confidence are not good targets.  Criminal are looking for the easy mark.<BR>
They are lazy, which is why they are criminals.  Real jobs pay better.<BR>
(obviously I'm painting with a broad brush here).<BR>
<BR>
Interestingly, I have observed the same effect with people I have trained<BR>
with firearms.  It is amazing to me how a shy, small woman, once she finds<BR>
that the can hit a small target with a pistol every time, can begin to<BR>
exhibit a amazing confidence.  This alone will probably deter 90% of would<BR>
be attackers.<BR>
<BR>
I have observed this effect in myself many times as well. I am a competent<BR>
shot, and am always armed.  On several occasions I have found myself in<BR>
'sticky' situations.  Just the knowledge that, if necessary, I can deal with<BR>
the situation gives my a sense of security that I believe others can<BR>
perceive.  Also, the knowledge that escalation can result in very terminal<BR>
results provides me with the restraint to 'let things go', rather than let<BR>
them get out of hand.<BR>
<BR>
Have any other martial artists observed this phenomena?<BR>
<BR>
Tod "packin' iron and not apologizing" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Apologies to Fred "The quotes" Ramen, who got me started on this middle name<BR>
quote thing.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:44:03 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
At 14:13 -0400 25/6/00, AndrewMoffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
>As someone who has done a lot of work on the Interstellar Wars and is still<BR>
>doing more, I thought I might chime in here. The Vilani reputation for<BR>
>brutality and viciousness in war is much overstated in the 3rd Imperium.<BR>
>During the Interstellar Wars period the major differences were that the<BR>
>Vilani did not make any distinction between combatants and non-<BR>
>combatants, and the level at which the Vilani would respect surrender.<BR>
>Also, Vilani attitudes should be put into the context of a power that had<BR>
>had thousands of years of total and overwhelming superiority over any<BR>
>potential enemy.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, you can also argue that the Vilani probably saw the first <BR>
few IWs as a Police Action, and not a war. Had it been a war, the <BR>
Terrans would have fallen.<BR>
<BR>
Rob Prior is demonstrating the Vilani ruthlessness in the first turn <BR>
of the Imperium game we're playing. He has so far invested my colony <BR>
at Agiida with four divisions, and gained orbital superiority. He has <BR>
now proceeded to attack my colony at Barnards, which will only <BR>
survive if I'm lucky. If I hadn't blocked the choke point at Sirius <BR>
I'd also have lost my reserve forces at Proycon.<BR>
<BR>
It'll be Turn 3 (2117 AD) before I can deploy hordes of missile boats <BR>
against him in an attempt to smash his cruiser forces. At the moment <BR>
he's a jump from the poorly defended Sol and Alpha Centuri colonies.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:52:30 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: TNS latest<BR>
<BR>
At 8:00 -0500 26/6/00, webmaster@sjgames.com wrote:<BR>
>Capital/Core                  267-1117<BR>
>Received from Gampin/Deneb, 267-1117<BR>
>Archaeologists from the Imperial University of Alpha Cygni excitedly<BR>
>announced what they called "a major find" on this world at the <BR>
>spinward edge of Deneb sector. Evidence of human habitation from the <BR>
>Second Imperium was discovered in the Hanisan Canyon region of <BR>
>Gampin.<BR>
>According to Professor Eirik Lehoff, "The site is possibly the <BR>
>remains of a military encampment from around -1800 or so. We've <BR>
>found a number of artifacts -- weapons and vacc suits mostly -- that <BR>
>support this hypothesis. What's truly remarkable about it is that <BR>
>this supports the theory that exploration was ongoing even in the <BR>
>dying days of the Rule of Man."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Next they'll say it's TL15!<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:52:58 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com> types:<BR>
>red@europa.com wrote:<BR>
> > Never hit anyone in the face with your hand.<BR>
>Oh, there are plenty of ways to hit someone in the face with a bare hand.<BR>
>Three I can think of offhand:<BR>
>a) sharp jab with fingertip into eyeball<BR>
>b) edge of straightened hand into underside of nose, at about a 4 degree<BR>
>upward angle<BR>
>c) two fingers, one in each nostil, pulling sharply<BR>
>I don't claim to be the martial arts expert that Samuel Weiss is, but I've<BR>
>done a fair amount of jiu-jitsu myself. In our dojo, the rule of thumb was:<BR>
>never get your hand near the other guy's teeth.<BR>
<BR>
The rule of thumb I use is<BR>
a) Hit the soft parts of the body with a fist<BR>
b) Hit the hard parts of the body with the palm or palm edge<BR>
<BR>
There are a lot of small bones in the hand that are too easy to break.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, this is a rule of thumb, and there are exceptions.<BR>
One of the things you learn in MA is how to hit hard things with your fist <BR>
without breaking your hand.<BR>
Given that, I've seen people very experienced in breaking hard objects, <BR>
pound through several stacks of cinder blocks, only to break their hand on <BR>
the last one.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
Exigis Domus Hillaria - http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:56:48 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
>We've Discussed stuff like this often.  One of my project s a .54 caliber<BR>
>air rifle fed from scuba tanks.  Kind of a modern day Contriner.  The answer<BR>
>is, neither it nor a gauss rifle under federal law are firearms, and hence<BR>
>not regulated.<BR>
<BR>
There was a gyrojet rifle produced in the early 60's here in the States.<BR>
It fires a 13mm rocket.  The GCA of 1968 killed it.  The Gun Control Act <BR>
required federal licensing of anything over .50 caliber.  13mm is .51 caliber.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
"Tension, apprehension and dissension have begun." -- Alfred Bester<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:08:47 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
At 4:16 -0400 26/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>Well, since Marc doesn't post here, I guess I'd consider you the closest<BR>
>thing to "keeper of the faith", although since you've gone over to GURPS,<BR>
>some might say you are THE heretic.<BR>
<BR>
Marc *does* post here, you may not have recognised the address, but <BR>
there have been at least two in the last couple of weeks.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:19:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
> The rule of thumb I use is<BR>
> a) Hit the soft parts of the body with a fist<BR>
> b) Hit the hard parts of the body with the palm or palm edge<BR>
><BR>
> There are a lot of small bones in the hand that are too easy to break.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course, this is a rule of thumb, and there are exceptions.<BR>
> One of the things you learn in MA is how to hit hard things with<BR>
> your fist<BR>
> without breaking your hand.<BR>
> Given that, I've seen people very experienced in breaking hard objects,<BR>
> pound through several stacks of cinder blocks, only to break<BR>
> their hand on<BR>
> the last one.<BR>
<BR>
My rule of thumb is nerev hit someone with your had when there'something<BR>
else available.  For this reason I've always thought of any martial arts<BR>
that use the stick as particularly worth noting.  A stick is usually not<BR>
dard to obtain (read that a pool cue, garden hoe, etc.)  A friend's father,<BR>
former Special Forces unarmed combat instructor and judo enthusiast, had<BR>
particular fondness for the rolled up newspaper or magazine.  I knew People<BR>
Magazine could be hazardous, but never imagined that you could quite easily<BR>
kill someone with it.<BR>
<BR>
Fighting arts can take advantage of commonly carried, worn equipment as<BR>
well.  There are some interesting techniques in Fairbairns "Get Tough" that<BR>
relay on various pieces of common military equpment. The helmet and military<BR>
boot are worth noting, and being British, He includes the swagger stick as a<BR>
fighting implement.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  What about martial arts techniques that take advantage of the Vacc<BR>
suit, combat armor, or heaven forbid, battle dress?  In HTH between<BR>
battledress equipped foes, will someone wil a higher battledress skill<BR>
prevail because of some implied close combat training?  Hey, with<BR>
battledress, those thirty foot, flip 3 times in the air flying kicks become<BR>
doable.  I can even add a sythesizer to provide the "fwip, fwip,fwip" noise<BR>
during the vault.  Or perhaps those bone crunching snapping sounds while I<BR>
do my katas (or are the hydralic machine noises even more intimidating?<BR>
<BR>
Tod "too much kung fu theater" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:28:23 -0700<BR>
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
>There was a gyrojet rifle produced in the early 60's here in the States.<BR>
>It fires a 13mm rocket.  The GCA of 1968 killed it.  The Gun Control Act<BR>
>required federal licensing of anything over .50 caliber.  13mm is .51<BR>
>>caliber.<BR>
<BR>
So that's what happened with them...  I figured they were found to be<BR>
impractical.  They also made a pistol according to what little I've been<BR>
able to learn about them.  They look to be pretty cool, and apparently best<BR>
suited for underwater or in space, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
				Zane<BR>
<BR>
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |<BR>
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |<BR>
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |<BR>
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+<BR>
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |<BR>
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |<BR>
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:33:54 -0400<BR>
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
Dom Mooney wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> Marc *does* post here, you may not have recognised the address, but <BR>
> there have been at least two in the last couple of weeks.<BR>
<BR>
     What the original poster probably meant was more like "Marc doesn't *discuss* here."  His posts are usually much closer to announcements than Loren's comparative chattiness.  Also, they're a lot less frequent.<BR>
<BR>
Trent<BR>
<BR>
P.S.  In case Dom was right and you just don't recognize Marc's address, it's CardSharks@aol.com (or is this supposed to be a Secret?)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:34:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >We've Discussed stuff like this often.  One of my project s a .54 caliber<BR>
> >air rifle fed from scuba tanks.  Kind of a modern day Contriner.<BR>
>  The answer<BR>
> >is, neither it nor a gauss rifle under federal law are firearms,<BR>
> and hence<BR>
> >not regulated.<BR>
><BR>
> There was a gyrojet rifle produced in the early 60's here in the States.<BR>
> It fires a 13mm rocket.  The GCA of 1968 killed it.  The Gun Control Act<BR>
> required federal licensing of anything over .50 caliber.  13mm is<BR>
> .51 caliber.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Actually, MBA associated also produced a 12mm version that was legal.  The<BR>
problem was the gun had no accuracy at long range, and no hitting power at<BR>
short range. And the ammo was not cheap.  The gun buying public, not GCA,<BR>
killed the gyrojet.  10 or 15 years ago you could buy a gyrojet cheap<BR>
through the Shotgun News.  Now they're very expensive collectors items, gone<BR>
the way of the Dardik and the Colt2000.<BR>
<BR>
Cool idea, though, a doubtless the inspiration for the accelerator rifle.<BR>
As I recall, Niven and Pournelle were quite taken with the idea.<BR>
<BR>
With regard to the air gun mentioned above.  Most people are unaware of<BR>
their potential.  The Austrian army deployed a big bore air gun (.69 cal<BR>
IIRC) during the Napoleonic wars.  It was rifles and held 15 rounds of lead<BR>
ball.  I could be fire a quickly as an manually operated rifle of today, and<BR>
could kill a man at 150 yards.  Compared with the muskets in common use, it<BR>
was phenomenally advanced and lethal (and expensive to produce).<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav I once ran a game on a planet with a tainted atmosphere--tainted by<BR>
combustible gasses.  Fire arms were verbotten.  Who wants to shoot and set<BR>
off a 10,000 cubic meter pocket of methane?  Build an air rifle at TL 7 of<BR>
say .50 caliber using tanks at 3,000 psi.  Use a .357 jacketed bullet in a<BR>
plastic sabot (black powder shooters use these) and you've really got<BR>
something.  Not nearly as load as a firearm (but quite loud, ever heard an<BR>
air-wrench).<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:35:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Canon<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Marc *does* post here, you may not have recognised the address, but<BR>
> there have been at least two in the last couple of weeks.<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
><BR>
Oops.  Well, I guess any stuff I write for publication will never be canon<BR>
;)<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:35:59 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: The TML<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2649<BR>
>Thankfully, I have found the TML to be much more<BR>
open->minded.  Which is probably why I post so much and<BR>
vent so<BR>
>often.  it's sort of like being with a bunch of friends,<BR>
>where you can loosen you tie, tip back a beer and rail <BR>
>about the idiots of the world.  And whether they agree <BR>
>with you or not, you'll always get that reassuring <BR>
>"uh-huh", "you said it" or "the buggers".<BR>
<BR>
That is the TML.  Let us know if you're ever coming to the<BR>
San Francisco area.  We do that literally as well as<BR>
virtually sometimes.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:50:39 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: M1<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>Players pursuing bad guy into starport docking bay (think<BR>
>big metal room).<BR>
>"There he is!"<BR>
>Blam, blam, blammety blammety blametty ba-blam.<BR>
>"Did I get him?"<BR>
>"WHAT?"<BR>
>"Did I GET HIM?"<BR>
>"Stop shooting man, YOU GOT HIM"<BR>
>"WHAT?"<BR>
<BR>
LOL, as they say.  Like the TV scene I remember with three<BR>
people in an office building elevator.  One pulls out a big<BR>
unsilenced revolver and shoots another.  The remaining two<BR>
then have a conversation at a normal tone of voice.  Right.<BR>
 In an elevator.  Mom had to ask why I was laughing so hard<BR>
at what should have been the climactic dramatic scene.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:05:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Joe Lachance" <Lachance@nc.rr.com><BR>
Subject: Possible martial arts variation within ACQ<BR>
<BR>
This might complicate the beautiful streamlined rules in ACQ, but here is an<BR>
idea for incorporating multiple forms of martial arts in traveller:<BR>
<BR>
Brawling is still the skill used, but it cascades into many forms of hand to<BR>
hand fighting.<BR>
<BR>
The brawling tasks used in ACQ are as follows:<BR>
Hand strike<BR>
Foot strike<BR>
Dodge<BR>
Block<BR>
Grapple<BR>
Escape grapple<BR>
<BR>
Individual styles could be represented by applying plus DMs to certain of<BR>
these tasks, and minus DMs to others.  A key point would be to keep the net<BR>
DM at zero or less, and the maximum DM being +2/-2.<BR>
<BR>
Two examples:<BR>
<BR>
Terran Ring Boxing<BR>
skill...as brawling<BR>
task DMs:  hand strike +1, foot strike -2, dodge +1<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Vilani Kuuliishanaka (rough translation 'gouging embrace')<BR>
skill...as brawling<BR>
task DMs: hand strike +1, dodge -2, block -1, grapple +2<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
What about the case of someone having brawling skill at 2 or greater? This<BR>
skill can either be concentrated in one style or divided among many.<BR>
Example:<BR>
<BR>
Carlos has brawling-3, and is an expert in the austian-spanish noogie<BR>
All tasks made by him will be brawling-3 (with DMs of the style applicable)<BR>
<BR>
Gemna also has brawling-3, andknows both the Kuuliishanaka and Ring Boxing<BR>
styles.<BR>
Tasks made with Kuul.. are at brawling-2 while ring boxing tasks are made at<BR>
brawling-1.  When performing any melee act Gemna must choose one of the<BR>
styles.  Game balance issues are pretty safe due to the +2 DM cap on any<BR>
particular style (otherwise players with high brawling skill would just pick<BR>
highly specialized styles for each of the tasks that are needed).<BR>
<BR>
Joe<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:12:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: M1<BR>
<BR>
> LOL, as they say.  Like the TV scene I remember with three<BR>
> people in an office building elevator.  One pulls out a big<BR>
> unsilenced revolver and shoots another.  The remaining two<BR>
> then have a conversation at a normal tone of voice.  Right.<BR>
>  In an elevator.  Mom had to ask why I was laughing so hard<BR>
> at what should have been the climactic dramatic scene.<BR>
<BR>
I once had the misfortune to be in a car when a friend had an AD with his<BR>
.45acp.  Youch.<BR>
<BR>
One of may favorite, intelligent scenes is from "Freebie and the Bean". Just<BR>
before a shootout in a men's room, the two main characters carefully out in<BR>
earplugs.<BR>
<BR>
Contrast this to "True Lies", where Arnie gets into a serious firefight in<BR>
another men's room.  The bad guys are using full auto AK's and such.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, just about everyone uses hearing protection, or has some hearing loss.<BR>
<BR>
Makes gauss weapons awfully attractive.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:15:39 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Culture and war in the Imperium <BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>ObTrav:  What is the public attitude toward returning <BR>
>veterans?  Since theFFW has been described here as<BR>
>political maneuvering with fleets, how do thecitizenry <BR>
>feel about the war (you know, the ones who lose  the sons<BR>
>and daughters)?<BR>
<BR>
Dulce et decorum est, pro patria mori.<BR>
<BR>
1) What we discuss here does not reflect discussion within<BR>
the Imperium.  The Imperium certainly produces propaganda<BR>
to justify warfare (and the Zhodani did attack us, not<BR>
vice-versa, you know) and manages the news to the extent it<BR>
can.  <BR>
<BR>
2) If you lose a family member or friend to war, you're<BR>
going to feel loss (I think that's true cross-culturally,<BR>
probably across sophont species in the Imperium). <BR>
Acceptance of loss is part of not getting stuck in it.  The<BR>
survivors continue with their lives.  If they perceive that<BR>
the loss was for a good cause, they don't become disruptive<BR>
to society, or at least not excessively disruptive.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2661<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, June 26 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2662<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: What is canon<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Culture and war in the Imperium <BR>
Re: Re: Canon<BR>
RE: What is canon<BR>
RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
re: Possible martial arts variation within ACQ<BR>
Re: Re: Canon<BR>
Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
Middle Names<BR>
Battle Dress and Martial Arts (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
[BITS] News Update 26/6/2000<BR>
Re: Model Mugging (now way OT)<BR>
RE: Possible martial arts variation within ACQ<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:16:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 8:15 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
>Big Snip<<BR>
<BR>
> >I don't claim to be the martial arts expert that Samuel Weiss is, but<BR>
I've<BR>
> done a fair amount of jiu-jitsu myself. In our dojo, the rule of thumb<BR>
was:<BR>
> never get your hand near the other guy's teeth.<<BR>
><BR>
> I teach a full segment on biting and countering being bit. Still, it is<BR>
> always a last resort.<BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
What do you mean LAST resort. You sound like a Mike Tyson kind of fighter.<BR>
If he had started with biting, Holyfield would have kept his head up and not<BR>
been doing so much butting. He would be way too busy watching Tyson's<BR>
mouth.......<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:30:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>Paranoia press not canon!  Arrrgh!  I love SORAG and <BR>
>Scouts and Assassins.<BR>
<BR>
The de-canonization of SORAG may itself be a SORAG black<BR>
op.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:36:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>A bit of reality. I have actually *tried* to severely<BR>
>injure/kill someone. Fortunately for all concerned, they <BR>
>were able to out run me. <BR>
>It was back in grade school. A neighborhood bully pushed<BR>
>me too far, and there was an axe handy...<BR>
<BR>
I think the DSM-IV recognizes the "bully" personality<BR>
disorder, and I like your therapy approach.  Instinctive,<BR>
not cognitive, sure to work on any level (i.e., whether he<BR>
escapes or not he's probably cured of being a bully).<BR>
<BR>
The thought of you at age 5 or so with an axe reminded me<BR>
of the little monster in Ju Dou for some reason -- very<BR>
different context, however.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:48:13 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:51:33 -0400 (EDT), Tod Glenn<BR>
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>on 6/25/00 8:12 PM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Now I'm blushing.<BR>
>> Any time you are near Pelham Bay in the Bronx, New York, stop on by. Won't<BR>
>> be able to do the penny demo here though.  I have a friend who'd appreciate<BR>
>> seeing it, ex-airborne sniper instructor.<BR>
>> Or maybe I'll see you at Gen Con. I am meeting as few other people who are<BR>
>> martial artists and may wind up doing an impromptu class with a bunch of<BR>
>> them  to exchange ideas.<BR>
 <BR>
>> Sam<BR>
<BR>
>The Bronx! No wonder you learned martial arts.  I am here in Oregon, the<BR>
>land of legal switchblades, silencers and machineguns (not to mention real<BR>
>live anarchists).  Where concealed carry permits are a right, not a<BR>
>privilege. I have my S&W 342 loaded with Glasers in my pocket even as I type<BR>
>this.  And no, I have never logged.<BR>
<BR>
>Oregon, not quite the law level of a starport, but we're working on it.<BR>
<BR>
Let me tell you - Sam is in one of the _better_ areas of the<BR>
Bronx.  I work for the NYPD in the Bronx, in the 46 Precinct<BR>
(West Tremont, Morris Heights, University Heights), and we've<BR>
arrested cockroaches (and confiscated their guns) for assault<BR>
here.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:55:20 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Culture and war in the Imperium <BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> >ObTrav:  What is the public attitude toward returning <BR>
> >veterans?  Since theFFW has been described here as<BR>
> >political maneuvering with fleets, how do thecitizenry <BR>
> >feel about the war (you know, the ones who lose  the sons<BR>
> >and daughters)?<BR>
> <BR>
> Dulce et decorum est, pro patria mori.<BR>
<BR>
There is, furthermore, every reason to think that in the Third Imperium,<BR>
the military is a "high status" career choice, entirely suitable for<BR>
"respectable people" to pursue.  It is, after all, possible to earn<BR>
knighthoods and even hereditary titles in the military (particularly in<BR>
the Imperial Navy, I believe), and since the Imperium doesn't even pretend<BR>
to be a democracy, any pathway into the aristocracy, however potentially<BR>
dangerous, is probably pretty well-trodden.  The distinction between "the<BR>
military" and "the civilian" spheres of life probably breaks down in<BR>
aristocratic circles, too.  What is the Emperor, if not the guy the fleets<BR>
will obey?  If you told the average Imperial citizen that the military<BR>
"ought to be subordinate to civilian authority" he would probably look<BR>
rather puzzled, and ask you how anyone without the firm backing of the<BR>
military could *be* "an authority" at all...<BR>
<BR>
I hated the film version of Herbert's "Dune," but the decision to put the<BR>
male members of House Corrino and House Atreides in costumes that looked a<BR>
lot like military uniforms "looked right" to me, and I suspect the nobles<BR>
of the Third Imperium tend to dress likewise...<BR>
<BR>
                                                          - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:26:40 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
At 16:15 -0400 26/6/00, trentfs@ix.netcom.com wrote:<BR>
>     What the original poster probably meant was more like "Marc <BR>
>doesn't *discuss* here."  His posts are usually much closer to <BR>
>announcements than Loren's comparative chattiness.  Also, they're a <BR>
>lot less frequent.<BR>
<BR>
True, but occasionally he does join in a thread briefly...<BR>
<BR>
>P.S.  In case Dom was right and you just don't recognize Marc's <BR>
>address, it's CardSharks@aol.com (or is this supposed to be a <BR>
>Secret?)<BR>
<BR>
<sizzle>.... Post Plasma Blues - I wasn't going to mention anything <BR>
beyond FarFuture@aol.com.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:29:15 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
> - Within  the  body   of   Traveller   canon   there   are   many<BR>
>   contradictions ... leading to canon wars on the TML.  The first<BR>
>   *great* schism was the introduction of  TNE,  GT  *could*  have<BR>
>   caused another  great  schism  (but  at  the  moment  relations<BR>
>   between the two camps are cordial).<BR>
<BR>
I find it odd that TNE could be considered either canon or non-canon.  If<BR>
no other Traveller material goes as far as the year 1200, there's nothing<BR>
to compare it to and so its status would just be "undefined."<BR>
But what do I know.  I'm a heretic who was exposed to TNE before any other<BR>
Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:32:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
> Let me tell you - Sam is in one of the _better_ areas of the<BR>
> Bronx.  I work for the NYPD in the Bronx, in the 46 Precinct<BR>
> (West Tremont, Morris Heights, University Heights), and we've<BR>
> arrested cockroaches (and confiscated their guns) for assault<BR>
> here.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Since I'm in Oregon, I have to ask.  What is a cockroach?<BR>
<BR>
Just kidding. 8} I've seen pictures in books.<BR>
I love the east coast world view.  I was just in DC a couple of weeks ago.<BR>
Re: cockroaches and guns.  My wife loves to tell the story of two New York<BR>
agents that came down to Portland to assist in an interstate gun case.  The<BR>
went into the property rooms, which contained several hundred guns.  One of<BR>
the agents remarked "I've never seen so many guns in my entire career" (and<BR>
these are ATF agents ).  She calmly replied "what this?  This is only from<BR>
two cases."<BR>
<BR>
In NYC, they arrest people for dealing without a license for 2 guns. Out<BR>
here, you'd have to selling hundreds, and they'd probably tell you to just<BR>
get a license the first time.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Does anyone know the average Law Level for the Imperium, Zhodani<BR>
Consulate or Solomani Confed?  How about the average law level for the<BR>
Marches.  I've always run the marches as the "wild west" of the imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:25:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
>>Well, since Marc doesn't post here, I guess I'd consider you the closest<BR>
>>thing to "keeper of the faith", although since you've gone over to GURPS,<BR>
>>some might say you are THE heretic.<BR>
><BR>
>Marc *does* post here, you may not have recognised the address, but<BR>
>there have been at least two in the last couple of weeks.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Dom, isn't Marc using CardShark@ something for his email addy?<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:26:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>> Marc *does* post here, you may not have recognised the address, but<BR>
>> there have been at least two in the last couple of weeks.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Dom<BR>
>><BR>
>Oops.  Well, I guess any stuff I write for publication will never be canon<BR>
>;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Tod, look at it this way, now everything for LUGTrek is also Traveller<BR>
canon.  *weg*<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:32:05 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Possible martial arts variation within ACQ<BR>
<BR>
At 16:15 -0400 26/6/00, "Joe Lachance" <Lachance@nc.rr.com> wrote:<BR>
>Individual styles could be represented by applying plus DMs to certain of<BR>
>these tasks, and minus DMs to others.  A key point would be to keep the net<BR>
>DM at zero or less, and the maximum DM being +2/-2.<BR>
<BR>
You may want to consider looking at this in terms of shifting the <BR>
task level, as this works across all editions. Joe Fugate once did an <BR>
article on why shifting the task level is better than loads of DMs - <BR>
that's tended to be the approach we've adopted for BITS task system <BR>
based adventures. (I'd reference it but all my Digests and Journals <BR>
have mysteriously disappeared to avoid legal issues :-/).<BR>
<BR>
However the DM does directly apply to CT/MT and T4; I can't remember <BR>
how directly equivalent it is for GT and TNE.<BR>
<BR>
If you take this any further, and would like me to, I can host such <BR>
suggestions at BITS as a variant.<BR>
<BR>
I take it from your post you like ACQ?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:33:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com <trentfs@ix.netcom.com><BR>
<BR>
>> Marc *does* post here, you may not have recognised the address, but<BR>
>> there have been at least two in the last couple of weeks.<BR>
><BR>
>     What the original poster probably meant was more like "Marc doesn't<BR>
*discuss* here."  His posts are usually much closer to announcements than<BR>
Loren's comparative chattiness.  Also, they're a lot less frequent.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Yes, well, from what I understand Marc Miller is working for LUG, & they<BR>
are currently very busy.  As for Loren, well one of his "jobs" I would think<BR>
would be to get us to buy GURPs Traveller, & every game designer I know is<BR>
quite chatty on the subject of his game, he maybe a jerk otherwise, but ask<BR>
him about the game he is working on & he is a chatty batard.<BR>
<BR>
>P.S.  In case Dom was right and you just don't recognize Marc's address,<BR>
it's CardSharks@aol.com (or is this supposed to be a Secret?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I know it was CardSharks@ something, didn't know it was AOL, but it does<BR>
make sense, most people from LUG use AOL for their public email.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:29:46 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
<BR>
First, confession time: I never read Vilani & Vargr. Is this the source for<BR>
the oft-quoted Vilani lack of surrender customs and tendency towards<BR>
ruthlessness? I always assumed that the Ziru Sirka was more of a commercial<BR>
empire, seeing as it was founded by its megacorporations, and not an overly<BR>
militaristic entity. Though, thinking about it, maybe I was supposed to read<BR>
between the lines about the Lancians, Loeskalth and Vegans...<BR>
<BR>
Secondly, just how useful is a near c rock of asteroidial mass? Seeing as it<BR>
takes a distance equal to that of the Oort cloud to accelerate to .5 C,<BR>
wouldn't there be time to detect it and take out the engines? Also, the<BR>
problems of accelerating a large mass of non-uniform density are, as they<BR>
say, nontrivial. Thirdly, a small error in navigation at the beginning of<BR>
acceleration could result in missing the target entirely. (I think. Somebody<BR>
more mathematically equipped than me can figure out the numbers, I hope.)<BR>
<BR>
Finally, did the Terrans even need to develop bioweapons to fight the<BR>
Vilani? I recently did some freelance work on influenza. An infectious<BR>
disease can have devastating effects on a virgin population! 22% of the<BR>
population of British Samoa died when the Spanish flu of 1918-19 hit them,<BR>
and this was after the strain had lost much of its virulence. Considering<BR>
that there are likely to be several viral diseases that are still common in<BR>
the 22nd century, and that the Vilani have *no* resistance to any Terran<BR>
diseases, it seems likely that the First Imperium was wracked by several<BR>
plagues that would make the Black Death look like the common cold--simply<BR>
from encounters with ordinary Terrans.<BR>
<BR>
Just my Cr .02. Pardon me while I duck into my flame-proof bunker for<BR>
jumping into the Great Controversies of the TML.<BR>
<BR>
Fred "Scorched to a Crisp" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:33:02 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Middle Names<BR>
<BR>
>>Tod "packin' iron and not apologizing" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Apologies to Fred "The quotes" Ramen, who got me started on this middle name<BR>
quote thing.<<<BR>
<BR>
LOL!<BR>
<BR>
When your middle name is Christian and you're the third consecutive<BR>
first-born male to have the exact same name in your family, you tend to get<BR>
clever about how you sign your name! (Frederick Christian Ramen III...a name<BR>
so nice we've used it thrice.)<BR>
<BR>
Fred "My lack of a clever .sig file drove me to this" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:38:51 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Battle Dress and Martial Arts (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
"Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>ObTrav:  What about martial arts techniques that take advantage of the<BR>
Vacc<BR>
suit, combat armor, or heaven forbid, battle dress?  In HTH between<BR>
battledress equipped foes, will someone wil a higher battledress skill<BR>
prevail because of some implied close combat training?  Hey, with<BR>
battledress, those thirty foot, flip 3 times in the air flying kicks become<BR>
doable.  I can even add a sythesizer to provide the "fwip, fwip,fwip" noise<BR>
during the vault.  Or perhaps those bone crunching snapping sounds while I<BR>
do my katas (or are the hydralic machine noises even more intimidating?<<<BR>
<BR>
FWIW, the first joint lock they teach you in aikido was originally used<BR>
against an armored foe. The idea was to rotate his arm over and expose the<BR>
armpit, so you could stab that unarmored location.<BR>
<BR>
I'm guessing that joint locks, especially the ones that cause pain, are<BR>
useful even against an armored opponent. We used to say that nikkyo could<BR>
bring down anyone, no matter how big. Also, throws can work: you probably<BR>
won't damage the person inside the suit, but the fall might still stun them.<BR>
<BR>
Just my very unscientific Cr .02. I'm sure Samwise can comment more about<BR>
how to use strikes against battle dress :)<BR>
<BR>
Fred "No middle name this time" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:36:48 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [BITS] News Update 26/6/2000<BR>
<BR>
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
         GAMESFEST<BR>
                 is on...<BR>
                         THIS SATURDAY (1st July)<BR>
                 at...<BR>
                         Harlow Sportcentre, Harlow, Essex, UK.<BR>
<BR>
It's an all-day event, with hundreds of attendees last year, and <BR>
(better still) may become a two-day (weekend) event next year if they <BR>
get enough support. So, come along and join us at the BITS stand for <BR>
some Traveller, including ACQ!  The con is just north of London...<BR>
<BR>
For more details, contact Jan Eldridge at 01279-435372 or e-mail <BR>
UK_GAMES.FEST@VIRGIN.NET. Web site at: <BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/utopian.tiger/gamesfest.htm<BR>
<BR>
- -----<BR>
<BR>
TRAVELLER DECKPLAN DESIGN CONTEST<BR>
<BR>
The first Traveller Deckplan Design Contest, <BR>
http://members.home.net/spacecraft/TDDC/main.htm has finished and the <BR>
organiser, Gordon Horne, was suitably happy/embarrassed to find that <BR>
he won both categories. He is hoping that this result will encourage <BR>
more of you to contribute in order to put him in his place!<BR>
<BR>
To get your chance to win, the second Traveller Deckplans Design <BR>
Contest is underway at <BR>
http://members.home.net/spacecraft/TDDC/main.htm<BR>
<BR>
The challenge this time is to reinterprete the classic Jump-3, 1-G, <BR>
600 dton Type-R Subsidized Liner. Submissions will be accepted until <BR>
midnight, Monday, 10 July. While everyone in TDDC#1 used various <BR>
computer software packages, the TDDC is not a computer art contest. <BR>
All media are welcome.<BR>
<BR>
Full contest details, submission instruction and contest rules are available at<BR>
http://members.home.net/spacecraft/TDDC/main.htm<BR>
<BR>
Gordon can be contacted at mailto:spacecraft@home.net<BR>
<BR>
END OF NEWSFLASH<BR>
<BR>
Dom (BITS Webmaster)<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS, CORE and their respective logos are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:40:49 -0500<BR>
From: Chris Olson <chris@pdaguy.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (now way OT)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I have observed this effect in myself many times as well. I am a competent<BR>
> shot, and am always armed.  On several occasions I have found myself in<BR>
> 'sticky' situations.  Just the knowledge that, if necessary, I can deal with<BR>
> the situation gives my a sense of security that I believe others can<BR>
> perceive.  Also, the knowledge that escalation can result in very terminal<BR>
> results provides me with the restraint to 'let things go', rather than let<BR>
> them get out of hand.<BR>
><BR>
> Have any other martial artists observed this phenomena?<BR>
><BR>
> Tod "packin' iron and not apologizing" Glenn<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Yes.  I've noticed it a bit min myself, and always in my instructors ...<BR>
<BR>
Chris Olson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:49:14 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Possible martial arts variation within ACQ<BR>
<BR>
> If you take this any further, and would like me to, I can host such<BR>
> suggestions at BITS as a variant.<BR>
><BR>
> I take it from your post you like ACQ?<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
<BR>
The BITS stuff is great.  I started to purchase ACQ and ended up with<BR>
everything.  My comments as a Traveller Referee of over 20 years experience.<BR>
The 101 series is good for someone who has trouble creating their own<BR>
background material, I didn't see anything that really stood out (to me)<BR>
until I paged through 101 Religions.  I've pretty much not bothered with<BR>
this aspect, but I can see that will have to change.<BR>
<BR>
On ACQ, since I'm a CT Referee, I'm still playing with ACQ.  The concept<BR>
looks great, but I want to see how this effects play.  My games, when they<BR>
get violent, are fast and furious.  I love to look at the player and say<BR>
"You are taking fire.  What do you do RIGHT NOW!"  I try to keep all combat<BR>
so that it requires only a couple of rolls (to hit, damage and location<BR>
using On Target).  I tend to gloss over details like action points to keep<BR>
the action intense and the players off balance (they are becoming quite good<BR>
at making rapid decisions).<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, my overall impression  of the BTS stuff?  Highly recommended.  My<BR>
wife is just starting out as a referee, and I have referred her to all the<BR>
BITS books for background material (which means I really can't read most of<BR>
it in detail--Yet). And considering the cost to buy, I can't think of any<BR>
reason not to buy them all (and I did).<BR>
<BR>
My highest praise?  I want to write for you guys.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:52:06 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
On 06/26/00 at 10:37 AM,  "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>>Getting back to the bit on Vilani dietary habits.  "Don't fear the man who<BR>
>>bites you.  Fear the one who bites you, chews and swallows".<BR>
<BR>
>    So would that make Mike Tyson a Vilani?  *weg*  (Note:  If Mike Tyson<BR>
>the Boxer is on the list, I am a big fan of yours & please do not find me<BR>
>& beat the cr*p out of me.)<BR>
<BR>
LOL! Good one.<BR>
<BR>
Ah, you know it was just that Evander had such big ears and Mike was *soo* hungry trying to keep his weight down, and that big old ear was right there....well he couldn't help himself. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    ps. I know heavyweights don't have to meet a weight limit. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:03:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 6/26/00 1:18 AM, webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> issued forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> My players have learned the adage "Never hit someone in the face with<BR>
>> your hand--that's what stick and rocks are for".<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Tod<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, hitting somebody in the "stick and rocks" usually drops 'em quick. ;)<BR>
<BR>
Not always. I've heard stories about some unpleasant surprises that<BR>
way. <BR>
<BR>
And there's a *classic* scene in one movie where the "hero" really<BR>
nails this big hulking brute of a bad guy in the crotch. And the bad<BR>
guy just smiles at him... :-)<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, one of the more painful stories to merely *listen*<BR>
to that I've ever heard was someone in the SCA describing the time a<BR>
stray blow moved his cup about 6 inches to one side. By "squeezing"<BR>
everything inside under one edge.... <wince><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:12:23 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
On 06/26/00 at 02:52 PM,  Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>The rule of thumb I use is<BR>
>a) Hit the soft parts of the body with a fist<BR>
>b) Hit the hard parts of the body with the palm or palm edge<BR>
<BR>
But *that* is part of the training that makes Brawling or Martial<BR>
Arts a skill.  I don't claim to have either.  When I between twelve<BR>
and fourteen I got into a few fights (boys will be boys), and in my<BR>
case when I got to the point of actually fighting I was beyond even<BR>
thinking about rules of thumb.  <BR>
<BR>
I was supposed to know something about how to defend myself, even<BR>
had a little boxing training, but I was strenuously taught to not<BR>
fight, and so by the time I did I'd lost my temper and was beyond<BR>
thinking about anything.  Going berserk works okay until you run<BR>
into someone that keeps their head in a fight.  IMO, keeping your<BR>
head in a fight is probably the largest part of whatever skill there<BR>
is.<BR>
<BR>
>There are a lot of small bones in the hand that are too easy to break.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, that's the truth!  <BR>
<BR>
In the last fight I every had, and the only one where I actually<BR>
stayed sane enough to know what I was doing, I knocked a much larger<BR>
kid out cold with a left, right combination to the jaw.  Turns out<BR>
the school bully had a glass jaw, and nobody had ever popped him one<BR>
there.  IAC, he got up and took the bus home.  I went to the<BR>
emergency room with a broken finger on one hand, and both hands were<BR>
sore all over for several days.  We both had to do a week of picking<BR>
up trash, and actually became friendly.<BR>
<BR>
Back to my question...so, is it the general consensus that we should<BR>
pretty much treat Brawling and Martial Arts skills equally in<BR>
Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:15:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Vilani<BR>
><BR>
>I had failed to take into account the obvious Terrain bioweapons - of<BR>
course<BR>
>the Vilani would have no clue how to counter them at first.<BR>
<BR>
	OK, I'm relatively new to the list and I don't know all the subjects that<BR>
have been done to death, but something has been bugging me lately.  Granted,<BR>
I'm more of a physical science person (though my final degree was in<BR>
Anthropology), but the more I learn about microbiology, the more I begin to<BR>
think our assumptions about the history of Vilani biology are way off base:<BR>
	According to canon, since the Vilani were transplanted to a planet with a<BR>
radically different biology, they were relatively unaffected by disease<BR>
because the local bugs couldn't infect them  (must have made for interesting<BR>
burial customs - bodies would not decay, they'd just naturally mummify).<BR>
Cities could grow because sanitation was not as great an issue; society<BR>
could develop rapidly because they were not held back by regular epidemics.<BR>
	My problem is this - the most startling thing about biology is how<BR>
amazingly opportunistic life is - look at all the new nastyspots on earth<BR>
that have been discovered to be teeming with life:  deep-sea volcanic vents,<BR>
puddles of methane ice at the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico, even within the<BR>
rocks itself miles underground.  Give us an ecological niche and enough time<BR>
and _something_ is going to evolve to be able to take advantage of it.  I've<BR>
even seen a photo of a species of mold that lived in the cooling water that<BR>
circulated through the cores of nuclear reactors.  In only 40 years we now<BR>
have insects that are resistant to pesticides and bacteria that are<BR>
resistant to antibiotics.<BR>
	Even if the local lifeforms couldn't evolve to infect the transplanted<BR>
humans, or for some reason they were lazy little bugs and didn't want to<BR>
bother with trying to evolve to infect us, we carry a large number of<BR>
symbiotic organisms in our bodies - organisms that we really _need_ to<BR>
function properly (just ask anyone who has had all their intestinal flora<BR>
wiped out by a heavy dose of antibiotics what it is like to eat)...organisms<BR>
that are very energetic little evolvers and more than happy to infect us<BR>
given half a chance (vis:  the recent problems with e. coli infected beef).<BR>
The first person transplanted to Vland who relieves himself (or herself) in<BR>
the bushes has just introduced e. coli to a whole new world...literally.<BR>
_They_ are going to evolve to infect the local life, and will probably be<BR>
still able to cause problems for the humans as well.<BR>
	</rantlike woolgathering><BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training, who, by the way, has<BR>
been a gamer long enough to remember Snits Revenge, and to have pulled his<BR>
copy of Awful Green Things out of the center of The Dragon #28, and even<BR>
knows the difference between a Snotch and a Snandergrab)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2662<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2663</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, June 26 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2663<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
RE: What is canon<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2662<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
RE: M1<BR>
RE: Canon<BR>
RE: Noise (was: M1)<BR>
Re: Vilani Bioscience<BR>
RE: Canon<BR>
Re: M1<BR>
Re: The TML<BR>
RE: M1<BR>
Re: Model Mugging <BR>
Re: What is canon<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
Re: Model Mugging (now way OT)<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:16:12 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
<BR>
I have to agree with VR.<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani were acknowledged to be hundreds (Maybe as much as as thousands)<BR>
years behind the Solomani as far as medical technology goes. Basic gene<BR>
theory might not have ever developed on Vland, nor might any sort of<BR>
microbiology. The Rote method of teaching embraced by the Vilani would have<BR>
discouraged R&D: Canon also suggests that the life on Vland was dramatically<BR>
different from Humaniti; there would be no close analogues to compare and<BR>
contrast against a human. With nothing in common, basic mechanisms common to<BR>
every life form might well have been missed, since they might have been too<BR>
dissimilar to recognize. They were probably (Medically speaking) in the dark<BR>
ages even at TL12, with little or no knowledge of even basic antiseptics.<BR>
However, I would imagine that local pharmacology might have been fairly<BR>
advanced as far as extracting useful drugs from what was available, by trial<BR>
and error and as byproducts of food processing over the millenia.<BR>
<BR>
The Solomani would have noticed this during their first meetings, I'm sure.<BR>
The probably weren't "looking" for a chink in the Vilani's armor, but the<BR>
first time a Solomani doctor went into what passed for a Vilani hospital, he<BR>
would have a clear picture of what they were capable of.<BR>
<BR>
Bioweapons would be a Solomani speacialty. However, maybe the Vilani would<BR>
have an ace or two up their sleeves with chamical weapons. Poisons extracted<BR>
from their common food staples might well be very deadly.<BR>
<BR>
Just my Cr0.02.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
To: "Traveller List" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 2:29 PM<BR>
Subject: Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> First, confession time: I never read Vilani & Vargr. Is this the source<BR>
for<BR>
> the oft-quoted Vilani lack of surrender customs and tendency towards<BR>
> ruthlessness? I always assumed that the Ziru Sirka was more of a<BR>
commercial<BR>
> empire, seeing as it was founded by its megacorporations, and not an<BR>
overly<BR>
> militaristic entity. Though, thinking about it, maybe I was supposed to<BR>
read<BR>
> between the lines about the Lancians, Loeskalth and Vegans...<BR>
><BR>
> Secondly, just how useful is a near c rock of asteroidial mass? Seeing as<BR>
it<BR>
> takes a distance equal to that of the Oort cloud to accelerate to .5 C,<BR>
> wouldn't there be time to detect it and take out the engines? Also, the<BR>
> problems of accelerating a large mass of non-uniform density are, as they<BR>
> say, nontrivial. Thirdly, a small error in navigation at the beginning of<BR>
> acceleration could result in missing the target entirely. (I think.<BR>
Somebody<BR>
> more mathematically equipped than me can figure out the numbers, I hope.)<BR>
><BR>
> Finally, did the Terrans even need to develop bioweapons to fight the<BR>
> Vilani? I recently did some freelance work on influenza. An infectious<BR>
> disease can have devastating effects on a virgin population! 22% of the<BR>
> population of British Samoa died when the Spanish flu of 1918-19 hit them,<BR>
> and this was after the strain had lost much of its virulence. Considering<BR>
> that there are likely to be several viral diseases that are still common<BR>
in<BR>
> the 22nd century, and that the Vilani have *no* resistance to any Terran<BR>
> diseases, it seems likely that the First Imperium was wracked by several<BR>
> plagues that would make the Black Death look like the common cold--simply<BR>
> from encounters with ordinary Terrans.<BR>
><BR>
> Just my Cr .02. Pardon me while I duck into my flame-proof bunker for<BR>
> jumping into the Great Controversies of the TML.<BR>
><BR>
> Fred "Scorched to a Crisp" Ramen<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:20:11 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
On 06/26/00 at 02:26 PM,  "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>>> Marc *does* post here, you may not have recognised the address, but<BR>
>>> there have been at least two in the last couple of weeks.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Dom<BR>
>>><BR>
>>Oops.  Well, I guess any stuff I write for publication will never be canon<BR>
>>;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>    Tod, look at it this way, now everything for LUGTrek is also<BR>
>Traveller canon.  *weg*<BR>
<BR>
Didn't LUG just get bought by WOTC?<BR>
<BR>
If so, then Marc now works for....<what a horrid thought!><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:24:29 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
At 4:29 PM -0500 6/26/00, Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR>
>On Sun, 25 Jun 2000, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
>  > - Within  the  body   of   Traveller   canon   there   are   many<BR>
>  >   contradictions ... leading to canon wars on the TML.  The first<BR>
>  >   *great* schism was the introduction of  TNE,  GT  *could*  have<BR>
>  >   caused another  great  schism  (but  at  the  moment  relations<BR>
>  >   between the two camps are cordial).<BR>
><BR>
>I find it odd that TNE could be considered either canon or non-canon.  If<BR>
>no other Traveller material goes as far as the year 1200, there's nothing<BR>
>to compare it to and so its status would just be "undefined."<BR>
>But what do I know.  I'm a heretic who was exposed to TNE before any other<BR>
>Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
It similar to the question "is GT canon".  For the large<BR>
number of people that play GT (the majority?) it is certainly<BR>
canon and such people aren't really affected by the question<BR>
of whether others consider canon.  GT certainly considers MT<BR>
and (primarily) CT canon, but that isn't changing because nothing<BR>
is changing.  This situations will remain true<BR>
until such time as other versions of Traveller become<BR>
available in which case it will help determine how much<BR>
people use stuff from the other versions.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:35:03 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2662<BR>
<BR>
The worst (best?) I've heard from the owner of the dojo<BR>
I studied at in college was of a sparring match between Chuck<BR>
Norris and Bill "Superfoot" Wallace. Basically, the first<BR>
point was awarded when Mr. Wallace broke Mr. Norris' nose,<BR>
causing quite a bit of bleeding.<BR>
<BR>
The second point was awarded to Mr. Norris when he, still<BR>
bleeding, lifted Mr. Wallace six inches off the floor with <BR>
a front snap kick to the groin. Mr. Wallace landed on his <BR>
knees with a broken cup.<BR>
<BR>
<cringe><BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:03:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, one of the more painful stories to merely *listen*<BR>
to that I've ever heard was someone in the SCA describing the time a<BR>
stray blow moved his cup about 6 inches to one side. By "squeezing"<BR>
everything inside under one edge.... <wince><BR>
<BR>
- - -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:37:59 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On 06/26/00 at 10:37 AM,  "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >>Getting back to the bit on Vilani dietary habits.  "Don't fear the man who<BR>
> >>bites you.  Fear the one who bites you, chews and swallows".<BR>
> <BR>
> >    So would that make Mike Tyson a Vilani?  *weg*  (Note:  If Mike Tyson<BR>
> >the Boxer is on the list, I am a big fan of yours & please do not find me<BR>
> >& beat the cr*p out of me.)<BR>
> <BR>
> LOL! Good one.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ah, you know it was just that Evander had such big ears and Mike was *soo* hungry trying to keep his weight down, and that big old ear was right there....well he couldn't help himself. <g><BR>
<BR>
Ah, yes.  That two-bit bout between "Iron-deficient" Mike Tyson and<BR>
Evander "The Meal Deal" Holyfield.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Imagine the potential legal ramifications of a convicted felon<BR>
(who, having paid the penalty prescribed by the convicting society, is<BR>
now free) moving about from world to world.  Are there Imperial<BR>
entanglements to avoid?  What organizations/agencies, if any, might<BR>
intervene if such a person were arrested by a local government that<BR>
considers the crime of [insert convict's crime here] punishable by death<BR>
or permanent imprisonment?  Are the PCs who transported the felon to<BR>
said world liable as well?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:37:54 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: M1<BR>
<BR>
On 06/26/00 at 01:12 PM,  "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Contrast this to "True Lies", where Arnie gets into a serious firefight<BR>
>in another men's room.  The bad guys are using full auto AK's and such.<BR>
<BR>
>IMTU, just about everyone uses hearing protection, or has some hearing<BR>
>loss.<BR>
<BR>
Hee, hee! Well, I got that right then. In a game I'm GMing, I just deafened (temporarily) a vargr in the aftermath of an explosion.  Now, my question is, how slowly should his hearing return?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:48:38 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Canon<BR>
<BR>
>> Didn't LUG just get bought by WOTC?<BR>
> <BR>
> If so, then Marc now works for....<what a horrid thought!><BR>
> <BR>
> Eris<BR>
> -- <BR>
LUG? Please enlighten me.<BR>
<BR>
And WOTC is now owned by Hasbro (they wanted those Pokemon BAD!)<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:48:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Noise (was: M1)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: M1<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
>Players pursuing bad guy into starport docking bay (think big metal room).<BR>
><BR>
>"There he is!"<BR>
>Blam, blam, blammety blammety blametty ba-blam.<BR>
><BR>
>"Did I get him?"<BR>
>"WHAT?"<BR>
>"Did I GET HIM?"<BR>
>"Stop shooting man, YOU GOT HIM"<BR>
>"WHAT?"<BR>
<BR>
	You owe Odetics one keyboard, man!<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training, who still cringes when he<BR>
remembers standing in front of a Gew 98 when it fired a rifle grenade - the<BR>
inside of the discharger cup and the inside of my head both made the most<BR>
remarkable, bell-like ringing noise...I actually staggered and slumped<BR>
against the wall of the trench)<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:50:35 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
>something has been bugging me lately.  Granted,<BR>
>I'm more of a physical science person (though my final degree was in<BR>
>Anthropology), but the more I learn about microbiology, the more I begin to<BR>
>think our assumptions about the history of Vilani biology are way off base:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
I has been discussed a bit.  My view is that if the Vilani<BR>
could live there, then they were vulnerable to bacteria.<BR>
OTOH, it is possible that they were not vulnerable to local<BR>
viruses (since that would be affect by their genetic disimilarity).<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:41:07<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Canon<BR>
<BR>
At 12:35 PM 6/26/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Marc *does* post here, you may not have recognised the address, but<BR>
>> there have been at least two in the last couple of weeks.<BR>
<BR>
>Oops.  Well, I guess any stuff I write for publication will never be canon<BR>
<BR>
*sigh*  Yeah, one of things hat got me pysched about doing Ground Forces<BR>
was "now I can win arguments on the TML about the Army by reminding people<BR>
that I wrote the book on the subject."  In my dreams.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:45:12<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: M1<BR>
<BR>
At 12:50 PM 6/26/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>LOL, as they say.  Like the TV scene I remember with three<BR>
>people in an office building elevator.  One pulls out a big<BR>
>unsilenced revolver and shoots another.  The remaining two<BR>
>then have a conversation at a normal tone of voice.  Right.<BR>
> In an elevator.  Mom had to ask why I was laughing so hard<BR>
>at what should have been the climactic dramatic scene.<BR>
<BR>
So true.  Hollyweird either discounts the noise of weapons fire entirely,<BR>
or blows it completelty out of proportion.  I always wondered why I never<BR>
got those M-16s that have foot-long flaming muzzle blasts, and sound like<BR>
.454 Casull going off.  All I ever fired was the ones that sound like<BR>
bubble-wrap being popped.<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:47:25<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The TML<BR>
<BR>
At 12:35 PM 6/26/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>That is the TML.  Let us know if you're ever coming to the<BR>
>San Francisco area.  We do that literally as well as<BR>
>virtually sometimes.<BR>
<BR>
Which reminds me.. since everybody hated the bar I selected, it's your turn<BR>
to find a watering hole.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:56:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: M1<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Hee, hee! Well, I got that right then. In a game I'm GMing, I<BR>
> just deafened (temporarily) a vargr in the aftermath of an<BR>
> explosion.  Now, my question is, how slowly should his hearing return?<BR>
><BR>
That would depend on the explosion.  Possibly never, or at least back to<BR>
normal.  I remember having an artillery simulator go off a foot or so from<BR>
my face during and FTX.  I was deaf as a post for about a day and a half,<BR>
and had no balance for about a half hour.<BR>
<BR>
The AD in the car that I described earlier (.45 cap in a Ford sedan) left my<BR>
ears ringing for less than an hour.<BR>
<BR>
Any audiologist out there?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:59:01 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Model Mugging <BR>
<BR>
>From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
<BR>
>Someone who's had MM and no other training obviously isn't<BR>
<BR>
>going to be able to take a really experienced fighter, <BR>
>even pound for pound, but  there's a whole class of <BR>
>lowlife who's counting on being able to simply intimidate <BR>
>a lone woman into submission. The graduates of MM are, I <BR>
>think, well-equipped to deal with those.<BR>
<BR>
That's a very good point in considering self-defense<BR>
training for non-military and non-police types.  (That's<BR>
practically ob Traveller, isn't it?)  <BR>
<BR>
For my next hapkido promotion, I must make up a number of<BR>
techniques, and I am trying to be as practical as possible.<BR>
 When working with one of the black belts, I suggested<BR>
possible defenses to a backfist.  He said, "don't worry<BR>
about defending against a backfist. Only another martial<BR>
artist would throw a backfist.  You are almost certainly<BR>
never going to get into a real fight with another martial<BR>
artist.  Let's work on things that people do in the street<BR>
that you might have to deal with."  <BR>
<BR>
As a white-collar worker living in a major metropolitan<BR>
area of an extremely well-defended and internally stable<BR>
superpower, I do not expect to have to fight a highly<BR>
trained fighter nor an enemy soldier.  A criminal element<BR>
looking for an easy mark or some similar situation is quite<BR>
likely, and that's what I train for.  <BR>
<BR>
Similarly situated PCs (you knew there was going to be<BR>
another ob Traveller, didn't you?) would likely do the<BR>
same, even in the border regions.  While some member states<BR>
may follow a Swiss or Israeli model and make everyone a<BR>
soldier, most will probably rely on a standing military<BR>
force that can devote the time needed to master complex<BR>
technologies.  <BR>
<BR>
Technology is another factor in this equation.  While at<BR>
one time all Englishmen may have had to spend a certain<BR>
number of hours per week practicing the longbow, or the<BR>
morning tai chi may have been about more dangerous concerns<BR>
that meditation and flexibility, even by TL 4 or so weapons<BR>
become divided into hunting weapons and war weapons, and<BR>
specialization in one may not provide enough knowledge for<BR>
the other.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:14:19 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:<BR>
>> > (And, just like religion, this can be a touchy subject ... so<BR>
>> > I'm off to put on some asbestos underwear.)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Please, use Nomex instead. We wouldn't want you getting cancer<BR>
>> of anything important. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Good to  know  ...  I  thought  the  problem  with  asbestos  was<BR>
> particles getting into the  lungs.  But  I  didn't  know  it  was<BR>
> *generally* carcinogenic.<BR>
<BR>
I seem to recall that it's not the best thing to get worked into the<BR>
skin either. In any case, the folks removing in wear disposable<BR>
*suits*, taped to prevent anything getting inside, *as well as*<BR>
respirators. <BR>
<BR>
> The 'professional builder' who built and owned my  parents  house<BR>
> before they bought it used unpainted sheets of pale blue asbestos<BR>
> instead of gyproc for the garage ceiling.  How bad is that?  (And<BR>
> since the same guy built the whole house  I'm  wondering  if  the<BR>
> "painted gyproc walls" inside the  house  are  actually  asbestos<BR>
> too, albeit sealed in paint.)<BR>
<BR>
I'd *strongly* advise getting an asbestos survey done. You'll *have* to<BR>
get one done if you try to do *anything* that modifies the "structure"<BR>
of that garage. <BR>
<BR>
Try not to wince at the quotes for getting the asbestos removed.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:18:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/26/00 1:34 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Ask her what the regs would say about a home-built "gauss rifle", will<BR>
>> you? <BR>
><BR>
> We've Discussed stuff like this often.  One of my project s a .54 caliber<BR>
> air rifle fed from scuba tanks.  Kind of a modern day Contriner.  The answer<BR>
> is, neither it nor a gauss rifle under federal law are firearms, and hence<BR>
> not regulated.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm. I need to get a whole bunch of the alnico plate they use in those<BR>
"100 pound pull" magnets.... :-)<BR>
<BR>
>> BTW, my lease says this building is Law Level F or so (no weapons<BR>
>> allowed on premises) so my guns live with a friend. <sigh><BR>
><BR>
> Well, there's something just wrong about that.  I tend to ignore stuff like<BR>
> that.  If I were concerned about my personal safety, I'd keep a gun and just<BR>
> not mention it.  At my old place of employ they decided the weren't going to<BR>
> allow guns and came out with thing for use to sign, saying we agreed with<BR>
> the new policy.<BR>
<BR>
Alas, in *this* case, it's likely *very* enforceable. Section 8<BR>
housing. I *know* they won at the federal level with regards to some<BR>
housing projects back east.<BR>
<BR>
And I do have a T-stick here. I just expect that carrying rifles in &<BR>
out would be apt to get noticed. And I'll put up with a fair amount<BR>
given the rent. Once I can *afford* to pay normal rental rates, I'm<BR>
likely to move out.<BR>
<BR>
> Restrictive covenants are another matter that are open to legal attack.<BR>
> Unless you are in a federal HA, you can usually win these thing.<BR>
<BR>
Alas, not only is this subsidized housing, there are good reasons why<BR>
many of the tenants *shouldn't* be allowed guns or anything else<BR>
overtly "weapon like". <BR>
<BR>
Of course, "I'm different". :-)<BR>
<BR>
> The trick is to not sign any agreements at the start. <BR>
<BR>
Not a viable option when I moved in. <BR>
<BR>
> Like I said, stupidity is often the best defense.  "Gun aren't allowed.<BR>
> Gee, I'm sorry, I guess I forgot".  It's not like you can be arrested for<BR>
> it.  And getting someone evicted is a real pain in the butt.<BR>
<BR>
Not in this case...<BR>
<BR>
> Or you could get a cap and ball revolver to keep around the place.  Hey, the<BR>
> federal government says they are not firearms.<BR>
<BR>
The lease says no *weapons*, not merely no firearms. It also forbids<BR>
drugs and alcohol.<BR>
<BR>
And as many of the folks here are hear because of a history of a<BR>
somewhat shaky grasp of reality, I'm willing to concede the point<BR>
(mostly).<BR>
<BR>
I do plan on using the "stupidity" defense if anybody goes after me<BR>
about the T-stick. And due to the wording, I have a *lovely* out if<BR>
they ever try to go after me about alcohol (not that I drink much<BR>
anyway). Basicly, it involves the fact that they have a clause in there<BR>
along the lines of "no alcohol, as it is forbidden by your treatment<BR>
plan". Even when I was being treated, I had explicitly *asked* about<BR>
alcohol, and was told that in moderation it wasn't a problem with my<BR>
meds, and that there was no other reason for *me* to avoid it. <BR>
<BR>
Mostly I avoid alcohol because I have to take anti-histamines a lot.<BR>
And that's a *bad* combo. <BR>
<BR>
But if they ever *do* go after me, they'll regret that wording.<BR>
Especially since I and another person specifically *mentioned* that our<BR>
treatment plans didn't include any such restriction during a tenant<BR>
meeting some time back. And the building manager just changed the<BR>
subject. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Obtrav: Just how many ways *are* there of getting around "inconvenient"<BR>
local laws? Refs who plan on such laws might want to consider writing<BR>
them with similarly obscure loopholes... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:40:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Actually, no.<BR>
>><BR>
>> A fire, especially a *metal* fire being fed by an oxygen jet looks more<BR>
>> like a magnesium flare than like any "normal" sort of fire. Watch<BR>
>> someone using a cutting torch sometime. That's how such devices work,<BR>
>> they use a regular oxy-acetylene flame to get the metal hot enough to<BR>
>> ignite, then you hit the "trigger" and feed it a jet of pure oxygen.<BR>
>> The jet *burns* the metal out of the way.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Blinding white light, and if the metal is iron or steel, *huge* numbers<BR>
>> of sparks.<BR>
>><BR>
> Well I don't know, a flare coming out of a ship should show up nicely on<BR>
> sensors result "Target that explosion".<BR>
<BR>
Do recall the ranges involved. You *can't* target that precisely due to<BR>
speed of light lag. <BR>
<BR>
At least not unless the ship is unable to accelerate. In which case<BR>
it's pretty much "dead meat" anyway.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:44:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (now way OT)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> As part of my wife law enforcement training, she relates a study of criminal<BR>
> and how they chose their victims.  In one part of the study, prisoners were<BR>
> shown films of people walking alone, and they were told to pick victims.<BR>
> Invariably these are people who look like victims.  People who exude<BR>
> confidence are not good targets.  Criminal are looking for the easy mark.<BR>
> They are lazy, which is why they are criminals.  Real jobs pay better.<BR>
> (obviously I'm painting with a broad brush here).<BR>
><BR>
> Interestingly, I have observed the same effect with people I have trained<BR>
> with firearms.  It is amazing to me how a shy, small woman, once she finds<BR>
> that the can hit a small target with a pistol every time, can begin to<BR>
> exhibit a amazing confidence.  This alone will probably deter 90% of would<BR>
> be attackers.<BR>
><BR>
> I have observed this effect in myself many times as well. I am a competent<BR>
> shot, and am always armed.  On several occasions I have found myself in<BR>
> 'sticky' situations.  Just the knowledge that, if necessary, I can deal with<BR>
> the situation gives my a sense of security that I believe others can<BR>
> perceive.  Also, the knowledge that escalation can result in very terminal<BR>
> results provides me with the restraint to 'let things go', rather than let<BR>
> them get out of hand.<BR>
><BR>
> Have any other martial artists observed this phenomena?<BR>
<BR>
I'm *not* a martial artist, but I've been the *victim* of the exact<BR>
opposite. I got jumped by a bunch of teens in the bad neighborhood I<BR>
was living in because it looked to them like I was trying to avoid<BR>
them. Actually, I was just taking a shortcut across a vacant lot.<BR>
<BR>
And that may be a problem with some of the advice given to women. The<BR>
idea about crossing the street to determine if someone is actually<BR>
following you *is* a good idea. But I've never seen it accompanied by a<BR>
warning to not make it *obvious* that you are trying to avoid the<BR>
person. And that's a *major* mistake. <BR>
<BR>
After all, if you are trying to avoid someone, that tells them that you<BR>
think they are a danger, which means that you think they can "take<BR>
you". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:49:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>We've Discussed stuff like this often.  One of my project s a .54 caliber<BR>
>>air rifle fed from scuba tanks.  Kind of a modern day Contriner.  The answer<BR>
>>is, neither it nor a gauss rifle under federal law are firearms, and hence<BR>
>>not regulated.<BR>
><BR>
> There was a gyrojet rifle produced in the early 60's here in the States.<BR>
> It fires a 13mm rocket.  The GCA of 1968 killed it.  The Gun Control Act <BR>
> required federal licensing of anything over .50 caliber.  13mm is .51 <BR>
> caliber.<BR>
<BR>
It required licensing of *firearms* over .50 caliber. Black powder<BR>
rifles clear up to *60* caliber are unregulated. And as I recall, the<BR>
Gryojet was killed by expense and it's design shortcomings, not by any<BR>
gun laws.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:06:37 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
<BR>
>The rule of thumb I use is<BR>
>a) Hit the soft parts of the body with a fist<BR>
>b) Hit the hard parts of the body with the palm or palm<BR>
>edge<BR>
<BR>
I would add to b): "or your shod foot, if practical".  Dr.<BR>
Marten's steel toe applied to the shin bone should pretty<BR>
well stop the fight.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2663<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2664</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, June 26 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2664<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
RE: not so small arms<BR>
RE: M1<BR>
RE: IT Geeks<BR>
RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
RE: Model Mugging (now way OT)<BR>
RE: not so small arms<BR>
RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
RE: not so small arms<BR>
RE: M1<BR>
RE: Canon<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
RE: Canon<BR>
RE: M1<BR>
RE: Canon<BR>
Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:06:40 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Didn't LUG just get bought by WOTC?<BR>
> <BR>
> If so, then Marc now works for....<what a horrid thought!><BR>
<BR>
Indeed.  As of July 5th (IIRC) LUG employees will be WTOC/Hasbro<BR>
employees.  If I were Marc, I'd take a good look at my contract and make<BR>
sure that come that day, Hasbro doesn't own the rights to Traveller...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:07:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
> So true.  Hollyweird either discounts the noise of weapons fire entirely,<BR>
> or blows it completelty out of proportion.  I always wondered why I never<BR>
> got those M-16s that have foot-long flaming muzzle blasts, and sound like<BR>
> .454 Casull going off.  All I ever fired was the ones that sound like<BR>
> bubble-wrap being popped.<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
> Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
What I remember vividly about the M16 is the weird "sproing" noise the<BR>
recoil spring made every time you fired.  We did manage to get some good<BR>
flames out of the muzzle, though. When we did night fire, my buddy and I<BR>
were mag loaders.  We qualified last, and as the army hates to turn in<BR>
unfired ammo, we shot so many mags of tracer, glowing flecks were coming out<BR>
the barrel.  Chrome lining no doubt.  God knows how old they were.  Mine was<BR>
marked XM-15 on the receiver IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
Another weird noise in just noticed:  My Accuracy International rifle has a<BR>
VERY free floated barrel.  Sometimes when I fire, I hear a strange<BR>
reverberation.  Accuracy seems fine though.<BR>
<BR>
You can get a pretty good flash from a 16 if you take off the flash<BR>
suppressor.  Nothing so dramatic as my old .220 swift, though, which was<BR>
good for at least a foot.<BR>
<BR>
Now what I want is some of those Hollywood grenades...<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:11:25 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>Cool idea, though, a doubtless the inspiration for the <BR>
>accelerator rifle.<BR>
>As I recall, Niven and Pournelle were quite taken with the<BR>
<BR>
>idea.<BR>
<BR>
Gordon Dickson, in Tactics of Mistake (another must-read<BR>
for anyone running a military campaign), has the cone<BR>
rifle, which is basically an accelerator rifle.  It's not<BR>
as cool as (but more practical than) the dallygun, or<BR>
dial-a-gun, which has different ammo loads that you can<BR>
dial up. (I think the dallygun is somewhere else in the<BR>
Dorsai books, but can't remember which one.)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:15:05 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: M1<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>IMTU, just about everyone uses hearing protection, or has <BR>
>some hearing loss.<BR>
>Makes gauss weapons awfully attractive.<BR>
<BR>
What about the sonic booms of the gauss weapons'<BR>
hypervelocity rounds?  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:01:21 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: IT Geeks<BR>
<BR>
Seems like an awful lot of us Tod.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>
Email     : mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
Website : www.mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Tsykoduk<BR>
> Sent: 24 June 2000 20:03<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: IT Geeks<BR>
><BR>
> Geez, how may people on this list are in IT/MIS?><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:22:51 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
> Alas, in *this* case, it's likely *very* enforceable. Section 8<BR>
> housing. I *know* they won at the federal level with regards to some<BR>
> housing projects back east.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> The lease says no *weapons*, not merely no firearms. It also forbids<BR>
> drugs and alcohol.<BR>
[snip]<BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Leonard, you have my sympathy. Hard to believe this is America.  And what is<BR>
a weapons anyway?  Does that mean you can't have martial artist friends<BR>
over?  What about that 12" boning knife?  Gee, I could poke someone's eyes<BR>
out with a fork.  What, this Luger?  That's not a weapons.  That's a<BR>
government certified curio or relic.  See, here the ATF regulation.  That<BR>
bottle of wine?  My religion dictates that I use it when celebrating my<BR>
Black Mass (Satanism is a protected religion, according to the federal<BR>
courts)<BR>
<BR>
What BS.  I'm sure the lowlife scum in the 'projects' all scrupulously<BR>
follow these regs. Of course the government's objectives seem to be to keep<BR>
us all at their mercy.  Thank you politicians.<BR>
<BR>
Now I know why my characters hang out in starports.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:31:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Model Mugging (now way OT)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> And that may be a problem with some of the advice given to women. The<BR>
> idea about crossing the street to determine if someone is actually<BR>
> following you *is* a good idea. But I've never seen it accompanied by a<BR>
> warning to not make it *obvious* that you are trying to avoid the<BR>
> person. And that's a *major* mistake.<BR>
><BR>
> After all, if you are trying to avoid someone, that tells them that you<BR>
> think they are a danger, which means that you think they can "take<BR>
> you".<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Good point.  One of the things they suggest in Model Mugging is that if you<BR>
think you are being followed, especially if there are others around, it to<BR>
turn around and confront you attacker and announce loudly "WHY ARE YOU<BR>
FOLLOWING ME!"  If you've mad a mistake, you can always apologize.  It is<BR>
certainly disconcerting, and not victim-like behavior.  As my wife says<BR>
"looking forward to being attacked".  Most predator will look for an easier<BR>
mark.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, if you do this on Regina Up Port IMTU, most passers by will<BR>
simply mumble "hey, its none of my business", but then, you never know.<BR>
<BR>
"Gee, who'd a thought she'd have a sawed of shotgun under that coat."<BR>
"Well, next time you'll know.  Now let's see how that stump is healing."<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:34:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
> It required licensing of *firearms* over .50 caliber. Black powder<BR>
> rifles clear up to *60* caliber are unregulated. And as I recall, the<BR>
> Gryojet was killed by expense and it's design shortcomings, not by any<BR>
> gun laws.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Title II, US Code.  It's a destructive device.  $200 tax stamp and a not<BR>
from you local sheriff saying you're a good egg.  Shotguns are specifically<BR>
exempted.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:36:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
> >The rule of thumb I use is<BR>
> >a) Hit the soft parts of the body with a fist<BR>
> >b) Hit the hard parts of the body with the palm or palm<BR>
> >edge<BR>
><BR>
> I would add to b): "or your shod foot, if practical".  Dr.<BR>
> Marten's steel toe applied to the shin bone should pretty<BR>
> well stop the fight.<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The infamous shin rake.  Start with you boot under the knee, scraping down<BR>
the shin and crushing the foot.  Yes, I can attest it works very well.<BR>
Jungle boots--steel shank.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:40:36 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav:  Imagine the potential legal ramifications of a<BR>
>convicted felon (who, having paid the penalty prescribed <BR>
>by the convicting society, is now free) moving about from <BR>
>world to world.  Are there Imperial entanglements to<BR>
>avoid?  <BR>
<BR>
In my Traveller universe, no.  One of the best parts of<BR>
life in the Imperium is that if you really screw up in one<BR>
part of it, you can move to another part.  Member states'<BR>
governments may or may not cooperate as far as sending<BR>
information about convicted criminals to each other.<BR>
Ordinarily, once you've served your sentence, the member<BR>
state will take no further interest in you (until you screw<BR>
up again).<BR>
<BR>
>What organizations/agencies, if any, might intervene if<BR>
>such a person were arrested by a local government that<BR>
>considers the crime of [insert convict's crime here]<BR>
>punishable by death or permanent imprisonment?  <BR>
<BR>
It sounds like your fact pattern is:  D commits crime #1 on<BR>
World X.  World X convicts D, and sentences him to prison<BR>
for several years.  D completes his prison sentence and<BR>
moves to World Y.  On World Y, crime #1 is punishable by<BR>
death.  <BR>
<BR>
Is that correct?<BR>
<BR>
D has nothing to worry about.  D has not committed crime #1<BR>
on World Y; he committed it on World X.  World Y does not<BR>
have jurisdiction over crimes committed on another member<BR>
state.  One of the benefits of membership in the Imperium,<BR>
after all, is complete local autonomy.  That means that<BR>
each member state controls everything in its own star<BR>
system, and no other member state controls anything in that<BR>
star system (more or less).  <BR>
<BR>
If World Y seeks to try D for the crime committed on World<BR>
X, D could actually seek relief in an _Imperial_ court. <BR>
This is one of the rare situations when Imperial<BR>
constitutional law and the Imperial judicial system would<BR>
be accessible to an individual.  <BR>
<BR>
Here are some different fact patterns.  <BR>
1) D commits crime #1 on World X, is convicted and<BR>
sentenced, and serves his prison term.  D moves to World Y.<BR>
 D does not notify World Y that he was convicted of a<BR>
felony on another member state.  World Y's immigration laws<BR>
require such disclosure.  World Y finds out about D's<BR>
conviction and brings appropriate proceedings (prosecution<BR>
and/or deportation being likely).  <BR>
<BR>
2) as 1), but on World Y it is illegal for a convicted<BR>
felon to marry.  D marries F.  World Y prosecutes both,<BR>
seeking the death penalty.  <BR>
<BR>
>Are the PCs who transported the felon to said world liable<BR>
<BR>
>as well?<BR>
<BR>
No; liable for what?  In fact pattern 1), they may be<BR>
accessories to fraudulent non-disclosure, or maybe<BR>
conspirators; you'd have to read the local law.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:46:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
> Gordon Dickson, in Tactics of Mistake (another must-read<BR>
> for anyone running a military campaign), has the cone<BR>
> rifle, which is basically an accelerator rifle.  It's not<BR>
> as cool as (but more practical than) the dallygun, or<BR>
> dial-a-gun, which has different ammo loads that you can<BR>
> dial up. (I think the dallygun is somewhere else in the<BR>
> Dorsai books, but can't remember which one.)<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Have you ever looked at a Colt Defender shotgun?  I've go a picture of one<BR>
on my trav gun site (http://weapons.travellercentral.com see the shotgun<BR>
section and look for 'Boarding Gun')<BR>
<BR>
Eight 20 Ga. barrels set in a cylinder.  The action is like that of a<BR>
revolver, except the firing ping rotates to fire each barrel in succession.<BR>
The hammer has a knurled knob that you could use to select which barrel was<BR>
fired next.  You could have different loads in each barrel.<BR>
<BR>
"hmmmm.  Guy in armor.  I better use barrels 3, 4 and 5.  They've got<BR>
sabotted slugs.  Or maybe 7 and 8, 18mm minigrenade.  No, got to be quiet.<BR>
Teleshot in 1 and two.  Guess I'll just shoot for the head".<BR>
<BR>
In the traveller version of this weapon, I replace the Mace dispenser with a<BR>
50mm squash head spigot grenade.  Just the thing for boarding ships.  And it<BR>
looks darn intimidating too.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:48:51 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: M1<BR>
<BR>
> >IMTU, just about everyone uses hearing protection, or has<BR>
> >some hearing loss.<BR>
> >Makes gauss weapons awfully attractive.<BR>
><BR>
> What about the sonic booms of the gauss weapons'<BR>
> hypervelocity rounds?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Having fired a silenced 7.62x51mm, I can tell you that ballistic crack is<BR>
nothing like muzzle blast.  Certainly nothing that required hearing<BR>
protection.  Of course this was out doors. I can't say what it would be like<BR>
inside.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:50:03 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: Canon<BR>
<BR>
On 06/26/00 at 03:48 PM,  "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>> Didn't LUG just get bought by WOTC?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> If so, then Marc now works for....<what a horrid thought!><BR>
>> <BR>
>> Eris<BR>
>> -- <BR>
>LUG? Please enlighten me.<BR>
<BR>
>And WOTC is now owned by Hasbro (they wanted those Pokemon BAD!)<BR>
<BR>
Yes, that was my understanding.  Hasbro owns WOTC and just gobbled up Last Unicorn Games, the folks that have currently have the RPG licence for Star Trek. <BR>
<BR>
Of course, my understanding may be wrong. <shrug><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:17:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Let me tell you - Sam is in one of the _better_ areas of the<BR>
>> Bronx.  I work for the NYPD in the Bronx, in the 46 Precinct<BR>
>> (West Tremont, Morris Heights, University Heights), and we've<BR>
>> arrested cockroaches (and confiscated their guns) for assault<BR>
>> here.<BR>
<BR>
I want to see a gun designed for use *by* cockroaches. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> Since I'm in Oregon, I have to ask.  What is a cockroach?<BR>
><BR>
> Just kidding. 8} I've seen pictures in books.<BR>
<BR>
Trust me, we've got them here...<BR>
<BR>
> In NYC, they arrest people for dealing without a license for 2 guns. Out<BR>
> here, you'd have to selling hundreds, and they'd probably tell you to just<BR>
> get a license the first time.<BR>
<BR>
I'd love to see their reaction to my late friend the gunsmith's house<BR>
back when he was still alive. A dozen rifles leaning against the wall<BR>
in the hallway, another dozen or so guns (mostly handguns) scattered<BR>
around the living room & dining room. And then there was the basement....<BR>
<BR>
And all these would just be the *visible* guns. And I've not mentioned<BR>
all the swords and knives...<BR>
<BR>
He was obviously a player character.:-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:31:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Secondly, just how useful is a near c rock of asteroidial mass? Seeing as it<BR>
> takes a distance equal to that of the Oort cloud to accelerate to .5 C,<BR>
> wouldn't there be time to detect it and take out the engines?<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget that the detection time is reduced *because* it is<BR>
travelling at near c velocities.<BR>
<BR>
> Also, the<BR>
> problems of accelerating a large mass of non-uniform density are, as they<BR>
> say, nontrivial. Thirdly, a small error in navigation at the beginning of<BR>
> acceleration could result in missing the target entirely. (I think. Somebody<BR>
> more mathematically equipped than me can figure out the numbers, I hope.)<BR>
<BR>
Given any sort of computer power at all, it's not that hard to aim<BR>
properly. It's not as if the planet can dodge.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, there's a neat idea from a short story I read once. The vastly<BR>
superior (technologically) enemy is in the process of capturing a<BR>
system by wiping out the defense fleet. <BR>
<BR>
Alas, they discover that it's a trap. Several ships that had been<BR>
hidding *way* out in the outer system head in at .99 c (which means<BR>
that any sensor returns reach the sensors only a little bit before the<BR>
ships arrive). They are loaded to maximum mass, and collide with each<BR>
other in the middle of the battle.<BR>
<BR>
The resulting explosion and high energy particle flux pretty much wipes<BR>
out the enemy fleet, leaving them weak enough that *their* enemies can<BR>
conquer them, giving the lower tech people a chance to rebuild at a<BR>
high enough tech to be more trouble than they are worth for any future<BR>
conquerors. <BR>
<BR>
This requires precise timing, and a willingness to sacrifuce most of<BR>
your own fleet to wipe out the enemy. But given a situation where your<BR>
fleet won't survive anyway, it may look like a good idea.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:45:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav:  Imagine the potential legal ramifications of a convicted felon<BR>
> (who, having paid the penalty prescribed by the convicting society, is<BR>
> now free) moving about from world to world.  Are there Imperial<BR>
> entanglements to avoid?  What organizations/agencies, if any, might<BR>
> intervene if such a person were arrested by a local government that<BR>
> considers the crime of [insert convict's crime here] punishable by death<BR>
> or permanent imprisonment?  Are the PCs who transported the felon to<BR>
> said world liable as well?<BR>
<BR>
To work *at all*, Imperial law *must* require that planet's only be<BR>
able to punish for offenses that happen *inside* their jursidiction.<BR>
And also that once someone has been punished for a given offence (or<BR>
found innocent) in *any* relevant jurisdiction, no other jurisdiction<BR>
may go after them for the offense. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:14:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>A bit of reality. I have actually *tried* to severely<BR>
>>injure/kill someone. Fortunately for all concerned, they <BR>
>>were able to out run me. <BR>
>>It was back in grade school. A neighborhood bully pushed<BR>
>>me too far, and there was an axe handy...<BR>
><BR>
> I think the DSM-IV recognizes the "bully" personality<BR>
> disorder, and I like your therapy approach.  Instinctive,<BR>
> not cognitive, sure to work on any level (i.e., whether he<BR>
> escapes or not he's probably cured of being a bully).<BR>
<BR>
Alas, I was *so* incapable of catching him that he was laughing. I also<BR>
don't think he took me very seriously.  :-(<BR>
<BR>
> The thought of you at age 5 or so with an axe reminded me<BR>
> of the little monster in Ju Dou for some reason -- very<BR>
> different context, however.<BR>
<BR>
Try age 10 or so.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:06:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Canon<BR>
<BR>
> *sigh*  Yeah, one of things hat got me pysched about doing Ground Forces<BR>
> was "now I can win arguments on the TML about the Army by reminding people<BR>
> that I wrote the book on the subject."  In my dreams.<BR>
> --<BR>
<BR>
Enlighten me about Ground Forces. Status? etc.  GT: Star mercs seems to<BR>
implay there is no Army to speak of, just the Imperial Marines.  I have<BR>
trouble with this.  Marines are typically light forces.  They are meant to<BR>
be easy to transport.  When it's time for serious ground combat, you send in<BR>
the army, with their heavy armor, artillery and huge logitical train.<BR>
Marines trained in special techniques like Zero-G would seem to be wasted in<BR>
large scale ground combat.<BR>
<BR>
Please nelighten me if I've got this wrong.  Maybe I'm just sensitive<BR>
because I was a dumb Army leg.  As we referred to our MOS and branch<BR>
insignia in the infantry "Idiot Sticks".<BR>
<BR>
Which brings up the question of prior service representation on the TML and<BR>
Traveller in general.  What's the ratio of Army, Marine and other services<BR>
on the TML.  How about the creators prior service, if any (Marc, Loren etc).<BR>
Inquiring minds want to know.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Started off 11B and branched Infantry--that's how smart I am" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
That's army infantry for those who didn't spend any time working for 'Uncle<BR>
Sugar'.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:07:37 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: M1<BR>
<BR>
On 06/26/00 at 03:56 PM,  "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>><BR>
>> Hee, hee! Well, I got that right then. In a game I'm GMing, I<BR>
>> just deafened (temporarily) a vargr in the aftermath of an<BR>
>> explosion.  Now, my question is, how slowly should his hearing return?<BR>
>><BR>
>That would depend on the explosion.  Possibly never, or at least back to<BR>
>normal.  I remember having an artillery simulator go off a foot or so<BR>
>from my face during and FTX.  I was deaf as a post for about a day and a<BR>
>half, and had no balance for about a half hour.<BR>
<BR>
>The AD in the car that I described earlier (.45 cap in a Ford sedan) left<BR>
>my ears ringing for less than an hour.<BR>
<BR>
Dang!  I did pretty good.  He was 3 meters from the explosion<BR>
protected by half a doorway and two bodies.  He got knocked back<BR>
into the corridor on his tail.  Had no balance for about 30 minutes<BR>
and a ringing in his ears for several hours.  Now, several hours<BR>
later he is just starting to hear sounds, but most conversation is<BR>
at the level of "mumble you mumble mumble I'm mumble?" <g><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:10:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Canon<BR>
<BR>
> >And WOTC is now owned by Hasbro (they wanted those Pokemon BAD!)<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, that was my understanding.  Hasbro owns WOTC and just<BR>
> gobbled up Last Unicorn Games, the folks that have currently have<BR>
> the RPG license for Star Trek.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course, my understanding may be wrong. <shrug><BR>
><BR>
> Eris<BR>
<BR>
Well, I was glad to see it happen (WOTC eaten by Hasbro) but mostly because<BR>
I have a friend who works at WOTC (actually 5 Rings Publishing--gobbled up<BR>
by WOTC).  She got a really nice return on her options.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm. Star Trek, brought to you by Hasbro.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:11:59 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler wrote :-<BR>
> Even if the local lifeforms couldn't evolve to infect the transplanted<BR>
> humans, or for some reason they were lazy little bugs and didn't want to<BR>
> bother with trying to evolve to infect us, we carry a large number of<BR>
> symbiotic organisms in our bodies<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Vland has its own ecology for our gut (and other) bacteria to contend<BR>
with, built on a substantially different biochemistry, as you have<BR>
noted. The number of niches available for them is therefore reduced.<BR>
<BR>
They are very dependent on their human hosts for survival. Once in a<BR>
while some organisms are able to survive 'on their own' - these end up<BR>
forming slime towers - colonies - in various places. <BR>
<BR>
Viruses such as influenza require an animal reservoir. So the Vilani are<BR>
largely virus naive. Hmm... wart and herpes virus are another kettle of<BR>
fish - perhaps they weren't transported there.<BR>
<BR>
> _They_ are going to evolve to infect the local life, and will probably be<BR>
> still able to cause problems for the humans as well.<BR>
<BR>
Over on the Trav-Culture list, we posited that the hostile environment<BR>
inside and on native Vilani life was sufficient to keep the imported<BR>
bacteria on the defensive (alternate genetic code, protein and<BR>
glycobiology, plus their immune systems). <BR>
<BR>
Once in a very great while a virulent mutant will arise. Since they are<BR>
lethal to their host, they don't get to reproduce for long.<BR>
<BR>
These outbreaks of contagion would certainly have been the stuff of<BR>
legend - but recognising them as infectious disease may not have taken<BR>
place until the interstellar age, when the Vilani started colonising<BR>
other worlds with more compatible biochemistries.<BR>
<BR>
Some antibiotics and primitive antivirals must be in the pharmacopoeia<BR>
by the time of contact with the Terrans ; the primary antiviral<BR>
treatment is immunisation, either passive or active (pooled donor<BR>
serum).<BR>
<BR>
<background note><BR>
My - ?dissenting? - take on Vilani medicine is that the profession arose<BR>
out of the same caste as that which eventually gave rise to the<BR>
emergency services/law enforcement. So community health and prevention<BR>
are emphasised over treatment of individuals ; and cost to the community<BR>
is a key consideration on whether treatment modalities are used at all.<BR>
	This leads to a situation where at TTL 8, for example, there is no<BR>
organ transplantation of any sort, no neonatal intensive care and many<BR>
malignancies are palliated (i.e. go home with analgesics).<BR>
	Conveniently, this leads to the canonical biotech lag between the two<BR>
cultures.<BR>
</background note><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:19:54 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
Oops! I wrote :-<BR>
> Over on the Trav-Culture list, we posited that the hostile environment<BR>
> inside and on native Vilani life was sufficient to keep the imported<BR>
> bacteria on the defensive (alternate genetic code, protein and<BR>
> glycobiology, plus their immune systems). <BR>
<BR>
This cuts both ways ; Vland native microbes have a hard time in humans<BR>
for the same reasons.<BR>
<BR>
Different selection pressures, different courses of evolution.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Not an IT guy - but have been stuffing around with computers since 1982.<BR>
(Also the year someone introduced me to the LBB's).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2664<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, June 26 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2665<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Any audiologist out there?<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Model Mugging (now way OT)<BR>
Maps Files<BR>
Re : Hearing loss (was Re : M1, longish)<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Battle Dress and Martial Arts (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
Re: Maps Files<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:25:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
> I'd love to see their reaction to my late friend the gunsmith's house<BR>
> back when he was still alive. A dozen rifles leaning against the wall<BR>
> in the hallway, another dozen or so guns (mostly handguns) scattered<BR>
> around the living room & dining room. And then there was the basement....<BR>
><BR>
> And all these would just be the *visible* guns. And I've not mentioned<BR>
> all the swords and knives...<BR>
><BR>
> He was obviously a player character.:-)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
You'd love to see my buddy Bob's place.  He is a Title II (class 3)<BR>
manufacturer down in Salem.  As you say, guns in every room in the house.<BR>
Rifles, pistols, shotguns and machineguns in every nook and cranny.  I<BR>
particularly liked the 40mm ammo can full of single action Colts, each<BR>
protected by an old sock. 30 or 40 in that one can alone.  Something like<BR>
the bar basement in "Uncommon Valor".<BR>
<BR>
Having 2 small children, I have to keep all my guns in a safe.  And the<BR>
darned thing is just too small!  although this has lead to our in house<BR>
definition of a lot of guns.  A lot of guns is when you're not really sure<BR>
how many guns you've got.<BR>
<BR>
So the next question, ObTrav, is how many guns do your characters typically<BR>
own.  I am especially curious about Eastern US players and all you<BR>
non-America players.  I wonder if local culture effects perceptions on how<BR>
many weapons a character need.  Do British or eastern US players feel that<BR>
their characters are adequately armed with a few small arms?  My players are<BR>
all western type barrel-suckers (gun enthusiasts).  If their characters use<BR>
guns, then they tend to have a lot. One of my players accumulated enough<BR>
weapons to arms a small mercenary unit, and lived in a warehouse, vault so<BR>
he could store them all.<BR>
<BR>
Just curious<BR>
<BR>
Tod "I have enough guns - just ask my wife" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:28:35 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Tod replied to Leonard:<BR>
>> BTW, my lease says this building is Law Level F or so (no weapons<BR>
>> allowed on premises) so my guns live with a friend. <sigh><BR>
><BR>
>Well, there's something just wrong about that.<BR>
<BR>
I find it more wrong that you live somewhere where you actually need to be that<BR>
concerned about personal safety.<BR>
<BR>
(BTW, this is NOT a comment about whether guns themselves are bad or not, I just<BR>
really feel sad that you have to live in such an unsafe environment).<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:03:19 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> > >We've Discussed stuff like this often.  One of my project s a .54 caliber<BR>
> > >air rifle fed from scuba tanks.  Kind of a modern day Contriner.<BR>
> >  The answer<BR>
> > >is, neither it nor a gauss rifle under federal law are firearms,<BR>
> > and hence<BR>
> > >not regulated.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > There was a gyrojet rifle produced in the early 60's here in the States.<BR>
> > It fires a 13mm rocket.  The GCA of 1968 killed it.  The Gun Control Act<BR>
> > required federal licensing of anything over .50 caliber.  13mm is<BR>
> > .51 caliber.<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> Actually, MBA associated also produced a 12mm version that was legal.  The<BR>
> problem was the gun had no accuracy at long range, and no hitting power at<BR>
> short range. And the ammo was not cheap.  The gun buying public, not GCA,<BR>
> killed the gyrojet.  10 or 15 years ago you could buy a gyrojet cheap<BR>
> through the Shotgun News.  Now they're very expensive collectors items, gone<BR>
> the way of the Dardik and the Colt2000.<BR>
><BR>
> Cool idea, though, a doubtless the inspiration for the accelerator rifle.<BR>
> As I recall, Niven and Pournelle were quite taken with the idea.<BR>
><BR>
> With regard to the air gun mentioned above.  Most people are unaware of<BR>
> their potential.  The Austrian army deployed a big bore air gun (.69 cal<BR>
> IIRC) during the Napoleonic wars.  It was rifles and held 15 rounds of lead<BR>
> ball.  I could be fire a quickly as an manually operated rifle of today, and<BR>
> could kill a man at 150 yards.  Compared with the muskets in common use, it<BR>
> was phenomenally advanced and lethal (and expensive to produce).<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
IIRC the other side regarded these as "too lethal" and tended to execute anyone<BR>
found with one...C17 WoMD anyone?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:00:06 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Any audiologist out there?<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Tos wrote:<BR>
>Any audiologist out there?<BR>
<BR>
Pardon?<BR>
<BR>
<slaps self> Stop it, that was _too_ easy!<BR>
<BR>
- - Hyphen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:55:30 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
OK, one post to catch me up for the afternoon. Follow the bouncing<BR>
attributions...<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote,<BR>
>Getting back to the bit on Vilani dietary habits.  "Don't fear the man who<BR>
bites you.  Fear the one who bites you, chews and swallows".<<BR>
<BR>
Ewwwwww.<BR>
Definitely.<BR>
<BR>
Russel B. wrote,<BR>
>I really like the way Champions does martial arts. Essentially, as with<BR>
everything in Champs, you buy the effects you want and then call it whatever<BR>
you like.<<BR>
<BR>
To me the critical points of the Champions 4th ed were;<BR>
1. You could get the same effects with skill levels,<BR>
2. Even streetfighting could be a "martial art".<BR>
<BR>
Mark Urbin wrote,<BR>
>The rule of thumb I use is<BR>
a) Hit the soft parts of the body with a fist<BR>
b) Hit the hard parts of the body with the palm or palm edge<<BR>
<BR>
That's a pretty good rule to use.<BR>
<BR>
>There are a lot of small bones in the hand that are too easy to break.<<BR>
<BR>
Very true. I've had two students break their hand punching people in the<BR>
face the "wrong" way then come to me and tell me I was "right" about how I'd<BR>
told them to do it.<BR>
Fortunately they both won anyway.<BR>
<BR>
>Of course, this is a rule of thumb, and there are exceptions.<BR>
One of the things you learn in MA is how to hit hard things with your fist<BR>
without breaking your hand.<BR>
Given that, I've seen people very experienced in breaking hard objects,<BR>
pound through several stacks of cinder blocks, only to break their hand on<BR>
the last one.<<BR>
<BR>
Rule of thumb when watching breaking; Spacers are usually for fake breaks.<BR>
That is, the person breaks the top object in the stack which then breaks the<BR>
rest. If you ever see someone break multiple objects without spacers, never<BR>
let them come within 50' of hitting you.<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote,<BR>
>My rule of thumb is nerev hit someone with your had when there'something<BR>
else available.  For this reason I've always thought of any martial arts<BR>
that use the stick as particularly worth noting.  A stick is usually not<BR>
dard to obtain (read that a pool cue, garden hoe, etc.)  A friend's father,<BR>
former Special Forces unarmed combat instructor and judo enthusiast, had<BR>
particular fondness for the rolled up newspaper or magazine.  I knew People<BR>
Magazine could be hazardous, but never imagined that you could quite easily<BR>
kill someone with it.<<BR>
<BR>
A little known fact (although disputed by some historians) is that until the<BR>
introduction of Karate to the school system in Okinawa and Japan, weapons<BR>
were always taught as a base part of the art. It was only after that it<BR>
became separated as its own system.<BR>
I carry a keychain with a nice round projection at one end and two small<BR>
rods that stick out between my fingers. A keychain, not a fistload with<BR>
spikes. It said it on the box and it has a little ring on it. So leave me<BR>
alone.<BR>
<BR>
Thorn Harris wrote,<BR>
>What do you mean LAST resort. You sound like a Mike Tyson kind of fighter.<BR>
If he had started with biting, Holyfield would have kept his head up and not<BR>
been doing so much butting. He would be way too busy watching Tyson's<BR>
mouth.......<<BR>
<BR>
1. AIDS.<BR>
2. People with jaws strong enough to sever fingers before you can dislocate<BR>
those jaws.<BR>
Otherwise it would be a first choice.<BR>
Oh, and I teach headbutting to select people as well.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote,<BR>
>On the other hand, one of the more painful stories to merely *listen*<BR>
to that I've ever heard was someone in the SCA describing the time a<BR>
stray blow moved his cup about 6 inches to one side. By "squeezing"<BR>
everything inside under one edge.... <wince><<BR>
<BR>
*SHUDDER*<BR>
I could tell you horror stories about how a cup doesn't protect,<BR>
unfortunately from personal experience.<BR>
OTOH, I also advise not to try targeting that place. It is easier to hit the<BR>
groin plexus  (about 1-2" below the belly button) effectively or to simply<BR>
drive a knee into the upper thigh giving the mother of all charlie horses.<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote,<BR>
>I would add to b): "or your shod foot, if practical".  Dr.<BR>
Marten's steel toe applied to the shin bone should pretty<BR>
well stop the fight.  <<BR>
<BR>
The side of your shoe, especially hard soled ones, raking down the shin then<BR>
driving into the instep. If he's not shrieking in agony from the flayed<BR>
shin, he will be from the shattered foot. Either way, he won't chase you if<BR>
you run.<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote,<BR>
>The infamous shin rake.  Start with you boot under the knee, scraping down<BR>
the shin and crushing the foot.  Yes, I can attest it works very well.<BR>
Jungle boots--steel shank.<<BR>
<BR>
Damn...<BR>
:-P<BR>
<BR>
OK, tha'ts one...<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:05:58 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Model Mugging (now way OT)<BR>
<BR>
Russell B. wrote,<BR>
>While the padded muggers in Model Mugging don't go for disabling attacks<BR>
themselves, they *do* grab in an offensive manner, as well as talk trash<BR>
to the students.<<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like the right way to do it.<BR>
<BR>
>Someone who's had MM and no other training obviously isn't going to be<BR>
able to take a really experienced fighter, even pound for pound, but<BR>
there's a whole class of lowlife who's counting on being able to simply<BR>
intimidate a lone woman into submission. The graduates of MM are, I<BR>
think, well-equipped to deal with those.<<BR>
<BR>
Then they are better than the typical group I see publicized on TV. That is<BR>
what you have to train your students to do and it does sound like they are<BR>
on target worth their methods then.<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote,<BR>
>Have any other martial artists observed this phenomena?<<BR>
<BR>
Constantly. It is one of the core concepts we work with. From "Karate is 10%<BR>
physical, 90% mental" to "Attitude determines Aptitude", there are numerous<BR>
quotes that embody this concept.<BR>
Further, looking like a target makes you a target. That is one of the first<BR>
things I tell people when trying to teach them not to be.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:12:25 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Maps Files<BR>
<BR>
Inspection reveals that geocities is behaving abominably when trying to deliver .pdf files.  Given that, I should probably move the files somewhere else.<BR>
<BR>
Older versions of some of the mapping files are at sj games, but on reflection I'd prefer a location where I can directly upload file updates.<BR>
<BR>
Is such a site available?<BR>
<BR>
As a separate question, do people prefer multiple pdf files or a single large (2-3 MB) file containing all sectors?  Since I currently have 73 different sectors, I suspect the second, but...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:05:43 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Hearing loss (was Re : M1, longish)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote :-<BR>
> > Now, my question is, how slowly should his hearing return?<BR>
> ><BR>
> That would depend on the explosion.<BR>
<snip><BR>
> Any audiologist out there?<BR>
<BR>
O.K. Two mechanisms could be responsible :-<BR>
1. Nerve deafness due to a shift in threshold (a protective response).<BR>
This is frequency and power dependent, with the worst effects over the<BR>
2-8kHz range (speech 500-5000Hz). <BR>
     Recovery after an acute stimulus (up to 15 min at 120dB) can take<BR>
up to 3 days ; the 2-4kHz ranges are particularly vulnerable.<BR>
<BR>
2. Direct damage to the eardrum (peak pressure differential across the<BR>
membrane 100-500mm mercury (0.14-0.7 ATA) will lead to rupture). Note<BR>
that permanent damage to the cochlea only requires pressure<BR>
differentials as small as 0.002 ATA.<BR>
<BR>
Damage to the vestibular system is also possible (overwhelming<BR>
stimulation of the cochlea, leading to problems with balance, etc. via a<BR>
'spillover' effect). This is temporary and follows a similar time course<BR>
to that of the cochlear nerves. <BR>
<BR>
Note that the decibel scale is logarithmic :-<BR>
dB = 10 log (sound intensity/reference intensity) OR<BR>
   = 20 log (sound pressure/reference pressure)<BR>
<BR>
So the range of pressure from just audible to cochlear damage is some<BR>
seven orders of magnitude (10 million-fold range).<BR>
<BR>
Hearing Handicap (ISO, 1964)<BR>
Threshold, dB (at 500 and 2000Hz in good ear)<BR>
< 25 : Normal - no difficulty with faint speech<BR>
< 40 : Slight - difficulty with faint speech<BR>
< 55 : Mild - frequent difficulty with normal speech<BR>
< 70 : Marked - frequent difficulty with loud speech<BR>
< 90 : Severe - can only understand shouted or amplified speech<BR>
> 90 : Extreme - usually can't understand even amplified speech<BR>
<BR>
Some reference points :-<BR>
Sound level, dB<BR>
0 - threshold of hearing (0.0002 dyne/cm^2)<BR>
20 - whisper<BR>
<other levels as above><BR>
80 - heavy traffic, operating theatre (esp. orthopaedic surgery)<BR>
100 - live rock concert (near speakers), subway<BR>
120 - discomfort<BR>
140 - pain threshold<BR>
150 - permanent deafness likely with exposure of more than 20 mins<BR>
duration<BR>
160 - jet plane with afterburner<BR>
200 - Saturn V at liftoff (near pad)<BR>
210 - Horn of Jericho - bores holes in things. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
- ----------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Oops! #2<BR>
In :-<BR>
Subject: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:11:59 +1000<BR>
<BR>
I wrote :-<BR>
> the primary antiviral<BR>
> treatment is immunisation, either passive or active (pooled donor<BR>
> serum).<BR>
<BR>
Passive immunisation is the provision of antibodies, so pooled donor<BR>
serum is used.<BR>
Active immunisation is the administration of an antigenic substance to<BR>
induce host immunity (most vaccines).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:26:47 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 06/26/00 at 03:48 PM,  "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> said:<BR>
><BR>
> >>> Didn't LUG just get bought by WOTC?<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> If so, then Marc now works for....<what a horrid thought!><BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Eris<BR>
> >> --<BR>
> >LUG? Please enlighten me.<BR>
><BR>
> >And WOTC is now owned by Hasbro (they wanted those Pokemon BAD!)<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, that was my understanding.  Hasbro owns WOTC and just gobbled up Last Unicorn Games, the folks that have currently have the RPG licence for Star Trek.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course, my understanding may be wrong. <shrug><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Does anyone know if the command team at WOTC ever worked for Microsoft?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:15:33 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Gregory wrote:<BR>
>> Didn't LUG just get bought by WOTC?<BR>
>><BR>
>> If so, then Marc now works for....<what a horrid thought!><BR>
><BR>
>Indeed.  As of July 5th (IIRC) LUG employees will be WTOC/Hasbro<BR>
>employees.  If I were Marc, I'd take a good look at my contract and make<BR>
>sure that come that day, Hasbro doesn't own the rights to Traveller...<BR>
<BR>
Arrgle! Danger Will Robinson! Marc, can you confirm or deny this situation?<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:22:09 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin wrote,<BR>
>Let me tell you - Sam is in one of the _better_ areas of the<BR>
Bronx.  I work for the NYPD in the Bronx, in the 46 Precinct<BR>
(West Tremont, Morris Heights, University Heights), and we've<BR>
arrested cockroaches (and confiscated their guns) for assault<BR>
here.<<BR>
<BR>
You don't know some of the rats I see coming off the River. (I'm in Co-op<BR>
City myself.)<BR>
Size of small dogs some of them.<BR>
But yeah, I know your side too.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote,<BR>
>I want to see a gun designed for use *by* cockroaches. :-)<<BR>
<BR>
Dude, the mothers around here use regular gun. And they get real trigger<BR>
happy when some fool tries breaking out some Raid on them.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:27:48 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress and Martial Arts (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen wrote,<BR>
>FWIW, the first joint lock they teach you in aikido was originally used<BR>
against an armored foe. The idea was to rotate his arm over and expose the<BR>
armpit, so you could stab that unarmored location.<BR>
<BR>
I'm guessing that joint locks, especially the ones that cause pain, are<BR>
useful even against an armored opponent. We used to say that nikkyo could<BR>
bring down anyone, no matter how big. Also, throws can work: you probably<BR>
won't damage the person inside the suit, but the fall might still stun them.<BR>
<BR>
Just my very unscientific Cr .02. I'm sure Samwise can comment more about<BR>
how to use strikes against battle dress :)<<BR>
<BR>
A lot of people disagree with this, but most basic "blocks"  can set people<BR>
up for strikes to vulnerable areas - like under the armpit.<BR>
As for battle dress, I wouldn't strike - wou'd break whatever unclad body<BR>
part you were striking with. I do a throw and then jump on the guys back as<BR>
the wiggle in the mud, doing my best to scrag various vents or exposed<BR>
wires.<BR>
Now if you mean battle dress to battle dress unarmed combat...that would be<BR>
weird, but possible. I think.<BR>
Hmmm....<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:28:13 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Was Written:<BR>
<BR>
>>>A bit of reality. I have actually *tried* to severely<BR>
>>>injure/kill someone. Fortunately for all concerned, they<BR>
>>>were able to out run me.<BR>
>>>It was back in grade school. A neighborhood bully pushed<BR>
>>>me too far, and there was an axe handy...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Alas, I was *so* incapable of catching him that he was laughing. I also<BR>
>don't think he took me very seriously.  :-(<BR>
><BR>
>> The thought of you at age 5 or so with an axe reminded me<BR>
>> of the little monster in Ju Dou for some reason -- very<BR>
>> different context, however.<BR>
><BR>
>Try age 10 or so.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Check out the biography of Egil Skalagrimson, famous Icelandic poet.  At the<BR>
approximate age of eight he was a scrum playing a version of Norse football<BR>
with the bigger lads.  One of them fouled him.  Egil took offense, went to<BR>
the side lines and picked up his trusty handy dandy little beard axe.  He<BR>
then buried said axe in his play mate's skull thus sending him to Valhalla.<BR>
Different strokes for different folks, sounds to to me like you were born<BR>
just a tad to late.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:06:28 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 6:03 PM, Robert Houghton at rhoughto@one.net.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> With regard to the air gun mentioned above.  Most people are unaware of<BR>
>> their potential.  The Austrian army deployed a big bore air gun (.69 cal<BR>
>> IIRC) during the Napoleonic wars.  It was rifles and held 15 rounds of lead<BR>
>> ball.  I could be fire a quickly as an manually operated rifle of today, and<BR>
>> could kill a man at 150 yards.  Compared with the muskets in common use, it<BR>
>> was phenomenally advanced and lethal (and expensive to produce).<BR>
>> <BR>
> <BR>
> IIRC the other side regarded these as "too lethal" and tended to execute<BR>
> anyone<BR>
> found with one...C17 WoMD anyone?<BR>
> <BR>
> Other Rob<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
It has been reported that Napoleon ordered than any Austrian caught with an<BR>
airgun was to be executed.  To my knowledge, the has never been any actual<BR>
substantiation of this.  Some have suggested that this execute order was the<BR>
reason airguns were not more widely used.  The truth is a simple matter of<BR>
economics. The cost too darned much.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:01:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
<BR>
>>    So would that make Mike Tyson a Vilani?  *weg*  (Note:  If Mike Tyson<BR>
>>the Boxer is on the list, I am a big fan of yours & please do not find me<BR>
>>& beat the cr*p out of me.)<BR>
><BR>
>LOL! Good one.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Thank you, but as the Vilani might enjoy long pork, & Tyson does too,<BR>
makes you wonder.<BR>
<BR>
>Ah, you know it was just that Evander had such big ears and Mike was *soo*<BR>
hungry trying to keep his weight down, and that big old ear was right<BR>
there....well he couldn't help himself. <g><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    LOL, Good one, Eris.<BR>
<BR>
>Eris,<BR>
>    ps. I know heavyweights don't have to meet a weight limit.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    OK.  Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:05:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>*sigh*  Yeah, one of things hat got me pysched about doing Ground Forces<BR>
>was "now I can win arguments on the TML about the Army by reminding people<BR>
>that I wrote the book on the subject."  In my dreams.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Doug we will listen to you as much then as we do now.  *weg*<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:07:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
<BR>
>>    Tod, look at it this way, now everything for LUGTrek is also<BR>
>>Traveller canon.  *weg*<BR>
><BR>
>Didn't LUG just get bought by WOTC?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    No, there has just been a letter of intent.  Nothing more, nothing less.<BR>
<BR>
>If so, then Marc now works for....<what a horrid thought!><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Not yet.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:07:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>LUG? Please enlighten me.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Last Unicorn Games.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:17:15 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Maps Files<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 6:12 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Inspection reveals that geocities is behaving abominably when trying to<BR>
> deliver .pdf files.  Given that, I should probably move the files somewhere<BR>
> else.<BR>
> <BR>
> Older versions of some of the mapping files are at sj games, but on reflection<BR>
> I'd prefer a location where I can directly upload file updates.<BR>
> <BR>
> Is such a site available?<BR>
> <BR>
> As a separate question, do people prefer multiple pdf files or a single large<BR>
> (2-3 MB) file containing all sectors?  Since I currently have 73 different<BR>
> sectors, I suspect the second, but...<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
If you are looking for a host for traveller material, I have a whole server<BR>
to myself.  PIII running Solaris and attached to the internet via 384k<BR>
bi-directional DSL.  Baked up to tape nightly.<BR>
<BR>
My only request for people who want accounts is that the material must be<BR>
traveller related, and that I get real contact information for the user.  I<BR>
don't share this information with anyone else, I just want to be able to<BR>
track down anyone who misuses my computer.<BR>
<BR>
I have 6 websites running on this server, and can provide a virtual web<BR>
server, or space on one of my traveller websites.  I have plenty of FTP<BR>
space available.<BR>
<BR>
There are no adds, banner or other crud allowed.  This is for traveller<BR>
only, and as a service to the traveller community.<BR>
<BR>
If you would like access, email me directly, and I can get you whatever<BR>
details, and discus my requirements with you.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2665<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2666</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, June 26 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2666<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Battle Dress and Martial Arts (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
Apology<BR>
RE: not so small arms<BR>
RE: not so small arms<BR>
RE: M1<BR>
RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
RE: not so small arms<BR>
Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: M1<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Battle Dress martial arts<BR>
Re: M1<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
RE: M1<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
Re: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:27:09 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress and Martial Arts (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 6:27 PM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Now if you mean battle dress to battle dress unarmed combat...that would be<BR>
> weird, but possible. I think.<BR>
> Hmmm....<BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
That was my question.  What about battledress HTH combat.  Does martial arts<BR>
apply, or Battledress kill.  Is it more like kung fu or demolition derby.  I<BR>
would guess it would depend on home much you wear battledress vs. how much<BR>
you pilot it.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe a user with higher battledress knows the limitations of range of<BR>
motion or battledress weaknesses, or how to make battledress do things the<BR>
manual says you can't (rocket powered axe kick, aerobatic back flip with<BR>
double elbow strike to the power condensor).<BR>
<BR>
Thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:35:52 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Apology<BR>
<BR>
Ok, I seem to be having a typing crisis.  Sorry about all the hard to read<BR>
posts.  I'll try to do better.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:36:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
In re air guns -<BR>
<BR>
My paintball rifle can get a .68 caliber paintball up to 400 fps real easy<BR>
(Note: I do not. I tend to shoot at 280fps as any responsible paintballer<BR>
should. 280 hurts more then enuf), and I can get well over 500 shots out of<BR>
a 12oz bottle of CO2.<BR>
<BR>
I have always thought that a DS round for the thing would be the trick :)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn<BR>
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 12:34 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >We've Discussed stuff like this often.  One of my project s a .54 caliber<BR>
> >air rifle fed from scuba tanks.  Kind of a modern day Contriner.<BR>
>  The answer<BR>
> >is, neither it nor a gauss rifle under federal law are firearms,<BR>
> and hence<BR>
> >not regulated.<BR>
><BR>
> There was a gyrojet rifle produced in the early 60's here in the States.<BR>
> It fires a 13mm rocket.  The GCA of 1968 killed it.  The Gun Control Act<BR>
> required federal licensing of anything over .50 caliber.  13mm is<BR>
> .51 caliber.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Actually, MBA associated also produced a 12mm version that was legal.  The<BR>
problem was the gun had no accuracy at long range, and no hitting power at<BR>
short range. And the ammo was not cheap.  The gun buying public, not GCA,<BR>
killed the gyrojet.  10 or 15 years ago you could buy a gyrojet cheap<BR>
through the Shotgun News.  Now they're very expensive collectors items, gone<BR>
the way of the Dardik and the Colt2000.<BR>
<BR>
Cool idea, though, a doubtless the inspiration for the accelerator rifle.<BR>
As I recall, Niven and Pournelle were quite taken with the idea.<BR>
<BR>
With regard to the air gun mentioned above.  Most people are unaware of<BR>
their potential.  The Austrian army deployed a big bore air gun (.69 cal<BR>
IIRC) during the Napoleonic wars.  It was rifles and held 15 rounds of lead<BR>
ball.  I could be fire a quickly as an manually operated rifle of today, and<BR>
could kill a man at 150 yards.  Compared with the muskets in common use, it<BR>
was phenomenally advanced and lethal (and expensive to produce).<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav I once ran a game on a planet with a tainted atmosphere--tainted by<BR>
combustible gasses.  Fire arms were verbotten.  Who wants to shoot and set<BR>
off a 10,000 cubic meter pocket of methane?  Build an air rifle at TL 7 of<BR>
say .50 caliber using tanks at 3,000 psi.  Use a .357 jacketed bullet in a<BR>
plastic sabot (black powder shooters use these) and you've really got<BR>
something.  Not nearly as load as a firearm (but quite loud, ever heard an<BR>
air-wrench).<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:41:04 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
On 26 Jun 00, at 12:34, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav I once ran a game on a planet with a tainted atmosphere--tainted by<BR>
> combustible gasses.  Fire arms were verbotten.  Who wants to shoot and set<BR>
> off a 10,000 cubic meter pocket of methane?  Build an air rifle at TL 7 of<BR>
> say .50 caliber using tanks at 3,000 psi.  Use a .357 jacketed bullet in a<BR>
> plastic sabot (black powder shooters use these) and you've really got<BR>
> something.  Not nearly as load as a firearm (but quite loud, ever heard an<BR>
> air-wrench).<BR>
<BR>
I remember those things :) I used to have a .45 blackpowder rifle and <BR>
considered getting some of the sabots and bullets, but decided it was <BR>
unnecessary. My rifle was a modern design and the maximum recommended <BR>
loading was quite high and after finding that at 15 yards the max load <BR>
would put a .45" lead ball through 1/4" mild steel plate I figured <BR>
there was no need for a expansive modern bullet for shooting just about <BR>
anything you'd find in this country.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:41:04 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: M1<BR>
<BR>
On 26 Jun 00, at 13:12, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> IMTU, just about everyone uses hearing protection, or has some hearing<BR>
> loss.<BR>
> <BR>
> Makes gauss weapons awfully attractive.<BR>
<BR>
Near misses from them would probably also cause hearing damage. <BR>
Remember that the projectile is still supersonic, so it makes that <BR>
lovely "snap" sound that normal bullets make too. From experience in <BR>
the butts of rifle ranges that sonic "boom" is _very_ loud and without <BR>
hearing protection it'd cause damage fairly quickly.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:46:28 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) had written:<BR>
>> The lease says no *weapons*, not merely no firearms. <BR>
<BR>
I deleted Tod's reply, with which I concur.  "No weapons"<BR>
is really a problem, unless weapon is defined to mean<BR>
something designed primarily for the purpose of causing<BR>
injury to other people or animals.  If it's anything that<BR>
can be used as a weapon, it's unenforceable:  no scissors;<BR>
no fire; nothing flammable; no flammable liquids; no<BR>
ammonia; no bottles; hell, I'm still in the kitchen!  <BR>
<BR>
That level of regulation is attempted in prisons, where the<BR>
security risk is much greater, the population has a proven<BR>
predisposition toward violence, and there is nearly total<BR>
institutional control over all facets of behavior, but it<BR>
just can't work in life outside.  <BR>
<BR>
(Then there's the problem of things that were not designed<BR>
to be used as weapons, but that's the only reason the<BR>
resident owns them:  one five-iron, for example, but no<BR>
other golf clubs, or a baseball bat.)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:51:22 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
><BR>
>Have you ever looked at a Colt Defender shotgun?  I've go<BR>
>a picture of one on my trav gun site <BR>
>(http://weapons.travellercentral.com see the shotgun<BR>
>section and look for 'Boarding Gun')<BR>
<BR>
Very cool.  I'm going to bookmark your site now.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:51:18 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
At 10:11 AM +1000 6/27/00, Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
>Rodney Basler wrote :-<BR>
>  > Even if the local lifeforms couldn't evolve to infect the transplanted<BR>
>  > humans, or for some reason they were lazy little bugs and didn't want to<BR>
>  > bother with trying to evolve to infect us, we carry a large number of<BR>
>  > symbiotic organisms in our bodies<BR>
><snip><BR>
><BR>
>Vland has its own ecology for our gut (and other) bacteria to contend<BR>
>with, built on a substantially different biochemistry, as you have<BR>
>noted. The number of niches available for them is therefore reduced.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that if we can survive on Vland (even with<BR>
food processing) then so can our bacteria (by definition<BR>
there must by amino acids and oxygen, that alone is enough).<BR>
Also, even if the Ancients sterilized the import humans<BR>
(which isn't unreasonable), if we can survive on Vland<BR>
(ie there are amino acids<BR>
around for us to eat and oxygen to breath) then there will<BR>
be bacteria to Vland that can infect us.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:52:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
On 26 Jun 00, at 19:46, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> <BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) had written:<BR>
> >> The lease says no *weapons*, not merely no firearms. <BR>
> <BR>
> I deleted Tod's reply, with which I concur.  "No weapons"<BR>
> is really a problem, unless weapon is defined to mean<BR>
> something designed primarily for the purpose of causing<BR>
> injury to other people or animals.  If it's anything that<BR>
> can be used as a weapon, it's unenforceable:  no scissors;<BR>
> no fire; nothing flammable; no flammable liquids; no<BR>
> ammonia; no bottles; hell, I'm still in the kitchen!  <BR>
<BR>
How are you supposed to cut up your steak? Any knife can be a weapon, <BR>
and any somewhat sharp one already is. And don't forget screwdrivers - <BR>
they're already somewhat sharp, and 5 minutes with a bit of concrete as <BR>
a stone and they're deadly.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:56:50 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>To work *at all*, Imperial law *must* require that<BR>
>planet's only be able to punish for offenses that happen <BR>
>*inside* their jursidiction. And also that once someone <BR>
>has been punished for a given offence (or found innocent)<BR>
>in *any* relevant jurisdiction, no other jurisdiction <BR>
>may go after them for the offense. <BR>
<BR>
Agreed, in general.  The Imperium may reserve the right to<BR>
prosecute for violations of Imperial law that arise from<BR>
the same facts as the violation of local law, but would<BR>
almost invariably decline to prosecute unless the accused<BR>
was a threat to the security of the realm.  <BR>
<BR>
A finding of innocence may not let an accused off the hook<BR>
even on the same planet.  Not every world prohibits double<BR>
jeopardy.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:07:07 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav, is how many guns do your characters typically<BR>
>own.  I am especially curious about Eastern US players and<BR>
<BR>
>all you non-America players.  I wonder if local culture<BR>
>effects perceptions on howmany weapons a character need.  <BR>
<BR>
I was born in Boston and lived there until age 10, and<BR>
attended college and law school on the east coast, but have<BR>
otherwise always lived west of the Rockies.  Past<BR>
characters have owned the following weapons, that I can<BR>
recall:<BR>
<BR>
ex-Marine officer:  cutlass, blade, revolver<BR>
ex-Marine commando:  submachine gun, body pistol, auto<BR>
pistol, dagger; he may have owned an autorifle as well<BR>
merchant captain:  submachine gun, body pistol<BR>
ex-scout: auto pistol<BR>
ex-scout: revolver, gauss pistol<BR>
ex-scout: auto pistol<BR>
<BR>
I don't own any firearms, although I do enjoy shooting<BR>
pistol with my brother from time to time (and had a nice<BR>
afternoon shooting with the TML's Alex Ingram in Dallas<BR>
last year).  I own various martial arts weapons and a<BR>
baseball bat.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:09:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: M1<BR>
<BR>
FYI, at STP the sonic crack of a projectile is about 127dB. Indoors the<BR>
sonic crack is not very noticeable, the ballistic wave has little time or<BR>
space to propagate. It IS there, it's just that other things tend to drown<BR>
it out - bullet impacts, action noise, and muzzle signatures all make the<BR>
ballistic crack difficult to discern indoors.<BR>
<BR>
Outdoors it is another matter entirely: If you are shooting in an open area<BR>
with no obstuctions, you won't hear the sonic crack hardly at all. Put<BR>
anything upright in the path of the direction of travel of the projectile,<BR>
and things get real noisy, real quick. Fenceposts, target frames and<BR>
anything else sticking up from the landscape will reflect the sound back<BR>
quite effectively: the characteristic "Ripping" sound is quite noticeable in<BR>
these instances.<BR>
<BR>
With some suppressed weapons using subsonic ammunition, it is possible to<BR>
hear the sound of the projectile as it travels downrange. Suppressor<BR>
performance in these cases is phenomenal. Well over 30dB of sound reduction<BR>
is required to hear a subsonic projectile from the point of view of the<BR>
firer. They make a low hissing sound - exactly like a baseball whizzing away<BR>
from you.<BR>
<BR>
I had a really fun afternoon shooting a Gemtech Quantum (Long version) built<BR>
on a Ruger 77/22 two years ago. With good quality ammunition it could group<BR>
10 shots into a dime-sized hole at 50 meters: The only sound percievable<BR>
from the firer during aimed fire (Head down on the stock) was the sound of<BR>
the striker falling. With standard velocity ammunition, spectators were<BR>
hard-pressed to tell if the weapon was firing live ammunition or dry firing.<BR>
Only the "plonk" of the target being struck gave the game away.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 7:41 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: M1<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On 26 Jun 00, at 13:12, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > IMTU, just about everyone uses hearing protection, or has some hearing<BR>
> > loss.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Makes gauss weapons awfully attractive.<BR>
><BR>
> Near misses from them would probably also cause hearing damage.<BR>
> Remember that the projectile is still supersonic, so it makes that<BR>
> lovely "snap" sound that normal bullets make too. From experience in<BR>
> the butts of rifle ranges that sonic "boom" is _very_ loud and without<BR>
> hearing protection it'd cause damage fairly quickly.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
><BR>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:15:59 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
<BR>
>The side of your shoe, especially hard soled ones, raking <BR>
>down the shin then driving into the instep. <BR>
<BR>
I only own one pair of hard soled shoes, and generally only<BR>
wear them ballroom dancing.  Well, I guess my Red Wing work<BR>
boots count as hard soled -- but I only wear them in the<BR>
woods or very rarely for going out in the city.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:26:01 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 7:56 PM, Glenn Goffin at gmgoffin@yahoo.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Agreed, in general.  The Imperium may reserve the right to<BR>
> prosecute for violations of Imperial law that arise from<BR>
> the same facts as the violation of local law, but would<BR>
> almost invariably decline to prosecute unless the accused<BR>
> was a threat to the security of the realm.<BR>
> <BR>
> A finding of innocence may not let an accused off the hook<BR>
> even on the same planet.  Not every world prohibits double<BR>
> jeopardy.  <BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps Imperial punishments are stiffer in some cases.  The Imperium may<BR>
have reasons for pursuing individuals.  Perhaps the planetary government is<BR>
under the influence or a least tacitly approves of a criminals behavior.<BR>
<BR>
And then there is the issue of criminals fleeing prosecution from one planet<BR>
to another.  Surely there must be some form of extradition?  Or in the case<BR>
of interplanetary crime, there must be some Imperial agency to deal with it.<BR>
IMTU, there are dozens of Imperial agencies with overlapping jurisdictions.<BR>
Turf wars are rife.  In any organization as vast as the Imperium, there is<BR>
going to be all kinds of bureaucratic infighting.  Of course, this is<BR>
preferable to the Confederation.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU the Imperium has an alphabet soup of law enforcement and security<BR>
services:<BR>
<BR>
ISA Imperial Security Agency --(think NSA)<BR>
ISS Imperial Security Service-- (Think CIA --don't get the two mixed up)<BR>
IBI obvious<BR>
IBP Imperial Bureau of Prisons --responsible for Imperial prisoners<BR>
BPE Imperial Bureau of Printing and Engraving--money and other exchangeables<BR>
<BR>
and the list goes on and on.  We haven't even touched on the score of sector<BR>
or subsector ad hoc agencies, or military agencies.  Lots of power, lots or<BR>
rivalry, lots of room for a smart PC to wiggle through.<BR>
<BR>
In the Confederation (IMTU) SolSec<BR>
Instrument of political orthodoxy<BR>
Intelligence service<BR>
counter-intelligence service<BR>
Confederation wide law enforcement<BR>
etc etc etc.<BR>
<BR>
I'm just starting to flesh this out, and waiting for my copy of cats and<BR>
rats and rim of fire to arrive to decide if I even want to try to be cannon.<BR>
See the very beginning of my solsec stuff at http://solsec.org if you are<BR>
interested.  I'm looking for material, and you ideas are most welcome.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Oderint dum metuant" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:20:59 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Battle Dress martial arts<BR>
<BR>
(Working from a CT perspective)<BR>
<BR>
Battle Dress:  TL 13+, provides enhanced senses, doubled strength, and <BR>
effectively unlimited endurance.  Physical enhancement is due to servo-motor<BR>
enhanced limbs.  <BR>
<BR>
Vacc Suit skill allows use of Battle Dress without mishap, but Book 4 <BR>
(Mercenary) introduces Battle Dress skill, noting that there are specialized<BR>
weapons systems designed for use with Battle Dress.  If someone attempts<BR>
to use these weapons without BD skill, they have a high chance of mishap.<BR>
Those with exceptional Vacc Suit skill have reduced chances of mishap,<BR>
but it would require someone with Vacc Suit-4+ to use these weapons with<BR>
the same safety one recieves from Battle Dress-1+.<BR>
<BR>
It strikes me as reasonable to treat Battle Dress' HTH combat enhancements<BR>
as such a specialized BD weapon system.<BR>
<BR>
I think that when someone is wearing Battle Dress, it is reasonable to limit<BR>
their Brawling skill to the lower of Battle Dress and Brawling. If the person<BR>
doesn't have BD skill, then allow them to use Vacc Suit minus some number - <BR>
Vacc Suit minus 2, perhaps?  This may give a good reflection of a person knowing <BR>
how to compensate for (and take advantage of) the increased mass and bulk of <BR>
BD, and the reduced ranges of motion.  <BR>
<BR>
And don't forget the chance of mishaps for untrained users!  <BR>
   Punch a fist into the wrong wall, crumpling something dangerous.<BR>
   Dump yourself headfirst down a lift shaft with an overenthusiastic (and ill-aimed) <BR>
    haymaker punch.<BR>
  Sprain yourself as you attempt a harsh movement that BD joints can't make.<BR>
  Etc,. etc...<BR>
<BR>
If the enhanced sensors give you increased peripheral vision - say 270 degrees <BR>
(or 360 degrees!) via compressing a camera-fed field of view into human field, even <BR>
if only on the periphery of vision - then skill with BD can make you even more<BR>
deadly in HTH combat.  An unskilled wearer would be limited instead - they<BR>
wouldn't know how to properly use the data from the displays, and would thus<BR>
have a sharply limited effective field of view.<BR>
<BR>
Its an interesting idea to give people with high BD skill a bonus in damaging<BR>
enemy Battle Dress suits.  One question is, "How many kinds of suits are there,<BR>
and how many of them have weaknesses in common?"<BR>
<BR>
As for triple back-flip double head-kicks with whp-whup-whup sound effects:<BR>
Grav Belts, TL 12.  Expect as much maneuverability as you'd get in an<BR>
Air/Raft that had a glitchy flight computer.  Activate the exterior PA system on<BR>
the suit, make the sounds yourself...you already look silly, might as well<BR>
sound silly as well.  Or, Robotech and Mekton are just down the hall... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:31:55 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: M1<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 10:09 PM, Matthew W. Helton at mwhelton@cox-internet.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> FYI, at STP the sonic crack of a projectile is about 127dB. Indoors the<BR>
> sonic crack is not very noticeable, the ballistic wave has little time or<BR>
> space to propagate. It IS there, it's just that other things tend to drown<BR>
> it out - bullet impacts, action noise, and muzzle signatures all make the<BR>
> ballistic crack difficult to discern indoors.<BR>
> <BR>
> Outdoors it is another matter entirely: If you are shooting in an open area<BR>
> with no obstuctions, you won't hear the sonic crack hardly at all. Put<BR>
> anything upright in the path of the direction of travel of the projectile,<BR>
> and things get real noisy, real quick. Fenceposts, target frames and<BR>
> anything else sticking up from the landscape will reflect the sound back<BR>
> quite effectively: the characteristic "Ripping" sound is quite noticeable in<BR>
> these instances.<BR>
> <BR>
> With some suppressed weapons using subsonic ammunition, it is possible to<BR>
> hear the sound of the projectile as it travels downrange. Suppressor<BR>
> performance in these cases is phenomenal. Well over 30dB of sound reduction<BR>
> is required to hear a subsonic projectile from the point of view of the<BR>
> firer. They make a low hissing sound - exactly like a baseball whizzing away<BR>
> from you.<BR>
> <BR>
> I had a really fun afternoon shooting a Gemtech Quantum (Long version) built<BR>
> on a Ruger 77/22 two years ago. With good quality ammunition it could group<BR>
> 10 shots into a dime-sized hole at 50 meters: The only sound percievable<BR>
> from the firer during aimed fire (Head down on the stock) was the sound of<BR>
> the striker falling. With standard velocity ammunition, spectators were<BR>
> hard-pressed to tell if the weapon was firing live ammunition or dry firing.<BR>
> Only the "plonk" of the target being struck gave the game away.<BR>
<BR>
Hey Matt,<BR>
<BR>
Where are you located?  We must go shoot the fun toys together.  I have<BR>
access to many title II items.  Tou will appreciate the integrally<BR>
suppressed, select fire 10/22 .  Sadly, my wife's occupation as a federal<BR>
LEO precludes me from owning my own Title II stuff (conflict of interest)<BR>
<BR>
Did you get the material on Teleshot OK?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:41:04 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
On 26 Jun 00, at 16:07, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> What I remember vividly about the M16 is the weird "sproing" noise the<BR>
> recoil spring made every time you fired.  We did manage to get some good<BR>
> flames out of the muzzle, though. When we did night fire, my buddy and I<BR>
> were mag loaders.  We qualified last, and as the army hates to turn in<BR>
> unfired ammo, we shot so many mags of tracer, glowing flecks were coming<BR>
> out the barrel.  Chrome lining no doubt.  God knows how old they were. <BR>
> Mine was marked XM-15 on the receiver IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
If you want "fun" noises from the weapon itself try the Steyr AUG. It's <BR>
hammer mechanism sits right under your ear, so you hear that, then you <BR>
hear the bolt run into the recoil buffer (also under your ear), and <BR>
then all the banging and thumping as the bolt run forward and locks up. <BR>
I strongly recommend hearing protection even when firing blanks with <BR>
these weapons (actually I recommend thorwing them all into the ocean, <BR>
but that's a different matter).<BR>
<BR>
> You can get a pretty good flash from a 16 if you take off the flash<BR>
> suppressor.  Nothing so dramatic as my old .220 swift, though, which was<BR>
> good for at least a foot.<BR>
<BR>
I always found the G3 to be really good, even with the flash <BR>
suppressor. I guess firing 7.62 NATO from an 18" barrel might have <BR>
something to do with it :)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:41:53 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: M1<BR>
<BR>
On 26 Jun 00, at 16:48, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > >IMTU, just about everyone uses hearing protection, or has<BR>
> > >some hearing loss.<BR>
> > >Makes gauss weapons awfully attractive.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > What about the sonic booms of the gauss weapons'<BR>
> > hypervelocity rounds?<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> Having fired a silenced 7.62x51mm, I can tell you that ballistic crack is<BR>
> nothing like muzzle blast.  Certainly nothing that required hearing<BR>
> protection.  Of course this was out doors. I can't say what it would be<BR>
> like inside.<BR>
<BR>
Was this from behind the weapon, or down-range? IME down-range the <BR>
sonic crack is quite spectacular.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:41:24 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
At 2:25 PM -0700 6/26/00, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
><BR>
>>>Well, since Marc doesn't post here, I guess I'd consider you the closest<BR>
>>>thing to "keeper of the faith", although since you've gone over to GURPS,<BR>
>>>some might say you are THE heretic.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Marc *does* post here, you may not have recognised the address, but<BR>
>>there have been at least two in the last couple of weeks.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Dom, isn't Marc using CardShark@ something for his email addy?<BR>
<BR>
CardSharsk@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
I can understand why you might have blocked out the latter part<BR>
of his email address.  :)<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure what that has to do with Traveller, though.  :)<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:46:55 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
At 3:14 PM -0800 6/26/00, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>  Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:<BR>
>>>  > (And, just like religion, this can be a touchy subject ... so<BR>
>>>  > I'm off to put on some asbestos underwear.)<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>  Please, use Nomex instead. We wouldn't want you getting cancer<BR>
>>>  of anything important. :-)<BR>
>><BR>
>>  Good to  know  ...  I  thought  the  problem  with  asbestos  was<BR>
>>  particles getting into the  lungs.  But  I  didn't  know  it  was<BR>
>>  *generally* carcinogenic.<BR>
><BR>
>I seem to recall that it's not the best thing to get worked into the<BR>
>skin either. In any case, the folks removing in wear disposable<BR>
>*suits*, taped to prevent anything getting inside, *as well as*<BR>
>respirators.<BR>
<BR>
Ironically, when the inhabitants move back in after an asbestos<BR>
removal, they don't wear the suits even though the removal leaves<BR>
a much higher of asbestos in the air than before it was removed,<BR>
even when the removers are very careful.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2666<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 27 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2667<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
Re: M1<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: M1<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: What is canon<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
Next San Jose Traveller Meet = 29 July<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
On Killing, etc (was RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2644)<BR>
RE: Next San Jose Traveller Meet = 29 July<BR>
RE: What is canon<BR>
RE: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:18:33 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Tod asked:<BR>
>So the next question, ObTrav, is how many guns do your characters typically<BR>
>own.  I am especially curious about Eastern US players and all you<BR>
>non-America players.<BR>
<BR>
As many as they can carry. And as allowed by Law Level. Usually.<BR>
<BR>
>One of my players accumulated enough weapons to arms a small mercenary unit...<BR>
<BR>
Our PC's ARE a small mercenary unit.<BR>
<BR>
Having zapped a Zho Cruiser at Efate (damn that teleporting Droyne and his<BR>
nukes!) they're currently after the thieves who stole the Ottem. The thieves<BR>
appear to be Zho commandos (!), currently running away in a captured<BR>
Chrysthanenum-class Destroyer Escort (merely 1000t). Towards the Sword Worlds<BR>
invasion fleet at Tavonni, BTW. Couldn't be more than 100 ships in that fleet,<BR>
surely.  ;-)  Since the PCs are pursuing in their stealth 400t Intruder Scout,<BR>
there is of course no cause for alarm. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
(Actually, the PCs dislike open combat, preferring to sneak around via Ervmisbe,<BR>
the teleporting Droyne. He is usually equipped with one of their (Adv 3)<BR>
"stepping disks"... everyone yell "SURPRISE!")<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:34:43 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: M1<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 8:41 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Having fired a silenced 7.62x51mm, I can tell you that ballistic crack is<BR>
>> nothing like muzzle blast.  Certainly nothing that required hearing<BR>
>> protection.  Of course this was out doors. I can't say what it would be<BR>
>> like inside.<BR>
> <BR>
> Was this from behind the weapon, or down-range? IME down-range the<BR>
> sonic crack is quite spectacular.<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> <BR>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I was the shooter.<BR>
<BR>
tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:10:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
><BR>
>>The rule of thumb I use is<BR>
>>a) Hit the soft parts of the body with a fist<BR>
>>b) Hit the hard parts of the body with the palm or palm<BR>
>>edge<BR>
><BR>
> I would add to b): "or your shod foot, if practical".  Dr.<BR>
> Marten's steel toe applied to the shin bone should pretty<BR>
> well stop the fight.  <BR>
<BR>
I'd say! I once slipped on some ice during a winter hike, and managed<BR>
to bash my shin on a rock. Nowhere near as hard as a good kick. I<BR>
didn't break anything, but I've still got the scar. And I sure as heck<BR>
couldn't *walk* for several minutes. <BR>
<BR>
So it'd be a good thing to put an attacker down while you beat feet out<BR>
of their!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:18:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> I'd love to see their reaction to my late friend the gunsmith's house<BR>
>> back when he was still alive. A dozen rifles leaning against the wall<BR>
>> in the hallway, another dozen or so guns (mostly handguns) scattered<BR>
>> around the living room & dining room. And then there was the basement....<BR>
>><BR>
>> And all these would just be the *visible* guns. And I've not mentioned<BR>
>> all the swords and knives...<BR>
>><BR>
>> He was obviously a player character.:-)<BR>
><BR>
> You'd love to see my buddy Bob's place.  He is a Title II (class 3)<BR>
> manufacturer down in Salem.  As you say, guns in every room in the house.<BR>
> Rifles, pistols, shotguns and machineguns in every nook and cranny.  I<BR>
> particularly liked the 40mm ammo can full of single action Colts, each<BR>
> protected by an old sock. 30 or 40 in that one can alone.  Something like<BR>
> the bar basement in "Uncommon Valor".<BR>
><BR>
> Having 2 small children, I have to keep all my guns in a safe.  And the<BR>
> darned thing is just too small!  although this has lead to our in house<BR>
> definition of a lot of guns.  A lot of guns is when you're not really sure<BR>
> how many guns you've got.<BR>
<BR>
Well, he didn't have any kids, and his wife's kids lived with her<BR>
exhusband. But they were old enough to be taught about gun safety for<BR>
when they visited. <BR>
<BR>
I recall watching an 8 year old scold his father for not checking to be<BR>
sure a gun was unloaded. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> So the next question, ObTrav, is how many guns do your characters typically<BR>
> own.  I am especially curious about Eastern US players and all you<BR>
> non-America players.  I wonder if local culture effects perceptions on how<BR>
> many weapons a character need.  Do British or eastern US players feel that<BR>
> their characters are adequately armed with a few small arms?  My players are<BR>
> all western type barrel-suckers (gun enthusiasts).  If their characters use<BR>
> guns, then they tend to have a lot. One of my players accumulated enough<BR>
> weapons to arms a small mercenary unit, and lived in a warehouse, vault so<BR>
> he could store them all.<BR>
<BR>
I might pick up a few more. But a good chunk of my "arsenal" is<BR>
unintentional aquisitions. <BR>
<BR>
I figure the .22 rifle will do for plinking (and maybe going after some<BR>
squirrels). The SKS will do for both hunting and "social purposes". I'm<BR>
thinking about a .22 pistol. <BR>
<BR>
The air rifles are just for plinking.<BR>
<BR>
I think the easterners might be shocked by my ammo though. I bought a<BR>
*case* of SKS ammo...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:28:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Jeff Zeitlin wrote,<BR>
>>Let me tell you - Sam is in one of the _better_ areas of the<BR>
> Bronx.  I work for the NYPD in the Bronx, in the 46 Precinct<BR>
> (West Tremont, Morris Heights, University Heights), and we've<BR>
> arrested cockroaches (and confiscated their guns) for assault<BR>
> here.<<BR>
><BR>
> You don't know some of the rats I see coming off the River. (I'm in Co-op<BR>
> City myself.)<BR>
> Size of small dogs some of them.<BR>
> But yeah, I know your side too.<BR>
<BR>
I've seen a few large rats myself. You see, I used to have to walk home<BR>
late at night past the grain loading docks on the river. Lots of *big*<BR>
rats there. You mind your own business and don't crowd them, and<BR>
they'll not bother you.<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote,<BR>
>>I want to see a gun designed for use *by* cockroaches. :-)<<BR>
><BR>
> Dude, the mothers around here use regular gun. And they get real trigger<BR>
> happy when some fool tries breaking out some Raid on them.<BR>
<BR>
If they're *that* big, I'll use a shotgun, thank you very much. Or<BR>
maybe the SKS with some of the Russian steel-core ammo. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:31:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: M1<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>>IMTU, just about everyone uses hearing protection, or has <BR>
>>some hearing loss.<BR>
>>Makes gauss weapons awfully attractive.<BR>
><BR>
> What about the sonic booms of the gauss weapons'<BR>
> hypervelocity rounds?  <BR>
<BR>
That's the same as the "crack" of a round going by. *Much* quieter than<BR>
the muzzle blast of a firearm.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, my .22 is quiet enough that you can hear the crack of the rounds.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:41:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod replied to Leonard:<BR>
>>> BTW, my lease says this building is Law Level F or so (no weapons<BR>
>>> allowed on premises) so my guns live with a friend. <sigh><BR>
>><BR>
>>Well, there's something just wrong about that.<BR>
><BR>
> I find it more wrong that you live somewhere where you actually need to be <BR>
> that concerned about personal safety.<BR>
><BR>
> (BTW, this is NOT a comment about whether guns themselves are bad or not, I <BR>
> just really feel sad that you have to live in such an unsafe environment).<BR>
<BR>
It's not bad here. I rarely hear shots. <BR>
<BR>
The place I lived before I'd hear them several times a night on Friday<BR>
and Saturday. And this was only 4 blocks from a police station!<BR>
<BR>
I'm not worried, but I am "prudent". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:45:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
><BR>
>>Cool idea, though, a doubtless the inspiration for the <BR>
>>accelerator rifle.<BR>
>>As I recall, Niven and Pournelle were quite taken with the<BR>
><BR>
>>idea.<BR>
><BR>
> Gordon Dickson, in Tactics of Mistake (another must-read<BR>
> for anyone running a military campaign), has the cone<BR>
> rifle, which is basically an accelerator rifle.  It's not<BR>
> as cool as (but more practical than) the dallygun, or<BR>
> dial-a-gun, which has different ammo loads that you can<BR>
> dial up. (I think the dallygun is somewhere else in the<BR>
> Dorsai books, but can't remember which one.)<BR>
<BR>
It's in Tactics of Mistake also.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:47:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> With regard to the air gun mentioned above.  Most people are unaware<BR>
>> of their potential.  The Austrian army deployed a big bore air gun<BR>
>> (.69 cal IIRC) during the Napoleonic wars.  It was rifles and held<BR>
>> 15 rounds of lead ball.  I could be fire a quickly as an manually<BR>
>> operated rifle of today, and could kill a man at 150 yards.<BR>
>> Compared with the muskets in common use, it was phenomenally<BR>
>> advanced and lethal (and expensive to produce).<BR>
><BR>
> IIRC the other side regarded these as "too lethal" and tended to execute <BR>
> anyone found with one...C17 WoMD anyone?<BR>
<BR>
Also the air reservior was this *huge* spherical tank just in front of<BR>
the trigger assembly, and if it got struck by a bullet... Well, that<BR>
was the end of the rifle *and* rifleman!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:09:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 3:14 PM -0800 6/26/00, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>  Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:<BR>
>>>>  > (And, just like religion, this can be a touchy subject ... so<BR>
>>>>  > I'm off to put on some asbestos underwear.)<BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>>  Please, use Nomex instead. We wouldn't want you getting cancer<BR>
>>>>  of anything important. :-)<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>  Good to  know  ...  I  thought  the  problem  with  asbestos  was<BR>
>>>  particles getting into the  lungs.  But  I  didn't  know  it  was<BR>
>>>  *generally* carcinogenic.<BR>
>><BR>
>>I seem to recall that it's not the best thing to get worked into the<BR>
>>skin either. In any case, the folks removing in wear disposable<BR>
>>*suits*, taped to prevent anything getting inside, *as well as*<BR>
>>respirators.<BR>
><BR>
> Ironically, when the inhabitants move back in after an asbestos<BR>
> removal, they don't wear the suits even though the removal leaves<BR>
> a much higher of asbestos in the air than before it was removed,<BR>
> even when the removers are very careful.<BR>
<BR>
Which is why they only *require* removal if you are renovated that<BR>
structure or doing other construction, in which case by the time the<BR>
construction is done, things will be much lower.<BR>
<BR>
Schools, offices, etc are a different matter.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:11:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 2:25 PM -0700 6/26/00, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
>>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
>><BR>
>>>>Well, since Marc doesn't post here, I guess I'd consider you the closest<BR>
>>>>thing to "keeper of the faith", although since you've gone over to<BR>
GURPS,<BR>
>>>>some might say you are THE heretic.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>Marc *does* post here, you may not have recognised the address, but<BR>
>>>there have been at least two in the last couple of weeks.<BR>
<BR>
>>     Dom, isn't Marc using CardShark@ something for his email addy?<BR>
<BR>
>I can understand why you might have blocked out the latter part<BR>
>of his email address.  :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Well, he does deserve his privacy.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm not sure what that has to do with Traveller, though.  :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    He created Traveller, therefore we have a right to comment upon his<BR>
personal life.  *weg*  Just kidding.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:52:09 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > What I remember vividly about the M16 is the weird "sproing" noise the<BR>
> > recoil spring made every time you fired.  We did manage to get some good<BR>
...<BR>
> > Mine was marked XM-15 on the receiver IIRC.<BR>
> <BR>
> If you want "fun" noises from the weapon itself try the Steyr AUG. It's<BR>
> hammer mechanism sits right under your ear, so you hear that, then you<BR>
<BR>
I suspect in both cases it is the age of the rifle that adds to the<BR>
noises.  I've fired both and didn't notice any excessive noise in the<BR>
Steyr but it wasn't worn out by thousands of rounds.  I've fired new and<BR>
old M-16's and the old ones really make that "sproing" noise (especially<BR>
an XM-15).<BR>
<BR>
Rupert:  Why did you think the Steyr AUG was so bad?<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:54:16 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Next San Jose Traveller Meet = 29 July<BR>
<BR>
Hi All,<BR>
<BR>
In case anyone in the area can make it:<BR>
<BR>
The next meet will be 29 July.  This will give plenty of time to get<BR>
miniatures ready.<BR>
<BR>
Day Game:  Striker<BR>
<BR>
Evening: Barbeque, Roborally, Traveller and Monster Vision.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:51:43 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 10:47 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Also the air reservior was this *huge* spherical tank just in front of<BR>
> the trigger assembly, and if it got struck by a bullet... Well, that<BR>
> was the end of the rifle *and* rifleman!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Leonard, I don't want you to think I' picking on you, but...<BR>
<BR>
The Austrian M. 1799 Repetier Wind-Busch (Sistem Girardoni) used a butt<BR>
resevoir.  Normally, the butt flask was pumped up to about 400 ft-lbs, good<BR>
for 40 shots, but usually replaced after 20 because of the pressure fallout.<BR>
It took about 2000 stroke to fill a resevoir, so wagon mounted, water-cooled<BR>
pumps were usually employed.  Air Gunners typically carried 2-4 flasks into<BR>
battle.<BR>
<BR>
The weapon was designed by a C.G. Girardoni, and built in great secrecy by<BR>
Contriner and other well known Austrian gunsmiths.<BR>
<BR>
As this is one of my all time favorite weapons, lave posted a GIF image of<BR>
one for you viewing pleasure.<BR>
<BR>
See http://www.guntech.com/media/austrain_airgun.gif<BR>
<BR>
Share and enjoy<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Gum Brain" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:01:41 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
On 26 Jun 00, at 19:51, David P. Summers wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The problem is that if we can survive on Vland (even with<BR>
> food processing) then so can our bacteria (by definition<BR>
> there must by amino acids and oxygen, that alone is enough).<BR>
> Also, even if the Ancients sterilized the import humans<BR>
> (which isn't unreasonable), if we can survive on Vland<BR>
> (ie there are amino acids around for us to eat and oxygen to<BR>
> breath) then there will be bacteria to Vland that can infect us.<BR>
<BR>
Its all a question of numbers. Your quite correct when you say there will be <BR>
some bacteria on Vland that will be able to or evolve the abiltiy to infest <BR>
humans. However this number will be a tiny and for all practical purposes <BR>
they can be ignored. Also, it should be remembered that the immunio-<BR>
response system is a rather expensive adaptation in evolutionary terms <BR>
and if its not needed it will weaken (individuals with naturally weak immune <BR>
systems have a far greater chance of passing on their genes of Vland than <BR>
on Terra).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:15:13 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 10:52 PM, Kristian Miller at travellerne@3rd-imperium.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> I suspect in both cases it is the age of the rifle that adds to the<BR>
> noises.  I've fired both and didn't notice any excessive noise in the<BR>
> Steyr but it wasn't worn out by thousands of rounds.  I've fired new and<BR>
> old M-16's and the old ones really make that "sproing" noise (especially<BR>
> an XM-15).<BR>
> <BR>
> Rupert:  Why did you think the Steyr AUG was so bad?<BR>
> <BR>
> Kristian<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Well, I have two relatively new AR-15s, and they both make the "sproing"<BR>
despite having has less that 10,000 round fired through them. I've noticed<BR>
that weird noise in every M-16 variant I've ever fired.  Some are louder<BR>
that others, but they all have it.  I suppose it from having the buffer<BR>
spring run out right next to your ear.<BR>
<BR>
Every weapons has it's little eccentricities.  My STG-58 is the most polite<BR>
autoloader I've ever owned.  No matter what loads I shoot in it, it always<BR>
leave a neat little pile of brass just right and forward of my right toe.<BR>
<BR>
My MAADI AKM, by contrast, likes to throw brass every which way and at least<BR>
20 feet.  This is still preferable to HK rifles, who's ejected brass can be<BR>
down right dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
Other examples:<BR>
<BR>
My Accuracy International Tactical rifle makes a "thumming" noise when<BR>
fires.  Barrel vibration I suppose.  It doesn't effect accuracy at all, as<BR>
the rifle shoots sub MOA.  And my .458 win mag would always eject the 1st<BR>
and third round cleanly, but the second empty almost always flipped up and<BR>
back into the receiver with the brass pointing backwards (somewhat<BR>
distressing in a dangerous game rifle).  Three expensive extractors and<BR>
three different gunsmiths and it still did the same thing.  I bought a<BR>
military surplus extractor at a gun show for $5.00, recut the face, and the<BR>
problem was solved.<BR>
<BR>
I'll have to go back to my trav gun website and add a section on<BR>
idiosycracies. Can anyone think of any others?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:17:55 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 10:51 PM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/26/00 10:47 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>>> Also the air reservior was this *huge* spherical tank just in front of<BR>
>> the trigger assembly, and if it got struck by a bullet... Well, that<BR>
>> was the end of the rifle *and* rifleman!<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Leonard, I don't want you to think I' picking on you, but...<BR>
> <BR>
> The Austrian M. 1799 Repetier Wind-Busch (Sistem Girardoni) used a butt<BR>
> resevoir.  Normally, the butt flask was pumped up to about 400 ft-lbs, good<BR>
> for 40 shots, but usually replaced after 20 because of the pressure fallout.<BR>
> It took about 2000 stroke to fill a resevoir, so wagon mounted, water-cooled<BR>
> pumps were usually employed.  Air Gunners typically carried 2-4 flasks into<BR>
> battle.<BR>
> <BR>
> The weapon was designed by a C.G. Girardoni, and built in great secrecy by<BR>
> Contriner and other well known Austrian gunsmiths.<BR>
> <BR>
> As this is one of my all time favorite weapons, lave posted a GIF image of<BR>
> one for you viewing pleasure.<BR>
> <BR>
> See http://www.guntech.com/media/austrain_airgun.gif<BR>
> <BR>
> Share and enjoy<BR>
> <BR>
> Tod "Gum Brain" Glenn<BR>
> --<BR>
> "Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
> killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
<BR>
Correction on the URL:<BR>
<BR>
try  http://www.guntech.com/media/austrian_airgun.gif<BR>
<BR>
Tod "getting punchy" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:34:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: On Killing, etc (was RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2644)<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>What bothers me isn't so much Colonel Grossman's "agenda", but what it is<BR>
>that he tends to leave out. I have not read "On Killing", but I'm familiar<BR>
>with Grossman's use, in various articles I've read, of the statistics<BR>
>Marshall compiled for his book "Men Against Fire". I'm also familiar with<BR>
>Marshall's book. I have yet to see an article by Grossman which doesn't<BR>
>oversimplify what Marshall was trying to say in support of his own<BR>
>universal-innate-human-aversion-to-killing theory.<BR>
<BR>
Having recently read an interesting book, <em>The Ant and the Peacock</em>,<BR>
a book about evolutionary biology, I have the following comment on this<BR>
thread.<BR>
<BR>
Biologists call behavior which is viable in the long run an "evolutionarily<BR>
stable strategy," or ESS. One clearly necessary condition for an ESS is that<BR>
the strategy performs well against *itself*. You can make this statement<BR>
rigorous by using the branch of mathematics called game theory if you really<BR>
want to.<BR>
<BR>
It seems to me that the Marshall's<BR>
"universal-innate-human-aversion-to-killing" is an example of an ESS, while<BR>
the opposite is an unstable strategy, and thus would not survive anything<BR>
past the short term. Because it is extremely likely that humans have evolved<BR>
behavior which is an ESS, we probably have some innate aversion to killing<BR>
each other.<BR>
<BR>
Attempting to apply the ESS concept in the Traveller universe, we may get<BR>
some interesting consequences. I am no expert on the Aslan and Vargr<BR>
cultures, for example, but for these cultures to have survived any length of<BR>
time, they too must have followed an ESS.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 23:40:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Next San Jose Traveller Meet = 29 July<BR>
<BR>
To celebrate the our first Striker game, I picked up a case of LEGO<BR>
spaceship models, so the lucky first 12 players to show up in July will get<BR>
one to take home with them. They are probably the wrong scale to go with the<BR>
other miniatures, but that sort of thing has never worried me. (Yes, they<BR>
are small ones.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:09:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
I always thought canon was a more advanced type of carronade, or possible a<BR>
culverin?<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:09:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Monday, 26 June 2000 3:40 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> >> Actually, no.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> A fire, especially a *metal* fire being fed by an oxygen jet looks more<BR>
> >> like a magnesium flare than like any "normal" sort of fire. Watch<BR>
> >> someone using a cutting torch sometime. That's how such devices work,<BR>
> >> they use a regular oxy-acetylene flame to get the metal hot enough to<BR>
> >> ignite, then you hit the "trigger" and feed it a jet of pure oxygen.<BR>
> >> The jet *burns* the metal out of the way.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Blinding white light, and if the metal is iron or steel, *huge* numbers<BR>
> >> of sparks.<BR>
> >><BR>
> > Well I don't know, a flare coming out of a ship should show up nicely on<BR>
> > sensors result "Target that explosion".<BR>
><BR>
> Do recall the ranges involved. You *can't* target that precisely due to<BR>
> speed of light lag.<BR>
><BR>
> At least not unless the ship is unable to accelerate. In which case<BR>
> it's pretty much "dead meat" anyway.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
> Well the recent line on PD weapons implies the weapons are that accurate,<BR>
being able to hit hundreds of missiles at multi thousand k ranges. Not IMTU<BR>
however. So there goes the hollywood combat scenes!<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2667<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2668</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 27 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2668<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Bio-Opportunity Was Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
RE: What is canon<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: IHTFP<BR>
Medical query<BR>
Re: What is canon<BR>
[Rant] Why the Steyr AUG is bad (Hollywood Guns)<BR>
RE: Battle Dress and Martial Arts (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
RE: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
Re: Medical query<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
RE: Battle Dress martial arts<BR>
RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
RE: rats<BR>
risk perception<BR>
Re: Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
RE: On Killing, etc<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:09:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: Bio-Opportunity Was Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
<BR>
One does not have far to look very far on Earth to find organisms which have<BR>
taken the opportunities given them. A case in point is Feline Coronavirus, a<BR>
virus with a high replication error (mutation rate) one of which is the<BR>
fatal Feline Infectious Peritonitis. Doing some research on this virus I<BR>
traced it back to chickens at the turn of the century. Viruses of this<BR>
family are found in chickens, cats, dogs, horses, cattle and pigs, oh yes<BR>
and humans, and also animals directly related to domestic species. This<BR>
struck me as most interesting. Notice the apparent connection?<BR>
<BR>
How about this chicken albumen was used as a base in early immunisations of<BR>
both humans and domestic animals. Equine and bovine products are used in<BR>
modern immunisations. No screening for coronavirus is done. Suppose material<BR>
taken from a coronavirus positive animal is then injected into a clear<BR>
animal. With the mutation rate of this organism?<BR>
<BR>
In humans I discovered there are two recognised forms, one produces Flu like<BR>
symptoms, the other acute personality changes.<BR>
<BR>
I can see many applications in Traveller for bioweapons derived from this or<BR>
similar organisms. But watch out if the organism is too adaptable.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:47:07 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
Antony Farrell wrote:<BR>
> I always thought canon was a more advanced type of carronade, <BR>
> or possible a culverin?<BR>
<BR>
Ah, I was wondering how long it would be before someone succumbed<BR>
to making this joke.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:46:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/26/00 10:47 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>> Also the air reservior was this *huge* spherical tank just in front of<BR>
>> the trigger assembly, and if it got struck by a bullet... Well, that<BR>
>> was the end of the rifle *and* rifleman!<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard, I don't want you to think I' picking on you, but...<BR>
><BR>
> The Austrian M. 1799 Repetier Wind-Busch (Sistem Girardoni) used a butt<BR>
> resevoir.  Normally, the butt flask was pumped up to about 400 ft-lbs, good<BR>
> for 40 shots, but usually replaced after 20 because of the pressure fallout.<BR>
> It took about 2000 stroke to fill a resevoir, so wagon mounted, water-cooled<BR>
> pumps were usually employed.  Air Gunners typically carried 2-4 flasks into<BR>
> battle.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, I was going by a period illustration that showed an air rifle with<BR>
the sort of reservior I described. I guess there must have been more<BR>
than one type running around or something.<BR>
<BR>
> See http://www.guntech.com/media/austrain_airgun.gif<BR>
<BR>
I can only browse with Lynx currently, so unless you've taken extra<BR>
pains, at most I'll see the tag, but not be able to highlight it (if I<BR>
can highlight a link, I can download it). <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:41:17 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: IHTFP<BR>
<BR>
> Which brings up the question of prior service representation on the TML and<BR>
>  Traveller in general.  What's the ratio of Army, Marine and other services<BR>
>  on the TML.  How about the creators prior service, if any (Marc, Loren <BR>
etc).<BR>
>  Inquiring minds want to know.<BR>
<BR>
Marc had an ADA platoon in Vietnam, and retired as a captain . . . or major, <BR>
I'm not sure. Rich Banner was a sgt in Korea with an MOS that kept him out of <BR>
Vietnam. Frank and I were never in (although I have been shot at -- does that <BR>
count?).<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:41:46 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Medical query<BR>
<BR>
I have a question for Robert O'Connor, TML's resident medico:<BR>
<BR>
What exactly is a "punctured eardrum" and why does it make one unfit for <BR>
military service? One reason I have heard advanced is that it makes a gas <BR>
mask useless, but I find this sets off my built-in doubt alarm.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:22:31 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
I'd been resisting the temptation all week..:)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 5:47 AM<BR>
Subject: RE: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Antony Farrell wrote:<BR>
> > I always thought canon was a more advanced type of carronade, <BR>
> > or possible a culverin?<BR>
> <BR>
> Ah, I was wondering how long it would be before someone succumbed<BR>
> to making this joke.<BR>
> <BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 01:14:30 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: [Rant] Why the Steyr AUG is bad (Hollywood Guns)<BR>
<BR>
On 26 Jun 00, at 23:15, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/26/00 10:52 PM, Kristian Miller at travellerne@3rd-imperium.com<BR>
> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > <BR>
> > I suspect in both cases it is the age of the rifle that adds to the<BR>
> > noises.  I've fired both and didn't notice any excessive noise in the<BR>
> > Steyr but it wasn't worn out by thousands of rounds.  I've fired new and<BR>
> > old M-16's and the old ones really make that "sproing" noise (especially<BR>
> > an XM-15).<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Rupert:  Why did you think the Steyr AUG was so bad?<BR>
 <BR>
Where to start. OK, they're more sensitive to having too much or too <BR>
little oil applied to the bolt system than an M16 (and don't listen to <BR>
those that tell you the teflon coating on the bolt mean no oil - there <BR>
won't be any teflon after the first time sand gets in there). <BR>
<BR>
They are more likely to cease up if they get damp and then exposed to <BR>
sub-zero temperatures (so if you have you rifle in your tent/under your <BR>
shelter half overnight and it's cold you'll have to clean it before you <BR>
can fire it - not good if the bad guys stage a dawn assault).<BR>
<BR>
The 1.5x optic sight gives very nice results on the range, but once <BR>
you've got a bit of dust on the lenses accuracy goes to hell if its <BR>
wet, or the sun's at the wrong angle, and they don't gather enough <BR>
light to be useful except in good light (the M16's apature sight is <BR>
actually better). The sight is also set very high off both the bore-<BR>
line, and the top of the stock, so you have to hold your head up off <BR>
the stock, giving little support (and my case case, as I have a short <BR>
neck, making quick sight/target aquisition difficult).<BR>
<BR>
The bull-pup design means that while a weapon can be rigged for left or <BR>
right handed shooting it has to be stripped to change over, so it your <BR>
weapon croaks you'd better hope any spares are of the right handedness. <BR>
Some say that the bull-pup configuration also makes hip-fire messy <BR>
(which it does), and this is bad, but I disagree, as hip-fire is a <BR>
waste of time, and shouldn't be used, anyway. However it does have <BR>
other problems, such as slower magazine change (not helped in the AUG <BR>
by it not having the bolt held back on an empty magazine) and more <BR>
apparent recoil (the butt heavy nature means a lot more muzzle jump on <BR>
firing).<BR>
<BR>
The fore-end being that pistol-grip thing limits the choices of grip <BR>
that are workable, and the magazine pokes down a long way (worse than <BR>
the M16s 30-round magazines) so prone shooting is harder.<BR>
<BR>
The trigger is plastic, as is its housing, so once sand gets in the <BR>
trigger pull (which is a long single stage, and thus crappy anyway) <BR>
becomes vile. In fact the whole darn weapon is sand sensitive because <BR>
of plastic of various sorts being used here and for the hammer <BR>
mechanism (which isn't field maintainable except by spraying heaps or <BR>
CRC/WD40 through it) so it tended to become gritty very quickly.<BR>
<BR>
The saftey has sharp edges and sits right by your trigger finger, so if <BR>
you're runnning round lots it's going to cut you at some point, and in <BR>
the bush that's just asking for an infection. And it can easyily get <BR>
bumped so it's off when you thought it was on, and vice versa. Not <BR>
good.<BR>
<BR>
All in all, IMO, the darn things are a heap of shite, and the Aussie <BR>
made ones even more so (my unit was lucky enough to get the Austrian <BR>
made ones that the NZ Army got for field trials). At least the Austrian <BR>
ones didn't actually break very often. A good freind of mine became an <BR>
Air Force armourer, and while giving a lecture on the SUG one of their <BR>
Sergeants dropped an Aussie made AUG (new) on the floor, whereupon the <BR>
stock broke in half.<BR>
<BR>
Now you know.<BR>
<BR>
> Well, I have two relatively new AR-15s, and they both make the "sproing"<BR>
> despite having has less that 10,000 round fired through them. I've noticed<BR>
> that weird noise in every M-16 variant I've ever fired.  Some are louder<BR>
> that others, but they all have it.  I suppose it from having the buffer<BR>
> spring run out right next to your ear.<BR>
<BR>
I'd guess so, too. BTW the noisiest M16A1 (NZ only ever used the A1s) I <BR>
ever fired was new (as in hadn't been used before, though I think it <BR>
was made back in the 70s), and the quietest was the one I had in basic, <BR>
which was ancient and very worn - the barrel's rifling was almost <BR>
invisible under the scratches from bore brushes and once the pin in the <BR>
bolt assembly was removed you could strip the bolt carrier right down <BR>
with a few deft flicks of the wrist. Despite this it was actually very <BR>
accurate and worked like a dream.<BR>
<BR>
> Every weapons has it's little eccentricities.  My STG-58 is the most<BR>
> polite autoloader I've ever owned.  No matter what loads I shoot in it, it<BR>
> always leave a neat little pile of brass just right and forward of my<BR>
> right toe.<BR>
> <BR>
> My MAADI AKM, by contrast, likes to throw brass every which way and at<BR>
> least 20 feet.  This is still preferable to HK rifles, who's ejected brass<BR>
> can be down right dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
Indeed. My father had a semi-auto only HK G3 and boy did it throw the <BR>
cases around. My Chinese SKS used to do this too, but at least it <BR>
always biffed them forwards.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 06:20:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Battle Dress and Martial Arts (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
I agree on one point, and disagree on another.<BR>
<BR>
1) I would _not_ hit a person in battle dress with a limb. (or even a big<BR>
stick)<BR>
<BR>
2) I would not throw him.. I would RLH or put my hands into the air and<BR>
assume the position. (unless I was also in battle dress - then I would hit<BR>
him with a big stick)<BR>
<BR>
Hmm.. A new sport: BDBoxing 2 teams of 2 battledress outfitted contestants,<BR>
1 large warehouse, an assortment of large sticks, rocks, and pointy things.<BR>
;><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>A lot of people disagree with this, but most basic "blocks"  can set people<BR>
>up for strikes to vulnerable areas - like under the armpit.<BR>
>As for battle dress, I wouldn't strike - wou'd break whatever unclad body<BR>
>part you were striking with. I do a throw and then jump on the guys back as<BR>
>the wiggle in the mud, doing my best to scrag various vents or exposed<BR>
>wires.<BR>
>Now if you mean battle dress to battle dress unarmed combat...that would be<BR>
>weird, but possible. I think.<BR>
>Hmmm....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 06:23:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm..<BR>
<BR>
Depends on the group - I have had groups that never owned more then a 9mm<BR>
autopistol, but the most memorable group had 'Groove' a BD clad marine with<BR>
an 20mm RAM AutoGL. He accually had a clip of nukes for it (hard times<BR>
campain).<BR>
<BR>
One adventure with another group of overarmed fools, their patron _made_<BR>
them only take body pistols on a job.... hehehe.. they really felt naked.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 9:19 PM<BR>
To: traveller@mpgn.com<BR>
Subject: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Tod asked:<BR>
>So the next question, ObTrav, is how many guns do your characters typically<BR>
>own.  I am especially curious about Eastern US players and all you<BR>
>non-America players.<BR>
<BR>
As many as they can carry. And as allowed by Law Level. Usually.<BR>
<BR>
>One of my players accumulated enough weapons to arms a small mercenary<BR>
unit...<BR>
<BR>
Our PC's ARE a small mercenary unit.<BR>
<BR>
Having zapped a Zho Cruiser at Efate (damn that teleporting Droyne and his<BR>
nukes!) they're currently after the thieves who stole the Ottem. The thieves<BR>
appear to be Zho commandos (!), currently running away in a captured<BR>
Chrysthanenum-class Destroyer Escort (merely 1000t). Towards the Sword<BR>
Worlds<BR>
invasion fleet at Tavonni, BTW. Couldn't be more than 100 ships in that<BR>
fleet,<BR>
surely.  ;-)  Since the PCs are pursuing in their stealth 400t Intruder<BR>
Scout,<BR>
there is of course no cause for alarm. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
(Actually, the PCs dislike open combat, preferring to sneak around via<BR>
Ervmisbe,<BR>
the teleporting Droyne. He is usually equipped with one of their (Adv 3)<BR>
"stepping disks"... everyone yell "SURPRISE!")<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 01:24:12 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
On 26 Jun 00, at 17:25, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Having 2 small children, I have to keep all my guns in a safe.  And the<BR>
> darned thing is just too small!  although this has lead to our in house<BR>
> definition of a lot of guns.  A lot of guns is when you're not really sure<BR>
> how many guns you've got.<BR>
<BR>
Well I guess I grew up in a house with lots o' guns, then.<BR>
<BR>
> So the next question, ObTrav, is how many guns do your characters<BR>
> typically own.  I am especially curious about Eastern US players and all<BR>
> you non-America players.  I wonder if local culture effects perceptions on<BR>
> how many weapons a character need.  Do British or eastern US players feel<BR>
> that their characters are adequately armed with a few small arms?  My<BR>
> players are all western type barrel-suckers (gun enthusiasts).  If their<BR>
> characters use guns, then they tend to have a lot. One of my players<BR>
> accumulated enough weapons to arms a small mercenary unit, and lived in a<BR>
> warehouse, vault so he could store them all.<BR>
<BR>
For my characters it varies a fair bit. Usually the military types own <BR>
about hlaf a dozen small arms and carry 2-4, depending on circumstance. <BR>
My favourite had and (when she could get away with it) carried only <BR>
three - a holdout pistol (COP .357 equivilent), her favourite magnum <BR>
semi-auto and a replica PPsh-41 sub-machinegun that a patron gave her <BR>
as a bonus after she expressed an interest in pre-space terran weapons <BR>
(the patron was a gun-nut). Of course she also carried around LAWs, <BR>
grenades and sticks of plastique when possible/appropriate.<BR>
<BR>
When I'm running Trav games my players tend to use less (but my current <BR>
group know next to nothing about guns, etc), usually just a pistol and <BR>
a long-arm or Big Pistol, plus assorted knives, etc.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:52:26 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
David Summers wrote :-<BR>
<stuff I agree with up to a point snipped><BR>
<BR>
What I should have said to make my point crystal clear :-<BR>
<BR>
There's a *big* difference between colonisation and infection.<BR>
<BR>
The microbes of Vland can and do colonise humans.<BR>
Human gut and skin flora can and do colonise various niches on Vland.<BR>
It's hard going, both ways - the presence of some common substrates<BR>
makes it possible - it doesn't make the process easy.<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani, by the time of contact with the Terrans, have been isolated<BR>
from a lot of bacterial and viral evolution. The results, as they say,<BR>
are canon history.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 02:11:11 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Medical query<BR>
<BR>
On 27 Jun 00, at 8:41, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I have a question for Robert O'Connor, TML's resident medico:<BR>
<BR>
> What exactly is a "punctured eardrum" and why does it make one unfit for<BR>
> military service? One reason I have heard advanced is that it makes a gas mask<BR>
> useless, but I find this sets off my built-in doubt alarm.<BR>
<BR>
Not sure, but I think the most obvious would be the loss of hearing on one <BR>
side (plus it increases the risk of ear infections and I believe it effects <BR>
balance).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:16:43 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 6:23 AM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hmmm..<BR>
> <BR>
> Depends on the group - I have had groups that never owned more then a 9mm<BR>
> autopistol, but the most memorable group had 'Groove' a BD clad marine with<BR>
> an 20mm RAM AutoGL. He accually had a clip of nukes for it (hard times<BR>
> campain).<BR>
> <BR>
> One adventure with another group of overarmed fools, their patron _made_<BR>
> them only take body pistols on a job.... hehehe.. they really felt naked.<BR>
<BR>
Given the effectiveness of the body pistol, I think I'd take a baseball bat<BR>
Classic Trav:<BR>
<BR>
Weapon          Damage      Low     Avg     Max<BR>
<BR>
body pistol     3D-8        1       2,3     10<BR>
Ball Bat        2D          2       7       14<BR>
dagger          2D-3        1       4       11<BR>
<BR>
I am reminded of Jeff Coopers coment on the .25acp (appropriately body<BR>
pistol like)<BR>
<BR>
"Carry it if it makes you feel better, but don't load it.  If you load it,<BR>
you might shoot at someone.  If you hit them, they will become very angry<BR>
and do you serious bodily damage".<BR>
<BR>
I have never had one of my players carry an body pistol. They view it as a<BR>
gun for old ladies who've watched too much "Dick Salamander" (IMTU, a well<BR>
known fictional secret agent--think James Bond).  In the Hollywood<BR>
tradition, in Dick Salamander movies, body pistols can blast exotic racing<BR>
grav cars into flaming hulks, dope stick holders shoot poison darts, and<BR>
Dick only ever get's hit in the left shoulder (and always tosses of a witty<BR>
line when wound-- "Damn, this suit is ruined.  Sergio will be most<BR>
distressed" and then blasts the bad guy with some clever device)<BR>
<BR>
All I have to do to irritate a character is to have some NPC say something<BR>
like "wow, is that a real [insert item].  Just like Dick Salamander!"<BR>
<BR>
These military types usually are pretty heavily armed, although I do tend to<BR>
discourage really destructive of high tech weapons.  IMTU, privately owned<BR>
battledress and plasma/fusion guns are very rare.  Old fashion slug throwers<BR>
up to Gauss weapons is the norm, although curiously, laser weapons rarely<BR>
seem to be chosen by the players.<BR>
<BR>
Heavily armed.  One example come to mind:<BR>
<BR>
'Fido' Ravang: Vargr gunfighter and adventurer.  On his special harness he<BR>
carries 6 autopistols, plus 2 in ankle holsters/boot tops.  a small hide out<BR>
or two, and a knife (for cutting string and such).  This is walking around<BR>
armorment.  He shoots with two pistols, not necessarily well, but can put a<BR>
lot of lead down rangle.  When Fido calls you out, everyone gets out of the<BR>
line of fire (which is pretty much anything that's not Fido).<BR>
<BR>
We have mercs who feel uncomfortable when stripped down to nothing more than<BR>
a sawed-off shotgun, Gauss rifle, pistol, 3 knives, a dozen magazines and<BR>
only 5 or 6 grenades.<BR>
<BR>
Of course we have others who not so equipped.<BR>
<BR>
"What's that metal looking think on your belt"<BR>
"It's a gun"<BR>
"Oh yes, I've seen pictures.  It's not, umm..., going to shoot anyone is<BR>
it?"<BR>
"Not on accident"<BR>
<BR>
Of course these types invariable have something like, oh, computer-27<BR>
"you may shoot me, but I have just altered your computer files. I suggest<BR>
you get out of here before the police arrive.  I'm not sure how they'll<BR>
react to finding Roscoe 'the cowardly, child-molesting cop-killer' O'Brien"<BR>
in their police station.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "I have to go to work? Damn" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:23:45 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Battle Dress martial arts<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith writes:<BR>
>(Working from a CT perspective)<BR>
<BR>
	There is another?  :)<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>It strikes me as reasonable to treat Battle Dress' HTH combat enhancements<BR>
>as such a specialized BD weapon system.<BR>
>I think that when someone is wearing Battle Dress, it is reasonable to limit<BR>
>their Brawling skill to the lower of Battle Dress and Brawling. If the person<BR>
>doesn't have BD skill, then allow them to use Vacc Suit minus some number - <BR>
>Vacc Suit minus 2, perhaps?  This may give a good reflection of a person<BR>
knowing <BR>
>how to compensate for (and take advantage of) the increased mass and bulk of <BR>
>BD, and the reduced ranges of motion.  <BR>
<BR>
	This is exactly how I would handle it.  Plus increased damage for<BR>
	"unarmed" combat with BD, perhaps 1D+1, 2D-1, 2D?<BR>
<BR>
	Can BD itself take damage?  For an unarmed (or at least not in BD)<BR>
	character, damage goes to 1D: 1-2=Str, 3-4=Dex, 5-6=End.  In BD,<BR>
	1D: 1=Str, 2=Dex, 3=End, 4-6=(BD Str).<BR>
<BR>
>And don't forget the chance of mishaps for untrained users!  <BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	If your roll to hit is 2- (2D + BD or [vacc suit - 4]) you do something<BR>
	bad?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 02:26:18 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
On 26 Jun 00, at 17:25, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> So the next question, ObTrav, is how many guns do your characters typically<BR>
> own.  I am especially curious about Eastern US players and all you non-America<BR>
> players.  I wonder if local culture effects perceptions on how many weapons a<BR>
> character need.  Do British or eastern US players feel that their characters<BR>
> are adequately armed with a few small arms?  My players are all western type<BR>
> barrel-suckers (gun enthusiasts).  If their characters use guns, then they<BR>
> tend to have a lot. One of my players accumulated enough weapons to arms a<BR>
> small mercenary unit, and lived in a warehouse, vault so he could store them<BR>
> all.<BR>
<BR>
Well most of my characters have had a strong liking for the <BR>
revolver/silencer/shoulderstock combination, usually backed up with a <BR>
blade or a dagger. Some of my more "combat oriented" characters have <BR>
branched out into submachine guns, but with one exception I feel that one <BR>
personal small arm with a long arm (usually a rifle or ACR, but <BR>
occasionally a laser rifle) in the airraft is more than adequate.<BR>
<BR>
And the one exception, well that character was fun; and lasted suprisingly <BR>
well to eventually retire from game play with a sizable fortune. Her favoured <BR>
weapon combination? Hand-held Tac missile launcher, with a PGMP-14 for <BR>
more delicate close in work.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:28:42 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: rats<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>You don't know some of the rats I see coming off the River. (I'm in Co-op<BR>
>>City myself.)<BR>
>>Size of small dogs some of them.<BR>
>I've seen a few large rats myself. You see, I used to have to walk home<BR>
>late at night past the grain loading docks on the river. Lots of *big*<BR>
>rats there. You mind your own business and don't crowd them, and<BR>
>they'll not bother you.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	A large rat might be 1 lb, though there may be exceptional cases.<BR>
	I must admit that I tend to be skeptical about reports of 10 lb<BR>
	rats, but I cannot dismiss them outright.  The ObTrav is, how<BR>
	often will the PCs be given exagerated descriptions of local<BR>
	wildlife?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:32:34 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>>>BTW, my lease says this building is Law Level F or so (no weapons<BR>
>>>>allowed on premises) so my guns live with a friend. <sigh><BR>
>>>Well, there's something just wrong about that.<BR>
>>I find it more wrong that you live somewhere where you actually need to be <BR>
>>that concerned about personal safety.<BR>
>>(BTW, this is NOT a comment about whether guns themselves are bad or not, I <BR>
>>just really feel sad that you have to live in such an unsafe environment).<BR>
>It's not bad here. I rarely hear shots. <BR>
>The place I lived before I'd hear them several times a night on Friday<BR>
>and Saturday. And this was only 4 blocks from a police station!<BR>
>I'm not worried, but I am "prudent". <BR>
<BR>
	You can have some fun with PCs by having locals tell the PCs that<BR>
	an area is "safe" because the locals think of it as safe relative<BR>
	to their own experience.  The PCs might think otherwise.  Those of<BR>
	us who have never heard a gunshot in their neighbourhood no doubt<BR>
	have a different perception of "safe" than some others.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:38:14 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
<BR>
"VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com> wroite:<BR>
> <BR>
> First, confession time: I never read Vilani & Vargr. Is this the source for<BR>
> the oft-quoted Vilani lack of surrender customs and tendency towards<BR>
> ruthlessness? <BR>
<BR>
Yup. It's not really fair to expect everyone to have read what is<BR>
a relatively rare MT sourcebook, but it is a great soure of info <BR>
and inspiration. It's worth it if you can find a copy for sale <BR>
(which isn't really that hard).<BR>
<BR>
> I always assumed that the Ziru Sirka was more of a commercial<BR>
> empire, seeing as it was founded by its megacorporations, and not an overly<BR>
> militaristic entity. <BR>
<BR>
Well, yes and no. To me the most accurate description ever of the <BR>
Vilani is that they are "Empire Builders". This means lots of things -<BR>
politics, lots of commerce, war, you name it. The Vilani were probably<BR>
fairly adept war makers once they finally met another extra-Vilani<BR>
race.<BR>
<BR>
Additionally, the Vilani are the originators of the whole "major race"/<BR>
"minor race" thing. They're racists in the biggest way possible, possibly<BR>
on par with the sort of extreme racism seen in Nazi Germany or late <BR>
19th/early 20th century USA, where people of the wrong "race" (in so<BR>
much as "race" is a somewhat difficult term to define) are not treated<BR>
with the same set of rights and are generally looked down upon, etc. <BR>
<BR>
(Before I stir up any Germans or Americans, I could list lots and lots <BR>
of examples of extreme semi-class-oriented racism, but these are just <BR>
two fairly well known examples. I could just as well have picked the<BR>
treatment of Chinese/Asians in early 20th century Canada. Fill in <BR>
whatever time/place/racial groups you see fit).<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, without getting too much off topic, this predisposition to<BR>
seeing their opponents as inferior would certainly have an effect on<BR>
what the Vilani consider proper ways to deal with enemies.<BR>
<BR>
Finally, note that this is, for the most part, a description of First<BR>
Imperium Vilani. By the Third Imperium being Vilani is about as big a<BR>
deal as being from Boston - they may have some small differences between<BR>
them and a Solomani, but not really that much.<BR>
<BR>
> Finally, did the Terrans even need to develop bioweapons to fight the<BR>
> Vilani? I recently did some freelance work on influenza. An infectious<BR>
> disease can have devastating effects on a virgin population! <BR>
<BR>
Anyone smell smoke? sniff sniff<BR>
<BR>
> Just my Cr .02. Pardon me while I duck into my flame-proof bunker for<BR>
> jumping into the Great Controversies of the TML.<BR>
<BR>
Welcome to the list, Fred! :)<BR>
<BR>
> Fred "Scorched to a Crisp" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
Ethan "Also sometimes reads alt.folklore.urban" Henry<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:50:31 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: On Killing, etc<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin writes:<BR>
>Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
>>What bothers me isn't so much Colonel Grossman's "agenda", but what it is<BR>
>>that he tends to leave out.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Biologists call behavior which is viable in the long run an "evolutionarily<BR>
>stable strategy," or ESS. One clearly necessary condition for an ESS is that<BR>
>the strategy performs well against *itself*. You can make this statement<BR>
>rigorous by using the branch of mathematics called game theory if you really<BR>
>want to.<BR>
<BR>
	Bear in mind that an ESS is only an ESS under specific environmental<BR>
	conditions.  If these conditions change, the ESS may as well.  Also,<BR>
	an ESS may include more than one behaviour.  For example, an ESS might<BR>
	be something like "if you are smaller than average cooperate and avoid<BR>
	conflict, if you are larger than average bully others."<BR>
<BR>
>It seems to me that the Marshall's<BR>
>"universal-innate-human-aversion-to-killing" is an example of an ESS, while<BR>
>the opposite is an unstable strategy, and thus would not survive anything<BR>
>past the short term. Because it is extremely likely that humans have evolved<BR>
>behavior which is an ESS, we probably have some innate aversion to killing<BR>
>each other.<BR>
<BR>
	Be careful of possible circular reasoning.  It may well be that<BR>
	human behaviour had evolved to an ESS, but there are possible<BR>
	reasons that it might not have.  Even if we assume that it had<BR>
	(this is not an unlikely scenario) that does not mean that aversion<BR>
	to killing is part of that ESS.  Humans have culture, which can evolve<BR>
	very quickly, and it is difficult to distinguish between cultural<BR>
	traits and genetic ones in our species.  That being said, it would<BR>
	not surprise me at all if we carry a genetic predisposition for<BR>
	avoidance of homocidal behaviour, particularly for avoiding homocide<BR>
	of those close to us.<BR>
<BR>
>Attempting to apply the ESS concept in the Traveller universe, we may get<BR>
>some interesting consequences. I am no expert on the Aslan and Vargr<BR>
>cultures, for example, but for these cultures to have survived any length of<BR>
>time, they too must have followed an ESS.<BR>
<BR>
	It would certainly be useful to build these species with ESS in mind.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
evolutionary biologist<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2668<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 27 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2669<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Vilani and Bioweapons<BR>
Re: Battle Dress and Martial Arts (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
Re: Rats<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:55:00 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 7:28 AM, Ian Ferguson at ian@vax2.concordia.ca wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> A large rat might be 1 lb, though there may be exceptional cases.<BR>
> I must admit that I tend to be skeptical about reports of 10 lb<BR>
> rats, but I cannot dismiss them outright.  The ObTrav is, how<BR>
> often will the PCs be given exagerated descriptions of local<BR>
> wildlife?<BR>
> <BR>
> Peez<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I have just put my daughter's pet rat "Whiskers" on the postal scale.  He is<BR>
an adult male 'dumbo' fancy rat about 9 month old.  He has lived a live of<BR>
ease and is well fed, plump but not fat.  What I would cal an 'eating' rat.<BR>
He is a hair under 14 oz, and is what I would consider rat-sized.<BR>
<BR>
When we were kids, we used to shoot rats at the dump (you could do that sort<BR>
of thing back then).  My recollection was that they were the size of rabbit.<BR>
'Course, I was a might smaller back in them days.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:00:15 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 7:32 AM, Ian Ferguson at ian@vax2.concordia.ca wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> You can have some fun with PCs by having locals tell the PCs that<BR>
> an area is "safe" because the locals think of it as safe relative<BR>
> to their own experience.  The PCs might think otherwise.  Those of<BR>
> us who have never heard a gunshot in their neighbourhood no doubt<BR>
> have a different perception of "safe" than some others.<BR>
> <BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
North east Portland is an interesting area.  I worked at a lab that was<BR>
located on Weidler and Russell  (I bet Leonard knows where this is).<BR>
Sometime at night, when we would go out into the parking lot and hear the<BR>
crackle of gunfire.  Very different from the suburban community that I live<BR>
in (Beaverton) where neighbors have been know to pay a visit if you miss<BR>
mowing you lawn two weeks in a row.  I could mow my law, but I'm sure my cat<BR>
would miss the prime hunting ground.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:09:40 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
>Given the effectiveness of the body pistol, I think I'd take a baseball bat<BR>
>Classic Trav:<BR>
>Weapon          Damage      Low     Avg     Max<BR>
>body pistol     3D-8        1       2,3     10<BR>
>Ball Bat        2D          2       7       14<BR>
>dagger          2D-3        1       4       11<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I hate the damage rolls that produce less than 0 results, and have<BR>
	adjusted body pistol and dagger to 2D-1.  However, assuming that<BR>
	you use 3D-8 with a minimum damage of 1, the average is actually<BR>
	3.08333 (still pretty pitiful).  Even using 2D-1, the body pistol<BR>
	is mostly useful as a concealed weapon, or for someone with low Str<BR>
	and/or high Dex.  It does give you first attack on an opponent<BR>
	approaching from medium range (you might get lucky at medium range,<BR>
	and you can get a shot off at 4 m before the other guy can use his<BR>
	Baseball bat).<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:12:25 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> You can have some fun with PCs by having locals tell the PCs<BR>
> that an area is "safe" because the locals think of it as safe<BR>
> relative to their own experience.  The PCs might think<BR>
> otherwise.  Those of us who have never heard a gunshot in their<BR>
> neighbourhood no doubt have a different perception of "safe"<BR>
> than some others.<BR>
<BR>
Its not only guns you have to worry about.  A few years ago I was<BR>
walking down a street in London  visiting  my  Dad's  office  and<BR>
passed a parked truck.  Literally  only  about  5  minuets  after<BR>
passing the truck it blew up because of an terrorist (IRA)  bomb.<BR>
My initial reaction was ... "annoyance": I liked the area and  it<BR>
seemed more like vandalism than terrorism!  (It was a  couple  of<BR>
hours later before the reality of how close I'd come sunk in.)<BR>
<BR>
On another occasion when I worked in a merchant bank and a  rival<BR>
bank was bombed:  The next day walking into work I had to  'wade'<BR>
knee-deep through papers  with  confidential  client  information<BR>
(name, address, account balance, etc) as the blast had sucked all<BR>
the papers out of the rival's offices into the street.  After all<BR>
the fuss my employer had made over client confidentiality, to see<BR>
this happen to our rival struck everyone in our office as 'pretty<BR>
funny'.  (*We* had a 'clear desk' policy  to  prevent  this  from<BR>
happening to us (the lost papers, not the bombing).)<BR>
<BR>
And last year I actually heard a work collegue muse out loud that<BR>
christmas didn't seem like christmas anymore without the seasonal<BR>
IRA bombing campaign.  And I knew what he ment.<BR>
<BR>
Yet many Londoners felt that they were safer in  London  than  in<BR>
any typical US city (thanks in part to  all  the  gun  fights  in<BR>
imported US television programs we watch).<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Every day life on Efate and Ruie just prior  to  the  5FW<BR>
springs to mind with the Ine Givar terrorists.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:27:13 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
At one time I lived on the corner of Alberta and 33rd...Not a nice place<BR>
either.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 11:00 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/27/00 7:32 AM, Ian Ferguson at ian@vax2.concordia.ca wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > You can have some fun with PCs by having locals tell the PCs that<BR>
> > an area is "safe" because the locals think of it as safe relative<BR>
> > to their own experience.  The PCs might think otherwise.  Those of<BR>
> > us who have never heard a gunshot in their neighbourhood no doubt<BR>
> > have a different perception of "safe" than some others.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Peez<BR>
><BR>
> North east Portland is an interesting area.  I worked at a lab that was<BR>
> located on Weidler and Russell  (I bet Leonard knows where this is).<BR>
> Sometime at night, when we would go out into the parking lot and hear the<BR>
> crackle of gunfire.  Very different from the suburban community that I<BR>
live<BR>
> in (Beaverton) where neighbors have been know to pay a visit if you miss<BR>
> mowing you lawn two weeks in a row.  I could mow my law, but I'm sure my<BR>
cat<BR>
> would miss the prime hunting ground.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> "Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
> killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
> --<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:24:43 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
<BR>
"Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> The Vilani were acknowledged to be hundreds (Maybe as much as as thousands)<BR>
> years behind the Solomani as far as medical technology goes. <BR>
<BR>
Hm. Well, again, there should be a distinction made between 3I era <BR>
Vilani and the Vilani of the First Imperium and earlier.<BR>
<BR>
Some things the Vilani did thousands of years before the Terrans:<BR>
<BR>
 - invent electricity, computers and just about everything else under <BR>
   the Sun<BR>
 - colonize several worlds via sublight sleeper ships, something the<BR>
   Terrans _never_ did<BR>
 - independently discover gravitics and jump technology<BR>
   (which, somewhat more arguably, the Terrans never did either)<BR>
 - Build a stable, multi-racial (albeit racist) interstellar empire<BR>
   and hold it for a couple thousand years (again, the Terrans never<BR>
   quite managed to pull this one off without returning to the Vilani<BR>
   model in the 3rd Imperium).<BR>
<BR>
This is not a race of dumb people. The Vilani are intelligent, <BR>
resourceful, flexible and highly goal-oriented. There is no reason to<BR>
think that they're somehow incapable of discovering gene theory,<BR>
especially after their contact with other (minor) human races.<BR>
<BR>
> Basic gene<BR>
> theory might not have ever developed on Vland, nor might any sort of<BR>
> microbiology. The Rote method of teaching embraced by the Vilani would have<BR>
> discouraged R&D: <BR>
<BR>
The move from a more "curious" society to one dominated by rote learning<BR>
did not occur until well after the interstellar period of the Vilani.<BR>
There's some note in V&V on the timeline regarding this. Vilani R&D<BR>
can be compared to Japanese R&D - not always as agressive as say, <BR>
American R&D, but highly geared towards the consumer. When you think<BR>
of Vilani manufacturing, imagine Sony making everything. Sometimes<BR>
cutting edge, but only when necessary to get in there and dominate <BR>
the market. There will still be casette Walkman's in the 3rd Imperium<BR>
if the Vilani among us have their way. And you would kill to have one. :)<BR>
<BR>
> Canon also suggests that the life on Vland was dramatically<BR>
> different from Humaniti; there would be no close analogues to compare and<BR>
> contrast against a human. <BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor has commented on this much better than I'll ever be <BR>
able to - there would still be some dangerous microbial activity <BR>
on Vland.<BR>
<BR>
> The Solomani would have noticed this during their first meetings, I'm sure.<BR>
> The probably weren't "looking" for a chink in the Vilani's armor, but the<BR>
> first time a Solomani doctor went into what passed for a Vilani hospital, he<BR>
> would have a clear picture of what they were capable of.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, a well-run national heath care system. I'm sure that while doctors<BR>
were gasping at the primitive nature of Vilani hospitals, hospital<BR>
administrators from across Terra were scrambling to get in to see how<BR>
it's done.<BR>
<BR>
> Bioweapons would be a Solomani speacialty. However, maybe the Vilani would<BR>
> have an ace or two up their sleeves with chamical weapons. Poisons extracted<BR>
> from their common food staples might well be very deadly.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps. Trouble with bioweapons is that, unlike explosives, they just <BR>
keep blowing up over and over again.<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:42:13 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 8:09 AM, Ian Ferguson at ian@vax2.concordia.ca wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
>> Given the effectiveness of the body pistol, I think I'd take a baseball bat<BR>
>> Classic Trav:<BR>
>> Weapon          Damage      Low     Avg     Max<BR>
>> body pistol     3D-8        1       2,3     10<BR>
>> Ball Bat        2D          2       7       14<BR>
>> dagger          2D-3        1       4       11<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> <BR>
> I hate the damage rolls that produce less than 0 results, and have<BR>
> adjusted body pistol and dagger to 2D-1.  However, assuming that<BR>
> you use 3D-8 with a minimum damage of 1, the average is actually<BR>
> 3.08333 (still pretty pitiful).  Even using 2D-1, the body pistol<BR>
> is mostly useful as a concealed weapon, or for someone with low Str<BR>
> and/or high Dex.  It does give you first attack on an opponent<BR>
> approaching from medium range (you might get lucky at medium range,<BR>
> and you can get a shot off at 4 m before the other guy can use his<BR>
> Baseball bat).<BR>
> <BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
When I say average damage, I mean statistically what the dice will roll.  On<BR>
3D6, the highest probability roll is a 10, or 11<BR>
<BR>
As for the Body pistol vs. bat.  You MIGHT hit at medium range.  If you do<BR>
hit, and the statistical damage is done, you could find yourself in deep<BR>
trouble.  The Mythical average man is 777 for phyical stats (Talking CT<BR>
here). He can take two or 3 point with little more than a shrug. He is now<BR>
really mad.  Provided you are also mythically average, if he connects with<BR>
his baseball bat and does average damage, you are out.  The subsequent blows<BR>
he delivers will be on your unconscious body.<BR>
<BR>
You will probably wake up in some hospital, after enduring a<BR>
handgun-colonoscopy (or what ever the correct medical term is for having a<BR>
handgun removed from such a place).<BR>
<BR>
I never saw the point of the body pistol, except to kill pests or shoot<BR>
cans.  Carrying a body pistol IMTU is the sign of an amateur.  But also<BR>
common (how many people who carry guns, carry those little .25 cal mouse<BR>
guns?  A lot, 'cause their small and light and they really don't every<BR>
expect to use them).<BR>
<BR>
When NPCs IMTU pull out body pistols, that's usually when the PCs take out<BR>
the 12mm Autos, shotguns and such:<BR>
<BR>
"Cute gun, will it get bigger when its older?"<BR>
"This is an .88 magnum.  It shoots through schools"<BR>
"No fair, your gun is bigger"<BR>
<BR>
Of course all this is subject to Heinlein's law "there is no such thing as a<BR>
dangerous weapon.  There are only dangerous people."<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:00:09 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Bioweapons<BR>
<BR>
Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com> very helpfully responds:<BR>
<BR>
[snip of V&V info]<BR>
>>Finally, note that this is, for the most part, a description of First<BR>
Imperium Vilani. By the Third Imperium being Vilani is about as big a<BR>
deal as being from Boston - they may have some small differences between<BR>
them and a Solomani, but not really that much.<<<BR>
<BR>
Which was one of the problems I had with MT's restored Vilani Imperium<BR>
(well, the real problem was the idea that the three Megacorps would<BR>
voluntarily pull out of the rest of the Imperium, but that's the subject of<BR>
another troll, er, thread. :)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, a good model for the Vilani might be the Chinese, who were sharp<BR>
merchants, great empire builders (if not particularly expansionistic), and<BR>
regarded non-Chinese as barbarians. YMMV, though.<BR>
<BR>
>> Finally, did the Terrans even need to develop bioweapons to fight the<BR>
>> Vilani? I recently did some freelance work on influenza. An infectious<BR>
>> disease can have devastating effects on a virgin population!<BR>
<BR>
>Anyone smell smoke? sniff sniff<BR>
<BR>
I'm not trying to restart a flame war! If there's already been a good<BR>
handwave, just fill me in!<BR>
<BR>
But I wonder about Vilani meeting Terrans. Vilani, by our standards, have<BR>
basically *no* resistance to any terran bugs that evolved after the<BR>
Ancients' intervention. That definitely includes most of the major crowd<BR>
diseases (plague, tuberculosis, influenza) as such only became common with<BR>
the rise of cities, and probably includes the common cold and other<BR>
relatively minor diseases. Additionally, (and Robert O'Connor can correct me<BR>
if I'm totally off base) there are a number of bacteria that have evolved<BR>
into a commensual relationship with humans that might still be virulent to<BR>
the Vilani--stuff like skin and mouth bacteria, etc. Also, fungal infections<BR>
would be pretty nasty. Then there are sexually transmitted diseases.<BR>
<BR>
I'm considering models like that in K.S. Robinson's "Mars" trilogy when one<BR>
of the Martian characters visits Earth and immediately comes down with a<BR>
host (no pun intended) of parasitic infections, skin diseases, and general<BR>
nasty stuff.<BR>
<BR>
>>Welcome to the list, Fred! :)<BR>
<BR>
Thank you. It's great to talk Traveller regularly.<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:53:35 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress and Martial Arts (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote,<BR>
>Maybe a user with higher battledress knows the limitations of range of<BR>
motion or battledress weaknesses, or how to make battledress do things the<BR>
manual says you can't (rocket powered axe kick, aerobatic back flip with<BR>
double elbow strike to the power condensor).<BR>
<BR>
Thoughts?<<BR>
<BR>
I suppose the first question becomes, who do you believe about the<BR>
flexibility and weight of heavy (medieval) armor? Some say you couldn't<BR>
stand up without a crane, others that you could swim in late period plate.<BR>
If the first, you walk and fire an FGMP in battle dress and nothing else. If<BR>
the second, you can perform full fledged "martial arts" with proper training<BR>
in the various amplification systems and a psychotic attitude.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote,<BR>
>It strikes me as reasonable to treat Battle Dress' HTH combat enhancements<BR>
as such a specialized BD weapon system.<<BR>
<BR>
I'd agree.<BR>
"Battle Dress-jitsu"<BR>
<BR>
>Its an interesting idea to give people with high BD skill a bonus in<BR>
damaging<BR>
enemy Battle Dress suits.  One question is, "How many kinds of suits are<BR>
there,<BR>
and how many of them have weaknesses in common?"<<BR>
<BR>
I recall several models being mentioned for both the Imperium and the<BR>
Zhodani, including such things as Scout, Assault, Command and Commando. Add<BR>
in non-powered Combat Armor, different manufacturers and the different TL's<BR>
and I'd say there is a significant range of suit types. How  many weaknesses<BR>
to MBT's have in common?<BR>
(Riveted BD anyone? :-P)<BR>
<BR>
Tsykoduk wrote,<BR>
>2) I would not throw him.. I would RLH or put my hands into the air and<BR>
assume the position. (unless I was also in battle dress - then I would hit<BR>
him with a big stick)<<BR>
<BR>
Well of course. I was making the basic assumption that your surrender<BR>
wouldn't be accepted and you had to fight. (Which is what I make for any<BR>
civilian self-defense situation to begin with.)<BR>
<BR>
>Hmm.. A new sport: BDBoxing 2 teams of 2 battledress outfitted contestants,<BR>
1 large warehouse, an assortment of large sticks, rocks, and pointy things.<<BR>
<BR>
The scary thing is, there must be someone rich enough to sponsor a league of<BR>
this in the Imperium somewhere.<BR>
Yeesh...<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:01:48 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 8:12 AM, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Yet many Londoners felt that they were safer in  London  than  in<BR>
> any typical US city (thanks in part to  all  the  gun  fights  in<BR>
> imported US television programs we watch).<BR>
> <BR>
> ObTrav: Every day life on Efate and Ruie just prior  to  the  5FW<BR>
> springs to mind with the Ine Givar terrorists.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Aren't perceptions fun?  I understand that violent crime in Englnad is<BR>
catching up with the US.  And in the US, home invasions are rare compared<BR>
with the UK.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I understand that Scotland leads Europe in murders. Do you think that<BR>
you fellow countrymen feel scotland is 'dangerous'.<BR>
<BR>
I like to tell people that during the height of the 'Wild West'(1865 to<BR>
1890) the per capita murder rate in Dodge City, Abilene and other famous<BR>
'rough' town was much lower than civilized eastern cities like New York.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks to the media, people assume that there was a daily showdown.  The gun<BR>
fight at the OK corral was notable because such things were rare.  Bad men<BR>
who shot up the town tended to get very unpleasant receptions.  Look at the<BR>
Northfield, Minnesota raid.  When the James gang shot some people, the town<BR>
got pretty riled up shot the gang up pretty badly.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav, IMTU, Regina Up Port is a rough place (at least that is the common<BR>
perception).  Just about everyone is armed.  Interestingly, when there is<BR>
trouble, it is usually started by offworlders.  The locals are as likely to<BR>
'take care of things' as the PCs.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, there are a lot of murders (compared with civilized world like<BR>
Rhylanor), but most of these are what the locals refer to as a 'Regina<BR>
suicide'.  This is death caused by stupidity or "he had it coming", and has<BR>
become part of the local culture.<BR>
<BR>
example:  Two cops find the body of a known criminal still clutching his<BR>
body pistol.  Witnesses describe the scene as a mugging gone wrong.<BR>
"Looks like a Regina suicide"<BR>
"Yup"<BR>
<BR>
"An armed society is a polite society" -- Heinlein<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Armed and polite" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:56:55 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
As a New Yorker, most gamers I know prefer more weapons than they have ever<BR>
seen outside of movies like the Matrix. A very few have some favorite, but<BR>
most want the biggest and the baddest. As mentioned, Tac missiles with a<BR>
FGMP chaser is right on target if I'd let them.<BR>
My preference is something big, something quiet, something small, and<BR>
something very highly explosive - however many different weapons that takes,<BR>
then something for back up and a knife or fist load.<BR>
People here are very lucky for the laws in place. >:-)<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:04:15 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote,<BR>
>I only own one pair of hard soled shoes, and generally only<BR>
wear them ballroom dancing.  Well, I guess my Red Wing work<BR>
boots count as hard soled -- but I only wear them in the<BR>
woods or very rarely for going out in the city.<<BR>
<BR>
Work boots or dress shoes are the best. Certain types of running sneakers<BR>
are Ok if they are new.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote,<BR>
>I'd say! I once slipped on some ice during a winter hike, and managed<BR>
to bash my shin on a rock. Nowhere near as hard as a good kick. I<BR>
didn't break anything, but I've still got the scar. And I sure as heck<BR>
couldn't *walk* for several minutes. <<BR>
<BR>
I caught a light tap from boots during one training session. The scar hung<BR>
around for about 4 years before finally fading away.<BR>
As a note, the best way to deal with shin injuries is to rub the affected<BR>
area as much as possible and as hard as possible for several minutes to<BR>
clear up and blood clotting and to push the bone swelling down. It generally<BR>
keep the bruising to a minimum and reduces full recovery from 2-3 weeks to<BR>
about 3-5 days. At least in my experience. My shins feel like one of those<BR>
topographical maps.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:09:59 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote,<BR>
>I've seen a few large rats myself. You see, I used to have to walk home<BR>
late at night past the grain loading docks on the river. Lots of *big*<BR>
rats there. You mind your own business and don't crowd them, and<BR>
they'll not bother you.<<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, don't "crowd" them. In NYC, they claim territory.<BR>
<BR>
>If they're *that* big, I'll use a shotgun, thank you very much. Or<BR>
maybe the SKS with some of the Russian steel-core ammo. :-)<<BR>
<BR>
Good luck man. I'll back you up if I can have a flame-thrower myself.<BR>
Otherwise...<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote,<BR>
>A large rat might be 1 lb, though there may be exceptional cases.<BR>
I must admit that I tend to be skeptical about reports of 10 lb<BR>
rats, but I cannot dismiss them outright.  The ObTrav is, how<BR>
often will the PCs be given exaggerated descriptions of local<BR>
wildlife?<<BR>
<BR>
We have some that small too. :)<BR>
And in NYC, we never tend to talk down the size of the wildlife. It makes us<BR>
feel safer.<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote,<BR>
>When we were kids, we used to shoot rats at the dump (you could do that<BR>
sort<BR>
of thing back then).  My recollection was that they were the size of rabbit.<BR>
'Course, I was a might smaller back in them days.<<BR>
<BR>
Actually I haven't seen as many as the bigger ones lately, but that's mainly<BR>
due to the construction winding down in a lot of places so they can go back<BR>
to hiding more.<BR>
I still get freaked when I see some of the monsters late night up on the el<BR>
at Yankee Stadium.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:18:06 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 8:56 AM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> As a New Yorker, most gamers I know prefer more weapons than they have ever<BR>
> seen outside of movies like the Matrix. A very few have some favorite, but<BR>
> most want the biggest and the baddest. As mentioned, Tac missiles with a<BR>
> FGMP chaser is right on target if I'd let them.<BR>
> My preference is something big, something quiet, something small, and<BR>
> something very highly explosive - however many different weapons that takes,<BR>
> then something for back up and a knife or fist load.<BR>
> People here are very lucky for the laws in place. >:-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
Well, in the rare case I actually get to play (as opposed to referee) as a<BR>
merc, I like to shoot at very long range while using cover and concealment.<BR>
The SURF gun is just right for close in work (see<BR>
http://weapons.travellercentral.com in the shotguns section for a<BR>
description).<BR>
<BR>
My evil NPCs tend to prefer something like the very common 5mm auto with<BR>
supressor delivered (many times) to the back of the head.  Preferable while<BR>
the target is otherwise occupied (sleeping, eating at a fine restaurant,<BR>
having sex).<BR>
<BR>
Let face it though.  Most PCs represent the dangerously psychotic or<BR>
sociopathic 2% of the population.  If they were normal, they wouldn't be<BR>
adventurers.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "mostly sane now" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:30:45 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> Aren't perceptions fun?  I understand that violent crime in<BR>
> Englnad is catching up with the US.  And in the US, home<BR>
> invasions are rare compared with the UK.<BR>
<BR>
It wouldn't surprise me, especially when  under  UK  law  you  do<BR>
*not* have the right to defend yourself (except  when  threatened<BR>
with *death* and you can't run away) or your property (ever).<BR>
<BR>
Other fun perceptions:<BR>
- - Chance of death from flying: 1 in 10 million<BR>
- - Chance of death from taking Ecstasy: 1 in 10 million<BR>
- - Chance of death from bee/wasp/hornet/etc sting: 1 in 135,000<BR>
- - Chance of death whilst in police custody: 1 in 33,000<BR>
<BR>
There are still people who are afraid to fly but think nothing of<BR>
driving to the airport.<BR>
<BR>
And because alcohol is legal but Ecstasy isn't most people  think<BR>
alcohol is safe and Ecstasy is not.  Ecstasy became illegal after<BR>
a media frenzy about a teenage girl who died from a rare allergic<BR>
reaction.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, I understand that Scotland leads Europe in murders. Do you<BR>
> think that you fellow countrymen feel scotland is 'dangerous'.<BR>
<BR>
Just done a quick poll in the office: no one thinks  of  Scotland<BR>
as being particularly dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav, IMTU, Regina Up Port is a rough place (at least that is<BR>
> the common perception).  Just about everyone is armed.<BR>
> Interestingly, when there is trouble, it is usually started by<BR>
> offworlders.  The locals are as likely to 'take care of things'<BR>
> as the PCs.<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
In past campaigns I've always  played  Regina  as  civilised  and<BR>
slightly boring.  But I think I might use this.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:54:00 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Rats<BR>
<BR>
Peez types:<BR>
<BR>
>   A large rat might be 1 lb, though there may be exceptional cases.<BR>
>   I must admit that I tend to be skeptical about reports of 10 lb<BR>
>   rats, but I cannot dismiss them outright.  The ObTrav is, how<BR>
>   often will the PCs be given exagerated descriptions of local<BR>
>   wildlife?<BR>
<BR>
Depends on how many shots it took before they ran it off...<BR>
<BR>
ONE pound? Heck, the local ROOF rats are bigger. I've never seen the big <BR>
Norwegian Blacks that exceed cat-size, but the rodentia line is versatile <BR>
enough to produce the Capybara (sp?) which, IIRC, tops 50 pounds...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2669<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 27 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2670<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
RE: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
RE: Canon<BR>
Re: On Killing, etc<BR>
Re: Rats<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
RE: Canon<BR>
RE: Canon<BR>
RE: Possible martial arts variation within ACQ<BR>
Re: Re: Canon<BR>
RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:25:48 -0700<BR>
From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/2000 9:54 AM, Ethan Henry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Some things the Vilani did thousands of years before the Terrans:<BR>
[snip]<BR>
> - colonize several worlds via sublight sleeper ships, something the<BR>
> Terrans _never_ did<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the Terrans did have sleeper ships. Three of them were launched by<BR>
the European Space Agency in the mid-21st century--they ended up colonizing<BR>
the Island Cluster in the Great Rift. The Cluster is the setting for the<BR>
campaign in the Trillion Credit Squadron book.<BR>
- -- <BR>
                              Ken Hagler<BR>
<BR>
|          ICQ#: 34591293         |   For PGP key send mail with  |<BR>
|   http://www.orange-road.com/   |    subject "Send PGP Key".    |<BR>
|   It's like an irony of fate; Things never turn out as I wish   |<BR>
|   It's just like an irony of fate; It kills me --Mari Iijima    |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 12:26:17 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
> Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
> Hmmm..<BR>
> <BR>
> Depends on the group - I have had groups that never owned <BR>
> more then a 9mm<BR>
> autopistol, but the most memorable group had 'Groove' a BD <BR>
> clad marine with<BR>
> an 20mm RAM AutoGL. He accually had a clip of nukes for it (hard times<BR>
> campain).<BR>
<BR>
I generally run low combat campaigns, and most of my players prefer small pistols, if they carry anything at all.  The Marines usually carry something - heavy autopistol or revolver.  However, I usually keep the violence down (after all - modern weapons are *very* good at killing).<BR>
<BR>
Of course, my current OCC campaign has had a few *incidents.*<BR>
<BR>
Anyway - an offer to members of the TML who happen to reside in the St Louis, MO area:<BR>
<BR>
If any of you want a trip to the range, and an opportunity to fire some modern weapons (AR-15, AK, FAL), email me.  We can arrange an afternoon at one of the local MO state firing range - I'll supply weapons, ammo, hearing protection, and basic instruction.  Bring your sense of fun, responsibility, and desire to learn.<BR>
<BR>
We usually play Traveller Wed nights at Medieval Starship in O'Fallon, IL (hi, Jay).  (Not this Wed - I have an interview.)<BR>
<BR>
Visit one of the best game shops in the US and say 'Hi'.<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:42:19 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
>>3.08333 (still pretty pitiful).  Even using 2D-1, the body pistol<BR>
>>is mostly useful as a concealed weapon, or for someone with low Str<BR>
>>and/or high Dex.  It does give you first attack on an opponent<BR>
>>approaching from medium range (you might get lucky at medium range,<BR>
>>and you can get a shot off at 4 m before the other guy can use his<BR>
>>Baseball bat).<BR>
>When I say average damage, I mean statistically what the dice will roll.  On<BR>
>3D6, the highest probability roll is a 10, or 11<BR>
<BR>
	Statistically, the average result for 3D-8 (with a minimum of 1) is<BR>
	3.083.  The result with the highest probability (the mode) is 1 (37.5%<BR>
	of rolls).  The median (the point at which half of observations are<BR>
	higher and half are lower) is 2.5.  Choose your poison.<BR>
<BR>
>As for the Body pistol vs. bat.  You MIGHT hit at medium range.  If you do<BR>
>hit, and the statistical damage is done, you could find yourself in deep<BR>
>trouble.  The Mythical average man is 777 for phyical stats (Talking CT<BR>
>here). He can take two or 3 point with little more than a shrug. He is now<BR>
>really mad.  Provided you are also mythically average, if he connects with<BR>
>his baseball bat and does average damage, you are out.  The subsequent blows<BR>
>he delivers will be on your unconscious body.<BR>
<BR>
	I already agreed that the body pistol is a poor alternative to the club,<BR>
	but to be fair to the little thing: The guy comming at you from medium<BR>
	range can probably be shot at twice, once at medium range and once at<BR>
	short range.  If you happen to have low Str and/or high Dex, you have<BR>
	a better chance of hitting with the body pistol (I cannot remember the<BR>
	armour DMs, but I imagine that they do not favour the pop gun).  If you<BR>
	have low End, you have to worry about the End limit to HTH combat.  If<BR>
	you manage to do some damage to the club-armed guy charging at you, he<BR>
	may suffer DMs for low Str, may run out of End-limited attacks (if you<BR>
	are lucky), and IMTU may suffer initiative problems due to lowered Dex.<BR>
	You can always try Panic Fire (how lucky do you feel?) or firing from a<BR>
	position that is not immediately accessable (with a little planning :)).<BR>
	I still agree that a good club is usually better, but the body pistol<BR>
	is easier to hide, and is also popular with some very small aliens IMTU.<BR>
<BR>
>You will probably wake up in some hospital, after enduring a<BR>
>handgun-colonoscopy (or what ever the correct medical term is for having a<BR>
>handgun removed from such a place).<BR>
<BR>
	"Don't ask me how it got there doc, just take it out."<BR>
<BR>
>I never saw the point of the body pistol, except to kill pests or shoot<BR>
>cans.  Carrying a body pistol IMTU is the sign of an amateur.  But also<BR>
>common (how many people who carry guns, carry those little .25 cal mouse<BR>
>guns?  A lot, 'cause their small and light and they really don't every<BR>
>expect to use them).<BR>
<BR>
	They are great for threatening those who don't know any better.  :)<BR>
<BR>
>When NPCs IMTU pull out body pistols, that's usually when the PCs take out<BR>
>the 12mm Autos, shotguns and such:<BR>
>"Cute gun, will it get bigger when its older?"<BR>
>"This is an .88 magnum.  It shoots through schools"<BR>
>"No fair, your gun is bigger"<BR>
<BR>
	I love it when PCs do that.  Of course, I've seen PCs with good stats<BR>
	and decent armour treat an autopistol with the same distain.<BR>
<BR>
>Of course all this is subject to Heinlein's law "there is no such thing as a<BR>
>dangerous weapon.  There are only dangerous people."<BR>
<BR>
	"The Secret of Steel.  You know what it is, don't you boy?"<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:47:34<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Canon<BR>
<BR>
At 05:06 PM 6/26/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Enlighten me about Ground Forces. Status? etc.  GT: Star mercs seems to<BR>
>implay there is no Army to speak of, just the Imperial Marines.  I have<BR>
>trouble with this.  Marines are typically light forces.  They are meant to<BR>
>be easy to transport.  When it's time for serious ground combat, you send in<BR>
>the army, with their heavy armor, artillery and huge logitical train.<BR>
>Marines trained in special techniques like Zero-G would seem to be wasted in<BR>
>large scale ground combat.<BR>
<BR>
Ah.  You are going to like the book then.<BR>
<BR>
GT Ground Forces is listed as "In Production", meaning that they have my<BR>
final draft and are doing layout, artwork, and hiring ninjas to kill me<BR>
over spelling errors.  According to the website, it's still a third quarter<BR>
release, so we should be seeing it sometime in the next couple of months.<BR>
Loren can correct me if I'm wrong in any of the particulars.<BR>
<BR>
>Please nelighten me if I've got this wrong.  Maybe I'm just sensitive<BR>
>because I was a dumb Army leg.  As we referred to our MOS and branch<BR>
>insignia in the infantry "Idiot Sticks".<BR>
<BR>
I'm an old 11-B myself.  The Unified Armies of the Imperium are by far the<BR>
largest service, but are split into separate Armies for each subsector,<BR>
allowing each force to be tailored to specific defense needs and allowing a<BR>
much shorter command decision cycle.<BR>
<BR>
>Which brings up the question of prior service representation on the TML and<BR>
>Traveller in general.  What's the ratio of Army, Marine and other services<BR>
>on the TML.  How about the creators prior service, if any (Marc, Loren etc).<BR>
>Inquiring minds want to know.<BR>
><BR>
>Tod "Started off 11B and branched Infantry--that's how smart I am" Glenn<BR>
><BR>
>That's army infantry for those who didn't spend any time working for 'Uncle<BR>
>Sugar'.<BR>
<BR>
As I said, I'm ex-infantry, with a few bells and whistles.  One of the<BR>
biggest helps on the GF playtest was Christopher Thrash, who is a serving<BR>
Cavalry officer.  There are several veterans or serving members on the TML.<BR>
 I know Marc was in the Army, but I'm not sure what his MOS was.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:46:32 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: On Killing, etc<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
> Biologists call behavior which is viable in the long run an "evolutionarily<BR>
> stable strategy," or ESS. One clearly necessary condition for an ESS is that<BR>
> the strategy performs well against *itself*. You can make this statement<BR>
> rigorous by using the branch of mathematics called game theory if you really<BR>
> want to.<BR>
<BR>
And also a clearly necessary condition is that a strategy perform well <BR>
against very different strategies, which point will become important below...<BR>
<BR>
> It seems to me that the Marshall's<BR>
> "universal-innate-human-aversion-to-killing" is an example of an ESS, while<BR>
> the opposite is an unstable strategy, and thus would not survive anything<BR>
> past the short term. Because it is extremely likely that humans have evolved<BR>
> behavior which is an ESS, we probably have some innate aversion to killing<BR>
> each other.<BR>
<BR>
Larry Niven wrote an essay, the name of which escapes me, wherein he <BR>
asserts something along these lines:<BR>
<BR>
We're evolutionarily set up to fight-until-surrender, and that most species <BR>
on the planet have established surrender signals (wild canids, for example, <BR>
roll over and expose their throats to surrender). Humans are evolutionarily <BR>
prepared to attack until they see blood, but modern weaponry usually makes<BR>
that a mortal wound. (I don't know how well Niven researched this theory.)<BR>
<BR>
So I'd say that an "aversion to killing" is an ESS, but an "aversion to <BR>
fighting" isn't an ESS - it doesn't perform well against a player who is <BR>
willing to fight. So we shouldn't (according to evolutionary game theory) <BR>
have a universal innate aversion to fighting. And fighting with weapons <BR>
or martial arts training can all-to-easily lead to killing.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:53:03 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Rats<BR>
<BR>
GypsyComet writes:<BR>
>>A large rat might be 1 lb, though there may be exceptional cases.<BR>
>>I must admit that I tend to be skeptical about reports of 10 lb<BR>
>>rats, but I cannot dismiss them outright.  The ObTrav is, how<BR>
>>often will the PCs be given exagerated descriptions of local<BR>
>>wildlife?<BR>
>Depends on how many shots it took before they ran it off...<BR>
<BR>
	"Yeah, shot me a bush'opper once, hundred kilos if it were a<BR>
	gram.  Fired off twenny round, hit 'er least a duzzen time.<BR>
	Jus' made 'er mad, 'til 'Orace chase 'er off wi' the ayer-raff.<BR>
<BR>
>ONE pound? Heck, the local ROOF rats are bigger. I've never seen the big <BR>
>Norwegian Blacks that exceed cat-size,<BR>
<BR>
	Nor have I, nor have I seen a picture of a Norway rat in excess of<BR>
	a couple of pounds, nor a good reference about one.  I'm not saying<BR>
	that they don't exist, but I guess "I'm from Missouri."  (actually,<BR>
	I'm from Montreal, but some of us are skeptics too).<BR>
<BR>
	:)<BR>
<BR>
>but the rodentia line is versatile <BR>
>enough to produce the Capybara (sp?) which, IIRC, tops 50 pounds...<BR>
<BR>
	Capybaras do get big, but they are no closer to rats than humans are<BR>
	to Rhesus monkeys.  Again, I am not saying that you have not seen<BR>
	huge rats, but I have seen people mistake muskrat and even beaver for<BR>
	big rats.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:55:03<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
At 08:42 AM 6/27/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>As for the Body pistol vs. bat.  You MIGHT hit at medium range.  If you do<BR>
>hit, and the statistical damage is done, you could find yourself in deep<BR>
>trouble.  The Mythical average man is 777 for phyical stats (Talking CT<BR>
>here). He can take two or 3 point with little more than a shrug. He is now<BR>
>really mad.  Provided you are also mythically average, if he connects with<BR>
>his baseball bat and does average damage, you are out.  The subsequent blows<BR>
>he delivers will be on your unconscious body.<BR>
<BR>
<shameless plug><BR>
Under ACQ, you could spend AP to aim, increasing your chances of getting a<BR>
higher damage hit.  Making the task roll by five would double the damage,<BR>
by 9 triple it.<BR>
<BR>
So if you have the time to take careful aim, and roll well, you could<BR>
easily drop him with one shot.<BR>
</shameless plug><BR>
<BR>
>I never saw the point of the body pistol, except to kill pests or shoot<BR>
>cans.  Carrying a body pistol IMTU is the sign of an amateur.  But also<BR>
>common (how many people who carry guns, carry those little .25 cal mouse<BR>
>guns?  A lot, 'cause their small and light and they really don't every<BR>
>expect to use them).<BR>
<BR>
The point is that it is almost undetectable, so you take it places where<BR>
guns are not supposed to go.  Yes, it sucks.  But having a little gun beats<BR>
having no gun.<BR>
<BR>
>When NPCs IMTU pull out body pistols, that's usually when the PCs take out<BR>
>the 12mm Autos, shotguns and such:<BR>
<BR>
Then the NPCs were idiots.  I had some characters making a meet with an<BR>
underworld contact.  They had been told to come unarmed.  They met the<BR>
contact, how showed them that he was not carrying anything.  So one of the<BR>
characters pulls his pistol.  That's when the sniper got him.<BR>
<BR>
"Oh, I'm not armed, but my three associates are."<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:57:22 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm ... lets see.  There is a  party  kitty  (not  quite  up  to<BR>
Matrix proportions yet) but ...<BR>
<BR>
- - PC 1 never goes anywhere  without  her  M60  style  machinegun.<BR>
  When in her stateroom it hangs in pride of place  on  the  wall<BR>
  over her bed.  She's named her MG "Beth".  She also likes gauss<BR>
  rifles (with an underslung grenade launcher).  This player has<BR>
  seen Aliens too many times.<BR>
<BR>
- - PC 2 has a matching  pair  of  silver  revolvers  ...  and   an<BR>
  autoshotgun set to full auto (what a mess that makes!).<BR>
<BR>
- - PC 3 is from a low tech world and used  to  carry  a  flintlock<BR>
  pistol.  Then one day, when trying to capture some bad guys  on<BR>
  his own, he made the mistake of  firing  a  warning  shot  over<BR>
  their heads ... and was  promptly  mugged  while  he  tried  to<BR>
  reload.  The group have given  him  a  9mm  autopistol now.<BR>
<BR>
- - PC 4 prefers swords ... and  has  a  single  piece  (blade  and<BR>
  handle) sword, FF7 style, made from the superdense hull  of  an<BR>
  old ship.  When he has to use a gun  he  goes  with  the  gauss<BR>
  rifle with GL.<BR>
<BR>
- - PC 5 avoids combat where possible.  But when necessary  borrows<BR>
  from the party kitty ... usually one of the gauss rifles or  an<BR>
  ACR.<BR>
<BR>
- - PC 6 usually just goes with a gauss pistol.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and for some reason I can't  fathom,  they  all  like  remote<BR>
control toy cars loaded with C4!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:19:39 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
At 6:01 PM +1200 6/27/00, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
>On 26 Jun 00, at 19:51, David P. Summers wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>  > The problem is that if we can survive on Vland (even with<BR>
>  > food processing) then so can our bacteria (by definition<BR>
>  > there must by amino acids and oxygen, that alone is enough).<BR>
>  > Also, even if the Ancients sterilized the import humans<BR>
>  > (which isn't unreasonable), if we can survive on Vland<BR>
>  > (ie there are amino acids around for us to eat and oxygen to<BR>
>  > breath) then there will be bacteria to Vland that can infect us.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Its all a question of numbers. Your quite correct when you say there will be<BR>
>some bacteria on Vland that will be able to or evolve the abiltiy to infest<BR>
>humans. However this number will be a tiny and for all practical purposes<BR>
>they can be ignored.<BR>
<BR>
It won't be tiny.  If we can live off of the Vilani biosphere<BR>
(processing or no) then it is made up of the same basic<BR>
chemicals (amino acids, etc) that we are made of.   It also<BR>
has an oxygen atmosphere.  That means the differences that make<BR>
it difficult for humans won't be at the basic level of chemistry<BR>
where most bacteria operate.  That means there will be a whole<BR>
slew of organism that can live off of humans.<BR>
<BR>
What is more, regardless of numbers, those that are present<BR>
will be the ones that are found in food, human waste, etc.<BR>
providing the same vectors for infection that exist today.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:22:44 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
>David Summers wrote :-<BR>
><stuff I agree with up to a point snipped><BR>
><BR>
>What I should have said to make my point crystal clear :-<BR>
><BR>
>There's a *big* difference between colonisation and infection.<BR>
><BR>
>The microbes of Vland can and do colonise humans.<BR>
>Human gut and skin flora can and do colonise various niches on Vland.<BR>
>It's hard going, both ways - the presence of some common substrates<BR>
>makes it possible - it doesn't make the process easy.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
And why is it so hard.  Bacteria are the most numerous species<BR>
on Earth based on their ability to survive based on "some common<BR>
substrates".  Bacteria don't care about your genetic history,<BR>
as far as they are concerned you are big lump of hard to make<BR>
amino acids, etc. in a handy oxygen atmosphere.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:46:30 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
At 12:54 -0400 27/6/00, "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> wrote:<BR>
>And because alcohol is legal but Ecstasy isn't most people  think<BR>
>alcohol is safe and Ecstasy is not.  Ecstasy became illegal after<BR>
>a media frenzy about a teenage girl who died from a rare allergic<BR>
>reaction.<BR>
<BR>
I thought that it was already illegal and they made it a worse class <BR>
(ie higher penalties)?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:28:25 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
At 22:17 -0400 26/6/00, "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>I wonder if local culture effects perceptions on how<BR>
>many weapons a character need.  Do British or eastern US players feel that<BR>
>their characters are adequately armed with a few small arms?  My players are<BR>
>all western type barrel-suckers (gun enthusiasts).  If their characters use<BR>
>guns, then they tend to have a lot. One of my players accumulated enough<BR>
>weapons to arms a small mercenary unit, and lived in a warehouse, vault so<BR>
>he could store them all.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, well my Traveller Characters tend to be armed with the <BR>
auto-snub, usually with a few double size mags. The burst fire on <BR>
that is quite deadly in T4.<BR>
<BR>
I also have a habit of gauss weapons. But to answer your question, if <BR>
I have a long arm (like a rifle) I will tend to have a pistol too. If <BR>
I have a pistol/auto-snub, I may not go for a rifle.<BR>
<BR>
Dom (UK)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:25:12 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Canon<BR>
<BR>
At 20:25 -0400 26/6/00,  "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>Hmmm. Star Trek, brought to you by Hasbro.<BR>
<BR>
And AD&D and Star Wars....<BR>
<BR>
I wonder if this will impact the release of Dune?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:19:22 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Canon<BR>
<BR>
At 19:06 -0400 26/6/00, "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>LUG? Please enlighten me.<BR>
<BR>
Last Unicorn Games<BR>
<BR>
>And WOTC is now owned by Hasbro (they wanted those Pokemon BAD!)<BR>
<BR>
Gotta catch em all?<BR>
<BR>
<grin duck and run for jump><BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:16:10 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Possible martial arts variation within ACQ<BR>
<BR>
At 18:16 -0400 26/6/00,  "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>On ACQ, since I'm a CT Referee, I'm still playing with ACQ.  The concept<BR>
>looks great, but I want to see how this effects play.  My games, when they<BR>
>get violent, are fast and furious.  I love to look at the player and say<BR>
>"You are taking fire.  What do you do RIGHT NOW!"  I try to keep all combat<BR>
>so that it requires only a couple of rolls (to hit, damage and location<BR>
>using On Target).  I tend to gloss over details like action points to keep<BR>
>the action intense and the players off balance (they are becoming quite good<BR>
>at making rapid decisions).<BR>
<BR>
ACQ is effectively a bug fixed T4 combat system with Action points. <BR>
My personal preference for Traveller combat systems was T4.x (then in <BR>
descending order  MT - CT - TNE, jury out on GT).<BR>
<BR>
>Anyway, my overall impression  of the BTS stuff?  Highly recommended.  My<BR>
>wife is just starting out as a referee, and I have referred her to all the<BR>
>BITS books for background material (which means I really can't read most of<BR>
>it in detail--Yet). And considering the cost to buy, I can't think of any<BR>
>reason not to buy them all (and I did).<BR>
<BR>
I'm glad they're of use - we actually aimed them as being a referee's <BR>
toolkit, a source of ideas when you haven't a lot of time.<BR>
<BR>
>My highest praise?  I want to write for you guys.<BR>
<BR>
:-) The writer's guidelines are on the Archive page at http://www.bits.org,uk/<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS, CORE and their respective logos are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:10:34 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
At 18:16 -0400 26/6/00, "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:<BR>
>    I know it was CardSharks@ something, didn't know it was AOL, but it does<BR>
>make sense, most people from LUG use AOL for their public email.<BR>
<BR>
I think you'll find that the @aol.com comes from GDW. Loren has <BR>
GDWGAMES@aol.com...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:10:15<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
At 04:22 PM 6/26/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>What BS.  I'm sure the lowlife scum in the 'projects' all scrupulously<BR>
>follow these regs. Of course the government's objectives seem to be to keep<BR>
>us all at their mercy.  Thank you politicians.<BR>
<BR>
Tod?  I used to live in Section 8 housing.  Not everybody in the projects<BR>
are lowlife scum, and not everybody in a mansion is an angel of light.  We<BR>
accepted the rules because our alternative was living in a cardboard box.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:36:41 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
Dom wrote:<BR>
> <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> wrote:<BR>
> >And because alcohol is legal but Ecstasy isn't most people  think<BR>
> >alcohol is safe and Ecstasy is not.  Ecstasy became illegal after<BR>
> >a media frenzy about a teenage girl who died from a rare allergic<BR>
> >reaction.<BR>
> <BR>
> I thought that it was already illegal and they made it a worse class <BR>
> (ie higher penalties)?<BR>
<BR>
Not 100% sure ... I think it went from  a  misdomeaner  ("slapped<BR>
wrist" from policeman) to being classified as serious as cocaine.<BR>
(However, I should point  out  that  while  it  is  *safer*  than<BR>
alcohol in the short term, there is  a  question  mark  over  the<BR>
possible long term effects on serotonin production in the  brain.<BR>
Therefore I do *not*  recommend  it  as  a  safe  alternative  to<BR>
alcohol.)  But my point was that people preceive it as  dangerous<BR>
because of the Lea Betts case and yet  at  the  same  time  think<BR>
alcohol is safe.  And if it was right to ban (or  ban  'more')  E<BR>
because of what happened to Lea Betts then peanuts should also be<BR>
banned for the same reason (rare fatal allergic reactions).<BR>
<BR>
People's perception of risk does  not  always  match  the  actual<BR>
risk.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:04:13 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Not 100% sure ... I think it went from  a  misdomeaner  ("slapped<BR>
> wrist" from policeman) to being classified as serious as cocaine.<BR>
> (However, I should point  out  that  while  it  is  *safer*  than<BR>
> alcohol in the short term, there is  a  question  mark  over  the<BR>
> possible long term effects on serotonin production in the  brain.<BR>
> Therefore I do *not*  recommend  it  as  a  safe  alternative  to<BR>
> alcohol.) <BR>
<BR>
If you have ever been on anti-depressants, particularly<BR>
Prozac/Paxil/Zoloft/Effexor et al, and they helped you, do NOT take<BR>
ecstasy.  Especially do NOT take ecstasy if you are currently on these<BR>
drugs.  The antidepressants in question help regulate serotonin uptake--<BR>
ecstasy causes a serotonin "flood" in the brain and may cause further<BR>
damage to serotonin receptors that are already damaged in some depressed<BR>
people.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:05:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> It wouldn't surprise me, especially when  under  UK  law  you  do<BR>
> *not* have the right to defend yourself (except  when  threatened<BR>
> with *death* and you can't run away) or your property (ever).<BR>
><BR>
I've heard of a women in London being prosecuted for using mace on an<BR>
attacker.  Assault I think, but I can't attest to its veracity.<BR>
<BR>
Interestingly, In the US the is not 'back to the wall' requirements for use<BR>
of lethal force in self defense (although most liberal American are unaware<BR>
of this).  I don't recall the particular US Supreme court case just now, but<BR>
the majority opinion was written by no less than Oliver Wendell Holmes and<BR>
is well documented in the book "No Duty to Retreat".<BR>
<BR>
> Other fun perceptions:<BR>
> - Chance of death from flying: 1 in 10 million<BR>
> - Chance of death from taking Ecstasy: 1 in 10 million<BR>
> - Chance of death from bee/wasp/hornet/etc sting: 1 in 135,000<BR>
> - Chance of death whilst in police custody: 1 in 33,000<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I love those kind of statistics.  Does anyone realize just how<BR>
dangerous golfing, skiing or taking a bath is?<BR>
<BR>
> > ObTrav, IMTU, Regina Up Port is a rough place (at least that is<BR>
> > the common perception).  Just about everyone is armed.<BR>
> > Interestingly, when there is trouble, it is usually started by<BR>
> > offworlders.  The locals are as likely to 'take care of things'<BR>
> > as the PCs.<BR>
> <snip><BR>
><BR>
> In past campaigns I've always  played  Regina  as  civilised  and<BR>
> slightly boring.  But I think I might use this.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
Regina IS boring (and law level 7, IIRC).  The Starport is what's<BR>
interesting.  Think New York city vs upstate New York.  And I potray the<BR>
Starport denizens as having the 'New York' attitude.  See my notes on Regina<BR>
(Mostly non-canon, but I don't care.  There wasn't much in the way of canon<BR>
when I first built my Regina, all we had was CT supplement 3).  Anyway, look<BR>
at http://www.travellercentral.com .  Probaby 75% of all the games I've run<BR>
have taken place on Regina Up Port.  We tend to like depth rather than<BR>
breadth.  It's funny, but I've run games on Regina for so long, I feel<BR>
myself or any of my players know the starport as well as our own<BR>
neighborhoods.<BR>
<BR>
I actually considered doing a supplement on just Regina Up Port.  I'me do<BR>
non-canon, though, that it's hardly worth the effort.  Anyway, if you get<BR>
the chance, let me know what you think.<BR>
<BR>
"Regina, where the weak are killed and eaten"<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:16:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> 	Capybaras do get big, but they are no closer to rats than humans are<BR>
> 	to Rhesus monkeys.  Again, I am not saying that you have not seen<BR>
> 	huge rats, but I have seen people mistake muskrat and even<BR>
> beaver for<BR>
> 	big rats.<BR>
><BR>
> Peez<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
Soon after moving to Portland, OR I saw my first 'cat-sized' rat.  The<BR>
darned thing must have weighed 5 or 6 pounds. Silly me.  I'd never seen a<BR>
Nutria before.  Apparently, soon after WWII someone had the bright Idea to<BR>
bring them up here from the South and breed them for fur. (Who ever heard of<BR>
a nutria skin coat?)<BR>
<BR>
Which reminds me.  I need to post the detail of one of out favorite<BR>
Traveller animals, The short polled Nauga.  Naugahyde has to come from<BR>
somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2670<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2671</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 27 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2671<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
Classic Traveller on W23<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
Re: Re: Canon<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
Re: Medical query<BR>
RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Loren's Secret Conspiracy To Manipulate Traveller Canon<BR>
Vs: Maps Files<BR>
Re: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
Re: Battle Dress and Martial Arts (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: IHTFP<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:35:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> <shameless plug><BR>
> Under ACQ, you could spend AP to aim, increasing your chances of getting a<BR>
> higher damage hit.  Making the task roll by five would double the damage,<BR>
> by 9 triple it.<BR>
><BR>
> So if you have the time to take careful aim, and roll well, you could<BR>
> easily drop him with one shot.<BR>
> </shameless plug><BR>
<BR>
I bought ACQ, but have never used the task system (being a CT type).  I like<BR>
the concept, and intend to give ACQ a try.<BR>
<BR>
> The point is that it is almost undetectable, so you take it places where<BR>
> guns are not supposed to go.  Yes, it sucks.  But having a little<BR>
> gun beats<BR>
> having no gun.<BR>
<BR>
Sometimes.  It would depend on the situation.  And I don't think Marc et.<BR>
Al. ever imagined the downsizing that would occur in serious caliber<BR>
handguns.  Ever see a Semmerling?  .45acp manually operated pistol that will<BR>
fit in the palm of you hand.  Build it at Tech level 8 with composites and<BR>
ceramics, shoot light lexan bullets (variation of Thunderzap) at high<BR>
velocity.  Now you've got something.<BR>
><BR>
> >When NPCs IMTU pull out body pistols, that's usually when the<BR>
> PCs take out<BR>
> >the 12mm Autos, shotguns and such:<BR>
><BR>
> Then the NPCs were idiots.  I had some characters making a meet with an<BR>
<BR>
Criminals often are.  Remember, most criminal are rarely gun savvy.  To them<BR>
it is a tool, and they often buy the cheapest, nastiest gunk.  The important<BR>
thing is, its a gun "and when I have the magic gun, you must do as I say".<BR>
My PCs are very gun savvy, and frequently play former commandos and such.<BR>
They are into gun, and will spend lots of their hard earned pay to buy<BR>
really cool, exotic or powerful guns.  And will specifically tell me that<BR>
they are sighting in their newly purchased weapon (how many PCs really ever<BR>
do that?), and spend large amount of time and money practicing with their<BR>
weapon of choice (think touring the rough parts of town with Chuck Taylor<BR>
and Jeff Cooper)<BR>
<BR>
> underworld contact.  They had been told to come unarmed.  They met the<BR>
> contact, how showed them that he was not carrying anything.  So one of the<BR>
> characters pulls his pistol.  That's when the sniper got him.<BR>
><BR>
> "Oh, I'm not armed, but my three associates are."<BR>
<BR>
Aah, you don't know my players.  They have been trained well.<BR>
<BR>
"oh, would that be those three gentlemen bleeding over there? Our sniper set<BR>
up yesterday, and marked all the good shooting locations".<BR>
<BR>
But you're point is well taken.  My players are pretty good about when to<BR>
play nice, and when to get rough.  Usually, gunplay is a last resort.<BR>
<BR>
"Evil" Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:48:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Tod?  I used to live in Section 8 housing.  Not everybody in the projects<BR>
> are lowlife scum, and not everybody in a mansion is an angel of light.  We<BR>
> accepted the rules because our alternative was living in a cardboard box.<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I apologize.  I did not mean to infer that everyone in government housing is<BR>
lowlife scum.  What I meant was that the low life scum taking advantage of<BR>
government housing were not likely to be bothered by the rules, unlike<BR>
decent folks like Leonard and yourself.  Criminals by definition, do not<BR>
obey the law.  Why do politicians think that new laws that limit the right<BR>
of law abiding citizens are the answer?  It's like the whole<BR>
'zero-tolerance' thing.  It removes any discretion on the part of the<BR>
enforcers.<BR>
<BR>
I've spent a lot of time around cops and feds, and most of them are decent<BR>
folks who are perceptive enough to figure out what's going on and decide<BR>
when to bust balls and when to let things slide.  But administrators love<BR>
zero-tolerance because NO ONE HAS TO THINK.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, I'm getting off topic, and am trying to be good.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav, the widespread nature if the 3I requires broad discretion of the<BR>
local authorities, I think.  What works on Syleas may not be a good fit for<BR>
Mora.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:51:34 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/27/00 1:16 PM, webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Soon after moving to Portland, OR I saw my first 'cat-sized' rat.  The<BR>
> darned thing must have weighed 5 or 6 pounds. Silly me.  I'd never seen a<BR>
> Nutria before.  Apparently, soon after WWII someone had the bright Idea to<BR>
> bring them up here from the South and breed them for fur. (Who ever heard of<BR>
> a nutria skin coat?)<BR>
<BR>
Nutria sounded like such an odd name for a rodent, I had to go do some<BR>
reading. I found a great site that those folks wanting to insert real world<BR>
Terran lifeforms to your TU might like to browse. I'' just post the link to<BR>
the page on nutria, as the rest of the site can be accessed from there, just<BR>
remember that if you want to bookmark it, you should go to the main page.<BR>
<BR>
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/myocastor/m._coypus$media.htm<BR>
l<BR>
<BR>
BTW, any comments on that giant world map I posted? I am hoping my Aunt, who<BR>
has a very large printer, can run one off for me when it is finished.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:52:41 -0600<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
Subject: Classic Traveller on W23<BR>
<BR>
Gentles:<BR>
<BR>
I'm off to Dragon*Con, but I have just received the following news from the<BR>
W-23 manager:<BR>
<BR>
>I've gotten the first Traveller reprints in from Far Future Enterprises,<BR>
>Books 0-8, it will be going up for sale on W23 tomorrow. You can mention it<BR>
>in next week's JTAS & hopefully people will go for it. Reprints of the<BR>
>supplements and adventure books are due 'soon' but probably won't show up<BR>
>until late July.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman<BR>
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
     SJ Games<BR>
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>
     (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>
     (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:02:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
>>And WOTC is now owned by Hasbro (they wanted those Pokemon BAD!)<BR>
><BR>
>Gotta catch em all?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    There are 150 game companies or more you see, & you gotta catch them all<BR>
if you want to be a Game Master.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:09:49 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
>I think you'll find that the @aol.com comes from GDW. Loren has<BR>
>GDWGAMES@aol.com...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Dom, the funny thing is that most game designers I know use AOL for<BR>
public email.  Steve Long, Ross Issacson, Don Mappin, Marc Miller, Loren<BR>
Wiseman, though Doug "Pengiun Boy" Berry does not.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:08:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
I'm a retired U.S.Army Chief Warrant Officer. My enlisted MOS was 98J<BR>
(Electronic Warfare Operator), Warrant MOS was 352J (Emanations Analysis<BR>
Technician). BTW, just for fun, that was abbreviated to Eman Anal Tech......<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 10:47 AM<BR>
Subject: RE: Canon<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I'm an old 11-B myself.  The Unified Armies of the Imperium are by far the<BR>
> largest service, but are split into separate Armies for each subsector,<BR>
> allowing each force to be tailored to specific defense needs and allowing<BR>
a<BR>
> much shorter command decision cycle.<BR>
><BR>
> >Which brings up the question of prior service representation on the TML<BR>
and<BR>
> >Traveller in general.  What's the ratio of Army, Marine and other<BR>
services<BR>
> >on the TML.  How about the creators prior service, if any (Marc, Loren<BR>
etc).<BR>
> >Inquiring minds want to know.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Tod "Started off 11B and branched Infantry--that's how smart I am" Glenn<BR>
> ><BR>
> >That's army infantry for those who didn't spend any time working for<BR>
'Uncle<BR>
> >Sugar'.<BR>
><BR>
> As I said, I'm ex-infantry, with a few bells and whistles.  One of the<BR>
> biggest helps on the GF playtest was Christopher Thrash, who is a serving<BR>
> Cavalry officer.  There are several veterans or serving members on the<BR>
TML.<BR>
>  I know Marc was in the Army, but I'm not sure what his MOS was.<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:23:38 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Medical query<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman <GDWGAMES@aol.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
> What exactly is a "punctured eardrum" and why does it make one unfit for <BR>
> military service? One reason I have heard advanced is that it makes a gas <BR>
> mask useless, but I find this sets off my built-in doubt alarm.<BR>
<BR>
A punctured eardrum is just what it sounds like: a rupture in the<BR>
membrane separating the outer ear from the middle ear.<BR>
<BR>
The eardrum is the dividing line between the external and middle ears. The<BR>
external ear is formed by the auricle, also called the pinna, and the<BR>
external ear canal. The middle ear is the air-filled space behind the<BR>
eardrum that contains the three small bones for hearing, which are<BR>
known as the ossicles. The eardrum is an important barrier between the<BR>
environment and the middle ear.<BR>
<BR>
The eardrum, or tympanic membrane, is a three-layered structure. On its<BR>
outer layer is a very thin layer of skin. Its inner layer is a thin layer<BR>
of mucous membrane. The middle or fibrous layer is what provides most of<BR>
the eardrum strength and rigidity. It prevents air or water from hurting<BR>
the delicate membranes covering the oval and round window membranes. If<BR>
these window membranes rupture from excessive force, temporary or<BR>
permanent deafness or dizziness can result. The eardrum also protects<BR>
the middle ear against nonsterile material, like contaminated water.<BR>
<BR>
The 3 most common causes of tympanic rupture are: trauma, infection,<BR>
and tuberculosis. There is almost always an immediate decline in<BR>
the ability to hear on that side.  There may or may not be pain,<BR>
ringing in the ear, a bloody discharge, and/or loss of balance<BR>
(if there is flooding in the middle ear.)<BR>
<BR>
The standard downcheck for a perforated eardrum in the military is<BR>
the significant increased likelihood of major infection due to submersion<BR>
(a soldier/sailor never knows when he's going to have to dunk his head<BR>
under water in some nasty 3rd world disease-ridden rice paddy.)<BR>
<BR>
A perforated eardrum does *not* present a significant increased risk<BR>
for NBC exposure, given that modern U.S. DoD MOPP gear seals the<BR>
entire head, not just the face.<BR>
<BR>
(I speak from personal experience on the symptoms.  I blew my left<BR>
eardrum while SCUBA diving in the Bahamas in 1981.  It healed after<BR>
about 6 weeks and resulted in no premanent damage.)<BR>
<BR>
        - Mark C.<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com<BR>
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:23:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
	My characters usually have a generic large automatic pistol (or an<BR>
automatic Snub pistol), and a body pistol (though I usually convince an<BR>
equally gun-nut referee to allow me to cook up something more along the<BR>
lines of the COP .357 than that wheezy little 5mm round for the body pistol.<BR>
One time I was actually considering having my character hand load and insert<BR>
an accelerator rifle slug into the bottom of a 12mm hollow-base wadcutter,<BR>
but came to my senses.  [and if Ditzie wants to use that, she will have to<BR>
pay my Aslan merc a nice royalty])<BR>
	For more serious work, I tend to favor shotguns since they can be easily<BR>
shortened to something relatively concealable, and are the last firearms to<BR>
be banned by increasing law levels (that's why I avoid the otherwise<BR>
desirable laser weapons - the adventures I played in frequently took us away<BR>
from the comfortable, Portland Oregon-like starports).<BR>
	When things get really serious, I go for the belt-fed LMG.<BR>
<BR>
	As for how many guns I personally have...Let's see now....  Do I have to<BR>
count the .50 cal flintlock or my grandfather's shotgun? (unfortunately, it<BR>
is one of those old damascus-barreled affairs from the turn of the century<BR>
and cannot be used today for fear of bursting the barrel).  Let's just say<BR>
that the gun cabinet is full, and oddly enough, most of the designs are from<BR>
WWI or before.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training.  A bigger gun nut than<BR>
his characters and chafing under California's restrictive and frankly<BR>
asanine gun laws.  I envy you Tod!  :)<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:52:53 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
I've often wondered about this and the make-up of the Imperial Army.  IIRC,<BR>
canonical material implied that the IA was an aggregation of planetary<BR>
forces.  I also believe seeing a TNS article quoting an IA officer.<BR>
<BR>
- -Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
USN<BR>
1110 (Surface Warfare Officer-Line & Engineer)<BR>
"11 years and still confined to quarters"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:00:43 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
On 27 Jun 00, at 18:57, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Oh, and for some reason I can't  fathom,  they  all  like  remote<BR>
> control toy cars loaded with C4!<BR>
<BR>
Well, don't we all?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:07:51 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Loren's Secret Conspiracy To Manipulate Traveller Canon<BR>
<BR>
	This post is a few months old.  Apparently, I was outsmarted by Eudora Pro<BR>
and couldn't find the original to actually send it for the last three<BR>
months.  Apologies to any TMLers who don't recall this thread.<BR>
<BR>
In an email dated Mon, 27 Mar 2000, at 08:58 EST, Loren wrote:<BR>
><< Settlements for lawsuits, even (heck, *especially*) out of court<BR>
> settlements *often* have a clause stating that one or both parties are<BR>
> forbbiden to discuss *anything* about the settlement. Sometimes, even<BR>
> including the fact that there *was* a settlement.<BR>
> <BR>
> So, if someone involved with all that stuff sued, and GDW settled out<BR>
> of court, it's quite possible that Loren *couldn't* mention the suit or<BR>
> the out of court settlement. And of course, that settlement would<BR>
> include not disclosing the plans for the "future" that had reverted to<BR>
> the owner. >><BR>
><BR>
>No lawsuit involved. "I gave my word" is all there is to it.<BR>
><BR>
>LKW<BR>
<BR>
	Sure.  That's what Loren _wants_ you to think.<BR>
- --Laning ("Nascent Conspiracy Theorist") Polatty<BR>
<BR>
PS  In all seriousness, I commend you very sincerely Loren.  Thank you for<BR>
upholding a very important value, that seems all but forgotten in our<BR>
modern world.  Keeping one's word.  :-><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 01:22:34 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Maps Files<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 4:12 AM<BR>
Subject: Maps Files<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> As a separate question, do people prefer multiple pdf files or a single large (2-3 MB) file containing all sectors?  Since I currently have 73 different sectors, I suspect the second, but...<BR>
<BR>
I'd prefer to have them separate, so I can dowbload each sector when needed.<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:35:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Burning Ships in a Vacuum<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>>> A fire, especially a *metal* fire being fed by an oxygen jet looks more<BR>
>>>> like a magnesium flare than like any "normal" sort of fire. Watch<BR>
>>>> someone using a cutting torch sometime. That's how such devices work,<BR>
>>>> they use a regular oxy-acetylene flame to get the metal hot enough to<BR>
>>>> ignite, then you hit the "trigger" and feed it a jet of pure oxygen.<BR>
>>>> The jet *burns* the metal out of the way.<BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>> Blinding white light, and if the metal is iron or steel, *huge* numbers<BR>
>>>> of sparks.<BR>
>>>><BR>
>>> Well I don't know, a flare coming out of a ship should show up nicely on<BR>
>>> sensors result "Target that explosion".<BR>
>><BR>
>> Do recall the ranges involved. You *can't* target that precisely due to<BR>
>> speed of light lag.<BR>
>><BR>
>> At least not unless the ship is unable to accelerate. In which case<BR>
>> it's pretty much "dead meat" anyway.<BR>
><BR>
> Well the recent line on PD weapons implies the weapons are that accurate,<BR>
> being able to hit hundreds of missiles at multi thousand k ranges.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, and in space combat, those are *point blank* ranges. Pretty much<BR>
equivalent to the sort of range a Phalanx "R2-D2" gun engages at.<BR>
<BR>
> Not IMTU however.<BR>
<BR>
It's your universe, but just keep in mnd that you are denying<BR>
capabilities that we could have *right now* if we had spaceships and<BR>
the sort of lasers available in Traveller. That is, *current* sensor<BR>
and tracking/aiming technology is up to the job. <BR>
<BR>
> So there goes the hollywood combat scenes!<BR>
<BR>
Given that they rely on ships being in *visual* range of ech other,<BR>
definitely. In space combat, being able to *see* the other ships is<BR>
about like being able to *touch* the enemy in modern infantry combat.<BR>
It may happen, but it's to be avoided if at all possible. The<BR>
exceptions will either be "commando raid" equivalents, or damn<BR>
desperate situations.<BR>
<BR>
Also, given the typical velocities, *keeping* a pair of ships in visual<BR>
range of each other would require mutual co-operation, or that one of<BR>
the ships be unable to manuever (*choosing* not to manuever counts as<BR>
"co-operation" :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:44:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress and Martial Arts (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I suppose the first question becomes, who do you believe about the<BR>
> flexibility and weight of heavy (medieval) armor? Some say you couldn't<BR>
> stand up without a crane, others that you could swim in late period plate.<BR>
<BR>
The former are *nuts*. With the exception of some late period jousting<BR>
armor (not intended for *real* combat) plate armor was *less* of a<BR>
hassle to wear than a field pack. <BR>
<BR>
The jousting armor was essentially an armored "control station" for the<BR>
horse, and *did* require a small crane! <BR>
<BR>
But stuff intended for use in battle was far different. As surviving<BR>
examples make quite clear.<BR>
<BR>
The real problem was the padding under it. Between that and the<BR>
"shell", you were wearing a personal oven... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:49:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I am reminded of Jeff Coopers coment on the .25acp (appropriately body<BR>
> pistol like)<BR>
><BR>
> "Carry it if it makes you feel better, but don't load it.  If you load it,<BR>
> you might shoot at someone.  If you hit them, they will become very angry<BR>
> and do you serious bodily damage".<BR>
<BR>
I've heard of a case of someone (a cop?) getting shot with one, and it<BR>
taking them 20 minutes to find the bullet (it'd lodged between his coat<BR>
and his sweater!). <BR>
<BR>
And another where someone *emptied* a .25 Colt into the back of the<BR>
head of someone stopped at a traffic light. He didn't realize he'd been<BR>
shot until he reached back to investigate the "headache" and his hand<BR>
came back bloody!<BR>
<BR>
> These military types usually are pretty heavily armed, although I do tend to<BR>
> discourage really destructive of high tech weapons.  IMTU, privately owned<BR>
> battledress and plasma/fusion guns are very rare.  Old fashion slug throwers<BR>
> up to Gauss weapons is the norm, although curiously, laser weapons rarely<BR>
> seem to be chosen by the players.<BR>
<BR>
*Useful* laser weapons have that "slight disadvantage" of the beam path<BR>
being quite visible in normal air... makes them a poor choice for<BR>
shooting from concealment. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> Of course we have others who not so equipped.<BR>
><BR>
> "What's that metal looking think on your belt"<BR>
> "It's a gun"<BR>
> "Oh yes, I've seen pictures.  It's not, umm..., going to shoot anyone is<BR>
> it?"<BR>
> "Not on accident"<BR>
><BR>
> Of course these types invariable have something like, oh, computer-27<BR>
> "you may shoot me, but I have just altered your computer files. I suggest<BR>
> you get out of here before the police arrive.  I'm not sure how they'll<BR>
> react to finding Roscoe 'the cowardly, child-molesting cop-killer' O'Brien"<BR>
> in their police station.<BR>
<BR>
*Never* piss off a "nerd". He can come up with ways of making your life<BR>
hell that you couldn't begin to *imagine*...<BR>
<BR>
Which reminds me. There's a *nasty* little trick from a book called<BR>
"Getting Even" that would translate well to most Traveller societies. <BR>
<BR>
One day the victim finds a plain card with a number on it someplace<BR>
moderately private. Maybe in his desk drawer, his locker, or in his<BR>
car. All it has on it is a number. Say "30".<BR>
<BR>
The next day, he finds another. Not necessarily in the same place. Only<BR>
this one says "29". And the day after the card says "28". Etc.<BR>
<BR>
What sort of shape do you expect this guy will be in by "1"? <eg><BR>
<BR>
You don't even have to *do* anything to him. It's the *anticipation*<BR>
that will get to him.<BR>
<BR>
This would be an interesting trick for the GM to play on a paranoid<BR>
player. Or for one player to pull on another. Just be sure that you<BR>
have plausible methods of getting the cards into place.<BR>
<BR>
Extra points if you can figure out a *safe* way to have one of them<BR>
found on his pillow when he wakes up. More points if the number is<BR>
really low. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:06:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>>You don't know some of the rats I see coming off the River. (I'm in Co-op<BR>
>>>City myself.)<BR>
>>>Size of small dogs some of them.<BR>
>>I've seen a few large rats myself. You see, I used to have to walk home<BR>
>>late at night past the grain loading docks on the river. Lots of *big*<BR>
>>rats there. You mind your own business and don't crowd them, and<BR>
>>they'll not bother you.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
><BR>
>         A large rat might be 1 lb, though there may be exceptional cases.<BR>
>         I must admit that I tend to be skeptical about reports of 10 lb<BR>
>         rats, but I cannot dismiss them outright.  The ObTrav is, how<BR>
>         often will the PCs be given exagerated descriptions of local<BR>
>         wildlife?<BR>
<BR>
I've seen rats larger than the smaller cats and dogs I've encountered.<BR>
10 lbs, no. 2 lbs? I wouldn't be surprised.<BR>
<BR>
Have you seen the ad with that "Australian" guy where some large<BR>
critter startles a tourist?<BR>
<BR>
Tourist: "Did you see the size of that thing?!"<BR>
 Aussie: "They're kinda cute when they're babies..."<BR>
<BR>
I don't know *what* kind of critter, because so far I haven't turned<BR>
back towards the set until the punchline...<BR>
<BR>
A related ObTrav: How often will the PCs *think* the descriptions are<BR>
exaggerated, only to find out that the locals were actually<BR>
*downplaying* them? <eg><BR>
<BR>
Say a warning "Be careful, the fish get kinda big out there", followed<BR>
by the players landing on a small island (complete with some vegetation)<BR>
for a break, and starting a fire to cook some fish or some such, and<BR>
*waking up* the huge "fish" on whose back they've landed?<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I know that sort of story goes clear back to the Sinbad the Sailor<BR>
stories (and probably even farther). But it *could* happen given the<BR>
right sort of eco-system. :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:16:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote,<BR>
>>I've seen a few large rats myself. You see, I used to have to walk home<BR>
> late at night past the grain loading docks on the river. Lots of *big*<BR>
> rats there. You mind your own business and don't crowd them, and<BR>
> they'll not bother you.<<BR>
><BR>
> Yeah, don't "crowd" them. In NYC, they claim territory.<BR>
><BR>
>>If they're *that* big, I'll use a shotgun, thank you very much. Or<BR>
> maybe the SKS with some of the Russian steel-core ammo. :-)<<BR>
><BR>
> Good luck man. I'll back you up if I can have a flame-thrower myself.<BR>
> Otherwise...<BR>
<BR>
I was referring to the gun-toting roaches. And frankly, I think a tank<BR>
of liquid nitrogen with a spray hose might be more effective, and a lot<BR>
safer...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:20:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I never saw the point of the body pistol, except to kill pests or shoot<BR>
> cans.  Carrying a body pistol IMTU is the sign of an amateur.  But also<BR>
> common (how many people who carry guns, carry those little .25 cal mouse<BR>
> guns?  A lot, 'cause their small and light and they really don't every<BR>
> expect to use them).<BR>
><BR>
> When NPCs IMTU pull out body pistols, that's usually when the PCs take out<BR>
> the 12mm Autos, shotguns and such:<BR>
><BR>
> "Cute gun, will it get bigger when its older?"<BR>
> "This is an .88 magnum.  It shoots through schools"<BR>
> "No fair, your gun is bigger"<BR>
><BR>
> Of course all this is subject to Heinlein's law "there is no such thing as a<BR>
> dangerous weapon.  There are only dangerous people."<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, and a "dangerous person" will likely have you in a comealong hold<BR>
with one hand and their "ineffective" body pistol shoved halfway up one<BR>
of your nostrils before you get a chance to draw. <BR>
<BR>
I think even a body pistol will do more than enough damage in *that*<BR>
situation. <BR>
<BR>
Hmmm. It'd probably penetrate from the sinuses into the skull easily<BR>
enough. I wonder how many times it'd bounce off the inside of the<BR>
skull? Yecch!<BR>
<BR>
Cause of death: fatal nosebleed<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:26:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: IHTFP<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Which brings up the question of prior service representation on the TML and<BR>
>>  Traveller in general.  What's the ratio of Army, Marine and other services<BR>
>>  on the TML.  How about the creators prior service, if any (Marc, Loren <BR>
> etc).<BR>
>>  Inquiring minds want to know.<BR>
><BR>
> Marc had an ADA platoon in Vietnam, and retired as a captain . . . or major, <BR>
> I'm not sure. Rich Banner was a sgt in Korea with an MOS that kept him out <BR>
> of Vietnam. Frank and I were never in (although I have been shot at -- does <BR>
> that count?).<BR>
<BR>
I'm 4-F, and I've never been shot *at*. I've had a loaded gun pointed<BR>
at me and the trigger pulled (on an empty chamber, neither of us n\knew<BR>
it was loaded until he ejected the clip, and which point I was *very*<BR>
unhappy with him! (as opposed to being moderately unhappy at having the<BR>
gun pointed at me). <BR>
<BR>
I've also been a bystander at a "shooting". Late at night, on the way<BR>
to an all night convenience store. I'm halfway across a street when I<BR>
hear shots. I jumped about 3 feet straight up and did a 360 degree<BR>
search looking for the source. Alll I see is an older guy standing on<BR>
his front lawn looking at the house across the street.  So I shrug,<BR>
walk the remaining block to the store and head back to find *5* police<BR>
cars. Seems the old guy had been POed at the folks across the street<BR>
and emptied a pistol into their front door. <BR>
<BR>
Personally, I'm actually rather *glad* he had the pistol, as in many<BR>
cases of that sort of "upset" the perp will do something like set<BR>
*fire* to the house... <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2671<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2672</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 27 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2672<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Medical query<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re:  not so small arms<BR>
Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
RE: Possible martial arts variation within ACQ<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Battle Dress Martial Arts Combat league<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
rats<BR>
Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:44:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At one time I lived on the corner of Alberta and 33rd...Not a nice<BR>
> place either.<BR>
<BR>
Back when we lived on 24th & Alberta, we didn't get a lot of trouble.<BR>
Probably because the house was my gunsmith friend's and the locals had<BR>
seen us moving in *armloads* of rifles. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Many years later (5-10) someone *did* try to burglarize the place. They<BR>
got suprised by him and a friend returning from an SCA event. First he<BR>
knew was when he heard the friend (who'd gone upstairs) yell and then<BR>
fall to the floor (he'd been clubbed with a rifle butt). <BR>
<BR>
He grabbed the nearest weapon (a Japenese sword hung on the wall) and<BR>
badly wounded one of the burglars as they made their escape. <BR>
<BR>
They only got away with two pistils, neither functional. In fact he<BR>
kind of hoped they'd be *dumb* enough to try firing the automatic, as<BR>
he hadn't replaced the slide retainer pin yet...<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, the rifles they tried to steal had the bolts removed and<BR>
sitting on the table next to them. They hadn't touched the bolts. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:32:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Medical query<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 27 Jun 00, at 8:41, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> I have a question for Robert O'Connor, TML's resident medico:<BR>
><BR>
>> What exactly is a "punctured eardrum" and why does it make one unfit for<BR>
>> military service? One reason I have heard advanced is that it makes a gas <BR>
>> mask useless, but I find this sets off my built-in doubt alarm.<BR>
><BR>
> Not sure, but I think the most obvious would be the loss of hearing on one <BR>
> side (plus it increases the risk of ear infections and I believe it effects <BR>
> balance).<BR>
<BR>
I had *both* eardrums *deliberately* "punctured". They installed some<BR>
very tiny tubes to allow drainage of an infection and other "gunk". <BR>
<BR>
My balance wasn't affected. What *was* affected was my ability to swim<BR>
and bathe. I could *not* get water into my ears. I made the mistake of<BR>
ducking my head underwater *once*. The pain cured me of *that* in a hurry.<BR>
<BR>
True, an eardrum punctured in the more usual ways will likely cause<BR>
more problems than mine did. But I expect that even in the Army,<BR>
inability to get water in your ears is going to be a problem.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:36:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/27/00 7:32 AM, Ian Ferguson at ian@vax2.concordia.ca wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> You can have some fun with PCs by having locals tell the PCs that<BR>
>> an area is "safe" because the locals think of it as safe relative<BR>
>> to their own experience.  The PCs might think otherwise.  Those of<BR>
>> us who have never heard a gunshot in their neighbourhood no doubt<BR>
>> have a different perception of "safe" than some others.<BR>
> <BR>
> North east Portland is an interesting area.  I worked at a lab that was<BR>
> located on Weidler and Russell  (I bet Leonard knows where this is).<BR>
<BR>
I can picture the neighborhood.<BR>
<BR>
> Sometime at night, when we would go out into the parking lot and hear the<BR>
> crackle of gunfire.  Very different from the suburban community that I live<BR>
> in (Beaverton) where neighbors have been know to pay a visit if you miss<BR>
> mowing you lawn two weeks in a row.  I could mow my law, but I'm sure my cat<BR>
> would miss the prime hunting ground.<BR>
<BR>
I used to live on Monroe (a few blocks south of Fremont), just off of<BR>
Union (which is now MLK Blvd) back in the mid 70s. That's where I got<BR>
jumped twice. Not much gunfire back then. A friend got raped though.<BR>
<BR>
Later I lived near 24th and Alberta. Much better neighborhood. <BR>
<BR>
More recently, I lived on Alberta, just off MLK, which is where I heard<BR>
all the shots, and now live near 60th & Prescott. Again, a *much*<BR>
better neighborhood. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:54:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Viilani, Near C Rocks, and Bioweapons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com> wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> The Vilani were acknowledged to be hundreds (Maybe as much as as thousands)<BR>
>> years behind the Solomani as far as medical technology goes. <BR>
><BR>
> Hm. Well, again, there should be a distinction made between 3I era <BR>
> Vilani and the Vilani of the First Imperium and earlier.<BR>
><BR>
> Some things the Vilani did thousands of years before the Terrans:<BR>
><BR>
>  - invent electricity, computers and just about everything else under <BR>
>    the Sun<BR>
>  - colonize several worlds via sublight sleeper ships, something the<BR>
>    Terrans _never_ did<BR>
<BR>
Wrong. That's how the Island Cluster got settled. And maybe the Sworld<BR>
Worlds (or I may have them backwards).<BR>
<BR>
Terrans not only *did* it, they sent colony missions hundreds of<BR>
parsecs away *on purpose*.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:42:53 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav, IMTU, Regina Up Port is a rough place (at least that is the common<BR>
> perception).  Just about everyone is armed.  Interestingly, when there is<BR>
> trouble, it is usually started by offworlders.  The locals are as likely to<BR>
> 'take care of things' as the PCs.<BR>
><BR>
> Sure, there are a lot of murders (compared with civilized world like<BR>
> Rhylanor), but most of these are what the locals refer to as a 'Regina<BR>
> suicide'.  This is death caused by stupidity or "he had it coming", and has<BR>
> become part of the local culture.<BR>
><BR>
> example:  Two cops find the body of a known criminal still clutching his<BR>
> body pistol.  Witnesses describe the scene as a mugging gone wrong.<BR>
> "Looks like a Regina suicide"<BR>
> "Yup"<BR>
<BR>
"Aggravated stupidity".<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:39:53 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
At 04:15 PM 6/26/00 , you wrote:<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: not so small arms<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
>Actually, MBA associated also produced a 12mm version that was legal.  The<BR>
>problem was the gun had no accuracy at long range, and no hitting power at<BR>
>short range. And the ammo was not cheap.  The gun buying public, not GCA,<BR>
>killed the gyrojet.  10 or 15 years ago you could buy a gyrojet cheap<BR>
>through the Shotgun News.  Now they're very expensive collectors items, gone<BR>
>the way of the Dardik and the Colt2000.<BR>
><BR>
>Cool idea, though, a doubtless the inspiration for the accelerator rifle.<BR>
>As I recall, Niven and Pournelle were quite taken with the idea.<BR>
><BR>
	As I remember it, just about everyone who John Campbell was publishing was<BR>
enamored of the gyrojet.  Yes, Niven and Pournelle very notably so.  I<BR>
never much sympathized with the fascination, and agreed more with the<BR>
gun-buying public you referred to, as well as your assessment of its<BR>
shortcomings.  Sometimes, I am so out of step with my fellow gearheads,<BR>
sigh.  Everyone else seems to think it's a cool idea but me.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
>With regard to the air gun mentioned above.  Most people are unaware of<BR>
>their potential.  The Austrian army deployed a big bore air gun (.69 cal<BR>
>IIRC) during the Napoleonic wars.  It was rifles and held 15 rounds of lead<BR>
>ball.  I could be fire a quickly as an manually operated rifle of today, and<BR>
>could kill a man at 150 yards.  Compared with the muskets in common use, it<BR>
>was phenomenally advanced and lethal (and expensive to produce).<BR>
><BR>
	It was a bleeping amazingly effective weapon!  One of the great<BR>
"tragedies" that it didn't win wider acceptance and interest in improved<BR>
versions.  Which one could argue would have led to increased death rates<BR>
for the poor draftees stuck doing the fighting, so not such a tragedy.  But<BR>
still.  Now that's a weapon that appeals to my gearheadedness.  Austrians,<BR>
of all people.  One would have expected it from Napoleon or the Brits.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>ObTrav I once ran a game on a planet with a tainted atmosphere--tainted by<BR>
>combustible gasses.  Fire arms were verbotten.  Who wants to shoot and set<BR>
>off a 10,000 cubic meter pocket of methane?  Build an air rifle at TL 7 of<BR>
>say .50 caliber using tanks at 3,000 psi.  Use a .357 jacketed bullet in a<BR>
>plastic sabot (black powder shooters use these) and you've really got<BR>
>something.  Not nearly as load as a firearm (but quite loud, ever heard an<BR>
>air-wrench).<BR>
><BR>
>Tod<BR>
><BR>
	That's a pretty cool response to a pretty interesting situation.  Does<BR>
that mean the players gave you fits with their resourcefulness at causing<BR>
mayhem?<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:08:02 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
Back when I was running campaigns, my party generally was only<BR>
lightly armed by comparison to the "typical" RPG story.  Not that<BR>
they generally needed more; I tended to run campaigns where you<BR>
would do far better to _think_ your way out of a jam instead of<BR>
blasting - and my interpretation of law level was more than just<BR>
a specification of what the books said you could carry around:<BR>
the higher the law level, the more likely it was that the police<BR>
would be nosy (i.e., lowered threshold for Probable Cause); at a<BR>
lower law level, the cops might not give a damn, but if you tick<BR>
off a local, well, just remember that he can carry anything you<BR>
can - and he's likely had more opportunity for practice (not<BR>
spending large chunks of time in a starship).<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:08:53 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: healyzh@aracnet.com<BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
> >With regard to the air gun mentioned above.  Most people are unaware of<BR>
> >their potential.  The Austrian army deployed a big bore air gun (.69 cal<BR>
> >IIRC) during the Napoleonic wars.  It was rifles and held 15 rounds of lead<BR>
> >ball.  I could be fire a quickly as an manually operated rifle of today, and<BR>
> >could kill a man at 150 yards.  Compared with the muskets in common use, it<BR>
> >was phenomenally advanced and lethal (and expensive to produce).<BR>
> ><BR>
> 	It was a bleeping amazingly effective weapon!  One of the great<BR>
> "tragedies" that it didn't win wider acceptance and interest in improved<BR>
> versions.  Which one could argue would have led to increased death rates<BR>
> for the poor draftees stuck doing the fighting, so not such a tragedy.  But<BR>
> still.  Now that's a weapon that appeals to my gearheadedness.  Austrians,<BR>
> of all people.  One would have expected it from Napoleon or the Brits.<BR>
<BR>
Actually this sounds a lot like a gun that the Lewis & Clark expedition took<BR>
with them....  I remember seeing one somewhere, probably at the Fort Clatsup<BR>
Museum.<BR>
<BR>
			Zane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:09:46 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
<BR>
>> Englnad is catching up with the US.  And in the US, home<BR>
>> invasions are rare compared with the UK.<BR>
><BR>
>It wouldn't surprise me, especially when  under  UK  law <BR>
>you  do *not* have the right to defend yourself (except  <BR>
>when  threatened with *death* and you can't run away) or<BR>
>your property (ever).<BR>
<BR>
Therefore in England you must be sure to kill your home<BR>
invader inside your house and provide his corpse with<BR>
weapons if he was not thoughtful enough to do so.  I think<BR>
that would make me _less_ inclined to try a home invasion.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:29:52 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
I'm not surprised..the general level of intelligence of people in that area<BR>
left much to be desired..Ever notice how people going down alberta would<BR>
miss the turn onto 33rd and plow into the rocky embankment?  :)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 6:44 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > At one time I lived on the corner of Alberta and 33rd...Not a nice<BR>
> > place either.<BR>
><BR>
> Back when we lived on 24th & Alberta, we didn't get a lot of trouble.<BR>
> Probably because the house was my gunsmith friend's and the locals had<BR>
> seen us moving in *armloads* of rifles. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Many years later (5-10) someone *did* try to burglarize the place. They<BR>
> got suprised by him and a friend returning from an SCA event. First he<BR>
> knew was when he heard the friend (who'd gone upstairs) yell and then<BR>
> fall to the floor (he'd been clubbed with a rifle butt).<BR>
><BR>
> He grabbed the nearest weapon (a Japenese sword hung on the wall) and<BR>
> badly wounded one of the burglars as they made their escape.<BR>
><BR>
> They only got away with two pistils, neither functional. In fact he<BR>
> kind of hoped they'd be *dumb* enough to try firing the automatic, as<BR>
> he hadn't replaced the slide retainer pin yet...<BR>
><BR>
> Oh yeah, the rifles they tried to steal had the bolts removed and<BR>
> sitting on the table next to them. They hadn't touched the bolts.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:55:51 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
At 16:16 -0400 27/6/00, "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> wrote:<BR>
>People's perception of risk does  not  always  match  the  actual<BR>
>risk.<BR>
<BR>
True - I used to work in the nuclear industry so I know about this one :-/<BR>
<BR>
BTW are you going to be a GamesFest 2k this weekend?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:53:52 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Possible martial arts variation within ACQ<BR>
<BR>
At 16:16 -0400 27/6/00, I wrote:<BR>
>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:16:10 +0100<BR>
>From:<BR>
>Subject:<BR>
><BR>
>At 18:16 -0400 26/6/00,  "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >My highest praise?  I want to write for you guys.<BR>
><BR>
>:-) The writer's guidelines are on the Archive page at http://www.bits.org,uk/<BR>
<BR>
Or rather http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
Dom <oops!><BR>
<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS, CORE and their respective logos are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:51:42 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
At 16:16 -0400 27/6/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
><shameless plug><BR>
>Under ACQ, you could spend AP to aim, increasing your chances of getting a<BR>
>higher damage hit.  Making the task roll by five would double the damage,<BR>
>by 9 triple it.<BR>
><BR>
>So if you have the time to take careful aim, and roll well, you could<BR>
>easily drop him with one shot.<BR>
></shameless plug><BR>
<BR>
<gratuitous expansion to the plug><BR>
Gee Doug, did you know you can get ACQ (At Close Quarters), and other <BR>
fine publications by BITS from mail order sources such as Steve <BR>
Jackson Games Warehouse 23 (http://www.warehouse23.com/) and FLGS in <BR>
the UK like Leisure Games and Best Books & Games? And that it was <BR>
only $8 USD or 5 GBP last time I checked?<BR>
</gratuitous expansion to the plug><BR>
<BR>
Dom ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:30:40 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 3:39 PM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> <BR>
>> ObTrav I once ran a game on a planet with a tainted atmosphere--tainted by<BR>
>> combustible gasses.  Fire arms were verbotten.  Who wants to shoot and set<BR>
>> off a 10,000 cubic meter pocket of methane?  Build an air rifle at TL 7 of<BR>
>> say .50 caliber using tanks at 3,000 psi.  Use a .357 jacketed bullet in a<BR>
>> plastic sabot (black powder shooters use these) and you've really got<BR>
>> something.  Not nearly as load as a firearm (but quite loud, ever heard an<BR>
>> air-wrench).<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Tod<BR>
>> <BR>
> That's a pretty cool response to a pretty interesting situation.  Does<BR>
> that mean the players gave you fits with their resourcefulness at causing<BR>
> mayhem?<BR>
> <BR>
> --Laning<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I encourage my players to be resourceful. I have yet to meet the player who<BR>
can disrupt my games with their cleverness.  Having run games continuously<BR>
for the last 20 years, I find I have to tone things down for new players.<BR>
You are certainly invited to read some of our narratives and decide for<BR>
yourself.  See http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
There is a lot of problem solving in my games, and a love the challenge of a<BR>
really sharp player.  Mind you, I don't run those GM vs. Player games.  But<BR>
building an exciting and cerebral story is loads of fun.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "relishing his evil reputation" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:36:09 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 4:08 PM, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Back when I was running campaigns, my party generally was only<BR>
> lightly armed by comparison to the "typical" RPG story.  Not that<BR>
> they generally needed more; I tended to run campaigns where you<BR>
> would do far better to _think_ your way out of a jam instead of<BR>
> blasting - and my interpretation of law level was more than just<BR>
> a specification of what the books said you could carry around:<BR>
> the higher the law level, the more likely it was that the police<BR>
> would be nosy (i.e., lowered threshold for Probable Cause); at a<BR>
> lower law level, the cops might not give a damn, but if you tick<BR>
> off a local, well, just remember that he can carry anything you<BR>
> can - and he's likely had more opportunity for practice (not<BR>
> spending large chunks of time in a starship).<BR>
> --<BR>
> Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Actually, most cops I've met don't really practice much.  Typically, the<BR>
shoot for qualification1,2 or 4 times a year.  the big advantage of being a<BR>
cop in such a situation is that you are part of a VERY big gang.  And<BR>
everyone has guns.<BR>
<BR>
I too treat law level as the likelihood of getting getting checked out by<BR>
the local Gendarmes.  I believe this is mentioned in the LBBs.  How else to<BR>
explain law levels over 8.  I treat it as roll 2 die over the local law<BR>
level to avoid being questioned by the local constabulary.  On some planets,<BR>
you WILL be stopped regardless ("papers please").<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:42:17 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 4:08 PM, healyzh@aracnet.com at healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>> With regard to the air gun mentioned above.  Most people are unaware of<BR>
>>> their potential.  The Austrian army deployed a big bore air gun (.69 cal<BR>
>>> IIRC) during the Napoleonic wars.  It was rifles and held 15 rounds of lead<BR>
>>> ball.  I could be fire a quickly as an manually operated rifle of today, and<BR>
>>> could kill a man at 150 yards.  Compared with the muskets in common use, it<BR>
>>> was phenomenally advanced and lethal (and expensive to produce).<BR>
>>> <BR>
>> It was a bleeping amazingly effective weapon!  One of the great<BR>
>> "tragedies" that it didn't win wider acceptance and interest in improved<BR>
>> versions.  Which one could argue would have led to increased death rates<BR>
>> for the poor draftees stuck doing the fighting, so not such a tragedy.  But<BR>
>> still.  Now that's a weapon that appeals to my gearheadedness.  Austrians,<BR>
>> of all people.  One would have expected it from Napoleon or the Brits.<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually this sounds a lot like a gun that the Lewis & Clark expedition took<BR>
> with them....  I remember seeing one somewhere, probably at the Fort Clatsup<BR>
> Museum.<BR>
> <BR>
> Zane<BR>
<BR>
Yup, though it was not a Girardoni.  Now powder to pack and much more<BR>
accurate.  They apparently gave several demonstrations to the Indians along<BR>
the way, who were amazed that this gun that made no smoke and very little<BR>
(comparative)  noise could kill deer at well over 100 paces.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:52:12 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
From: healyzh@aracnet.com <healyzh@aracnet.com><BR>
<BR>
>> It was a bleeping amazingly effective weapon!  One of the great<BR>
>> "tragedies" that it didn't win wider acceptance and interest in improved<BR>
>> versions.  Which one could argue would have led to increased death rates<BR>
>> for the poor draftees stuck doing the fighting, so not such a tragedy.<BR>
But<BR>
>> still.  Now that's a weapon that appeals to my gearheadedness.<BR>
Austrians,<BR>
>> of all people.  One would have expected it from Napoleon or the Brits.<BR>
><BR>
>Actually this sounds a lot like a gun that the Lewis & Clark expedition<BR>
took<BR>
>with them....  I remember seeing one somewhere, probably at the Fort<BR>
Clatsup<BR>
>Museum.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    They have one at the St. Louis Arch as well.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:56:56 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Battle Dress Martial Arts Combat league<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >Hmm.. A new sport: BDBoxing 2 teams of 2 battledress outfitted contestants,<BR>
> 1 large warehouse, an assortment of large sticks, rocks, and pointy things.<<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
A large collectection of holocamera's...armourglass walls...audience liability<BR>
waivers...fireworks...dancing guys/girls in abbreviated BD...<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> The scary thing is, there must be someone rich enough to sponsor a league of<BR>
> this in the Imperium somewhere.<BR>
> Yeesh...<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Holo/ TV networks... "LETS GET READY TO RRRUUUUMMMBBBBLLEEEE" ...Oneday Night<BR>
Nitro...tonight on HABC!<BR>
<BR>
The amount of money that gets put into WWC/whatever It shouldn't take too much<BR>
to set up the league...especially if manufacturers sponser...somewhere between<BR>
NASCAR and F1 pricing...with manufacturers getting to field trial new mods under<BR>
'combat' conditions<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:56:10 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 4:52 PM, Legate Legion at legate@futureone.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
> ICQ # 8973001<BR>
> legate@futureone.com<BR>
> <BR>
> "I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
> places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
> passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
"Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my<BR>
chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and<BR>
high esprit de corps of my Ranger Regiment.<BR>
<BR>
Acknowledging the fact that a Ranger is a more elite soldier who arrives at<BR>
the cutting edge of battle by land, sea, or air, I accept the fact that as a<BR>
Ranger my country expects me to move farther, faster and fight harder than<BR>
any other soldier.<BR>
<BR>
Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert,<BR>
physically strong and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my<BR>
share of the task whatever it may be. One-hundred-percent and then some.<BR>
<BR>
Gallantly will I show the world that I am a specially selected and<BR>
well-trained soldier. My courtesy to superior officers, neatness of dress<BR>
and care of equipment shall set the example for others to follow.<BR>
<BR>
Energetically will I meet the enemies of my country. I shall defeat them on<BR>
the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my<BR>
might. Surrender is not a Ranger word. I will never leave a fallen comrade<BR>
to fall into the hands of the enemy and under no circumstances will I ever<BR>
embarass my country.<BR>
<BR>
Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude required to fight on to the<BR>
Ranger objective and complete the mission though I be the lone survivor.<BR>
<BR>
RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!"<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:00:48 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: rats<BR>
<BR>
>         A large rat might be 1 lb, though there may be exceptional cases.<BR>
>         I must admit that I tend to be skeptical about reports of 10 lb<BR>
>         rats, but I cannot dismiss them outright.  The ObTrav is, how<BR>
>         often will the PCs be given exagerated descriptions of local<BR>
>         wildlife?<BR>
<BR>
It may *look* like an ordinary rabbit, but it's got it's got big pointy teeth!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
Did you read what I read?  Write it right here in red.<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:59:36 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
>Well most of my characters have had a strong liking for the<BR>
>revolver/silencer/shoulderstock combination, usually backed up with a<BR>
>blade or a dagger. Some of my more "combat oriented" characters have<BR>
>branched out into submachine guns, but with one exception I feel that one<BR>
>personal small arm with a long arm (usually a rifle or ACR, but<BR>
>occasionally a laser rifle) in the airraft is more than adequate.<BR>
<BR>
Back in the TNE Pocket days, I designed a modular weapons system for GUESS.<BR>
I used FF&S rules.  It was a 9mm ETC pistol.  It came standard with a short <BR>
barrel.<BR>
That could be swapped out for a much longer barrel, with muzzle break & <BR>
flash suppressor.<BR>
It also had a detachable shoulder stock & extended magazines.<BR>
So from simple, large autopistol, you could rebuild it to a stocked, long <BR>
barrelled SMG with a 32 round snail drum magazine.<BR>
<BR>
For more details, use the URL in the sig,  and look under Traveller <BR>
Gearheading.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
Exigis Domus Hillaria - http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2672<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2673</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 27 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2673<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Keeping One's Word<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: Canon, Marc, LUG, and Hasbro<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2672<BR>
Re : Medical Query<BR>
Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
Re:  muzzle flashes and grenades<BR>
Re: Canon<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:04:30 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Keeping One's Word<BR>
<BR>
> PS  In all seriousness, I commend you very sincerely Loren.  Thank you for<BR>
>  upholding a very important value, that seems all but forgotten in our<BR>
>  modern world.  Keeping one's word.  :-><BR>
<BR>
Yeah, well, I'm funny that way. When I even think about reneging, my mother's <BR>
ghost appears and announces that she is _very_ disappointed in me. Same thing <BR>
happens when I start to toss a gum wrapper elsewhere but in the trash . . .<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
P.S. Dad's shade only appears if I walk past a penny on the street without <BR>
picking it up.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:05:36 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 4:52 PM, Legate Legion at legate@futureone.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
> ICQ # 8973001<BR>
> legate@futureone.com<BR>
> <BR>
> "I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
> places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
> passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
 my personal favorite:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
1. Legionnaire : you are a volunteer serving France faithfully and with<BR>
honor. <BR>
<BR>
2. Every Legionnaire is your brother-at-arms, irrespective of his<BR>
nationality, race or creed. You will demonstrate this by an unwavering and<BR>
straight forward solidarity which must always bind together members of the<BR>
same family. <BR>
<BR>
3. Respectful of the Legion's traditions, honoring your superiors,<BR>
discipline and comradeship are your strength, courage and loyalty your<BR>
virtues. <BR>
<BR>
4. Proud of your status as a legionnaire, you will display this pride, by<BR>
your turnout, always impeccable, your behavior, ever worthy, though modest,<BR>
your living-quarters, always tidy.<BR>
<BR>
5. An elite soldier : you will train vigorously, you will maintain your<BR>
weapons as if it were your most precious possession, you will keep your body<BR>
in the peak of condition, always fit.<BR>
<BR>
6. A mission once given to you becomes sacred to you, YOU WILL ACCOMPLISH IT<BR>
TO THE END AND AT ALL COSTS.<BR>
<BR>
7. In combat : you will act without relish of your tasks, or hatred ; you<BR>
will respect the vanquished enemy and will never abandon neither your<BR>
wounded nor your dead, nor will you UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES SURRENDER YOUR<BR>
ARMS.<BR>
<BR>
YEOW!<BR>
<BR>
Tod "voted most likely to join the foreign legion by his high school class"<BR>
Glenn<BR>
 <BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:09:48 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon, Marc, LUG, and Hasbro<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 at 18:06 EDT, Gregory Carl Kettler<BR>
(gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:<BR>
>Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
><BR>
>Indeed.  As of July 5th (IIRC) LUG employees will be WTOC/Hasbro<BR>
>employees.  If I were Marc, I'd take a good look at my contract and make<BR>
>sure that come that day, Hasbro doesn't own the rights to Traveller...<BR>
<BR>
	Can't for the life of me think of what LUG stands for.  Besides Linux<BR>
Users Group.  Someone enlighten me, please?<BR>
<BR>
	Oh, and in what capacity does LUG employ Marc?  Jeez, I've been out of it<BR>
for just a few months, and look what happens.  At least I'm somewhat<BR>
familiar with the WOTC/Hasbro thing.<BR>
<BR>
	Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:05:19 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Leonard replied to me:<BR>
>> I find it more wrong that you live somewhere where you actually need to be<BR>
>> that concerned about personal safety.<BR>
><BR>
>It's not bad here. I rarely hear shots.<BR>
><BR>
>The place I lived before I'd hear them several times a night on Friday<BR>
>and Saturday. And this was only 4 blocks from a police station!<BR>
<BR>
Strewth! In my book, "It's not bad here, I rarely hear shots" is still not a<BR>
safe environment! Wow, you guys have a totally different mindset. It's as though<BR>
you take such things for granted - that such things are commonplace.<BR>
<BR>
In contrast, there is a great hullabaloo if (for example) a cop here shoots and<BR>
kills someone. In NSW, I think they are up to about 15 police shootings in the<BR>
past 10 years (40+ in Victoria). I guess these stats are laughable in the<BR>
States.<BR>
<BR>
I'm told that earlier this year there was a guns flamewar on the TML. No wonder,<BR>
when you realise that the problem is actually the difference in mindset<BR>
generated by the environment. Then you can sit back and wonder whether any<BR>
outside criticism is justified. Maybe, _within that environment_, things are<BR>
different enough that different rules should apply. A bit like looking at the<BR>
military response that resulted in Hiroshima and Nagasaki from the comfort of<BR>
our loungerooms rather than focussing it through the bloody lens of Okinawa. Or,<BR>
for an ObTrav, "the embarrassed handwringings" in 1240 when looking back at how<BR>
the Star Vikings operated.<BR>
<BR>
Wow, I've just thought of another reference. Leonard, would you mind being used<BR>
as an example of how an Efati's mindset differs from a Moranite? Low vs High Law<BR>
Level??<BR>
<BR>
(BTW, how _do_ you make up derived names; "Reginian", "Tavonnian/Tavonnite",<BR>
"Lanthian"?? What are the verbal rules? Any linguists/lexicologists out there?)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:10:38 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 2:59 PM, Mark Urbin at urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>> Well most of my characters have had a strong liking for the<BR>
>> revolver/silencer/shoulderstock combination, usually backed up with a<BR>
>> blade or a dagger. Some of my more "combat oriented" characters have<BR>
>> branched out into submachine guns, but with one exception I feel that one<BR>
>> personal small arm with a long arm (usually a rifle or ACR, but<BR>
>> occasionally a laser rifle) in the airraft is more than adequate.<BR>
> <BR>
> Back in the TNE Pocket days, I designed a modular weapons system for GUESS.<BR>
> I used FF&S rules.  It was a 9mm ETC pistol.  It came standard with a short<BR>
> barrel.<BR>
> That could be swapped out for a much longer barrel, with muzzle break &<BR>
> flash suppressor.<BR>
> It also had a detachable shoulder stock & extended magazines.<BR>
> So from simple, large autopistol, you could rebuild it to a stocked, long<BR>
> barrelled SMG with a 32 round snail drum magazine.<BR>
> <BR>
> For more details, use the URL in the sig,  and look under Traveller<BR>
> Gearheading.<BR>
<BR>
Cool stuff.  Anything I can steal (er, quote) on my Trav guns site, The<BR>
Mercenary's Guide to Weapons (http://weapons.travellercentral.com)  I am<BR>
looking for goodies, and always give credit.  I'm trying to create the<BR>
one-stop gun shop for Travellers.  Searchable too.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:10:10 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2672<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 27-Jun-00 7:06:21 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > On 27 Jun 00, at 8:41, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  >> I have a question for Robert O'Connor, TML's resident medico:<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  >> What exactly is a "punctured eardrum" and why does it make one unfit for<BR>
>  >> military service? One reason I have heard advanced is that it makes a <BR>
gas <BR>
> <BR>
>  >> mask useless, but I find this sets off my built-in doubt alarm.<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  > Not sure, but I think the most obvious would be the loss of hearing on <BR>
one <BR>
> <BR>
>  > side (plus it increases the risk of ear infections and I believe it <BR>
> effects <BR>
>  > balance).<BR>
<BR>
Reason I ask is that during WWII, CoS Marshal asked why F. SInatra had been <BR>
deferred and upon being told "punctured eardrum" suggested further <BR>
investigation of the case. Perhaps no one ever told George of the risk of <BR>
infections . . .<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:09:11 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Medical Query<BR>
<BR>
Mark Cook's post is correct in all the important details.<BR>
<BR>
(The digest with Loren's post came in after I went to bed - 0050 hours,<BR>
local time).<BR>
<BR>
> It healed after<BR>
> about 6 weeks and resulted in no premanent damage.)<BR>
That's why ENT (ear, nose, and throat, not Tolkienesque!) surgeons don't<BR>
repair them anymore, unless there's some other complication.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:09:18 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
David Summers wrote :-<BR>
> And why is it so hard.  Bacteria are the most numerous species<BR>
> on Earth based on their ability to survive based on "some common<BR>
> substrates".<BR>
<BR>
That fact is not under dispute, and never has been. <BR>
However, it is unlikely that humans are all colonised with every species<BR>
of bacteria known, though, isn't it, because conditions aren't right for<BR>
all of them.<BR>
<BR>
Sigh. The thought process goes something like this :-<BR>
The biochemistry of Vland is similar to that of Terra.<BR>
There is a difference in genetic material (DNA vs. PNA), the genetic<BR>
code, and the replication machinery. So there are no viruses that can<BR>
cross the genetic divide.<BR>
<BR>
Trace element and cofactor requirements are somewhat different. (This<BR>
leads to shugilli tricks in processing 'inedible' material to prevent<BR>
vitamin deficiencies, for example).<BR>
<BR>
Glycobiology is slightly different, leading to problems with bacterial<BR>
adhesion.<BR>
<BR>
There are a couple of amino acids difference between the two<BR>
biochemistries.<BR>
<BR>
So, _within a host with the alternate biochemistry_, the visiting<BR>
microbe has a few challenges to contend with.<BR>
<BR>
It's not a cakewalk for the almighty bacteria!<BR>
E.g. D. radiodurans doesn't grow particularly fast ; M. tuberculosis<BR>
isn't particularly invasive, M. leprae has very low infectivity.<BR>
<BR>
Taking all these factors into consideration, *colonisation* and<BR>
tolerance (if not symbiosis) are the most likely outcomes in the<BR>
human-microbe interaction.<BR>
<BR>
As I have said before, virulent strains develop from time to time, but<BR>
since they kill their hosts, they don't last for long. Not every<BR>
organism is like Y. pestis or anthrax.<BR>
<BR>
<position statement><BR>
The development of immune tolerance to a wide variety of 'unusual'<BR>
antigens led to, with time, the Vilani 'longevity factor' as well as a<BR>
disturbing lack of resistance to influenza, the 'common cold', etc.<BR>
</position statement><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 00:31:56 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 3:16 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/27/00 6:23 AM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Hmmm..<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Depends on the group - I have had groups that never owned more then a<BR>
9mm<BR>
> > autopistol, but the most memorable group had 'Groove' a BD clad marine<BR>
with<BR>
> > an 20mm RAM AutoGL. He accually had a clip of nukes for it (hard times<BR>
> > campain).<BR>
> ><BR>
> > One adventure with another group of overarmed fools, their patron _made_<BR>
> > them only take body pistols on a job.... hehehe.. they really felt<BR>
naked.<BR>
><BR>
> Given the effectiveness of the body pistol, I think I'd take a baseball<BR>
bat<BR>
> Classic Trav:<BR>
><BR>
> Weapon          Damage      Low     Avg     Max<BR>
><BR>
> body pistol     3D-8        1       2,3     10<BR>
> Ball Bat        2D          2       7       14<BR>
> dagger          2D-3        1       4       11<BR>
<BR>
Where did you get these damage figures?<BR>
<BR>
My CT Reprint shows (Bk1 p.47):<BR>
<BR>
Body Pistol     3D<BR>
Baseball Bat   2D (Cudgel)<BR>
Dagger            2D<BR>
<BR>
Now you aren't likely to hit anyone beyond short range with the BP, or<BR>
anyone wearing anything better than Jack, but it does the same damage as any<BR>
other pistol if it does get through...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:30:26 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Morgan wrote :-<BR>
> If you have ever been on anti-depressants, particularly<BR>
> Prozac/Paxil/Zoloft/Effexor et al, and they helped you, do NOT take<BR>
> ecstasy.  Especially do NOT take ecstasy if you are currently on these<BR>
> drugs.<BR>
<BR>
Very good advice. <BR>
These medications are selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors - in other<BR>
words they greatly prolong the active half-life of this<BR>
neurotransmitter, which is believed to be important in mood regulation.<BR>
<BR>
Serotinergic crises of this sort are potentially lethal, requiring the<BR>
full gamut of supportive therapies. The cases I've been involved with<BR>
have been a little anxiety-inducing.<BR>
<BR>
Effexor (venlafaxine) also inhibits noradrenaline/norepinephrine<BR>
reuptake and is a little worse than the other agents in overdose.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:34:47 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
Oops! I forgot to implicitly mention the immune system's role in the<BR>
drama. Since it stops you from rotting on a daily basis, it must be<BR>
somewhat important.<BR>
<BR>
Note that opportunities for faecal-oral transmission of disease are<BR>
greatly reduced in the absence of viral and parasitic reservoirs. I do<BR>
agree with David S. that the same old bacteria should still be kicking<BR>
around. <BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:47:04 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  muzzle flashes and grenades<BR>
<BR>
 On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 at 16:07 PDT, Tod Glenn<BR>
(webmaster@travellercentral.com) wrote:<BR>
>Subject: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
><BR>
>What I remember vividly about the M16 is the weird "sproing" noise the<BR>
>recoil spring made every time you fired.  We did manage to get some good<BR>
>flames out of the muzzle, though. When we did night fire, my buddy and I<BR>
>were mag loaders.  We qualified last, and as the army hates to turn in<BR>
>unfired ammo, we shot so many mags of tracer, glowing flecks were coming out<BR>
>the barrel.  Chrome lining no doubt.  God knows how old they were.  Mine was<BR>
>marked XM-15 on the receiver IIRC.<BR>
><BR>
>Another weird noise in just noticed:  My Accuracy International rifle has a<BR>
>VERY free floated barrel.  Sometimes when I fire, I hear a strange<BR>
>reverberation.  Accuracy seems fine though.<BR>
><BR>
>You can get a pretty good flash from a 16 if you take off the flash<BR>
>suppressor.  Nothing so dramatic as my old .220 swift, though, which was<BR>
>good for at least a foot.<BR>
><BR>
>Now what I want is some of those Hollywood grenades...<BR>
><BR>
>Tod<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	Heh, had forgotten that sproing noise til you mentioned it.  Yeah, it was<BR>
amusing.  Wow, XM-15 stampings on the receiver!  Never fired my 16 with the<BR>
flash suppressor removed, but got pretty long muzzle flashes at night with<BR>
it.  Over a foot long, IIRC.  Just not nearly as bright or big as the ones<BR>
in the movies.  The movie M-16s produce almost exactly the same muzzle<BR>
flash as an M-16 shooting blanks with the BFA (blank firing adapter).  They<BR>
make nice, fat muzzle flashes probably a foot.<BR>
<BR>
	Hollywood's grenades seem to do exactly as much or as little damage as is<BR>
convenient to the script at that moment.  They can be utterly devastating<BR>
or completely harmless.  In no relation to how damaging a real grenade<BR>
would be in the same circumstances in real life.  Probably my favorite<BR>
Hollywood grenades are the ones Clint Eastwood used in Where Eagles Dare.<BR>
Textbook house-to-house fighting.  You could almost use that segment as a<BR>
training film.  One of the most enjoyable Traveller scenarios I've ever<BR>
played was modelled on Where Eagles Dare.  In fact, Alistair MacLean makes<BR>
good source material.<BR>
<BR>
	My least favorite grenades are the ones my favorite local Traveller ref<BR>
employs.  Unfettered by realism considerations, he has the player pick<BR>
their target (up to about 60 meters away!), then determines the actual<BR>
impact spot by rolling 1D for direction from target spot, and roll another<BR>
1D for distance from that spot....times 10 meters.  The two most obvious<BR>
anomalies produced with this system are that you *cannot* hit your target<BR>
spot directly because there will *always* be variations, and there is a<BR>
fairly good chance that you will impact somewhere closer to yourself than<BR>
your enemy.  Damage is then resolved without regard to the type of the<BR>
grenade, degrees of cover, how confined the space is, etc.  Grenade sumps<BR>
definitely would not help one bit in his universe.  And the hero who throws<BR>
himself on a grenade to save his buddies would find that he and his buddies<BR>
all take equal amounts of damage.   Needless to say, I avoid grenade use in<BR>
his game.  Although it is comforting to think I could actually throw a<BR>
grenade 60 meters, as far as he knows.<BR>
<BR>
	My most favorite grenade is the very first one I threw in boot camp.  The<BR>
grenade range instructor took great pains to make sure we understood we had<BR>
to *instantly* do *exactly* what he told us, when he told us.  Which is<BR>
Marine Corps discipline beat into recruits constantly, anyway.  When it was<BR>
my turn, I was in the pit with him and he instructed me to pull the pin,<BR>
then told me to put my arm back to throw, then he started giving me what<BR>
apparently was a little pep talk, but it went something like this (profuse<BR>
swearing deleted):  "I want you to take that bad boy, and throw it as far<BR>
as you can."  Instantly and obediently, I threw it as far as I could.  Man<BR>
did he get ticked!  "Why did you throw that grenade?" he screamed (again,<BR>
profuse swearing deleted).  "Sir, because the sergeant told the private to,<BR>
sir!"  ("the private' being how we referred to ourselves)  His mouth was<BR>
wide open as he was about to launch a stream of invective, threats, and<BR>
abuse at me.  He just looked at me.  He closed his mouth.  Then he said,<BR>
"get the [deleted] out of here" and went on to the next private.  Footnote:<BR>
 having huge respect for being in a narrow pit with a live grenade, I threw<BR>
that grenade a good 40+ meters.  And I have always been the worst thrower<BR>
of baseballs, footballs, softballs, basketballs, etc. in any game I've ever<BR>
played.  I was very focused with plenty of adrenaline going, LOL.  I've<BR>
only thrown live grenades a total of three times, not counting smoke and gas.<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning ("the Bomber")<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:46:52 -0500<BR>
From: Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Canon<BR>
<BR>
At 07:08 PM 06/26/2000, you wrote:<BR>
>I'm a retired U.S.Army Chief Warrant Officer. My enlisted MOS was 98J<BR>
>(Electronic Warfare Operator), Warrant MOS was 352J (Emanations Analysis<BR>
>Technician). BTW, just for fun, that was abbreviated to Eman Anal Tech......<BR>
><BR>
>Thom Harris<BR>
<BR>
I am former US Navy Surface Missile Fire Controlman 2nd class, NATO <BR>
Seasparrow GMFCS, Harpoon SMS, Mk 23 TAS, CIWS, OJT: Mk 86 GFCS, WLY-1 EWS, <BR>
SLQ-32 EWS, and certified Dome Diver.<G><BR>
<BR>
ReEngaging Lurk Mode:<BR>
<BR>
Sinbad Sam<BR>
Sam Thomas<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:55:12 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 5:05 PM, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au at<BR>
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR>
> Strewth! In my book, "It's not bad here, I rarely hear shots" is still not a<BR>
> safe environment! Wow, you guys have a totally different mindset. It's as<BR>
> though<BR>
> you take such things for granted - that such things are commonplace.<BR>
> <BR>
> In contrast, there is a great hullabaloo if (for example) a cop here shoots<BR>
> and<BR>
> kills someone. In NSW, I think they are up to about 15 police shootings in the<BR>
> past 10 years (40+ in Victoria). I guess these stats are laughable in the<BR>
> States.<BR>
<BR>
The US is a VERY big country, and areas vary.  NE Portland is much 'wilder'<BR>
than where I live (just Southwest, in the suburb of Beaverton). I have never<BR>
heard a gunshot here, just some firecrackers as we approach the 4th of July.<BR>
I frequently forget to lock my door when I leave, and don't bother when I'm<BR>
home (I do own a 125lbs Rottweiller, though.  Also a cat and rat and frog).<BR>
I can drive to Leonard's neck of the woods in about half an hour (barring<BR>
bad traffic).<BR>
<BR>
When I lived in Spokane, crime was even more remote.  The South Hill rapist<BR>
in the early 1980s was unusual that it made the papers for years.<BR>
<BR>
In contrast, when I visited a friend of mine who lives in Queens I was<BR>
totally blown away by the bars on his windows and locks on his doors.  Not<BR>
just deadbolts, mind you.  A thing called the Fox Police Lock, whick is a<BR>
steel bar that fits into a recess in the floor and rises diagonally to<BR>
connect with a steel fixture in the door.  It looks medieval.  I can't<BR>
imagine having to feel like I need to bolt myself into my home.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm told that earlier this year there was a guns flamewar on the TML. No<BR>
> wonder,<BR>
> when you realise that the problem is actually the difference in mindset<BR>
<BR>
Mindset does make the difference.  Someone I once knew, a former NYC cop and<BR>
occasional gun writer, used to love to tell this story about attitude.<BR>
<BR>
He has occasion to travel back to New York, after living in the west for<BR>
quite some time, and managed to convince a shooting buddy of his to come<BR>
along.  This buddy of his was a rancher from Wyoming, a cowboy of the old<BR>
school and not the urban wannabe.  sort of a Crocodile Dundee thing.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, they are staying in a rather nice hotel that fronts Central Park.<BR>
The gun writer falls asleep, but apparently his rancher buddy is feeling all<BR>
claustrophobic, and decides to get some air in the middle of the night.<BR>
Sometime later that evening, the writer wakes to find his 'simple country<BR>
boy' buddy gone and freaks.  This is the Big Apple!  This poor rube is going<BR>
to get himself killed.<BR>
<BR>
Sometime later, Mr. Rancher returns amazingly still alive (most New Yorkers<BR>
seem to think that only they have the savvy to survive their city).  After<BR>
the writer reads the riot act to his buddy, the rancher notes the his friend<BR>
was once a New York cop, and "could he do something with this, as they're<BR>
illegal in the city".  At this point, he tosses a revolver onto the bed.<BR>
<BR>
Apparently, as our cowboy friend was taking some air, he was approached by<BR>
some one who demanded money a flashed a gun, the "I have the magic gun, you<BR>
must do what I say".  While this may work on fellow New Yorkers, who know<BR>
how the games is played (I show my gun, you give me your money and everbody<BR>
goes home happy and unhurt), our hero has a different idea of polite<BR>
behavior.  He has been taught that you don't point guns at people that you<BR>
aren't going to shoot.  This same gentleman also spent his formative years<BR>
where a bar brawl on Saturday night is high entertainment.  Shocked to the<BR>
rude behavior of the mugger, he takes the fellows gun away and gave him "a<BR>
good thrashing" i.e one that he did not walk away from.  Or hero then<BR>
returns to his hotel room.<BR>
<BR>
I have always loved this story, as it really contrasts 'wild' west attitude<BR>
with the big city east one (not to suggest that there are not 'wild west'<BR>
types back east).<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  I'm not sure, but it is a great story. Doubtless different worlds<BR>
will have their own unique character.  That will define a place as alien as<BR>
much as any weird races or strange technology.  We expect aliens to be<BR>
alien.  Humans are another matter.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "the rambler" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:06:55 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Peter wrote:<BR>
>Oh, and for some reason I can't  fathom,  they  all  like  remote<BR>
>control toy cars loaded with C4!<BR>
<BR>
So they haven't discovered the joys of remote control toy cars with _TDX_, yet?<BR>
Takes the bad guys down at the ankles...<BR>
<BR>
Use a toy helicopter or air/raft and you can even set the blast height (and<BR>
duck!)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:16:16 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 4:31 PM, Matthew Bond at mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 3:16 PM<BR>
> Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
>> on 6/27/00 6:23 AM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> Hmmm..<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Depends on the group - I have had groups that never owned more then a<BR>
> 9mm<BR>
>>> autopistol, but the most memorable group had 'Groove' a BD clad marine<BR>
> with<BR>
>>> an 20mm RAM AutoGL. He accually had a clip of nukes for it (hard times<BR>
>>> campain).<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> One adventure with another group of overarmed fools, their patron _made_<BR>
>>> them only take body pistols on a job.... hehehe.. they really felt<BR>
> naked.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Given the effectiveness of the body pistol, I think I'd take a baseball<BR>
> bat<BR>
>> Classic Trav:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Weapon          Damage      Low     Avg     Max<BR>
>> <BR>
>> body pistol     3D-8        1       2,3     10<BR>
>> Ball Bat        2D          2       7       14<BR>
>> dagger          2D-3        1       4       11<BR>
> <BR>
> Where did you get these damage figures?<BR>
<BR>
LBB volume 1 copyright 1977 page 43<BR>
<BR>
and yes, my "reprint" shows the same figures as yours.  What gives?<BR>
> <BR>
> My CT Reprint shows (Bk1 p.47):<BR>
> <BR>
> Body Pistol     3D<BR>
> Baseball Bat   2D (Cudgel)<BR>
> Dagger            2D<BR>
> <BR>
> Matt<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:14:21 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Tod wrote:<BR>
>> The point is that it is almost undetectable, so you take it places where<BR>
>> guns are not supposed to go.  Yes, it sucks.  But having a little<BR>
>> gun beats having no gun.<BR>
><BR>
>Sometimes.  It would depend on the situation.  And I don't think Marc et.<BR>
>Al. ever imagined the downsizing that would occur in serious caliber<BR>
>handguns.  Ever see a Semmerling?  .45acp manually operated pistol that will<BR>
>fit in the palm of you hand.  Build it at Tech level 8 with composites and<BR>
>ceramics, shoot light lexan bullets (variation of Thunderzap) at high<BR>
>velocity.  Now you've got something.<BR>
<BR>
So now all you need to do is create uprated CT and MT variants (I think T4<BR>
already has one) of the body pistol, and everyone will be happy. Or have you<BR>
already done so? I don't remember seeing one when I rated your site a few days<BR>
ago?<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2673<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2674</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2674<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2665<BR>
Re: Battle Dress and Martial Arts (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
grenades<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Keeping One's Word<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2665<BR>
Re: prior military experience, and weapon possession tendencies<BR>
Re: grenades<BR>
Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
Re: grenades<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
Re: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:19:36 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2665<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 at 21:27, Samuel D. Weiss (samwise1@email.msn.com) wrote:<BR>
>Now if you mean battle dress to battle dress unarmed combat...that would be<BR>
>weird, but possible. I think.<BR>
>Hmmm....<BR>
><BR>
>Sam<BR>
><BR>
	Use monofilament weapons, or high penetration melee weapons (battle axe is<BR>
my favorite), or sticky explosives as first choice.  If unarmed, consider<BR>
what the extremely rigid armor and superhuman strength and dexterity of the<BR>
battle dress would do for you.  Strike for weak parts of the opponent's<BR>
armor, such as joints, exposed sensors and other equipment.  Holds probably<BR>
are not a good idea.  Throws could get interesting.<BR>
<BR>
	Mostly, this could not be modelled in Traveller personal combat systems.<BR>
It would be entertaining as all heck for the players, though.<BR>
<BR>
	Would ACQ model this well?<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning, who is almost completely untutored in any martial arts<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:53:15 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress and Martial Arts (was Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote,<BR>
>The former are *nuts*. With the exception of some late period jousting<BR>
armor (not intended for *real* combat) plate armor was *less* of a<BR>
hassle to wear than a field pack. <<BR>
<BR>
This is my impression as well. Further, it is my belief, albeit based on<BR>
little more than intuition, that most martial arts systems can be  performed<BR>
reasonably well in light to medium armor. They may even have specific moves<BR>
designed for this.<BR>
Of course, not having access to various types of Asian armor ("econo" Kendo<BR>
armor runs about $700) or a reasonable range of people to test this theory,<BR>
I can't prove it. Further, there is no significant range of historical<BR>
evidence to back me up, other than the simple fact that all other Bugei<BR>
(essentially "combat") skill were meant to be performed in full armor. Most<BR>
of the selections from old books showing unarmed combat show the<BR>
practitioners in simple loin cloths or robes at most. (And I also don't have<BR>
the funds or the linguistic skills to do primary research.) So at best I can<BR>
give you my "hunch" on the matter.<BR>
<BR>
>The real problem was the padding under it. Between that and the<BR>
"shell", you were wearing a personal oven... :-)<<BR>
<BR>
And since battle dress is "climate controlled" that problem would be totally<BR>
eliminated.<BR>
<BR>
>--Laning, who is almost completely untutored in any martial arts<<BR>
wrote,<BR>
>Strike for weak parts of the opponent's armor, such as joints, exposed<BR>
sensors and other equipment.<<BR>
<BR>
Which is a basic summary of how to attack someone larger and stronger than<BR>
you not wearing battle dress. (I leave it to you to figure out what "exposed<BR>
sensors" and "other equipment" consists of.)<BR>
<BR>
>Holds probably are not a good idea.  Throws could get interesting.<<BR>
<BR>
Again, right on target.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
*sigh*<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:02:58 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: grenades<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 5:47 PM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> My least favorite grenades are the ones my favorite local Traveller ref<BR>
> employs.  Unfettered by realism considerations, he has the player pick<BR>
> their target (up to about 60 meters away!), then determines the actual<BR>
> impact spot by rolling 1D for direction from target spot, and roll another<BR>
> 1D for distance from that spot....times 10 meters.  The two most obvious<BR>
> anomalies produced with this system are that you *cannot* hit your target<BR>
> spot directly because there will *always* be variations, and there is a<BR>
> fairly good chance that you will impact somewhere closer to yourself than<BR>
> your enemy.  Damage is then resolved without regard to the type of the<BR>
> grenade, degrees of cover, how confined the space is, etc.  Grenade sumps<BR>
> definitely would not help one bit in his universe.  And the hero who throws<BR>
> himself on a grenade to save his buddies would find that he and his buddies<BR>
> all take equal amounts of damage.   Needless to say, I avoid grenade use in<BR>
> his game.  Although it is comforting to think I could actually throw a<BR>
> grenade 60 meters, as far as he knows.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe they were V-40s.  I bet you could huck one of those babies that far.<BR>
<BR>
I use the following rules for grenades.<BR>
<BR>
Standard grenade do one or two types of damage, blast and fragmentation.  A<BR>
grenade is described in terms of damage as xD/xD where the first number is<BR>
blast and the second is fragmentation.  A (modified) roll of 8+ indicated a<BR>
'hit' with a grenade, i.e. the target is withing the grenades secondary<BR>
damage radius and is subject to fragmentation (treat as shotgun for for the<BR>
purposes of armor, if you wish).<BR>
<BR>
Rolling a (modified 10+) indicates the target is in the grenade's primary<BR>
damage radius radius.  Both blast and fragmentation damage occurs.  I use<BR>
different colored dice to represent blast/fragmentation. Only sealed targets<BR>
are protected from blast.  The referee may determine that blast is directed<BR>
against a single stat.  Note that terrain can force target into the primary<BR>
or secondary damage radii.<BR>
<BR>
Example: standard Military Technologies Polyvalent grenade<BR>
<BR>
8D damage as 4D/4D.  with fragmentation sleeve removed 4D/-<BR>
Primary damage radius 5 meters (the k90 zone), secondary damage radius 15m<BR>
<BR>
Our hero loves grenade.  He is a gave up a promising career in GravBall to<BR>
join the service and has the skill Grenadier-3.  He is in his defensive<BR>
fighting position (they used to be called foxholes0 throwing his grenade at<BR>
troops in the open.  No modifiers.  He rolls 7, plus his grenadier of 3, 10,<BR>
it bounces of someone's chest and lands at their feet. Primary damage<BR>
radius.  This is bad.  8D damage.  His buddy is 6 meters away.  don't bunch<BR>
up, just like they taught you in basic.  He is out of primary damage, but<BR>
within secondary. 4D damage, but as he's already injured, he can spread it.<BR>
I don't need to roll twice, because I'm lazy, and the 4 red dice are<BR>
fragmentation, the 4 clear dice are blast.<BR>
<BR>
Pvt Jody in the next DFP also throws a grenade, but not being particularly<BR>
able, misses with a 6.  this is not a critical failure, so the grenade went<BR>
left, right or long.  A critical miss can be anything from a faulty grenade,<BR>
forgot to pull the pin, REAL short of hit my buddies in the next position.<BR>
I tend to game these out.<BR>
<BR>
Flash bangs do blast damage only, and may have a primary and secondary blast<BR>
zone (e.g. 4D/2D.  That's 6D blast at primary, 2D at seconday.).<BR>
<BR>
Grenades when defined are given a primary and secondary range.  I base these<BR>
on published K90, K50 radii if available, or just use 5 and 15 meters for<BR>
standard grenades, 2 and 10 for minis like the V-40.<BR>
<BR>
Other grenades have additional effects.  For example, our hero has been<BR>
saving his Accuracy Systems FireFrag.  About the size of an M18 smoke<BR>
grenade, it is essentially a standard frag that also showers the target with<BR>
a nice phosphorous/magnesium mix.  I, the referee, decide to add 2D for<BR>
incendiary damage, and 1D for each turn the target is on fire.  plus that<BR>
area is burning and covered with a lot of smoke.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, that's the basics.  you can modify this system as it fits you game,<BR>
style of play and traveller variant.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:09:46 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 6:14 PM, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au at<BR>
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Dear Folks -<BR>
> <BR>
> Tod wrote:<BR>
>>> The point is that it is almost undetectable, so you take it places where<BR>
>>> guns are not supposed to go.  Yes, it sucks.  But having a little<BR>
>>> gun beats having no gun.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Sometimes.  It would depend on the situation.  And I don't think Marc et.<BR>
>> Al. ever imagined the downsizing that would occur in serious caliber<BR>
>> handguns.  Ever see a Semmerling?  .45acp manually operated pistol that will<BR>
>> fit in the palm of you hand.  Build it at Tech level 8 with composites and<BR>
>> ceramics, shoot light lexan bullets (variation of Thunderzap) at high<BR>
>> velocity.  Now you've got something.<BR>
> <BR>
> So now all you need to do is create uprated CT and MT variants (I think T4<BR>
> already has one) of the body pistol, and everyone will be happy. Or have you<BR>
> already done so? I don't remember seeing one when I rated your site a few days<BR>
> ago?<BR>
<BR>
Not yet.  Are you kidding? I have hundreds of weapons to post yet. 20 years<BR>
of Traveller  And do stats for.  And go to work. And take care of a 3 and 6<BR>
year old, and work on my other 5 websites...<BR>
<BR>
Patience grasshopper.  All will be revealed.<BR>
<BR>
At least I can post to the TML from the office without the boss catching on.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "feeling like a one legged man in an ass-kicking contest" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:11:03<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Keeping One's Word<BR>
<BR>
At 08:04 PM 6/27/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>P.S. Dad's shade only appears if I walk past a penny on the street without <BR>
>picking it up.<BR>
<BR>
My father only haunts me if I pass up the chance to make an atrocious pun,<BR>
or turn down free booze.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:20:59<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2665<BR>
<BR>
At 09:19 PM 6/27/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>	Would ACQ model this well?<BR>
<BR>
Not yet, since it was concieved as a supplement to T4, and didn't include<BR>
such non-Traveller items as monofiliment weapons.<BR>
<BR>
If you like, you can assume that such weapons do exist, and act much like<BR>
Armor Piercing rounds (ACQ p. 28).  Perhaps adjusting the armor and damage<BR>
by 1/5 would be a good model.<BR>
<BR>
Note that it is important to change both penetration *and* damage, or you<BR>
end up with uberweapons.  A monofiliment blade would slice through armor,<BR>
but also leave clean wounds.  Increased damage hits (ACQ p. 29) would do a<BR>
good job of modeling more vital strikes.<BR>
<BR>
(Dom save this for the FAQ.)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Penguin Boy,  Righter of wrongs, hero to millions, &<BR>
friend to Flash Gordon."   - Legate Legion on the TML<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:25:23 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re: prior military experience, and weapon possession tendencies<BR>
<BR>
On  Tue, 27 Jun 2000 at 08:41 EDT, Loren Wiseman (GDWGAMES@aol.com) wrote:<BR>
>Marc had an ADA platoon in Vietnam, and retired as a captain . . . or major, <BR>
>I'm not sure. Rich Banner was a sgt in Korea with an MOS that kept him out<BR>
of <BR>
>Vietnam. Frank and I were never in (although I have been shot at -- does<BR>
that <BR>
>count?).<BR>
><BR>
>LKW<BR>
<BR>
	Rich Banner is that old?  I met him twice, back in the day, and he seemed<BR>
much younger.  Extremely likable person, too.  If you're still in touch<BR>
with him, it would be nice to hear how he's doing.  Maybe he's on the TML?<BR>
Rich....?  ("Hello."  Tap, tap, tap.  "Is this thing on?")<BR>
<BR>
	Is Marc active in the Guard or Reserves now?  Got that impression from<BR>
somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
	Loren, the experience of getting shot at counts for a lot, IMHO.  I was<BR>
never shot at while in uniform, but have been shot at.  Also had weapons<BR>
aimed at me from extremely close range in dicey circumstances.  Drunks<BR>
should never have access to guns.  And at least one cop I very innocently<BR>
ran afoul of at age thirteen.  :-><BR>
<BR>
	For the uninitiated, MOS stands for Military Occupational Specialty.  ADA<BR>
stands for Air Defense Artillery (ack-ack).  Most often, ADA units are<BR>
equipped with missiles.  LKW stands for Loren K Wiseman.  ;-><BR>
<BR>
	I've been curious what kind of battery Marc had.  Hawks?  .50 cals?<BR>
Something else?<BR>
<BR>
	In answer to the earlier inquiry, this TML member was in the US Marine<BR>
Corps, and my MOS was artillery.  If you're going to be in the USMC, that's<BR>
an awful MOS to get stuck with.  Truly terrible reenlistment rate in that<BR>
MOS, for good reason.  Army does artillery quite differently than us, and<BR>
it always sounded more interesting.  My Traveller characters have tended<BR>
towards the Marine career, but plenty of merchants, Navy, and doctors, as<BR>
well.<BR>
<BR>
	Grew up a Navy brat, mostly on the East Coast of the US.  Paradoxically,<BR>
raised with very nonviolent values at home.  I don't currently own guns,<BR>
but have owned a shotgun and a rifle in the past, as well as a few bayonets<BR>
that caught my fancy (blame Marine training  :-).  Currently debating with<BR>
my wife over having firearms in the house, as I'd like to have a couple.<BR>
She's encouraging me to buy swords, because she is into Renaissance Faires<BR>
and other such things.  Currently have two pellet rifles to deal with pests<BR>
in the yard.<BR>
<BR>
	My characters in most games tend to be as heavily armed as encumbrance<BR>
rules and local laws permit, except when playing a character who wouldn't<BR>
be apt to have such toys.  I like to have the right tool for the job, no<BR>
matter what the tactical situation is, so most of my characters have not<BR>
just a lot of weapons, but an enviable variety.  I favor the best battle<BR>
rifle available, perhaps an SMG, perhaps a shotgun, a pistol with really<BR>
big bullets for emergencies, a nasty knife that hopefully doubles as a<BR>
bayonet and has brass knuckles, a smoke grenade, WP grenade, frag grenade,<BR>
and one other grenade....for balance.  In assault situations, I go very<BR>
heavily armored, and wielding a really nasty battle axe.  I also like the<BR>
best vision enhancement equipment possible, preferably integrated with the<BR>
sighting system and ballistic computer.  "Best battle rifle available"<BR>
actually means I try to have a full selection of ACRs, gauss rifles, FGMPs,<BR>
PGMPs, laser carbines/rifles, sniper rifles, and even LMGs and antitank<BR>
rifles.  I get the group discount rate from Famille Spofulam, all by<BR>
myself.  <G>  My characters without battle dress skill<BR>
feel...somehow....incomplete.  I try to acquire brawling or unarmed combat<BR>
skill, as well.  The rest of my group seems to find me a comfort to have<BR>
around when things get violent.  Other times, they're always a bit afraid<BR>
that I may turn into a mass murderer at any moment.  With absolutely no<BR>
justification, it just makes them nervous to have someone around who seeks<BR>
out that much weaponry.  They're pretty much all gun control advocates in<BR>
RL, and little to no contact with firearms.<BR>
<BR>
	I wonder how the weaponry and military service demographics on the TML<BR>
will turn out.<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning (formerly Sergeant, USMC)<BR>
- --USMC stands for Uncle Sam's Misguided Children<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:27:29 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: grenades<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 7:02 PM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> join the service and has the skill Grenadier-3.  He is in his defensive<BR>
> fighting position (they used to be called foxholes0 throwing his grenade at<BR>
<BR>
OK, I know I am replying to my own post, but the Defensive Fighting Position<BR>
thing (foxhole) got the memories coming back.  Anyone else know this one?<BR>
<BR>
"your left, right"<BR>
"Cover!"<BR>
<BR>
"your left, right"<BR>
"Concealment"<BR>
<BR>
"your left, right"<BR>
"Fields of fire!"<BR>
<BR>
"your left, right"<BR>
"Size and shape!"<BR>
<BR>
"your left, right"<BR>
"Optional!"<BR>
<BR>
All the essentials of the defensive fighting position. Thanks to the army, I<BR>
can remember this 20 years later. And is use it every day as an IT<BR>
consultant 8)<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:13:55 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
At 10:09 AM +1000 6/28/00, Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
>David Summers wrote :-<BR>
>  > And why is it so hard.  Bacteria are the most numerous species<BR>
>  > on Earth based on their ability to survive based on "some common<BR>
>  > substrates".<BR>
><BR>
>That fact is not under dispute, and never has been.<BR>
>However, it is unlikely that humans are all colonised with every species<BR>
>of bacteria known, though, isn't it, because conditions aren't right for<BR>
>all of them.<BR>
<BR>
[Stuff on viruses etc.]<BR>
><BR>
>Glycobiology is slightly different, leading to problems with bacterial<BR>
>adhesion.<BR>
><BR>
>There are a couple of amino acids difference between the two<BR>
>biochemistries.<BR>
><BR>
>So, _within a host with the alternate biochemistry_, the visiting<BR>
>microbe has a few challenges to contend with.<BR>
<BR>
First of all, Vland bacteria are going to have a wide range<BR>
of adhesion mechanism, the need for that is quite common<BR>
in bacteria.  Missing amino acids can be a minor challenge<BR>
for bacteria, but they are generally good at making the ones<BR>
they miss.  Also, these are big obstacles to evolve out of.<BR>
You might have a short period where the threat is less,<BR>
but (like the evolution of antibiotic resitant bacteria<BR>
today) it won't take them long to optimize for this<BR>
situation.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>As I have said before, virulent strains develop from time to time, but<BR>
>since they kill their hosts, they don't last for long. Not every<BR>
>organism is like Y. pestis or anthrax.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
You are refering to just the sort of adaption that I mention<BR>
above.  However, why does it have to so virulant that it limits<BR>
its propigation by killing the host? (assuming that it can also<BR>
live outside the host).  As you say, not every organism is<BR>
anthrax.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:25:06 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: grenades<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>All the essentials of the defensive fighting position. Thanks to the army, I<BR>
>can remember this 20 years later. And is use it every day as an IT<BR>
>consultant 8)<BR>
<BR>
They let you use foxholes and grenades at work??  Cool!<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:59:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> - PC 3 is from a low tech world and used  to  carry  a  flintlock<BR>
>   pistol.  Then one day, when trying to capture some bad guys  on<BR>
>   his own, he made the mistake of  firing  a  warning  shot  over<BR>
>   their heads ... and was  promptly  mugged  while  he  tried  to<BR>
>   reload.  The group have given  him  a  9mm  autopistol now.<BR>
<BR>
*Nobody* with any flintlock experience would make *that* mistake.<BR>
That's why it was common to carry 2 if not *4* pistols. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:28:33 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 10:05, david.d.jaques-watson@centrel wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Dear Folks -<BR>
> <BR>
> Leonard replied to me:<BR>
> >> I find it more wrong that you live somewhere where you actually need to<BR>
> >> be that concerned about personal safety.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >It's not bad here. I rarely hear shots.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >The place I lived before I'd hear them several times a night on Friday<BR>
> >and Saturday. And this was only 4 blocks from a police station!<BR>
> <BR>
> Strewth! In my book, "It's not bad here, I rarely hear shots" is still not<BR>
> a safe environment! Wow, you guys have a totally different mindset. It's<BR>
> as though you take such things for granted - that such things are<BR>
> commonplace.<BR>
> <BR>
> In contrast, there is a great hullabaloo if (for example) a cop here<BR>
> shoots and kills someone. In NSW, I think they are up to about 15 police<BR>
> shootings in the past 10 years (40+ in Victoria). I guess these stats are<BR>
> laughable in the States.<BR>
<BR>
Here the whole country got in an uproar because a cop shot someone who <BR>
got drunk and went out smashing shop windows, etc. He then smashed in a <BR>
police car's windscreen with a bat or golf club and (apparently) <BR>
refused to drop his club and bat when told to by the cop. He was then <BR>
shot around 4 times and died (the cops said he died on the way to <BR>
hospital, other witnesses say he died on the road and that they were <BR>
prevented from giving aid by the police). Note that the police also say <BR>
he was actually only shot twice because they "double tap", so each <BR>
group of two bullets only counts as being shot once. I wish I knew how <BR>
to count like that.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:33:15 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
On 27 Jun 00, at 13:05, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> ><BR>
> > It wouldn't surprise me, especially when  under  UK  law  you  do<BR>
> > *not* have the right to defend yourself (except  when  threatened<BR>
> > with *death* and you can't run away) or your property (ever).<BR>
> ><BR>
> I've heard of a women in London being prosecuted for using mace on an<BR>
> attacker.  Assault I think, but I can't attest to its veracity.<BR>
<BR>
Here in NZ you're not allowed mace or peper sprays (they're offensive <BR>
weapons). The police sat that it's because they're afraid that crimals <BR>
will get it and use it. Curiously the cops have the staff and some <BR>
crims have got it - they stole it from the police.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:02:34 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>David Summers wrote :-<BR>
>><stuff I agree with up to a point snipped><BR>
>><BR>
>>What I should have said to make my point crystal clear :-<BR>
>><BR>
>>There's a *big* difference between colonisation and infection.<BR>
>><BR>
>>The microbes of Vland can and do colonise humans.<BR>
>>Human gut and skin flora can and do colonise various niches on Vland.<BR>
>>It's hard going, both ways - the presence of some common substrates<BR>
>>makes it possible - it doesn't make the process easy.<BR>
><BR>
> And why is it so hard.  Bacteria are the most numerous species<BR>
> on Earth based on their ability to survive based on "some common<BR>
> substrates".  Bacteria don't care about your genetic history,<BR>
> as far as they are concerned you are big lump of hard to make<BR>
> amino acids, etc. in a handy oxygen atmosphere.<BR>
<BR>
1. the oxygen atmosphere *isn't* all that handy to most of them. <BR>
2. unlike the sort of materials they normally feed on, we fight back. <BR>
<BR>
Still, stuff like fungal infections are likely, but no worse than on<BR>
earth. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, anything that tries to pull that stunt *internally*<BR>
has got to deal with our immune system *and with the fact that our<BR>
amino acids or sugars (or perhaps both) are the wrong handedness, and<BR>
thus there's a noticable energy penalty to using us for food.<BR>
<BR>
So, as someone else noted, you'll get some "colonization" by some<BR>
organisms. And a very occasional case of something that slips by<BR>
someone's immune system *because of the differences and kills him<BR>
before it has a chance to spread.<BR>
<BR>
The fact that our bodies are *so* different mean that an organism has<BR>
to make the jump all at once, or else rely on strategies evolved to<BR>
deal with dead matter.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:10:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I apologize.  I did not mean to infer that everyone in government housing is<BR>
> lowlife scum.  What I meant was that the low life scum taking advantage of<BR>
> government housing were not likely to be bothered by the rules, unlike<BR>
> decent folks like Leonard and yourself.  Criminals by definition, do not<BR>
> obey the law.  Why do politicians think that new laws that limit the right<BR>
> of law abiding citizens are the answer?  It's like the whole<BR>
> 'zero-tolerance' thing.  It removes any discretion on the part of the<BR>
> enforcers.<BR>
<BR>
The folks here aren't criminals. Mostly medical/psychological problems,<BR>
with the latter being the main reason for the "no drugs, no alcohol, no<BR>
weapons" policy. <BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: I recall a story I heard from someone whose mother was (at the<BR>
time) pretty high up on the staff at the State Mental Hospital in<BR>
Salem. I think it'd transfer nicely to Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Seems that one day they got a cop bringing in a prisoner for the<BR>
violent ward. Access is via a short corridor with remotely operated<BR>
doors at each end. The "outside door is operated from one station, the<BR>
inside door from a station inside the ward (but protected). <BR>
<BR>
The cop was told that he couldn't take his gun in there. He argued, and<BR>
finally, the guy on the outside just gave up and let him into the<BR>
corridor (He shouldn't have!)<BR>
<BR>
The folks inside take one look and tell the cop that no *way* is he<BR>
getting into the ward with a gun. And as he's starting to argue the<BR>
point, the prisoner grabs the gun and shoots the cop!<BR>
<BR>
As I heard it, the cop laid on the floor until the folks on the outside<BR>
were sure the prisoner had fired all the rounds in the gun, at which<BR>
point they opened the door and rushed him.<BR>
<BR>
I can all too easily see some PC making the same sort of mistake... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:20:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Dear Folks -<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard replied to me:<BR>
>>> I find it more wrong that you live somewhere where you actually need to be<BR>
>>> that concerned about personal safety.<BR>
>><BR>
>>It's not bad here. I rarely hear shots.<BR>
>><BR>
>>The place I lived before I'd hear them several times a night on Friday<BR>
>>and Saturday. And this was only 4 blocks from a police station!<BR>
><BR>
> Strewth! In my book, "It's not bad here, I rarely hear shots" is still not a<BR>
> safe environment!<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'm not even sure the noises I've heard a few times *are*<BR>
gunshots. There are a number of other things they could be. <BR>
<BR>
> Wow, you guys have a totally different mindset. It's as though<BR>
> you take such things for granted - that such things are commonplace.<BR>
><BR>
> In contrast, there is a great hullabaloo if (for example) a cop here<BR>
> shoots and kills someone. In NSW, I think they are up to about 15<BR>
> police shootings in the past 10 years (40+ in Victoria). I guess<BR>
> these stats are laughable in the States.<BR>
<BR>
We have a pretty big to-do if a cop kills someone too. Tod may have<BR>
better info, but the last one I recall was a few years back and a<BR>
classic case of "suicide by police". The person was armed (maybe only<BR>
with a knife) and refused to drop it or otherwise co-operate. He(?)<BR>
finally got shot when it looked like he was going to charge the cops.<BR>
<BR>
> Wow, I've just thought of another reference. Leonard, would you mind<BR>
> being used as an example of how an Efati's mindset differs from a<BR>
> Moranite? Low vs High Law Level??<BR>
<BR>
Depends on how you write it up. <g><BR>
<BR>
> (BTW, how _do_ you make up derived names; "Reginian", "Tavonnian/Tavonnite",<BR>
> "Lanthian"?? What are the verbal rules? Any linguists/lexicologists out <BR>
> there?)<BR>
<BR>
It usually depends on the root language for the name. <BR>
<BR>
Earth		Earthling<BR>
Terra		Terran<BR>
		Terrestrial<BR>
Tellus		Tellurian<BR>
Venus		Venerian<BR>
Mars		Martian<BR>
Jupiter		Jovian<BR>
<BR>
For your examples, I'd be tempted to go with "Reginan", "Tavonian"<BR>
(assuming the world name is Tavonis), and I'm not sure about "Lanthan"<BR>
vs "Lanthian". Hell, for all I know, they could call themselves<BR>
"Lanthers"! <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:31:53 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The US is a VERY big country, and areas vary.  NE Portland is much 'wilder'<BR>
> than where I live (just Southwest, in the suburb of Beaverton). I have never<BR>
> heard a gunshot here, just some firecrackers as we approach the 4th of July.<BR>
> I frequently forget to lock my door when I leave, and don't bother when I'm<BR>
> home (I do own a 125lbs Rottweiller, though.  Also a cat and rat and frog).<BR>
> I can drive to Leonard's neck of the woods in about half an hour (barring<BR>
> bad traffic).<BR>
><BR>
> When I lived in Spokane, crime was even more remote.  The South Hill rapist<BR>
> in the early 1980s was unusual that it made the papers for years.<BR>
<BR>
Yet they had somebody *bomb* the police station (small pipe bomb) to<BR>
distract the cops while they robbed a bank. And that was fairly<BR>
recently. <BR>
<BR>
BTW, you having lived in Spokane is a bit spooky. I grew up there and<BR>
only moved to Portland in the early 70s. <BR>
<BR>
Spokane's a bit odd anyway, as a friend aptly described it as "the<BR>
biggest 'small town' I've ever seen"<BR>
<BR>
> In contrast, when I visited a friend of mine who lives in Queens I was<BR>
> totally blown away by the bars on his windows and locks on his doors.  Not<BR>
> just deadbolts, mind you.  A thing called the Fox Police Lock, whick is a<BR>
> steel bar that fits into a recess in the floor and rises diagonally to<BR>
> connect with a steel fixture in the door.  It looks medieval.  I can't<BR>
> imagine having to feel like I need to bolt myself into my home.<BR>
<BR>
Well, what do you expect? He can't legally own a gun to deal with<BR>
intruders, AND THEY KNOW IT.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2674<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2675<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2665<BR>
Re: Guns, Guns, and still more Guns<BR>
Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
Re: risk perception (OT)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:43:19 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, any comments on that giant world map I posted? I am hoping my Aunt, who<BR>
> has a very large printer, can run one off for me when it is finished.<BR>
<BR>
You might keep your eyes open for a used plotter. I saw an HP 7475A go<BR>
for $10 on pdx.forsale a few days ago. I already have one, or I'd have<BR>
tried for it. <BR>
<BR>
It takes A or B (11x17) paper. Hooks up to a serial port. Has a six pen<BR>
carousel. Most CAD software supports it (And Win9x has default drivers<BR>
for it). And since it draws lines, rather than printing dots, the<BR>
result is a lot better.<BR>
<BR>
I've seen *E* sized plotters (34x44) plotters for prices that weren't<BR>
outrageous. The problem with them is finding someplace to *put* them!<BR>
One of those would make maps/floorplans that'd scare your players. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:55:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Back when I was running campaigns, my party generally was only<BR>
> lightly armed by comparison to the "typical" RPG story.  Not that<BR>
> they generally needed more; I tended to run campaigns where you<BR>
> would do far better to _think_ your way out of a jam instead of<BR>
> blasting - and my interpretation of law level was more than just<BR>
> a specification of what the books said you could carry around:<BR>
> the higher the law level, the more likely it was that the police<BR>
> would be nosy (i.e., lowered threshold for Probable Cause); at a<BR>
> lower law level, the cops might not give a damn, but if you tick<BR>
> off a local, well, just remember that he can carry anything you<BR>
> can - and he's likely had more opportunity for practice (not<BR>
> spending large chunks of time in a starship).<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I have yet to hear of a jurisdiction where a cop couldn't<BR>
carry weapons that civilians weren't allowed. And with higher law<BR>
levels the gap between what the cops can drag out if they need to, and<BR>
what you can legally carry tends to get bigger. Think "SWAT"...<BR>
<BR>
I'd say the average cop maybe be allowed to carry stuff 0-1 law levels<BR>
"better" than civilians. With it going up to 1-2 at higher law levels.<BR>
<BR>
And at higher law levels there is a good chance of a SWAT unit. Which<BR>
at high TLs may carry FGMPs on their battle dress. :-)<BR>
<BR>
NOT something the PCs are going to be happy discovering, especially if<BR>
it's all because one PC just *had* to smuggle an illegal weapon out of<BR>
the Starport. <eg><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:40:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>       Capybaras do get big, but they are no closer to rats than humans are<BR>
>>       to Rhesus monkeys.  Again, I am not saying that you have not seen<BR>
>>       huge rats, but I have seen people mistake muskrat and even<BR>
>> beaver for<BR>
>>       big rats.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Peez<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
> Soon after moving to Portland, OR I saw my first 'cat-sized' rat.  The<BR>
> darned thing must have weighed 5 or 6 pounds. Silly me.  I'd never seen a<BR>
> Nutria before.  Apparently, soon after WWII someone had the bright Idea to<BR>
> bring them up here from the South and breed them for fur. (Who ever heard of<BR>
> a nutria skin coat?)<BR>
<BR>
Who ever heard of a *beaver* skin coat? <BR>
<BR>
I haven't seen a nutria yet, but I have seen racoons, deer, and possum<BR>
in the city. And found tracks that I suspect were elk in Forest Park. <BR>
<BR>
Now *possum* makes a good "giant rat"... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:02:22 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 9:59 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
>> - PC 3 is from a low tech world and used  to  carry  a  flintlock<BR>
>> pistol.  Then one day, when trying to capture some bad guys  on<BR>
>> his own, he made the mistake of  firing  a  warning  shot  over<BR>
>> their heads ... and was  promptly  mugged  while  he  tried  to<BR>
>> reload.  The group have given  him  a  9mm  autopistol now.<BR>
> <BR>
> *Nobody* with any flintlock experience would make *that* mistake.<BR>
> That's why it was common to carry 2 if not *4* pistols.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
My wife has a martial arts/ barbarian character who no longer uses guns.<BR>
her character had an adventure with an exploding flintlock on the home<BR>
world, and thinks we're all deranged to be walking around with these bombs.<BR>
<BR>
A sword you can trust.<BR>
<BR>
tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:00:34 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I too treat law level as the likelihood of getting getting checked out by<BR>
> the local Gendarmes.  I believe this is mentioned in the LBBs.  How else to<BR>
> explain law levels over 8.  I treat it as roll 2 die over the local law<BR>
> level to avoid being questioned by the local constabulary.  On some planets,<BR>
> you WILL be stopped regardless ("papers please").<BR>
<BR>
I've got a collection of cartoons and jokes about 1984. The title is<BR>
the punchline of one of the cartoons, reproduced on the cover.<BR>
<BR>
An obviously Soviet guard of some sort, complete with rifle slung over<BR>
his shoulder, is talking to someone in a car:<BR>
<BR>
	"Why are your papers in order?"<BR>
<BR>
Which brings up the lovely way of nailing PCs. Sometimes a forgery can<BR>
be *too* good. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:05:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/27/00 4:52 PM, Legate Legion at legate@futureone.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>  my personal favorite:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> 1. Legionnaire : you are a volunteer serving France faithfully and with<BR>
> honor. <BR>
><BR>
> 2. Every Legionnaire is your brother-at-arms, irrespective of his<BR>
> nationality, race or creed. You will demonstrate this by an unwavering and<BR>
> straight forward solidarity which must always bind together members of the<BR>
> same family. <BR>
><BR>
> 3. Respectful of the Legion's traditions, honoring your superiors,<BR>
> discipline and comradeship are your strength, courage and loyalty your<BR>
> virtues. <BR>
><BR>
> 4. Proud of your status as a legionnaire, you will display this pride, by<BR>
> your turnout, always impeccable, your behavior, ever worthy, though modest,<BR>
> your living-quarters, always tidy.<BR>
><BR>
> 5. An elite soldier : you will train vigorously, you will maintain your<BR>
> weapons as if it were your most precious possession, you will keep your body<BR>
> in the peak of condition, always fit.<BR>
><BR>
> 6. A mission once given to you becomes sacred to you, YOU WILL ACCOMPLISH IT<BR>
> TO THE END AND AT ALL COSTS.<BR>
><BR>
> 7. In combat : you will act without relish of your tasks, or hatred ; you<BR>
> will respect the vanquished enemy and will never abandon neither your<BR>
> wounded nor your dead, nor will you UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES SURRENDER YOUR<BR>
> ARMS.<BR>
><BR>
> YEOW!<BR>
<BR>
There's a much shorter version that I'm told is posted in all the<BR>
orderly rooms in the Legion:<BR>
<BR>
	You are in the Legion to die. The Legion<BR>
	will send you where you can die.<BR>
<BR>
(If anybody has this in the original French, I'd like a copy).<BR>
<BR>
And there's the "motto": March or Die!<BR>
<BR>
All of these fit well with a unit that produced the battle at Camerone.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:09:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Actually, MBA associated also produced a 12mm version that was legal.  The<BR>
>>problem was the gun had no accuracy at long range, and no hitting power at<BR>
>>short range. And the ammo was not cheap.  The gun buying public, not GCA,<BR>
>>killed the gyrojet.  10 or 15 years ago you could buy a gyrojet cheap<BR>
>>through the Shotgun News.  Now they're very expensive collectors items, gone<BR>
>>the way of the Dardik and the Colt2000.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Cool idea, though, a doubtless the inspiration for the accelerator rifle.<BR>
>>As I recall, Niven and Pournelle were quite taken with the idea.<BR>
><BR>
>    As I remember it, just about everyone who John Campbell was publishing was<BR>
> enamored of the gyrojet.  Yes, Niven and Pournelle very notably so.  I<BR>
> never much sympathized with the fascination, and agreed more with the<BR>
> gun-buying public you referred to, as well as your assessment of its<BR>
> shortcomings.  Sometimes, I am so out of step with my fellow gearheads,<BR>
> sigh.  Everyone else seems to think it's a cool idea but me.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I think one of Niven's characters expressed it well. What Buck<BR>
Rogers fan could resist owning his own rocket pistol!<BR>
<BR>
It's actually rather amusing to read the orioginal "Buck Rogers" story<BR>
("Armageddon: 2419 AD")<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:12:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Well most of my characters have had a strong liking for the<BR>
>>revolver/silencer/shoulderstock combination, usually backed up with a<BR>
>>blade or a dagger. Some of my more "combat oriented" characters have<BR>
>>branched out into submachine guns, but with one exception I feel that one<BR>
>>personal small arm with a long arm (usually a rifle or ACR, but<BR>
>>occasionally a laser rifle) in the airraft is more than adequate.<BR>
><BR>
> Back in the TNE Pocket days, I designed a modular weapons system for GUESS.<BR>
> I used FF&S rules.  It was a 9mm ETC pistol.  It came standard with a short <BR>
> barrel.<BR>
> That could be swapped out for a much longer barrel, with muzzle break & <BR>
> flash suppressor.<BR>
> It also had a detachable shoulder stock & extended magazines.<BR>
> So from simple, large autopistol, you could rebuild it to a stocked, long <BR>
> barrelled SMG with a 32 round snail drum magazine.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like the gun my gunsmith friend owned for a while. It was<BR>
either a "broomhandle" Mauser or a Luger. It came in a nice case which<BR>
contained the pistol, an 18 inch barrel, a wooden holster that doubled<BR>
as a stock, an extended magazine, etc. I seem to recall that some<BR>
versions included a silencer. All in a case small enough that *two* of<BR>
them would fit in many attache cases, and it came this way from the<BR>
*factory*. <BR>
<BR>
Now *that* is a nice weapon "system" if you have a decent round for it,<BR>
and maybe an add-on scope.<BR>
<BR>
Anybody recognize it? (And yes, I'm aware that it's probably either<BR>
illegal now, or requires a *lot* of paperwork and "transfer tax").<BR>
<BR>
I think a TL adjusted version would be a nice thing to add to the<BR>
weapons list in Traveller. And I can just about *guarantee* that<BR>
customs officials will take extreme interest in anybody carrying the<BR>
"full kit".<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:09:38 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 9:33 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Here in NZ you're not allowed mace or peper sprays (they're offensive<BR>
> weapons). The police sat that it's because they're afraid that crimals<BR>
> will get it and use it. Curiously the cops have the staff and some<BR>
> crims have got it - they stole it from the police.<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> <BR>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Can't have people fighting back, I suppose.  This is the mentality that says<BR>
that a woman being raped "should just lie back and enjoy it".  What hogwash.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I hear there's something of a scandal in OZ about how the violent crime<BR>
rate went up after the big gun grab.  Heard any such?  Leonard, I think,<BR>
sent me a bit about this.<BR>
<BR>
Interestingly, the violent crime rate here in the States seem to be<BR>
declining.  At the same time that more and more states are passing<BR>
liberalized concealed carry laws.  Hmmmmm.<BR>
<BR>
I think I asked this before, but ObTrav, does anyone have an idea of what<BR>
the average law level in the 3I is?  Is it friendly to the idea of armed<BR>
citizenry in general.  Do the ruling class see the armed populace as the<BR>
bulwark of the Imperium, or does the Imperial nobility view weapon ownership<BR>
by the unwashed masses as destabilizing.  The great unwashed masses must be<BR>
kept in their place.<BR>
<BR>
In playing traveller, I've often wondered about the American fascination<BR>
with royalty and nobility.  It seems to be such an anachronistic system in a<BR>
high tech universe.  IMTU, the Solomani find the Imperial system ridiculous.<BR>
How could anyone base rule on an accident of birth?<BR>
<BR>
I am anxiously awaiting Rim of Fire to see Loren et al's take on the rim.<BR>
finally got a copy of cats and rats on ebay as well.<BR>
<BR>
Tod <BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:18:41 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 10:10 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
> Seems that one day they got a cop bringing in a prisoner for the<BR>
> violent ward. Access is via a short corridor with remotely operated<BR>
> doors at each end. The "outside door is operated from one station, the<BR>
> inside door from a station inside the ward (but protected).<BR>
<BR>
I remember a story from the days when my wife was a deputy US marshal.<BR>
Marshals spend a lot of their time serving process (delivering subpoenas and<BR>
such).  On one such occasion, she had to visit a guest of the Eastern<BR>
Washington State Mental hospital.<BR>
<BR>
She identified herself to the station nurse, who seemed concerned. She asked<BR>
if the individual was in the violent ward.  The nurse replied "oh, we don't<BR>
have a violent ward, we just have violent patients.  Is this going to upset<BR>
him?"<BR>
<BR>
Not something you want to hear.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:26:19 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 10:31 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
>> The US is a VERY big country, and areas vary.  NE Portland is much 'wilder'<BR>
>> than where I live (just Southwest, in the suburb of Beaverton). I have never<BR>
>> heard a gunshot here, just some firecrackers as we approach the 4th of July.<BR>
>> I frequently forget to lock my door when I leave, and don't bother when I'm<BR>
>> home (I do own a 125lbs Rottweiller, though.  Also a cat and rat and frog).<BR>
>> I can drive to Leonard's neck of the woods in about half an hour (barring<BR>
>> bad traffic).<BR>
>> <BR>
>> When I lived in Spokane, crime was even more remote.  The South Hill rapist<BR>
>> in the early 1980s was unusual that it made the papers for years.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yet they had somebody *bomb* the police station (small pipe bomb) to<BR>
> distract the cops while they robbed a bank. And that was fairly<BR>
> recently. <BR>
<BR>
My wife worked that case.  The robbers were from Portland.<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW, you having lived in Spokane is a bit spooky. I grew up there and<BR>
> only moved to Portland in the early 70s.<BR>
> <BR>
> Spokane's a bit odd anyway, as a friend aptly described it as "the<BR>
> biggest 'small town' I've ever seen"<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Yeah, a city trapped in the 50's.  I went to Gonzaga U.  I recall a friend<BR>
and fellow student of mine, Marc Caldon, an African American gentleman, told<BR>
me the story of his first (and only) haircut in Spokane.  After what seemed<BR>
to be a rather long and torturous tonsorial experience, the barber remarked<BR>
"I've never cut a colored fellow's hair before".  He cut his own hair from<BR>
then forward.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:21:06 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2665<BR>
<BR>
At 0:56 -0400 28/6/00, Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>(Dom save this for the FAQ.)<BR>
<BR>
highlight, click, drag, rename text clipping 'ACQ FAQ addition'.<BR>
<BR>
Consider it done...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:25:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Guns, Guns, and still more Guns<BR>
<BR>
<Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) said><BR>
>Well, what do you expect? He can't legally own a gun to deal with<BR>
>intruders, AND THEY KNOW IT.<BR>
<BR>
So, what are the gun laws in Queens ?<BR>
In Los Angeles, where I live, you are permitted to own firearms and <BR>
to keep them in your home or/and business. Unless you have a special <BR>
permit you are not permitted to carry on your person concealed <BR>
firearms. In Los Angeles it is virtually impossible to get this <BR>
permit. In Pennsylvania where I used to live it was very easy to get <BR>
a concealed carry permit. In Pennsylvania it was also common, at <BR>
least in the past, for fathers (but not mine) to take their sons <BR>
hunting during deer season. It is hard (impossible) to do any deer <BR>
hunting in California. -- Bob<BR>
<BR>
In the past I owned a Sig Sauer 0.380 auto pistol and a black-powder <BR>
flintlock pistol.  I have also fired an M16A2 rifle and a single-shot <BR>
target shooting rifle (name I can't remember).<BR>
<BR>
Rifles are easy to shoot accurately.  Pistols are much harder to <BR>
shoot accurately.  Back in the early days I would miss the entire <BR>
pistol target sheet.  Now I am better, but not by much.  I am much <BR>
better with a rifle.  With blades and hand-to-hand combat I am <BR>
hopeless.  For home defense (or defense anywhere) a shotgun works the <BR>
best.  I should, however, learn some hand-to-hand combat skills as <BR>
most of the time I don't have handy access to a firearm/blade.<BR>
<BR>
My character used a laser pistol and a dagger. Plus he had an ancient <BR>
terran black-powder smoothbore musket.  <BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:29:25 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 10:40 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Who ever heard of a *beaver* skin coat?<BR>
> <BR>
> I haven't seen a nutria yet, but I have seen racoons, deer, and possum<BR>
> in the city. And found tracks that I suspect were elk in Forest Park.<BR>
> <BR>
> Now *possum* makes a good "giant rat"... :-)<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but Forest Park is the largest park in the US that falls within a city<BR>
limits.  We're not talking urban green strip.  And for all you New Yorkers<BR>
out there: Central Park is tiny.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:36:43 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 11:05 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> There's a much shorter version that I'm told is posted in all the<BR>
> orderly rooms in the Legion:<BR>
> <BR>
> You are in the Legion to die. The Legion<BR>
> will send you where you can die.<BR>
> <BR>
> (If anybody has this in the original French, I'd like a copy).<BR>
> <BR>
> And there's the "motto": March or Die!<BR>
> <BR>
> All of these fit well with a unit that produced the battle at Camerone.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, that quote is attributed to a French general in WWI (commandant of the<BR>
Legion: "You are legionaires so that you may die, and I am sending you where<BR>
you can die".  I guess that passes for "Go get 'em tiger!" in France.  I can<BR>
probably find the exect quote in one of my books on' La Legion Etranger'.<BR>
<BR>
No there's a colorful outfit.  They have to put them at the end of the<BR>
parade because of their 66 beat per minute march, a swagger really.  And<BR>
their anthem glorifies nothing more noble than blood sausage.  "But there's<BR>
none for the Belgians 'cause they're dirty little shirkers".<BR>
<BR>
Tod <BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:38:18 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 11:00 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> I've got a collection of cartoons and jokes about 1984. The title is<BR>
> the punchline of one of the cartoons, reproduced on the cover.<BR>
> <BR>
> An obviously Soviet guard of some sort, complete with rifle slung over<BR>
> his shoulder, is talking to someone in a car:<BR>
> <BR>
> "Why are your papers in order?"<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
OK, Leonard.  That's a keeper<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 00:00:17 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 11:12 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> Sounds like the gun my gunsmith friend owned for a while. It was<BR>
> either a "broomhandle" Mauser or a Luger. It came in a nice case which<BR>
> contained the pistol, an 18 inch barrel, a wooden holster that doubled<BR>
> as a stock, an extended magazine, etc. I seem to recall that some<BR>
> versions included a silencer. All in a case small enough that *two* of<BR>
> them would fit in many attache cases, and it came this way from the<BR>
> *factory*. <BR>
> <BR>
> Now *that* is a nice weapon "system" if you have a decent round for it,<BR>
> and maybe an add-on scope.<BR>
> <BR>
> Anybody recognize it? (And yes, I'm aware that it's probably either<BR>
> illegal now, or requires a *lot* of paperwork and "transfer tax").<BR>
<BR>
That's a tough one, as there are several guns that fit that description.<BR>
The time between the turn of the century and WWII saw quite a few<BR>
pistol-carbines.  Starting from the Borchart, and including the Astras,<BR>
Lugers, Mauser C-96 variants (Broomhandles), Bergmann 'Mars', etc.<BR>
<BR>
The Mauser C-96 is often found with a hollow wooden holster/stock.  And I<BR>
have seen an example fitted with a Maxim suppressor and a very tiny<BR>
telescopic sight.  This could easily have been such a gun, and may have been<BR>
old enough to have been grand-fathered in under the 1934 NFA or one of the<BR>
subsequent amnesty periods.  Or not.<BR>
<BR>
There's some unbelievable stuff out there that was either bought in the old<BR>
days (when you could buy a Thompson through the mail) or brought over in a<BR>
duffel bag.<BR>
<BR>
Here in Portland, an elderly women called the ATF saying that her husband<BR>
had died, and she wanted to get rid of his gun.  What he has was a mint<BR>
condition, unregistered Maxim water cooled brass-jacket machinegun.  They<BR>
tried to get a museum to take this work of art.  Sadly, no one was<BR>
interested, and off it went to Oregon steel mills and the big melting pot.<BR>
My wife say that it's the only time they've destroyed a gun that she wanted<BR>
to cry.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav;  Just because the PC's are trapped on a high law level world and in<BR>
need of hardware doesn't mean they're out of luck.<BR>
<BR>
"Thanks for the meal ma'am, but we gotta get moving, those troopers are hot<BR>
on our tail"<BR>
<BR>
"Perhaps you could use my old Elmer's (rest his soul) gun".<BR>
<BR>
"Please, I insist" Much eye rolling and sotto vocce comment to "Just humor<BR>
the old gal".<BR>
<BR>
Granny returns with an old moth-eaten blanket. "Elmer brought this back from<BR>
the war".<BR>
<BR>
"Hey, that's a Langthorn M86 Phased plasma rifle!  ma'am, did your Elmer<BR>
bring anything else home from the war?"<BR>
<BR>
"Just old Betsy.  She's out in the barn."<BR>
<BR>
Much glance exchanging by the PCs before they all scurry from their places<BR>
to check out 'Betsy'.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
PC's look about the run down farms house. "Thanks ma'am, but we'll be ok"<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:40:28 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
<BR>
Ken Hagler writes:<BR>
<BR>
>on 6/27/2000 9:54 AM, Ethan Henry wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>>Some things the Vilani did thousands of years before the Terrans:<BR>
>[snip]<BR>
>> - colonize several worlds via sublight sleeper ships, something the<BR>
>> Terrans _never_ did<BR>
> <BR>
>Actually, the Terrans did have sleeper ships. Three of them were launched by<BR>
>the European Space Agency in the mid-21st century--they ended up colonizing<BR>
>the Island Cluster in the Great Rift. The Cluster is the setting for the<BR>
>campaign in the Trillion Credit Squadron book.<BR>
<BR>
And there were an undisclosed number of other sleeper ships. Two examples of<BR>
worlds also settled by Solomani sleeper ships are Victoria/Lanth and<BR>
Algine/Regina (though Algine had a prior population (IMO 3rd Wave Vilani)).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:21:40 +1000<BR>
From: Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW, I hear there's something of a scandal in OZ about how the<BR>
> violent crime rate went up after the big gun grab.  Heard any such?<BR>
<BR>
I can remember a bit of a fuss being made because the NRA made this up<BR>
for some sort of add campaign.<BR>
<BR>
To me it seems to have remained about the same  for the last decade.<BR>
Heroin is the big media bad guy now.<BR>
<BR>
Phill "hoping not to start a flame war with his first post" Webb<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2675<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2676<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Rats<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: muzzle flashes and grenades<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Tissue as cover (was: Gun Loving PCs)<BR>
RE: risk perception [OT]<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons (Broomhandle/Luger)<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: MOS<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 01:36:53 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Interestingly, the violent crime rate here in the States seem to be<BR>
> declining.  At the same time that more and more states are passing<BR>
> liberalized concealed carry laws.  Hmmmmm.<BR>
<BR>
The crime rate is declining in the US and the reason is *very* easy <BR>
to explain.  Crime rates in the US correlates *very* closely with the <BR>
numbers of people in the late teens and early 20s (primarily with <BR>
the numbers of young men).  As those vary the crime rate varies.  <BR>
As the population ages the crime rates goes down.  No correlation <BR>
between easy access to firearms and crime rate reduction has ever <BR>
been proven.  I'd personally expect the reverse, but that also <BR>
doesn't seem terribly well supported.  In both local and national <BR>
studies, carry concealed weapon laws basically does not seem to <BR>
affect the violent crime rate to any noticeable degree.    <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:46:58 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
On 26 Jun 00, at 21:28, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If they're *that* big, I'll use a shotgun, thank you very much. Or<BR>
> maybe the SKS with some of the Russian steel-core ammo. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Good stuff, that. It'll go through 1/4" mild steel plate at 15 yards, <BR>
and right through a goat long-ways at 50 yards.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:46:58 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
On 26 Jun 00, at 21:18, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I think the easterners might be shocked by my ammo though. I bought a<BR>
> *case* of SKS ammo...<BR>
<BR>
My friend and I each bought a Chinese SKS for plinking. We'd buy a case <BR>
of ammo each and I'd last us about a weekend (two if we were <BR>
conservative). After he got a semi-auto AK-47 replica we had to buy <BR>
more ammo, as we weasted less time reloading.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:46:57 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
On 27 Jun 00, at 14:23, Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
> <BR>
>  My characters usually have a generic large automatic pistol (or an<BR>
> automatic Snub pistol), and a body pistol (though I usually convince an<BR>
> equally gun-nut referee to allow me to cook up something more along the<BR>
> lines of the COP .357 than that wheezy little 5mm round for the body<BR>
> pistol. One time I was actually considering having my character hand load<BR>
> and insert an accelerator rifle slug into the bottom of a 12mm hollow-base<BR>
> wadcutter, but came to my senses.  [and if Ditzie wants to use that, she<BR>
> will have to pay my Aslan merc a nice royalty])<BR>
<BR>
My GM won't let my use FF&S to design my own guns anymore :( I had a <BR>
character with a gun based on the 10mm FrintArms HandCannon from Iain <BR>
M. Banks' _Against a Dark Backgound_. I don't think he realised just <BR>
how much punch a TL12 ETC pistol can have when using a DS/HEAP ammo mix <BR>
can have.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:01:29 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Rats<BR>
<BR>
On 27 Jun 00, at 13:53, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  Capybaras do get big, but they are no closer to rats than humans are<BR>
>  to Rhesus monkeys.  Again, I am not saying that you have not seen<BR>
>  huge rats, but I have seen people mistake muskrat and even beaver for<BR>
>  big rats.<BR>
<BR>
Not in this country - there ain't none. However I had had someone tell <BR>
me a polecat was a rat. All I can say is that there are some seriously <BR>
blind and/or ignorant people in this country. Definately some of <BR>
the later - we recently had some scorpians get loose and someone saw <BR>
them and didn't report it because he didn't know there aren't <BR>
(weren't) any in NZ.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:05:28 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
On 27 Jun 00, at 21:31, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, what do you expect? He can't legally own a gun to deal with<BR>
> intruders, AND THEY KNOW IT.<BR>
<BR>
Which is why NZ, Australia and the UK tend to have break-ins at night, <BR>
and in the US they tend to be during daylight hours. In the US getting <BR>
shot is a big (perceived) risk so the burglar's break-in when nobody's <BR>
home. Here they break-in at night so it's harder to see them when <BR>
they're coming or going.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:21:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: muzzle flashes and grenades<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>       My least favorite grenades are the ones my favorite local Traveller ref<BR>
> employs.  Unfettered by realism considerations, he has the player pick<BR>
> their target (up to about 60 meters away!), then determines the actual<BR>
> impact spot by rolling 1D for direction from target spot, and roll another<BR>
> 1D for distance from that spot....times 10 meters.  The two most obvious<BR>
> anomalies produced with this system are that you *cannot* hit your target<BR>
> spot directly because there will *always* be variations, and there is a<BR>
> fairly good chance that you will impact somewhere closer to yourself than<BR>
> your enemy.<BR>
<BR>
The rules I recall for throwing damn near *anything* from D&D are<BR>
better than *that*. As I recall it was 2D-7 for range, with negative<BR>
numbers being undershoots and positive numbers being overshoots.<BR>
Sideways displacement was determined by another roll that I don't<BR>
recall, but similarly "peaked".<BR>
<BR>
This clusters impacts around the target, and (as the sideways roll used<BR>
smaller dice) gave the proper "ellipse" pattern.<BR>
<BR>
> Damage is then resolved without regard to the type of the<BR>
> grenade, degrees of cover, how confined the space is, etc.  Grenade sumps<BR>
> definitely would not help one bit in his universe.  And the hero who throws<BR>
> himself on a grenade to save his buddies would find that he and his buddies<BR>
> all take equal amounts of damage.   Needless to say, I avoid grenade use in<BR>
> his game.  Although it is comforting to think I could actually throw a<BR>
> grenade 60 meters, as far as he knows.<BR>
<BR>
Yech!<BR>
<BR>
>    My most favorite grenade is the very first one I threw in boot camp.  The<BR>
> grenade range instructor took great pains to make sure we understood we had<BR>
> to *instantly* do *exactly* what he told us, when he told us.  Which is<BR>
> Marine Corps discipline beat into recruits constantly, anyway.  When it was<BR>
> my turn, I was in the pit with him and he instructed me to pull the pin,<BR>
> then told me to put my arm back to throw, then he started giving me what<BR>
> apparently was a little pep talk, but it went something like this (profuse<BR>
> swearing deleted):  "I want you to take that bad boy, and throw it as far<BR>
> as you can."  Instantly and obediently, I threw it as far as I could.  Man<BR>
> did he get ticked!  "Why did you throw that grenade?" he screamed (again,<BR>
> profuse swearing deleted).  "Sir, because the sergeant told the private to,<BR>
> sir!"  ("the private' being how we referred to ourselves)  His mouth was<BR>
> wide open as he was about to launch a stream of invective, threats, and<BR>
> abuse at me.  He just looked at me.  He closed his mouth.  Then he said,<BR>
> "get the [deleted] out of here" and went on to the next private. <BR>
<BR>
I hope he revised his "script" after that. I'd probably have done the<BR>
same thing you did. And I'm rather *worried* about folks who *didn't*!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 00:59:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/27/00 9:59 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> - PC 3 is from a low tech world and used  to  carry  a  flintlock<BR>
>>> pistol.  Then one day, when trying to capture some bad guys  on<BR>
>>> his own, he made the mistake of  firing  a  warning  shot  over<BR>
>>> their heads ... and was  promptly  mugged  while  he  tried  to<BR>
>>> reload.  The group have given  him  a  9mm  autopistol now.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> *Nobody* with any flintlock experience would make *that* mistake.<BR>
>> That's why it was common to carry 2 if not *4* pistols.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> My wife has a martial arts/ barbarian character who no longer uses guns.<BR>
> her character had an adventure with an exploding flintlock on the home<BR>
> world, and thinks we're all deranged to be walking around with these bombs.<BR>
><BR>
> A sword you can trust.<BR>
<BR>
Tell that to anyone who has seen a blade snap during practice...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:51:21 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 26 Jun 00, at 21:28, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > If they're *that* big, I'll use a shotgun, thank you very much. Or<BR>
> > maybe the SKS with some of the Russian steel-core ammo. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Good stuff, that. It'll go through 1/4" mild steel plate at 15 yards,<BR>
> and right through a goat long-ways at 50 yards.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
thats a 7.7 on the Ick factor scale for that mental image...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:54:41 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 27 Jun 00, at 14:23, Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
> ><BR>
> >  My characters usually have a generic large automatic pistol (or an<BR>
> > automatic Snub pistol), and a body pistol (though I usually convince an<BR>
> > equally gun-nut referee to allow me to cook up something more along the<BR>
> > lines of the COP .357 than that wheezy little 5mm round for the body<BR>
> > pistol. One time I was actually considering having my character hand load<BR>
> > and insert an accelerator rifle slug into the bottom of a 12mm hollow-base<BR>
> > wadcutter, but came to my senses.  [and if Ditzie wants to use that, she<BR>
> > will have to pay my Aslan merc a nice royalty])<BR>
><BR>
> My GM won't let my use FF&S to design my own guns anymore :( I had a<BR>
> character with a gun based on the 10mm FrintArms HandCannon from Iain<BR>
> M. Banks' _Against a Dark Backgound_. I don't think he realised just<BR>
> how much punch a TL12 ETC pistol can have when using a DS/HEAP ammo mix<BR>
> can have.<BR>
><BR>
> -<BR>
<BR>
What was the GPF (Goat Penetration Factor) of the weapon?<BR>
<BR>
In other words, how many small furry animals will it blow up??????????<BR>
Wahahahahahahaha . . . . eh.<BR>
<BR>
 Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 04:05:34 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 3:51 AM, Robert Houghton at rhoughto@one.net.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> On 26 Jun 00, at 21:28, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> If they're *that* big, I'll use a shotgun, thank you very much. Or<BR>
>>> maybe the SKS with some of the Russian steel-core ammo. :-)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Good stuff, that. It'll go through 1/4" mild steel plate at 15 yards,<BR>
>> and right through a goat long-ways at 50 yards.<BR>
>> <BR>
> <BR>
> thats a 7.7 on the Ick factor scale for that mental image...<BR>
> <BR>
> Other Rob<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well, if you like that sort of small caliber stuff.  I have some lovely<BR>
photos of watermelons being hit with my .458 win mag.  We won't mention the<BR>
crow.<BR>
<BR>
Here in Oregon, we are required to use expanding bullets on game.<BR>
Personally, I'd like to use that steel core stuff.  Less meat damage.<BR>
<BR>
We used to buy 7.62x39 by the ton.  Under $100 US per case lot.  I bought 20<BR>
cases at 1440 rnds per case and a 'Ben Franklin' each.  When Olympic Arms<BR>
made a pistol version of it AR-15 clone in 7.62, the gub'mint decided .30<BR>
Russian was pistol ammo, and banned the steel core as 'armor piercing ammo'.<BR>
Duh?  Gandads old .30-30 will do a number on a vest too.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Just curious if most referees get specific about ammunition type<BR>
(hollow point, AP, etc) or just let it slide.  I personally don't get that<BR>
specific, and assume the gun is using the best/most common for that weapon<BR>
- -- excluding things like LAGs, SNUB guns and such.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 04:13:40 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 3:54 AM, Robert Houghton at rhoughto@one.net.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> My GM won't let my use FF&S to design my own guns anymore :( I had a<BR>
>> character with a gun based on the 10mm FrintArms HandCannon from Iain<BR>
>> M. Banks' _Against a Dark Backgound_. I don't think he realised just<BR>
>> how much punch a TL12 ETC pistol can have when using a DS/HEAP ammo mix<BR>
>> can have.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> -<BR>
> <BR>
> What was the GPF (Goat Penetration Factor) of the weapon?<BR>
> <BR>
> In other words, how many small furry animals will it blow up??????????<BR>
> Wahahahahahahaha . . . . eh.<BR>
> <BR>
> Other Rob<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
This sounds like a question for Ian.  Query, according to FFS2, what is the<BR>
armor value of tissue?  How many goats are needed for good cover? (Hey, self<BR>
propelled sandbags!).<BR>
<BR>
This, naturally brings up the next obvious question, which I'm betting,<BR>
knowing who haunts this list, someone will know.  What is the armor value of<BR>
an innocent by-stander?<BR>
<BR>
I won't go into the question about who on this list would make the best<BR>
cover, although my value as barrier material seems to be going up as I get<BR>
older ("the advantage of the bipedal self propelled sandbag mark II is that<BR>
its bullet resistance can easily be increased with the application of<BR>
Hollandaise").<BR>
<BR>
Tod "OK, I'm getting silly now, which means it's time to sleep" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:34:20 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 4:13, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/28/00 3:54 AM, Robert Houghton at rhoughto@one.net.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This sounds like a question for Ian.  Query, according to FFS2, what is the<BR>
> armor value of tissue?  How many goats are needed for good cover? (Hey, self<BR>
> propelled sandbags!).<BR>
<BR>
> This, naturally brings up the next obvious question, which I'm betting,<BR>
> knowing who haunts this list, someone will know.  What is the armor value of<BR>
> an innocent by-stander?<BR>
<BR>
Under T4 and assuming the use of a slug-thrower, 3. This is the maximum <BR>
amount of penetration a single round can deliver to a human-sized (which <BR>
presumably includes Groats) target. Any penetration beyond this is lost <BR>
due to the bullet leaving the body.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:49:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> So the next question, ObTrav, is how many guns do your characters<BR>
> typically<BR>
> own.  I am especially curious about Eastern US players and all you<BR>
> non-America players.  I wonder if local culture effects perceptions on how<BR>
> many weapons a character need.  Do British or eastern US players feel that<BR>
> their characters are adequately armed with a few small arms?<BR>
<BR>
I'm from New Zealand and I sometimes play characters who feel they are<BR>
adequately armed<BR>
without any weapons. Largely because I personally feel that way all the time<BR>
anyway.<BR>
<BR>
If I was in a war zone I might change my mind, but in the sort of situations<BR>
I'm ever likely to get into, guns wouldn't help, they'd just get me<BR>
arrested.<BR>
<BR>
I had a character who felt adequately armed with a .22 target pistol. This<BR>
is because I read the story of a mob contract killer who never used anything<BR>
else.<BR>
<BR>
I had a marine commando sergenat character once who only felt adequately<BR>
armed when he had at least three Sykes-Fairburn style knives. Guns were just<BR>
too damn noisy.<BR>
<BR>
I have had a "Millenium's End" character who lead a group of operatives on<BR>
an industrial espionage mission expressly forbid all the other characters<BR>
from carrying any firearms.<BR>
<BR>
He finally relented a bit and let them put some weapons in the getaway car<BR>
"just in case"<BR>
The mission was completely succesful, and no shots were fired.<BR>
<BR>
Good operatives don't need guns, and carrying them just tempts to you to use<BR>
them.<BR>
If you really do need a gun, there's bound to be someone there you can take<BR>
one off.<BR>
<BR>
In most of our modern games, including our "Cops" game, if we ever had to<BR>
fire weapons off the range, it was usually considered a failed mission. In<BR>
the "cops" game we actually drew our weapons three times. We never fired<BR>
them in anger, though one player used his weapon to shoot at an inanimate<BR>
object.<BR>
<BR>
And frankly, from the real world of espionage, police work, and special ops,<BR>
rather than the movies, this is far more "realstic" than all the "gun-ho"<BR>
ness I see round here, which should be restricted to the battlefield.<BR>
<BR>
Well, you did ask.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
My<BR>
> players are<BR>
> all western type barrel-suckers (gun enthusiasts).  If their<BR>
> characters use<BR>
> guns, then they tend to have a lot. One of my players accumulated enough<BR>
> weapons to arms a small mercenary unit, and lived in a warehouse, vault so<BR>
> he could store them all.<BR>
><BR>
> Just curious<BR>
><BR>
> Tod "I have enough guns - just ask my wife" Glenn<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 04:43:15 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Tissue as cover (was: Gun Loving PCs)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 4:34 AM, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance at a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 28 Jun 00, at 4:13, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> on 6/28/00 3:54 AM, Robert Houghton at rhoughto@one.net.au wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> This sounds like a question for Ian.  Query, according to FFS2, what is the<BR>
>> armor value of tissue?  How many goats are needed for good cover? (Hey, self<BR>
>> propelled sandbags!).<BR>
> <BR>
>> This, naturally brings up the next obvious question, which I'm betting,<BR>
>> knowing who haunts this list, someone will know.  What is the armor value of<BR>
>> an innocent by-stander?<BR>
> <BR>
> Under T4 and assuming the use of a slug-thrower, 3. This is the maximum<BR>
> amount of penetration a single round can deliver to a human-sized (which<BR>
> presumably includes Groats) target. Any penetration beyond this is lost<BR>
> due to the bullet leaving the body.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
So the question becomes, if the bullet passes through, how much energy is<BR>
left, i.e.  how many innocent bystanders are required to stop a standard<BR>
auto-rifle round completely?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:45:27 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception [OT]<BR>
<BR>
Peter Trevor wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Other fun perceptions:<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>- Chance of death from taking Ecstasy: 1 in 10 million<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>And because alcohol is legal but Ecstasy isn't most people  think<BR>
>alcohol is safe and Ecstasy is not.  Ecstasy became illegal after<BR>
>a media frenzy about a teenage girl who died from a rare allergic<BR>
>reaction.<BR>
<BR>
Um... Where at, and when? Ecstasy (MDMA) became Class A in Britain in 1977,<BR>
with little fanfare. This was at the same time that several other<BR>
amphetamine related drugs were pushed into Class A. Incidentally, this<BR>
predates the widespread use of the drug in Britain by several years. It<BR>
became a Schedule I drug in the United States in 1985, again, with little<BR>
fanfare. I have never heard anyone suggest that this shift in legality was<BR>
brought about by a media frenzy.<BR>
<BR>
Still it was never "legal" in the sense that it had passed human trials and<BR>
was cleared for sale and use in various countries. MDMA saw little use, if<BR>
any, until it was "rediscovered" in the mid-70s. In fact, I would bet that<BR>
the "rediscovery" of drugs like MDMA had something to do with Britain's<BR>
decision to make it a Class A drug. Throughout the late 70s and into the 80s<BR>
it was used by a very small number of psychotherapists here in the States<BR>
and the effects were generally described as positive. I suspect the lack of<BR>
studies of toxicity and side effects had a lot to do with the shift in<BR>
status in the U.S. in '85.<BR>
<BR>
In the late 70s the recreational use of MDMA took off in the United States,<BR>
and in the mid-80s MDMA made it across the pond.<BR>
<BR>
While I have yet to read about about any "rare allergic reactions" to the<BR>
drug (although I don't doubt that they've happened), I have checked out<BR>
several studies on the drug and there is certainly an element of danger to<BR>
the drug. Overdoses do occur, and it is possible to die from such overdoses.<BR>
The drug has also been linked to liver damage. It can be fatal for people<BR>
with pre-existing heart conditions. The use of the drug has been linked to<BR>
depression, sleep problems, panic attacks and paranoia. Remember that mind<BR>
altering drugs, by their very nature of messing with the way people think,<BR>
increase the risk of accidents. MDMA is believed to be a contributing factor<BR>
in some accidental deaths. The drug also increases body temperature, which<BR>
in some situations can be pretty unpleasant and possibly fatal.<BR>
<BR>
The most recent human studies, done within the last year or two, indicate<BR>
that MDMA use may impair both memory and cognitive ability. This impairment<BR>
may be long-term, which is supported by tests on primates and what is known<BR>
of two closely related drugs, MDA and methamphetamine. These are not,<BR>
incidentally, "rare allergic reactions", such impairment seems to be par for<BR>
the course. MDMA also seems to have other effects on the brain, which may or<BR>
may not be detrimental.<BR>
<BR>
To branch out a bit, poor synthesis can create similar drugs which may be<BR>
more dangerous. Intentional misrepresentation of other drugs, such as PMA,<BR>
is also a hazard. PMA has been linked to fatalities in Australia, Canada and<BR>
the U.S. and a PMA overdose would appear to be an extremely unpleasant way<BR>
to die.<BR>
<BR>
I'm extremely sorry for the use of all of this bandwidth here, folks, but I<BR>
think that it's irresponsible to make the claim that something is "safe"<BR>
when there's a considerable body of research which would appear to claim<BR>
otherwise. Since I've hit my own personal off-topic quota for the past few<BR>
days, I feel a little guilty. On the other hand, I would feel more guilty if<BR>
I didn't take the time out to respond here.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:59:58 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 28 Jun 00, at 4:13, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > on 6/28/00 3:54 AM, Robert Houghton at rhoughto@one.net.au wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > This sounds like a question for Ian.  Query, according to FFS2, what is the<BR>
> > armor value of tissue?  How many goats are needed for good cover? (Hey, self<BR>
> > propelled sandbags!).<BR>
><BR>
> > This, naturally brings up the next obvious question, which I'm betting,<BR>
> > knowing who haunts this list, someone will know.  What is the armor value of<BR>
> > an innocent by-stander?<BR>
><BR>
> Under T4 and assuming the use of a slug-thrower, 3. This is the maximum<BR>
> amount of penetration a single round can deliver to a human-sized (which<BR>
> presumably includes Groats) target. Any penetration beyond this is lost<BR>
> due to the bullet leaving the body.<BR>
<BR>
Funny...and her's me thinking groats were some kind of cereal product...although a<BR>
bag of wheat would probably be a good defense...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:01:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons (Broomhandle/Luger)<BR>
<BR>
 Sounds like the gun my gunsmith friend owned for a while. It was either a<BR>
"broomhandle" Mauser or a Luger. It came in a nice case which<BR>
 contained the pistol, an 18 inch barrel, a wooden holster that doubled as a<BR>
stock, an extended magazine, etc. I seem to recall that some versions<BR>
included a silencer. All in a case small enough that *two* of  them would<BR>
fit in many attache cases, and it came this way from the<BR>
 *factory*.<BR>
<BR>
 Now *that* is a nice weapon "system" if you have a decent round for it, and<BR>
maybe an add-on scope.<BR>
<BR>
 Anybody recognize it? (And yes, I'm aware that it's probably either illegal<BR>
now, or requires a *lot* of paperwork and "transfer tax").<BR>
<BR>
 I think a TL adjusted version would be a nice thing to add to the weapons<BR>
list in Traveller. And I can just about *guarantee* that  customs officials<BR>
will take extreme interest in anybody carrying the "full kit".<BR>
<BR>
First off, I doubt seriously if either of the weapons mentioned above would<BR>
function with a Suppressor. However, Mauser DID make a run of 11"<BR>
Barreled/Stocked Lugers in 9mm Caliber in the early 80's: I imagine this is<BR>
what he had, as they were all presented in fitted cases.  Original Luger<BR>
Carbines command amazing prices: upwards of $5000 (And ALL of them were<BR>
chambered for the .30 Luger).<BR>
<BR>
Slightly OT: Adding a suppressor to a pistol is a non-trivial exercise most<BR>
of the time. Most centerfire handguns, until fairly recently, would simply<BR>
not function normally with a suppressor attached. The Mausers and Lugers<BR>
were very ammunition sensitive to begin with: adding an extra 6 to 12 ounces<BR>
of weight on the end of the barrel would result in the weapon not being able<BR>
to function except as a manual repeater. Newer model suppressors introduced<BR>
in the late 80's /early 90's overcame this problem by incorporating a recoil<BR>
enhancing device to facilitate functioning.<BR>
<BR>
Matt Helton<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:41:43 +0300<BR>
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
	All my players have military background and two of us have been<BR>
	involved in weapon system design and testing, so none of us<BR>
	appear to be suffering from hoplophobia. We have used FF&S and<BR>
	3G3 for designing new weapons for the game, and made some<BR>
	modifications for the design rules when the FF&S components were<BR>
	worse than those we had in real life.<BR>
<BR>
	Preferred weapons:<BR>
<BR>
PC 1	Bullpup gauss rifle (8 kJ muzzle energy) resembling FN P90 PDW,<BR>
	short enough to be hidden under a coat. Couple of TL-14 multi-<BR>
	purpose hand grenades. "Lazer Blade" melee weapon.<BR>
<BR>
PC 2	Gauss rifle with 20 mm massdriver grenade launcher (a TL-14<BR>
	OICW). Superdense bayonet. Sometimes uses 7-tube Metalstorm<BR>
	assault rifle.<BR>
<BR>
PC 3	Gauss rifle with 40 mm RAM launcher. Two gauss pistols.<BR>
	Katana made of TL-14 polymer/superdense laminate (san-mai<BR>
	construction). Impact-hardening polymer gloves. Sometimes<BR>
	uses Anti-Material massdriver with sniper scope.<BR>
<BR>
PC 4	15 mm massdriver shotgun, several types of ammunition<BR>
	(birdshot, buckshot, flechettes, brenneken slugs and HEP<BR>
	grenades). The shotguns is either old-style stockless with<BR>
	tubular underbarrel magazine or a full-auto bullpup with box<BR>
	magazines. Gauss pistol.<BR>
- --<BR>
       Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi<BR>
       Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:52:04 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: MOS<BR>
<BR>
> I've been curious what kind of battery Marc had.  Hawks?  .50 cals?<BR>
>  Something else?<BR>
<BR>
Vulcan APC. <BR>
<BR>
LKW <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2676<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2677<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
Re: On Killing, etc (longish)<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
RE: big pointy teeth<BR>
RE: risk perception [OT]<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Grenade rules<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2674<BR>
Prefixes (Was RE: Hitting Ships)<BR>
RE: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
Prefixes (Was RE: Hitting Ships)<BR>
Re: Views from space<BR>
Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 05:02:21 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
> > I haven't seen a nutria yet, but I have seen racoons, deer, and possum<BR>
> > in the city. And found tracks that I suspect were elk in Forest Park.<BR>
> Yes, but Forest Park is the largest park in the US that falls within a city<BR>
> limits.  We're not talking urban green strip.  And for all you New Yorkers<BR>
> out there: Central Park is tiny.<BR>
<BR>
How big is Forest Park?<BR>
<BR>
Chugach State Park in Alaska is 495,000 acres (about 773 <BR>
square miles and about 2,000 sq. km). It is within the<BR>
boundaries of the Municipality of Anchorage. (A municipality<BR>
is similar to a combined city & county).<BR>
It borders the (5.6 million acre) Chugach National Forest<BR>
and a number of other federal, state, and native corporation,<BR>
lands.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Most planets in Traveller have fairly low populations<BR>
with about 500,000 being the statistically expected result.<BR>
Land should be cheap on most planets. Environmental concerns<BR>
are probably less (possibly much less) than on modern day Earth. <BR>
<BR>
Typical attitude on a low population planet: "So what if <BR>
dumping the mine tailings into the river will kill all life <BR>
within its watershed, that's only 5 million hectares. <BR>
(about 3,100 square miles) It's a big planet and we've got tens <BR>
of thousands more planets."<BR>
<BR>
Just like any other good the value that an individual places<BR>
on the environmental will depend on how much of it<BR>
is available. (As quantity supplied increases market equilibrium<BR>
price decreases) Given that (on non high pop planets) much more<BR>
environment is available it should be much less valuable. OTOH<BR>
if most planetary environments have already been wrecked by<BR>
past reckless pollution then pristine environments may be<BR>
valuable.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:16:59 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 2:17 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> This is exactly why the 5.56x45mm ball round proved to be 11% <BR>
> more lethal<BR>
> than the 7.62x51mm ball.  The .223 round is less stable when <BR>
> transiting<BR>
> media, and generally begins tumbling within an inch of <BR>
> penetration.  The<BR>
> .308 is nice and stable, and generally doesn't start to <BR>
> tumble until after<BR>
> about 10 inches, barely within the width of the average human torso.<BR>
<BR>
I understand what you are saying, but I also understand that at the time<BR>
of it's introduction the 5.56mm was decried for it's poor stopping power<BR>
compared to the 7.62, often needing several hits to put a man down<BR>
compared to one from the 7.62. <BR>
<BR>
I suppose that the higher lethality you mention is due to the fact that<BR>
the wounds caused do more internal damage, cavitation, and bleeding due<BR>
to tumbling, which leads to greater mortality down the road, but the<BR>
actual impact energy is lower and so doesn't tend to put the target down<BR>
with one shot. Yes, he's more likely to die in the hospital later, but<BR>
in the meantime he's still shooting back. The target hit with the 7.62<BR>
will go down due to the impact, and not get up, but has a better<BR>
survival chance due to the 'cleaner' wound.<BR>
<BR>
Does that sound right to you?<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:14:38 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 6:02 AM<BR>
> My wife has a martial arts/ barbarian character who no longer <BR>
> uses guns.<BR>
> her character had an adventure with an exploding flintlock on the home<BR>
> world, and thinks we're all deranged to be walking around <BR>
> with these bombs.<BR>
> <BR>
> A sword you can trust.<BR>
<BR>
"Aye! 'Till t'bastard breaks on yer!"<BR>
<BR>
My character was always having his bastard sword broken in RQ, so he<BR>
ended up carrying two on his person, and another 2 on his horse...<BR>
<BR>
After a spate of such incidents we were watching Conan The Barbarian on<BR>
VCR, when Conans father, a smith, speaks to the young Conan and says of<BR>
a sword "This is Steel! *This* you can trust!", when I came out with the<BR>
above quote, much to everyone's amusement <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:03:57 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Say a warning "Be careful, the fish get kinda big out there", followed<BR>
>by the players landing on a small island (complete with some vegetation)<BR>
>for a break, and starting a fire to cook some fish or some such, and<BR>
>*waking up* the huge "fish" on whose back they've landed?<BR>
<BR>
To quote from Terry Pratchett:<BR>
<BR>
Rincewind:	"Do you think grandfather will notice?"<BR>
Young Troll:	"Bound to - they've lit the campfire in his mouth"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:06:30 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
On the rare cases I actually play rather than ref, and in my solo games:<BR>
<BR>
One little gun (9mm Auto Pistol) for holding my character's trousers up.<BR>
One big gun (Carbine) for when he has to get out of his ship and walk.<BR>
Very rarely: an SMG just for the hell of it.<BR>
<BR>
When other characters are really tooled up, I will make the concession of<BR>
an ACR, with RAM grenades for special occasions.<BR>
<BR>
I'm a little fond of Combat Environment suits as general purpose outdoor<BR>
survival gear, but never, of course, in civilised environments.<BR>
<BR>
My characters tend to be Scouts or Merchants without a lot of combat<BR>
skills, although I have experimented with planetary surface oriented<BR>
(Contact and Liaison) Scouts, who are basically moderately capable<BR>
gun-bunnies.  These work best in GT, but can be fudged in CT through<BR>
hand-picking your skills.<BR>
<BR>
I'm considering adding a mercenary subsidiary to my solo game's merchant<BR>
company.  This will be an excuse to play with Striker some more.  My PCs<BR>
will then have their own company of Grav Tanks to play with....  <BR>
<BR>
(Ouzo says:  "hey, I just met this guy in a bar, and he says he knows where<BR>
there are some old abandoned Zhodani grav vehicles left over from the last<BR>
war.  Whaddaya reckon we salvage them!"<BR>
<BR>
Hawkins sighs, and thinks:  "Why did I ever bother going straight? <BR>
Smuggling was just so easy.  Maybe I shouldn't have gone into partnership<BR>
with the Ine Givar and a Corsair band...")<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:34:33 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:<BR>
> >Actually, the Terrans did have sleeper ships. <BR>
> <BR>
> And there were an undisclosed number of other sleeper ships. Two examples of<BR>
> worlds also settled by Solomani sleeper ships are Victoria/Lanth and<BR>
> Algine/Regina (though Algine had a prior population (IMO 3rd Wave Vilani)).<BR>
<BR>
Alright, alright. Seeing as no one has seen fit to comment on the <BR>
rest of my post, I'll assume that this error aside that you're all<BR>
fully convinced that the Vilani are not a bunch of lumps on a bump.<BR>
<BR>
My mistake that the Terrans did indeed dispatch sleeper ships, although<BR>
not with the intent of establishing an empire as far as I can tell.<BR>
The Vilani sleeper ships went to very nearby planets with the intent of <BR>
creating a local sublight trading empire. The Terran ships were <BR>
apparently very long range (to the Marches from terra by sublight? Wow)<BR>
settlement missions with a goal I'm not sure I really understand.<BR>
<BR>
I'll look up the time ref regarding when the change in Vilani society <BR>
happened when I have a chance.<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:52:51 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
David Summers wrote :-<BR>
> You might have a short period where the threat is less,<BR>
> but (like the evolution of antibiotic resitant bacteria<BR>
> today) it won't take them long to optimize for this<BR>
> situation.<BR>
<BR>
This is one of the points where we will agree to disagree.<BR>
In the RW, over evolutionary time, the subset of microbes that can live<BR>
on us is a middling small one, compared to the guesstimated total.<BR>
Animals and plants present a variety of environments for bacteria to<BR>
colonise.<BR>
<BR>
> However, why does it have to so virulant that it limits<BR>
> its propigation by killing the host? (assuming that it can also<BR>
> live outside the host).<BR>
<BR>
They don't have to be - but the canonical Vilani backwardness in the<BR>
biosciences demands it, IMHO, if they couldn't cope with the Plague(s)<BR>
of Duskir in the IW period. <BR>
<BR>
It implies a mind-buggering ignorance of epidemiology, microbiology and<BR>
infectious disease despite having an interstellar trading empire for<BR>
several milennia.<BR>
<BR>
Nit :- All (non-pathogenic/commensal) bacteria effectively live outside<BR>
our bodies, unless you stretch the definition to include mitochondria.<BR>
<BR>
I noted in an earlier post that colonisation is a certainty.<BR>
You seemed to neglect the difference between this and the development of<BR>
pathology in the host.<BR>
<BR>
I take it (correct me if I'm wrong) that your position is as follows :-<BR>
<BR>
There is no difference in the burden of infectious disease in the humans<BR>
transplanted to Vland/the stay at homes, until the advent of sanitation<BR>
+/- effective antimicrobials. Local micro-organisms move into the niches <BR>
that certain Earthly bugs occupied.<BR>
<BR>
This is despite the differences in biology, the presence of competent<BR>
host immunity and the lack of animal and environmental reservoirs, due<BR>
to competition/nutrient lack, etc. <BR>
<BR>
IMHO, the best way to explain the way the story line has gone is :-<BR>
Vland microbes that live on humans are 'one-trick ponies' like<BR>
antibiotic resistant organisms, and other extremophiles. They do not<BR>
fare well in other niches or the presence of competitors.<BR>
(Remove the antibiotics and MRSA, etc. get crowded out by the<BR>
non-resistant varieties).<BR>
<BR>
Our commensals similarly failed to thrive in the wilds of Vland.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:02:37 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: On Killing, etc (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Russell Bornschlegel writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>So I'd say that an "aversion to killing" is an ESS, but an "aversion to <BR>
>fighting" isn't an ESS - it doesn't perform well against a player who is <BR>
>willing to fight. So we shouldn't (according to evolutionary game theory) <BR>
>have a universal innate aversion to fighting. And fighting with weapons <BR>
>or martial arts training can all-to-easily lead to killing.<BR>
<BR>
	What it comes down to is: on average, which strategy gives your<BR>
	genes the best chance to pass on to the next generation?<BR>
	Simplistically, if a male attacks any other male that he sees,<BR>
	and all the other males run away, the fighter may do well if<BR>
	he can deny access to the females, food, shelter, etc.  In<BR>
	this case the "fighter genes" should increase in the population.<BR>
	On the other hand, if one male always runs away from other males<BR>
	while the rest fight every time they meet, the fighters will be<BR>
	constantly fighting, being killed or injured and perhaps not<BR>
	passing along their genes.  In this case, the "run away" genes<BR>
	may increase in the population.  Somewhere in between there may<BR>
	be a balance, say 60% runners and 40% fighters, where increasing<BR>
	either group reduces the average reproduction of individuals in<BR>
	that group.  This balance is an evolutionarily stable strategy<BR>
	(ESS).<BR>
<BR>
	Naturally, the situation tends to be more complex.  A given<BR>
	individual may choose to be a fighter at some times and a runner<BR>
	at others.  Individuals are not all created equal, and relative<BR>
	size may be important in determining the optimal behaviour in an<BR>
	encounter.  Animals may take the time to evaluate others animals,<BR>
	and often attempt to display themselves in a way that will disuade<BR>
	their opponent from potentially costly fighting.  Close relatives<BR>
	tend to carry many of the same genes, so killing a relative may<BR>
	reduce the number of your genes that get passed on to the next<BR>
	generation.  Behaviour in different situations might not be<BR>
	entirely independant, and a generally aggressive animal might<BR>
	tend to be aggressive even when this is not the best approach.<BR>
	This is an active area of research in behavioural biology.<BR>
<BR>
	The most basic ObTrav is that animals on various worlds will<BR>
	behave in a way that should maximize their genetic contribution<BR>
	to the next generation on that world.  Humans probably are recent<BR>
	arrivals, and local wildlife may not behave appropriately towards<BR>
	them.  Still, if some 10-ton unisex sloth on planet X has no natural<BR>
	enemies, it will probably not bother to attack humans (it will likely<BR>
	ignore us altogether unless it thinks we are competing for food,<BR>
	perhaps.  25 kg predators are unlikely to attack humans unless they<BR>
	travel in groups and prey on 50-100 kg prey normally.  Just think<BR>
	about the average reproductive success of the animal type in question.<BR>
<BR>
	For humans, we are highly social creatures.  This means that we must<BR>
	keep aggression down to some extent, particularly to members of our<BR>
	group.  I am sure that there is a genetic basis for this, but<BR>
	environment obviously plays a big roll.  Within our group, a little<BR>
	fighting may be good for individuals (improve social status, access<BR>
	to mates and food, etc.), but killing may be counter-productive (if<BR>
	members of your group are related, as they often are).  It's pretty<BR>
	speculative, and it is hard to avoid bias.  Certainly, modern weapons<BR>
	have drastically changed the nature of fighting, but killing outsiders<BR>
	has probably always been acceptable (as long as the risk to self isn't<BR>
	too bad).  Perhaps the changes in attitudes towards killing have to do<BR>
	with thinking of fewer people as "others" and more as "us."  In any<BR>
	event, we do not live in the kind of society that we evolved to survive<BR>
	in, and our behaviours may often be maladaptive.<BR>
<BR>
	Sorry for the length, I'll shut up now.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:09:49 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>>>You don't know some of the rats I see coming off the River. (I'm in Co-op<BR>
>>>>City myself.) Size of small dogs some of them.<BR>
>>A large rat might be 1 lb, though there may be exceptional cases.<BR>
>>I must admit that I tend to be skeptical about reports of 10 lb<BR>
>>rats, but I cannot dismiss them outright.  The ObTrav is, how<BR>
>>often will the PCs be given exagerated descriptions of local<BR>
>>wildlife?<BR>
>I've seen rats larger than the smaller cats and dogs I've encountered.<BR>
>10 lbs, no. 2 lbs? I wouldn't be surprised.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	A 2 lb rat would not surprise me, but that is still pretty small.<BR>
	A Chihuahua is about 1-3 kg (2.2-6.6 lbs) according to the web site<BR>
	I checked (A typical house cat is easily double that).  So yes,<BR>
	the very largest rats may be as large as the very smallest dogs.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:11:11 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: big pointy teeth<BR>
<BR>
Mark Urbin writes:<BR>
>>often will the PCs be given exagerated descriptions of local<BR>
>>wildlife?<BR>
>It may *look* like an ordinary rabbit, but it's got it's got big pointy<BR>
teeth!<BR>
<BR>
	I think I've soiled my BD.  :(<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:26:04 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception [OT]<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
> Um... Where at, and when? Ecstasy (MDMA) became Class A in<BR>
> Britain in 1977, with little fanfare. This was at the same time<BR>
> that several other amphetamine related drugs were pushed into<BR>
> Class A. Incidentally, this predates the widespread use of the<BR>
> drug in Britain by several years. It became a Schedule I drug<BR>
> in the United States in 1985, again, with little fanfare. I<BR>
> have never heard anyone suggest that this shift in legality<BR>
> was brought about by a media frenzy.<BR>
<snip><BR>
> While I have yet to read about about any "rare allergic<BR>
> reactions" to the drug (although I don't doubt that they've<BR>
> happened),<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
You sound very knowledgeable, you may be right.<BR>
<BR>
With regard to the legal status of Ecstasy prior to the  case  of<BR>
Leah Betts I was 'quoting' from 'common knowledge' ...  which  is<BR>
itself a product of media (dis)information.  Taking a quick  poll<BR>
in the office reveals the *perception* to be that Ecstasy  was  a<BR>
"designer drug", ie chemists had found a legal loophole which was<BR>
closed after the Leah Betts case.<BR>
<BR>
The mid 90's  "media  frenzy"  was  something  I  witnessed.  But<BR>
perhaps the word "frenzy" is overstating the matter.<BR>
<BR>
With regard to "rare allergic reactions" my source was 2 separate<BR>
1-hour TV documentaries by  different  TV  channels.  One  was  a<BR>
science documentary on risk perception  in  general,  one  was  a<BR>
current affairs documentary on the Leah Betts case.  In this case<BR>
a teenage girl (named Leah Betts) rose to national  attention  in<BR>
the UK for about 2 weeks  in  November  1995.  She  had  taken  a<BR>
single Ecstasy pill (along with several strong drinks and  smoked<BR>
cannabis) and after a while began to feel  unwell.  Thinking  she<BR>
was dehydrated she had drunk loads of water but what had actually<BR>
happened was her kidneys had shut down  ...  and  she  died.  The<BR>
Leah Betts documentary used the phrase "rare  allergic  reaction".<BR>
In the risk perception documentary they covered  the  Leah  Betts<BR>
situation and interviewed a man identified as  the  UK's  leading<BR>
expert on poisons and poisonous  substances.  (I  have  forgotten<BR>
his name but I think I have the documentary on tape somewhere  so<BR>
I can hunt it up for you if  you  wish.)  Doctor  <whatever>  had<BR>
become a minor celebrity during the Leah  Betts  media  attention<BR>
and was often asked by journalists  "Is  Ecstasy  dangerous?"  to<BR>
which he'd reply "Yes, Ecstasy was dangerous."  However, in  this<BR>
documentary he claimed that what he'd  actually  said  was  "Yes,<BR>
Ecstasy was dangerous, but not as dangerous as alcohol." but  the<BR>
journalists had always edited out the last  part.  (He  was  very<BR>
annoyed by this.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
> I'm extremely sorry for the use of all of this bandwidth here,<BR>
> folks, but I think that it's irresponsible to make the claim<BR>
> that something is "safe" when there's a considerable body of<BR>
> research which would appear to claim otherwise. Since I've hit<BR>
> my own personal off-topic quota for the past few days, I feel a<BR>
> little guilty. On the other hand, I would feel more guilty if<BR>
> I didn't take the time out to respond here.<BR>
<BR>
Please don't feel guilty about correcting  any  misconceptions  I<BR>
might have put forward - I see the TML as an educational resource<BR>
as well as a recreational one.  And  I  didn't  *intend*  to  say<BR>
theat Ecstasy was safe (okay I did say that but I  mistyped).  My<BR>
layman's understanding of the dangers of Ecstasy  (based  on  the<BR>
sources mentioned above) are that *nothing*  is  safe,  but  that<BR>
(short term at least) Ecstasy was saf*er* than alcohol (which  is<BR>
also not safe).  I have also been led to believe that  there  are<BR>
long term side-effects which make this drug "not good" and I  did<BR>
mention this in a later post.  (There was  an  editorial  in  New<BR>
Scientist in 1997 which critisised the media  hype  over  Ecstasy<BR>
risks.)<BR>
<BR>
This topic was originally about perception of risk  not  matching<BR>
reality ... I guess if anything this post shows that  no  one  is<BR>
immune.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:46:01 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
Don't put too much stock in that "Hmmmmm" over liberalized concealed weapon<BR>
laws. Violent crime has been declining for years, most of the 1990s, and<BR>
there's a lot of conjecture over why. Some of the statisticians involved<BR>
noticed that crime declined when the age cohort born around 1973 and later<BR>
started getting into their main crime years (young adult to 20s). That leads<BR>
to conjecture that the legalization of abortion (and corresponding decrease<BR>
in unwanted, poverty-ridden pregnancies that are excellent breeding grounds<BR>
for poorly socialized goons) and late effects of the Great Society reforms<BR>
have had a positive impact.<BR>
Of course, violent crime has also taken a noticeable blip upward according<BR>
to statistics released a couple weeks ago (read about it in my Sunday<BR>
paper). It's too early to determine why, of course.<BR>
My point? Don't underestimate the power of subtle population changes and<BR>
pressures on long term gradual change. Don't trust quick-fix or hot-button<BR>
explanations. There are generally too simplistic to be true.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:09:38 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
Interestingly, the violent crime rate here in the States seem to be<BR>
declining.  At the same time that more and more states are passing<BR>
liberalized concealed carry laws.  Hmmmmm.<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:49:41 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Grenade rules<BR>
<BR>
	Tod, your grenade rules fit MTU perfectly.  Thanks for sharing them.<BR>
<BR>
	I especially like that you treat frag effects as shotgun.<BR>
<BR>
	When you have a standard miss, do you roll dice to determine how far off<BR>
target the grenade lands?  Also, you let a miss go long, left, or right,<BR>
but not land short.  Or was that omitted from your email unintentionally?<BR>
<BR>
	Your frag-grenade-with-phosphorous cocktail sounds perfect.  I've never<BR>
understood why we don't encounter that design all the time in real life<BR>
militaries.  Is it a Geneva Convention thing or something?<BR>
<BR>
	One last question.  Do you modify blast effects for individuals being in<BR>
an enclosed space with the explosion?  A room with closed doors and windows<BR>
is a really lousy place to be standing as far as concussion effects are<BR>
concerned.  Open the doors, and things get better (may or may not save your<BR>
life).<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning (who doesn't even need to write Tod's grenade rules down because<BR>
they are so intuitive)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:58:18 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2674<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 at 19:27 PDT, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
>All the essentials of the defensive fighting position. Thanks to the army, I<BR>
>can remember this 20 years later. And is use it every day as an IT<BR>
>consultant 8)<BR>
><BR>
>Tod<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	I am visualizing each packet in a network going through this routine.<BR>
<BR>
	Sorry, I missed that particular piece of training.  Either because I was<BR>
in a different branch than you, or because I was arty and not a grunt.<BR>
<BR>
	Peace.<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:50:38 -0400<BR>
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net><BR>
Subject: Prefixes (Was RE: Hitting Ships)<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:02:07 PST<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> And a handy list of prefixes:<BR>
> <BR>
> 1e24   Y   yotto<BR>
> 1e21   Z   zetta<BR>
> 1e18   E   exa<BR>
> 1e15   P   peta<BR>
> 1e12   T   tera<BR>
> 1e9    G   giga<BR>
> 1e6    M   mega<BR>
> 1e3    k   kilo<BR>
> 1e2    h   hecto<BR>
> 1e1    da  deka<BR>
> 1<BR>
> 1e-1   d   deci<BR>
> 1e-2   c   centi<BR>
> 1e-3   m   milli<BR>
> 1e-6      micro<BR>
> 1e-9   n   nano<BR>
> 1e-12  p   pico<BR>
> 1e-15  f   femto<BR>
> 1e-18  a   atto<BR>
> 1e-21  z   zepto<BR>
> 1e-24  y   yocto<BR>
> <BR>
> Note that prefixes are *never* combined. So it's 1 Mg, not 1 kkg.<BR>
> <BR>
	Are Zetta-/Yotto- really official, real prefixes? I've seen Exa-<BR>
before, but never anything beyond that.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
    Thomas Jones-Low<BR>
    tjoneslo@together.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:07:51 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Ethan Henry [mailto:egh@klg.com]<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 2:35 PM<BR>
<BR>
> Alright, alright. Seeing as no one has seen fit to comment on the <BR>
> rest of my post, I'll assume that this error aside that you're all<BR>
> fully convinced that the Vilani are not a bunch of lumps on a bump.<BR>
<BR>
Weeeellll... The Vilani did have spaceflight for a couple of thousand<BR>
years (IIRC, my books are at home...) before developing Jump technology,<BR>
whereas the Solomani 'invent' Jump technology after only a century of<BR>
Space flight.<BR>
<BR>
I wouldn't exactly call the Vilani 'lumps on a bump' but they are hardly<BR>
a culture of innovation.<BR>
<BR>
As to why the Vilani and the Zhodani were both spacefaring before the<BR>
Solomani hit the Neolithic, I point you in the direction of the most<BR>
recent Ice Age on Earth. Vland and Zhdant both had Ice age's too, but<BR>
they were as a result of the Ancients Final War, and thus their most<BR>
recent interglacial has been much longer. Our last Ice Age pretty much<BR>
coincided with the evolution of Modern Hom. Sap. and thus we had to wait<BR>
until it ended to develop agriculture, and thus 'civilisation'. This is<BR>
not to say that there were not technological and social developments<BR>
prior to the end of the ice age, only that it was not until then that<BR>
rate of change started its near geometric rise.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:50:38 -0400<BR>
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net><BR>
Subject: Prefixes (Was RE: Hitting Ships)<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:02:07 PST<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> And a handy list of prefixes:<BR>
> <BR>
> 1e24   Y   yotto<BR>
> 1e21   Z   zetta<BR>
> 1e18   E   exa<BR>
> 1e15   P   peta<BR>
> 1e12   T   tera<BR>
> 1e9    G   giga<BR>
> 1e6    M   mega<BR>
> 1e3    k   kilo<BR>
> 1e2    h   hecto<BR>
> 1e1    da  deka<BR>
> 1<BR>
> 1e-1   d   deci<BR>
> 1e-2   c   centi<BR>
> 1e-3   m   milli<BR>
> 1e-6      micro<BR>
> 1e-9   n   nano<BR>
> 1e-12  p   pico<BR>
> 1e-15  f   femto<BR>
> 1e-18  a   atto<BR>
> 1e-21  z   zepto<BR>
> 1e-24  y   yocto<BR>
> <BR>
> Note that prefixes are *never* combined. So it's 1 Mg, not 1 kkg.<BR>
> <BR>
	Are Zetta-/Yotto- really official, real prefixes? I've seen Exa-<BR>
before, but never anything beyond that.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
    Thomas Jones-Low<BR>
    tjoneslo@together.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:29:07 -0400<BR>
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Views from space<BR>
<BR>
> ------------------------------<BR>
> <BR>
> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:12:08 -0400<BR>
> From: Eric Freitas <ericfrei@gte.net><BR>
> Subject: Re: Views from Space<BR>
> <BR>
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2000, you wrote:<BR>
> > This is an interesting sight:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > http://terraserver.microsoft.com/printimage.asp?S=14&T=1&X=93&Y=1493&Z=18&W=1<BR>
> <BR>
> Are we supposed to see the skull just to the left and below center?<BR>
> <BR>
> Eric<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
	Yes. One of the other players for our World of Darkness campaign found<BR>
this little gem. A skull carved into the landscape in upstate New York.<BR>
For the traveller merchant, being given the landing coordinates for a<BR>
low tech, backwater world which ends up being the middle of a skull<BR>
ought to give some pause for thought. <BR>
	Actually the map(s) that go with the picture, list the skull as a stone<BR>
quarry. How mundane. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
    Thomas Jones-Low<BR>
    tjoneslo@together.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:21:30 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 6:02 AM, Peter Newman at pnewman@gci.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> <BR>
>>> I haven't seen a nutria yet, but I have seen racoons, deer, and possum<BR>
>>> in the city. And found tracks that I suspect were elk in Forest Park.<BR>
>> Yes, but Forest Park is the largest park in the US that falls within a city<BR>
>> limits.  We're not talking urban green strip.  And for all you New Yorkers<BR>
>> out there: Central Park is tiny.<BR>
> <BR>
> How big is Forest Park?<BR>
> <BR>
> Chugach State Park in Alaska is 495,000 acres (about 773<BR>
> square miles and about 2,000 sq. km). It is within the<BR>
> boundaries of the Municipality of Anchorage. (A municipality<BR>
> is similar to a combined city & county).<BR>
> It borders the (5.6 million acre) Chugach National Forest<BR>
> and a number of other federal, state, and native corporation,<BR>
> lands.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Forest park is within the city, not county, limits and is 4,600 acres.  My<BR>
guide to Portland also notes "tiny 24 inch Mills End Park".<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2677<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2678</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2678<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
Re:  Doh!  Dumb question<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
RE: Doh!  Dumb question<BR>
Re: What is canon<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Rats<BR>
Re: risk perception [OT and going off list]<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: Keeping One's Word<BR>
Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
Re: Grenade rules<BR>
RE: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
Re: Doh!  Dumb question<BR>
Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:32:28 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 at 22:12:07 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
><BR>
>Sounds like the gun my gunsmith friend owned for a while. It was<BR>
>either a "broomhandle" Mauser or a Luger. It came in a nice case which<BR>
>contained the pistol, an 18 inch barrel, a wooden holster that doubled<BR>
>as a stock, an extended magazine, etc. I seem to recall that some<BR>
>versions included a silencer. All in a case small enough that *two* of<BR>
>them would fit in many attache cases, and it came this way from the<BR>
>*factory*. <BR>
><BR>
>Anybody recognize it? (And yes, I'm aware that it's probably either<BR>
>illegal now, or requires a *lot* of paperwork and "transfer tax").<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
	Sounds like the broomhandle Mausers, a la Winston Churchill fame.  I *had*<BR>
a book from Guns & Ammo circa 1980 about famous pistols and rifles, and<BR>
they included this one.  I definitely remember the extra long spare barrel,<BR>
as well as the wooden holster that doubled as a stock, and I think the<BR>
extended magazine.  Though lots of pistols have come with the extra barrel<BR>
like that over the years. Probably some with the wooden holster/stock thing<BR>
too, though memory fails me.  Anyway, the handgrip on those was very<BR>
distinctive, so you should be able to tell from that.<BR>
<BR>
	The same book included a chapter on the custom rifle that killed Bonnie &<BR>
Clyde.  A legendary retired Texas Ranger was hired by the FBI.  Pondering<BR>
the task before him and his prey's tendencies, he went to a famous gunsmith<BR>
and had him customize a semiautomatic rifle that was a .30 caliber.  I<BR>
don't remember which .30, but I think it was something considered just<BR>
adequate for deer but only by a little.  He had the barrel shortened,<BR>
probably to around 18 inches and maybe the stock cut down (makes the weapon<BR>
handier in places like cars and hallways), and had a lot of work done on<BR>
the feed system.  I think it started out as an internal feed.  He wound up<BR>
with it taking magazines (that were built from scratch) having an ammo<BR>
capacity of ...I don't remember.  I wanna say 30 rounds.  It was a lot.  He<BR>
basically invented the first documented assault rifle.  Not that anyone<BR>
refers to it that way, but it certainly impressed me as such.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Has anyone created any rules for gunsmithing, or otherwise<BR>
permitting players to customize weaponry?  Tod, perhaps?  <G>  As a ref,<BR>
I've never had players inclined that way.  As a player, I've found most<BR>
refs tend to either forbid customizing stuff they don't fully understand or<BR>
permit you to customize away, but don't give the customized weapon stats<BR>
that are altered from the original.  Depending on your flavor of Traveller,<BR>
there is an armorer skill.  But I only recall rules for applying the skill<BR>
to repairs.<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:44:24 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  Doh!  Dumb question<BR>
<BR>
	A few minutes ago, I asked if there were rules for custom weaponsmithing.<BR>
Completely forgot about FF&S books, doh!  But still...are there any rules<BR>
that are more user friendly and less massive?<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:48:41 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 5:16 AM, Matt Bond at MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> I understand what you are saying, but I also understand that at the time<BR>
> of it's introduction the 5.56mm was decried for it's poor stopping power<BR>
> compared to the 7.62, often needing several hits to put a man down<BR>
> compared to one from the 7.62.<BR>
> <BR>
> I suppose that the higher lethality you mention is due to the fact that<BR>
> the wounds caused do more internal damage, cavitation, and bleeding due<BR>
> to tumbling, which leads to greater mortality down the road, but the<BR>
> actual impact energy is lower and so doesn't tend to put the target down<BR>
> with one shot. Yes, he's more likely to die in the hospital later, but<BR>
> in the meantime he's still shooting back. The target hit with the 7.62<BR>
> will go down due to the impact, and not get up, but has a better<BR>
> survival chance due to the 'cleaner' wound.<BR>
> <BR>
> Does that sound right to you?<BR>
> <BR>
> Matt<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Actually, I was referring to incapacitation.  While the .308 has more<BR>
energy, it transfers less energy.  Transferred energy is a function of<BR>
projectile retardation.  In ball ammunition, there is generally no<BR>
projectile expansion, so retardation is most effected by the bullet's<BR>
tendency to yaw and tumble in the target.  As noted previously, the .308 is<BR>
a relatively stable bullet, and doesn't start to tumble until after about 12<BR>
inches of tissue.  By this time the bullet has usually passed through the<BR>
target.<BR>
<BR>
In contrast, the .223 tends to yaw and upset in only 1 or 2 inches, dumping<BR>
it's energy more rapidly, and often never exits the target.  Also, the 55gn<BR>
M198 round tends to fragment at the canneleure, creating two or more<BR>
sub-missiles.<BR>
<BR>
Early reports on the effectiveness of the .223 round in combat actually<BR>
noted the extreme wounds that this round produced.  This was with the<BR>
original 1 in 14 twist rate, which made for a very unstable projectile.<BR>
<BR>
However, test in arctic conditions indicated the 1 in 14 rate of twist did<BR>
not sufficiently stabilize the bullet for required accuracy in cold<BR>
temperature, and a 1 in 12 twist was adopted for general issue.  The<BR>
lethality of the .223 is well documented in SIPRI's "Anti-personnel weapons"<BR>
(Stockholm International Peace Research Institute).  Any time the anti-war<BR>
groups raise a hue and cry about stuff like this, the military knows it's on<BR>
to something.<BR>
<BR>
Concerns  about the destructiveness of the M198 round when fired from the 1<BR>
in 12 barrel was a major contributing factor in in the adoption of the 68 gn<BR>
SS106 bullet by several European nations (along with better performance in<BR>
machineguns).  Rate of twist originally specified for this new bullet was 1<BR>
in 7, which supposedly produced a more 'humane' round.<BR>
<BR>
The US adopted a very slight variation of the SS109 round as the M855, and<BR>
again rifling was specified as 1 in 7.  Experiments indicated that a change<BR>
to a 1 in 9 twist rate would still adequately stabilize the  the M855, while<BR>
allowing acceptable accuracy with the large stock of the older M198<BR>
ammunition.<BR>
<BR>
Interestingly, it appears that the new 'humane' 68 gn bullet appears to be<BR>
even more lethal than its 55 gn predecessor.  This is probably due to it<BR>
tendency to tumble (still) combined with a longer over-all length.<BR>
<BR>
Additional material can also be found in "The Great Rifle Controversy" By<BR>
Edward Ezell, as well as "The Black Rifle" by either Ezell or Blake R.<BR>
Stevens.<BR>
<BR>
OK, do I qualify as a gearhead now?<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Gum Brain" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:54:59 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond writes:<BR>
>>A sword you can trust.<BR>
>"Aye! 'Till t'bastard breaks on yer!"<BR>
>My character was always having his bastard sword broken in RQ, so he<BR>
>ended up carrying two on his person, and another 2 on his horse...<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Yup, RQ is a bit harsh on weapon durability.  I instituted<BR>
	house rules to increase the survivability of weapons, but they<BR>
	still snap from time to time.<BR>
<BR>
	On the other extreme, Traveller weapons are invulnerable (in CT<BR>
	at least).  Are there any rules out there for breaking a cutlass?<BR>
	Jamming an autopistol?  Dropping a laser?  Parrying with a gauss<BR>
	rifle?  What about armour?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:01:35 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Doh!  Dumb question<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Laning [mailto:laning@wizard.net]<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 4:44 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Doh! Dumb question<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> 	A few minutes ago, I asked if there were rules for <BR>
> custom weaponsmithing.<BR>
> Completely forgot about FF&S books, doh!  But still...are <BR>
> there any rules<BR>
> that are more user friendly and less massive?<BR>
> <BR>
> --Laning<BR>
<BR>
Guns! Guns! Guns! 3rd edition (3G3) by Greg Porter, published by BTRC,<BR>
is a detailed weapon design supplement, with rules for converting to all<BR>
versions of Traveller, GURPS, and several other systems<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:11:23 EDT<BR>
From: OMENSIGIL@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: What is canon<BR>
<BR>
YEAH!!!!!  ANOTHER HERETIC!!! Another individual converted to TNE before any <BR>
other form of traveller...Thank God...<BR>
I also think that TNE cant be defined by previous genres/systems of the game.<BR>
Life cant be defined under "canon" anyway....so whats the point of the <BR>
question of it???why to limit their imagination and stagnate themselves unto <BR>
a GM rut!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Sorry,<BR>
personal pet peeves showing<BR>
Omensigil<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:18:06 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>He grabbed the nearest weapon (a Japenese sword hung on <BR>
>the wall) and badly wounded one of the burglars as they <BR>
>made their escape. <BR>
<BR>
I hope the guy who got rifle-butted was ok.<BR>
<BR>
Cut to scene at the emergency room:<BR>
<BR>
Doctor: Hmm.  That's an interesting wound.  How did you get<BR>
that?<BR>
<BR>
Burglar No. 1:  nnz .. erm .. (in shock)<BR>
<BR>
Burglar No. 2:  Oh, it was ... an accident, yeah, that's<BR>
it, an accident.  With a pane of glass.  Yeah, a whole<BR>
window pane made of glass.  It must have broken and it fell<BR>
from above while we were ... um ... walking, yeah, we were<BR>
walking by this building, and there was a wind, and this<BR>
sharp pane of glass fell straight down and right through my<BR>
friend here, yeah, that's the ticket, a pane of glass.<BR>
<BR>
Doctor:  Hmm.  Well.  Let's get this cleaned up.  Nurse, I<BR>
need about 100m of catgut to sew this closed.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:29:30<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
At 08:54 PM 6/28/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>What was the GPF (Goat Penetration Factor) of the weapon?<BR>
><BR>
>In other words, how many small furry animals will it blow up??????????<BR>
>Wahahahahahahaha . . . . eh.<BR>
<BR>
While firing a .50ca; sniper rifle, I managed to hiot a squirrel that was<BR>
on top of one of the range markers.  Not intentional, but my shot went a<BR>
little high.<BR>
<BR>
The phrase "pink mist" doesn't begin to describe the effects...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:33:55<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
At 04:13 AM 6/28/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>This sounds like a question for Ian.  Query, according to FFS2, what is the<BR>
>armor value of tissue?  How many goats are needed for good cover? (Hey, self<BR>
>propelled sandbags!).<BR>
><BR>
>This, naturally brings up the next obvious question, which I'm betting,<BR>
>knowing who haunts this list, someone will know.  What is the armor value of<BR>
>an innocent by-stander?<BR>
<BR>
ACQ:  It's not directly in there, but since we do use a blowthrough rule,<BR>
you could easily handwave this.<BR>
<BR>
For example, the blowthrough for a human-sized body is 3d6.  Weapons doing<BR>
more than that lose the extra damage due to over-penetration.  So you are<BR>
using an IB as a shield, the police sniper shoots (rifle doing 5d6) and 3<BR>
dice get wasted in the IB, you get hit with 2d6 damage.<BR>
<BR>
How much does the average goat mass?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:35:16 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Rats<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/27/00 1:20:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>   Nor have I, nor have I seen a picture of a Norway rat in excess of<BR>
>   a couple of pounds, nor a good reference about one.  I'm not saying<BR>
>   that they don't exist, but I guess "I'm from Missouri."  (actually,<BR>
>   I'm from Montreal, but some of us are skeptics too).<BR>
<BR>
When I was in the Phillipines a year ago I saw what looked like an adult-size <BR>
opposum climbing the tree outside, turned out it was a rat. Definitely more <BR>
than two pounds.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:49:45 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception [OT and going off list]<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 7:46 AM, Bill Dunn at bdunn@epicsystems.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Don't put too much stock in that "Hmmmmm" over liberalized concealed weapon<BR>
> laws. Violent crime has been declining for years, most of the 1990s, and<BR>
<BR>
OK... way OT.  I'm taking this off the list  Anyone who wants to discuss<BR>
this can email me.  Gun technology on the list, yes.  Gun politics, No No<BR>
No.<BR>
<BR>
And I'm just as much to blame as anyone.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "sheepish" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:39:09<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
At 11:36 PM 6/27/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Yeah, that quote is attributed to a French general in WWI (commandant of the<BR>
>Legion: "You are legionaires so that you may die, and I am sending you where<BR>
>you can die".  I guess that passes for "Go get 'em tiger!" in France.  I can<BR>
>probably find the exect quote in one of my books on' La Legion Etranger'.<BR>
<BR>
I prefer Patton.  "No sonofabitch ever won a war by dying for his country.<BR>
Your job is to get out their and let the other bastard die for his."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:56:37 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Keeping One's Word<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/27/00 6:23:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Keeping One's Word<BR>
>  <BR>
>  > PS  In all seriousness, I commend you very sincerely Loren.  Thank you <BR>
for<BR>
>  >  upholding a very important value, that seems all but forgotten in our<BR>
>  >  modern world.  Keeping one's word.  :-><BR>
>  <BR>
>  Yeah, well, I'm funny that way. When I even think about reneging, my <BR>
mother' s <BR>
>  ghost appears and announces that she is _very_ disappointed in me. Same <BR>
thing <BR>
>  happens when I start to toss a gum wrapper elsewhere but in the trash . . .<BR>
>  <BR>
>  LKW<BR>
<BR>
Does she want another job? I have a bunch of customers who need to learn what <BR>
a trashcan is. Among other things.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:59:43 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
"Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> They don't have to be - but the canonical Vilani backwardness in the<BR>
> biosciences demands it, IMHO, if they couldn't cope with the Plague(s)<BR>
> of Duskir in the IW period.<BR>
> <BR>
> It implies a mind-buggering ignorance of epidemiology, microbiology and<BR>
> infectious disease despite having an interstellar trading empire for<BR>
> several milennia.<BR>
<BR>
Which, to me, is just too hard to swallow. Anyone who can develop<BR>
basic statistical mathematics can develop epidemiology, really.<BR>
Microbiology was first invented here on Terra quite a while ago...<BR>
it provided one of the major driving forces behind optics research<BR>
back when the discovery of the lens was a big deal. I really find it <BR>
hard to believe that there wouldn't be at least some primitive microbiology<BR>
knowledge in a culture posessing lenses.<BR>
<BR>
To me, the backwardsness of the Vilani is only in comparison to<BR>
the Terrans/Solomani who had a very unique position with regards to<BR>
biological research relative to all the other human races out there.<BR>
<BR>
The Terrans got a leg up by starting with the relatively primitive genetic<BR>
manipluation techniques in use today - cutting genes from<BR>
organism X and sticking them in organism Y and seeing what happens. <BR>
A few centurines of this and they've presumably got it understood well<BR>
enough to allow them to do much more sophisticated things, like curing<BR>
genetic diseases and creating previously unseen or highly complex<BR>
characteristics - like sentient dolphins.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, give the Vilani 50-75 years of advancement in medical sciences<BR>
for every 100 Terran years. Which is probably better than most other human<BR>
races out there.<BR>
<BR>
Note that the Zhodani are in the same boat as the Vilani with regards to<BR>
developing on an alien planet, but there's never any mention made of their<BR>
scientific backwardness, in medicine or any other field.<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:01:16 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grenade rules<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 7:49 AM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod, your grenade rules fit MTU perfectly.  Thanks for sharing them.<BR>
> <BR>
> I especially like that you treat frag effects as shotgun.<BR>
> <BR>
> When you have a standard miss, do you roll dice to determine how far off<BR>
> target the grenade lands?  Also, you let a miss go long, left, or right,<BR>
> but not land short.  Or was that omitted from your email unintentionally?<BR>
<BR>
please include short, don't know how I missed that one.  Misses are in a<BR>
random direction (D6) and xD6 meters (fit to your trav varient and what<BR>
makes sense based on terrain) + the secondary damage radius (you did miss<BR>
after all).  Short throws should not place the PC in danger unless it was a<BR>
critical failure or the PC did something really stupid like being in the<BR>
same samll room as the target<BR>
> <BR>
> Your frag-grenade-with-phosphorous cocktail sounds perfect.  I've never<BR>
> understood why we don't encounter that design all the time in real life<BR>
> militaries.  Is it a Geneva Convention thing or something?<BR>
<BR>
Accuracy Systems was a real US company that was noted for it's innovative<BR>
non-lethal and military grenades an pyrotechnics.  You will find some of<BR>
their products listed in "Jane's Infantry Weapons".  I have a catalog around<BR>
here somewhere (If I can ever find it)<BR>
> <BR>
> One last question.  Do you modify blast effects for individuals being in<BR>
> an enclosed space with the explosion?  A room with closed doors and windows<BR>
> is a really lousy place to be standing as far as concussion effects are<BR>
> concerned.  Open the doors, and things get better (may or may not save your<BR>
> life).<BR>
<BR>
The referee may elect to use enhanced blast damage for target in enclosed<BR>
spaced, adding one or more die in inverse proportion to room size.  I tend<BR>
not to do this for PCs as grenades (as in RL) as just too darned lethal.<BR>
Usually I will add effects like deafness (temporary or permanent)<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- -<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:02:48 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> Weeeellll... The Vilani did have spaceflight for a couple of thousand<BR>
> years (IIRC, my books are at home...) before developing Jump technology,<BR>
> whereas the Solomani 'invent' Jump technology after only a century of<BR>
> Space flight.<BR>
> <BR>
> I wouldn't exactly call the Vilani 'lumps on a bump' but they are hardly<BR>
> a culture of innovation.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I think it's hard to make a sweeping generalization <BR>
across time like that. Would you call China a "culture of<BR>
innovation"? In some ways, no, but in other ways they were <BR>
far ahead of the "west" in the discovery of things like gunpowder<BR>
and printing.<BR>
<BR>
(Ok, so they kind of just sat on gunpowder and didn't really capitalize <BR>
on it, but never the less, they got it first).<BR>
<BR>
> As to why the Vilani and the Zhodani were both spacefaring before the<BR>
> Solomani hit the Neolithic, I point you in the direction of the most<BR>
> recent Ice Age on Earth. Vland and Zhdant both had Ice age's too, but<BR>
> they were as a result of the Ancients Final War, and thus their most<BR>
> recent interglacial has been much longer. Our last Ice Age pretty much<BR>
> coincided with the evolution of Modern Hom. Sap. and thus we had to wait<BR>
> until it ended to develop agriculture, and thus 'civilisation'. This is<BR>
> not to say that there were not technological and social developments<BR>
> prior to the end of the ice age, only that it was not until then that<BR>
> rate of change started its near geometric rise.<BR>
<BR>
Pah. Solomani apologist. ;)<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:02:49 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Robert Conley <estar@toolcity.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
<BR>
> not with the intent of establishing an empire as far as I can tell.<BR>
> The Vilani sleeper ships went to very nearby planets with the intent of <BR>
> creating a local sublight trading empire. The Terran ships were <BR>
> apparently very long range (to the Marches from terra by sublight? Wow)<BR>
> settlement missions with a goal I'm not sure I really understand.<BR>
<BR>
Two reasons first, precontact Terra culture was in a Promethus mode and<BR>
the various state were sending sub-light missions because they could.<BR>
Second, after contact, the Terran realized the huge size of the Ziru Sirka<BR>
and sent out missions as insurance using the technology of the older<BR>
Promethus missions.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:23:26 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Doh!  Dumb question<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 8:44 AM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> A few minutes ago, I asked if there were rules for custom weaponsmithing.<BR>
> Completely forgot about FF&S books, doh!  But still...are there any rules<BR>
> that are more user friendly and less massive?<BR>
> <BR>
> --Laning<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I don't use FFS2 for gun design, though I find it intriguing, if somewhat<BR>
inaccurate (hey, it IS just a game).  I use the following simple modifiers<BR>
for custom guns:<BR>
<BR>
cosmetic modifications:  Hey whatever you want.  Gold plated with Oosik<BR>
grips (read that as the penis bone of a walrus).  Fine pay for it and wait.<BR>
<BR>
Match grade weapons: 3x the price and +1 to hit (CT) no bonus for non-owners<BR>
"It's sighted in for me".  Also more likely to jam. Critical failure on a 3-<BR>
or 4- on 2D, rather than a 2 (depends on the complexity and quality.  A very<BR>
high quality match gun may cost 5 time the base price and on fail critically<BR>
on a 3-)<BR>
<BR>
The ultimate, personalized firearms: +2 for the user, -1 for anyone else.  A<BR>
gun specifically built for its owner.  10x the base price and usually only<BR>
obtained in the course of an adventure "Mater Gunsmith Shialago thanks you<BR>
for saving his nephew and wishes to present you with a gift of a firearm.<BR>
When would you be available for a fitting?"<BR>
<BR>
Personalized weapons weapons take time to complete, of requiring several<BR>
fittings.  They also might as well have your name engraved in them.<BR>
<BR>
"You say you don't recognizes this, the murder weapon, Mr. Smith? Would you<BR>
please pick up and aim the weapon for the Jury, Mr. Smith?  Please note that<BR>
the pistol fits Mr. Smith's hand like it was made for it, ladies and<BR>
gentlemen of the jury.  Still  don't recall this gun, Mr. Smith?  I am<BR>
prepared to call a Mr. Shialago to the stand.  Do you recall making some 5<BR>
or 6 visits to Mr. Shialago's place of business in order to be fitted for a<BR>
gun exactly like this one, Mr. Smith....Nothing to say Mr. smith?<BR>
Prosecution rests."<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:30:46 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > How big is Forest Park?<BR>
<BR>
> > Chugach State Park in Alaska is 495,000 acres (about 773<BR>
> > square miles and about 2,000 sq. km).<BR>
<BR>
> Forest park is within the city, not county, <BR>
<BR>
A municipality is a city. It is also similar to a county.<BR>
Here in Alaska land is not automatically part of a county/<BR>
parish/borough/whatever. The Municipality of Anchorage is<BR>
small for Alaska and our city limits are bigger than the<BR>
state of Rhode Island. We have a borough, the North Slope<BR>
Borough, that is bigger than California and possibly bigger<BR>
than Texas. IIRC there are sheep Ranches in Australia that<BR>
are even bigger than that.<BR>
<BR>
Big is relative. Imagine an Earth sized world with a population<BR>
of 50,000 people or so (and a similar hydrographic percentage). <BR>
49,900 of them live in one city. The remaining 100 people might<BR>
live on ten ten person 'farms'. Each of the 'farms' would be larger<BR>
than Europe. <BR>
<BR>
> limits and is 4,600 acres.  My<BR>
> guide to Portland also notes "tiny 24 inch Mills End Park".<BR>
<BR>
4,600 acres is less than 7.2 square miles or (if square) less<BR>
than 2.7 miles on a side. This does not seem very big to me.<BR>
Now if you roofed the park over at 20 meters up and made it<BR>
into the main compartment of a K'Kree ship it would be about<BR>
26.3 billion (Traveller) displacement tons and would suddenly <BR>
seem huge. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:48:52 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 10:30 AM, Peter Newman at pnewman@gci.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
>>> How big is Forest Park?<BR>
> <BR>
>>> Chugach State Park in Alaska is 495,000 acres (about 773<BR>
>>> square miles and about 2,000 sq. km).<BR>
> <BR>
>> Forest park is within the city, not county,<BR>
> <BR>
> A municipality is a city. It is also similar to a county.<BR>
> Here in Alaska land is not automatically part of a county/<BR>
> parish/borough/whatever. The Municipality of Anchorage is<BR>
> small for Alaska and our city limits are bigger than the<BR>
> state of Rhode Island. We have a borough, the North Slope<BR>
> Borough, that is bigger than California and possibly bigger<BR>
> than Texas. IIRC there are sheep Ranches in Australia that<BR>
> are even bigger than that.<BR>
> <BR>
> Big is relative. Imagine an Earth sized world with a population<BR>
> of 50,000 people or so (and a similar hydrographic percentage).<BR>
> 49,900 of them live in one city. The remaining 100 people might<BR>
> live on ten ten person 'farms'. Each of the 'farms' would be larger<BR>
> than Europe. <BR>
> <BR>
>> limits and is 4,600 acres.  My<BR>
>> guide to Portland also notes "tiny 24 inch Mills End Park".<BR>
> <BR>
> 4,600 acres is less than 7.2 square miles or (if square) less<BR>
> than 2.7 miles on a side. This does not seem very big to me.<BR>
> Now if you roofed the park over at 20 meters up and made it<BR>
> into the main compartment of a K'Kree ship it would be about<BR>
> 26.3 billion (Traveller) displacement tons and would suddenly<BR>
> seem huge. :)<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well, everything in Alaska IS bigger.  4,600 acres seems pretty good sized<BR>
for a city park to me.  I drive through it every day I go down town, and to<BR>
me, taking a highway  (US 26) through a city park makes it big.<BR>
<BR>
As a co-worker of mine from Alaska used to say "Split Alaska in half and<BR>
Texas would be the third largest state."<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:51:09 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
>Note that the police also say he was actually only shot <BR>
>twice because they "double tap", so each group of two <BR>
>bullets only counts as being shot once. I wish I knew how<BR>
>to count like that.- --<BR>
<BR>
You just have to become an accountant.  They can count like<BR>
that all day long.  Or, if they work for plaintiff, they<BR>
can count each double tap as four hits, because each bullet<BR>
would then count twice -- it's a double tap, right? -- so<BR>
he got hit eight times.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2678<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2679</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/28/00 2:38:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2679<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Metric prefices<BR>
Re: Vilani and Bioweapons<BR>
Re: Vilani Bioscience<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2675<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2677<BR>
RE: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
Re: Maps & Plotters<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
Re: Groats<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: MOS<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
RE: Weapon Design (was:  Doh!  Dumb Question)<BR>
Re: MOS<BR>
Re: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:48:31 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Metric prefices<BR>
<BR>
Thom Jones-Low wrote:<BR>
> [Leonard Erickson wrote:]<BR>
> > <BR>
> > And a handy list of prefixes:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > 1e24   Y   yotto<BR>
> > 1e21   Z   zetta<BR>
> > 1e18   E   exa<BR>
> > 1e15   P   peta<BR>
> > 1e12   T   tera<BR>
> > 1e9    G   giga<BR>
> > 1e6    M   mega<BR>
> > 1e3    k   kilo<BR>
> > 1e2    h   hecto<BR>
> > 1e1    da  deka<BR>
> > 1<BR>
> > 1e-1   d   deci<BR>
> > 1e-2   c   centi<BR>
> > 1e-3   m   milli<BR>
> > 1e-6   f   micro<BR>
> > 1e-9   n   nano<BR>
> > 1e-12  p   pico<BR>
> > 1e-15  f   femto<BR>
> > 1e-18  a   atto<BR>
> > 1e-21  z   zepto<BR>
> > 1e-24  y   yocto<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Note that prefixes are *never* combined. So it's 1 Mg, not 1 kkg.<BR>
> > <BR>
>         Are Zetta-/Yotto- really official, real prefixes? I've seen Exa-<BR>
> before, but never anything beyond that.<BR>
<BR>
Yup, they're official.<BR>
<BR>
According to _The Hacker's Dictionary_, zetta-/zepto- and yotta-/yocto <BR>
were adopted in 1990 by the "19th Conference Generale des Poids et <BR>
Mesures" - the conference that defines the SI/metric system. _THD_ is <BR>
silent on the derivation of those prefixes, but mentions that femto- <BR>
and atto- are from Danish rather than Greek.<BR>
<BR>
In 1993, someone named Morgan Burke proposed the following additions:<BR>
groucho-   1e-30<BR>
harpo-     1e-27<BR>
harpi-     1e+27<BR>
grouchi-   1e+30<BR>
<BR>
...leaving zeppo-, gummo-, and chico- available for future expansion.<BR>
"Sadly, there is little immediate prospect that Mr. Burke's eminently <BR>
sensible proposal will be ratified."<BR>
<BR>
Also, I'd just like to point out that the prefix for micro is the <BR>
greek letter mu, lowercase, which looks like a lowercase u with a long <BR>
straight descender from the left-hand side (and u is occasionally used <BR>
as an "I-only-have-US-ASCII-on-my-machine" copout for it). In my machine's <BR>
e-mail configuration, Leonard's post put an "ae" digraph where I'm sure <BR>
he intended a "mu". Do not be fooled! :)<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:12:35 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Bioweapons<BR>
<BR>
"Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au> writes:<BR>
<quote.<BR>
<position statement><BR>
The development of immune tolerance to a wide variety of 'unusual'<BR>
antigens led to, with time, the Vilani 'longevity factor' as well as a<BR>
disturbing lack of resistance to influenza, the 'common cold', etc.<BR>
</position statement><BR>
</quote><BR>
<BR>
Exactly. I'll take as given that the Vilani had some diseases, although they<BR>
remained remarkably disease free. My question, and the reason I started this<BR>
thread, is how vulnerable were they to diseases just by having casual<BR>
contact with the Terrans? I'm guessing that even with the advanced antiviral<BR>
treatments of the 22nd Century, there would still be a bunch of diseases<BR>
that would be common among the Terrans (the common cold and influenza being<BR>
among them.) If we postulate uneven development among the nations of Earth<BR>
continuing into the Interstellar Wars period, at the start at least there<BR>
will be people in the Armed Services whose countries of origin had many<BR>
endemic, deadly diseases. And then there's STDs, almost guaranteed to be<BR>
extant in the 22nd Century.<BR>
<BR>
Based on my own recent studying for some projects, I think there would be a<BR>
number of wildfire plagues among the Vilani of possibly extreme lethality,<BR>
eventually spreading through the entire Imperium, plagues that did not<BR>
affect the Terrans. I know that T4 canon mentions one of these (the Plague<BR>
of Duskir). Any comments? Are there valid reasons/inoffensive handwaves<BR>
explaining why this wouldn't be so?<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:16:52 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Note that the Zhodani are in the same boat as the Vilani with regards to<BR>
> developing on an alien planet, but there's never any mention made of their<BR>
> scientific backwardness, in medicine or any other field.<BR>
<BR>
The Zhodani had the Chirpers. The disease which killed all<BR>
the Zhodani Chirpers also killed most of the Zhodani humans.<BR>
Therefore diseases (at least Ancient bio weapon plagues)<BR>
are probably able to travel between Chirpers/Droyne and<BR>
humans. MT establishes that during Hard Times some planets<BR>
ended up killing and eating their Chirpers so Chirpers/<BR>
Droyne must be able to be digested by humans. Presumably<BR>
dealing with the Chirpers helped Zhodani biological<BR>
science be less backwards.<BR>
<BR>
The real problem with canonical Vilani biological backwardness<BR>
is that the Vilani canonically encountered many (dozens ?)<BR>
of minor human races. If these minor human races carried diseases<BR>
that the Vilani were vulnerable to then logically the Vilani should<BR>
have suffered from these diseases. It seems unlikely that the <BR>
minor human races were also relatively disease free.<BR>
<BR>
It seems likely that the canonical Vilani biological backwardness<BR>
and vulnerability to Terran disease was supposed to be similar to<BR>
the vulnerability of New World populations to Old World diseases.<BR>
Many/most Native Americans died from European diseases after first<BR>
contact. This did not mean that the New World was germ free prior<BR>
to contact or that some New World diseases (including syphilis IIRC)<BR>
did not infect Europe. It simply met that the Americans who descended<BR>
from a smaller starting population, had few domestic animals, and<BR>
had been isolated for thousands of years were quite vulnerable to<BR>
European diseases.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU this is fairly similar to what happened to the Vilani.<BR>
The Vilani (Native Americans) went out among the stars (explored<BR>
the Pacific) and encountered other human races (Polynesians)<BR>
but never encountered the disease ridden Solomani (Europeans<BR>
and/or Asian). When they did problems resulted.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:30:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2675<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>Here in Portland, an elderly women called the ATF saying that her husband<BR>
>had died, and she wanted to get rid of his gun.  What he has was a mint<BR>
>condition, unregistered Maxim water cooled brass-jacket machinegun.  They<BR>
>tried to get a museum to take this work of art.  Sadly, no one was<BR>
>interested, and off it went to Oregon steel mills and the big melting pot.<BR>
>My wife say that it's the only time they've destroyed a gun that she wanted<BR>
>to cry.<BR>
<BR>
	Make that two people...but then, I'm a major WWI nut.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:51:53 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2677<BR>
<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>Say a warning "Be careful, the fish get kinda big out there", followed<BR>
>by the players landing on a small island (complete with some vegetation)<BR>
>for a break, and starting a fire to cook some fish or some such, and<BR>
>*waking up* the huge "fish" on whose back they've landed?<BR>
<BR>
	"Nomads of the World Ocean"  (don't remember offhand which adventure number<BR>
is was ...10?)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:47:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>	The same book included a chapter on the custom rifle that killed Bonnie &<BR>
>Clyde.  A legendary retired Texas Ranger was hired by the FBI.  Pondering<BR>
>the task before him and his prey's tendencies, he went to a famous gunsmith<BR>
>and had him customize a semiautomatic rifle that was a .30 caliber.  I<BR>
>don't remember which .30, but I think it was something considered just<BR>
>adequate for deer but only by a little.<BR>
<BR>
	According to the source I read, the weapon used to bring down Bonnie and<BR>
Clyde was a .35 Remmington.  It was considered to be a more-than-adaquate<BR>
deer cartridge and the semi-automatic rifle that it was chambered for (I<BR>
don't recall the model number) is a gun that more Call of Cthulhu players<BR>
should be aware of :)  The rest of the posse at that ambush were using<BR>
Winchester pump-action shotguns.<BR>
	As for Bonnie Parker, she was partial to a specially-modified gun herself.<BR>
It was a Browning Auto-5 shotgun in 20ga. (she was a small woman)  It had<BR>
the barrel sawed off just in front of the magazine tube and had the butt cut<BR>
off behind the recoil spring which runs part-way down the stock.  It looks a<BR>
little odd with this necessary little lump hanging off the back of the<BR>
pistolgrip.  Apparently you have to monkey with the spring a bit in order to<BR>
get it to work, but when it does it is a devistating weapon up close.<BR>
Popular with several noted criminals of the era.  (The Dillinger gang had<BR>
one in 12ga.)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK??<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:03:45 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Maps & Plotters<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/27/00 10:43 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I saw an HP 7475A go for $10 on pdx.forsale a few days ago.<BR>
<BR>
Wow! I would have been tempted even if I had one already! If it wouldn't<BR>
work on my Mac, I'd find somebody who could use it. I looked at the size of<BR>
my map again, and I think I'll have to change the dpi to print it even on my<BR>
Aunts machine, it's 96.4 x 44.2 inches at 72 dpi. Mogumbus! What is the max<BR>
size Kinko's can handle? There is a couple in Fresno I could take the file<BR>
to.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:14:41 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
See there, Tod, that's your perception misleading you again. Official<BR>
figures for last year made a point of mentioning that the total number<BR>
of _suspected_ murders in the entire UK in 1998 (1999 figures will not<BR>
come out till later this year) was less than the number of murders in<BR>
New York on a _single_ average day!. We could get a LOT more dangerous<BR>
over here before we even get close to the US.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, burglary is fairly common over here - because householders are<BR>
not allowed to carry guns (we can only use "reasonable force" to<BR>
protect ourselves) so the robbers don't feel too threatened.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: How about a place - what's that waterworld in Regina called,<BR>
for instance, where the foodrunners operate? At any rate, the law<BR>
level is high and its Amber Zone, but what if the citizens are allowed<BR>
guns in the home but not on the streets. Penalty for having a gun out<BR>
of your home would be, say, summary execution (I think that fits with<BR>
the place). Thieves would find it a VERY dangerous place to be - but<BR>
citizens would be happy and safe. Visitors might find it a bit risky<BR>
though - especially if privacy is valued (and the world _is_<BR>
overcrowded for the living space available).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>
Email     : mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
Website : www.mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> Sent: 27 June 2000 17:02<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> on 6/27/00 8:12 AM, Trevor, Peter at<BR>
> Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Yet many Londoners felt that they were safer in  London  than  in<BR>
> > any typical US city (thanks in part to  all  the  gun  fights  in<BR>
> > imported US television programs we watch).<BR>
> ><BR>
> > ObTrav: Every day life on Efate and Ruie just prior  to  the  5FW<BR>
> > springs to mind with the Ine Givar terrorists.<BR>
><BR>
> Aren't perceptions fun?  I understand that violent crime in<BR>
> Englnad is catching up with the US.  And in the US, home<BR>
> invasions are rare compared with the UK.<BR>
><BR>
> BTW, I understand that Scotland leads Europe in murders. Do<BR>
> you think that you fellow countrymen feel scotland is 'dangerous'.<BR>
><BR>
> I like to tell people that during the height of the 'Wild<BR>
> West'(1865 to 1890) the per capita murder rate in Dodge City,<BR>
> Abilene and other famous 'rough' town was much lower than<BR>
> civilized eastern cities like New York.<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:24:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Groats<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/28/00 4:59 AM, rhoughto@one.net.au issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Funny...and her's me thinking groats were some kind of cereal<BR>
> product...although a<BR>
> bag of wheat would probably be a good defense...<BR>
<BR>
Are there any pics of Groats out there?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:22:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
Yep, except the projo weight is 62 grains, not 68. :-)<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 8:48 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/28/00 5:16 AM, Matt Bond at MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > I understand what you are saying, but I also understand that at the time<BR>
> > of it's introduction the 5.56mm was decried for it's poor stopping power<BR>
> > compared to the 7.62, often needing several hits to put a man down<BR>
> > compared to one from the 7.62.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I suppose that the higher lethality you mention is due to the fact that<BR>
> > the wounds caused do more internal damage, cavitation, and bleeding due<BR>
> > to tumbling, which leads to greater mortality down the road, but the<BR>
> > actual impact energy is lower and so doesn't tend to put the target down<BR>
> > with one shot. Yes, he's more likely to die in the hospital later, but<BR>
> > in the meantime he's still shooting back. The target hit with the 7.62<BR>
> > will go down due to the impact, and not get up, but has a better<BR>
> > survival chance due to the 'cleaner' wound.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Does that sound right to you?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Matt<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> Actually, I was referring to incapacitation.  While the .308 has more<BR>
> energy, it transfers less energy.  Transferred energy is a function of<BR>
> projectile retardation.  In ball ammunition, there is generally no<BR>
> projectile expansion, so retardation is most effected by the bullet's<BR>
> tendency to yaw and tumble in the target.  As noted previously, the .308<BR>
is<BR>
> a relatively stable bullet, and doesn't start to tumble until after about<BR>
12<BR>
> inches of tissue.  By this time the bullet has usually passed through the<BR>
> target.<BR>
><BR>
> In contrast, the .223 tends to yaw and upset in only 1 or 2 inches,<BR>
dumping<BR>
> it's energy more rapidly, and often never exits the target.  Also, the<BR>
55gn<BR>
> M198 round tends to fragment at the canneleure, creating two or more<BR>
> sub-missiles.<BR>
><BR>
> Early reports on the effectiveness of the .223 round in combat actually<BR>
> noted the extreme wounds that this round produced.  This was with the<BR>
> original 1 in 14 twist rate, which made for a very unstable projectile.<BR>
><BR>
> However, test in arctic conditions indicated the 1 in 14 rate of twist did<BR>
> not sufficiently stabilize the bullet for required accuracy in cold<BR>
> temperature, and a 1 in 12 twist was adopted for general issue.  The<BR>
> lethality of the .223 is well documented in SIPRI's "Anti-personnel<BR>
weapons"<BR>
> (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute).  Any time the anti-war<BR>
> groups raise a hue and cry about stuff like this, the military knows it's<BR>
on<BR>
> to something.<BR>
><BR>
> Concerns  about the destructiveness of the M198 round when fired from the<BR>
1<BR>
> in 12 barrel was a major contributing factor in in the adoption of the 68<BR>
gn<BR>
> SS106 bullet by several European nations (along with better performance in<BR>
> machineguns).  Rate of twist originally specified for this new bullet was<BR>
1<BR>
> in 7, which supposedly produced a more 'humane' round.<BR>
><BR>
> The US adopted a very slight variation of the SS109 round as the M855, and<BR>
> again rifling was specified as 1 in 7.  Experiments indicated that a<BR>
change<BR>
> to a 1 in 9 twist rate would still adequately stabilize the  the M855,<BR>
while<BR>
> allowing acceptable accuracy with the large stock of the older M198<BR>
> ammunition.<BR>
><BR>
> Interestingly, it appears that the new 'humane' 68 gn bullet appears to be<BR>
> even more lethal than its 55 gn predecessor.  This is probably due to it<BR>
> tendency to tumble (still) combined with a longer over-all length.<BR>
><BR>
> Additional material can also be found in "The Great Rifle Controversy" By<BR>
> Edward Ezell, as well as "The Black Rifle" by either Ezell or Blake R.<BR>
> Stevens.<BR>
><BR>
> OK, do I qualify as a gearhead now?<BR>
><BR>
> Tod "Gum Brain" Glenn<BR>
> --<BR>
> "Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
> killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
> --<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:26:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: MOS<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/28/00 5:52 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> I've been curious what kind of battery Marc had.  Hawks?  .50 cals?<BR>
>> Something else?<BR>
> <BR>
> Vulcan APC. <BR>
<BR>
Was he in a ground based team or on a chopper? Or other?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:30:32 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
Mark Preston writes:<BR>
<BR>
> OTOH, burglary is fairly common over here - because householders are<BR>
> not allowed to carry guns (we can only use "reasonable force" to<BR>
> protect ourselves) so the robbers don't feel too threatened.<BR>
<BR>
From something I just saw, most violent crimes other than murder are higher in the UK than in the US.  Presumably adding guns to the mix would increase the number of murders, how it would affect other crime statistics is anyone's guess.  It's inobvious how the presence or absence of guns would affect the burglary rate, most burglars prefer empty houses anyway.<BR>
> <BR>
> ObTrav: How about a place - what's that waterworld in Regina called,<BR>
> for instance, where the foodrunners operate? At any rate, the law<BR>
> level is high and its Amber Zone, but what if the citizens are allowed<BR>
> guns in the home but not on the streets. Penalty for having a gun out<BR>
> of your home would be, say, summary execution (I think that fits with<BR>
> the place). Thieves would find it a VERY dangerous place to be - but<BR>
> citizens would be happy and safe. Visitors might find it a bit risky<BR>
> though - especially if privacy is valued (and the world _is_<BR>
> overcrowded for the living space available).<BR>
<BR>
Actually, creating a legal market for guns would almost certainly increase the number of guns on the street, not reduce it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:25:55 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
<BR>
The .35 Remington reffered to was a Remington Model 7. (I've seen it in a<BR>
Museum).<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 12:47 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Odd Calibers (was: Player choices of weapons)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
> >Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
> ><BR>
> <snip><BR>
> ><BR>
> > The same book included a chapter on the custom rifle that killed Bonnie<BR>
&<BR>
> >Clyde.  A legendary retired Texas Ranger was hired by the FBI.  Pondering<BR>
> >the task before him and his prey's tendencies, he went to a famous<BR>
gunsmith<BR>
> >and had him customize a semiautomatic rifle that was a .30 caliber.  I<BR>
> >don't remember which .30, but I think it was something considered just<BR>
> >adequate for deer but only by a little.<BR>
><BR>
> According to the source I read, the weapon used to bring down Bonnie and<BR>
> Clyde was a .35 Remmington.  It was considered to be a more-than-adaquate<BR>
> deer cartridge and the semi-automatic rifle that it was chambered for (I<BR>
> don't recall the model number) is a gun that more Call of Cthulhu players<BR>
> should be aware of :)  The rest of the posse at that ambush were using<BR>
> Winchester pump-action shotguns.<BR>
> As for Bonnie Parker, she was partial to a specially-modified gun herself.<BR>
> It was a Browning Auto-5 shotgun in 20ga. (she was a small woman)  It had<BR>
> the barrel sawed off just in front of the magazine tube and had the butt<BR>
cut<BR>
> off behind the recoil spring which runs part-way down the stock.  It looks<BR>
a<BR>
> little odd with this necessary little lump hanging off the back of the<BR>
> pistolgrip.  Apparently you have to monkey with the spring a bit in order<BR>
to<BR>
> get it to work, but when it does it is a devistating weapon up close.<BR>
> Popular with several noted criminals of the era.  (The Dillinger gang had<BR>
> one in 12ga.)<BR>
><BR>
> Rod Basler, COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- -<BR>
> Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions,<BR>
OK??<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:29:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/28/00 6:34 AM, egh@klg.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> The Terran ships were<BR>
> apparently very long range (to the Marches from terra by sublight? Wow)<BR>
> settlement missions with a goal I'm not sure I really understand.<BR>
<BR>
Weren't they trying to save their culture/species?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:34:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Weapon Design (was:  Doh!  Dumb Question)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
>Subject: RE: Doh!  Dumb question<BR>
> <snip><BR>
><BR>
>Guns! Guns! Guns! 3rd edition (3G3) by Greg Porter, published by BTRC,<BR>
>is a detailed weapon design supplement, with rules for converting to all<BR>
>versions of Traveller, GURPS, and several other systems<BR>
><BR>
>Matt<BR>
<BR>
	I've seen and used those rules, and in general they seem very good, but I<BR>
have some serious reservations about a couple of the assumptions.<BR>
	1)  Baseing damage strictly on penetration.  Yes, for a given penetration<BR>
depth, a smaller projectile requires less KE than a large one.  That is a<BR>
given.  While only a few pounds of pressure are required to press an<BR>
intercardial needle into the chest to give an injection, it would take a<BR>
tremendous amount of KE to punch the wide end of a baseball bat an equal<BR>
depth.  However:  people get intercardial injections every day with<BR>
impunity, while having the business end of a Louisville Slugger driven into<BR>
your aorta would be a little harder to walk away from.  Then again, I'm a<BR>
.45 partisan (who made that joke about going on a gedanken-trip with Jeff<BR>
Cooper and Elmer Keith?  Man, I want to party with you!)<BR>
<BR>
	2)  Baseing recoil on KE.  IIRC, recoil is a driven (pun alert - sorry) by<BR>
momentum. bullet mass X velocity / gun mass, modified heavily my geometry<BR>
and endless other messy imponderables.  This is why it is often advantageous<BR>
to use a lighter slug in a given caliber.  It can be driven to a higher<BR>
velocity, giving a greater KE while having a lower overall momentum, hence a<BR>
lower felt recoil.<BR>
	The "messy imponderables" are _really_ messy.  Take two hypothetical<BR>
weapons of the same caliber and mass.  Put the weight up front and the<BR>
muzzle will stay down, but it is harder to bring to bear or to track a<BR>
fast-moving object.  Put all the weight in the firer's hand and the gun is<BR>
quick to draw, but the muzzle will whip all to hell, creating a higher felt<BR>
recoil and a much longer time to recover the sight picture (faster first<BR>
shot, slower second shot).  Put the barrel up high (think:  revolver) and it<BR>
is easier to sight, but the recoil creates more torque.  Stick the barrel<BR>
really low and the recoil goes straight into the arm and hardly rises at<BR>
all - but it would be a bitch to design good sights.<BR>
	Two firers will have very different experiences, too.  For example, BP<BR>
weapons generally have a lower felt recoil than a smokeless powder weapon<BR>
because the recoil often comes as a slow, heavy push rather than a sharp<BR>
jab.  OTOH, my .50 flintlock has this beautiful high comb to the stock that<BR>
nestles under my prominant cheekbone and puts my eye perfectly in line with<BR>
the sights.  Once I pull the trigger, however, the recoil drives that comb<BR>
rather painfully up into my face.  20 rounds and I am sore for days.  (I've<BR>
got both Norwegian and Cherokee in my recent past - it is anyone's guess as<BR>
to who to blame for the cheek genes).  Someone with smaller cheekbones would<BR>
have no problem with the same rifle.<BR>
	I hate Glocks because the shape of the grip jabs the web of my hand during<BR>
recoil (light up front, too: whippy recoil IIRC), while the H&K USP fits<BR>
like a dream.  Many people have had problems with the Colt M1911 .45:<BR>
during recoil the web of their hand rolls up over the spur of the grip<BR>
safety and gets quite painfully bitten by the hammer.  There are even<BR>
'bevertail' aftermarket grip safeties to prevent this.  I, however, have<BR>
never had a problem.  (Yes, John Moses Browning is my god).<BR>
	That's what I love about engineering:  It is all trade-offs.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:20:15 EDT<BR>
From: CardSharks@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: MOS<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/28/00 3:26:59 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
xrp@sierratel.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< <BR>
 >> I've been curious what kind of battery Marc had.  Hawks?  .50 cals?<BR>
 >> Something else?<BR>
 > <BR>
 > Vulcan APC. <BR>
 <BR>
 Was he in a ground based team or on a chopper? Or other?<BR>
  >><BR>
US Army Air Defense Battalion, one of the set created in the very late 60's <BR>
after the Army realized that it did not necessarily have air supremacy at all <BR>
times in all places. AND they did not want toi depend ont he Air Force to <BR>
always keep the bad air planes away.<BR>
<BR>
SO, they created the Division Air Defense Battalion with two batteries of <BR>
M113 mounted 20mm Vulcan gatling guns, and two batteries of Chapparal <BR>
anti-aircraft missiles (basically Sidewinders mounted on a little turret on <BR>
the back of an tracked ammo carrier)<BR>
<BR>
[BTW, these carriers, when the canvas was up looked just like the standard <BR>
artiller tracked ammo carrier, so we could trick satellite or aerial <BR>
surveillance into not knowing there was air defense in the area.]<BR>
<BR>
I served in the 4th of the 61st Artillery with the 5th Infantry Division in <BR>
Ft Carson Colorado.<BR>
<BR>
Since air defense experience was not necessary in Vietnam, I was instead the <BR>
company executive officer for the Headquarters and Headquarters Company of a <BR>
Combat Aviation Brigade (sounds snazzyier than it was), part of the Americal <BR>
Division (famous for the My Lai massacre).<BR>
<BR>
When I returned, I was the assistant operations officer for the 6th of the <BR>
67th Air Defense Artillery, part of the 1st Infantry Division in Ft Riley <BR>
Kansas.<BR>
<BR>
Then  I became a civilian. Knowing how to shoot down airplanes is not a <BR>
civilian skill in very great demand. So I became a game designer.<BR>
<BR>
Marc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:24:02 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
At 9:02 PM -0800 6/27/00, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>1. the oxygen atmosphere *isn't* all that handy to most of them.<BR>
<BR>
It is for many that feed on reduced organic matter.<BR>
<BR>
>2. unlike the sort of materials they normally feed on, we fight back.<BR>
<BR>
True.  OTOH, the methods that bacteria currently use to<BR>
deal with that are not all that unique and there are niches<BR>
on the body that aren't as well defended that they can<BR>
evolve from....<BR>
<BR>
>On the other hand, anything that tries to pull that stunt *internally*<BR>
>has got to deal with our immune system *and with the fact that our<BR>
>amino acids or sugars (or perhaps both) are the wrong handedness, and<BR>
>thus there's a noticable energy penalty to using us for food.<BR>
<BR>
The amino acids can't be the wrong optical isomer or humans wouldn't<BR>
be able to live.  Same goes for the sugars.<BR>
<BR>
>So, as someone else noted, you'll get some "colonization" by some<BR>
>organisms. And a very occasional case of something that slips by<BR>
>someone's immune system *because of the differences and kills him<BR>
>before it has a chance to spread.<BR>
><BR>
>The fact that our bodies are *so* different mean that an organism has<BR>
>to make the jump all at once, or else rely on strategies evolved to<BR>
>deal with dead matter.<BR>
<BR>
No, "colonization" is an intermediate step.  They don't have to<BR>
make a jump all at once (not to mention bacteria living off of<BR>
dead flesh).  Also, are bodies are not that different, and in<BR>
many ways represent idea environments (organisms that exist<BR>
just as human parasites sometimes have _simpler_ metabolisms).<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:34:37 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re : Vilani Bioscience<BR>
<BR>
>David Summers wrote :-<BR>
>  > You might have a short period where the threat is less,<BR>
>  > but (like the evolution of antibiotic resitant bacteria<BR>
>  > today) it won't take them long to optimize for this<BR>
>  > situation.<BR>
><BR>
>This is one of the points where we will agree to disagree.<BR>
>In the RW, over evolutionary time, the subset of microbes that can live<BR>
>on us is a middling small one, compared to the guesstimated total.<BR>
<BR>
Only because infection of humans is such a small environmental niche <BR>
and there is only room for a few....<BR>
<BR>
>They don't have to be - but the canonical Vilani backwardness in the<BR>
>biosciences demands it, IMHO, if they couldn't cope with the Plague(s)<BR>
>of Duskir in the IW period.<BR>
<BR>
IMO, the way to explain the plague is to simply make them viral.<BR>
It is much simpler than trying against the adaptability of<BR>
microorganims.  Those that look at how bacteria adapt and fill<BR>
niches are struck by how the manage to fill every bacteria.<BR>
That is what is driving the speculation on life an Mars.  If<BR>
every place that has chemical energy, or sunlight, has bacteria<BR>
what does that tell you?<BR>
<BR>
>I noted in an earlier post that colonisation is a certainty.<BR>
>You seemed to neglect the difference between this and the development of<BR>
>pathology in the host.<BR>
<BR>
No.  I didn't.  I just didn't have anything that needed to be said<BR>
on it since the main point I read from that was the colonization<BR>
means that they will be present when lesions, etc., occur and<BR>
it will provide an stepping stone.  But you weren't addressing that.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>I take it (correct me if I'm wrong) that your position is as follows :-<BR>
><BR>
>There is no difference in the burden of infectious disease in the humans<BR>
>transplanted to Vland/the stay at homes, until the advent of sanitation<BR>
>+/- effective antimicrobials. Local micro-organisms move into the niches<BR>
>that certain Earthly bugs occupied.<BR>
<BR>
Not in the long term....<BR>
<BR>
>This is despite the differences in biology, the presence of competent<BR>
>host immunity and the lack of animal and environmental reservoirs, due<BR>
>to competition/nutrient lack, etc.<BR>
<BR>
If you look around our planet, bacteria have routine overcome much<BR>
greater problems (from switching to living off of new chemical<BR>
sources of energy to learning to put of with antibiotics that<BR>
had previously been 99% lethal).<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2679<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2680<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
maps page moved<BR>
Re: Crappy Military Units with Great PR<BR>
Re: Vilani and Bioweapons<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
RE: Doh!  Dumb question<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: Grenade rules<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: The TML<BR>
Re: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:02:21 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 20:51, Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On 26 Jun 00, at 21:28, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > If they're *that* big, I'll use a shotgun, thank you very much. Or<BR>
> > > maybe the SKS with some of the Russian steel-core ammo. :-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Good stuff, that. It'll go through 1/4" mild steel plate at 15 yards,<BR>
> > and right through a goat long-ways at 50 yards.<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> thats a 7.7 on the Ick factor scale for that mental image...<BR>
<BR>
Surprisingly little "ick", actually. Just a neat little .30 calibre <BR>
hole front and back (actually back and front, as I was behind it when I <BR>
shot it).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:07:14 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: maps page moved<BR>
<BR>
It's now at http://maps.grandsurvey.com/<BR>
<BR>
Thanks to Tod Glenn, who provided the site.<BR>
<BR>
Various upgrades since it last appeared; trade routes are much clearer, a few new sectors were added, I added a new set of statistical summaries, which are imo rather cool (and interesting; the average TL of the imperium is much higher than I realized.  50% of citizens are TL 14 or higher.  76% live on pop-A worlds).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:09:19 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Crappy Military Units with Great PR<BR>
<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
> And there's the "motto": March or Die!<BR>
><BR>
> All of these fit well with a unit that produced the battle at Camerone.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
And the unit that had the snot kicked out of it in Dien Bien Phu. And Syria.<BR>
And a bunch of other places. And that tried to lead an unsuccessful revolt<BR>
against their lawful government. And so on.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:18:40 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani and Bioweapons<BR>
<BR>
>From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
>Based on my own recent studying for some projects, I think<BR>
>there would be a number of wildfire plagues among the <BR>
>Vilani of possibly extreme lethality, eventually spreading<BR>
<BR>
>through the entire Imperium, plagues that did not affect<BR>
>the Terrans. I know that T4 canon mentions one of these <BR>
>(the Plague of Duskir). Any comments? Are there valid<BR>
>reasons/inoffensive handwaves explaining why this wouldn't<BR>
>be so?<BR>
<BR>
The Plague of Duskir predates T4.  I think it's first<BR>
mentioned in Vilani & Vargr, a DGP product.  I don't recall<BR>
the details, but it does not seem implausible that the<BR>
Plague of Duskir is a term applied to a large number of<BR>
wildfire plagues (and possibly Solomani biowarfare) that<BR>
crippled the Ziru Sirka.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:21:05 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
At 13:51 -0400 28/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>OK, do I qualify as a gearhead now?<BR>
<BR>
Nope, just a gun head ;-)<BR>
<BR>
You get gearhead when you start posting the designs ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:22:07 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
><BR>
> on 6/27/00 9:33 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Here in NZ you're not allowed mace or peper sprays (they're offensive<BR>
> > weapons). The police sat that it's because they're afraid that crimals<BR>
> > will get it and use it. Curiously the cops have the staff and some<BR>
> > crims have got it - they stole it from the police.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > --<BR>
> > "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> ><BR>
> > A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> Can't have people fighting back, I suppose.  This is the mentality that<BR>
says<BR>
> that a woman being raped "should just lie back and enjoy it".  What<BR>
hogwash.<BR>
><BR>
> BTW, I hear there's something of a scandal in OZ about how the violent<BR>
crime<BR>
> rate went up after the big gun grab.  Heard any such?  Leonard, I think,<BR>
> sent me a bit about this.<BR>
<BR>
It's bullshit use of statistics by the NRA. Violent crime has stayed about<BR>
the same.<BR>
<BR>
The other thing that the pro-gun side just doesnt get is ... guns in<BR>
civilian hands dont kill criminals. They kill other civilians. Usually in<BR>
anger, or by accident. What is the ratio between shot burglars and shot<BR>
family members, anyway ?<BR>
<BR>
That was why you have had pretty much total cross-factional support for gun<BR>
control in Australia. It isnt anything to do with actual violent crime.<BR>
<BR>
We probably could pull this ob-Trav, but it's going into a Gun Control<BR>
argument, so lets change the topic instead ... anybody got any suggestions<BR>
for the next Famile Spofulam design ?<BR>
<BR>
> Interestingly, the violent crime rate here in the States seem to be<BR>
> declining.  At the same time that more and more states are passing<BR>
> liberalized concealed carry laws.  Hmmmmm.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
You can believe that caused it if you want. Me, I'd put it down to<BR>
demographics - less 18 to 25 year old males, which means less violent crime.<BR>
There is also the theory that the kids now are the younger brothers,<BR>
cousins, kids etc of the victims of the great Crack epidemic, and more of<BR>
them have seen what happens in the long term when you make bad choices.<BR>
<BR>
You've also seen some useful work done with tracking down<BR>
ethically-challenged gun dealers, basically by getting all the local cops to<BR>
ask 'Who sold you the gun?' and the BATF collating the results. Turns out<BR>
that some high percentage of guns used by criminals are bought from a small<BR>
set of dealers. Good police work, that.<BR>
<BR>
> I think I asked this before, but ObTrav, does anyone have an idea of what<BR>
> the average law level in the 3I is?  Is it friendly to the idea of armed<BR>
> citizenry in general.  Do the ruling class see the armed populace as the<BR>
> bulwark of the Imperium, or does the Imperial nobility view weapon<BR>
ownership<BR>
> by the unwashed masses as destabilizing.  The great unwashed masses must<BR>
be<BR>
> kept in their place.<BR>
><BR>
> In playing traveller, I've often wondered about the American fascination<BR>
> with royalty and nobility.  It seems to be such an anachronistic system in<BR>
a<BR>
> high tech universe.  IMTU, the Solomani find the Imperial system<BR>
ridiculous.<BR>
> How could anyone base rule on an accident of birth?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Ask Martin Ferguson. Or Geroge W Bush. Or Kim Beazley. Or John-John Kennedy<BR>
(byo ouji board).<BR>
<BR>
> I am anxiously awaiting Rim of Fire to see Loren et al's take on the rim.<BR>
> finally got a copy of cats and rats on ebay as well.<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
> - --<BR>
> "Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
> killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:34:01 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Here in Portland, an elderly women called the ATF saying that her husband<BR>
> had died, and she wanted to get rid of his gun.  What he has was a mint<BR>
> condition, unregistered Maxim water cooled brass-jacket machinegun.  They<BR>
> tried to get a museum to take this work of art.  Sadly, no one was<BR>
> interested, and off it went to Oregon steel mills and the big melting pot.<BR>
> My wife say that it's the only time they've destroyed a gun that she wanted<BR>
> to cry.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
A little Kipling is in order here....<BR>
<BR>
Said England unto Pharaoh, "I must make a man of you,<BR>
  That will stand upon his feet and play the game;<BR>
That will Maxim his oppressor as a Christian ought to do,"<BR>
  And she sent old Pharaoh Sergeant Whatsisname.<BR>
<BR>
From "Pharaoh and the Sergeant," 1897<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  IMHO, Kipling is _always_ worthwhile, so no ObTrav is strictly<BR>
necessary.  However, there is always the adventure hook of the PCs being<BR>
hired for (or, in active duty campaigns, sent on) a Cadre ticket to a<BR>
lower-tech planet....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:38:23 -0500<BR>
From: Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Doh!  Dumb question<BR>
<BR>
At 11:01 AM 06/28/2000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: Laning [mailto:laning@wizard.net]<BR>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 4:44 PM<BR>
> > To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > Subject: Re: Doh! Dumb question<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> >       A few minutes ago, I asked if there were rules for<BR>
> > custom weaponsmithing.<BR>
> > Completely forgot about FF&S books, doh!  But still...are<BR>
> > there any rules<BR>
> > that are more user friendly and less massive?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > --Laning<BR>
><BR>
>Guns! Guns! Guns! 3rd edition (3G3) by Greg Porter, published by BTRC,<BR>
>is a detailed weapon design supplement, with rules for converting to all<BR>
>versions of Traveller, GURPS, and several other systems<BR>
><BR>
>Matt<BR>
<BR>
I use the G^3 and the supplement More Guns. I have made up a spreadsheet <BR>
that will allow you to make some very interesting firearms, like binary <BR>
propellant recoilless rifles, over/under 20mm Semi Auto Shotguns, Full Auto <BR>
20mm Over/Under shotguns(either firing fletchettes(sp) is not pretty), and <BR>
rockets projectiles. Sorry the spreadsheet will not make sense without the <BR>
books.<BR>
<BR>
BTRC also markets a spreadsheet to go with 3G3, iboth can be purchased online.<BR>
<BR>
Sinbad Sam<BR>
RedKneck Arms and Munitions, R.A.A.M.<BR>
Maker of "Bubba" and "Little Bubba" Anti Ship Missile Systems.<G><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:50:01 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 11:36 PM 6/27/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Yeah, that quote is attributed to a French general in WWI (commandant of the<BR>
> >Legion: "You are legionaires so that you may die, and I am sending you where<BR>
> >you can die".  I guess that passes for "Go get 'em tiger!" in France.  I can<BR>
> >probably find the exect quote in one of my books on' La Legion Etranger'.<BR>
> <BR>
> I prefer Patton.  "No sonofabitch ever won a war by dying for his country.<BR>
> Your job is to get out their and let the other bastard die for his."<BR>
<BR>
Based solely on famous French quotes from World War I (without even<BR>
looking at casualty figures from actual battles), one might well<BR>
conclude that the French were particularly bloody-minded.  The following<BR>
quotes are used as a chapter heading in T.R. Fehrenbach's _This Kind of<BR>
War: A Study in Unpreparedness_:<BR>
<BR>
"The capture of this hill is worth ten thousand men!" - Remark by a<BR>
French general on the Western Front, 1916.<BR>
<BR>
"Generous bastard, isn't he?" - Quote from the French general's first<BR>
assault battalion commander.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  The situation between the 3I and the Solomani Confederation<BR>
bears some minor similarity with the current standoff in Korea.  There<BR>
is no formal peace between the two powers, only a military armistice. <BR>
Neither power feels confident that it can force its will on the other,<BR>
so they sit, and watch, and wait....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 03:10:38 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
> Its not only guns you have to worry about.  A few<BR>
years ago I was<BR>
> walking down a street in London  visiting  my  Dad's<BR>
office  and<BR>
> passed a parked truck.  Literally  only  about  5<BR>
minuets  after<BR>
> passing the truck it blew up because of an terrorist<BR>
(IRA)  bomb.<BR>
> My initial reaction was ... "annoyance": I liked the<BR>
area and  it<BR>
> seemed more like vandalism than terrorism!  (It was a<BR>
couple  of<BR>
> hours later before the reality of how close I'd come<BR>
sunk in.)<BR>
<BR>
Whenever there was an IRA bombing campaign was on we<BR>
used to run<BR>
a sweepstake at work. We cut a photocopy of the central<BR>
London Map into<BR>
squares, you bought your square and if the next bomb<BR>
went off in that square<BR>
you won the pot.<BR>
<BR>
After the blitz (there were still bombsites when I was<BR>
growing up) 2-3 bombs<BR>
a year aren't going to spook you.<BR>
<BR>
> Yet many Londoners felt that they were safer in<BR>
London  than  in<BR>
> any typical US city (thanks in part to  all  the  gun<BR>
fights  in<BR>
> imported US television programs we watch).<BR>
<BR>
I remember in the early 1990s the Chief Constable of<BR>
the RUC pointed out<BR>
that Belfast had a lower murder rate than the<BR>
comparably sized Kansas City.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:59:06 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
On 06/27/00 at 04:08 PM,  healyzh@aracnet.com said:<BR>
<BR>
>> >With regard to the air gun mentioned above.  Most people are unaware of<BR>
>> >their potential.  The Austrian army deployed a big bore air gun (.69 cal<BR>
>> >IIRC) during the Napoleonic wars.  It was rifles and held 15 rounds of <BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>  It was a bleeping amazingly effective weapon!  One of the great<BR>
>> "tragedies" that it didn't win wider acceptance and interest in<BR>
>> improved versions.  Which one could argue would have led to<BR>
>> increased death rates for the poor draftees stuck doing the<BR>
>> fighting, so not such a tragedy.  But still.  Now that's a weapon<BR>
>> that appeals to my gearheadedness.  Austrians, of all people.<BR>
>> One would have expected it from Napoleon or the Brits.<BR>
<BR>
No, not the Brits or the French.  Neither were interested in tech in<BR>
warfare.  How long did the Brits keep using "Brown Bess?"  <g> And<BR>
Nap didn't think in those terms.<BR>
<BR>
>Actually this sounds a lot like a gun that the Lewis & Clark expedition<BR>
>took with them....  I remember seeing one somewhere, probably at the Fort<BR>
>Clatsup Museum.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, they took one.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:19:52 -0700<BR>
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grenade rules<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Accuracy Systems was a real US company that was noted for it's innovative<BR>
>non-lethal and military grenades an pyrotechnics.  You will find some of<BR>
>their products listed in "Jane's Infantry Weapons".  I have a catalog around<BR>
>here somewhere (If I can ever find it)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > One last question.  Do you modify blast effects for individuals being in<BR>
> > an enclosed space with the explosion?  A room with closed doors and windows<BR>
> > is a really lousy place to be standing as far as concussion effects are<BR>
> > concerned.  Open the doors, and things get better (may or may not save your<BR>
> > life).<BR>
<BR>
Third bookshelf on the right, section 4, shelf 3, subsection 134c, <BR>
14th spine in from the right.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:44:56 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 4:48 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/28/00 5:16 AM, Matt Bond at MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > I understand what you are saying, but I also understand that at the time<BR>
> > of it's introduction the 5.56mm was decried for it's poor stopping power<BR>
> > compared to the 7.62, often needing several hits to put a man down<BR>
> > compared to one from the 7.62.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I suppose that the higher lethality you mention is due to the fact that<BR>
> > the wounds caused do more internal damage, cavitation, and bleeding due<BR>
> > to tumbling, which leads to greater mortality down the road, but the<BR>
> > actual impact energy is lower and so doesn't tend to put the target down<BR>
> > with one shot. Yes, he's more likely to die in the hospital later, but<BR>
> > in the meantime he's still shooting back. The target hit with the 7.62<BR>
> > will go down due to the impact, and not get up, but has a better<BR>
> > survival chance due to the 'cleaner' wound.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Does that sound right to you?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Matt<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> Actually, I was referring to incapacitation.  While the .308 has more<BR>
> energy, it transfers less energy.  Transferred energy is a function of<BR>
> projectile retardation.  In ball ammunition, there is generally no<BR>
> projectile expansion, so retardation is most effected by the bullet's<BR>
> tendency to yaw and tumble in the target.  As noted previously, the .308<BR>
is<BR>
> a relatively stable bullet, and doesn't start to tumble until after about<BR>
12<BR>
> inches of tissue.  By this time the bullet has usually passed through the<BR>
> target.<BR>
><BR>
> In contrast, the .223 tends to yaw and upset in only 1 or 2 inches,<BR>
dumping<BR>
> it's energy more rapidly, and often never exits the target.  Also, the<BR>
55gn<BR>
> M198 round tends to fragment at the canneleure, creating two or more<BR>
> sub-missiles.<BR>
><BR>
> Early reports on the effectiveness of the .223 round in combat actually<BR>
> noted the extreme wounds that this round produced.  This was with the<BR>
> original 1 in 14 twist rate, which made for a very unstable projectile.<BR>
><BR>
> However, test in arctic conditions indicated the 1 in 14 rate of twist did<BR>
> not sufficiently stabilize the bullet for required accuracy in cold<BR>
> temperature, and a 1 in 12 twist was adopted for general issue.  The<BR>
> lethality of the .223 is well documented in SIPRI's "Anti-personnel<BR>
weapons"<BR>
> (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute).  Any time the anti-war<BR>
> groups raise a hue and cry about stuff like this, the military knows it's<BR>
on<BR>
> to something.<BR>
><BR>
> Concerns  about the destructiveness of the M198 round when fired from the<BR>
1<BR>
> in 12 barrel was a major contributing factor in in the adoption of the 68<BR>
gn<BR>
> SS106 bullet by several European nations (along with better performance in<BR>
> machineguns).  Rate of twist originally specified for this new bullet was<BR>
1<BR>
> in 7, which supposedly produced a more 'humane' round.<BR>
><BR>
> The US adopted a very slight variation of the SS109 round as the M855, and<BR>
> again rifling was specified as 1 in 7.  Experiments indicated that a<BR>
change<BR>
> to a 1 in 9 twist rate would still adequately stabilize the  the M855,<BR>
while<BR>
> allowing acceptable accuracy with the large stock of the older M198<BR>
> ammunition.<BR>
><BR>
> Interestingly, it appears that the new 'humane' 68 gn bullet appears to be<BR>
> even more lethal than its 55 gn predecessor.  This is probably due to it<BR>
> tendency to tumble (still) combined with a longer over-all length.<BR>
><BR>
> Additional material can also be found in "The Great Rifle Controversy" By<BR>
> Edward Ezell, as well as "The Black Rifle" by either Ezell or Blake R.<BR>
> Stevens.<BR>
><BR>
> OK, do I qualify as a gearhead now?<BR>
><BR>
> Tod "Gum Brain" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
All fine and dandy (and informative), but it doesn't really answer my<BR>
question.<BR>
<BR>
As I understand it when 5.56 was introduced it was said to lack 'stopping'<BR>
power compared to the 7.62.<BR>
<BR>
Is this so?<BR>
<BR>
What determines 'stopping' power?<BR>
<BR>
As I understand it the complaint was that it would usually take several hits<BR>
by 5.56 to put a combatant out of the fight compared to fewer hits with<BR>
7.62. Why would this be?<BR>
<BR>
I can see that a 'dirtier' wound from a tumbling 5.56 will have a higher<BR>
mortality post combat than a 'cleaner' wound from a non-tumbling 7.62, but<BR>
what differentiates post-combat lethality from the nebulous 'stopping'<BR>
power?<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:48:44 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The TML<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 12:35 PM, Glenn Goffin at gmgoffin@yahoo.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2649<BR>
>> Thankfully, I have found the TML to be much more<BR>
> open->minded.  Which is probably why I post so much and<BR>
> vent so<BR>
>> often.  it's sort of like being with a bunch of friends,<BR>
>> where you can loosen you tie, tip back a beer and rail<BR>
>> about the idiots of the world.  And whether they agree<BR>
>> with you or not, you'll always get that reassuring<BR>
>> "uh-huh", "you said it" or "the buggers".<BR>
> <BR>
> That is the TML.  Let us know if you're ever coming to the<BR>
> San Francisco area.  We do that literally as well as<BR>
> virtually sometimes.<BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> __________________________________________________<BR>
> Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
> Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
> http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Well Glenn,<BR>
<BR>
I may be in the Bay Area in July for a weeks to work on someone's Network<BR>
Appliance.  I'll keep you posted.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:57:56 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch writes:<BR>
<unknown quote><BR>
> > I think I asked this before, but ObTrav, does anyone have an idea of what<BR>
> > the average law level in the 3I is?  Is it friendly to the idea of armed<BR>
> > citizenry in general.<BR>
<BR>
Per my compiled statistics (http://maps.grandsurvey.com/imperial_summary.html)<BR>
Median law level, averaging across population: 9<BR>
Median law level, averaging per world: 5<BR>
Median government type, averaging across population: 9<BR>
Median law level, averaging per world: 5<BR>
<BR>
Basically, on the large, high-pop worlds, which are really who control the Imperium, it's actually a rather repessive place.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:55:57 -0500<BR>
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>snip<BR>
> > The line is somewhat hazy, but *Most* rounds that travel above 1400 FPS at<BR>
> > the time of impact will penetrate NIJ Level IIIA armor regardless of<BR>
> > construction or bullet diameter (Assuming pistol and rifle rounds less than<BR>
> > 15mm in diameter).<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Rifle rounds moving above 2000 FPS will not be slowed significantly by most<BR>
> > soft armor: your armor will then only serve to soak up your vital fluids as<BR>
> > they leak out...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Hypervelocity rounds (4000 FPS+) have excellent penetration; like being <BR>
> able<BR>
> > to penetrate 1/2" to 3/4" steel plate using conventional copper jacketed<BR>
> > lead bullets): terminal performance is often quite spectacular as well.<BR>
><BR>
>I'd have to question this one.  Having fired a .220 swift loaded VERY hot at<BR>
>metal silhouette targets ( 3/16" steel plate ) I never saw a single<BR>
>penetration. Sectional density is very significant when it comes to<BR>
>penetration.  The is the whole point of using APFSDS ammunition against<BR>
>tanks.<BR>
         I wouldn't question it.  I've done it.  It all depends on how hard <BR>
the steel is in my experience. I've had a chance to do quite a bit of <BR>
shooting at 3/16 steel and some at 1/2".  All of the rifle cartridges we <BR>
fired at the 1/2" went through (7mm Mauser, 300 H&H, 300 Win, 8mm Mauser, <BR>
220 Swift.) Pistol cartridges splattered on the 1/2" steel or left small <BR>
craters.  On the 3/16 steel 44 mag left a huge dent. 45 ACP <BR>
splattered.  All of the rifle cartridges listed above plus 17 rem (not <BR>
tested on 1/2" yet) went through.  Typically we saw holes in the 1/2 <BR>
diameter range with entry and exit holes approximately the same size.  This <BR>
is a mild steel plate used in manufacturing.<BR>
<BR>
                                                 Andy<BR>
- - Copyright  2000 by Andy Holzrichter<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:57:35 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
<BR>
On 06/27/00 at 01:42 PM,  Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>As for the Body pistol vs. bat.  You MIGHT hit at medium range.<BR>
>>If you do hit, and the statistical damage is done, you could find<BR>
>>yourself in deep trouble.  The Mythical average man is 777 for<BR>
>>phyical stats (Talking CT here).  He can take two or 3 point with<BR>
>>little more than a shrug.  He is now really mad.  Provided you are<BR>
>>also mythically average, if he connects with his baseball bat and<BR>
>>does average damage, you are out.  The subsequent blows he<BR>
>>delivers will be on your unconscious body.<BR>
<BR>
>I already agreed that the body pistol is a poor alternative to the<BR>
>club, but to be fair to the little thing:  The guy comming at you<BR>
>from medium range can probably be shot at twice, once at medium<BR>
>range and once at short range.  If you happen to have low Str<BR>
>and/or high Dex, you have a better chance of hitting with the body<BR>
>pistol (I cannot remember the armour DMs, but I imagine that they<BR>
>do not favour the pop gun).  If you have low End, you have to worry<BR>
>about the End limit to HTH combat.  If you manage to do some damage<BR>
>to the club-armed guy charging at you, he may suffer DMs for low<BR>
>Str, may run out of End-limited attacks (if you are lucky), and<BR>
>IMTU may suffer initiative problems due to lowered Dex. You can<BR>
>always try Panic Fire (how lucky do you feel?) or firing from a<BR>
>position that is not immediately accessable (with a little planning<BR>
>:)).<BR>
<BR>
Use Multiple Action rules and let Mr. BP get in 4 shots at the<BR>
closing batter. Gives the shooter a *chance* and looks right. <g><BR>
<BR>
My question is given that each die is handled separately when<BR>
applied to stats, how *can* there be a -anything?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:00:00 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
<BR>
Maybe these ships carried disaffected groups away from an Earth that was<BR>
changing in ways they didn't like. I could imagine a whole range of groups<BR>
that fit this description:<BR>
<BR>
- -Nationalist groups that didn't approve of increasing global unity<BR>
(Survivalists, extremists, etc...). This is alluded to in the GEBES<BR>
adventure on Terra, wherein we         find that the Nepalese royalty<BR>
departed Terra after its disenfranchisement by the increasingly powerful UN.<BR>
- -Disaffected, persecuted or disenfranchised religious groups religious<BR>
groups  in an increasingly irreligious world.  This would account for the,<BR>
umm, diversity of<BR>
    cultures and low tech levels on the Marches worlds.<BR>
- -Groups that were comprised of "persona non-grata" on Terra.<BR>
<BR>
It seems unlikely that STL exploration efforts would "shotgun" sleeper ships<BR>
to the extreme distances of the Marches.  Why would this region of the<BR>
galaxy ahev been chosen to begin with?  It seems more likely that these<BR>
colonists just "went,"  hoping that their crews/computers would identify a<BR>
suitable world where they could establish their little utopias.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2680<BR>
***********************************<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2681<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
Re: Weapon Design (was:  Doh!  Dumb Question)<BR>
Re: Crappy Military Units with Great PR<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: risk perception (OT)<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Tissue as cover (was: Gun Loving PCs)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:03:01 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 4:14 AM, Mark Preston at mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> See there, Tod, that's your perception misleading you again. Official<BR>
> figures for last year made a point of mentioning that the total number<BR>
> of _suspected_ murders in the entire UK in 1998 (1999 figures will not<BR>
> come out till later this year) was less than the number of murders in<BR>
> New York on a _single_ average day!. We could get a LOT more dangerous<BR>
> over here before we even get close to the US.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
 I Think the stat I heard was 'per capita', and on reflection, and looking a<BR>
some of the email sent to me by a friend, it appears that it is the rate at<BR>
which violent crime is rising in the US that appears to have peaked, while<BR>
it is rising in the UK.  I don't want to put my foot in my mouth again until<BR>
I have the exact figure AND source in front of me.<BR>
<BR>
I think the US would have a much better violent crime rate if we had the<BR>
rates of arrest and convictions you have.  As I am often reminded by my wife<BR>
that is the likelihood of punishment and the swiftness of punishment that<BR>
are the real deterrents. I think just about ever European country has us<BR>
beat there.  But then the US has more lawyers per capita than any other<BR>
nation on earth.<BR>
<BR>
I am reminded The King Frederick Willhelm, Frederick the Great's father,<BR>
enacted a law that required that lawyers be required to wear orange, so that<BR>
they might be identified in public.<BR>
<BR>
How does the 3I view lawyers on the Imperial side?  I the US, they witnesses<BR>
take an oath, the judges does and the jury, too.  The only ones not sworn<BR>
are the lawyers.  Make you wonder.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:00:46 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
On 06/27/00 at 10:55 AM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><shameless plug><BR>
>Under ACQ, you could spend AP to aim, increasing your chances of getting<BR>
>a higher damage hit.  Making the task roll by five would double the<BR>
>damage, by 9 triple it.<BR>
<BR>
>So if you have the time to take careful aim, and roll well, you could<BR>
>easily drop him with one shot.<BR>
></shameless plug><BR>
<BR>
Double or triple the effect of each die, or the number of dice rolled?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:04:22 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 3:22 PM, Matthew W. Helton at mwhelton@cox-internet.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Yep, except the projo weight is 62 grains, not 68. :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!.  Never rely on your memory at 3AM.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:09:19 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 04:20:24 -0400 (EDT), shadow@krypton.rain.com<BR>
(Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[Quoting me]<BR>
<BR>
>> Back when I was running campaigns, my party generally was only<BR>
>> lightly armed by comparison to the "typical" RPG story.  Not that<BR>
>> they generally needed more; I tended to run campaigns where you<BR>
>> would do far better to _think_ your way out of a jam instead of<BR>
>> blasting - and my interpretation of law level was more than just<BR>
>> a specification of what the books said you could carry around:<BR>
>> the higher the law level, the more likely it was that the police<BR>
>> would be nosy (i.e., lowered threshold for Probable Cause); at a<BR>
>> lower law level, the cops might not give a damn, but if you tick<BR>
>> off a local, well, just remember that he can carry anything you<BR>
>> can - and he's likely had more opportunity for practice (not<BR>
>> spending large chunks of time in a starship).<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, I have yet to hear of a jurisdiction where a cop couldn't<BR>
>carry weapons that civilians weren't allowed. And with higher law<BR>
>levels the gap between what the cops can drag out if they need to, and<BR>
>what you can legally carry tends to get bigger. Think "SWAT"...<BR>
<BR>
No, bad wording on my part - it was probably late, and I<BR>
half-asleep.  I should have written "... the cops might not give<BR>
a damn, but if you tick off a local [who isn't a cop], well, just<BR>
remember that he can carry...".  Note bracketed phrase.<BR>
<BR>
As the law level goes up, I suspect that the armed cop will<BR>
practice less, because he doesn't need to fire that often.  In<BR>
jurisdictions with routine ownership of guns, I'd expect the cop<BR>
to practice with his own stuff off-hours, like any armed citizen<BR>
would.<BR>
<BR>
In NYC, a cop must "qualify" twice a year, and it's all target<BR>
shooting.  I'm not sure what the passing grade is, but I'd bet<BR>
it's around 70; civil service seems fond of that number.<BR>
<BR>
>I'd say the average cop maybe be allowed to carry stuff 0-1 law levels<BR>
>"better" than civilians. With it going up to 1-2 at higher law levels.<BR>
><BR>
>And at higher law levels there is a good chance of a SWAT unit. Which<BR>
>at high TLs may carry FGMPs on their battle dress. :-)<BR>
><BR>
>NOT something the PCs are going to be happy discovering, especially if<BR>
>it's all because one PC just *had* to smuggle an illegal weapon out of<BR>
>the Starport. <eg><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:09:42 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
On 06/28/00 at 11:34 PM,  "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> This, naturally brings up the next obvious question, which I'm betting,<BR>
>> knowing who haunts this list, someone will know.  What is the armor value of<BR>
>> an innocent by-stander?<BR>
<BR>
>Under T4 and assuming the use of a slug-thrower, 3. This is the maximum <BR>
>amount of penetration a single round can deliver to a human-sized (which <BR>
>presumably includes Groats) target. Any penetration beyond this is lost <BR>
>due to the bullet leaving the body.<BR>
<BR>
Just to be clear, that's 3 dice, not 3 pips. <g>  So, each bystander the bullet has to pentrate would reduce the number of dice of damage by 3.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, a good house rule about the "blow though" value might be to increase the number of dice of damage that damage the target for exceptional successes. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:20:50 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 3:25 PM, Matthew W. Helton at mwhelton@cox-internet.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The .35 Remington reffered to was a Remington Model 7. (I've seen it in a<BR>
> Museum).<BR>
> <BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 12:47 PM<BR>
> Subject: RE: Odd Calibers (was: Player choices of weapons)<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Consulting my copy of "Cartridges of the World" (because Matt's got me<BR>
doubting my gun expertise now) I see that my recollection is correct for a<BR>
change.  The .35 Remington was introduced with the model 8 semi-automatic<BR>
rifle in 1906, and was later chambered in  in the model 14 and 141 slide<BR>
action guns, the model 81 semi auto and the model 30 bolt.<BR>
<BR>
Cross checking in the "Standard Catalog of Firearms" I see Remington made a<BR>
model 7 rolling block (Never chambered in .35 Remington), and a Model 7 bolt<BR>
action rifle, a derivative of the famous model 700.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but I owed you for the M855 5.56 bullet weight :}<BR>
<BR>
I never heard if you got the Teleshot stuff I sent.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:23:22 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun-loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
>And at higher law levels there is a good chance of a SWAT unit. Which<BR>
>at high TLs may carry FGMPs on their battle dress. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Depending on your rules set, this is probably unlikely.  They're overkill on most targets and taking out buildings when you miss is annoying (in GT, you're likely to take out a significant chunk of a building even if you hit, which is even more annoying).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:34:08 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon Design (was:  Doh!  Dumb Question)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 1:34 PM, Rodney Basler at rgb@odetics.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> your aorta would be a little harder to walk away from.  Then again, I'm a<BR>
> .45 partisan (who made that joke about going on a gedanken-trip with Jeff<BR>
> Cooper and Elmer Keith?  Man, I want to party with you!)<BR>
<BR>
That was me, only it was Jeff and Chuck Taylor<BR>
> <BR>
> 2)  Baseing recoil on KE.  IIRC, recoil is a driven (pun alert - sorry) by<BR>
> momentum. bullet mass X velocity / gun mass, modified heavily my geometry<BR>
> and endless other messy imponderables.  This is why it is often advantageous<BR>
> to use a lighter slug in a given caliber.  It can be driven to a higher<BR>
> velocity, giving a greater KE while having a lower overall momentum, hence a<BR>
> lower felt recoil.<BR>
<BR>
True to a point.  If we want to get technical, there are calculations for<BR>
determining recoil energy, but you right, gun design plays a large part.  I<BR>
used to own a synthetic stock Browning A-bolt in .300 win mag.  The gun<BR>
weighted 7.5 lbs and was a truly brutal kicker (and I am not particularly<BR>
recoil sensitive).  By contrast, I love shooting my .458 win mag.  It is a<BR>
9lb rifle with a much better designed stock. Stiff recoil, but no too<BR>
horrible.<BR>
<BR>
> I hate Glocks because the shape of the grip jabs the web of my hand during<BR>
> recoil (light up front, too: whippy recoil IIRC), while the H&K USP fits<BR>
> like a dream.  Many people have had problems with the Colt M1911 .45:<BR>
> during recoil the web of their hand rolls up over the spur of the grip<BR>
> safety and gets quite painfully bitten by the hammer.  There are even<BR>
> 'bevertail' aftermarket grip safeties to prevent this.  I, however, have<BR>
> never had a problem.  (Yes, John Moses Browning is my god).<BR>
> That's what I love about engineering:  It is all trade-offs.<BR>
> <BR>
> Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
I started as a strict .45 colt king of guy.  I now routinely carry my Glock.<BR>
It was not love at first sight, to be sure.  But it is a gun that I can<BR>
shoot very well.  I also like the fact that the Glock is about as close to a<BR>
gun that will last forever that one can come.  Last time I check, Chuck<BR>
Taylor was at over 175,000 rounds through his Glock, and still shooting.  He<BR>
also hated the Glock at first sight, and was determined to prove that<BR>
'lethal tupperware' would never hold up like 'old ugly'.  He's still working<BR>
on that.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Still likes the 1911" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:40:27 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Crappy Military Units with Great PR<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 3:09 PM, Katharine Whitchurch at katts@globalfreeway.com.au<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>> Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
>> And there's the "motto": March or Die!<BR>
>> <BR>
>> All of these fit well with a unit that produced the battle at Camerone.<BR>
>> <BR>
> <BR>
> And the unit that had the snot kicked out of it in Dien Bien Phu. And Syria.<BR>
> And a bunch of other places. And that tried to lead an unsuccessful revolt<BR>
> against their lawful government. And so on.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ian Whitchurch<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Hey, I though all of their celebrated battles were defeats.  But Hollywood<BR>
has surely been kind to the legion.  Personally, I like the SAS.  Not real<BR>
showy, just go in and get the job done.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:41:49 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 11:21 AM, SD Mooney at dom@cybergoths.u-net.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 13:51 -0400 28/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>> OK, do I qualify as a gearhead now?<BR>
> <BR>
> Nope, just a gun head ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> You get gearhead when you start posting the designs ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Dom<BR>
> <BR>
> ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
> "We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
> can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
> http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hey, I'm working on it.  See "The Mercenary's Guide to Weapons"<BR>
httpd://weapons.travellercentral.com.<BR>
<BR>
Accepting submissions, BTW.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:52:53 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 2:16 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (was: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/27/00 4:31 PM, Matthew Bond at mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> > From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> > To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
<snip><BR>
> >> Classic Trav:<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Weapon          Damage      Low     Avg     Max<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> body pistol     3D-8        1       2,3     10<BR>
> >> Ball Bat        2D          2       7       14<BR>
> >> dagger          2D-3        1       4       11<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Where did you get these damage figures?<BR>
><BR>
> LBB volume 1 copyright 1977 page 43<BR>
><BR>
> and yes, my "reprint" shows the same figures as yours.  What gives?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > My CT Reprint shows (Bk1 p.47):<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Body Pistol     3D<BR>
> > Baseball Bat   2D (Cudgel)<BR>
> > Dagger            2D<BR>
<BR>
The answer to 'What gives?' is:<BR>
<BR>
You've been playing with the wrong version for the last 19 years! Heretic!<BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
Seriously, it appears that body pistols were beefed up with the revised<BR>
version of CT published in 1981, which is the version included in the<BR>
reprints. So as your copy is the first edition, it shows very different<BR>
figures to those that I have known for body pistols ever since I started<BR>
playing Traveller, coincidentally enough in 1981 <g><BR>
<BR>
There were 64,320 copies of CTv1, and 184265 copies of CTv2 (including<BR>
Deluxe Traveller, The Traveller Book, and Starter Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
So 25% of all the copies out there are at odds with the rest...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:53:41 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
<BR>
On 06/28/00 at 09:34 AM,  Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>My mistake that the Terrans did indeed dispatch sleeper ships, although<BR>
>not with the intent of establishing an empire as far as I can tell. The<BR>
>Vilani sleeper ships went to very nearby planets with the intent of <BR>
>creating a local sublight trading empire. The Terran ships were <BR>
>apparently very long range (to the Marches from terra by sublight? Wow)<BR>
>settlement missions with a goal I'm not sure I really understand.<BR>
<BR>
IMO, self-preservation.  The Terrans, secretly knowing there was an empire out there, sent developed and sent sleeper ships out to colonize worlds in remote locations just in case. Once sent it would have been very hard to recall them, and the sleeper ships might have had orders not to pay attention to recalls.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:59:48 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 9:33, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 04:13 AM 6/28/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >This sounds like a question for Ian.  Query, according to FFS2, what is<BR>
> >the armor value of tissue?  How many goats are needed for good cover?<BR>
> >(Hey, self propelled sandbags!).<BR>
> ><BR>
> >This, naturally brings up the next obvious question, which I'm betting,<BR>
> >knowing who haunts this list, someone will know.  What is the armor value<BR>
> >of an innocent by-stander?<BR>
<BR>
I'd guess (TNE stats) about AV2.<BR>
<BR>
> ACQ:  It's not directly in there, but since we do use a blowthrough rule,<BR>
> you could easily handwave this.<BR>
> <BR>
> For example, the blowthrough for a human-sized body is 3d6.  Weapons doing<BR>
> more than that lose the extra damage due to over-penetration.  So you are<BR>
> using an IB as a shield, the police sniper shoots (rifle doing 5d6) and 3<BR>
> dice get wasted in the IB, you get hit with 2d6 damage.<BR>
> <BR>
> How much does the average goat mass?<BR>
<BR>
The feral ones we were hunting would've weighed about the same as a <BR>
medium-small dog. Say around 15kg. They would probably have been about <BR>
8-9" through the shoulder and say 2' long. Goats aren't very solidly <BR>
built, except for the head (which mounts horns, and so is fairly <BR>
solid). TNE AV would be about 1.5 length-wise, and about AV0.5 <BR>
sideways, given that TW2000 gave the 7.62x39 DV3 and Pen 2-Nil.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:59:48 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 20:54, Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On 27 Jun 00, at 14:23, Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >  My characters usually have a generic large automatic pistol (or an<BR>
> > > automatic Snub pistol), and a body pistol (though I usually convince<BR>
> > > an equally gun-nut referee to allow me to cook up something more along<BR>
> > > the lines of the COP .357 than that wheezy little 5mm round for the<BR>
> > > body pistol. One time I was actually considering having my character<BR>
> > > hand load and insert an accelerator rifle slug into the bottom of a<BR>
> > > 12mm hollow-base wadcutter, but came to my senses.  [and if Ditzie<BR>
> > > wants to use that, she will have to pay my Aslan merc a nice royalty])<BR>
> ><BR>
> > My GM won't let my use FF&S to design my own guns anymore :( I had a<BR>
> > character with a gun based on the 10mm FrintArms HandCannon from Iain M.<BR>
> > Banks' _Against a Dark Backgound_. I don't think he realised just how<BR>
> > much punch a TL12 ETC pistol can have when using a DS/HEAP ammo mix can<BR>
> > have.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > -<BR>
> <BR>
> What was the GPF (Goat Penetration Factor) of the weapon?<BR>
<BR>
Probably about 2-3<BR>
 <BR>
> In other words, how many small furry animals will it blow up??????????<BR>
> Wahahahahahahaha . . . . eh.<BR>
<BR>
Lots 'n' Lots.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:59:48 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 9:29, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 08:54 PM 6/28/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >What was the GPF (Goat Penetration Factor) of the weapon?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >In other words, how many small furry animals will it blow up??????????<BR>
> >Wahahahahahahaha . . . . eh.<BR>
> <BR>
> While firing a .50ca; sniper rifle, I managed to hiot a squirrel that was<BR>
> on top of one of the range markers.  Not intentional, but my shot went a<BR>
> little high.<BR>
> <BR>
> The phrase "pink mist" doesn't begin to describe the effects...<BR>
<BR>
While out rabbit shooting with my old man I watched him shoot a small <BR>
rabbit at about 15 yards with a .30-06 (he no longer gets to go deer <BR>
stalking, so he's taken to loading his deer rifles with light varmint <BR>
loads and shootinh bunnies with them). The ground was soft from recent <BR>
rain, and when we approached the target area the only trace of the <BR>
bunny was a rim of fur around a four inch diameter hole in the ground.<BR>
<BR>
Another time I shot a rabbit at ~50 yards with a .243, and all we ever <BR>
found was a ear. Usually if you shhot a rabbit with a .243 from the <BR>
right angle all that happens (aside from dead rabbit) is that it gets <BR>
gutted instantly, saving you the bother, but obviously this time I hit <BR>
something a little more solid.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:03:30 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception (OT)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 6:21:pm<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception (OT)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > BTW, I hear there's something of a scandal in OZ about how the<BR>
> > violent crime rate went up after the big gun grab.  Heard any such?<BR>
><BR>
> I can remember a bit of a fuss being made because the NRA made this up<BR>
> for some sort of add campaign.<BR>
><BR>
> To me it seems to have remained about the same  for the last decade.<BR>
> Heroin is the big media bad guy now.<BR>
><BR>
> Phill "hoping not to start a flame war with his first post" Webb<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I hope not either... and neither am I with this post, but I just thought I'd<BR>
add some local input...<BR>
<BR>
Recently - a few weeks back now - in a little town called Nerang, not far<BR>
from where I live, a local antique shop-owner was "forced" to defend himself<BR>
when a group of robbers entered the store and started shooting before<BR>
demanding anything.  One "gunman" was wounded by the shop-owner, and later<BR>
died.  It is surmised that the gunmen came into the store, "guns a-blazing"<BR>
because the same store was subject to an attempted robbery 12-18 months ago<BR>
when the same store owner shot and killed the robber at that time - the<BR>
baddies now knowing the store-owner was armed and not afraid to use it.  The<BR>
owner has now closed the shop permanently and moved his business to the<BR>
Internet.<BR>
<BR>
Before this last assault, I recall discussing it with a couple of copper<BR>
mates that, if I was a crim and wanted to hit that particular store, I would<BR>
walk in as ordinary as I could, ID the gun-user from the previous attack,<BR>
and kill him first before he even had a need to reach for his weapon.<BR>
Luckily, the crooks in this case didn't follow MY plan.  This is the first<BR>
time I have ever heard of this happening (from memory, anyway) - but has<BR>
this happened before anywhere outside of movies and Nerang?<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:08:42 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 4:05, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, if you like that sort of small caliber stuff.  I have some lovely<BR>
> photos of watermelons being hit with my .458 win mag.  We won't mention<BR>
> the crow.<BR>
<BR>
Ohh, yeh. My favourite picture has to be one my parents got of a <BR>
stuffed doll of the Prime Minister of the day blowing up after it had <BR>
been soaked in water and shot by a .30-06 at ~15 yards.<BR>
<BR>
Another sport was to get 1.5L or 2L Coke bottles, fill them up with <BR>
water and plant them in the ground upsidedown. If you hit them just <BR>
right they don't blow up, but instead fly up in the air like rockets <BR>
for about 50'.<BR>
<BR>
If you're wondering why "15 yards" comes up so much in my observations <BR>
it's because there's a little gully out behind my parents house that's <BR>
about that far across. My father also has a 50 and 100 yard range, but <BR>
that's more hastle to carry all the gear out to (and besides you don't <BR>
get to see things blow up as clearly).<BR>
<BR>
> Here in Oregon, we are required to use expanding bullets on game.<BR>
> Personally, I'd like to use that steel core stuff.  Less meat damage.<BR>
<BR>
I don;t think we are here, but I'm opposed to solids for game shooting, <BR>
because of the mess I've seen with goat cullers using it. Too many of <BR>
them are cowboys and with solids they leave a lot of wounded animals. <BR>
At least if they had to use soft points the poor damn beasts would die <BR>
a bit faster.<BR>
 <BR>
> We used to buy 7.62x39 by the ton.  Under $100 US per case lot.  I bought<BR>
> 20 cases at 1440 rnds per case and a 'Ben Franklin' each.  When Olympic<BR>
> Arms made a pistol version of it AR-15 clone in 7.62, the gub'mint decided<BR>
> .30 Russian was pistol ammo, and banned the steel core as 'armor piercing<BR>
> ammo'. Duh?  Gandads old .30-30 will do a number on a vest too.<BR>
<BR>
Betcha my late grandad's .303 "Long Tom" would've, too. IME MKVII .303 <BR>
ammo penetrates quite well, despite being intentionally unstable in <BR>
anuthing more solid than air.<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav:  Just curious if most referees get specific about ammunition type<BR>
> (hollow point, AP, etc) or just let it slide.  I personally don't get that<BR>
> specific, and assume the gun is using the best/most common for that weapon<BR>
> -- excluding things like LAGs, SNUB guns and such.<BR>
<BR>
As a TNE ref I tend to be fairly picky, as it makes a big difference to <BR>
armour penetration, and sometimes damage.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:10:28 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Tissue as cover (was: Gun Loving PCs)<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 4:43, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/28/00 4:34 AM, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance at a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz<BR>
> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On 28 Jun 00, at 4:13, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> >> on 6/28/00 3:54 AM, Robert Houghton at rhoughto@one.net.au wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> >> This sounds like a question for Ian.  Query, according to FFS2, what is<BR>
> >> the armor value of tissue?  How many goats are needed for good cover?<BR>
> >> (Hey, self propelled sandbags!).<BR>
> > <BR>
> >> This, naturally brings up the next obvious question, which I'm betting,<BR>
> >> knowing who haunts this list, someone will know.  What is the armor<BR>
> >> value of an innocent by-stander?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Under T4 and assuming the use of a slug-thrower, 3. This is the maximum<BR>
> > amount of penetration a single round can deliver to a human-sized (which<BR>
> > presumably includes Groats) target. Any penetration beyond this is lost<BR>
> > due to the bullet leaving the body.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <BR>
> <BR>
> So the question becomes, if the bullet passes through, how much energy is<BR>
> left, i.e.  how many innocent bystanders are required to stop a standard<BR>
> auto-rifle round completely?<BR>
<BR>
That would depend on how badly the first bystander destabilised and/or <BR>
deforemed the bullet, I guess (as well as just how unreasonably <BR>
powerful your auto-rifle is, of course).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2681<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2682</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 28 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2682<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: big pointy teeth<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
Re: risk perception [OT]<BR>
Drug Drug (was: risk perception)<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: rats<BR>
RE: Maps & Plotters<BR>
Re: Medical query<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2678<BR>
Re : The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2681<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:56:20 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Ian "Peez" Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>On the other extreme, Traveller weapons are invulnerable (in CT<BR>
>at least).  Are there any rules out there for breaking a cutlass?<BR>
>Jamming an autopistol?  Dropping a laser?  Parrying with a gauss<BR>
>rifle?  What about armour?<BR>
<BR>
My "Traveller as AD&D" rules contain the following:<BR>
<BR>
"Rifles cannot can be fired in melee, but can be wielded as clubs or used to<BR>
Parry. A rifle is sturdy enough to withstand this treatment. If the rifle is<BR>
fitted with any sort of telescopic or electronic sight, roll a saving throw vs<BR>
Crushing Blow at the end of the melee. Failure indicates that the sight is<BR>
destroyed."<BR>
<BR>
"The SMG is equivalent to a club-1."<BR>
<BR>
"Only the Laser Pistol can be fired in melee, but the [other energy weapons] can<BR>
be wielded as clubs or used to Parry. If used in this manner, the energy weapon<BR>
will need to be repaired before it can be fired again."<BR>
<BR>
This was an attempt to model the old CT rules about the delicacy of add-on<BR>
weapon sights, with additions about melee combat.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know of any "normal Traveller" rules about weapons breakages - is there<BR>
anything in 3G3?<BR>
<BR>
As for armour, there are very basic MT rules for armour repairs on a penetrating<BR>
shot, and you could also consider looking up the DGP equipment sheets. I think I<BR>
have a couple for BD under Tavonni Specialties ==> Menelvagor ==> imported<BR>
Equipment, or somewhere like that. Can't remember if it contains prices, but<BR>
certainly has repair time increments.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:18:10 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: big pointy teeth<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<BR>
Mark Urbin writes:<BR>
>often will the PCs be given exagerated descriptions of local<BR>
>wildlife?<BR>
>It may *look* like an ordinary rabbit, but it's got it's got big pointy<BR>
> teeth!<BR>
<BR>
Ahhh yessss... I recall with glee when Duke Nukem payed homage to this :^)<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:18:43 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 3:34 PM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> A little Kipling is in order here....<BR>
> <BR>
> Said England unto Pharaoh, "I must make a man of you,<BR>
> That will stand upon his feet and play the game;<BR>
> That will Maxim his oppressor as a Christian ought to do,"<BR>
> And she sent old Pharaoh Sergeant Whatsisname.<BR>
> <BR>
> From "Pharaoh and the Sergeant," 1897<BR>
> <BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> ObTrav:  IMHO, Kipling is _always_ worthwhile, so no ObTrav is strictly<BR>
> necessary.  However, there is always the adventure hook of the PCs being<BR>
> hired for (or, in active duty campaigns, sent on) a Cadre ticket to a<BR>
> lower-tech planet....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
AHH, you are FOK, as we say (Friend of Kipling). We must get together and<BR>
kipple.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:22:19 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception [OT]<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Trevor, Peter <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 12:26:am<BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception [OT]<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> You sound very knowledgeable, you may be right.<BR>
><BR>
> With regard to the legal status of Ecstasy prior to the  case  of<BR>
> Leah Betts I was 'quoting' from 'common knowledge' ...  which  is<BR>
> itself a product of media (dis)information.  Taking a quick  poll<BR>
> in the office reveals the *perception* to be that Ecstasy  was  a<BR>
> "designer drug", ie chemists had found a legal loophole which was<BR>
> closed after the Leah Betts case.<BR>
><BR>
> The mid 90's  "media  frenzy"  was  something  I  witnessed.  But<BR>
> perhaps the word "frenzy" is overstating the matter.<BR>
><BR>
> With regard to "rare allergic reactions" my source was 2 separate<BR>
> 1-hour TV documentaries by  different  TV  channels.<BR>
<BR>
A young party going lass of something like 15-16 died from an allergic<BR>
reaction to the drug in Sydney a couple of years back, and for the most<BR>
part, many people hadn't even heard of the drug (here) until then and there<BR>
was just such a "frenzy" involved with Aussie media at the time.  The drug<BR>
was of course, illegal well before then, just that it had not been subject<BR>
to the press like this beforehand.  You may be reflecting upon a similar<BR>
situation?<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:19:06 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Drug Drug (was: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
There's been talk about Ecstasy here and in the US media recently, and I <BR>
have a question that might bear, in a roundabout way, on recreational drugs <BR>
of the future.<BR>
<BR>
A host of legal anti-depressants (Prozac, et al) work by putting more of <BR>
that magic, poorly-understood brain chemical, serotonin, into play.  MDMA <BR>
is just a bit more aggressive about it, possibly causing damage to the <BR>
production sites in the process.  (TANSTAAFL, remember?)<BR>
<BR>
What I'm wondering is how long it's going to be until someone "bottles" <BR>
serotonin, in raw form, and sells THAT as a drug.  No messing with the <BR>
user's natural supply, just throw more on the fire.  Can the Medico tell us <BR>
if it's a chemical that can survive ingestion, or would need to be injected?<BR>
<BR>
True happiness in a pill.  Any bets on whether they'd call it soma?<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  The chemical form of wireheading, with all the obvious social effects.<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:06:49 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
>Sounds like the gun my gunsmith friend owned for a while. It was<BR>
>either a "broomhandle" Mauser or a Luger.<BR>
[snip description]<BR>
>Now *that* is a nice weapon "system" if you have a decent round for it,<BR>
>and maybe an add-on scope.<BR>
><BR>
>Anybody recognize it?<BR>
<BR>
Definitely the Mauser, one of my favourite handguns of all time after reading<BR>
about it in an old Gavin Lyall novel. Later I heard that back in the days of<BR>
Prohibition, two well-entrenched gangsters with a pair of these held off an army<BR>
of cops for something like four hours. Extremely accurate for a handgun (<BR>
especially when using the stock to steady the weapon), with an excellent range<BR>
and switchable single-shot/semi-auto ability.<BR>
<BR>
And dolled up with some extra "high-tech" bits, it does quite nicely as Han<BR>
Solo's blaster-of-choice. ;-)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:26:24 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 13:16, Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]<BR>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 2:17 AM<BR>
> > To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
> <BR>
> <snip><BR>
> > This is exactly why the 5.56x45mm ball round proved to be 11% <BR>
> > more lethal<BR>
> > than the 7.62x51mm ball.  The .223 round is less stable when <BR>
> > transiting<BR>
> > media, and generally begins tumbling within an inch of <BR>
> > penetration.  The<BR>
> > .308 is nice and stable, and generally doesn't start to <BR>
> > tumble until after<BR>
> > about 10 inches, barely within the width of the average human torso.<BR>
> <BR>
> I understand what you are saying, but I also understand that at the time<BR>
> of it's introduction the 5.56mm was decried for it's poor stopping power<BR>
> compared to the 7.62, often needing several hits to put a man down<BR>
> compared to one from the 7.62. <BR>
> <BR>
> I suppose that the higher lethality you mention is due to the fact that<BR>
> the wounds caused do more internal damage, cavitation, and bleeding due to<BR>
> tumbling, which leads to greater mortality down the road, but the actual<BR>
> impact energy is lower and so doesn't tend to put the target down with one<BR>
> shot. Yes, he's more likely to die in the hospital later, but in the<BR>
> meantime he's still shooting back. The target hit with the 7.62 will go<BR>
> down due to the impact, and not get up, but has a better survival chance<BR>
> due to the 'cleaner' wound.<BR>
> <BR>
> Does that sound right to you?<BR>
<BR>
Sounds OK to me, but I wouldn't say it was cavitation that was doing <BR>
the damage, so much as the tumbling bullet (or pieces of it) having <BR>
more chance of holing something vital due to the wider permanent <BR>
cavity. IOW I don't subscribe to the "hydrostatic shick" or "large <BR>
temporary cavity" theories of wounding/killing.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:26:24 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 10:09, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  A 2 lb rat would not surprise me, but that is still pretty small.<BR>
>  A Chihuahua is about 1-3 kg (2.2-6.6 lbs) according to the web site<BR>
>  I checked (A typical house cat is easily double that).  So yes,<BR>
>  the very largest rats may be as large as the very smallest dogs.<BR>
<BR>
Which is why Chihuahuas that chase cats tend to have short lives. Just <BR>
because you're a dog (well, kinda) deson't mean you can whup all cats. <BR>
My old neighbours used to have a large tom that is known to have killed <BR>
and eaten at least one, and possibly as many as three small dogs.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:31:02 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 4:44 PM, Matthew Bond at mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> All fine and dandy (and informative), but it doesn't really answer my<BR>
> question.<BR>
> <BR>
> As I understand it when 5.56 was introduced it was said to lack 'stopping'<BR>
> power compared to the 7.62.<BR>
> <BR>
> Is this so?<BR>
> <BR>
> What determines 'stopping' power?<BR>
> <BR>
> As I understand it the complaint was that it would usually take several hits<BR>
> by 5.56 to put a combatant out of the fight compared to fewer hits with<BR>
> 7.62. Why would this be?<BR>
> <BR>
> I can see that a 'dirtier' wound from a tumbling 5.56 will have a higher<BR>
> mortality post combat than a 'cleaner' wound from a non-tumbling 7.62, but<BR>
> what differentiates post-combat lethality from the nebulous 'stopping'<BR>
> power?<BR>
> <BR>
> Matt<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
According to my sources, when the M16 was first introduced to army troops<BR>
(Special Forces) they sent back stunning reports of the rifles<BR>
effectiveness.  Enemy were "rendered hors de combat immediately upon being<BR>
hit".  If anything, the 'stopping power' was probably exaggerated.  I am<BR>
unfamiliar with any widespread complaint of the .223 requiring more hits per<BR>
target to effect a 'kill'.  The most routine complaint was a lack of<BR>
reliability, initially due more to the lack of cleaning kits an the<BR>
insidious effects of the jungle.  The chrome bore and chamber, and rigorous<BR>
PMC cured this. Curiously, elite units issued the M-16 never complained<BR>
about it's unreliability during the war, probably du to the much better<BR>
maintenance these units tend to give all of their equipment.<BR>
<BR>
Do you have a source for these complaints about inadequate stopping power?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:41:35 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 6:26 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> On 28 Jun 00, at 10:09, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> A 2 lb rat would not surprise me, but that is still pretty small.<BR>
>> A Chihuahua is about 1-3 kg (2.2-6.6 lbs) according to the web site<BR>
>> I checked (A typical house cat is easily double that).  So yes,<BR>
>> the very largest rats may be as large as the very smallest dogs.<BR>
> <BR>
> Which is why Chihuahuas that chase cats tend to have short lives. Just<BR>
> because you're a dog (well, kinda) deson't mean you can whup all cats.<BR>
> My old neighbours used to have a large tom that is known to have killed<BR>
> and eaten at least one, and possibly as many as three small dogs.<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> <BR>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
> <BR>
Repeat after me:  A dog weighs more than 10 lbs.  Anything smaller is a<BR>
rodent.<BR>
<BR>
Geeze, my cat weighs 15 lbs.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "wishing his 125 lbd Rottie ate like a chihuahua" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:49:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Maps & Plotters<BR>
<BR>
Fresno???<BR>
<BR>
Yeesh I am _sorry_<BR>
<BR>
I lived there for ten long, hellish years<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Benyamene'<BR>
ZeAbe' Akella<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 1:04 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Maps & Plotters<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/27/00 10:43 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I saw an HP 7475A go for $10 on pdx.forsale a few days ago.<BR>
<BR>
Wow! I would have been tempted even if I had one already! If it wouldn't<BR>
work on my Mac, I'd find somebody who could use it. I looked at the size of<BR>
my map again, and I think I'll have to change the dpi to print it even on my<BR>
Aunts machine, it's 96.4 x 44.2 inches at 72 dpi. Mogumbus! What is the max<BR>
size Kinko's can handle? There is a couple in Fresno I could take the file<BR>
to.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:51:12 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Medical query<BR>
<BR>
On 06/27/00 at 02:32 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>>> What exactly is a "punctured eardrum" and why does it make one unfit for<BR>
>>> military service? One reason I have heard advanced is that it makes a gas <BR>
>>> mask useless, but I find this sets off my built-in doubt alarm.<BR>
<BR>
>I had *both* eardrums *deliberately* "punctured". They installed some<BR>
>very tiny tubes to allow drainage of an infection and other "gunk". <BR>
<BR>
Had that done to me when I was six as part of a tonsillectomy.  I<BR>
had been having recurring ear infections caused by rotting andenoids<BR>
and tonsils.  The tubes were removed and the drums healed, but left<BR>
there was some scaring.<BR>
<BR>
>My balance wasn't affected. What *was* affected was my ability to swim<BR>
>and bathe. I could *not* get water into my ears. I made the mistake of<BR>
>ducking my head underwater *once*. The pain cured me of *that* in a<BR>
>hurry.<BR>
<BR>
I never had balance problems or ringing in the ears, but ear pains<BR>
are a continuing problem for me.  I get stabbing ear pains whenever<BR>
I get a cold, have an allergy attack, when the weather changes.<BR>
(Pressure changes are what does it, I think) I also still get ear<BR>
infections.  Most of the time it's not all that big a problem, but<BR>
when the pain hits I can second Leonard's comments about the pain.<BR>
<BR>
I was in college and then my draft number was high enough so that I<BR>
didn't get called, but if I had I'd have been exempted.  Lucky me.<BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    with pain in his left ear right now<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:54:02 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
Kipling rules.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:06:01 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
<BR>
I thought I'd take a crack at creating a concensus statement before the<BR>
'Vilani bioscience' thread degenerated.<BR>
<BR>
Here goes :-<BR>
<BR>
* The pre-starflight era<BR>
Vland's native biochemistry is different from Terra's, enough to prevent<BR>
the spread of viral diseases between native and transplanted life.<BR>
     Initially, the incidence of bacterial infectious disease was very<BR>
rare ; over the millennia, pathogens derived from the commensals the<BR>
Vilani brought with them, as well as some hardy Vland natives, arose.<BR>
     The community-oriented mindset of the Vilani led to the development<BR>
of the science of epidemiology relatively early. Isolation and<BR>
preventive measures (e.g. sanitation) were the mainstays of treatment ;<BR>
surgery was rarely used, with occasional success.<BR>
     For a time, these were sufficient. The development of immune<BR>
tolerance to various environmental antigens contributed to increased<BR>
life expectancy - the Vilani 'longevity factor'.<BR>
     Microbes (bacteria, yeast analogues) were discovered with the<BR>
advent of appropriate optics. Subsequently, the germ theory of disease<BR>
was proposed, and gained acceptance once sufficiently firm evidence of a<BR>
link arose[1].<BR>
     It was noted that blood as well as certain substances found in<BR>
local life, could limit the progress of infections that failed to<BR>
respond to wound care, abscess drainage, etc.<BR>
     Antibiotics were developed ; immunisation efforts were initially<BR>
hindered by the lack of animal models. Some vaccines based on fragments<BR>
of killed bacteria as well as small doses of attenuated strains were<BR>
used. Passive immunity from pooled donor serum is occasionally used.<BR>
     The advent of antibiotic resistance led to the re-use of<BR>
isolation/quarantine as a therapeutic intervention.<BR>
     Viruses were discovered by veterinary researchers[2]. While the<BR>
fact of the differences between the Vilani and Vland's biota is well<BR>
recognised, the reasons behind it were not aggressively investigated.<BR>
<BR>
* The Ziru Sirka period<BR>
The Vilani travel to worlds which are either colonised with other human<BR>
groups, or have more favourable biochemistries. As infection control<BR>
restrictions are relaxed with time, outbreaks of disease occur.<BR>
     Viral illnesses are more common than bacterial ones. In reaction to<BR>
this (hitherto theoretical) new threat, various research efforts were<BR>
launched. Specific vaccines and 'ethnopharmacology' were the main<BR>
treatments developed from this.    <BR>
     Animal models become available for research. The development of<BR>
molecular biology and immunology is limited by its association with<BR>
sporadic disease outbreaks (role of the longevity factor in limiting<BR>
pathology), cultural inertia (perceived lack of cost-effectiveness), and<BR>
eventual cultural decline[3].<BR>
<BR>
* First contact and the Interstellar Wars<BR>
Terra lay just outside the border of a frontier province. It wasn't long<BR>
before quarantine precautions were dropped between the Terran explorers<BR>
and the Vilani colonists at Agidda/Barnard's Star.<BR>
     For the Ziru Sirka, this event was a minor curiosity - 'back page<BR>
news'.<BR>
     The Terran explorers, traders and colonists brought with them a<BR>
mixture of commensal and pathogenic bacteria, viral illnesses and even<BR>
parasitic infections that had evolved under some pretty harsh<BR>
conditions.<BR>
     Epidemics were only a matter of time. The Vilani were nearly a<BR>
quarter of a million years behind in the 'arms race' between man and<BR>
pathogen. The longevity factor, lack of recent outbreaks, and inertia of<BR>
the Vilani medical establishment were an ideal combination for outbreaks<BR>
to take hold.<BR>
     The 'Plague of Duskir' was the most notable of these. It was<BR>
thought to be actually due to several different viral and bacterial<BR>
pathogens. The founding of the Rule of Man was marred by lesser<BR>
outbreaks, which doubtless played some role in the collapse of the<BR>
Second Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Notes<BR>
[1] Clinically, 'traditional' bacterial culture techniques are<BR>
relatively insensitive, with yields of perhaps 20-30%. Polymerase chain<BR>
reaction techniques and more precise immunochemistry have a much better<BR>
'strike rate'.<BR>
[2] In the course of investigating livestock epidemics, or improving<BR>
meat/whatever yields.<BR>
[3] The Vilani weren't terribly big on basic research in the First<BR>
Imperial Period, hence the tech level limitation.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:17:01 -0500<BR>
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2678<BR>
<BR>
Never cared much for Patton, but that quote is his best moment I must say.<BR>
<BR>
Then again I was a 19E on M60A3TTS tanks. Imagine if you will a tank with<BR>
the fire control of the best M1 and the zippo ability of a WWII Sherman. An<BR>
excellent tank if you're in pre-prepared defenses, but deadly in the kind of<BR>
fluid combat we would have needed against the soviets. Which is why the<BR>
IDF's  Merkava is simply the final word in the Patton series of tanks rather<BR>
than a high tech monster like the M1; they needed the best for a defensive<BR>
war rather than anything else.<BR>
<BR>
Damned if you do, damned if you don't...<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:39:09<BR>
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
> <BR>
> At 11:36 PM 6/27/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> Yeah, that quote is attributed to a French general in WWI (commandant of the<BR>
>> Legion: "You are legionaires so that you may die, and I am sending you where<BR>
>> you can die".  I guess that passes for "Go get 'em tiger!" in France.  I can<BR>
>> probably find the exect quote in one of my books on' La Legion Etranger'.<BR>
> <BR>
> I prefer Patton.  "No sonofabitch ever won a war by dying for his country.<BR>
> Your job is to get out their and let the other bastard die for his."<BR>
> <BR>
> - -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
William<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:24:55 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
<BR>
Sorry about mangling tenses with my diatribe.<BR>
<BR>
I'm wary of provoking a flamefest. A compromise/concensus statement<BR>
looks like the best way to effect a 'win-win' situation for all<BR>
concerned.<BR>
<BR>
Now, back to the ballistics forum...<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:37:01 -0500<BR>
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2681<BR>
<BR>
Just remember that if you ever find yourself in need of a defense council,<BR>
for it applies to both sides. I have known far many more District Attorney's<BR>
that were serious liars than defense lawyers; but then, they are usually<BR>
more in need of falsehood to save their case...<BR>
<BR>
IMHO, blah, blah, etc, - more seriously, this really is my experience - the<BR>
best thing that could happen for freedom in the US is to (literally)<BR>
decimate the population of DA's...<BR>
<BR>
I know we have several lawyers on this list. I respect and appreciate your<BR>
service to the community. It's once a lawyer turns against the community<BR>
that I worry...  <BR>
<BR>
> From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
> Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:11:34 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
> To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2681<BR>
> <BR>
> ow does the 3I view lawyers on the Imperial side?  I the US, they witnesses<BR>
> take an oath, the judges does and the jury, too.  The only ones not sworn<BR>
> are the lawyers.  Make you wonder.<BR>
<BR>
William<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:43:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
We had what the locals called a "Maine Coon Cat." Picked him and a little<BR>
black one up from the pound when they were both about six weeks old. He died<BR>
recently of a heart attack but his last trip to the vet he weighed in at 22<BR>
and 1/2 pounds. From what I was told he was a little on the small side for<BR>
the breed. When he yawned you could fit a baseball in his mouth with room to<BR>
spare. We really never named him but he picked up the nick name of "Big<BR>
Guy".<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 6:41 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/28/00 6:26 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> Geeze, my cat weighs 15 lbs.<BR>
><BR>
> Tod "wishing his 125 lbd Rottie ate like a chihuahua" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:26:03 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
> I think the US would have a much better violent crime<BR>
rate if we had the<BR>
> rates of arrest and convictions you have.  As I am<BR>
often reminded by my wife<BR>
> that is the likelihood of punishment and the<BR>
swiftness of punishment that<BR>
> are the real deterrents. I think just about ever<BR>
European country has us<BR>
> beat there.  But then the US has more lawyers per<BR>
capita than any other<BR>
> nation on earth.<BR>
<BR>
By a significant margin. Part of the high clear up rate<BR>
for murder,<BR>
I'm not sure that clear up rates for other crimes are<BR>
better in the UK than<BR>
in the US, is the manpower thrown at them.<BR>
<BR>
I'll go through Metropolitan Police (that's the London<BR>
Police Force) because<BR>
it might be helpful for running adventures on high law<BR>
level planets.<BR>
<BR>
Once a body is found by the local police, CID (criminal<BR>
investigation division,<BR>
local detectives) does a quick on scene assessement. If<BR>
there is suspision of foul<BR>
play CID contacts AMIP (area major incident pool) who<BR>
assign one of their<BR>
Detective Superintendents (DSI) or Detective Chief<BR>
Inspectors (DCI) plus a 'bagman'<BR>
usually a Detective Sergeant (DS). They set up an<BR>
incident room and draft in detectives<BR>
from the local division, AMIP, specialised units that<BR>
have a probable interest (fraud, flying<BR>
squad etc), the Police Squad (ordinary PCs who are<BR>
serving a probation period in plains<BR>
clothes prior to transfer to CID). This team is usually<BR>
about 30 detectives in all for a run<BR>
of the mill murder, is usually never less than 12 and<BR>
can go as high as 200 for a high<BR>
profile firearms related case or suspected serial<BR>
killing.<BR>
<BR>
This is the routine procedure and is followed for all<BR>
suspected murders, suspected serial<BR>
rape cases, child abductions and any other case that<BR>
the local CID thinks is major.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, one of the things that shocked me during the OJ<BR>
case was the fact the forensic officers<BR>
(in London this would be co-ordinated by a SOCO [scene<BR>
of crime officer]) weren't wearing<BR>
the white all body coveralls that have become standard<BR>
practice in the UK to avoid crime scene<BR>
contamination.<BR>
<BR>
I am under the impression that in the US the manpower<BR>
levels on murder case are lower, probably<BR>
because there are more murders. Its a viscious circle,<BR>
the more murders the fewer resources<BR>
available to investigate, the lower the clear up rate,<BR>
the more murders there are etc. Of course there<BR>
are other factors.<BR>
<BR>
ObsTrav - On a high population high tech world with a<BR>
reasonable law level I suspect it is almost<BR>
impossible to get away with murder unless you are<BR>
extremely ingenious.<BR>
<BR>
BTW: there's no such thing as plea bargaining in the UK<BR>
(at least as SOP anyway).<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2682<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2683</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 29 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2683<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
RE: Weapon Design (was:  Doh!  Dumb Question)<BR>
Re: Weapon Design (was:  Doh!  Dumb Question)<BR>
Re: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
Re: MOS<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
Re: Weapon Design (Sights, Recoil and stock design)<BR>
Re: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
Re: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
Re: Weapon Design (Sights, Recoil and stock design)<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Kipling (was: Player choices of weapons)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2681<BR>
Re: Weapon Design (Sights, Recoil and stock design)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:02:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 12:47, Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
> >Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
> ><BR>
> <snip><BR>
> ><BR>
> >	The same book included a chapter on the custom rifle that killed Bonnie<BR>
> >& Clyde.  A legendary retired Texas Ranger was hired by the FBI. <BR>
> >Pondering the task before him and his prey's tendencies, he went to a<BR>
> >famous gunsmith and had him customize a semiautomatic rifle that was a<BR>
> >.30 caliber.  I don't remember which .30, but I think it was something<BR>
> >considered just adequate for deer but only by a little.<BR>
> <BR>
>  According to the source I read, the weapon used to bring down Bonnie and<BR>
> Clyde was a .35 Remmington.  It was considered to be a more-than-adaquate<BR>
> deer cartridge and the semi-automatic rifle that it was chambered for (I<BR>
> don't recall the model number) is a gun that more Call of Cthulhu players<BR>
> should be aware of :)  The rest of the posse at that ambush were using<BR>
> Winchester pump-action shotguns.<BR>
<BR>
Always rather liked the .35 Remington, but never owned one. I'd really <BR>
like a .350 Remington Magnum, though. Now that's a round that would so <BR>
nicely in a semi-auto (but at that point why not just use the .35 <BR>
Whelan in a BAR?)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:02:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 11:54, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Matt Bond writes:<BR>
> >>A sword you can trust.<BR>
> >"Aye! 'Till t'bastard breaks on yer!"<BR>
> >My character was always having his bastard sword broken in RQ, so he<BR>
> >ended up carrying two on his person, and another 2 on his horse...<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> <BR>
>  Yup, RQ is a bit harsh on weapon durability.  I instituted<BR>
>  house rules to increase the survivability of weapons, but they<BR>
>  still snap from time to time.<BR>
<BR>
RQ3's not nearly as harsh.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:02:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Weapon Design (was:  Doh!  Dumb Question)<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 13:34, Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  2)  Baseing recoil on KE.  IIRC, recoil is a driven (pun alert - sorry)<BR>
>  by<BR>
> momentum. bullet mass X velocity / gun mass, modified heavily my geometry<BR>
> and endless other messy imponderables.  This is why it is often<BR>
> advantageous to use a lighter slug in a given caliber.  It can be driven<BR>
> to a higher velocity, giving a greater KE while having a lower overall<BR>
> momentum, hence a lower felt recoil.<BR>
<BR>
Actually you'll let lower ME, too. You can almost never get the lighter <BR>
projectile enough faster to equal the KE of the heavier one, unless the <BR>
heavy projectile in insanely heavy for the calibre.<BR>
<BR>
>  The "messy imponderables" are _really_ messy.  Take two hypothetical<BR>
> weapons of the same caliber and mass.  Put the weight up front and the<BR>
> muzzle will stay down, but it is harder to bring to bear or to track a<BR>
> fast-moving object.  Put all the weight in the firer's hand and the gun is<BR>
> quick to draw, but the muzzle will whip all to hell, creating a higher<BR>
> felt recoil and a much longer time to recover the sight picture (faster<BR>
> first shot, slower second shot).  Put the barrel up high (think: <BR>
> revolver) and it is easier to sight, but the recoil creates more torque. <BR>
> Stick the barrel really low and the recoil goes straight into the arm and<BR>
> hardly rises at all - but it would be a bitch to design good sights.<BR>
<BR>
Not really, for a rifle anyway. Most modern assault rifles have quite <BR>
high sight-lines (too, high in some cases - see my anti-Steyr AUG <BR>
rant).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:02:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon Design (was:  Doh!  Dumb Question)<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 17:34, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> True to a point.  If we want to get technical, there are calculations for<BR>
> determining recoil energy, but you right, gun design plays a large part. <BR>
> I used to own a synthetic stock Browning A-bolt in .300 win mag.  The gun<BR>
> weighted 7.5 lbs and was a truly brutal kicker (and I am not particularly<BR>
> recoil sensitive).  By contrast, I love shooting my .458 win mag.  It is a<BR>
> 9lb rifle with a much better designed stock. Stiff recoil, but no too<BR>
> horrible.<BR>
<BR>
Want a heavy kicker? My father has a Parker & Hale Majestic in .30-06. <BR>
With a scope it comes in at about 7.5 lbs - not bad for a rifle made in <BR>
the early 60s. It used to have a hard butt plate, and man did it kick. <BR>
A few yaers ago he had a soft rubber butt pad put on it, refloated the <BR>
barrel and carefully added a pound of lead. It still doesn't seem very <BR>
heavy, but it's become a pleasant rifle to fire (IMO, anyway - a friend <BR>
of mine still thinks it kicks like a mule).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:18:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
<BR>
Oops, got me!<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I got the info, most helpful. An old Firepower had an article on<BR>
variations of the Teleshot round (A single LARGE Flechette, and an<BR>
encapsulated shot charge.), and I wanted to see the original.<BR>
<BR>
                                                Best,<BR>
<BR>
                                                        Matt<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 5:20 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Odd Calibers (was: Player choices of weapons)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/28/00 3:25 PM, Matthew W. Helton at mwhelton@cox-internet.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > The .35 Remington reffered to was a Remington Model 7. (I've seen it in<BR>
a<BR>
> > Museum).<BR>
> ><BR>
> > ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> > From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
> > To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 12:47 PM<BR>
> > Subject: RE: Odd Calibers (was: Player choices of weapons)<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> Consulting my copy of "Cartridges of the World" (because Matt's got me<BR>
> doubting my gun expertise now) I see that my recollection is correct for a<BR>
> change.  The .35 Remington was introduced with the model 8 semi-automatic<BR>
> rifle in 1906, and was later chambered in  in the model 14 and 141 slide<BR>
> action guns, the model 81 semi auto and the model 30 bolt.<BR>
><BR>
> Cross checking in the "Standard Catalog of Firearms" I see Remington made<BR>
a<BR>
> model 7 rolling block (Never chambered in .35 Remington), and a Model 7<BR>
bolt<BR>
> action rifle, a derivative of the famous model 700.<BR>
><BR>
> Sorry, but I owed you for the M855 5.56 bullet weight :}<BR>
><BR>
> I never heard if you got the Teleshot stuff I sent.<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
> --<BR>
> "Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
> killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
> --<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:23:49 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 18:41, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Repeat after me:  A dog weighs more than 10 lbs.  Anything smaller is a<BR>
> rodent.<BR>
<BR>
I said "well, kinda". The last we had around here was a nice 40+ lb <BR>
mongrel with a lot of terrier and some bull terrier in him. Lovely dog <BR>
liked people, but only when they were invited in. He found some idiot <BR>
in the back yard who'd climbed the fence looking for a tennis ball he'd <BR>
thrown over. I've never seen a better example of our ape heritage <BR>
before or since (and I'd have sworn that tree wouldn't have supported <BR>
200+ lbs of idiot, either).<BR>
 <BR>
> Geeze, my cat weighs 15 lbs.<BR>
<BR>
For a tom cat that's only middling.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:15:04<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
At 07:00 PM 6/28/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Double or triple the effect of each die, or the number of dice rolled?<BR>
<BR>
The result of each die, after modification for armor and/or blowthrough.<BR>
<BR>
FrEx:  Weapon does 3D, dice rolls are 3,4,6, to-hit roll made by nine, so<BR>
the actual damage applied would be 9, 12, and 18.  Note that a first shot<BR>
kill is a very real possibility under ACQ.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:16:36<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
At 12:59 PM 6/29/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> How much does the average goat mass?<BR>
><BR>
>The feral ones we were hunting would've weighed about the same as a <BR>
>medium-small dog. Say around 15kg. They would probably have been about <BR>
>8-9" through the shoulder and say 2' long. Goats aren't very solidly <BR>
>built, except for the head (which mounts horns, and so is fairly <BR>
>solid). TNE AV would be about 1.5 length-wise, and about AV0.5 <BR>
>sideways, given that TW2000 gave the 7.62x39 DV3 and Pen 2-Nil.<BR>
<BR>
Under ACQ, that goat has a Blowthrough limit of 1D.  Of course, you could<BR>
strap several onto yourself...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:19:47<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
<BR>
At 06:57 PM 6/28/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Use Multiple Action rules and let Mr. BP get in 4 shots at the<BR>
>closing batter. Gives the shooter a *chance* and looks right. <g><BR>
><BR>
>My question is given that each die is handled separately when<BR>
>applied to stats, how *can* there be a -anything?<BR>
<BR>
All of this is addressed in ACQ<BR>
<BR>
Honest, I'm not *trying* to sound like a shill, but the thread is directly<BR>
on topic.. oh, what the hell:<BR>
<BR>
BUY _AT CLOSE QUARTERS_!  The Greatest Combat System For Traveller With<BR>
Penguins In It!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"<BR>
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:24:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: MOS<BR>
<BR>
>Then  I became a civilian. Knowing how to shoot down airplanes is <BR>
>not a civilian skill in very great demand. So I became a game <BR>
>designer.<BR>
><BR>
>Marc<BR>
<BR>
Well, you seem to have successfully made the military-civilian jump.  <BR>
I have extensive experience in ICBM acquisition, which sadly there is <BR>
zero demand--even with defense contractors.  I have had little <BR>
success in making the transition.  I believe it has a lot to do with <BR>
my age--companies talk a lot about "fit".  By the way I believe you <BR>
know a friend of mine--Bob Swarm.  He recieved an honorable mention <BR>
in one of your books (I forget which one exactly).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:29:57 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 20:19, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> BUY _AT CLOSE QUARTERS_!  The Greatest Combat System For Traveller With<BR>
> Penguins In It! -- <BR>
<BR>
If the rumours of Warehouse23 having it are true I'll be buying it in <BR>
due course. Hmm. One question - how easy is it to bolt onto TNE?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:34:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon Design (Sights, Recoil and stock design)<BR>
<BR>
> Not really, for a rifle anyway. Most modern assault rifles have quite<BR>
> high sight-lines (too, high in some cases - see my anti-Steyr AUG<BR>
> rant).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
High sight lines actually *DO* affect hand held accuracy, in an odd sort of<BR>
way. I discovered this quite accidentally when playing around with a<BR>
ballistics program (Oehler Ballistic Explorer). The higher the sight line,<BR>
the longer your effective "Point Blank" range is (To a point).<BR>
<BR>
Say your maximum point blank range for your assault rifle is a 6" circle. If<BR>
you project this circle from the SIGHTING LINE to the maximum distance the<BR>
bullet would be within the 6" circle, you would find that a higher sight<BR>
line would be less affected by bullet drop. Our maximum sight height above<BR>
the boreline to keep within the "effective" point blank range would equal<BR>
your point blank maximum diameter. Strange, but simple once you think about<BR>
it.<BR>
<BR>
Stock design is the number one determinor of recoil and controllability.<BR>
Straight line stocks transmit MORE recoil to the shooter, BUT since the<BR>
force is inline with the stock, the gun rises less, or not at all depending<BR>
on the ergonomics of the rifle. Recoil, even in the heavies is nothing when<BR>
you are standing and are properly holding the weapon. I can go out and shoot<BR>
a buddies' .460 Weatherby all day with no ill effects IF I pat attention to<BR>
how I shoot. Shooting off of a benchrest usually means more, oftentimes MUCH<BR>
more felt recoil. There is a solution. Most shooting benches are built far<BR>
too low. If you were to build on that your torso upright, instead of bent<BR>
into the stock, it would be just like shooting it offhand. Also, an added<BR>
advantage of this type of benchrest is that your Zero will be less affected<BR>
by recoil differences. Sight in a rifle off of a low bench, and then using a<BR>
monopole or high benchrest, shoot it again, and see where your groups<BR>
go...you'd be surprized.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:35:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
<BR>
.350 Rem Mag - .35 Whelen: Same round ballistically. The .350 Remington Mag.<BR>
was a "Short action" round chambered only briefly in the Model 600, and<BR>
command quite a premium price these days.<BR>
<BR>
Reboring a 30-06 or a .280 Remington would be an inexpensive and simple way<BR>
to get a .35 Whelen BAR, though...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 8:02 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Odd Calibers (was: Player choices of weapons)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On 28 Jun 00, at 12:47, Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > >From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
> > >Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > <snip><BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > The same book included a chapter on the custom rifle that killed<BR>
Bonnie<BR>
> > >& Clyde.  A legendary retired Texas Ranger was hired by the FBI.<BR>
> > >Pondering the task before him and his prey's tendencies, he went to a<BR>
> > >famous gunsmith and had him customize a semiautomatic rifle that was a<BR>
> > >.30 caliber.  I don't remember which .30, but I think it was something<BR>
> > >considered just adequate for deer but only by a little.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >  According to the source I read, the weapon used to bring down Bonnie<BR>
and<BR>
> > Clyde was a .35 Remmington.  It was considered to be a<BR>
more-than-adaquate<BR>
> > deer cartridge and the semi-automatic rifle that it was chambered for (I<BR>
> > don't recall the model number) is a gun that more Call of Cthulhu<BR>
players<BR>
> > should be aware of :)  The rest of the posse at that ambush were using<BR>
> > Winchester pump-action shotguns.<BR>
><BR>
> Always rather liked the .35 Remington, but never owned one. I'd really<BR>
> like a .350 Remington Magnum, though. Now that's a round that would so<BR>
> nicely in a semi-auto (but at that point why not just use the .35<BR>
> Whelan in a BAR?)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
><BR>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:03:58 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 22:35, Matthew W. Helton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> .350 Rem Mag - .35 Whelen: Same round ballistically. The .350 Remington<BR>
> Mag. was a "Short action" round chambered only briefly in the Model 600,<BR>
> and command quite a premium price these days.<BR>
> <BR>
> Reboring a 30-06 or a .280 Remington would be an inexpensive and simple<BR>
> way to get a .35 Whelen BAR, though...<BR>
<BR>
That's why I mentioned it. The .35 Whelan being offered commercially <BR>
has pretty much killed the .350, unfortunately. I always thought it <BR>
deserved more attention than it got.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:03:58 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon Design (Sights, Recoil and stock design)<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 22:34, Matthew W. Helton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Stock design is the number one determinor of recoil and controllability.<BR>
> Straight line stocks transmit MORE recoil to the shooter, BUT since the<BR>
> force is inline with the stock, the gun rises less, or not at all<BR>
> depending on the ergonomics of the rifle. Recoil, even in the heavies is<BR>
> nothing when you are standing and are properly holding the weapon. I can<BR>
> go out and shoot a buddies' .460 Weatherby all day with no ill effects IF<BR>
> I pat attention to how I shoot. Shooting off of a benchrest usually means<BR>
> more, oftentimes MUCH more felt recoil. There is a solution. Most shooting<BR>
> benches are built far too low. If you were to build on that your torso<BR>
> upright, instead of bent into the stock, it would be just like shooting it<BR>
> offhand. Also, an added advantage of this type of benchrest is that your<BR>
> Zero will be less affected by recoil differences. Sight in a rifle off of<BR>
> a low bench, and then using a monopole or high benchrest, shoot it again,<BR>
> and see where your groups go...you'd be surprized.<BR>
<BR>
Been there, done that. Try prone, too.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:22:06 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
On 06/28/00 at 08:15 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 07:00 PM 6/28/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Double or triple the effect of each die, or the number of dice rolled?<BR>
<BR>
>The result of each die, after modification for armor and/or blowthrough.<BR>
<BR>
>FrEx:  Weapon does 3D, dice rolls are 3,4,6, to-hit roll made by nine, so<BR>
>the actual damage applied would be 9, 12, and 18.  Note that a first shot<BR>
>kill is a very real possibility under ACQ.<BR>
<BR>
For small calibre rounds that might be *too* much damage. Of course it's on a made by 9 roll too, so it would be unlikely.<BR>
<BR>
I'll have to think about it a little.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:28:29 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
<BR>
On 06/28/00 at 08:19 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 06:57 PM 6/28/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Use Multiple Action rules and let Mr. BP get in 4 shots at the<BR>
>>closing batter. Gives the shooter a *chance* and looks right. <g><BR>
>><BR>
>>My question is given that each die is handled separately when<BR>
>>applied to stats, how *can* there be a -anything?<BR>
<BR>
>All of this is addressed in ACQ<BR>
<BR>
<g> Yes, it is...I think.<BR>
<BR>
>Honest, I'm not *trying* to sound like a shill, but the thread is<BR>
>directly on topic.. oh, what the hell:<BR>
<BR>
>BUY _AT CLOSE QUARTERS_!  The Greatest Combat System For Traveller With<BR>
>Penguins In It!<BR>
<BR>
Hee, hee! Yes, run out and buy the book. It's only 8 bucks and it's worth it, and for that recommendation I don't get a dime. <g><BR>
<BR>
However, for a beer and pretzel games, or the PBEM I run it's a *bit* of an overkill.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:17:03 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
>Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
...<BR>
>I am under the impression that in the US the manpower<BR>
>levels on murder case are lower, probably<BR>
>because there are more murders. Its a viscious circle,<BR>
>the more murders the fewer resources<BR>
>available to investigate, the lower the clear up rate,<BR>
>the more murders there are etc. Of course there<BR>
>are other factors.<BR>
<BR>
  Also a geographically compact, unitary state - not insignificant. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:11:24 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton wrote :<BR>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Good stuff, that. It'll go through 1/4" mild steel plate at 15 yards,<BR>
> > and right through a goat long-ways at 50 yards.<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> thats a 7.7 on the Ick factor scale for that mental image...<BR>
> <BR>
> Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
I get the feeling you wouldn't like Peter Jackson's "Bad Taste"<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:18:23 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote :<BR>
<BR>
> Matt Bond writes:<BR>
> >>A sword you can trust.<BR>
> >"Aye! 'Till t'bastard breaks on yer!"<BR>
> >My character was always having his bastard sword broken in RQ, so he<BR>
> >ended up carrying two on his person, and another 2 on his horse...<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
><BR>
> 	Yup, RQ is a bit harsh on weapon durability.<BR>
<BR>
No it isn't<BR>
<BR>
You have to remember that in Runequest almost all weapons are made of<BR>
_bronze_<BR>
It is very difficult to break an iron weapon in RQ, and there are _no_ steel<BR>
weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:21:32 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Kipling (was: Player choices of weapons)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 6:54 PM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Kipling rules.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I never cease to be amazed at the number of literate gamers I encounter.<BR>
Probably because most of us are 'pathological' readers. It is so refreshing<BR>
to be amongst the literati.  All in the tradition of the Imperium, I think.<BR>
A character should be able to keep the villian at bay with his cutlass, AND<BR>
toss of the occasional bon mot.  Witty reparte is de regeur for any<BR>
adventurer caught in a tight spot.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:31:18 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2681<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 7:37 PM, William Barnett-Lewis at wlewis@mailbag.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Just remember that if you ever find yourself in need of a defense council,<BR>
> for it applies to both sides. I have known far many more District Attorney's<BR>
> that were serious liars than defense lawyers; but then, they are usually<BR>
> more in need of falsehood to save their case...<BR>
> <BR>
> IMHO, blah, blah, etc, - more seriously, this really is my experience - the<BR>
> best thing that could happen for freedom in the US is to (literally)<BR>
> decimate the population of DA's...<BR>
> <BR>
> I know we have several lawyers on this list. I respect and appreciate your<BR>
> service to the community. It's once a lawyer turns against the community<BR>
> that I worry...  <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Everybody bitches about lawyers, until they need one.<BR>
<BR>
I have had many occasions to rub elbows with AUSAs (assistant US attorneys).<BR>
I the main, I found them rather a decent lot.  You have to like the job, as<BR>
the pay is so-so compared with private practice.  I know of several who<BR>
live to but scum in jail, but are honest, honorable folks. Sure, there are<BR>
loads of useless ones  (I'm thinking now of a Portland one who shall remain<BR>
nameless, although his initials are FW).  For really useless legal types, we<BR>
have the Useless (excuse me, US) attorneys, who are political employees.<BR>
Lawyer-politicians.<BR>
<BR>
My observation is still valid.  In a court of law, the lawyers are not sworn<BR>
to 'tell the truth' -- unlike the witnesses.  Our adversarial system.  Very<BR>
interesting to say the least.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "please don't sue me" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:39:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon Design (Sights, Recoil and stock design)<BR>
<BR>
Aye, there is that! :-)<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 9:03 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon Design (Sights, Recoil and stock design)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On 28 Jun 00, at 22:34, Matthew W. Helton wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Stock design is the number one determinor of recoil and controllability.<BR>
> > Straight line stocks transmit MORE recoil to the shooter, BUT since the<BR>
> > force is inline with the stock, the gun rises less, or not at all<BR>
> > depending on the ergonomics of the rifle. Recoil, even in the heavies is<BR>
> > nothing when you are standing and are properly holding the weapon. I can<BR>
> > go out and shoot a buddies' .460 Weatherby all day with no ill effects<BR>
IF<BR>
> > I pat attention to how I shoot. Shooting off of a benchrest usually<BR>
means<BR>
> > more, oftentimes MUCH more felt recoil. There is a solution. Most<BR>
shooting<BR>
> > benches are built far too low. If you were to build on that your torso<BR>
> > upright, instead of bent into the stock, it would be just like shooting<BR>
it<BR>
> > offhand. Also, an added advantage of this type of benchrest is that your<BR>
> > Zero will be less affected by recoil differences. Sight in a rifle off<BR>
of<BR>
> > a low bench, and then using a monopole or high benchrest, shoot it<BR>
again,<BR>
> > and see where your groups go...you'd be surprized.<BR>
><BR>
> Been there, done that. Try prone, too.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
><BR>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2683<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2684</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/29/00 1:06:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 29 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2684<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: customized weaponry, cops, and robber gangs<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Calling Roderick Darroch Elliott<BR>
Re: ancient water-cooled MGs<BR>
Re: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
Re: MOS<BR>
Re: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
Re: Maps & Plotters<BR>
Re: customized weaponry, cops, and robber gangs<BR>
Re: Grand survey maps<BR>
Re: ancient water-cooled MGs<BR>
Re: Grand survey maps<BR>
Re: maps page moved<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2680<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2680<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:43:15 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
on 6/27/00 10:43 PM, Thom Harris at thomharr@mediaone.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> We had what the locals called a "Maine Coon Cat." Picked him and a little<BR>
> black one up from the pound when they were both about six weeks old. He died<BR>
> recently of a heart attack but his last trip to the vet he weighed in at 22<BR>
> and 1/2 pounds. From what I was told he was a little on the small side for<BR>
> the breed. When he yawned you could fit a baseball in his mouth with room to<BR>
> spare. We really never named him but he picked up the nick name of "Big<BR>
> Guy".<BR>
> <BR>
> Thom Harris<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Yeah, Maine coons get really big.  Ours is a domestic short hair (i.e. plain<BR>
old cat).  Mind you, I am a dog person, and never really like cats (they are<BR>
EVIL).  But one can not help but admire a creature that is de-clawed and<BR>
spent his first 5 years restricted to indoors, and is now the tough cat in<BR>
the area and the mighty hunter.  He is now 15 and shows little sign of<BR>
slowing down.  Friends remark (back me up on this Red) that he has the<BR>
softest fur, the result of no other grooming than his daily roll in the<BR>
'special' grooming gravel in front of our house.<BR>
<BR>
When you own a dog, you have a loyal companion for life.  When you have a<BR>
cat, you have a room mate who has his own ideas about things and tolerate<BR>
you as long as you provide food.  Cats are not domesticated.<BR>
<BR>
Which raises another question.  PCs with pets?  Anybody travelling around<BR>
with something weird.  Do players out there have pets?  With a few notable<BR>
exceptions, my players don't tend to have pets.<BR>
<BR>
And what is the ideal ship pet.  We discussed this a while back, but I'd be<BR>
curios to get the List's take.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "sharing a house with a dog, cat, frog, rat, two children (more pets)<BR>
and spouse" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:43:21 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re: customized weaponry, cops, and robber gangs<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 at 12:47:03 PDT, Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
>	According to the source I read, the weapon used to bring down Bonnie and<BR>
>Clyde was a .35 Remmington.  It was considered to be a more-than-adaquate<BR>
>deer cartridge and the semi-automatic rifle that it was chambered for (I<BR>
>don't recall the model number) is a gun that more Call of Cthulhu players<BR>
>should be aware of :)  The rest of the posse at that ambush were using<BR>
<BR>
>Winchester pump-action shotguns.<BR>
>	As for Bonnie Parker, she was partial to a specially-modified gun herself.<BR>
>It was a Browning Auto-5 shotgun in 20ga. (she was a small woman)  It had<BR>
>the barrel sawed off just in front of the magazine tube and had the butt cut<BR>
>off behind the recoil spring which runs part-way down the stock.  It looks a<BR>
>little odd with this necessary little lump hanging off the back of the<BR>
>pistolgrip.  Apparently you have to monkey with the spring a bit in order to<BR>
>get it to work, but when it does it is a devistating weapon up close.<BR>
>Popular with several noted criminals of the era.  (The Dillinger gang had<BR>
>one in 12ga.)<BR>
><BR>
>	Rod Basler, COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
<BR>
	Thanks Rod, that's the one!  .35 Remington.  Very good characteristics for<BR>
the job.  My mistake about .30 cal.  And *very* good point you make about<BR>
Call of Cthulu, too.  Weren't BARs around also by the time of Call of Cthulu?<BR>
<BR>
	Bonnie was small, but tough, and lots of professional expertise in her<BR>
chosen field.  I applaud her shotgun choice.  Shotguns tend to intimidate<BR>
the victims into submission without firing a shot.  (A major reason cops<BR>
like them.)  And if trouble does start up, it's outstanding at self defense<BR>
and at "crowd control".  Wonder if she mixed and matched her ammo for<BR>
various situations.<BR>
<BR>
	Oh, and yes, ambush is the word for it.  The FBI hireling, former<BR>
legendary Texas Ranger, had an informant set up Bonnie & Clyde to show at<BR>
his chosen ambush spot, lay waiting in the bushes with I think three other<BR>
people (or was it two?), and when B&C arrived, fired off hundreds of rounds<BR>
with no pretense of arresting or capturing anyone.  Was it Melvin Purvis<BR>
who hired the guy, or was it J. Edgar Himself?  I think it was Purvis.<BR>
Anyway, the FBI knew full well they were paying somebody to kill B&C, not<BR>
bringing in a consultant to help capture them and bring them to trial.  If<BR>
Johnnie Cochran were around back then, B&C's next of kin would have brought<BR>
a huge wrongful death suit against the FBI and won. :-><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  The characters are discreetly asked to meet with a high Naval<BR>
Intelligence official.  She proposes they be given temporary official<BR>
status as agents in order to track down and "bring to justice" a small<BR>
group of violent robbers who have been terrorizing financial institutions<BR>
in several subsectors.  This has dampened commerce there, and is tarnishing<BR>
the reputations of the Imperial government and the megacorps they often<BR>
choose as victims.  The bandit gang are experts at small arms and vehicles<BR>
of all sorts, well practiced in the tactics of their raids, have displayed<BR>
excellent luck, and have a very loose and far-flung network of sympathizers<BR>
who lend aid in the form of shelter, information, medical assistance, etc.<BR>
to them.  These sympathizers are generally very resentful of governments in<BR>
general, and the Imperium in particular, blaming them for long-endured<BR>
economic hardships.  The robbers have come to be seen by many as Robin Hood<BR>
types who represent the downtrodden people of the Marches, struggling to<BR>
survive in the post-FFW depression under the grinding heels of the<BR>
megacorps.  They are also snappy dressers who frequently leave their<BR>
victims charmed and remembering a clever sound bite.  They have frequently<BR>
made very generous gifts of cash to random members of the public who they<BR>
encounter.  NavInt won't ask questions, as long as things are kept<BR>
discreet, and there are no negative press stories as a result of the PC's<BR>
operations.  Compensation will be generous.  Any Imperial resources they<BR>
might require for assistance (within reason) will be made available.<BR>
<BR>
Second ObTrav:  Researchers have found that all the various members of<BR>
famous bandit gangs in the Old West had interconnections and members moved<BR>
from one gang to the next, down through the decades and into the famous<BR>
robber gangs of the Prohibition era.  In other words, there was a kind of<BR>
"corporate memory" passed down from Jesse James & Co. through those in the<BR>
Barker era and to Bonnie & Clyde's era.  This family tree of robbers may or<BR>
may not have ended when the Mafia became dominant in the US, I don't know.<BR>
IMTU, outlaw groups have connections to past outlaw groups as well.  How<BR>
about your Traveller universes?  I don't think there are any canonical<BR>
examples of this, though.  Anybody know one?<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:54:55 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 7:26 PM, Ben Aaronovitch at bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>> I think the US would have a much better violent crime<BR>
> rate if we had the<BR>
>> rates of arrest and convictions you have.  As I am<BR>
> often reminded by my wife<BR>
>> that is the likelihood of punishment and the<BR>
> swiftness of punishment that<BR>
>> are the real deterrents. I think just about ever<BR>
> European country has us<BR>
>> beat there.  But then the US has more lawyers per<BR>
> capita than any other<BR>
>> nation on earth.<BR>
> <BR>
> By a significant margin. Part of the high clear up rate<BR>
> for murder,<BR>
> I'm not sure that clear up rates for other crimes are<BR>
> better in the UK than<BR>
> in the US, is the manpower thrown at them.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'll go through Metropolitan Police (that's the London<BR>
> Police Force) because<BR>
> it might be helpful for running adventures on high law<BR>
> level planets.<BR>
> <BR>
> Once a body is found by the local police, CID (criminal<BR>
> investigation division,<BR>
> local detectives) does a quick on scene assessement. If<BR>
> there is suspision of foul<BR>
> play CID contacts AMIP (area major incident pool) who<BR>
> assign one of their<BR>
> Detective Superintendents (DSI) or Detective Chief<BR>
> Inspectors (DCI) plus a 'bagman'<BR>
> usually a Detective Sergeant (DS). They set up an<BR>
> incident room and draft in detectives<BR>
> from the local division, AMIP, specialised units that<BR>
> have a probable interest (fraud, flying<BR>
> squad etc), the Police Squad (ordinary PCs who are<BR>
> serving a probation period in plains<BR>
> clothes prior to transfer to CID). This team is usually<BR>
> about 30 detectives in all for a run<BR>
> of the mill murder, is usually never less than 12 and<BR>
> can go as high as 200 for a high<BR>
> profile firearms related case or suspected serial<BR>
> killing.<BR>
> <BR>
> This is the routine procedure and is followed for all<BR>
> suspected murders, suspected serial<BR>
> rape cases, child abductions and any other case that<BR>
> the local CID thinks is major.<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW, one of the things that shocked me during the OJ<BR>
> case was the fact the forensic officers<BR>
> (in London this would be co-ordinated by a SOCO [scene<BR>
> of crime officer]) weren't wearing<BR>
> the white all body coveralls that have become standard<BR>
> practice in the UK to avoid crime scene<BR>
> contamination.<BR>
> <BR>
> I am under the impression that in the US the manpower<BR>
> levels on murder case are lower, probably<BR>
> because there are more murders. Its a viscious circle,<BR>
> the more murders the fewer resources<BR>
> available to investigate, the lower the clear up rate,<BR>
> the more murders there are etc. Of course there<BR>
> are other factors.<BR>
> <BR>
> ObsTrav - On a high population high tech world with a<BR>
> reasonable law level I suspect it is almost<BR>
> impossible to get away with murder unless you are<BR>
> extremely ingenious.<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW: there's no such thing as plea bargaining in the UK<BR>
> (at least as SOP anyway).<BR>
> <BR>
> Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Wow, thanks Ben.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, you'd probably never see that many officers involved in a US homicide.<BR>
and plea bargaining is a direct result of the number of cases before the<BR>
courts.  Admission to a lower crime means resources don't have to be<BR>
assigned to that case, and gives the criminal incentive to confess.<BR>
<BR>
Does the UK have the torturous appeals process that the US does?<BR>
<BR>
Regarding evidence preservation, the success of the defense team in that<BR>
case now means that every piece of forensic evidence is up for questioning.<BR>
It also highlight the fact that if you can afford really good lawyers, you<BR>
have a good chance of getting off.<BR>
<BR>
I can't speak in detail about murder cases, but in federal cases like<BR>
bombings, scene investigators often wear Tyvec suits to prevent evidence<BR>
contamination.<BR>
<BR>
I'm also curious about the roll/power of juries in the UK.  Do you have the<BR>
equivalent of 'jury nullification'?<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  With a system of nobility in place, just what does a jury of your<BR>
peers mean?  Is there high, middle and low justice?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
Of<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:07:39 +0100<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Calling Roderick Darroch Elliott<BR>
<BR>
Does anybody have up-to-date contact details for Roderick Darroch<BR>
Elliott? I would like to talk to him about Famille Spofulam's entry in<BR>
101 Corporations...<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
 <BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) tg+ ru ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:57:10 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re: ancient water-cooled MGs<BR>
<BR>
>>a mint<BR>
>>condition, unregistered Maxim water cooled brass-jacket machinegun.  They<BR>
>>tried to get a museum to take this work of art.  Sadly, no one was<BR>
>>interested, and off it went to Oregon steel mills and the big melting pot.<BR>
<BR>
	Oh.  No.  That's...words fail me.  :-<<BR>
<BR>
	Not being the least sarcastic, either.  Those things were very rare, they<BR>
were beautiful pieces of engineering, they were very significant<BR>
historically, and a mint condition one anywhere in the world is something<BR>
that should be preserved in a museum.<BR>
<BR>
	Best Use Of WW1 Machineguns:  The PPA in WW2 mounted their light trucks<BR>
with pan-fed Lewis guns for use in recon and commando operations in the<BR>
desert.  Same machine guns that had formerly been swivel- or pintel-mounted<BR>
on airplanes with open cockpits in WW1.  I highly recommend the book<BR>
_Popski's Private Army_ by Lt Col Peniakoff.  My copy is an old Ballantine<BR>
paperback (what else?  :-)<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  How *do* you dismount a laser from a Free Trader's turret and<BR>
remount it on an air raft for behind-the-lines ops against the Zhos?<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning (who needs to revisit the Infantry Weapons Musem at Aberdeen<BR>
Proving Grounds, Maryland)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:01:48 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 8:02 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Always rather liked the .35 Remington, but never owned one. I'd really<BR>
> like a .350 Remington Magnum, though. Now that's a round that would so<BR>
> nicely in a semi-auto (but at that point why not just use the .35<BR>
> Whelan in a BAR?)<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> <BR>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Rupert,<BR>
<BR>
I'm curious about the gun laws in NZ.  After hearing so much about the<BR>
restrictions in the UK and Oz, I surprised to hear from such a seeming gun<BR>
devotee from 'down there'.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, my father toured NZ fore several months.  He was mostly (forgive my<BR>
spelling, I have no clue) in Fuquatawny.  I send him down a copy of the<BR>
Shotgun News, a US publication for buying , selling and trading guns and<BR>
accessories, like a giant 'want ads'.  He said it made the rounds with his<BR>
NZ friends who thought it was the coolest.  I also remember sending him<BR>
several Leatherman tools, for which there was a premium.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:05:57 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re: MOS<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 at 13:26:22 PDT, Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
>Subject: Re: MOS<BR>
><BR>
>Via electronic medium on 6/28/00 5:52 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com issued forth:<BR>
><BR>
>>> I've been curious what kind of battery Marc had.  Hawks?  .50 cals?<BR>
>>> Something else?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Vulcan APC. <BR>
><BR>
>Was he in a ground based team or on a chopper? Or other?<BR>
<BR>
	Unless I'm missing something, that would be the M113 armored personnel<BR>
carrier.  A variant had the Vulcan miniguns (and a *lot* of ammo) mounted<BR>
on the top deck and was designated (IIRC) the M125.  So, Marc had M125s (if<BR>
I got it right).  That's not a job I envy.  We probably needn't probe any<BR>
deeper into this unless Marc himself wants to bandy it about.<BR>
<BR>
	Peace.<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:10:33 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 10:18 PM, Matthew W. Helton at mwhelton@cox-internet.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Oops, got me!<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, I got the info, most helpful. An old Firepower had an article on<BR>
> variations of the Teleshot round (A single LARGE Flechette, and an<BR>
> encapsulated shot charge.), and I wanted to see the original.<BR>
> <BR>
> Best,<BR>
> <BR>
> Matt<BR>
<BR>
Check out the AAI DBCATA round.  It used the same concept as teleshot, only<BR>
was a 40mm grenade with it's own integral barrel.  Rather than loading it<BR>
into your grenade launcher, you simply clipped it on the a launching plate.<BR>
Almost totally silent and no flash.<BR>
<BR>
I use a variant of the design for my SolSec "Silent Grenade Projector".<BR>
Interestingly, the design could theoriticall be applied to any straight<BR>
walled case.  "Who needs a silencer, just use MilTech's new silent<BR>
ammunition".  The technology all came out of the can making industry.<BR>
<BR>
"The Coka Cola corporation is proud to announce it's newest product, silent<BR>
coke"<BR>
<BR>
Technology on the shelf and ready to be used.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Yeah, definitely a must have for all the black ops/spook types.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:15:58 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Maps & Plotters<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 6/27/00 10:43 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
><BR>
> > I saw an HP 7475A go for $10 on pdx.forsale a few days ago.<BR>
><BR>
> Wow! I would have been tempted even if I had one already! If it wouldn't<BR>
> work on my Mac, I'd find somebody who could use it. I looked at the size of<BR>
> my map again, and I think I'll have to change the dpi to print it even on my<BR>
> Aunts machine, it's 96.4 x 44.2 inches at 72 dpi. Mogumbus! What is the max<BR>
> size Kinko's can handle? There is a couple in Fresno I could take the file<BR>
> to.<BR>
<BR>
As a copy slave.... The usual is still 36 inchs.... But the Tech Manger keeps<BR>
saying<BR>
we will be getting a 42 inch.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
When Spring comes back with rustling shade,<BR>
And apple blossoms fills the air,<BR>
I have a rendezvous with Death,<BR>
When spring brings back blue days and fair.<BR>
 Legionnaire Alan Seeger, KIA the Somme.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:25:30 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: customized weaponry, cops, and robber gangs<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 11:43 PM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Second ObTrav:  Researchers have found that all the various members of<BR>
> famous bandit gangs in the Old West had interconnections and members moved<BR>
> from one gang to the next, down through the decades and into the famous<BR>
> robber gangs of the Prohibition era.  In other words, there was a kind of<BR>
> "corporate memory" passed down from Jesse James & Co. through those in the<BR>
> Barker era and to Bonnie & Clyde's era.  This family tree of robbers may or<BR>
> may not have ended when the Mafia became dominant in the US, I don't know.<BR>
> IMTU, outlaw groups have connections to past outlaw groups as well.  How<BR>
> about your Traveller universes?  I don't think there are any canonical<BR>
> examples of this, though.  Anybody know one?<BR>
> <BR>
> --Laning<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Very interesting point.  You reminded me that the James gang learned it<BR>
trade under Quantrill.  Perhaps your bandits are the remnants of a military<BR>
unit that was a part of the losing side.  They thus have combat training and<BR>
experience, and a higher level of cohesiveness than your typical robber<BR>
gang.  Perhaps their old unit was crunched by Imperial forces, and they see<BR>
themselves as continuing the war as well as profiting themselves.  If the<BR>
Imperium is seen as crushing local autonomy, and possibly damaging the area<BR>
economy (perhaps quite deservedly) it would be easy to imagine that the<BR>
locals might have a lot of sympathy to the gang, particularly if they<BR>
confined their attacks to the "agents of oppression", e.g. megacorps, banks,<BR>
etc.<BR>
<BR>
I may have to use this one.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:30:18 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Grand survey maps<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 at 15:07 PDT, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>Subject: maps page moved<BR>
><BR>
>It's now at http://maps.grandsurvey.com/<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks to Tod Glenn, who provided the site.<BR>
><BR>
>Various upgrades since it last appeared; trade routes are much clearer, <BR>
>a few new sectors were added, I added a new set of statistical summaries, <BR>
>which are imo rather cool (and interesting; the average TL of the imperium <BR>
>is much higher than I realized.  50% of citizens are TL 14 or higher.  <BR>
>76% live on pop-A worlds).<BR>
<BR>
	This project of yours is *so* cool, thanks!  This is exactly the sort of<BR>
thing I dreamed of when originally subscribing to the TML.  I love you,<BR>
man.  :-><BR>
<BR>
	The population and TL distribution numbers are about what I expected.<BR>
Good to have your confirmation and documented proof.  The trade routes and<BR>
their economic sizes are invaluable data.  The top level map is pretty much<BR>
the map I want to show to all new players.<BR>
<BR>
	And thanks to Tod for hosting, too.<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:39:42 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: ancient water-cooled MGs<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 11:57 PM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> --Laning (who needs to revisit the Infantry Weapons Musem at Aberdeen<BR>
> Proving Grounds, Maryland)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Don't miss the Springfield Armory either, if you're in that neck of the<BR>
woods.  Both places are on my list if I get that far east.<BR>
<BR>
The closest I've come is a tour of the ATF firearms reference collection.<BR>
When you consider that most of these guns were seized from private<BR>
individuals, it's quite mind-boggling.  I have one picture from a whole<BR>
series on my weapons site (http://weapons.travellercentral.com).   See the<BR>
section about.<BR>
<BR>
My favorites:<BR>
<BR>
Sawed-off, amputated stock Purdy 12 guage.  What a crime.  Great bragging<BR>
right though "hey guys, want to see my $60,000 gat?"<BR>
<BR>
I liked the 30mm, and 7.62mm miniguns (yes, I said 30mm).  Also various<BR>
belt-fed machineguns.  Not 1, but 2 FG42s, two weird French SMGs that fold<BR>
up (not MAT49s) and a host of others.  I shot 54 pics, and filled up my<BR>
memory card.  Many of these will be showing up on the trav weapons site in<BR>
modified form, as they are too good to pass up.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, I almost forgot the M-72 LAWS, AT-4 and an honest to goodness Stinger<BR>
(all photographed).  Now the Stinger, I'm really curious about.  How would a<BR>
civilian get there hand on one?  It's not like they leave them laying<BR>
around.  Ad what would you do with one?<BR>
<BR>
"We'll see if that Cesna buzzes the barn again, Martha".<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:45:47 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Grand survey maps<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 12:30 AM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 at 15:07 PDT, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>> Subject: maps page moved<BR>
>> <BR>
>> It's now at http://maps.grandsurvey.com/<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Thanks to Tod Glenn, who provided the site.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Various upgrades since it last appeared; trade routes are much clearer,<BR>
>> a few new sectors were added, I added a new set of statistical summaries,<BR>
>> which are imo rather cool (and interesting; the average TL of the imperium<BR>
>> is much higher than I realized.  50% of citizens are TL 14 or higher.<BR>
>> 76% live on pop-A worlds).<BR>
> <BR>
> This project of yours is *so* cool, thanks!  This is exactly the sort of<BR>
> thing I dreamed of when originally subscribing to the TML.  I love you,<BR>
> man.  :-><BR>
> <BR>
> The population and TL distribution numbers are about what I expected.<BR>
> Good to have your confirmation and documented proof.  The trade routes and<BR>
> their economic sizes are invaluable data.  The top level map is pretty much<BR>
> the map I want to show to all new players.<BR>
> <BR>
> And thanks to Tod for hosting, too.<BR>
> <BR>
> --Laning<BR>
<BR>
Yeah. The stuff IS great.  How could I not host it.  Now to find the time to<BR>
get Grand Survey rolling.  Anthony's maps are a great front end.  Now if we<BR>
make everything on the maps linked into a master database as detailed as the<BR>
content from H&E.<BR>
<BR>
Sigh.  I need to win the lottery, just so I can find the time.  Any other<BR>
SQL mavens out there who want to help (so far, a couple have volunteered to<BR>
help).  I'm still trying to wangle an Oracle license, but MySQL is up and<BR>
running.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "loving the list" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:49:30 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: maps page moved<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 3:07 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> It's now at http://maps.grandsurvey.com/<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks to Tod Glenn, who provided the site.<BR>
> <BR>
> Various upgrades since it last appeared; trade routes are much clearer, a few<BR>
> new sectors were added, I added a new set of statistical summaries, which are<BR>
> imo rather cool (and interesting; the average TL of the imperium is much<BR>
> higher than I realized.  50% of citizens are TL 14 or higher.  76% live on<BR>
> pop-A worlds).<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
That reminds me.  Can you provide a short summary/description of your site<BR>
for the main page at http://www.travellercentral.com?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:50:08 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2680<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 at 17:59:06 EDT, Eris wrote:<BR>
>Subject: Re: Austrian air rifles of the early 19th century<BR>
><BR>
>No, not the Brits or the French.  Neither were interested in tech in<BR>
>warfare.  How long did the Brits keep using "Brown Bess?"  <g> And<BR>
>Nap didn't think in those terms.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	I was thinking in terms of England beginning to have a large number of<BR>
inventors and inventions at that time.  You're right about their military's<BR>
institutional loyalty to the tried and true during that era.  As for<BR>
Napoleon, he promoted invention and innovation by basically putting out a<BR>
lucrative prize for something that would achive a desired result, without<BR>
delving into the details of how the inventor was to get there.  Modern<BR>
canning and denim were both examples of Napoleon's incentive plan inspiring<BR>
inventions for his war machine to use.  I can almost visualize Napoleon<BR>
dictating a memo announcing a large bounty to be paid to the inventor of an<BR>
infantry musket with a range of at least 150 yards and a rate of fire over<BR>
ten rounds per minute.  You'd think no general alive then would appreciate<BR>
more than he the potential strategic value of such a weapon.  In the event<BR>
of course, it was the Austrians who came up with the thing, though they<BR>
failed to exploit it to its maximum potential.<BR>
<BR>
	ObTrav:  I picture Cleon I having a similar attitude towards encouraging<BR>
technological and industrial contributions to the military.<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning (shilling for the military industrial complex since 1805 AD)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:05:08 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2680<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 12:50 AM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 at 17:59:06 EDT, Eris wrote:<BR>
>> Subject: Re: Austrian air rifles of the early 19th century<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> more than he the potential strategic value of such a weapon.  In the event<BR>
> of course, it was the Austrians who came up with the thing, though they<BR>
> failed to exploit it to its maximum potential.<BR>
> <BR>
> ObTrav:  I picture Cleon I having a similar attitude towards encouraging<BR>
> technological and industrial contributions to the military.<BR>
> <BR>
> --Laning (shilling for the military industrial complex since 1805 AD)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
To be fair, the weapon was costly (30 Gulden each) and complicated to make<BR>
given the technology of the day.  Think 19th century OICW.  I mean, the OICW<BR>
is neat (I want one, they look so cool) but $35,000 each?  You can buy a LOT<BR>
of M16A3s for those kind of frogskins.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "still waiting for my OICW video" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2684<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 29 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2685<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Calling all TML gun experts<BR>
Re: Calling all TML gun experts<BR>
Re: Calling all TML gun experts<BR>
MiniGuns (was: ancient water-cooled MGs)<BR>
Re: Calling all TML gun experts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Stopping power<BR>
Re: Prefixes (Was RE: Hitting Ships)<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: Guns, Guns, and still more Guns<BR>
Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:09:24 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Calling all TML gun experts<BR>
<BR>
OK all,<BR>
<BR>
I am stumped.  I am looking to identify an unusual SMG I saw at the ATF<BR>
reference collection.  I believe it to be French, as it shared some<BR>
similarity to the MAT 49.<BR>
<BR>
A photo is available. See:<BR>
<BR>
http://weapons.travellercentral.com/media/fold_smg.gif<BR>
<BR>
for a photo.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "scratching his head and cursing his reference library" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:15:06 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Calling all TML gun experts<BR>
<BR>
Whatever it is, it is not a MAT49. However, I do know someone who will<BR>
know...get back to you soon on this one.<BR>
            Matt<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: "TML" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 1:09 AM<BR>
Subject: Calling all TML gun experts<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> OK all,<BR>
><BR>
> I am stumped.  I am looking to identify an unusual SMG I saw at the ATF<BR>
> reference collection.  I believe it to be French, as it shared some<BR>
> similarity to the MAT 49.<BR>
><BR>
> A photo is available. See:<BR>
><BR>
> http://weapons.travellercentral.com/media/fold_smg.gif<BR>
><BR>
> for a photo.<BR>
><BR>
> Tod "scratching his head and cursing his reference library" Glenn<BR>
> --<BR>
> "Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
> killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
> --<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:20:48 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Calling all TML gun experts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 1:09 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> OK all,<BR>
> <BR>
> I am stumped.  I am looking to identify an unusual SMG I saw at the ATF<BR>
> reference collection.  I believe it to be French, as it shared some<BR>
> similarity to the MAT 49.<BR>
> <BR>
> A photo is available. See:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://weapons.travellercentral.com/media/fold_smg.gif<BR>
> <BR>
> for a photo.<BR>
<BR>
Here's a better photo:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.guntech.com/media/weird_folding_smg.jpg<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:24:16 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: MiniGuns (was: ancient water-cooled MGs)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 12:39 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/28/00 11:57 PM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I liked the 30mm, and 7.62mm miniguns (yes, I said 30mm).  Also various<BR>
<BR>
OK, just reread my notes.  Make that a 20mm minigun.  Anyway, here' a photo<BR>
if you are interested:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.guntech.com/media/20mm_minigun.jpg<BR>
<BR>
Now imagine that someone had this in their closet or basement.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:25:14 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Calling all TML gun experts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 3:15 AM, Matthew W. Helton at mwhelton@cox-internet.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Whatever it is, it is not a MAT49. However, I do know someone who will<BR>
> know...get back to you soon on this one.<BR>
> Matt<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
That is for sure.  See my other post for a link to a better photo.<BR>
<BR>
Tod <BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:40:32 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
on 6/28/00 6:08 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> On 28 Jun 00, at 4:05, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Ohh, yeh. My favourite picture has to be one my parents got of a<BR>
> stuffed doll of the Prime Minister of the day blowing up after it had<BR>
> been soaked in water and shot by a .30-06 at ~15 yards.<BR>
<BR>
You are my kind of guy.<BR>
<BR>
> Another sport was to get 1.5L or 2L Coke bottles, fill them up with<BR>
> water and plant them in the ground upsidedown. If you hit them just<BR>
> right they don't blow up, but instead fly up in the air like rockets<BR>
> for about 50'.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>> Here in Oregon, we are required to use expanding bullets on game.<BR>
>> Personally, I'd like to use that steel core stuff.  Less meat damage.<BR>
> <BR>
> I don;t think we are here, but I'm opposed to solids for game shooting,<BR>
> because of the mess I've seen with goat cullers using it. Too many of<BR>
> them are cowboys and with solids they leave a lot of wounded animals.<BR>
> At least if they had to use soft points the poor damn beasts would die<BR>
> a bit faster.<BR>
<BR>
In general, I agree with you, but given the heavy foliage in western Oregon,<BR>
I was thinking of trying the .458 with 45-70 class handloads and 400 gn cast<BR>
bullets.<BR>
<BR>
Curiously, IIRC, while expanding bullets are required, I think the only<BR>
caliber requirement is center fire cartridge.  .22 hornet anyone?<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> <BR>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:41:34 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Stopping power<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 at 00:44 +0100, Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
>Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
><BR>
>As I understand it when 5.56 was introduced it was said to lack 'stopping'<BR>
>power compared to the 7.62.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Is this so?<BR>
><BR>
>What determines 'stopping' power?<BR>
><BR>
>As I understand it the complaint was that it would usually take several hits<BR>
>by 5.56 to put a combatant out of the fight compared to fewer hits with<BR>
>7.62. Why would this be?<BR>
><BR>
>I can see that a 'dirtier' wound from a tumbling 5.56 will have a higher<BR>
>mortality post combat than a 'cleaner' wound from a non-tumbling 7.62, but<BR>
>what differentiates post-combat lethality from the nebulous 'stopping'<BR>
>power?<BR>
><BR>
>Matt<BR>
<BR>
	Matt, stopping power is usually defined as something like the "the ability<BR>
to immediately render an opponent incapable of further offensive action or<BR>
escape".  Though the "...or escape" is my own little addition, it seems<BR>
appropriate.<BR>
<BR>
	The classical example is from the US occupation of the Phillipines after<BR>
the Spanish-American war.  Some pretty seriously drugged up and psyched up<BR>
Pilipinos would assault the US troops on occupation duty, usually single<BR>
soldiers or very small groups on sentry duty.  Usually bursting out of the<BR>
darkness from close range, with machetes.  The early version of the .45<BR>
pistol earned a good reputation for stopping the attacker cold.<BR>
<BR>
	In other words, it matters naught if your attacker dies miserably and<BR>
unhappily tomorrow if he managed to kill or wound you in the meantime.  The<BR>
idea is that your first shot at your opponent should "put him down so he<BR>
can't get back up".  An extremely virulent and long-running flame war<BR>
existed between supporters of 9mm pistols and supporters of .45 caliber<BR>
pistols for years, which is an even more classic example than the<BR>
longstanding flame war between the 5.56 crowd and the 7.62 crowd.<BR>
Ultimately, the US government's choices were governed at least as much by<BR>
various political considerations as by anything else.  I'm not addressing<BR>
whether it chose correctly, just that it was a very political process.<BR>
There were also factors like logistical advantages/disadvantages of larger<BR>
bullets versus smaller bullets and ammunition compatibility with NATO allies.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
	The basic target ballistics at issue are the following.  A human body is<BR>
composed of soft tissue and hard bone.  A bullet has a total energy<BR>
potential equal to mass times velocity.  The shooter would like to transfer<BR>
the maximum energy possible into the body of his/her target.  Therefore,<BR>
that has the great energy potential you can get, retains as much of that<BR>
energy as possible even as it travels downrange (velocity, and therefore<BR>
energy, will dissipate the farther it travels), and is extremely efficient<BR>
at transferring its energy into a human body.  As you read more about this,<BR>
you discover fun things like the shock wave that tends to travel at barely<BR>
supersonic speed through the soft tissue of a human body from a bullet<BR>
impact, the desirability of having the bullet strike bone because it<BR>
transfer the energy so efficiently that way, the frustration of trying to<BR>
get a really fast bullet to transfer all its energy into a human body and<BR>
not just some while passing through and continuing downrange, and joys of<BR>
having bullets that wobble, tumble, or even break up a bit and ricochet<BR>
around within a human body.  Clever bullet designers have come up with<BR>
several ways to make bullets aerodynamic, streamlined and spinning like a<BR>
nice stable gyroscope in flight, but then become soft, expanding, tumbling,<BR>
fragmenting things when they strike an obstruction like human flesh.  Many<BR>
of those clever ideas are prohibited by the Geneva Convention as inhumane.<BR>
(Thus the book/movie title _Full Metal Jacket_ referring to the irony of<BR>
trying to shoot someone with a bullet that is officially decreed to be<BR>
humane.  Huh?  Then why bother?)  Many of the ammunition characteristics<BR>
that give long range and good accuracy also make for poor target<BR>
ballistics.  And vice versa.  The whole field is fiendish, ghoulish, and<BR>
morbidly fascinating.  Similarly, it's fascinating to study the designs of<BR>
antitank ammunition for the big guns.  There aren't any Geneva Convention<BR>
restrictions on those, either.<BR>
<BR>
	Personally, I'm a .45 booster, not 9mm.  Shotguns are usually even more<BR>
preferable.  When it comes to battlefield rifles, well I feel the choices<BR>
are less clearcut, but would tend to favor an assault rifle in 7.62 NATO<BR>
over one in 5.56 US or 5.56 NATO.  IMTU, the major mod to weapons is that<BR>
gauss rifles tend to penetrate armor extremely well but not do as much<BR>
damage to unarmored personnel as an ACR does.  If the gauss round has to<BR>
penetrate significant armor first, and has energy left, it's all the worse<BR>
for the target then.  To me, a gauss round hitting an unarmored person is<BR>
like having a hot needle drill right them at speeds nearly good enough for<BR>
spaceship battles.  Lotsa energy, but most of it stays with the bullet.<BR>
The bullet will also be so hot that there will be some cauterization of the<BR>
wound.  Those are my personal feelings on the topic.  As we've seen, YMMV,<BR>
and many intelligent people who very learned about these things have very<BR>
passionate and very different feelings on the topic.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Fanatics, (provided by the Ine Givar?) with combat drugs and<BR>
designer drugs tailored to anasthetize them and generate huge amounts of<BR>
adrenaline, testosterone, and otherwise warp their mood state into extreme<BR>
aggressiveness, would make formidable foes in guerilla raids on Imperium<BR>
forces.  What would be the weapon of choice for sentries on duty in zones<BR>
where attacks occur?  Perhaps firing a tranq round with a chemical cocktail<BR>
capable of defeating the attacker's own chemical cocktail?  Sounds too<BR>
difficult.  A tranq round with a really nasty nerve agent?  A thud gun?<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:41:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Prefixes (Was RE: Hitting Ships)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>><BR>
>> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:02:07 PST<BR>
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>> Subject: Re: Hitting Ships<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>> And a handy list of prefixes:<BR>
>><BR>
>> 1e24   Y   yotto<BR>
>> 1e21   Z   zetta<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>> 1e-21  z   zepto<BR>
>> 1e-24  y   yocto<BR>
>><BR>
>> Note that prefixes are *never* combined. So it's 1 Mg, not 1 kkg.<BR>
>><BR>
>         Are Zetta-/Yotto- really official, real prefixes? I've seen Exa-<BR>
> before, but never anything beyond that.<BR>
<BR>
Yep. They're official. I got the list out of the section on SI units in<BR>
the 1999 CRC Handbook of Physics and Chemistry<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:52:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/27/00 11:12 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> Sounds like the gun my gunsmith friend owned for a while. It was<BR>
>> either a "broomhandle" Mauser or a Luger. It came in a nice case which<BR>
>> contained the pistol, an 18 inch barrel, a wooden holster that doubled<BR>
>> as a stock, an extended magazine, etc. I seem to recall that some<BR>
>> versions included a silencer. All in a case small enough that *two* of<BR>
>> them would fit in many attache cases, and it came this way from the<BR>
>> *factory*. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Now *that* is a nice weapon "system" if you have a decent round for it,<BR>
>> and maybe an add-on scope.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Anybody recognize it? (And yes, I'm aware that it's probably either<BR>
>> illegal now, or requires a *lot* of paperwork and "transfer tax").<BR>
><BR>
> That's a tough one, as there are several guns that fit that description.<BR>
> The time between the turn of the century and WWII saw quite a few<BR>
> pistol-carbines.  Starting from the Borchart, and including the Astras,<BR>
> Lugers, Mauser C-96 variants (Broomhandles), Bergmann 'Mars', etc.<BR>
<BR>
Like I said, id was either a luger or a mauser. Does having an extended<BR>
(but not drum) magazine help? The phrase "snail magazine" pops into my<BR>
head.<BR>
<BR>
> The Mauser C-96 is often found with a hollow wooden holster/stock.  And I<BR>
> have seen an example fitted with a Maxim suppressor and a very tiny<BR>
> telescopic sight.  This could easily have been such a gun, and may have been<BR>
> old enough to have been grand-fathered in under the 1934 NFA or one of the<BR>
> subsequent amnesty periods.  Or not.<BR>
<BR>
Since my friend is dead and his wife had a friend who once had an FFL<BR>
take the guns (and dispse of anything "questionable"), I can admit that<BR>
he wasn't always all that scrupulous about the firearms law. I *know*<BR>
that at one point he had a "de-activated" Thompson reciever that he'd<BR>
repaired... <BR>
<BR>
> Here in Portland, an elderly women called the ATF saying that her husband<BR>
> had died, and she wanted to get rid of his gun.  What he has was a mint<BR>
> condition, unregistered Maxim water cooled brass-jacket machinegun.  They<BR>
> tried to get a museum to take this work of art.  Sadly, no one was<BR>
> interested, and off it went to Oregon steel mills and the big melting pot.<BR>
> My wife say that it's the only time they've destroyed a gun that she wanted<BR>
> to cry.<BR>
<BR>
Arrgghhh!<BR>
<BR>
I suppose that there's no way it could have been registered by a<BR>
collector? <BR>
<BR>
BTW, there are rumors of a 105 somewhee in the West hills. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav;  Just because the PC's are trapped on a high law level world and in<BR>
> need of hardware doesn't mean they're out of luck.<BR>
<BR>
> "Hey, that's a Langthorn M86 Phased plasma rifle!  ma'am, did your Elmer<BR>
> bring anything else home from the war?"<BR>
><BR>
> "Just old Betsy.  She's out in the barn."<BR>
><BR>
> Much glance exchanging by the PCs before they all scurry from their places<BR>
> to check out 'Betsy'.<BR>
<BR>
"Unit BTSE of the Line, ready for duty!"<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:00:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 at 22:12:07 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
>><BR>
>>Sounds like the gun my gunsmith friend owned for a while. It was<BR>
>>either a "broomhandle" Mauser or a Luger. It came in a nice case which<BR>
>>contained the pistol, an 18 inch barrel, a wooden holster that doubled<BR>
>>as a stock, an extended magazine, etc. I seem to recall that some<BR>
>>versions included a silencer. All in a case small enough that *two* of<BR>
>>them would fit in many attache cases, and it came this way from the<BR>
>>*factory*. <BR>
>><BR>
>>Anybody recognize it? (And yes, I'm aware that it's probably either<BR>
>>illegal now, or requires a *lot* of paperwork and "transfer tax").<BR>
><BR>
>    Sounds like the broomhandle Mausers, a la Winston Churchill fame.  I *had*<BR>
> a book from Guns & Ammo circa 1980 about famous pistols and rifles, and<BR>
> they included this one.  I definitely remember the extra long spare barrel,<BR>
> as well as the wooden holster that doubled as a stock, and I think the<BR>
> extended magazine.  Though lots of pistols have come with the extra barrel<BR>
> like that over the years. Probably some with the wooden holster/stock thing<BR>
> too, though memory fails me.  Anyway, the handgrip on those was very<BR>
> distinctive, so you should be able to tell from that.<BR>
<BR>
This was 25 years ago. Does it help that the whole "kit" was in a<BR>
fitted case and came that way from the factory?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:04:34 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:36 PM 6/27/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Yeah, that quote is attributed to a French general in WWI (commandant of the<BR>
>>Legion: "You are legionaires so that you may die, and I am sending you where<BR>
>>you can die".  I guess that passes for "Go get 'em tiger!" in France.  I can<BR>
>>probably find the exect quote in one of my books on' La Legion Etranger'.<BR>
><BR>
> I prefer Patton.  "No sonofabitch ever won a war by dying for his country.<BR>
> Your job is to get out their and let the other bastard die for his."<BR>
<BR>
Well, for Legionaires, it isn't *their* country. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:06:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav:  The situation between the 3I and the Solomani Confederation<BR>
> bears some minor similarity with the current standoff in Korea.  There<BR>
> is no formal peace between the two powers, only a military armistice. <BR>
> Neither power feels confident that it can force its will on the other,<BR>
> so they sit, and watch, and wait....<BR>
<BR>
I wonder where they hold talks? And what sort of "dominance games" they<BR>
play. You know, the equivalent the silliness with the flagpoles. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:09:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Guns, Guns, and still more Guns<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> My character used a laser pistol and a dagger. Plus he had an ancient<BR>
> terran black-powder smoothbore musket. <BR>
<BR>
A better idea might be the turn of the century "riot gun" I heard<BR>
about. Double barrel *8* gauge. Rocksalt in one barrel, birdshot in the<BR>
other.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:11:46 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/27/00 10:40 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Who ever heard of a *beaver* skin coat?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I haven't seen a nutria yet, but I have seen racoons, deer, and possum<BR>
>> in the city. And found tracks that I suspect were elk in Forest Park.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Now *possum* makes a good "giant rat"... :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, but Forest Park is the largest park in the US that falls within a city<BR>
> limits.  We're not talking urban green strip.  And for all you New Yorkers<BR>
> out there: Central Park is tiny.<BR>
<BR>
A quick check of the map shows that the park is roughly 9 miles long by<BR>
a mile wide.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:19:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
><BR>
>> > I haven't seen a nutria yet, but I have seen racoons, deer, and possum<BR>
>> > in the city. And found tracks that I suspect were elk in Forest Park.<BR>
>> Yes, but Forest Park is the largest park in the US that falls within a city<BR>
>> limits.  We're not talking urban green strip.  And for all you New Yorkers<BR>
>> out there: Central Park is tiny.<BR>
><BR>
> How big is Forest Park?<BR>
><BR>
> Chugach State Park in Alaska is 495,000 acres (about 773 <BR>
> square miles and about 2,000 sq. km). It is within the<BR>
> boundaries of the Municipality of Anchorage. (A municipality<BR>
> is similar to a combined city & county).<BR>
> It borders the (5.6 million acre) Chugach National Forest<BR>
> and a number of other federal, state, and native corporation,<BR>
> lands.<BR>
<BR>
Forest Park is entirely withint the *city* limits of Portland. It's<BR>
about 9 miles long by a mile wide. And it's a *city* park, not a state<BR>
park. <BR>
<BR>
We also have the smallest city park in the world. Mill Ends Park &<BR>
Leprechaun Preserve. It's on a traffic island downtown. Some years back<BR>
when they had the street torn up for construction for months on end,<BR>
the park was transplanted to a corner of the Park Commissioner's desk.<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
It's about 18 inches in diameter...<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: Most planets in Traveller have fairly low populations<BR>
> with about 500,000 being the statistically expected result.<BR>
> Land should be cheap on most planets. Environmental concerns<BR>
> are probably less (possibly much less) than on modern day Earth. <BR>
<BR>
> Typical attitude on a low population planet: "So what if <BR>
> dumping the mine tailings into the river will kill all life <BR>
> within its watershed, that's only 5 million hectares. <BR>
> (about 3,100 square miles) It's a big planet and we've got tens <BR>
> of thousands more planets."<BR>
<BR>
> Just like any other good the value that an individual places<BR>
> on the environmental will depend on how much of it<BR>
> is available. (As quantity supplied increases market equilibrium<BR>
> price decreases) Given that (on non high pop planets) much more<BR>
> environment is available it should be much less valuable. OTOH<BR>
> if most planetary environments have already been wrecked by<BR>
> past reckless pollution then pristine environments may be<BR>
> valuable.<BR>
<BR>
More to the point, there are likely to be many historical incidents of<BR>
"minor" damage resulting in an ecological chain reaction that rendered<BR>
a world uninhabitable.<BR>
<BR>
This could be a *really* bad thing on a planet where ships visit maybe<BR>
once every 6 months or so. <BR>
<BR>
I expect that "decent" planets will (mostly) treated rather better than<BR>
we treat Earth. It's the planets that are hellholes already where folks<BR>
won't care much, as long as it doesn't interfere with the life support<BR>
systems. <BR>
<BR>
The sad cases will be "hellholes" for us that have a flourishing native<BR>
ecology... <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:27:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Forest park is within the city, not county, limits and is 4,600 acres.<BR>
<BR>
So it's a bit over 7 square miles.<BR>
<BR>
> My guide to Portland also notes "tiny 24 inch Mills End Park".<BR>
<BR>
You've never seen it?!<BR>
<BR>
It's in the middle of Front Avenue, down around the area they always<BR>
put the Rose Festival Fun Center. Theres a big brass plaque on a<BR>
pedestal at a street corner on the west side of the street. The park is<BR>
at the end of the traffic island in the middle of the street. <BR>
<BR>
I don't recall the cross street, but it's not all that hard to find. <BR>
<BR>
Obtrav: a similar park, or perhaps "sacred shrine" has been *stolen*.<BR>
The PCs are hired to recover it. Or maybe they were hired to steal it. <BR>
<BR>
Either way, transporting it without killing the plants (or infesting<BR>
the ship with any insects or other creatures that live in it) is going<BR>
to call for skills most parties don't have. <eg><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:46:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In playing traveller, I've often wondered about the American fascination<BR>
> with royalty and nobility.  It seems to be such an anachronistic system in a<BR>
> high tech universe.  IMTU, the Solomani find the Imperial system ridiculous.<BR>
> How could anyone base rule on an accident of birth?<BR>
<BR>
And the Imperial wonder how anyone can expect to get good decision<BR>
makers via a popularity contest. After all, with hereditary positions,<BR>
one can see to it that the heir (and the next one or two people in<BR>
line, just in case) get the right sort of training.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, given the way communications work in Traveller, you have<BR>
to give a *lot* of authority to the man on the scene. No chance to<BR>
consult with the capital. <BR>
<BR>
And while it would *appear* that the Imperium isn't such a system,<BR>
there have been "nobility" systems that had some good methods for<BR>
avoiding the "accident of birth" problem.<BR>
<BR>
Mostly, they eliminated the idea of "firstborn always succedes parent".<BR>
*All* their people within a certain "degree" of the position (children<BR>
of the current holder, siblings of the current holder or of the current<BR>
holder's spouse, maybe all the way out to first cousins) were<BR>
*eligible*. And it was sometimes possible to be *adopted* into the line<BR>
of succession.<BR>
<BR>
Some had the current holder appoint the heir. Others required<BR>
confirmation from a higher noble, or for rulers from a moot/parliment<BR>
analog. <BR>
<BR>
Setups like that might work *better* than any true democracy. BTW, note<BR>
that we are not *quite* a true democracy (things like Congress, and<BR>
the Bill of Rights prevent that for the moment. We were not founded as<BR>
a democracy, and democracies have a *really* lousy record historically.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:57:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
><BR>
>>He grabbed the nearest weapon (a Japenese sword hung on <BR>
>>the wall) and badly wounded one of the burglars as they <BR>
>>made their escape. <BR>
><BR>
> I hope the guy who got rifle-butted was ok.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, he mostly just got knocked down. He had a *very* thick skull. (So<BR>
thick that I'm told he survived at atempt to blow his own brains out<BR>
with a pistol some years later)<BR>
<BR>
> Cut to scene at the emergency room:<BR>
><BR>
> Doctor: Hmm.  That's an interesting wound.  How did you get<BR>
> that?<BR>
><BR>
> Burglar No. 1:  nnz .. erm .. (in shock)<BR>
><BR>
> Burglar No. 2:  Oh, it was ... an accident, yeah, that's<BR>
> it, an accident.  With a pane of glass.  Yeah, a whole<BR>
> window pane made of glass.  It must have broken and it fell<BR>
> from above while we were ... um ... walking, yeah, we were<BR>
> walking by this building, and there was a wind, and this<BR>
> sharp pane of glass fell straight down and right through my<BR>
> friend here, yeah, that's the ticket, a pane of glass.<BR>
><BR>
> Doctor:  Hmm.  Well.  Let's get this cleaned up.  Nurse, I<BR>
> need about 100m of catgut to sew this closed.  <BR>
<BR>
My friend said that if the robe he was wearing hadn't hampered his<BR>
movements so much, they'd never have made it out the door. <BR>
<BR>
So months later a neighbor let him know that the wounded guy had been<BR>
living on the other side of the block. There were mentions of *lots* of<BR>
blood soaked towels...<BR>
<BR>
I kind wonder if he was bright enough to go to the ER before he got a<BR>
nasty infection or some such. <BR>
<BR>
My friend mostly griped about them getting away, and about having to<BR>
repolish the blade, because it'd gotten blood on it. <BR>
<BR>
I can easily see him as a PC. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2685<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2686</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 29 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2686<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Calling all TML gun experts<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
Protective value of tissues<BR>
Slavery?<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
Re: Metric prefices<BR>
Re: Drug Drug (was: risk perception)<BR>
Re: ancient water-cooled MGs<BR>
NZ firearms laws (long)<BR>
Re: Stopping power<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: customized weaponry, cops, and robber gangs<BR>
RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:06:11 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Calling all TML gun experts<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 1:09, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> OK all,<BR>
<BR>
> I am stumped.  I am looking to identify an unusual SMG I saw at the ATF<BR>
> reference collection.  I believe it to be French, as it shared some<BR>
> similarity to the MAT 49.<BR>
<BR>
Is variant of the MAS Model 38 or possible Model 35. I've usually seen <BR>
them with full wood stocks, but its definitely a M35 or M38<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:14:45 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch wrote:<BR>
> Whenever there was an IRA bombing campaign was on we used to<BR>
> run a sweepstake at work. We cut a photocopy of the central<BR>
> London Map into squares, you bought your square and if the next<BR>
> bomb went off in that square you won the pot.<BR>
<BR>
Rats!  I wish I'd thought of that one, it would  have  gone  down<BR>
great in my office.  Now I've missed the chance.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:48:26 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Protective value of tissues<BR>
<BR>
Well, tissues are just wood that is working it's way through a couple of<BR>
lifestyle issues, so I'd say it should have AV of lemme see ... 0.008 tons<BR>
for 1 cm thick (AV 0.39) by 1m square ... so lets ignore the thickness ...<BR>
to get AV1 we need about 2.5 times that ... call it 20 kilos per square<BR>
meter of tissue.<BR>
<BR>
Thus, if we want something proof against small arms from X-tek, I'd say ...<BR>
hmmm ... lets call it 0.4 m2 ... and we want AV3 ... so we want 24 kilos of<BR>
tissues.<BR>
<BR>
An wee weeeee weeeee wanna scrunch scrunch scrunchie up it tiiiiiiight.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch. With a little help from Ditzie.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:16:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
Warning: this is posted both to the Traveller List and the the<BR>
Traveller Culture list. Replies probably belong on the latter.<BR>
<BR>
I was doing some reading about Roman society, and noted something that<BR>
I'm wondering what the Imperial reaction to would be.<BR>
<BR>
The head of the family had the power of life and death over his<BR>
children. *Forever*.<BR>
<BR>
That is, if he decided you were a disgrace to the house, and your were<BR>
50 years old, he could still have you killed *legally*. <BR>
<BR>
I'm wondering how this would play on a world in the Imperium (and trust<BR>
me, with that many worlds, *somebody* is bound to try re-creating<BR>
Rome!). <BR>
<BR>
Would they consider it a "local law", or would they decide it amounted<BR>
to some sort of slavery? <BR>
<BR>
I tend towards "local law" myself. Though it'd get *real* interesting<BR>
if the Pater Familias decided that a son (or grandson) needed to be<BR>
killed and they were offworld. Would he have to get them extradited?<BR>
Would the world they were on extradite them?<BR>
<BR>
Also, I know the Imperium is against slavery. But is it allowable to<BR>
*sell* yourself into to "slavery" via a contract? How about one that<BR>
places limits on what you can or can't be made to do? Would that be<BR>
illegal? <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:02:38 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> See there, Tod, that's your perception misleading you again. Official<BR>
> figures for last year made a point of mentioning that the total number<BR>
> of _suspected_ murders in the entire UK in 1998 (1999 figures will not<BR>
> come out till later this year) was less than the number of murders in<BR>
> New York on a _single_ average day!. We could get a LOT more dangerous<BR>
> over here before we even get close to the US.<BR>
<BR>
Most of the East Coast (and California) are poor choices for<BR>
comparison. They *do* restrict guns the way the UK does. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, in most of the rest of the country, you can walk<BR>
down the street with a gun (openly carried, not concealed) and get no<BR>
more than odd looks. A friend and I came back from a gun show with some<BR>
rifles (in "gun socks") on a city bus. <BR>
<BR>
Some years back I recall noticing someone downtown wearing a holtered<BR>
pistol. Not any sort of cop or security guard, just dressed in ordinary<BR>
clothes with a gun on his hip. He got odd looks, and a lot of<BR>
whispering went on. But he was just walking dowqn the street, minding<BR>
his own business.<BR>
<BR>
> OTOH, burglary is fairly common over here - because householders are<BR>
> not allowed to carry guns (we can only use "reasonable force" to<BR>
> protect ourselves) so the robbers don't feel too threatened.<BR>
<BR>
Over here, "reasonable force" tends only to be an issue when you can be<BR>
shown to have known what sort of weapons the burglar was or wasn't<BR>
carrying. <BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: How about a place - what's that waterworld in Regina called,<BR>
> for instance, where the foodrunners operate? At any rate, the law<BR>
> level is high and its Amber Zone, but what if the citizens are allowed<BR>
> guns in the home but not on the streets. Penalty for having a gun out<BR>
> of your home would be, say, summary execution (I think that fits with<BR>
> the place).<BR>
<BR>
Unless they go in for "Catch-22" there would *have* to be provisions<BR>
for transporting guns outside the home (or place of business).<BR>
Otherwise moving gets difficult, and setting up a new "home" would be<BR>
too. <BR>
<BR>
Maybe guns can be transported in some sort of lockbox that records the<BR>
time and position of any openings?<BR>
<BR>
> Thieves would find it a VERY dangerous place to be - but<BR>
> citizens would be happy and safe. Visitors might find it a bit risky<BR>
> though - especially if privacy is valued (and the world _is_<BR>
> overcrowded for the living space available).<BR>
<BR>
Be careful clearing those boxes blocking the alley. You may find that<BR>
they qualify as someone's "home" and thus their shooting you is ok. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:30:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 04:13 AM 6/28/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>This sounds like a question for Ian.  Query, according to FFS2, what is the<BR>
>>armor value of tissue?  How many goats are needed for good cover? (Hey, self<BR>
>>propelled sandbags!).<BR>
>><BR>
>>This, naturally brings up the next obvious question, which I'm betting,<BR>
>>knowing who haunts this list, someone will know.  What is the armor value of<BR>
>>an innocent by-stander?<BR>
><BR>
> ACQ:  It's not directly in there, but since we do use a blowthrough rule,<BR>
> you could easily handwave this.<BR>
><BR>
> For example, the blowthrough for a human-sized body is 3d6.  Weapons doing<BR>
> more than that lose the extra damage due to over-penetration.  So you are<BR>
> using an IB as a shield, the police sniper shoots (rifle doing 5d6) and 3<BR>
> dice get wasted in the IB, you get hit with 2d6 damage.<BR>
><BR>
> How much does the average goat mass?<BR>
<BR>
I think the Giles the Goat (he belongs to some friends) is fairly<BR>
average. I'd guess as much as 50 kilos. He's *much* bigger tha any<BR>
sheep I've ever seen.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:35:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 08:54 PM 6/28/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>What was the GPF (Goat Penetration Factor) of the weapon?<BR>
>><BR>
>>In other words, how many small furry animals will it blow up??????????<BR>
>>Wahahahahahahaha . . . . eh.<BR>
><BR>
> While firing a .50ca; sniper rifle, I managed to hiot a squirrel that was<BR>
> on top of one of the range markers.  Not intentional, but my shot went a<BR>
> little high.<BR>
><BR>
> The phrase "pink mist" doesn't begin to describe the effects...<BR>
<BR>
Lucky for you. I bet you didn't have a hunting license one you. And it<BR>
wouldn't be possible to tell if it was the protected species or the<BR>
game species....<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but before I got my SKS, I was a bit frustrated to discover that<BR>
not only were squirrels the only game animal it's legal to hunt with a<BR>
.22 in this state, but that only one species is legal. And they don't<BR>
describe it all that well!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:32:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>         All my players have military background and two of us have been<BR>
>         involved in weapon system design and testing, so none of us<BR>
>         appear to be suffering from hoplophobia.<BR>
<BR>
What about hoplo*philia*? :-)<BR>
<BR>
> PC 4    15 mm massdriver shotgun, several types of ammunition<BR>
>         (birdshot, buckshot, flechettes, brenneken slugs and HEP<BR>
>         grenades).<BR>
<BR>
"Brenneken slugs"? Que va?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:45:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 26 Jun 00, at 21:18, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> I think the easterners might be shocked by my ammo though. I bought a<BR>
>> *case* of SKS ammo...<BR>
><BR>
> My friend and I each bought a Chinese SKS for plinking. We'd buy a case <BR>
> of ammo each and I'd last us about a weekend (two if we were <BR>
> conservative). After he got a semi-auto AK-47 replica we had to buy <BR>
> more ammo, as we weasted less time reloading.<BR>
<BR>
They *do* make 30 round magazines for the SKS. I own one. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 03:56:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> My mistake that the Terrans did indeed dispatch sleeper ships, although<BR>
> not with the intent of establishing an empire as far as I can tell.<BR>
> The Vilani sleeper ships went to very nearby planets with the intent of <BR>
> creating a local sublight trading empire. The Terran ships were <BR>
> apparently very long range (to the Marches from terra by sublight? Wow)<BR>
> settlement missions with a goal I'm not sure I really understand.<BR>
<BR>
The goal was pretty simple. They were expecting a war with the Vilani.<BR>
They wanted to get a colony or colonies established *beyond* the Vilani<BR>
empire. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:00:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> Weeeellll... The Vilani did have spaceflight for a couple of thousand<BR>
>> years (IIRC, my books are at home...) before developing Jump technology,<BR>
>> whereas the Solomani 'invent' Jump technology after only a century of<BR>
>> Space flight.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I wouldn't exactly call the Vilani 'lumps on a bump' but they are hardly<BR>
>> a culture of innovation.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, I think it's hard to make a sweeping generalization <BR>
> across time like that. Would you call China a "culture of<BR>
> innovation"? In some ways, no, but in other ways they were <BR>
> far ahead of the "west" in the discovery of things like gunpowder<BR>
> and printing.<BR>
><BR>
> (Ok, so they kind of just sat on gunpowder and didn't really capitalize <BR>
> on it, but never the less, they got it first).<BR>
<BR>
Check into Chinese history. They got a *lot* of things first. And<BR>
*deliberately* suppressed many of them to maintain the statuds quo.<BR>
<BR>
Best example is fleet of *huge* (for the time) ocean going ships.<BR>
They'd reached Africa and started working their way down the east<BR>
coast. They may reached America and gotten as far as Oregon or<BR>
California. <BR>
<BR>
This was in the 1300s. If they'd kept going *they* would have reached<BR>
Europe in much the same way that the Portuguese reached India and China<BR>
200 years later. And with equally devastating results for the<BR>
"contacted" cultures. <BR>
<BR>
But the bureaucracies convinced the Emperor that China didn't need to<BR>
waste time on this or contact "barbarians". So the fleet was destroyed.<BR>
<BR>
And a few hundred years later China was *forced* to deal with the<BR>
barbarians. <BR>
<BR>
As I write this, I note that it's uncomfortably close to what the US<BR>
did after we landed on the moon. Right down to political manuevering<BR>
with charges of wasted money, and more urgent problems at home. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:15:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Metric prefices<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Thom Jones-Low wrote:<BR>
>> [Leonard Erickson wrote:]<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> And a handy list of prefixes:<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> 1e24   Y   yotto<BR>
>>> 1e21   Z   zetta<BR>
<snip><BR>
>>> 1e-21  z   zepto<BR>
>>> 1e-24  y   yocto<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Note that prefixes are *never* combined. So it's 1 Mg, not 1 kkg.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>         Are Zetta-/Yotto- really official, real prefixes? I've seen Exa-<BR>
>> before, but never anything beyond that.<BR>
><BR>
> Yup, they're official.<BR>
><BR>
> According to _The Hacker's Dictionary_, zetta-/zepto- and yotta-/yocto <BR>
> were adopted in 1990 by the "19th Conference Generale des Poids et <BR>
> Mesures" - the conference that defines the SI/metric system. _THD_ is <BR>
> silent on the derivation of those prefixes, but mentions that femto- <BR>
> and atto- are from Danish rather than Greek.<BR>
><BR>
> In 1993, someone named Morgan Burke proposed the following additions:<BR>
> groucho-   1e-30<BR>
> harpo-     1e-27<BR>
> harpi-     1e+27<BR>
> grouchi-   1e+30<BR>
><BR>
> ..leaving zeppo-, gummo-, and chico- available for future expansion.<BR>
<BR>
Zeppo is out. Too likely to be confused with Zetto/zepto. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> Also, I'd just like to point out that the prefix for micro is the <BR>
> greek letter mu, lowercase, which looks like a lowercase u with a long <BR>
> straight descender from the left-hand side (and u is occasionally used <BR>
> as an "I-only-have-US-ASCII-on-my-machine" copout for it). In my machine's <BR>
> e-mail configuration, Leonard's post put an "ae" digraph where I'm sure <BR>
> he intended a "mu". Do not be fooled! :)<BR>
<BR>
You are just using the wrong character set. Try codepage 437. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:39:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Drug Drug (was: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> There's been talk about Ecstasy here and in the US media recently, and I <BR>
> have a question that might bear, in a roundabout way, on recreational drugs <BR>
> of the future.<BR>
><BR>
> A host of legal anti-depressants (Prozac, et al) work by putting more of <BR>
> that magic, poorly-understood brain chemical, serotonin, into play.  MDMA <BR>
> is just a bit more aggressive about it, possibly causing damage to the <BR>
> production sites in the process.  (TANSTAAFL, remember?)<BR>
><BR>
> What I'm wondering is how long it's going to be until someone "bottles" <BR>
> serotonin, in raw form, and sells THAT as a drug.  No messing with the <BR>
> user's natural supply, just throw more on the fire.  Can the Medico tell us <BR>
> if it's a chemical that can survive ingestion, or would need to be injected?<BR>
<BR>
It's not only unlikely to survive ingestion, but injecting it won't do<BR>
much good either. The whole reason we have to use all these complicated<BR>
chemicals is because the brain is isolated from the bloodstream by a<BR>
sort of "filter" (the so-called "blood/brain barrier").<BR>
<BR>
They get turned into *something* that can slip thru the barrier and<BR>
then, once thru, affect serotonin metabolism. <BR>
<BR>
To use pure serotonin, you'd have to get it *past* the barrier. And<BR>
injecting into the brain is not only difficult, but "minor" infections<BR>
can be quickly fatal. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:33:53 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: ancient water-cooled MGs<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 0:39, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Oh, I almost forgot the M-72 LAWS, AT-4 and an honest to goodness Stinger<BR>
> (all photographed).  Now the Stinger, I'm really curious about.  How would<BR>
> a civilian get there hand on one?  It's not like they leave them laying<BR>
> around.  Ad what would you do with one?<BR>
<BR>
Well the US sent quite a few to Afganistan, and the route used to get <BR>
them there had to deniable, so you can imagine the attrition rate there <BR>
must have been om something as shiny as a new stinger missile.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:33:53 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: NZ firearms laws (long)<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 0:01, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert,<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm curious about the gun laws in NZ.  After hearing so much about the<BR>
> restrictions in the UK and Oz, I surprised to hear from such a seeming gun<BR>
> devotee from 'down there'.<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW, my father toured NZ fore several months.  He was mostly (forgive my<BR>
> spelling, I have no clue) in Fuquatawny.  I send him down a copy of the<BR>
> Shotgun News, a US publication for buying , selling and trading guns and<BR>
> accessories, like a giant 'want ads'.  He said it made the rounds with his<BR>
> NZ friends who thought it was the coolest.  I also remember sending him<BR>
> several Leatherman tools, for which there was a premium.<BR>
<BR>
The correct spelling is "Whakatane", I think. The "Wh" should be <BR>
pronounced as a combination of a soft "w" and a soft "ph" (though it's <BR>
common to use a straight "f" sound there days), making it "Fa - ka - <BR>
tan - e", with all vowels being long. However very few non-Moari, <BR>
including myself, pronounce Moari words correctly, so it's not a big <BR>
deal (unless you're speaking to a Moari who's sensitive about these <BR>
things).<BR>
<BR>
Right, from memory (some events may be in slightly the wrong order):<BR>
<BR>
New Zealand's gun laws used to be very lax - before about 1920 there <BR>
basically weren't any. About that time the government decided that it <BR>
would be a good idea to license gun-owners, I think so that they'd know <BR>
who to call up in the event of a war. Unless you were a known criminal <BR>
you got your license automatically, as a matter of right.<BR>
<BR>
Shortly before WWII it was decided that you had to be a "fit and proper <BR>
person" in order to get a license. This meant that the local bobby <BR>
looked you up and down and if you weren't a trouble-maker he made out a <BR>
license.<BR>
<BR>
Some time after WWII handguns were put under a special class of <BR>
license, as was permission to be a firearms dealer.<BR>
<BR>
In the mid 60s (it may have at the same time as above) the right of <BR>
dairy owners (a dairy is the small corner store where you buy milk, <BR>
bread, newspapers, etc) to get a license to have a pistol under the <BR>
counter for defence was removed. Also somewhere along the line the <BR>
firearms themselves were also registered, and you had to get a "permit <BR>
to procure" before you could buy a firearm. Basically this wasn't a big <BR>
deal, as it happened automatically, but it was a hastle - go to the <BR>
store and look the guns over, choose what you wanted. Go to the cop <BR>
shop and get a permit _for that specific gun_. Go back to the store and <BR>
buy the gun. Take the permit and receipt back to the cops (who got to <BR>
keep all copies of the permit, BTW - spot the interesting opportunites <BR>
this creates?).<BR>
<BR>
In 1981 it was decided to get rid of the old "register the gun" system <BR>
as it had too many error in the records to be useful and cost a fortune <BR>
to run. Instead a lifetime license was introduced. You paid across a <BR>
fee (NZ$27.50, inc GST in 1985, when I got mine) and sat a firearms <BR>
safety test. If you past you got your license, if not, you got to try <BR>
again in about 6 months, on paying the fee again. The police also had <BR>
to OK you as a "fit and proper person", which meant they checked your <BR>
records and interviewed you to make sure you weren't a crim or a nut-<BR>
bar.<BR>
<BR>
However there were a vast number of license holder from the old system <BR>
and rather than test them all the police simply issued them with the <BR>
new licenses. This wasn't very bright, as the old records were a mess. <BR>
One of my friend's father wrote in and said that he'd lost his old <BR>
paperwork, but could they please send him his new license anyway, and <BR>
as he was a farmer (and therefore obviously had a gun, and thus <BR>
license) they sent him one.<BR>
<BR>
In 1991 (IIRC) a man named David Grey, a loner and not very stable, <BR>
went over the edge in the little town of Aramoana (sp?). He killed 13 <BR>
people using a Norinco 5.56NATO semi-auto AK-47 look alike, a semi-auto <BR>
.22LR rifle and a .38 revolver he got off the local policeman who had <BR>
tried to talk to him when things first started. In the end an SAS anti-<BR>
terrorist squad took him out, after a several day stand-off with the <BR>
Armed Defenders Squad (the NZ police's very rough equivalent to a SWAT <BR>
Team), who were to scared to try and take him with BRUNO .223 Remington <BR>
varmint rifles equipped with scopes. It turned out that David's <BR>
eyesight was so bad that even with glasses he'd have been very lucky to <BR>
have seen, let alone hit anyone outside 30m away. It also came to light <BR>
that he was one of those who'd simply been given a new license in the <BR>
change-over and wouldn't have passed muster under the new system if the <BR>
cops had done their jobs properly and interviewed everyone.<BR>
<BR>
The upshot of all this was that we now have a new license system, which <BR>
involves a much larger fee, re-licensing every 10 years (I think, it <BR>
may be every 5), and a new category of firearm - the MSSA, which <BR>
requires a special endorement on your license to own, like pistols do. <BR>
These endorsements cost even more than an ordinary license, and you <BR>
have to belong to a club, etc, etc. "MSSA" stands for "Military Style <BR>
Semi-Automatic", and is defined as any semi-automatic firearm with one <BR>
or more of these features:<BR>
<BR>
A free-standing pistol-grip,<BR>
<BR>
A bayonet lug,<BR>
<BR>
A flash suppressor,<BR>
<BR>
A magazine holding more than 7 rounds if centrefire, or 10 if rimfire.<BR>
<BR>
They didn't think much of my argument about my M1 Garand - that it <BR>
didn't have a magazine, and that even if it did, the magazine itself <BR>
only held 7 rounds, the 8th being in the chamber. Besides as it was in <BR>
really good condition, and as far as I could tell was pre-WWII, I sold <BR>
it rather than hack the bayonet lug off.<BR>
<BR>
There are now moves afoot to ban MSSAs outright, like Australia did <BR>
after the Port Arthur killings. And they want to bring back individual <BR>
weapon registration, mandatory gunsafes, etc. All this was in a report <BR>
that even admitted that this would have little to no impact on any <BR>
crime statistics.<BR>
<BR>
BTW the compliance rate with the new licenses started out at rather <BR>
less than 100% when they called the "As" and "Bs" in for re-licensing, <BR>
and has dropped to the point where the police won't release the stats. <BR>
Also very, very few MSSAs have been registered (another thing you had <BR>
to do with them), and the number estimated to be in the country (which <BR>
was given at "well over 30,000" in about 1992-3) kept being revised <BR>
downwards, rather than admit just how high the non-compliance rate was.<BR>
<BR>
If I sound bitter, it's because I am. The new laws have stopped <BR>
precisely no shootings were introduced in a knee-jerk reaction to <BR>
something that happened because of poor proceedures and not a failing <BR>
in the then-current laws. Also because you had to show a reason to own <BR>
a MSSA (supposedly you didn't have too, but those without a "good <BR>
reason" tended not to get the endorsement) I had to sell two of my <BR>
rifles or butcher them, so I sold them and got under half their pre-law <BR>
value, because nobody was buying (surprise, surprise).<BR>
<BR>
Though I don't know what the stats are now, New Zealand still has a lot <BR>
of guns per capita, and in the early 1990s we had the second or third <BR>
highest guin-ownership rate in the world, barring places like <BR>
Switzland. Desipte this we seem to be going the way of the UK, Canada <BR>
and Australia :(<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:33:53 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Stopping power<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 4:41, Laning wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  Personally, I'm a .45 booster, not 9mm.  Shotguns are usually even more<BR>
> preferable.  When it comes to battlefield rifles, well I feel the choices<BR>
> are less clearcut, but would tend to favor an assault rifle in 7.62 NATO<BR>
> over one in 5.56 US or 5.56 NATO.  IMTU, the major mod to weapons is that<BR>
> gauss rifles tend to penetrate armor extremely well but not do as much<BR>
> damage to unarmored personnel as an ACR does.  If the gauss round has to<BR>
> penetrate significant armor first, and has energy left, it's all the worse<BR>
> for the target then.  To me, a gauss round hitting an unarmored person is<BR>
> like having a hot needle drill right them at speeds nearly good enough for<BR>
> spaceship battles.  Lotsa energy, but most of it stays with the bullet.<BR>
> The bullet will also be so hot that there will be some cauterization of<BR>
> the wound.  Those are my personal feelings on the topic.  As we've seen,<BR>
> YMMV, and many intelligent people who very learned about these things have<BR>
> very passionate and very different feelings on the topic.<BR>
<BR>
I'm a 9mm fan, mainly because they can penetrate a bit better (besides <BR>
I've actually fired one, whereas I haven't got my grubby hands on a <BR>
.45). However when it comes down to it, why stop at a piddly .45, when <BR>
you can have a .357 magnum?<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav:  Fanatics, (provided by the Ine Givar?) with combat drugs and<BR>
> designer drugs tailored to anasthetize them and generate huge amounts of<BR>
> adrenaline, testosterone, and otherwise warp their mood state into extreme<BR>
> aggressiveness, would make formidable foes in guerilla raids on Imperium<BR>
> forces.  What would be the weapon of choice for sentries on duty in zones<BR>
> where attacks occur?  Perhaps firing a tranq round with a chemical<BR>
> cocktail capable of defeating the attacker's own chemical cocktail? <BR>
> Sounds too difficult.  A tranq round with a really nasty nerve agent?  A<BR>
> thud gun?<BR>
<BR>
An LSW with a nice long belt :)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:33:53 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 1:40, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In general, I agree with you, but given the heavy foliage in western<BR>
> Oregon, I was thinking of trying the .458 with 45-70 class handloads and<BR>
> 400 gn cast bullets.<BR>
<BR>
Ah, now that's OK. Bullets that make hole that big don't really need to <BR>
expand :)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:33:53 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: customized weaponry, cops, and robber gangs<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 2:43, Laning wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  Thanks Rod, that's the one!  .35 Remington.  Very good characteristics<BR>
>  for<BR>
> the job.  My mistake about .30 cal.  And *very* good point you make about<BR>
> Call of Cthulu, too.  Weren't BARs around also by the time of Call of<BR>
> Cthulu?<BR>
<BR>
Yep, and they were a lot more commonly used by gangsters than "Tommy <BR>
Guns" were. Why use a crappy SMG when for much less money you can <BR>
legally buy a military surplus LSW? One that fires .30-06 no less.<BR>
<BR>
>  Oh, and yes, ambush is the word for it.  The FBI hireling, former<BR>
> legendary Texas Ranger, had an informant set up Bonnie & Clyde to show at<BR>
> his chosen ambush spot, lay waiting in the bushes with I think three other<BR>
> people (or was it two?), and when B&C arrived, fired off hundreds of<BR>
> rounds with no pretense of arresting or capturing anyone.  Was it Melvin<BR>
> Purvis who hired the guy, or was it J. Edgar Himself?  I think it was<BR>
> Purvis. Anyway, the FBI knew full well they were paying somebody to kill<BR>
> B&C, not bringing in a consultant to help capture them and bring them to<BR>
> trial.  If Johnnie Cochran were around back then, B&C's next of kin would<BR>
> have brought a huge wrongful death suit against the FBI and won. :-><BR>
<BR>
It's always facinated me how law enforcement in the US of old was <BR>
little different from outlawry.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:33:53 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 18:11, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Robert Houghton wrote :<BR>
> > Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > Good stuff, that. It'll go through 1/4" mild steel plate at 15 yards,<BR>
> > > and right through a goat long-ways at 50 yards.<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > <BR>
> > thats a 7.7 on the Ick factor scale for that mental image...<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Other Rob<BR>
> <BR>
> I get the feeling you wouldn't like Peter Jackson's "Bad Taste"<BR>
<BR>
Lovely movie, that.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2686<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 29 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2687<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: customized weaponry, cops, and robber gangs OT: <BR>
Re: customized weaponry, cops, and robber gangs OT: <BR>
Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
Re : Stopping Power<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: MOS<BR>
RE: Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
Re : The TML 2000 Landgrab<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
Re: Protective value of tissues<BR>
Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
Point-blank<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:33:53 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 23:43, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> When you own a dog, you have a loyal companion for life.  When you have a<BR>
> cat, you have a room mate who has his own ideas about things and tolerate<BR>
> you as long as you provide food.  Cats are not domesticated.<BR>
<BR>
I heartily agree. My parents (mother, really) had (have) lots of cats, <BR>
and they're not domestic animals. However they are domesticating <BR>
animals  - if you let them they'll take you over.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:39:03 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 3:30, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I think the Giles the Goat (he belongs to some friends) is fairly<BR>
> average. I'd guess as much as 50 kilos. He's *much* bigger tha any<BR>
> sheep I've ever seen.<BR>
<BR>
There are quite a number of different types of goat. Some domestic <BR>
goats get quite big, though the ones I've seen all tend to fairly tall <BR>
for their weight.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:39:03 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 3:45, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On 26 Jun 00, at 21:18, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> I think the easterners might be shocked by my ammo though. I bought a<BR>
> >> *case* of SKS ammo...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > My friend and I each bought a Chinese SKS for plinking. We'd buy a case<BR>
> > of ammo each and I'd last us about a weekend (two if we were<BR>
> > conservative). After he got a semi-auto AK-47 replica we had to buy more<BR>
> > ammo, as we weasted less time reloading.<BR>
> <BR>
> They *do* make 30 round magazines for the SKS. I own one. <BR>
<BR>
Yep, I know, but it seemded more fun to get the AK to go with it :)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:45:01 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: customized weaponry, cops, and robber gangs OT: <BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> It's always facinated me how law enforcement in the US of old was <BR>
> little different from outlawry.<BR>
<BR>
I believe that the words 'of old' in your sentence above<BR>
are unneeded....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:48:08 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: customized weaponry, cops, and robber gangs OT: <BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 4:45, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
> > It's always facinated me how law enforcement in the US of old was <BR>
> > little different from outlawry.<BR>
> <BR>
> I believe that the words 'of old' in your sentence above<BR>
> are unneeded....<BR>
<BR>
I was attempting to be polite.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:16:18 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
Kelly St. Clair wrote :-<BR>
> A host of legal anti-depressants (Prozac, et al) work by putting more of <BR>
> that magic, poorly-understood brain chemical, serotonin, into play.  MDMA <BR>
> is just a bit more aggressive about it, possibly causing damage to the <BR>
> production sites in the process.  (TANSTAAFL, remember?)<BR>
<BR>
There are three classes of antidepressants currently in use :-<BR>
i. tricyclics - believed to inhibit noradrenaline/norepinephrine<BR>
reuptake, as well as modulate the release of other transmitters (e.g.<BR>
acetylcholine) ;<BR>
ii. selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (which act as their name<BR>
suggests, leading to a longer time for serotonin to do its work).<BR>
Examples include fluoxetine (Prozac) and paroxetine.<BR>
iii. combination noradrenaline/serotonin reuptake inhibitors e.g.<BR>
venlafaxine (Efexor)<BR>
<BR>
MDMA (all amphetamines, for that matter) mimic catecholamine<BR>
neurotransmitters (primarily noradrenaline). They also block reuptake,<BR>
which leads to prolongation of effect. <BR>
<BR>
MDMA has achieved some notoriety as a serotonin agonist, but the other<BR>
amphetamines probably have similar effects.<BR>
<BR>
It is very likely that permanent damage to serotonin producing neurones<BR>
occurs with prolonged exposure to MDMA.<BR>
<BR>
> What I'm wondering is how long it's going to be until someone "bottles" <BR>
> serotonin, in raw form, and sells THAT as a drug.  No messing with the <BR>
> user's natural supply, just throw more on the fire.  Can the Medico tell us <BR>
> if it's a chemical that can survive ingestion, or would need to be injected?<BR>
<BR>
Serotonin is 5-hydroxytryptamine. It is produced from the amino acid<BR>
tryptophan and is found in high concentrations in 'enterochromaffin'<BR>
cells, located in the gut and central nervous system. Serotonin is also<BR>
abundant in platelets.<BR>
<BR>
The oral bioavailability is effectively zero due to its destruction in<BR>
the stomach. (Bioavailability is defined as the proportion of a dose<BR>
which reaches the circulation).<BR>
<BR>
Direct intravenous injection (subcutaneous or intramuscular would lead<BR>
to destruction of the compound before it had a chance to go anywhere)<BR>
leads to alterations in blood pressure (usually up, sometimes down),<BR>
abdominal pain (due to increased gut motility) and commonly nausea and<BR>
vomitting. <BR>
<BR>
If serotonin is the 'magic bullet' (unlikely), then what is required is<BR>
a modified form of the compound which can survive peripheral destruction<BR>
and cross the blood-brain barrier, similar to the dopamine preparations<BR>
used in the treatment of Parkinson's. The prodrug is then metabolised in<BR>
the brain to produce the active compound.<BR>
<BR>
Chemicals are messy, and we really don't know enough about<BR>
neurochemistry to do the job without risking unpleasant side-effects.<BR>
This is true of all the psychoactives and anaesthetics in<BR>
clinical/veterinary/recreational use.<BR>
<BR>
The ideal recreational drug should be ingestible orally or by<BR>
inhalation, produce the desired frame of mind without untoward effects<BR>
on mental state, the regulation of visceral function, coagulation, or<BR>
cell division, not interact with other substances which might be used at<BR>
the same time, lack carcino- or mutagenicity, and have a predictable<BR>
duration of action.<BR>
<BR>
Wireheading is a more certain way of getting your kicks - you regard the<BR>
brain as a collection of 'black boxes' and stimulate a region you know<BR>
is going to work, in everyone. <BR>
<BR>
You could wire other centres too ; the regions of the hypothalamus<BR>
dealing with temperature regulation, appetite, sex drive ; the pain<BR>
suppression centres in the periaqueductal gray matter and thalamus...<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav : Advanced medical techniques offer some scary possibilities to<BR>
repressive societies.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
'There are no dangerous drugs, just unskilled users.'<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:16:25 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Stopping Power<BR>
<BR>
Laning wrote :-<BR>
> ObTrav:  Fanatics, (provided by the Ine Givar?) with combat drugs and<BR>
> designer drugs tailored to anasthetize them and generate huge amounts of<BR>
> adrenaline, testosterone, and otherwise warp their mood state into extreme<BR>
> aggressiveness, would make formidable foes in guerilla raids on Imperium<BR>
> forces.<BR>
<BR>
Psychotics aren't particularly effective combatants, though they could<BR>
be useful in short-lived terror actions such as you suggest in your<BR>
post.<BR>
     As has been noted in recent traffic (the unarmed combat<BR>
discussions), a level head (or a good approximation thereof) is required<BR>
in combat and other stress situations.<BR>
<BR>
Sentry weapons :-<BR>
i. Firearms/explosives designed to turn targets into chunky salsa.<BR>
'Metal Storm' - based devices (fixed or man-portable), claymore<BR>
munitions, remote controlled scale model off-road racers (robot spiders<BR>
or bats/birds?) packed with plastique...  Watch that danger space!<BR>
ii. Electroshock devices to cause muscle paralysis or cardiac standstill<BR>
(e.g. taser weapons, UV laser 'pilot tube' electroshock weapons).<BR>
iii. Chemical weapons need to have high potency and rapid onset. Stuff<BR>
in darts should be OK, unless the target has heavy body armour.<BR>
     'Immobilon' (etorphine) and ketamine is a common veterinary tranq<BR>
recipe.<BR>
Now we just need a design for a repeating middling large (0.3 inch) dart<BR>
gun, and we can drop targets up to elephant size with ease. If we're not<BR>
interested in capturing the target alive, the dose can be increased, or<BR>
we could use cyanide or fluoride salts.<BR>
     Gaseous agents have problems with dispersion and clean-up<BR>
afterwards. Organophosphates (VX, Soman, DIFP, etc.) will penetrate<BR>
anything less than a dedicated hazard suit. Given Traveller TLs, vacc<BR>
suits/combat environment suits/combat armour/battle dress are going to<BR>
be impermeable.<BR>
iv. Bizarre guard animals.<BR>
Vorpal bunnies. Trained attack Denebian tree-oxen...<BR>
<BR>
Bed time!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:35:29 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
I think Brennekin slugs are flat-tipped bullets with wavy edges..They make a<BR>
hell of a nasty entry hole and an even worse exit..:)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 7:32 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> >         All my players have military background and two of us have been<BR>
> >         involved in weapon system design and testing, so none of us<BR>
> >         appear to be suffering from hoplophobia.<BR>
><BR>
> What about hoplo*philia*? :-)<BR>
><BR>
> > PC 4    15 mm massdriver shotgun, several types of ammunition<BR>
> >         (birdshot, buckshot, flechettes, brenneken slugs and HEP<BR>
> >         grenades).<BR>
><BR>
> "Brenneken slugs"? Que va?<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:03:13 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: MOS<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>	Unless I'm missing something, that would be the M113 armored personnel<BR>
>carrier.  A variant had the Vulcan miniguns (and a *lot* of ammo) mounted<BR>
>on the top deck and was designated (IIRC) the M125. <BR>
<BR>
  M163's, IIRC; M125 is an M113 with the rear modified to operate 81mm mortars?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:04:14 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
> The ideal recreational drug should be ingestible orally or by<BR>
> inhalation, produce the desired frame of mind without untoward<BR>
> effects on mental state, the regulation of visceral function,<BR>
> coagulation, or cell division, not interact with other substances<BR>
> which might be used at the same time, lack carcino- or mutagenicity,<BR>
> and have a predictable duration of action.<BR>
<BR>
Depends who its ideal for.  For the crim^H^H^H^Hbusiness man  the<BR>
ideal reactractional drug is one that's highly addictive and  has<BR>
some negative side effect.  The latter leads the  politicians  to<BR>
ban it resulting in the price sky-rocketing.  Then  the  business<BR>
man gets his flunky^H^H^H^H^H^Hassociates to distribute it on the<BR>
streets ... money in the bank!<BR>
<BR>
(Even alcohol will do if you can convince local poiticians to ban<BR>
it.)<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Scenario - After landing on a new planet (*not* high  law<BR>
level) the PCs get in trouble in a local 'bar' when they  request<BR>
a beer not realising  that  all  alcoholic  drinks  are  illegal.<BR>
Coccaine, on the other hand ...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:44:56 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, John Groth wrote:<BR>
> ObTrav:  IMHO, Kipling is _always_ worthwhile, so no ObTrav is strictly<BR>
> necessary.  However, there is always the adventure hook of the PCs being<BR>
> hired for (or, in active duty campaigns, sent on) a Cadre ticket to a<BR>
> lower-tech planet....<BR>
<BR>
But would Freemasonry be involved?<BR>
<BR>
   <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:48:25 EDT<BR>
From: CardSharks@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/29/00 7:07:20 AM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< <BR>
 Also, I know the Imperium is against slavery. But is it allowable to<BR>
 *sell* yourself into to "slavery" via a contract? How about one that<BR>
 places limits on what you can or can't be made to do? Would that be<BR>
 illegal? <BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
There's always wage slavery. Many of us do it... committing ourselves to the <BR>
same job day in and day out, with some idea that the future will be better <BR>
and we can leave, but we never do. Then the employer lets you go (gives you <BR>
your freedom) when you can' t work; in some ways that's even worse than <BR>
"slavery;" the slave owner tended to keep the old slaves around in their old <BR>
age.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:03:18 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
Hey robert, I'm taking "Paxil", what sort of anti-depressant is that?<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
To: "TML" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 9:16 AM<BR>
Subject: Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Kelly St. Clair wrote :-<BR>
> > A host of legal anti-depressants (Prozac, et al) work by putting more of<BR>
> > that magic, poorly-understood brain chemical, serotonin, into play.<BR>
MDMA<BR>
> > is just a bit more aggressive about it, possibly causing damage to the<BR>
> > production sites in the process.  (TANSTAAFL, remember?)<BR>
><BR>
> There are three classes of antidepressants currently in use :-<BR>
> i. tricyclics - believed to inhibit noradrenaline/norepinephrine<BR>
> reuptake, as well as modulate the release of other transmitters (e.g.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:07:13 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: Re : The TML 2000 Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
I now claim Sting/Sword Worlds.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:12:22 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 2:52 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> <BR>
>> That's a tough one, as there are several guns that fit that description.<BR>
>> The time between the turn of the century and WWII saw quite a few<BR>
>> pistol-carbines.  Starting from the Borchart, and including the Astras,<BR>
>> Lugers, Mauser C-96 variants (Broomhandles), Bergmann 'Mars', etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> Like I said, id was either a luger or a mauser. Does having an extended<BR>
> (but not drum) magazine help? The phrase "snail magazine" pops into my<BR>
> head.<BR>
<BR>
Its' a Luger.  Snail mag is a dead give away.<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, there are rumors of a 105 somewhee in the West hills. :-)<BR>
<BR>
And there's the live Naval gun in some industrial par over in Vancouver.<BR>
Everyone just assumes it was 'demilled'. Good view of the city, too.  You<BR>
could take out out anythying.<BR>
<BR>
Here In Beaverton, there's a nice little pack howitzer in one of the parks<BR>
that looks like it could be returned to service with a lot of work.  I would<BR>
look so cool towed behind my pickup...<BR>
> <BR>
>> ObTrav;  Just because the PC's are trapped on a high law level world and in<BR>
>> need of hardware doesn't mean they're out of luck.<BR>
> <BR>
>> "Hey, that's a Langthorn M86 Phased plasma rifle!  ma'am, did your Elmer<BR>
>> bring anything else home from the war?"<BR>
>> <BR>
>> "Just old Betsy.  She's out in the barn."<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Much glance exchanging by the PCs before they all scurry from their places<BR>
>> to check out 'Betsy'.<BR>
> <BR>
> "Unit BTSE of the Line, ready for duty!"<BR>
> <BR>
> :-)<BR>
<BR>
Laumer's most enduring characters.  I see the SJGames is releasing a role<BR>
playing version of Bolo.  I'd be willing to bet that there is more than one<BR>
ref on the list who's had a CSU show up in at least one game.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:14:26 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Protective value of tissues<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:48:26 +1000<BR>
>From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
>Subject: Protective value of tissues<BR>
<BR>
>Well, tissues are just wood that is working it's way through a couple of<BR>
>lifestyle issues, so I'd say it should have AV of lemme see ... 0.008<BR>
tons<BR>
>for 1 cm thick (AV 0.39) by 1m square ... so lets ignore the thickness<BR>
...<BR>
>to get AV1 we need about 2.5 times that ... call it 20 kilos per square<BR>
>meter of tissue.<BR>
<BR>
Is this one or two ply?<BR>
<BR>
>Thus, if we want something proof against small arms from X-tek, I'd say<BR>
...<BR>
>hmmm ... lets call it 0.4 m2 ... and we want AV3 ... so we want 24 kilos<BR>
of<BR>
>tissues.<BR>
<BR>
This is nothing to sneeze at.<BR>
<BR>
>An wee weeeee weeeee wanna scrunch scrunch scrunchie up it tiiiiiiight.<BR>
<BR>
>Ian Whitchurch. With a little help from Ditzie.<BR>
<BR>
Is this what they ment in Hitchhikers Guide by the Comming of the Great<BR>
White Hanky?<BR>
<BR>
\  // Commander X<BR>
 \//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
T E K  Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //\  http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm<BR>
//  \ 0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:25:57 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rats (and other beasties)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 3:27 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Obtrav: a similar park, or perhaps "sacred shrine" has been *stolen*.<BR>
> The PCs are hired to recover it. Or maybe they were hired to steal it.<BR>
> <BR>
> Either way, transporting it without killing the plants (or infesting<BR>
> the ship with any insects or other creatures that live in it) is going<BR>
> to call for skills most parties don't have. <eg><BR>
<BR>
Oh, that's a keeper.  Expect this to show up in my game notes soon.  I like<BR>
the image of the faithful going to the site to see a big hole in the ground.<BR>
I remember how perturbed a neighbor was when someone stole his Japanese<BR>
Maple.<BR>
<BR>
"Hey guys, I think this little tree here is dying"<BR>
<BR>
Now make that the 'sacred tree of life', which requires the Orlo worm in<BR>
it's root structure in order to survive and is only found in the 'forbidden<BR>
monastery'.  Not only that, but the 'tree of life' has evolved as an<BR>
empathic life form that requires the attention of some sophont.<BR>
<BR>
"Can you describe the party that stole you grav-car"?<BR>
"Well...they were a pretty average group. The little guy had this tiny pet<BR>
tree"<BR>
"Pet tree!?"<BR>
"Well, he kept talking to it, petting it.  You know, now that I think about,<BR>
the tree didn't seem too happy"<BR>
<BR>
The universe is a very strange place.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:22:33 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]<BR>
<BR>
>  I Think the stat I heard was 'per capita', and on <BR>
> reflection, and looking a<BR>
> some of the email sent to me by a friend, it appears that it <BR>
> is the rate at<BR>
> which violent crime is rising in the US that appears to have <BR>
> peaked, while<BR>
> it is rising in the UK.  I don't want to put my foot in my <BR>
> mouth again until<BR>
> I have the exact figure AND source in front of me.<BR>
<BR>
From that NRA-worshipping, fact-twisting, gun-rights-supporting groups <BR>
of right-wing reactionaries, CBS News:<BR>
<BR>
http://cbsnews.cbs.com/now/story/0,1597,210074-412,00.shtml<BR>
<BR>
"The British Broadcasting Corporation reports that the Home Office's yet-to-be-released figures are expected to show a 19 percent increase in violent crime nationwide from March 1999-March 2000, with robberies in London jumping 38 percent."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:42:05 +0200<BR>
From: "Pedro Lopez" <lopez@mailme.dk><BR>
Subject: Point-blank<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
Standing five meters away from my enemy, shooting at him three =<BR>
times...and hit nothing. That happens often when I play TNE.=20<BR>
<BR>
According to the rules in TNE, there is no difference when you shoot at =<BR>
a target thats 2 or 30 meters away from you as long its within close =<BR>
range.<BR>
<BR>
Does anybody have an idea to a point blank-rule, that makes it easier to =<BR>
hit your target, when its right in front of you? I suggest having your =<BR>
strength or agility defining the point blank-range where the difficulty =<BR>
level is better than usual.=20<BR>
<BR>
For example: Our guy with Strength 8 has a point blank-range of 8 =<BR>
meters. He shoots a Vargr whos barking at him 5 meters away. Its a quick =<BR>
shot and its normally a difficult roll within close range, but using the =<BR>
point blank-rule its only an average roll...<BR>
<BR>
...and of course our guy hits his target.<BR>
<BR>
Any suggestions for point blank rules?<BR>
<BR>
Pedro Lopez<BR>
<BR>
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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =<BR>
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<BR>
<DIV>Standing five meters away from my =<BR>
enemy, shooting=20<BR>
at him three times...and hit nothing. That happens often when I play =<BR>
TNE.=20<BR>
</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>According to the rules in TNE, there is =<BR>
no=20<BR>
difference when you shoot at a target thats 2 or 30 meters away from you =<BR>
as long=20<BR>
its within close range.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Does =<BR>
anybody have an idea=20<BR>
to a point blank-rule, that makes it easier to hit your target, when its =<BR>
right=20<BR>
in front of you? I suggest having your strength or agility =<BR>
defining&nbsp;the=20<BR>
point blank-range where the difficulty level is better than usual.=20<BR>
</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>For example: Our guy with Strength 8 =<BR>
has a point=20<BR>
blank-range of 8 meters. He shoots a Vargr whos barking at him 5 meters =<BR>
away.=20<BR>
Its a quick shot and its normally a difficult roll within close range, =<BR>
but using=20<BR>
the point blank-rule its only an average roll...</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>...and of course our guy hits his=20<BR>
target.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Any suggestions for point blank =<BR>
rules?</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Pedro Lopez</DIV><BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:44:05 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 4:35 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Lucky for you. I bet you didn't have a hunting license one you. And it<BR>
> wouldn't be possible to tell if it was the protected species or the<BR>
> game species....<BR>
> <BR>
> Sorry, but before I got my SKS, I was a bit frustrated to discover that<BR>
> not only were squirrels the only game animal it's legal to hunt with a<BR>
> .22 in this state, but that only one species is legal. And they don't<BR>
> describe it all that well!<BR>
<BR>
Grey squirrel GOOD<BR>
Red squirrel BAD<BR>
<BR>
The grey squirel is not native to Oregon, and is a pest.  If you get caught<BR>
with a red squirrel, you are in deep doodoo.<BR>
<BR>
The squirrels out west hardly seem worth bothering with.  I never understood<BR>
reading 'squirrel stew' and such.  I mean you'd need a zillion of them to<BR>
have enough to eat. The I went back east.  "Mein Gott!" they have squirrels<BR>
the size of a big rabbit.  Now them's eaten squirrels.<BR>
<BR>
It's always interesting to run into animals that you are familiar with in an<BR>
unfamiliar context.<BR>
<BR>
"Just watch out for the rabbits if you are going outside"<BR>
"Yeah, whatever"<BR>
<BR>
Moments later the door bursts open. PC with torn clothing, some blood, and a<BR>
hunted look in his eyes.<BR>
<BR>
"Giant...Carnivorous...Rabbits!<BR>
<BR>
"Yup.  Good eatin' though"<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:46:38 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Yes, but Forest Park is the largest park in the US that falls within a city<BR>
>limits.  We're not talking urban green strip.  And for all you New Yorkers<BR>
>out there: Central Park is tiny.<BR>
<BR>
Forest Park is a 4,600 acre municipal park. You could fit over three of that<BR>
in Phoenix's South Mountain Park. To the best of my knowledge, at 13,000+<BR>
acres it is the largest city park in the United States. Let me stress that<BR>
not only is it a city park, but it is within the city limits of Phoenix.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, I'm happy with the city park system here in Philadelphia.<BR>
We've managed to hold onto just under nine thousand acres in the Fairmount<BR>
Park system alone, and that's not counting all of the little national<BR>
historic parks across the city. Fairmount Park proper is just a few hundred<BR>
acres smaller than Forest Park (it's either 4,200 acres or 4,400 acres, I<BR>
can't recall at the moment), and contains dozens of beautiful sculptures and<BR>
memorials, one of the niftiest art museums in the country and a playground<BR>
with a sliding board which can accomodate 10 children side by side.<BR>
<BR>
Do you have such a sliding board within your city limits?<BR>
<BR>
Ha! Didn't think so!<BR>
<BR>
Yes, we here in Philadelphia understand that you upstarts out west had an<BR>
opportunity to go "park happy" because you had all of that unused land which<BR>
could just get set aside for municipal parks. Unfortunately, we didn't have<BR>
that luxury, but we still managed to pull through. Phoenix and Portland may<BR>
have beat us in size Fairmount Park proper is the largest landscaped park in<BR>
the United States.<BR>
<BR>
Now, as I am from the City of Brotherly Love, I will stick up for my New<BR>
York City brothers and point out that what Central Park lacks in size it<BR>
makes up for in sheer coolness. Cleopatra's Needle leaps immediately to<BR>
mind, as does Belvedere Castle and the really cute redhead I saw in Central<BR>
Park a short while ago... ahem. Sorry about that, I kind of got off track.<BR>
Where was I?<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah: Don't knock Central Park unless you have an obelisk, a castle and a<BR>
cute redhead in your park! More importantly, don't knock Philadelphia,<BR>
because you'll make me moderately surly, and that's not very polite.<BR>
<BR>
[Disclaimer (for the humor impaired): While I am astonishingly proud to call<BR>
Philadelphia home, and I also enjoy NYC's Central Park, the combative tone<BR>
of this message was intended to be humorous.]<BR>
<BR>
[ObTrav Disclaimer: Give me a few hours so I can tie this thread to<BR>
Traveller.]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2687<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 29 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2688<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Weapon Design (was: Doh! Dumb Question)<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: ancient water-cooled MGs<BR>
RE Point-blank<BR>
Re: Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: Point-blank<BR>
Re: Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
RQ (was RE: Gun Loving PCs)<BR>
Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
Re: Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death',  longish<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:55:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Patrick Tyrrell" <Ptyrrell@orrick.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Weapon Design (was: Doh! Dumb Question)<BR>
<BR>
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As a collector of older Curio & Relic firearms, I have to say that the<BR>
MN91/59 is the hardest kicking rifle I have ever fired.  It is a light<BR>
carbine that fires a full sized 7.62x54R round that roughly matches the<BR>
30.06 in ballistics.  It also has the most amazing muzzle flash and report.<BR>
It truly it an attention getter at the range.  But, without a recoil pad be<BR>
prepared to see bruises on your shoulder by the next day. On a related<BR>
subject, :) is there a published reference for a TL 16 Plasma Carbine and is<BR>
it canon or no? -Patrick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Rupert Boleyn [mailto:rboleyn@paradise.net.nz]<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 8:03 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Weapon Design (was: Doh! Dumb Question)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Jun 00, at 17:34, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> True to a point.  If we want to get technical, there are calculations for<BR>
> determining recoil energy, but you right, gun design plays a large part. <BR>
> I used to own a synthetic stock Browning A-bolt in .300 win mag.  The gun<BR>
> weighted 7.5 lbs and was a truly brutal kicker (and I am not particularly<BR>
> recoil sensitive).  By contrast, I love shooting my .458 win mag.  It is a<BR>
> 9lb rifle with a much better designed stock. Stiff recoil, but no too<BR>
> horrible.<BR>
<BR>
Want a heavy kicker? My father has a Parker & Hale Majestic in .30-06. <BR>
With a scope it comes in at about 7.5 lbs - not bad for a rifle made in <BR>
the early 60s. It used to have a hard butt plate, and man did it kick. <BR>
A few yaers ago he had a soft rubber butt pad put on it, refloated the <BR>
barrel and carefully added a pound of lead. It still doesn't seem very <BR>
heavy, but it's become a pleasant rifle to fire (IMO, anyway - a friend <BR>
of mine still thinks it kicks like a mule).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[INFO] -- Access Manager:<BR>
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<TITLE>RE: Weapon Design (was: Doh! Dumb Question)</TITLE><BR>
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<BR>
As a collector of older Curio &amp; Relic firearms, I =<BR>
have to say that the MN91/59 is the hardest kicking rifle I have ever =<BR>
fired.&nbsp; It is a light carbine that fires a full sized 7.62x54R =<BR>
round that roughly matches the 30.06 in ballistics.&nbsp; It also has =<BR>
the most amazing muzzle flash and report.&nbsp; It truly it an =<BR>
attention getter at the range.&nbsp; But, without a recoil pad be =<BR>
prepared to see bruises on your shoulder by the next day. On a related =<BR>
subject, :) is there a published reference for a TL 16 Plasma Carbine =<BR>
and is it canon or no? -Patrick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Rupert Boleyn [<A HREF="3D">mailto:rboleyn@paradise.net.nz</=A>]
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 8:03 PM
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
Subject: Re: Weapon Design (was: Doh! Dumb =Question)



On 28 Jun 00, at 17:34, Tod Glenn wrote:
&gt; True to a point.&nbsp; If we want to get =technical, there are calculations for
&gt; determining recoil energy, but you right, gun =design plays a large part. 
&gt; I used to own a synthetic stock Browning A-bolt =in .300 win mag.&nbsp; The gun
&gt; weighted 7.5 lbs and was a truly brutal kicker =(and I am not particularly
&gt; recoil sensitive).&nbsp; By contrast, I love =shooting my .458 win mag.&nbsp; It is a
&gt; 9lb rifle with a much better designed stock. =Stiff recoil, but no too
&gt; horrible.
Want a heavy kicker? My father has a Parker &amp; =Hale Majestic in .30-06. 
With a scope it comes in at about 7.5 lbs - not bad =for a rifle made in 
the early 60s. It used to have a hard butt plate, =and man did it kick. 
A few yaers ago he had a soft rubber butt pad put on =it, refloated the 
barrel and carefully added a pound of lead. It still =doesn't seem very 
heavy, but it's become a pleasant rifle to fire =(IMO, anyway - a friend 
of mine still thinks it kicks like a mule).


--
&quot;Rupert Boleyn&quot; =&lt;rboleyn@paradise.net.nz&gt;
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of =history.</A><BR>
<BR>
[INFO] -- Access Manager:<BR>
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- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE1E2.86BD1D64--------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:57:48 -0700From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCson 6/29/00 4:32 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:> In mail you write:> >> All my players have military background and two of us have been>> involved in weapon system design and testing, so none of us>> appear to be suffering from hoplophobia.> > What about hoplo*philia*? :-)> >> PC 4    15 mm massdriver shotgun, several types of ammunition>> (birdshot, buckshot, flechettes, brenneken slugs and HEP>> grenades).> > "Brenneken slugs"? Que va?Brenneke slugs.  Originally just rifled shotgun slugs.  IIRC, brenneke wasthe first company to put spiral striation on the slug itself to help spinstabilize shotgun slugs in smoothbore barrel.  I believe that Brenneke alsomarketed a version of the wasp-waisted BRI type sabotted slug.  This is a.50 hour-glass shaped slug that will soot right through a car door orballistic vest.I am actually in the process of writing an article on extending the tacticalutility of the combat shotgun, and ammunition figures prominently.  Thereare a lot of unknown but interesting types of shotgun ammo that really widenthe tactical niche into which the shotgun fits. Everything from slugs ,buckshot and such to things like the BRI slug (armor piercing), Argentinemini-grenade, Silent buckshot and shotgun loads that are lethal at 1000yards and will penetrate a steel helmet at 500 yards.Tod- --"Everything I need to know, I learned fromkilling smart people and eating their brains."- -- Tod Glennmailto:webmaster@travellercentral.comhttp://www.travellercentral.com------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:03:00 -0700From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>Subject: Re: ancient water-cooled MGson 6/29/00 5:33 AM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:> > > On 29 Jun 00, at 0:39, Tod Glenn wrote:> >> Oh, I almost forgot the M-72 LAWS, AT-4 and an honest to goodness Stinger>> (all photographed).  Now the Stinger, I'm really curious about.  How would>> a civilian get there hand on one?  It's not like they leave them laying>> around.  Ad what would you do with one?> > Well the US sent quite a few to Afganistan, and the route used to get> them there had to deniable, so you can imagine the attrition rate there> must have been om something as shiny as a new stinger missile.> > --> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>> > A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.> I'm told the CIA kept VERY careful track of these, since the didn't want anyof them save for later use against commercial airliners.  And I believe theone in question predated the Afgani war. I suppose it's possible.ObTrav:  How much military equipment (and what kind) goes missing fromImperial stores, or gets taken home in duffel bags?  Are their folks outtheir who "brought home this FGMP in a duffel bag after the war"?Tod- --"Everything I need to know, I learned fromkilling smart people and eating their brains."- -- Tod Glennmailto:webmaster@travellercentral.comhttp://www.travellercentral.com------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:05:08 -0400From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>Subject: RE Point-blankPedro Lopez writes:<snipped>>According to the rules in TNE, there is no difference when you shoot at =>a target thats 2 or 30 meters away from you as long its within close =>range.<snipped>>Any suggestions for point blank rules?	CT?<g, d, r>Peez------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:32:42 -0700From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>Subject: Re: Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)on 6/29/00 6:16 AM, Robert O'Connor at robocon@ozemail.com.au wrote:> The ideal recreational drug should be ingestible orally or by> inhalation, produce the desired frame of mind without untoward effects> on mental state, the regulation of visceral function, coagulation, or> cell division, not interact with other substances which might be used at> the same time, lack carcino- or mutagenicity, and have a predictable> duration of action.> > Wireheading is a more certain way of getting your kicks - you regard the> brain as a collection of 'black boxes' and stimulate a region you know> is going to work, in everyone.> > You could wire other centres too ; the regions of the hypothalamus> dealing with temperature regulation, appetite, sex drive ; the pain> suppression centres in the periaqueductal gray matter and thalamus...> > Ob Trav : Advanced medical techniques offer some scary possibilities to> repressive societies.> > > Robert O'Connor> Medico, Gamer> 'There are no dangerous drugs, just unskilled users.'> I recently hear a piece on NPR about the role of the amygdala in fear.Quite interesting, and this of course let to the Solomani drug Amygdanol, apsychomimetics that produces deep sensations of fear, dread and anxiety.Useful for those long, boring interrogations by SolSec.I also recall reading about a (viral?) outbreak in  Germany somewhere in the50s or 60s.  The infection has a proclivity for damaging the 'rage center'of the brain, with very disturbing results.I use a variation of the 'wire-head' thing as part of the training of mySolomani CRI (Conditioned Reflex Infantry).  Show target, hit target, getreward ( very mild zap to pleasure center).  That sort of thing.  And yes,the potential for use in high-tech repressive societies (or not sorepressive) is frightening.  "Now we can cure violent behavior.  We just setup a feedback loop to the pain center so that the criminal get an nice joltwhenever he's bad.  Hello Clockwork Orange.Tod "But he had won a victory over himself.  He loved Big Brother" Glenn- --"Everything I need to know, I learned fromkilling smart people and eating their brains."- -- Tod Glennmailto:webmaster@travellercentral.comhttp://www.travellercentral.com------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:06:48From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCsAt 11:22 PM 6/28/2000 -0500, you wrote:>For small calibre rounds that might be *too* much damage. Of course it'son >a made by 9 roll too, so it would be unlikely.>>I'll have to think about it a little.Most often, the 'made by nine' result comes after spending a number of APaiming, in essence, the character spends several seconds doing nothing butmaking this shot.It was also the only way I could think of to model the really weird shitthat happens in real gunfights (it was also the method used in T4).  Yes,the body pistol only does 1D, but if it hits the target's eye, or rupturesthe aorta...  In a similar vein (npi), during a playtest we had a characterget hit at point blank range by a 3D attack with double damage.  The dicecame up snake eyes.  Obviously a through and through that took off somemuscle, but missed all the vital bits.Experience has shown that the majority of shots made in combat are QuickShots, which cost less AP but have an increased difficulty.  You don't getmany increased damage hits with those types of attacks.- --Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.comhttp://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:09:10From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCsAt 03:35 AM 6/29/2000 PST, you wrote:>> While firing a .50ca; sniper rifle, I managed to hiot a squirrel that was>> on top of one of the range markers.  Not intentional, but my shot went a>> little high.>>>> The phrase "pink mist" doesn't begin to describe the effects...>>Lucky for you. I bet you didn't have a hunting license one you. And it>wouldn't be possible to tell if it was the protected species or the>game species....This was at Ft. Benning, Ga., during the acceptance tests on the BarrettLight .50.  Anything dumb enought to wander onto that range was a target.This includes junior officers. :P- -- Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.comhttp://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.htmlEgotist: a person more interested in himself than in me.- -- Ambrose Bierce------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:13:34From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)At 03:29 PM 6/29/2000 +1200, you wrote:>>>On 28 Jun 00, at 20:19, Douglas E. Berry wrote:>>> BUY _AT CLOSE QUARTERS_!  The Greatest Combat System For Traveller With>> Penguins In It! -- >>If the rumours of Warehouse23 having it are true I'll be buying it in >due course. Hmm. One question - how easy is it to bolt onto TNE?Erm.  That's our one Achilles' Heel.  The TNE system makes some differentassumptions and uses strangely-shaped dice.  It would take so house rules,but you could do it.. I don't remember enough of TNE to feel comfortableattempting to write this up.Tell you what, if you do the conversion, we'll include it in the ACQCompanion, or whatever we end up calling the second book, which is startingto look like a necessity.- -- Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now aperfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out oflimbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:20:02From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>Subject: Re: not so small armsAt 02:04 AM 6/29/2000 PST, you wrote:>Well, for Legionaires, it isn't *their* country. :-)LOL! One of my favorite stories is the make-up of the FFL troops at DienBien Phu.. seems that almost all of the enlisted troops were native Germanspeakers, all of whom claimed to been ethnically German Poles.  Somebodydid a little research, and discovered that this was the bulk of a SSDivision that had been offered enlistment in the Legion or a war crimestribunal.The Viet Minh would broadcast songs of the french resistance over the FFLradio nets, driving the officers nuts.  Amazing battle.- -- Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.comhttp://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:22:43From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>Subject: Re: Point-blankAt 05:42 PM 6/29/2000 +0200, you wrote:>Standing five meters away from my enemy, shooting at him three times...andhit nothing. That happens often when I play TNE. >>According to the rules in TNE, there is no difference when you shoot at atarget thats 2 or 30 meters away from you as long its within close range.>>Does anybody have an idea to a point blank-rule, that makes it easier tohit your target, when its right in front of you? I suggest having yourstrength or agility defining the point blank-range where the difficultylevel is better than usual. <broken record>ACQ</broken record>- -- Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.comhttp://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:37:05 -0700From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>Subject: Re: Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)on 6/29/00 8:03 AM, J-Man at j-man@iname.com wrote:> Hey robert, I'm taking "Paxil", what sort of anti-depressant is that?SSRI.  Selective Seratonin Re-uptake Inhibitor.If you ever want to get yourself paranoid about medications, read the PDR(Physician's Desk Reference) description of side effects.  And NO drug iswithout them.  Heck, peanuts will kill you if have an alergy.Tod- --"Everything I need to know, I learned fromkilling smart people and eating their brains."- -- Tod Glennmailto:webmaster@travellercentral.comhttp://www.travellercentral.com------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:47:40 EDTFrom: GypsyComet@aol.comSubject: RQ (was RE: Gun Loving PCs)"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> sez:>On 28 Jun 00, at 11:54, Ian Ferguson wrote:>>> Matt Bond writes:>> >>A sword you can trust.>> >"Aye! 'Till t'bastard breaks on yer!">> >My character was always having his bastard sword broken in RQ, so he>> >ended up carrying two on his person, and another 2 on his horse...>> <snipped>>> >>  Yup, RQ is a bit harsh on weapon durability.  I instituted>>  house rules to increase the survivability of weapons, but they>>  still snap from time to time.>>RQ3's not nearly as harsh. And RQ4 (aka Hero Wars; <www.glorantha.com>) doesn't worry about it at all, though it could be a side affect...GC------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:53:09 -0700From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>Subject: Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?on 6/29/00 8:46 AM, Chris Seamans at semo@pil.net wrote:> > Now, as I am from the City of Brotherly Love, I will stick up for my New> York City brothers and point out that what Central Park lacks in size it> makes up for in sheer coolness. Cleopatra's Needle leaps immediately to> mind, as does Belvedere Castle and the really cute redhead I saw in Central> Park a short while ago... ahem. Sorry about that, I kind of got off track.> Where was I?> > Oh yeah: Don't knock Central Park unless you have an obelisk, a castle and a> cute redhead in your park! More importantly, don't knock Philadelphia,> because you'll make me moderately surly, and that's not very polite.My park can beat up your park?And I bet your cute redhead shaves her legs, doesn't wear tie-die orBirkenstocks, and has never been to a "Grateful Dead" concert.  She doesn't'twirl', have a 'meat is murder' bumper sticker on her 20 year old Volvo orthing that Ronald Reagan, IS the anti-christ (OK, maybe that last one).  Idoubt she wears Pechulie oil (sp?), or has a friend who a real-live activeanarchist.  Leonard, am I making this up?> > [Disclaimer (for the humor impaired): While I am astonishingly proud to call> Philadelphia home, and I also enjoy NYC's Central Park, the combative tone> of this message was intended to be humorous.]> > [ObTrav Disclaimer: Give me a few hours so I can tie this thread to> Traveller.]Personally, I doubt if I could live anywhere east of the Mississippi.  Ineed my space.  Some people actually like to live in places like New York."east is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet"Tod "who enjoys travelling back east, mostly for the restaurants" Glenn- --"Everything I need to know, I learned fromkilling smart people and eating their brains."- -- Tod Glennmailto:webmaster@travellercentral.comhttp://www.travellercentral.com------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:14:03 -0400From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com>Subject: Re: Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)Where do I find info on Paxil?  I've already noticed a couple of sideeffects (not serious)___________________________________________________________ J-Man ICQ# 2843475 New Hampshire - U.S.A. Email : j-man@iname.com Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/___________________________________________________________- ----- Original Message -----From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 12:37 PMSubject: Re: Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)> on 6/29/00 8:03 AM, J-Man at j-man@iname.com wrote:>> > Hey robert, I'm taking "Paxil", what sort of anti-depressant is that?>> SSRI.  Selective Seratonin Re-uptake Inhibitor.>> If you ever want to get yourself paranoid about medications, read the PDR> (Physician's Desk Reference) description of side effects.  And NO drug is> without them.  Heck, peanuts will kill you if have an alergy.>> Tod> --> "Everything I need to know, I learned from> killing smart people and eating their brains."> --> Tod Glenn> mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com> http://www.travellercentral.com>------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:10:25 -0400From: rgd@infinet.comSubject: Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)On Thu, Jun 29, 2000 at 04:00:13AM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:> But the bureaucracies convinced the Emperor that China didn't need to> waste time on this or contact "barbarians". So the fleet was destroyed.> > And a few hundred years later China was *forced* to deal with the> barbarians. > > As I write this, I note that it's uncomfortably close to what the US> did after we landed on the moon. Right down to political manuevering> with charges of wasted money, and more urgent problems at home. ...and I just saw the following article:http://slashdot.org/articles/00/06/28/146225.shtml     India Plans Moon Mission in 2005     I just came across this article in which     the Indian Space Research Organization (http://www.isro.org) has     announced plans for a moon mission. Considering that till now India has     only launched geo-synchronous satellites, that's a big leap. But ISRO     scientists claim by using a lightweight orbital vehicle they can use their     existing PSLV (which launches 1-tonne missions into polar orbit) to send an     orbiter to the moon. The full article is available at India Today."      (http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20000703/cover.html)     (No, not a manned mission, at least not yet.) ------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:14:11 -0600 (MDT)From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>Subject: Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?Well, here in Albuquerque we have a 27 mile (least that's thewalking distance last time I did the crest trail) "park" on the Eastend of town. It's 10,678 feet high, too :-PCentral park (et al) would fit in front of ours like a door mat :-D- -MerrickPS-being fromj Connecticut, I was amazed when I realized that fromthe top of our mountains I could see an area in the desert biggerthan my previous home state.------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:31:50 -0700From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>Subject: Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?on 6/29/00 10:14 AM, Merrick Burkhardt at merrick@shell.rt66.com wrote:> Well, here in Albuquerque we have a 27 mile (least that's the> walking distance last time I did the crest trail) "park" on the East> end of town. It's 10,678 feet high, too :-P> > Central park (et al) would fit in front of ours like a door mat :-D> > -Merrick> > PS-being fromj Connecticut, I was amazed when I realized that from> the top of our mountains I could see an area in the desert bigger> than my previous home state.> New Mexico, land of sand.  My wife was just up at White Sands.  I now knowthat NM leads the nation in skin cancer.  Quite a change from Connecticut.Was this a job change thing, or does one just suddenly say "doggoneit!, Ineed some space.  And with none of those darned trees and things to get inthe way.Landscaping has an entirely different meaning there.  I actually prefer theterm "moon scaping"  Only in New Mexico, Arizona or Nevada would cactus andsome rocks be considered a front yard.Of course, here in western Oregon, moss grows on everything (cars, planes,slow moving animals)  Rhodadendrons are weeds, it rains 185 days out of theyear and suicide is legal.  We are right now finally having hot weather andsun, and it's amusing to watch all the Portlanders wandering aroud andlooking up "wow, sure is a nice day.  I wonder what that big yellow thing inthe sky is?"Tod "moss-back" Glenn- --"Everything I need to know, I learned fromkilling smart people and eating their brains."- -- Tod Glennmailto:webmaster@travellercentral.comhttp://www.travellercentral.com------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:46:41 -0400From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>Subject: Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death',  longish"Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au> wrote:>> I thought I'd take a crack at creating a concensus statement before the> 'Vilani bioscience' thread degenerated.Oh yeah, baby. Awesome post Robert. Besides, having essentially zeroknowledge of biology, I'd really be hard pressed to debate the finerpoints of it with you.>      Microbes (bacteria, yeast analogues) were discovered with the> advent of appropriate optics. Subsequently, the germ theory of disease> was proposed, and gained acceptance once sufficiently firm evidence > of a link arose[1].Of course, it wasn't like everybody accepted germ theory on itsfirst time around here either. I recently saw a reprinting of the (possibly apocryphal) story of the Hungarian doctor who was ridiculedfor suggesting that hand-washing could lower infection rates inhis hospital (back in the mid-1800's). Resistance to change is notlimited to the Vilani by any means. :)>      Viruses were discovered by veterinary researchers[2]. While the> fact of the differences between the Vilani and Vland's biota is well> recognised, the reasons behind it were not aggressively investigated.Huh. Probably. Interesting to think that Vilani zoologists would havebeen way ahead of their human-centric counterparts.>      The 'Plague of Duskir' was the most notable of these. It was> thought to be actually due to several different viral and bacterial> pathogens. The founding of the Rule of Man was marred by lesser> outbreaks, which doubtless played some role in the collapse of the> Second Imperium.Undoubtedly.> Sorry about mangling tenses with my diatribe.Eh. Don't worry about it.> I'm wary of provoking a flamefest. A compromise/concensus statement> looks like the best way to effect a 'win-win' situation for all> concerned.Paf. It beats debates about correlation/causation links between gunownership and violent crime any day.> Now, back to the ballistics forum...Please, no, anything but that...Ethan------------------------------End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2688***********************************To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:unsubscribe traveller-digestin the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail iscoming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append thataddress to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe"local-traveller":subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.netA non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; tosubscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"in the commands above with "traveller".Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>Received: from  rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (rly-zc05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.5]) by air-zc02.mail.aol.com (v75.18) with ESMTP; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:48:10 -0400Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (v75.18) with ESMTP; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:47:22 -0400Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA33057;	Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:46:16 -0400 (EDT)	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:46:13 -0400Received: (from majordom@localhost)	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA33027	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:46:12 -0400 (EDT)	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:46:12 -0400 (EDT)Message-Id: <200006291746.NAA33027@lists.imagiconline.com>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.comSubject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2688Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.comSender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2689</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	6/29/00 1:02:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 29 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2689<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Recoil<BR>
I am a Heretic...<BR>
Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: not so small arms OT:<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
MIME<BR>
Re: Crime in the 3I (was: Maps & Plotters)<BR>
Re: Medical query<BR>
RE: MIME<BR>
RE: Coke Cans (way OT)<BR>
Re: Recoil<BR>
Re: Stopping power<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
RQ (was RE: Gun Loving PCs)<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:09:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Recoil<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Weapon Design (Sights, Recoil and stock design)<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>Stock design is the number one determinor of recoil and controllability.<BR>
>Straight line stocks transmit MORE recoil to the shooter, BUT since the<BR>
>force is inline with the stock, the gun rises less, or not at all depending<BR>
>on the ergonomics of the rifle. Recoil, even in the heavies is nothing when<BR>
>you are standing and are properly holding the weapon.<BR>
<BR>
	I've got a "for what it's worth" recoil story:  Years ago I spent a year in<BR>
Iceland (not in the service, I was working for the University), and one of<BR>
my coworkers had a friend (yep...'friend of a friend' story here :) who<BR>
lived up on the north coast.  It seems this guy did a bit of seal hunting<BR>
for fun.  He would set up behind a nice, large rock with what was reported<BR>
to me to be an ancient 4-bore shotgun ( ! ).  I doubt that anyone makes<BR>
modern slugs for this thing, so he was probably shooting the old 'pumpkin<BR>
balls' - in this case, a 1/4 POUND of lead.  For those list members who<BR>
don't shoot, when you shoot sonething big and heavy from a standing or<BR>
near-standing position, your spine can flex, your body being pushed smoothly<BR>
back (just be damn sure to hold the stock TIGHT against your shoulder and<BR>
don't get your eyebrow too close to the scope).<BR>
	Well, it as the story goes, the farmer spotted a big, fat bull seal down<BR>
the beach, but it was nowhere near any large rocks.  So Elmer Fudd the<BR>
viking lowcrawls down to beach to a small bit of cover, gets into a prone<BR>
position, and fires......<BR>
	....after he regains consciousness.....<BR>
	He had never fired the gun from a prone position before.  The recoil,<BR>
instead of pushing him back and almost over, went straight down the length<BR>
of his body.  It wasn't mentioned if the shoulder and collarbone were still<BR>
intact, but you couldn't PAY me to take that shot.<BR>
	ObTrav (or ObGaming) - One GM told me that he used a penalty for<BR>
high-recoiling guns.  A player, who's character was not really big on<BR>
hardware, was required to take a shot with something obnoxiously huge with a<BR>
very high recoil penalty.  The player argued, and the GM accepted the<BR>
arguement, that for the first shot (the particular situation only really<BR>
required one shot, but it had to be a GOOD shot), his player should not be<BR>
penalized because he has no idea what he is in for.  He's just going to line<BR>
up the sights and concentrate on trigger pull like he was taught and will<BR>
not be flinching or anticipating the punishment he is about to receive.  If<BR>
I were the GM and in a picky mood, I would probably drop most of the<BR>
penalty, but not all, since while the character will not be anticipating the<BR>
recoil, but at the same time not doing all the little things one does to<BR>
keep the recoil from knocking the weapon off target while the slug is still<BR>
in the bore.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:13:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Patrick Tyrrell" <Ptyrrell@orrick.com><BR>
Subject: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand<BR>
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.<BR>
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<BR>
I have been Lurking on this list for the last couple of weeks.  After<BR>
reviewing the discussions I have come to the conclusion that I have<BR>
seriously deviated from the norm.  I am using MegaTraveller rules with the<BR>
addition of a variety of elements from a game called Space Opera and a game<BR>
called Gamma World.  Mostly equipment, weapons, character types and skills<BR>
and creatures.  None of the PC's have gunpowder weapons, the only<BR>
MegaTraveller personal weapons used are Lasers, Gauss guns, and<BR>
Fusion/Plasma guns (not that they couldn't they exist in the game).  The<BR>
rest are a variety of "Ray Guns" (blasters, disrupters) pulled from Space<BR>
Opera and converted to MT stats.  My question is, is anyone else on the list<BR>
running a similar type game?  -Patrick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[INFO] -- Access Manager:<BR>
_______________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
NOTICE TO RECIPIENT:  THIS E-MAIL IS  MEANT FOR ONLY THE INTENDED RECIPIENT OF THE TRANSMISSION, AND MAY BE A COMMUNICATION PRIVILEGED BY LAW.  IF YOU RECEIVED THIS E-MAIL IN ERROR, ANY REVIEW, USE, DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING OF THIS E-MAIL IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED.  PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY OF THE ERROR BY RETURN E-MAIL AND PLEASE DELETE THIS MESSAGE FROM YOUR SYSTEM. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR COOPERATION.<BR>
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<TITLE>I am a Heretic...</TITLE><BR>
</HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I have been Lurking on this list for the last couple =<BR>
of weeks.&nbsp; After reviewing the discussions I have come to the =<BR>
conclusion that I have seriously deviated from the norm.&nbsp; I am =<BR>
using MegaTraveller rules with the addition of a variety of elements =<BR>
from a game called Space Opera and a game called Gamma World.&nbsp; =<BR>
Mostly equipment, weapons, character types and skills and =<BR>
creatures.&nbsp; None of the PC's have gunpowder weapons, the only =<BR>
MegaTraveller personal weapons used are Lasers, Gauss guns, and =<BR>
Fusion/Plasma guns (not that they couldn't they exist in the =<BR>
game).&nbsp; The rest are a variety of &quot;Ray Guns&quot; (blasters, =<BR>
disrupters) pulled from Space Opera and converted to MT stats.&nbsp; My =<BR>
question is, is anyone else on the list running a similar type =<BR>
game?&nbsp; -Patrick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[INFO] -- Access Manager:<BR>
_______________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
NOTICE TO RECIPIENT:  THIS E-MAIL IS  MEANT FOR ONLY THE INTENDED RECIPIENT OF THE TRANSMISSION, AND MAY BE A COMMUNICATION PRIVILEGED BY LAW.  IF YOU RECEIVED THIS E-MAIL IN ERROR, ANY REVIEW, USE, DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING OF THIS E-MAIL IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED.  PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY OF THE ERROR BY RETURN E-MAIL AND PLEASE DELETE THIS MESSAGE FROM YOUR SYSTEM. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR COOPERATION.<BR>
<BR>
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE1F5.CBDEDEE2--------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:18:06 -0400From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>Subject: Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:>> We are right now finally having hot weather and> sun, and it's amusing to watch all the Portlanders wandering aroud and> looking up "wow, sure is a nice day.  I wonder what that big yellow > thing in the sky is?"As the software developers where I work say,  "No! The daystar! How it burns! Aie!"Toronto is having quite the opposite - we've had probably a dozen (non-continous) days of rain and that about 11 more than we get in a typical summer, though the humidity usually hovers around 80% orso (ugh).ObTrav: There's got to be at least one planet where, like Canada,the weather qualifies as a serious topic for discussions that can last 30 minutes or more.Ethan------------------------------Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:36:09 -0400From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com>Subject: Re: I am a Heretic...This is a multi-part message in MIME format.- ------=_NextPart_000_0243_01BFE1D7.5D8E7A60Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printableI am a Heretic...Patrick - Yes I am playing a game like yours.___________________________________________________________ J-Man ICQ# 2843475 New Hampshire - U.S.A. Email : j-man@iname.com Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/___________________________________________________________  ----- Original Message -----=20  From: Patrick Tyrrell=20  To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'=20  Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 2:13 PM  Subject: I am a Heretic...  I have been Lurking on this list for the last couple of weeks.  After =reviewing the discussions I have come to the conclusion that I have =seriously deviated from the norm.  I am using MegaTraveller rules with =the addition of a variety of elements from a game called Space Opera and =a game called Gamma World.  Mostly equipment, weapons, character types =and skills and creatures.  None of the PC's have gunpowder weapons, the =only MegaTraveller personal weapons used are Lasers, Gauss guns, and =Fusion/Plasma guns (not that they couldn't they exist in the game).  The =rest are a variety of "Ray Guns" (blasters, disrupters) pulled from =Space Opera and converted to MT stats.  My question is, is anyone else =on the list running a similar type game?  -Patrick  [INFO] -- Access Manager:  _______________________________________________________  NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: THIS E-MAIL IS MEANT FOR ONLY THE INTENDED =RECIPIENT OF THE TRANSMISSION, AND MAY BE A COMMUNICATION PRIVILEGED BY =LAW. IF YOU RECEIVED THIS E-MAIL IN ERROR, ANY REVIEW, USE, =DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING OF THIS E-MAIL IS STRICTLY =PROHIBITED. PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY OF THE ERROR BY RETURN E-MAIL =AND PLEASE DELETE THIS MESSAGE FROM YOUR SYSTEM. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE =FOR YOUR COOPERATION.- ------=_NextPart_000_0243_01BFE1D7.5D8E7A60Content-Type: text/html;	charset="iso-8859-1"Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><HEAD><TITLE>I am a Heretic...</TITLE><META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =http-equiv=3DContent-Type><META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3018.900" name=3DGENERATOR><STYLE></STYLE></HEAD><DIV>Patrick - Yes I am =playing a game=20like yours.</DIV><DIV>___________________________________________________________<BR>
&nbsp=;J-Man<BR>
&nbsp;ICQ#=202843475<BR>
&nbsp;New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
&nbsp;Email : <A=20href=3D"mailto:j-man@iname.com">j-man@iname.com<BR>
&nbsp;Home Page : =<A=20href=3D"http://www.gocsystems.com/">http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___=________________________________________________________<BR>
</DIV><BLOCKQUOTE=20style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>  <DIV=20  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =black"><B>From:</B>=20  <A HREF="3D">Patrick=20  Tyrrell</A> </DIV>  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20  href=3D"mailto:'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'"=20  =title=3Dtraveller@lists.imagiconline.com>'traveller@lists.imagiconline.co=m'=20  </DIV>  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 29, 2000 =2:13=20  PM</DIV>  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> I am a =Heretic...</DIV>  <DIV><BR>
</DIV>  <BR>
I have been Lurking on this list for the last couple = of=20   weeks.&nbsp; After reviewing the discussions I have come to the = conclusion=20   that I have seriously deviated from the norm.&nbsp; I am using = MegaTraveller=20   rules with the addition of a variety of elements from a game called = Space=20   Opera and a game called Gamma World.&nbsp; Mostly equipment, weapons,=20   character types and skills and creatures.&nbsp; None of the PC's have=20   gunpowder weapons, the only MegaTraveller personal weapons used are = Lasers,=20   Gauss guns, and Fusion/Plasma guns (not that they couldn't they exist = in the=20   game).&nbsp; The rest are a variety of "Ray Guns" (blasters, = disrupters)=20   pulled from Space Opera and converted to MT stats.&nbsp; My question =is, is=20  anyone else on the list running a similar type game?&nbsp;=20  -Patrick<BR>
[INFO] -- Access=20  =Manager:<BR>
_______________________________________________________<BR>
<B=R>NOTICE=20  TO RECIPIENT: THIS E-MAIL IS MEANT FOR ONLY THE INTENDED RECIPIENT OF =THE=20   TRANSMISSION, AND MAY BE A COMMUNICATION PRIVILEGED BY LAW. IF YOU = RECEIVED=20   THIS E-MAIL IN ERROR, ANY REVIEW, USE, DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR = COPYING=20   OF THIS E-MAIL IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY OF = THE=20   ERROR BY RETURN E-MAIL AND PLEASE DELETE THIS MESSAGE FROM YOUR = SYSTEM. THANK=20  YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR =COOPERATION.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:38:14 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Yeah, Maine coons get really big.  Ours is a domestic short hair (i.e. plain<BR>
>old cat).  Mind you, I am a dog person, and never really like cats (they are<BR>
>EVIL).  But one can not help but admire a creature that is de-clawed and<BR>
>spent his first 5 years restricted to indoors, and is now the tough cat in<BR>
>the area and the mighty hunter.  He is now 15 and shows little sign of<BR>
>slowing down.  Friends remark (back me up on this Red) that he has the<BR>
>softest fur, the result of no other grooming than his daily roll in the<BR>
>'special' grooming gravel in front of our house.<BR>
<BR>
Consider yourself backed up, in spades.  Julius beats up on the <BR>
Rottweiller inside the house, and anything else in the neighbourhood <BR>
outside.  And hunts very effectively, even without the front claws (3 <BR>
out of 6 ends still being pointy).  And his fur is incredibly soft. <BR>
That gravel does wonders.<BR>
<BR>
>When you own a dog, you have a loyal companion for life.  When you have a<BR>
>cat, you have a room mate who has his own ideas about things and tolerate<BR>
>you as long as you provide food.  Cats are not domesticated.<BR>
<BR>
Everyone should have a dog to adore them, and a cat to ignore them. <BR>
You come home, the dog is thrilled that you've returned, even if <BR>
you've been gone five minutes.  You come home after a month, the cat <BR>
looks at you as if to say "You were gone?  What did you bring me?"<BR>
<BR>
>Which raises another question.  PCs with pets?  Anybody travelling around<BR>
>with something weird.  Do players out there have pets?  With a few notable<BR>
>exceptions, my players don't tend to have pets.<BR>
<BR>
I have just one characters with pets.  Four very large dogs (acquired <BR>
on an adventure), and a hyper-intelligent, Gendyne ferret.  The <BR>
ferret is the only one that travels.<BR>
<BR>
>And what is the ideal ship pet.  We discussed this a while back, but I'd be<BR>
>curios to get the List's take.<BR>
<BR>
Cats, traditionally. Although I suppose anything small would work <BR>
(rat, hamster, ferret, etc.).  I guess it would depend on the size of <BR>
the ship, as well.<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<no pets currently, except for my husband><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:43:36 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms OT:<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >Well, for Legionaires, it isn't *their* country. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> LOL! One of my favorite stories is the make-up of the FFL troops at Dien<BR>
> Bien Phu.. seems that almost all of the enlisted troops were native German<BR>
> speakers, all of whom claimed to been ethnically German Poles.  Somebody<BR>
> did a little research, and discovered that this was the bulk of a SS<BR>
> Division that had been offered enlistment in the Legion or a war crimes<BR>
> tribunal.<BR>
<BR>
See 'Devil's Guard' by George Elford, 1971, Dell, ISBN<BR>
0-440-12014-4, for an interesting (albeit slightly self<BR>
aggrandizing and insufficiently apologetic for his Nazi past)<BR>
personal history of the French Foreign Legion's Nazi batallion<BR>
and a biography of a fomer SS Obersturmfuhrer partisan-jaeger <BR>
turned Legion officer. A good war story, well written. It is<BR>
probably not 100% accurate. I would not reccomend it for<BR>
any one under the age of eightenn though, as it is liable to<BR>
encourage them to symathize with the Nazi's (which is generally<BR>
considered to be undesireable).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:55:28 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>How does the 3I view lawyers on the Imperial side?  <BR>
>I the US, they witnesses take an oath, the judges does and<BR>
<BR>
>the jury, too.  The only ones not sworn are the lawyers.  <BR>
>Make you wonder.<BR>
<BR>
What oath do judges take in United States?  When they<BR>
become judges they take an oath to uphold the constitution,<BR>
which is not too different from the oath lawyers take when<BR>
they become lawyers.  It sounds like you are talking about<BR>
at trial, however.  At trial, the only oaths made are by<BR>
(1) witnesses, swearing to tell the truth; (2) potential<BR>
jurors on voir dire, again swearing to tell the truth; (3)<BR>
possibly jurors upon being empanelled, swearing not to<BR>
decide until all of the evidence is submitted.  Judges,<BR>
lawyers, the court reporter, bailiffs, law clerks, other<BR>
court staff, and spectators do not make any oaths.  <BR>
<BR>
It makes you wonder.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:06:17 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: MIME<BR>
<BR>
Patrick Tyrrell writes:<BR>
>This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand<BR>
>this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.<BR>
>- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE1E2.86BD1D64<BR>
>Content-Type: text/plain; <BR>
>charset=iso-8859-1<BR>
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
<much snippage><BR>
<BR>
	Aaack.  Please, save us from the curse of the MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:06:52 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Crime in the 3I (was: Maps & Plotters)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/28/00 6:49 PM, Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Fresno???<BR>
> <BR>
> Yeesh I am _sorry_<BR>
> <BR>
> I lived there for ten long, hellish years<BR>
<BR>
Well, I /live/ up in the mountains, but I did live in Fresno for about three<BR>
years, and although they weren't "hellish", I was robbed multiple times. It<BR>
is getting pretty bad there. At least they have trees and grass. I am quite<BR>
happy to be back where concrete and blacktop are extremely rare. Not to<BR>
mention crime.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: It occurs to me that although Law Level is associated with crime,<BR>
the two are not the same. Any thoughts on Crime Level in Traveller? Perhaps<BR>
a factor of Gov type, Law Level and population? Might be nice to separate<BR>
types of crime too, such as violence, theft, vandalism, etc.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:15:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Medical query<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/28/00 6:51 PM, eris@pcola.gulf.net issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Eris,<BR>
> with pain in his left ear right now<BR>
<BR>
You might try a heating pad on the side of your neck just below the ear. I<BR>
used to have very bad earaches and found that and hot showers to be<BR>
wonderful. Earaches are the worst, they can be excruciating, and there is<BR>
little one can do about it. I would rather have an open wound than stomach<BR>
cramps, headaches or earaches. Within limits of course.<BR>
<BR>
NOTE: I am /not/ a doctor, nor do I play one in RPGs. Consult the medical<BR>
expert of your choice.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:26:14 -0700<BR>
From: "Patrick Tyrrell" <Ptyrrell@orrick.com><BR>
Subject: RE: MIME<BR>
<BR>
My apologies everyone, I am attempting to send this UUENCODE if it doesn't<BR>
work then I won't send anything to the list from work (Outlook... ick!) but<BR>
only from home.  Sorry for the irritation.  -Patrick<BR>
<BR>
<much snippage><BR>
<BR>
	Aaack.  Please, save us from the curse of the MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[INFO] -- Access Manager:<BR>
_______________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
NOTICE TO RECIPIENT:  THIS E-MAIL IS  MEANT FOR ONLY THE INTENDED RECIPIENT OF THE TRANSMISSION, AND MAY BE A COMMUNICATION PRIVILEGED BY LAW.  IF YOU RECEIVED THIS E-MAIL IN ERROR, ANY REVIEW, USE, DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING OF THIS E-MAIL IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED.  PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY OF THE ERROR BY RETURN E-MAIL AND PLEASE DELETE THIS MESSAGE FROM YOUR SYSTEM. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR COOPERATION.<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:44:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Coke Cans (way OT)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Odd Calibers (was:  Player choices of weapons)<BR>
><BR>
<bigsnip><BR>
>"Who needs a silencer, just use MilTech's new silent<BR>
>ammunition".  The technology all came out of the can making industry.<BR>
><BR>
>"The Coka Cola corporation is proud to announce it's newest product, silent<BR>
>coke"<BR>
><BR>
>Technology on the shelf and ready to be used.<BR>
<BR>
	:)  Actually, my grandfather was the metallurgist/engineer that designed<BR>
that equipment.  It's pretty slick:  the blanks are cut from aluminum sheet,<BR>
and drawn TWICE, all with one machine stroke - the punch that pushes into<BR>
the first die is hollow, forming the second drawing die.  As it travels<BR>
down, it meets a second punch coming up and the cans actually pop insideout<BR>
as they go into the second die.  How he thought of that I'll never know.<BR>
	He was also a metallurgist in WWII, in magnesium production (i.e. for<BR>
firebombs).  I've heard a lot of interesting stories about that time.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:52:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Recoil<BR>
<BR>
I should have qualified my earlier post: Recoil is nothing...assuming<BR>
"normal" small arms. In a Very old Guns and Ammo (Circa 1972), they had an<BR>
article about some of the large bore rifles: they showed a picture of an 8<BR>
Bore firing a full power round by a young man with very long hair. His hair<BR>
was almost horizontal, nearly completely obsuring his face because the<BR>
recoil was shoving him back so hard. What do you expect? Firing a two and a<BR>
half ounce projectile at 2000 FPS from a rifle weighing 11 pounds is NOT<BR>
exactly "User Friendly"<BR>
<BR>
Just for fun, I calculated the recoil:<BR>
<BR>
Projectile: 0.156 lbs. + Propellant: 0.078lbs =  0.234 Lbs * 2000FPS = 468<BR>
Lb-Ft/Sec<BR>
<BR>
Rifle: 11lbs<BR>
<BR>
468 Lb.-Ft/Sec / 11Lbs =   42.55 Ft/Sec (It's gonna hurt, trust me)<BR>
<BR>
0.5 * 11 Lbs x (42.55 Ft/Sec)^2 / 64.32 = 154.82 Ft-Lbs Free Recoil<BR>
<BR>
Compare that with the .460 Weatherby which has about 107 Foot Pounds of<BR>
recoil...I did enjoy shooting the .460 from the standing position, but the<BR>
recoil, while not painful, was certainly there. Still, I'd try an 8<BR>
Bore...maybe even a 4 Bore, just once.<BR>
<BR>
FYI: the Tolley 4 bore used a 5.5 ounce "Minie" projectile with a powder<BR>
charge of over 3 ounces of black powder...Muzzle velocity of 1500 to 2000<BR>
fps. No, we really don't need the numbers, do we?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 11:09 AM<BR>
Subject: RE: Recoil<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
> >Subject: Re: Weapon Design (Sights, Recoil and stock design)<BR>
> ><BR>
> <snip><BR>
> ><BR>
> >Stock design is the number one determinor of recoil and controllability.<BR>
> >Straight line stocks transmit MORE recoil to the shooter, BUT since the<BR>
> >force is inline with the stock, the gun rises less, or not at all<BR>
depending<BR>
> >on the ergonomics of the rifle. Recoil, even in the heavies is nothing<BR>
when<BR>
> >you are standing and are properly holding the weapon.<BR>
><BR>
> I've got a "for what it's worth" recoil story:  Years ago I spent a year<BR>
in<BR>
> Iceland (not in the service, I was working for the University), and one of<BR>
> my coworkers had a friend (yep...'friend of a friend' story here :) who<BR>
> lived up on the north coast.  It seems this guy did a bit of seal hunting<BR>
> for fun.  He would set up behind a nice, large rock with what was reported<BR>
> to me to be an ancient 4-bore shotgun ( ! ).  I doubt that anyone makes<BR>
> modern slugs for this thing, so he was probably shooting the old 'pumpkin<BR>
> balls' - in this case, a 1/4 POUND of lead.  For those list members who<BR>
> don't shoot, when you shoot sonething big and heavy from a standing or<BR>
> near-standing position, your spine can flex, your body being pushed<BR>
smoothly<BR>
> back (just be damn sure to hold the stock TIGHT against your shoulder and<BR>
> don't get your eyebrow too close to the scope).<BR>
> Well, it as the story goes, the farmer spotted a big, fat bull seal down<BR>
> the beach, but it was nowhere near any large rocks.  So Elmer Fudd the<BR>
> viking lowcrawls down to beach to a small bit of cover, gets into a prone<BR>
> position, and fires......<BR>
> ....after he regains consciousness.....<BR>
> He had never fired the gun from a prone position before.  The recoil,<BR>
> instead of pushing him back and almost over, went straight down the length<BR>
> of his body.  It wasn't mentioned if the shoulder and collarbone were<BR>
still<BR>
> intact, but you couldn't PAY me to take that shot.<BR>
> ObTrav (or ObGaming) - One GM told me that he used a penalty for<BR>
> high-recoiling guns.  A player, who's character was not really big on<BR>
> hardware, was required to take a shot with something obnoxiously huge with<BR>
a<BR>
> very high recoil penalty.  The player argued, and the GM accepted the<BR>
> arguement, that for the first shot (the particular situation only really<BR>
> required one shot, but it had to be a GOOD shot), his player should not be<BR>
> penalized because he has no idea what he is in for.  He's just going to<BR>
line<BR>
> up the sights and concentrate on trigger pull like he was taught and will<BR>
> not be flinching or anticipating the punishment he is about to receive.<BR>
If<BR>
> I were the GM and in a picky mood, I would probably drop most of the<BR>
> penalty, but not all, since while the character will not be anticipating<BR>
the<BR>
> recoil, but at the same time not doing all the little things one does to<BR>
> keep the recoil from knocking the weapon off target while the slug is<BR>
still<BR>
> in the bore.<BR>
><BR>
> Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:58:05 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Stopping power<BR>
<BR>
>From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav:  Fanatics, (provided by the Ine Givar?) with<BR>
>combat drugs and designer drugs tailored to anasthetize <BR>
>them and generate huge amounts of adrenaline, <BR>
>testosterone, and otherwise warp their mood state into <BR>
>extreme aggressiveness, would make formidable foes in <BR>
>guerilla raids on Imperium forces.  <BR>
<BR>
Well, not so formidable if the Imperials were wearing<BR>
battle dress.  That machete isn't going to do too much,<BR>
although a broadsword might.  Also, a human wave attack<BR>
will be difficult even for battle dress to stand up to;<BR>
they'll get knocked down and be subject to damage on the<BR>
ground.  Some of the attackers should carry explosives with<BR>
adhesive on one side to blow through the battle dress. <BR>
That will probably kill quite a few fanatics, too,<BR>
unfortunately.<BR>
<BR>
>What would be the weapon of choice for sentries on duty in<BR>
>zones where attacks occur?  Perhaps firing a tranq round <BR>
>with a chemical cocktail capable of defeating the <BR>
>attacker's own chemical cocktail?  Sounds too difficult.  <BR>
>A tranq round with a really nasty nerve agent?  A thud<BR>
gun?<BR>
<BR>
No, those seem to subtle and too uncertain. What if your<BR>
nerve agent causes a synergistic reaction with the<BR>
fanatic's drug cocktail, giving him even more strenght and<BR>
speed and even less fear?  He may die in a few minutes from<BR>
the combined drugs, but that may be a few minutes too late.<BR>
<BR>
I think I'd prefer a 9mm ACR with HE.  If I can blow his<BR>
legs off, he's not going to get close enough to kill me.  I<BR>
would say Auto GL with HE, but the attack may be at too<BR>
close range.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:58:47 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
At 11:48 -0400 29/6/00,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>"Just watch out for the rabbits if you are going outside"<BR>
>"Yeah, whatever"<BR>
>Moments later the door bursts open. PC with torn clothing, some blood, and a<BR>
>hunted look in his eyes.<BR>
>"Giant...Carnivorous...Rabbits!<BR>
<BR>
With Big, Pointy, Teeth....<BR>
<BR>
Tim the Enchanter<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:54:20 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RQ (was RE: Gun Loving PCs)<BR>
<BR>
At 13:46 -0400 29/6/00, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> >RQ3's not nearly as harsh.<BR>
> And RQ4 (aka Hero Wars; <www.glorantha.com>) doesn't worry about it at all,<BR>
>though it could be a side affect...<BR>
<BR>
It's actually possible that a RQ4 may appear from Avalon H^asbro^ill <BR>
who still have rights to the system, but it will not have any <BR>
Glorantha stuff as Chaosium -> Issaries Inc have the rights. Hero <BR>
Wars is radically different from RQ1/2/3....<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:51:37 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
<BR>
At 13:46 -0400 29/6/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>Erm.  That's our one Achilles' Heel.  The TNE system makes some different<BR>
>assumptions and uses strangely-shaped dice.  It would take so house rules,<BR>
>but you could do it.. I don't remember enough of TNE to feel comfortable<BR>
>attempting to write this up. Tell you what, if you do the <BR>
>conversion, we'll include it in the ACQ<BR>
>Companion, or whatever we end up calling the second book, which is starting<BR>
>to look like a necessity.<BR>
<BR>
We would certainly host any suggestions that worked at BITS. As to a <BR>
second book being a necessity, I think that it's more that people's <BR>
wish lists are getting longer and longer.... You all seem to want <BR>
more than we could squeeze into 56 pages...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2689<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2690</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 29 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2690<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: Crappy Military Units with Great PR<BR>
RE: Kipling<BR>
Re: Stopping power (long)<BR>
RE: BIG Guns<BR>
RE: Recoil<BR>
Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
Re: Roman Models and Slavery<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
Re: Re : The TML 2000 Landgrab<BR>
Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
Stupid Armor Question<BR>
Re: Re : The TML 2000 Landgrab<BR>
re:  Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:30:38 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
At 4:05 -0400 29/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>DDoes the UK have the torturous appeals process that the US does?<BR>
<BR>
To appeal to a higher court I seem to recall that you have to <BR>
convince the court that you have a good reason to.<BR>
<BR>
If I remember correctly there are three layers - County Court -> High <BR>
Court -> Law Lords - but this is ten years on from the brief course I <BR>
did on it.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm also curious about the roll/power of juries in the UK.  Do you have the<BR>
>equivalent of 'jury nullification'?<BR>
<BR>
Is that were the defendant's lawyer can object to certain jury <BR>
members? Or is it that a judge can rule a case too complex for a jury?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:24:06 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
<BR>
At 2:42 -0400 29/6/00, "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:<BR>
>On 28 Jun 00, at 20:19, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> > BUY _AT CLOSE QUARTERS_!  The Greatest Combat System For Traveller With<BR>
> > Penguins In It! --<BR>
>If the rumours of Warehouse23 having it are true I'll be buying it in<BR>
>due course. Hmm. One question - how easy is it to bolt onto TNE?<BR>
<BR>
They aren't rumours. Warehouse 23 has *all* the in print BITS <BR>
products including the recent releases ACQ (*search on At Close <BR>
Quarters not ACQ*) and 101 Patrons.<BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond is probably good at asking this as he was looking at it <BR>
after the UK Hebden Bridge Traveller Con.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:14:16 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
At 21:11 -0400 28/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>Hey, I'm working on it.  See "The Mercenary's Guide to Weapons"<BR>
<BR>
Grabbed for future browsing... you may like the Famille Spofulam PDF <BR>
at BITS. Loads of nasty designs for guns.<BR>
<BR>
>Accepting submissions, BTW.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but the only guns I do tend to be wrapped in about 10,000dT of <BR>
Superdense, along with an M-Drive and Fusion Plant.<BR>
<BR>
'There is no game but Classic Traveller(*), and High Guard(**) is its Product'<BR>
<BR>
(*)But to be honest, T4.1 is just a nice rewrite of this and my <BR>
preference, and ACQ is great fun... ;-)<BR>
(**) Second Edition<BR>
<BR>
Ooo! Heresy.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:10:17 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Crappy Military Units with Great PR<BR>
<BR>
At 21:11 -0400 28/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>Hey, I though all of their celebrated battles were defeats.  But Hollywood<BR>
>has surely been kind to the legion.  Personally, I like the SAS.  Not real<BR>
>showy, just go in and get the job done.<BR>
<BR>
The SBS is a hell of a lot more subtle. And lower profile.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:07:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Kipling<BR>
<BR>
>From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
><BR>
>On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, John Groth wrote:<BR>
>> ObTrav:  IMHO, Kipling is _always_ worthwhile, so no ObTrav is strictly<BR>
>> necessary.  However, there is always the adventure hook of the PCs being<BR>
>> hired for (or, in active duty campaigns, sent on) a Cadre ticket to a<BR>
>> lower-tech planet....<BR>
><BR>
>But would Freemasonry be involved?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	Actually, when I started the last Traveller campaign I ran, I had the<BR>
players watch "The Man Who Would Be King" to help set the atmosphere.<BR>
(though no Freemasonry was involved).<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:15:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Stopping power (long)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 1:41 AM, Laning at laning@wizard.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Personally, I'm a .45 booster, not 9mm.  Shotguns are usually even more<BR>
> preferable.  When it comes to battlefield rifles, well I feel the choices<BR>
<BR>
I like the .45, but think the 9mm is more than adequategivn modern<BR>
ammunition and the size you can build a 9mm (The Kahr 9 is a personal<BR>
favorite.  About the same size as a PPK and much more powerful.  The mini<BR>
Glocks are also cool, given the mag capacity, weight and size.  Now what I<BR>
want is a Kahr in .357 Sig.<BR>
<BR>
If I were limited to ball ammunition (as in the military) I would select the<BR>
.45 without hesitation.  No question of the superiority of .45 vs. 9mm when<BR>
non expanding ammo is used.<BR>
<BR>
In general,  I think the requirements of stopping power is overstated.  I<BR>
habitually carry an S&W 342 revolver with .38 special +P Glaser safety slugs<BR>
and feel more than adequately armed.  Were I really anticipating an immanent<BR>
gunfight, I would start carrying a rifle or shotgun in my car.<BR>
<BR>
> are less clear-cut, but would tend to favor an assault rifle in 7.62 NATO<BR>
> over one in 5.56 US or 5.56 NATO.  IMTU, the major mod to weapons is that<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I'd favor a 5.56 unless I thought there was an opportunity fir<BR>
sniping at ranges in excess of 500 meters.  Typical combat occurs at less<BR>
than 100 meters (60% of all rifle fire occurs at 75 meters or less, 90% at<BR>
less than 300 meters and virtually none at over 500 meters).  This is due to<BR>
several factors:  The inability to hit anything over 500 meters in combat<BR>
conditions (sure you can hit a 12" plate at 800 meters.  Can you do it with<BR>
someone shooting at you?); the use of intervening cover by the target and<BR>
the inability to SEE a target at over 500 meters (can shoot what you can't<BR>
see).  With a 5.56, the weapon and ammo is lighter, and the low recoil means<BR>
the weapon is easier to shoot accurately when fatigued or when firing<BR>
multiple volleys while maneuvering.  I'm a former infantryman, and thus<BR>
place a high premium on weight.  When your pack get up to 80 lbs, that light<BR>
little rifle looks really good, and almost twice the number of rounds for<BR>
the same weight, never a bad deal as the .223 is actually a better<BR>
stopper/killer than the .308.  This again assumes we are using BALL<BR>
ammunition.  If I can use hunting type soft points, the .308 is quite a<BR>
better killer, and I'd take my STG-58 (FN-FAL) over the AR every time.<BR>
<BR>
> gauss rifles tend to penetrate armor extremely well but not do as much<BR>
> damage to unarmored personnel as an ACR does.  If the gauss round has to<BR>
> penetrate significant armor first, and has energy left, it's all the worse<BR>
> for the target then.  To me, a gauss round hitting an unarmored person is<BR>
> like having a hot needle drill right them at speeds nearly good enough for<BR>
> spaceship battles.  Lots of energy, but most of it stays with the bullet.<BR>
> The bullet will also be so hot that there will be some cauterization of<BR>
the<BR>
> wound.<BR>
<BR>
Not very likely, but as you say, it's your TU.  More likely, the super high<BR>
velocity gauss round will 'shatter' muscle and pulp soft tissue, requiring<BR>
new techniques of wound care and debridement.  Perhaps our resident medico,<BR>
Robert would care to comment.  A good example is the effect that the .17<BR>
Remington produces when loaded up to near 4000 fps velocities.  One would<BR>
not expect much from a little 25 gn projectile.  I have shot coyote with<BR>
one, and the internal organ were absolutely pulped.  One had difficulty<BR>
telling the liver from, say the kidneys.<BR>
<BR>
And speaking of cauterizing, I have played in games where the laser drills a<BR>
nice neat bloodless hole.  I like to point out that real military lasers<BR>
with their high power are as likely to flash heat the liquid in tissue,<BR>
creating a steamed meat explosion.  I recall an experiment with a laser in<BR>
college physics (unsanctioned, mind you).  It involved shooting grapes with<BR>
IIRC a CO2 laser (I may be wrong, this was 20 yeas ago).  We did not drill<BR>
neat little holes in them.  They sizzled and then exploded (which we thought<BR>
was way cooler, as the beam was invisible to the naked eye (IR spectrum, I<BR>
think, but I'm sure someone on the list will correct me if I've got this<BR>
wrong).<BR>
<BR>
>Those are my personal feelings on the topic.  As we've seen, YMMV,<BR>
<BR>
I like you thoughts, though.  It's interesting to give the various weapons<BR>
unique characteristics.  Otherwise, everyone just carries the nastiest thing<BR>
allowed (Gauss rifle, PGMP, whatever). Fortunately, may players are not into<BR>
'gamesmanship', a pick their weapons based on their characters likes, even<BR>
if it is not the 'best' choice<BR>
<BR>
> and many intelligent people who very learned about these things have very<BR>
> passionate and very different feelings on the topic.<BR>
<BR>
Interesting.  IMTU I treat gauss rounds like high speed flechette.  As I<BR>
mentioned in a previous post, rounds that strike tissue at speeds in excess<BR>
of 1450 m/second (the speed of sound in tissue) do some really nasty<BR>
business.  Tissue starts to behave more like a solid and 'shatters'.<BR>
Further, flechettes at these velocities (and gauss rounds, presumably) tend<BR>
to hook and tumble at these velocities.  When speaking of energy<BR>
transmitted, it is worth noting that the rate of transfer is also important.<BR>
This rate of transfer is effected by the rate of retardation of the<BR>
projectile:<BR>
<BR>
retardation = ((shape constant)*(density)*(diameter)^2*v^2*f(v/a)}/M<BR>
<BR>
where f(v/a) is the drag coefficient and M is mass of the projectile.  This<BR>
means as the bullet tumbles or yaws, effective diameter increases,<BR>
increasing<BR>
retardation. And increases in velocity do the same thing.  Now if a gauss<BR>
rifle projectile is relatively long like a flechette (as they are IMTU),<BR>
both wound track and retardation are significantly increased.<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav:  Fanatics, (provided by the Ine Givar?) with combat drugs and<BR>
> designer drugs tailored to anesthetize them and generate huge amounts of<BR>
> adrenaline, testosterone, and otherwise warp their mood state into extreme<BR>
> aggressiveness, would make formidable foes in guerilla raids on Imperium<BR>
> forces.  What would be the weapon of choice for sentries on duty in zones<BR>
> where attacks occur?  Perhaps firing a tranq round with a chemical<BR>
cocktail<BR>
> capable of defeating the attacker's own chemical cocktail?  Sounds too<BR>
> difficult.  A tranq round with a really nasty nerve agent?  A thud gun?<BR>
><BR>
> --Laning<BR>
<BR>
The army in the Philippines fighting the Moros seemed to have the right<BR>
answer:  Shotguns.  Make them semi-autos with 12 gauge (18.5mm) soft lead<BR>
hollow point slugs.  Maybe even Sometime like Glasers or MagSafe.  IMTU the<BR>
ultimate weapon for dealing with up close nasties is the SURF gun.  See the<BR>
entry on http://weapons.travellercentral.com.  I saw the name and very<BR>
general description in Keith Laumer (can't remember the exact story) .<BR>
Something about "a thousand rounds from a police surf gun".  I just built<BR>
the rest.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose a flamethrower might work, but if the guy is fanatical enough,<BR>
then you have, literally, a 'flaming' psycho in your foxhole with you.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, IMTU there is a drug called 'frenzy'.  It is illegal, but sometimes<BR>
show up in the hands of fanatics, no sane person would use it.  Effects:<BR>
Increased strength and endurance (i.e. superhuman) , 2 stats to 0 before<BR>
unconsciousness, total immunity to pain.  The downside? after the effects<BR>
wear of in is almost invariably fatal to the user.  Useful, though, for<BR>
those "go out in a blaze of glory" types who are about to be killed anyway.<BR>
Just put an auto-injector into your DrugSleeve.  When it's time to 'party',<BR>
just slap the 'sleeve', feel the burn, and go for it.<BR>
<BR>
OK, time to end this.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "writing the great American novel" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- --<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:21:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: BIG Guns<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
><BR>
<snippage><BR>
><BR>
>> BTW, there are rumors of a 105 somewhee in the West hills. :-)<BR>
><BR>
>And there's the live Naval gun in some industrial par over in Vancouver.<BR>
>Everyone just assumes it was 'demilled'. Good view of the city, too.  You<BR>
>could take out out anythying.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	I heard a story that could be apocryphal, but the story goes that some<BR>
utility workers somewhere in the central coast of Calif found this wire that<BR>
no one could identify.  Since it was in the way of whatever they were trying<BR>
to do, they cut it.  At several places around town, these hidden costal<BR>
defense artillery batteries pop up out of their emplacements  (might have<BR>
been triple-A, the tale-teller was fuzzy on the details).  Seems they were<BR>
left over from WWII and had been completely forgotten about.  Pretty amusing<BR>
picture, that:  imagine J. Average Homeowner out watering his lawn one<BR>
Saturday morning when that big concrete dome on the slope right behind his<BR>
house opens up and he is starting down the barrel of a 12" gun.<BR>
	ObTrav:  Any referee that can't come up with about a half-dozen scenarios<BR>
for this should turn in their dice.  :)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:23:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Recoil<BR>
<BR>
> 	I've got a "for what it's worth" recoil story:  Years ago I<BR>
> spent a year in<BR>
> Iceland (not in the service, I was working for the University), and one of<BR>
> my coworkers had a friend (yep...'friend of a friend' story here :) who<BR>
> lived up on the north coast.  It seems this guy did a bit of seal hunting<BR>
> for fun.  He would set up behind a nice, large rock with what was reported<BR>
> to me to be an ancient 4-bore shotgun ( ! ).  I doubt that anyone makes<BR>
> modern slugs for this thing, so he was probably shooting the old 'pumpkin<BR>
> balls' - in this case, a 1/4 POUND of lead.  For those list members who<BR>
<BR>
Reminds me of Gibb's 2 bore double rifle.  Fired 4 oz hollow lead balls<BR>
filled with 4 oz of blasting powder (1/2 POUND BULLET).  I forget how many<BR>
drams of black powder were required to send this beast on it's way.  In 19th<BR>
century Africa, this was a short range elephant stopper.  In late 20th<BR>
century, we consider this a grenade launcher.  They made 'em tougher back<BR>
then.<BR>
<BR>
Any Capstick fans here on the TML?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:45:14 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
<BR>
>* The pre-starflight era<BR>
>Vland's native biochemistry is different from Terra's, enough to prevent<BR>
>the spread of viral diseases between native and transplanted life.<BR>
>      Initially, the incidence of bacterial infectious disease was very<BR>
>rare ; over the millennia, pathogens derived from the commensals the<BR>
>Vilani brought with them, as well as some hardy Vland natives, arose.<BR>
<BR>
Not millennia.  Bacteria evolve very<BR>
fast.  They have already rendered antibiotics that were major<BR>
problems for them useless (in decades).  I would centuries at<BR>
most...<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:49:13 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
<BR>
"Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>I thought I'd take a crack at creating a concensus statement before the<BR>
'Vilani bioscience' thread degenerated.<<<BR>
[snip of another masterful medical post by R.O'C., gentleman, medico and<BR>
gamer]<BR>
<BR>
I want to apologize if it seemed like I was restarting a flamewar. I had<BR>
some questions about the Vilani interaction with the Terrans, but looking<BR>
back at some of my posts I may have seemed a little argumentative. Again, I<BR>
apologize.<BR>
<BR>
FWIW, I'm still not convinced that the Terrans ever used bioweapons,<BR>
although they clearly had the capability. Terran diseases were so deadly to<BR>
the Vilani that they may have just assumed that the Terrans were, and were<BR>
even more brutal than usual. The Terrans, not accustomed to Vilani<BR>
aggressiveness anyway, might have assumed that the Vilani were attempting to<BR>
exterminate them and thus found the transition to all-out war easier to make<BR>
than it might normally have been. On such things history turns...<BR>
<BR>
Similarly, the relative immunity of the Terrans to the plagues wracking the<BR>
Vilani might have been that crucial element that transformed the necessary<BR>
superpatriotism of combatants locked in a life-or-death struggle to the myth<BR>
of racial supremacy that survives to the 3I...<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, my last words on the subject. I'm going on vacation tomorrow with<BR>
the vague promise of gaming in the air....<BR>
<BR>
Fred "Beater of Dead Horses" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:04:38 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Some people actually like to live in places like New York.<BR>
<BR>
It seems to be a genetic condition :)<BR>
<BR>
If you live in NYC, you basically have to *really* want to. Very few<BR>
Manhattanites are actually born there (that's just an accident of birth.)<BR>
Most flee to the suburbs.<BR>
<BR>
Me, on the other hand, knew that I wanted to live in New York from at least<BR>
junior high on. I grew up on Long Island (where they invented modern<BR>
suburbia [Levittown, though I didn't live there.]) When people talk about<BR>
the Island to me, I tell them "I went over the wall years ago and they ain't<BR>
getting me back alive."<BR>
<BR>
Fred "New York, New York" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:59:03 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Roman Models and Slavery<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>>Also, I know the Imperium is against slavery. But is it allowable to<BR>
*sell* yourself into to "slavery" via a contract? How about one that<BR>
places limits on what you can or can't be made to do? Would that be<BR>
illegal? <<<BR>
<BR>
Using the US 13th Amendment as a model, no. The Supreme Court has ruled that<BR>
you cannot voluntarily sign away your freedom. I'm inclined to believe the<BR>
3I does the same (else the ban on slavery would be unenforcable: "These<BR>
guys? Yah, they signed away their freedom, got the papers right here...")<BR>
<BR>
There are a lot of Roman customs that you *can* bring into the 3I. One is<BR>
the attitude towards the politcal system. The Romans made explicit the<BR>
connection between wealth and power; their Senate was *literally* a<BR>
millionaire's club. If you had questioned a Roman about it, he would have<BR>
pointed out that in 'democracies' the rich inevitably took over anyway, and<BR>
at least in the Roman system you had to prove yourself in a number of jobs<BR>
(including commanding the military) before you could command the more<BR>
powerful jobs. (ObTrav: the high amount of nobles in the Armed Services.)<BR>
<BR>
Roman morals also assumed that if you were rich, you gave it back to the<BR>
public...in a sort of 'conspicuous consumption' of public works. Most of<BR>
Rome's famous 'public' buildings were built by private individuals, using<BR>
their own wealth. Julius Caesar won the mobs of Rome by holding expensive<BR>
public games and festivals, at his own expense...ISTR he was seriously in<BR>
debt by the time he got to Gaul. (ObTrav: Nobles endowing charities,<BR>
chartering scientific research, and building public works, rather than the<BR>
Imperial government being the primary source of this...also, a different<BR>
attitude towards wealth than that of American CEOs :)<BR>
<BR>
Fred "Moritiuri te salutant!" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:11:27 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)Subject: <BR>
<BR>
>Yeah, he mostly just got knocked down. He had a *very*<BR>
>thick skull. (So thick that I'm told he survived at atempt<BR>
<BR>
>to blow his own brains out with a pistol some years later)<BR>
<BR>
I guess so!<BR>
<BR>
>So months later a neighbor let him know that the wounded<BR>
>guy had been living on the other side of the block. There <BR>
>were mentions of *lots* of blood soaked towels...I kind <BR>
>wonder if he was bright enough to go to the ER before he<BR>
>got a nasty infection or some such. <BR>
>My friend mostly griped about them getting away, and about<BR>
>having to repolish the blade, because it'd gotten blood on<BR>
<BR>
>it.  <BR>
<BR>
Were the burglars ever caught and prosecuted?  <BR>
<BR>
>I can easily see him as a PC. <BR>
<BR>
Ditto.  Thanks for sharing a great story.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:29:25 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
MT Stats for Space Opera Stuff?<BR>
Can I please have a copy...grovel..plead...beg<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:20:24 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:01:29 -0400 (EDT), "Robert O'Connor"<BR>
<robocon@ozemail.com.au> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I thought I'd take a crack at creating a concensus statement before the<BR>
>'Vilani bioscience' thread degenerated.<BR>
<BR>
Robert, please post this to Traveller-Culture if you haven't<BR>
already; it's certainly appropriate for the growing collection of<BR>
material there.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:29:50 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On 06/28/00 at 09:34 AM,  Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >My mistake that the Terrans did indeed dispatch sleeper ships, although<BR>
> >not with the intent of establishing an empire as far as I can tell. The<BR>
> >Vilani sleeper ships went to very nearby planets with the intent of<BR>
> >creating a local sublight trading empire. The Terran ships were<BR>
> >apparently very long range (to the Marches from terra by sublight? Wow)<BR>
> >settlement missions with a goal I'm not sure I really understand.<BR>
> <BR>
> IMO, self-preservation.  The Terrans, secretly knowing there was an empire out there, sent developed and sent sleeper ships out to colonize worlds in remote locations just in case. Once sent it would have been very hard to recall them, and the sleeper ships might have had orders not to pay attention to recalls.<BR>
<BR>
Unless, of course, the message was preceded by the correct three letter<BR>
code group.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
"Peace on Earth, Purity of Essence."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:31:05 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : The TML 2000 Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> I now claim Sting/Sword Worlds.<BR>
<BR>
At the risk of sounding *profoundly* ignorant, what *is*<BR>
"The TML 200 Landgrab" ?<BR>
                                             - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:44:43 -0600 (MDT)<BR>
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
<BR>
Heheh,<BR>
<BR>
southern New Mexico, yes. We're over a mile up, and far closer to<BR>
Colorado in appearance. 'Sides, I like seeing the bones of the earth<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
- -merrick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:43:58 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
"John P. Raynor" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, John Groth wrote:<BR>
> > ObTrav:  IMHO, Kipling is _always_ worthwhile, so no ObTrav is strictly<BR>
> > necessary.  However, there is always the adventure hook of the PCs being<BR>
> > hired for (or, in active duty campaigns, sent on) a Cadre ticket to a<BR>
> > lower-tech planet....<BR>
> <BR>
> But would Freemasonry be involved?<BR>
> <BR>
I'm sorry, Citizen, that information is _not_ available.  Please report<BR>
to the food vats for processing.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:44:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Stupid Armor Question<BR>
<BR>
As I've mentioned before, I've been trying to figure out the masses of<BR>
starships created using the "Book 5: High Guard" design system, as a<BR>
necessary first step towards adding reasonably realistic rules for<BR>
reaction drives.  After playing around with the "T4" edition of "Fire,<BR>
Fusion, and Steel," it occurred to me that the mass (and, to a slightly<BR>
lesser degree, the volume) of an "unarmored" ship's bare hull and internal<BR>
structure isn't really negligible.  Reluctantly, I've decided to bid<BR>
farewell to easy compatibility with the rest of the universe, and work out<BR>
an ugly hybrid system to handle bare hulls (using "Fire, Fusion, and<BR>
Steel" for configurations, dimensions, surface area, volume, and mass, and<BR>
"High Guard" for the price).  I have, however, reached another road-block:<BR>
how thick should the hull of an "unarmored" starship be?<BR>
<BR>
I found a document entitled "[Traveller Answer] Armor Values" at <BR>
"http://stats.mu.org/~joe/traveller/answers/answer2.html" that sheds some<BR>
light on this problem, but also confuses me.  At the beginning of this<BR>
document lies a table with three columns, equating "High Guard" armor<BR>
values with those of "Striker," and with thicknesses of "steel," measured<BR>
in centimeters.  According to the first row in this table, a "High Guard"<BR>
starship with no extra armor would have a "Striker" armor value of 40, or<BR>
a hull whose resistance to penetration is equal to that of 33.6<BR>
centimeters of steel.<BR>
<BR>
This *would* be all I need, but for something *else* stated in this<BR>
document, slightly further one: "The Standard Ship Design System...uses <BR>
an 'armor level' or 'armor value' for the hull that is chosen when the<BR>
hull is designed...Although it is not described in the SSDS design<BR>
sequence, this 'armor level' is the armor's equivalent in centimeters of<BR>
hard steel."  The document then goes on to say "This value is also the<BR>
same as the _Fire, Fusion, and Steel_ armor value, which was expressed in<BR>
equivalent cm of hard steel."<BR>
<BR>
This second passage is the source of my confusion.  I turned to the bottom<BR>
of the second column on page 64 of my copy of the "T4" edition of "Fire,<BR>
Fusion, and Steel" and read that "To determine how thick the hull needs to<BR>
be, based on a desired armor rating, divide the armor rating by the<BR>
material toughness.  This gives you a hull thickness in cm."  I am<BR>
*assuming* that the "armor rating" mentioned here is the same thing as the<BR>
"armor value" mentioned in the document entitled "[Traveller Answer] Armor <BR>
Values." The problem is that according to "Table 158: Hull Materials", on<BR>
page 101 of "Fire, Fusion, and Steel," the material toughness of ordinary<BR>
Tech Level 5 "hard steel" is 2.86, not 1.00.<BR>
<BR>
So, here's the question, in a nut-shell:<BR>
Suppose I'm trying to design a small unarmored civilian vessel.  <BR>
According to the table in the document entitled "[Traveller Answer] Armor<BR>
Values," its hull would have a "Striker" armor value of 40, or the<BR>
penetration resistance of 33.6 centimeters of hard steel.  Multiplying<BR>
33.6 by 2.86 (the toughness of "hard steel") yields a "Fire, Fusion, and<BR>
Steel" armor rating of 114.4.  If we assume that this vessel's hull is<BR>
made of crystaliron (with a toughness of 11.4 per centimeter of<BR>
thickness), then its hull ought to be 10.035 centimeters thick (which<BR>
seems a bit on the chunky side for an unarmored civilian vessel, but not<BR>
unbearably so). Everything *seems* to make sense, *except* for that line<BR>
about "Fire, Fusion and Steel" armor rating being the equivalent to<BR>
centimeters of hard steel.  Do I have it right, or am I completely<BR>
misreading something?<BR>
<BR>
                                                             - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:46:05 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : The TML 2000 Landgrab<BR>
<BR>
"John P. Raynor" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I now claim Sting/Sword Worlds.<BR>
> <BR>
> At the risk of sounding *profoundly* ignorant, what *is*<BR>
> "The TML 200 Landgrab" ?<BR>
>                                              - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
See:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.downport.com/landgrab/index.html<BR>
<BR>
for details.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:56:22 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>The head of the family had the power of life and death<BR>
>over his children. *Forever*.That is, if he decided you <BR>
>were a disgrace to the house, and your were 50 years old,<BR>
>he could still have you killed *legally*. <BR>
>I'm wondering how this would play on a world in the<BR>
>Imperium (and trust me, with that many worlds, *somebody* <BR>
>is bound to try re-creating Rome!).  Would they consider<BR>
>it a "local law", or would they decide it amounted<BR>
>to some sort of slavery? <BR>
<BR>
It's a matter of local law.  I see the prohibition on<BR>
slavery as being based on:  (1) it's bad for business<BR>
(paying wages is much better for interstellar trade); (2)<BR>
interstellar traffic in slaves is intrinsically<BR>
destabilizing and is a breach of the peace of the realm<BR>
(think of how slaves are likely to be acquired)<BR>
(accordingly, local ownership of slaves is forbidden as<BR>
encouraging interstellar traffic); and (3) during the Long<BR>
Night, slavery was relatively common, and during early<BR>
Imperial times, the Imperium encouraged and assisted slave<BR>
revolts to get new member worlds.  So the right to kill or<BR>
otherwise abuse a _family_ member does not implicate any of<BR>
these concerns.  <BR>
<BR>
>Though it'd get *real* interesting if the Pater Familias <BR>
>decided that a son (or grandson) needed to be killed and <BR>
>they were offworld. Would he have to get them extradited?<BR>
>Would the world they were on extradite them?<BR>
<BR>
It depends on the treaty relationship between the worlds. <BR>
Not every Imperial world grants extradition to every other,<BR>
and even extradition may not be granted in every case.  <BR>
<BR>
>Also, I know the Imperium is against slavery. But is it <BR>
>allowable to *sell* yourself into to "slavery" via a <BR>
>contract? How about one that places limits on what you can<BR>
>or can't be made to do? Would that beillegal? <BR>
<BR>
No, it's contrary to the Imperial edict outlawing slavery.<BR>
Slavery is the ownership of another sophont as an item of<BR>
chattel, or any relationship characterized by the badges<BR>
and incidents of slavery (if I may paraphrase a document<BR>
familiar to all).  Any situation that results in slavery is<BR>
contrary to Imperial law, is unenforceable, and subjects<BR>
the slave owner and any aiders, abettors, or conspirators<BR>
to Imperial high justice criminal penalties.  <BR>
<BR>
Mongo's famous love slave clubs do not violate this edict<BR>
because it is well recognized that the relationship between<BR>
club member and club staff involves role-playing, not<BR>
actual ownership.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2690<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2691</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 29 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2691<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: RQ (was RE: Gun Loving PCs)<BR>
Re : Drug Drug <BR>
Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
re: Stupid Armor Question<BR>
re:  I am a Heretic...<BR>
Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
Re: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
New Traveller Site<BR>
Re: Exploration and stuff<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
Re : Stopping Power<BR>
Re: Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
Re: ancient water-cooled MGs<BR>
RE: Recoil<BR>
Re: Stopping power (long)<BR>
RE Point-blank<BR>
RE: Recoil<BR>
Re: Point-blank<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
Re: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
Re: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:59:23 -0400<BR>
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com<BR>
Subject: Re: RQ (was RE: Gun Loving PCs)<BR>
<BR>
GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>  And RQ4 (aka Hero Wars; ) doesn't worry about it at all, <BR>
> though it could be a side affect...<BR>
<BR>
     Calling Hero Wars RQ4 is greatly misrepresenting the matter.  Despite sharing the same world-setting (Glorantha), RQ and Hero Wars have opposite design philosophies and are thoroughly incompatible (RQ = very detail oriented, kinda like Traveller; Hero Wars = extremely abstract and free-form, sort of a cross between Pendragon and 'Amber').  <BR>
     It's worth noting that Greg Stafford (creator of Glorantha, founder of Chaosium) didn't actually design either game -- RQ was written by Steve Perrin and Ray Turney, with a lot of later work by Sandy Petersen; Hero Wars was written by Robin Laws (who, apparently, has spent way too much time watching 'The A-Team' and 'Walker: Texas Ranger' on tv).<BR>
     Before being absorbed by Hasbro, Avalon Hill were supposedly working on their own version of RQ4.  From what I've heard, though, it was essentially a whole different game riding on the familiar name.  There are also variant RQs by all of the original designers (Perrin, Turney, Petersen) and parts of an almost-published RQ4 draft from the early 90s floating around for free on the net, but I highly doubt any of them will ever be published.  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Trent<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  And you thought GURPS was different from CT!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:20:01 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re : Drug Drug <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
<BR>
>Wireheading is a more certain way of getting your kicks - <BR>
>you regard thebrain as a collection of 'black boxes' and<BR>
>stimulate a region you knowis going to work, in everyone. <BR>
>You could wire other centres too ; the regions of the <BR>
>hypothalamus dealing with temperature regulation, <BR>
>appetite, sex drive ; the pain suppression centres in the <BR>
>periaqueductal gray matter and thalamus...<BR>
><BR>
>Ob Trav : Advanced medical techniques offer some scary<BR>
>possibilities to repressive societies.<BR>
<BR>
- -- not to mention hedonistic societies.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:44:56 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
"Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> MT Stats for Space Opera Stuff?<BR>
> Can I please have a copy...grovel..plead...beg<BR>
<BR>
Agreed, I'd love to see them also.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:43:44 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Stupid Armor Question<BR>
<BR>
At 17:56 -0400 29/6/00, owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com <BR>
(Traveller-diges wrote:<BR>
>I found a document entitled "[Traveller Answer] Armor Values" at<BR>
>"http://stats.mu.org/~joe/traveller/answers/answer2.html" that sheds some<BR>
>light on this problem, but also confuses me.  At the beginning of this<BR>
>document lies a table with three columns, equating "High Guard" armor<BR>
>values with those of "Striker," and with thicknesses of "steel," measured<BR>
>in centimeters.  According to the first row in this table, a "High Guard"<BR>
>starship with no extra armor would have a "Striker" armor value of 40, or<BR>
>a hull whose resistance to penetration is equal to that of 33.6<BR>
>centimeters of steel.<BR>
<BR>
You may want to look at the conversion from HG to T4 FFS stats on my <BR>
website, produced by Rob Eaglestone. It's on the Traveller pages at <BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/<BR>
<BR>
You should also consider having at look at the ct-starships list at eGroups.<BR>
<BR>
Good Luck!<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:49:02 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Patrick Tyrrell" <Ptyrrell@orrick.com><BR>
<BR>
>I have been Lurking on this list for the last couple of<BR>
>weeks.  After reviewing the discussions I have come to the<BR>
<BR>
>conclusion that I have seriously deviated from the norm. <BR>
>I am using MegaTraveller rules with the addition of a<BR>
>variety of elements from a game called Space Opera and a<BR>
>game called Gamma World.  <BR>
><BR>
>My question is, is anyone else on the list running a<BR>
>similar type game?<BR>
<BR>
Not only is nobody on the list running a similar game, no<BR>
one would even conceive of running a similar game.  You are<BR>
obviously in need of immediate and serious help.  Please<BR>
report to SolSec for an evaluation and re-education. <BR>
SolSec will send you to the Tavrchedl' for a more thorough<BR>
analysis and behavior modification.<BR>
<BR>
You poor demented fellow.  Well, at least your future is<BR>
bright.  You have accepted that you are not well, and that<BR>
is the critical first step.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 02:03:40 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Katharine Whitchurch <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 1:22 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> We probably could pull this ob-Trav, but it's going into a Gun Control<BR>
> argument, so lets change the topic instead ... anybody got any suggestions<BR>
> for the next Famile Spofulam design ?<BR>
> <BR>
Considering the other sub-threads of this gun-weave, maybe a new kind of Body Pistol with enough punch to satisfy the gun-craziest of merc characters.<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:37:55 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "SD Mooney" <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Cc: <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 8:24 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 2:42 -0400 29/6/00, "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:<BR>
> >On 28 Jun 00, at 20:19, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> > > BUY _AT CLOSE QUARTERS_!  The Greatest Combat System For Traveller<BR>
With<BR>
> > > Penguins In It! --<BR>
> >If the rumours of Warehouse23 having it are true I'll be buying it in<BR>
> >due course. Hmm. One question - how easy is it to bolt onto TNE?<BR>
><BR>
> They aren't rumours. Warehouse 23 has *all* the in print BITS<BR>
> products including the recent releases ACQ (*search on At Close<BR>
> Quarters not ACQ*) and 101 Patrons.<BR>
><BR>
> Matt Bond is probably good at asking this as he was looking at it<BR>
> after the UK Hebden Bridge Traveller Con.<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
<BR>
Yup, though unfortunately real life commitments are greatly intruding into<BR>
my 'let's tinker with Traveller' time...<BR>
<BR>
The said, in a few weeks I'm going to be running a TNE campaign for my new<BR>
FtF RPG group (After we finish the Golden Heroes game I'm running...)<BR>
<BR>
The main difficulties in using ACQ for TNE are that the latter uses hit<BR>
locations with different hit capacities, and the stats for weapons and<BR>
armour are different to those in ACQ (Damage, Penetration, Armour values<BR>
etc). Also, the task difficulties are much more grainy than any other<BR>
version. A +1 difficulty halves your chance, compared to adding a die, or a<BR>
small DM.<BR>
<BR>
I'll try and set some time aside this weekend to have another look at the<BR>
subject...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
(BTW, thanks for reminding me Dom <g>)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:10:01 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: "Patrick Tyrrell" <Ptyrrell@orrick.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >I have been Lurking on this list for the last couple of<BR>
> >weeks.  After reviewing the discussions I have come to the<BR>
> <BR>
> >conclusion that I have seriously deviated from the norm.<BR>
> >I am using MegaTraveller rules with the addition of a<BR>
> >variety of elements from a game called Space Opera and a<BR>
> >game called Gamma World.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >My question is, is anyone else on the list running a<BR>
> >similar type game?<BR>
> <BR>
> Not only is nobody on the list running a similar game, no<BR>
> one would even conceive of running a similar game.  You are<BR>
> obviously in need of immediate and serious help.  Please<BR>
> report to SolSec for an evaluation and re-education.<BR>
> SolSec will send you to the Tavrchedl' for a more thorough<BR>
> analysis and behavior modification.<BR>
> <BR>
> You poor demented fellow.  Well, at least your future is<BR>
> bright.  You have accepted that you are not well, and that<BR>
> is the critical first step.<BR>
<BR>
Also, as a newcomer to the list, you must write an essay (at least 1,000<BR>
words) comparing and contrasting SolSec and Tavrchedl' reeducation<BR>
techniques.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:11:42 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
Jussi Kenkkil wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: Katharine Whitchurch <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 1:22 AM<BR>
> Subject: Re: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
> <BR>
> > We probably could pull this ob-Trav, but it's going into a Gun Control<BR>
> > argument, so lets change the topic instead ... anybody got any suggestions<BR>
> > for the next Famile Spofulam design ?<BR>
> ><BR>
> Considering the other sub-threads of this gun-weave, maybe a new kind of Body Pistol with enough punch to satisfy the gun-craziest of merc characters.<BR>
<BR>
A worthy endeavor, but how do you mask californium rounds from weapons<BR>
detectors?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:19:46 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Billye Gilbert <idrea_starryeyes@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: New Traveller Site<BR>
<BR>
I like to annouce my web site devoted to TRAVELLER.<BR>
I've laid out a lot of pages for lot of different<BR>
topics, and even though there is not a lot on them at<BR>
the moment, I truely hope that in time that will<BR>
change. The URL you ask?<BR>
<BR>
http://idreeian.homestead.com<BR>
<BR>
I truely hope everyone likes it. Hope to see you soon.<BR>
<BR>
Billye aka<BR>
Idreea StarryEyes<BR>
<BR>
idrea_starryeyes@yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:16:19 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Exploration and stuff<BR>
<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> Subject: Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
><BR>
> This was in the 1300s. If they'd kept going *they* would have reached<BR>
> Europe in much the same way that the Portuguese reached India and China<BR>
> 200 years later. And with equally devastating results for the<BR>
> "contacted" cultures.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Historical note : the first direct, seagoing European contacts with India<BR>
and China happened in the 16th century (ok, ok 1498). The European conquest<BR>
of China and India happened 150-200 years later than that.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, you needed a bunch of developments in technology and technique<BR>
until the Europeans were able to ride roughshod over any other culture.<BR>
<BR>
There is a great story about when the Portuguese turned up in India, there<BR>
was abuse from the quayside from Arab merchants - "Go home. Stop making<BR>
trouble here". In Castillan.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and the locals were damned unimpressed with the junk being presented as<BR>
gifts, too ;)<BR>
<BR>
> But the bureaucracies convinced the Emperor that China didn't need to<BR>
> waste time on this or contact "barbarians". So the fleet was destroyed.<BR>
><BR>
> And a few hundred years later China was *forced* to deal with the<BR>
> barbarians.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Somehow, I think the Turks were a bigger shock for 14th-17th century Europe<BR>
than the Chinese could ever have been. The odds would have been the Chinese<BR>
would have got bogged down against the Arabs.<BR>
<BR>
> As I write this, I note that it's uncomfortably close to what the US<BR>
> did after we landed on the moon. Right down to political manuevering<BR>
> with charges of wasted money, and more urgent problems at home.<BR>
<BR>
Sort of. Just like in the age of exploration, effort has followed the hope<BR>
of gain. Lots of comsats, not a lot of glory hounding.<BR>
<BR>
How many years was it between Van Dieman and Cook ?<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:29:49 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 9:13, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 03:29 PM 6/29/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> >On 28 Jun 00, at 20:19, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> BUY _AT CLOSE QUARTERS_!  The Greatest Combat System For Traveller With<BR>
> >> Penguins In It! -- <BR>
> ><BR>
> >If the rumours of Warehouse23 having it are true I'll be buying it in due<BR>
> >course. Hmm. One question - how easy is it to bolt onto TNE?<BR>
> <BR>
> Erm.  That's our one Achilles' Heel.  The TNE system makes some different<BR>
> assumptions and uses strangely-shaped dice.  It would take so house rules,<BR>
> but you could do it.. I don't remember enough of TNE to feel comfortable<BR>
> attempting to write this up.<BR>
> <BR>
> Tell you what, if you do the conversion, we'll include it in the ACQ<BR>
> Companion, or whatever we end up calling the second book, which is<BR>
> starting to look like a necessity.<BR>
<BR>
What an excellent idea. Now I have an excuse to browbeat my players <BR>
into a Traveller game.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:29:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re : Stopping Power<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 23:16, Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Laning wrote :-<BR>
> > ObTrav:  Fanatics, (provided by the Ine Givar?) with combat drugs and<BR>
> > designer drugs tailored to anasthetize them and generate huge amounts of<BR>
> > adrenaline, testosterone, and otherwise warp their mood state into<BR>
> > extreme aggressiveness, would make formidable foes in guerilla raids on<BR>
> > Imperium forces.<BR>
> <BR>
> Psychotics aren't particularly effective combatants, though they could be<BR>
> useful in short-lived terror actions such as you suggest in your post.<BR>
>      As has been noted in recent traffic (the unarmed combat<BR>
> discussions), a level head (or a good approximation thereof) is required<BR>
> in combat and other stress situations.<BR>
<BR>
Actually they'd make piss-poor guerillas, unless used only for suicide <BR>
attacks, because they'd lack the good judgement to cut and run when <BR>
things went bad.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:29:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 9:37, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If you ever want to get yourself paranoid about medications, read the PDR<BR>
> (Physician's Desk Reference) description of side effects.  And NO drug is<BR>
> without them.  Heck, peanuts will kill you if have an alergy.<BR>
<BR>
It's always fun pointing out to people just what could happen if they <BR>
OD on all that paracetamol they're swilling down (especially after <BR>
they've just told how bad your asprin is for you). IIRC it's the common <BR>
legal drug to OD on in New Zealand, thanks to all the Panadol ads <BR>
telling us how safe it is.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:29:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: ancient water-cooled MGs<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 9:03, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm told the CIA kept VERY careful track of these, since the didn't want<BR>
> any of them save for later use against commercial airliners.  And I<BR>
> believe the one in question predated the Afgani war. I suppose it's<BR>
> possible.<BR>
<BR>
And I seem to remember a figure of 90% going "Missing" from the first <BR>
shipment, but I have no source. IIRC the improved model was coming out, <BR>
so the Powers That Be weren't too concerned. This is because the main <BR>
worry was the soviets getting their mits on modern US IS seeker <BR>
technology. After all there were plenty of other older man-portable <BR>
SAMs around that'd do for putting down airliners. I don't imagine even <BR>
an old SA-7 Grail having too much trouble getting a lock on a 747.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:29:49 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Recoil<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 11:09, Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
>If I were the GM and in a picky mood, I would probably drop most<BR>
> of the penalty, but not all, since while the character will not be<BR>
> anticipating the recoil, but at the same time not doing all the little<BR>
> things one does to keep the recoil from knocking the weapon off target<BR>
> while the slug is still in the bore.<BR>
<BR>
To the best of my knowledge there's very little recoil can do to make <BR>
you miss by moving the weapon before the bullet leaves the barrel. <BR>
Certainly nothing that a non-benchrester would notice.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:29:49 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Stopping power (long)<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 13:15, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Personally, I'd favor a 5.56 unless I thought there was an opportunity fir<BR>
> sniping at ranges in excess of 500 meters.  Typical combat occurs at less<BR>
> than 100 meters (60% of all rifle fire occurs at 75 meters or less, 90% at<BR>
> less than 300 meters and virtually none at over 500 meters).  This is due<BR>
> to several factors:  The inability to hit anything over 500 meters in<BR>
> combat conditions (sure you can hit a 12" plate at 800 meters.  Can you do<BR>
> it with someone shooting at you?); the use of intervening cover by the<BR>
> target and the inability to SEE a target at over 500 meters (can shoot<BR>
> what you can't see).  With a 5.56, the weapon and ammo is lighter, and the<BR>
> low recoil means the weapon is easier to shoot accurately when fatigued or<BR>
> when firing multiple volleys while maneuvering.  I'm a former infantryman,<BR>
> and thus place a high premium on weight.  When your pack get up to 80 lbs,<BR>
> that light little rifle looks really good, and almost twice the number of<BR>
> rounds for the same weight, never a bad deal as the .223 is actually a<BR>
> better stopper/killer than the .308.  This again assumes we are using BALL<BR>
> ammunition.  If I can use hunting type soft points, the .308 is quite a<BR>
> better killer, and I'd take my STG-58 (FN-FAL) over the AR every time.<BR>
<BR>
I'd be quite happy with an M16, but would prefer an AKM-47. Not <BR>
terribly accurate, but adequate for shorter ranges and they don't <BR>
break. Besides those soft iron cores penetrate rediculously well. When <BR>
it really comes down to it though, I'd want an FN MINIMI, and lots of <BR>
ammo, of course.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I like you thoughts, though.  It's interesting to give the various weapons<BR>
> unique characteristics.  Otherwise, everyone just carries the nastiest<BR>
> thing allowed (Gauss rifle, PGMP, whatever). Fortunately, may players are<BR>
> not into 'gamesmanship', a pick their weapons based on their characters<BR>
> likes, even if it is not the 'best' choice<BR>
<BR>
It's what I like about TNE - lasers are a specialist tool for wasting <BR>
low tech enemies, whereas for shooting your contempories you want a <BR>
gauss rifle, GL launcher or Plasma gun (using the errata, of course). <BR>
MT's lasers were just too good.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:29:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE Point-blank<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 12:05, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Pedro Lopez writes:<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> >According to the rules in TNE, there is no difference when you shoot at =<BR>
> >a target thats 2 or 30 meters away from you as long its within close =<BR>
> >range.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> >Any suggestions for point blank rules?<BR>
> <BR>
>  CT?<BR>
<BR>
That'd be the rules set that says that you're an idiot to use anything <BR>
but a broadsword at close or short range?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:29:49 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Recoil<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 13:23, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Any Capstick fans here on the TML?<BR>
<BR>
Yes indeed.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:29:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Point-blank<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 9:22, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 05:42 PM 6/29/2000 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
> >Standing five meters away from my enemy, shooting at him three<BR>
> >times...and<BR>
> hit nothing. That happens often when I play TNE. <BR>
> ><BR>
> >According to the rules in TNE, there is no difference when you shoot at a<BR>
> target thats 2 or 30 meters away from you as long its within close range.<BR>
> > >Does anybody have an idea to a point blank-rule, that makes it easier<BR>
> to hit your target, when its right in front of you? I suggest having your<BR>
> strength or agility defining the point blank-range where the difficulty<BR>
> level is better than usual. <BR>
<BR>
I've never had a problem with this. In RL the hit rate for short range <BR>
gunfights is horrendously low, so TNE's use of Difficult for this seems <BR>
generous, even when you knock it up to Formidible for poor lighting. <BR>
Besides, there's an answer - full auto, and lots of it.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:29:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 9:06, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Experience has shown that the majority of shots made in combat are Quick<BR>
> Shots, which cost less AP but have an increased difficulty.  You don't get<BR>
> many increased damage hits with those types of attacks. --<BR>
<BR>
Looks like I'll have to roll out a Shadowrun character I once had for <BR>
my personal play-testing. She had a big pistol and a very high <BR>
initiative and I found the optimal technique was to aim using my first <BR>
action, and then blow 'em away on my second. As this involved standing <BR>
stationary in the open for a fair amount of time it did not enhance <BR>
SR's combat system in my eyes.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:36:20 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
On 30 Jun 00, at 2:03, Jussi Kenkkil wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
> From: Katharine Whitchurch <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 1:22 AM<BR>
> Subject: Re: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> > We probably could pull this ob-Trav, but it's going into a Gun Control<BR>
> > argument, so lets change the topic instead ... anybody got any<BR>
> > suggestions for the next Famile Spofulam design ?<BR>
> > <BR>
> Considering the other sub-threads of this gun-weave, maybe a new kind of<BR>
> Body Pistol with enough punch to satisfy the gun-craziest of merc<BR>
> characters.<BR>
<BR>
Why is it that all the fun stuff starts just as I'm about to leave my <BR>
beloved PC for the whole weekend?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:36:21 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 18:11, John Groth wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Jussi Kenkkil wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> > From: Katharine Whitchurch <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
> > To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 1:22 AM<BR>
> > Subject: Re: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > We probably could pull this ob-Trav, but it's going into a Gun Control<BR>
> > > argument, so lets change the topic instead ... anybody got any<BR>
> > > suggestions for the next Famile Spofulam design ?<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > Considering the other sub-threads of this gun-weave, maybe a new kind of<BR>
> > Body Pistol with enough punch to satisfy the gun-craziest of merc<BR>
> > characters.<BR>
> <BR>
> A worthy endeavor, but how do you mask californium rounds from weapons<BR>
> detectors?<BR>
<BR>
By putting one through the detector, of course.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:55:52 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 18:11, John Groth wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Jussi Kenkkil wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Considering the other sub-threads of this gun-weave, maybe a new kind of<BR>
> > Body Pistol with enough punch to satisfy the gun-craziest of merc<BR>
> > characters.<BR>
<BR>
> A worthy endeavor, but how do you mask californium rounds from weapons<BR>
> detectors?<BR>
<BR>
My solution involves a 20mm HEAP round.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:54:24 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 2:31 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/28/00 4:44 PM, Matthew Bond at mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > All fine and dandy (and informative), but it doesn't really answer my<BR>
> > question.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > As I understand it when 5.56 was introduced it was said to lack<BR>
'stopping'<BR>
> > power compared to the 7.62.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Is this so?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > What determines 'stopping' power?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > As I understand it the complaint was that it would usually take several<BR>
hits<BR>
> > by 5.56 to put a combatant out of the fight compared to fewer hits with<BR>
> > 7.62. Why would this be?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I can see that a 'dirtier' wound from a tumbling 5.56 will have a higher<BR>
> > mortality post combat than a 'cleaner' wound from a non-tumbling 7.62,<BR>
but<BR>
> > what differentiates post-combat lethality from the nebulous 'stopping'<BR>
> > power?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Matt<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> According to my sources, when the M16 was first introduced to army troops<BR>
> (Special Forces) they sent back stunning reports of the rifles<BR>
> effectiveness.  Enemy were "rendered hors de combat immediately upon being<BR>
> hit".  If anything, the 'stopping power' was probably exaggerated.  I am<BR>
> unfamiliar with any widespread complaint of the .223 requiring more hits<BR>
per<BR>
> target to effect a 'kill'.  The most routine complaint was a lack of<BR>
> reliability, initially due more to the lack of cleaning kits an the<BR>
> insidious effects of the jungle.  The chrome bore and chamber, and<BR>
rigorous<BR>
> PMC cured this. Curiously, elite units issued the M-16 never complained<BR>
> about it's unreliability during the war, probably du to the much better<BR>
> maintenance these units tend to give all of their equipment.<BR>
><BR>
> Do you have a source for these complaints about inadequate stopping power?<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
<BR>
Well, I can't recall where I originally read it, but I found this on the<BR>
web:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/M16part2.html<BR>
<BR>
This agrees with your statements about the initial assessment of the 5.56<BR>
fired from the 1:14 M-16 as being a 'meat-ax', but goes on to say that the<BR>
weapon was so unstable at this twist that accuracy was poor. The change to<BR>
1:12 fixed the accuracy, but at the expense of the tumbling. This lead to<BR>
very poor penetration and wound size at typical battle ranges. Or so I<BR>
understand it.<BR>
<BR>
You must bear in mind that living in the UK, I have never even *seen* a real<BR>
gun and can only go by what I read. I certainly find your post on this topic<BR>
useful, and would just like to clarify what you say from your much greater<BR>
experience in the subject with what I have read. Obviously, without the<BR>
practical knowledge of a regular firearms user, I have limited ability to<BR>
spot firearms BS if I read it <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2691<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, June 29 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2692<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: customized weaponry, cops, and robber gangs<BR>
re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
Re: not so small arms<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
Re : Stopping Power (long)<BR>
Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
Re : Stopping Power<BR>
RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Point-blank<BR>
RE: Point-blank<BR>
Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
Re: Rats<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
Balanced Weaponry (long; was: Re: Stopping power)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:17:03 -0500<BR>
From: Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: customized weaponry, cops, and robber gangs<BR>
<BR>
At 07:33 AM 06/29/2000, Rupert wrote:<BR>
><snip><BR>
> >  Oh, and yes, ambush is the word for it.  The FBI hireling, former<BR>
> > legendary Texas Ranger, had an informant set up Bonnie & Clyde to show at<BR>
> > his chosen ambush spot, lay waiting in the bushes with I think three other<BR>
> > people (or was it two?), and when B&C arrived, fired off hundreds of<BR>
> > rounds with no pretense of arresting or capturing anyone.  Was it Melvin<BR>
> > Purvis who hired the guy, or was it J. Edgar Himself?  I think it was<BR>
> > Purvis. Anyway, the FBI knew full well they were paying somebody to kill<BR>
> > B&C, not bringing in a consultant to help capture them and bring them to<BR>
> > trial.  If Johnnie Cochran were around back then, B&C's next of kin would<BR>
> > have brought a huge wrongful death suit against the FBI and won. :-><BR>
><BR>
>It's always facinated me how law enforcement in the US of old was<BR>
>little different from outlawry.<BR>
<BR>
For some real interesting reading, read about the earliest Texas Rangers <BR>
especially along what was called the "Pecos Strip" IIRC. There are several <BR>
books but for the life of me I can't remember the titles. I read them while <BR>
researching my wife's genealogy, one of her Great Great Grandparent was a <BR>
Texas Ranger and buried the honors of one.<BR>
<BR>
The Texas Rangers had hand in the revolver development in the pre civil war <BR>
era. The Walker Colt was named after a Capt? Walker of the Texas Rangers.<BR>
<BR>
The Texas Rangers also helped/consulted with the US Army during the <BR>
US-Mexican War, as for their role depends upon who's history book you read.<BR>
<BR>
Sinbad Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:18:44 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I see the prohibition on<BR>
> slavery as being based on:  (1) it's bad for business<BR>
> (paying wages is much better for interstellar trade); (2)<BR>
> interstellar traffic in slaves is intrinsically<BR>
> destabilizing and is a breach of the peace of the realm<BR>
> (think of how slaves are likely to be acquired)<BR>
> (accordingly, local ownership of slaves is forbidden as<BR>
> encouraging interstellar traffic); and (3) during the Long<BR>
> Night, slavery was relatively common, and during early<BR>
> Imperial times, the Imperium encouraged and assisted slave<BR>
> revolts to get new member worlds.  So the right to kill or<BR>
> otherwise abuse a _family_ member does not implicate any of<BR>
> these concerns.  <BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> >Also, I know the Imperium is against slavery. But is it <BR>
> >allowable to *sell* yourself into to "slavery" via a <BR>
> >contract? How about one that places limits on what you can<BR>
> >or can't be made to do? Would that be illegal? <BR>
<BR>
I think that's called 'enlistment' in Traveller and is<BR>
legal.<BR>
 <BR>
> No, it's contrary to the Imperial edict outlawing slavery.<BR>
> Slavery is the ownership of another sophont as an item of<BR>
> chattel, or any relationship characterized by the badges<BR>
> and incidents of slavery (if I may paraphrase a document<BR>
> familiar to all).  Any situation that results in slavery is<BR>
> contrary to Imperial law, is unenforceable, and subjects<BR>
> the slave owner and any aiders, abettors, or conspirators<BR>
> to Imperial high justice criminal penalties.  <BR>
<BR>
Then why does the Imperium, at least in CT & MT, include the <BR>
draft? The draft is slavery the only real difference is who <BR>
your owner is. Given that being drafted in CT [1] can result in <BR>
becoming a Merchant or an Other than the Imperial draft is <BR>
not only a military draft but also a civilian draft. <BR>
<BR>
Given that the Imperium itself has sovereign immunity then presumably <BR>
people who are drafted into the Army, Navy, Marines, and Scouts <BR>
can not sue for enslavement but what about Merchants and Others?<BR>
If a CT character rolls 12's on his reenlistment roll than he <BR>
_has_ to reenlist "due to the needs of the service". If forced<BR>
labor (enlistment for another term) can be compelled in non<BR>
military fields than how is this different from slavery?<BR>
<BR>
I'd say that only chattel slavery is forbidden in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
The Warrant of Restoration [T4 M0 Campaign p 84] states:<BR>
"Article VI - Slavery prohibited: Chattel slavery shall not<BR>
exist within the Imperium, nor in any territory directly<BR>
under its control, nor on any member world, nor within any<BR>
territory with which a member world shall have dealings."<BR>
<BR>
Enslavement by your employer must be legal in the Imperium<BR>
or the character generation system would not include it. [2] By<BR>
the Imperium's definitions the draft and forced reenlistment<BR>
for the needs of the service is apparently not slavery. Apparently<BR>
forcing people to work for you and not letting them quit<BR>
is not chattel slavery under Imperial law. This seems to me to<BR>
be just another example of the hypocrisy and unjustness of<BR>
the Third Imperium. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
[1] But not in MT where the draft is a military draft only<BR>
(Navy, Army, Marines, Scouts, Flyers, and Sailors). However<BR>
in MT "If the throw is 12 (exactly) the needs of the service<BR>
require that the character serve another term, regardless of<BR>
his or her personal desires" [MT PM p 17] Given that this<BR>
rule applies to all characters, including those in civilian<BR>
services than the MT Imperium also (effectively) has slavery<BR>
just not chattel slavery.<BR>
<BR>
[2] Unless of course you as a referee choose to eliminate<BR>
the Draft and mandatory reenlistment on a 12 from your TU.<BR>
Given that they are features of the official TU. than they<BR>
are presumably legal in the Imperium. In reality the CT<BR>
Draft rule was written before the Imperium was created and<BR>
was most likely simply ported into future Traveller products<BR>
without considering the conflict between the Draft and the<BR>
Imperium's 'No chattel slavery' rule.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:31:27 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On 29 Jun 00, at 18:11, John Groth wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Jussi Kenkkil wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > > Considering the other sub-threads of this gun-weave, maybe a new kind of<BR>
> > > Body Pistol with enough punch to satisfy the gun-craziest of merc<BR>
> > > characters.<BR>
> <BR>
> > A worthy endeavor, but how do you mask californium rounds from weapons<BR>
> > detectors?<BR>
> <BR>
> My solution involves a 20mm HEAP round.<BR>
<BR>
*sigh* I suppose a body pistol _does_ have to sacrifice some firepower<BR>
to ensure concealability....<BR>
<BR>
C'est la guerre.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, Rupert's suggestion (put a round through the detector) also has<BR>
merit. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
*thinks a bit*<BR>
<BR>
How about this?  You wear a small backpack (the sort college students<BR>
carry their books in), which has a TDX charge in it.  (You place the TDX<BR>
charge in something innocuous, such as a soft drink can.)  When it's<BR>
showtime, you simply bend over, as if to tie your shoe or pick something<BR>
up (putting you under the plane of of the explosion), and BOOM! no more<BR>
opponent!<BR>
<BR>
For newcomers to Traveller, TDX is a gravitically-polarized explosive. <BR>
In other words, nearly all of the blast force propagates in a narrow<BR>
plane perpendicular to the force of gravity.  Unfortunately, I don't<BR>
recall which sourcebook describes TDX.  Can anyone help?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:45:46 -0500<BR>
From: Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
<BR>
At 04:20 AM 06/29/2000, you wrote:<BR>
>At 02:04 AM 6/29/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >Well, for Legionaires, it isn't *their* country. :-)<BR>
><BR>
>LOL! One of my favorite stories is the make-up of the FFL troops at Dien<BR>
>Bien Phu.. seems that almost all of the enlisted troops were native German<BR>
>speakers, all of whom claimed to been ethnically German Poles.  Somebody<BR>
>did a little research, and discovered that this was the bulk of a SS<BR>
>Division that had been offered enlistment in the Legion or a war crimes<BR>
>tribunal.<BR>
><BR>
>The Viet Minh would broadcast songs of the french resistance over the FFL<BR>
>radio nets, driving the officers nuts.  Amazing battle.<BR>
>--<BR>
Doug,<BR>
<BR>
I was lucky enough to get to read a book by a former Legionnaire, former <BR>
German SS(counter-insurgency) )in Russia, who served in French Indochina <BR>
after WWII. His entire unit was German mostly SS and other ex types. The <BR>
chief interrogation officer was Gestapo interrogator.<BR>
<BR>
Their are two books by this author I have been only able to find the first.<BR>
<BR>
The copy a was able to read was from someone whose father knew the author. <BR>
If you find a copy it is very pricey in any condition.<BR>
<BR>
Here they are:<BR>
author<BR>
Elford, George Robert<BR>
The Devil's Guard<BR>
Recall To Inferno: Devil's Guard Two<BR>
<BR>
Here is an excerpt from the bibliofind:<BR>
<BR>
Elford, George Robert: The Devil's Guard and Recall To Inferno: Devil's <BR>
Guard Two [the two books as a set]; "Devil's Guard" 1972, 1st paperback <BR>
edition, very good condition, pictorial paperback, published by Dell <BR>
publishing, New York, 336 pages. The incredible story behind the French <BR>
Foreign Legion Nazi Battalion in French Indochina, Vietnam. At the end of <BR>
World War II, the German S.S. troops that were captured in France, were <BR>
given a choice, shipped back to germany and the Russians, or, join the <BR>
French Foreign Legion with no questions asked, and the reward of French <BR>
citizenship at the end of a five year tour of duty, without hesitation they <BR>
joined, and were immediatly sent to French Indochina, where the French were <BR>
losing, this Nazi Battalion using the same brutal tactics as in Europe, <BR>
turned the situation around and were winning, until politics stepped in, <BR>
and the Nazi's were out, and the French ultimately meet their defeat at <BR>
Dien Bein Phu. AND "Recall To Inferno Devil's Guard Two" 1988, 1st edition, <BR>
very good+ condition, pictorial paperback, published by Dell Publishing, <BR>
New York, 305 pages. The continuation of the Devil's Guard, after <BR>
disbandment, they were recruited by South Vietnam, and became their Killer <BR>
Elite against the Viet Cong, and North Vietnam, with superhuman courage and <BR>
a streak of insanity, they became South Vietnam's most feared killers, <BR>
Hanoi called them the Commandos Of Death. These two books once started will <BR>
be hard to put down, and harder yet to forget! Quite scarce., <BR>
Military  Military S.S. France Foreign Legion Nazis World War II Vietnam <BR>
USD250.00<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:26:47 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Tod wrote:<BR>
>> "Unit BTSE of the Line, ready for duty!"<BR>
><BR>
>Laumer's most enduring characters.  I see the SJGames is releasing a role<BR>
>playing version of Bolo.  I'd be willing to bet that there is more than one<BR>
>ref on the list who's had a CSU show up in at least one game.<BR>
<BR>
FWIW, long-time Trav author and illustrator William "Bill" Keith has written a<BR>
number of Bolo books... there's a link to his website on my Departure Lounge<BR>
"Sources" page.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:52:36 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Stopping Power (long)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote :-<BR>
> More likely, the super high<BR>
> velocity gauss round will 'shatter' muscle and pulp soft tissue, requiring<BR>
> new techniques of wound care and debridement.  Perhaps our resident medico,<BR>
> Robert would care to comment.<BR>
<BR>
The wounding effects of hypervelocity (>5000 ft/s, 1524m/s) ordnance<BR>
have been predicted (since the 1960s, I'd guess ; anyone have access to<BR>
contemporary data from the latest incarnation of the project?) to be<BR>
very nasty.<BR>
<BR>
Rather than have clean entry wounds about the size of the bullet, you<BR>
get a big crater, hence the requirement for major reconstructive plastic<BR>
surgery (or more likely, a body bag). Destruction of surrounding tissue<BR>
from pressure effects is believed to be enormous ; as Tod has noted in<BR>
the above quote, viscera get pulped.<BR>
<BR>
Instead of an exit wound, a 'scab' of tissue might be produced, similar<BR>
to the effect of HESH ordnance on armour plate (since the sound speed of<BR>
tissue is exceeded by the projectile, the failure modes of the tissue<BR>
could be quite... graphic).<BR>
<BR>
> I like to point out that real military lasers<BR>
> with their high power are as likely to flash heat the liquid in tissue,<BR>
> creating a steamed meat explosion.<BR>
This is a certainty with the power levels of [Traveller] weapon lasers.<BR>
The energy delivered can't be radiated away in time.<BR>
<BR>
Plasma beamers ('ball lightning guns')* are worse, as these also have<BR>
some other nasty damage modes :-<BR>
- - thermal (danger space as well as direct) ;<BR>
- - induced currents (could cause cardiac arrest some metres from the line<BR>
of fire, as well as damage sensitive electronics) ; and<BR>
- - synchotron or bremsstrahlung radiation from fusing plasma (ouch!).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
- -----------------------------------<BR>
* - Greg Porter has a cool quote about this in 3G3 :-<BR>
'3G3 frowns on the notion of plasma beam weapons. Calculations of<BR>
radiated energy dissipation in air seem to indicate that a plasma beam<BR>
of useful power would be more like a pipe full of TNT than a point<BR>
target weapon. That is, you hold on to one end, and the target of the<BR>
attack holds onto the other.'<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:52:44 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
<BR>
David Summers wrote :-<BR>
> Not millennia.  Bacteria evolve very<BR>
> fast.  They have already rendered antibiotics that were major<BR>
> problems for them useless (in decades).  I would centuries at<BR>
> most...<BR>
<BR>
Yes ; with generation times measured in hours, bacteria can evolve very<BR>
quickly, if conditions are suitable.<BR>
<BR>
In the absence of harder data, incorporating factors such as, for<BR>
example :-<BR>
* niche competition ;<BR>
   - the lack of animal, plant and environmental reservoirs in the Vland<BR>
biosphere for Terran-derived microbes ;<BR>
   - 'No rooms in the inn' for Vland microbes attempting the jump to man<BR>
;<BR>
* mutation rates (e.g. developing appropriate adhesins, or molecular<BR>
machinery to deal with alternate cofactors/amino acids) ;<BR>
   - the lack of bacteriophage viruses in the environment to accelerate<BR>
mutation rates (for Terran natives) ;<BR>
   - failed experiments in the development of transposons ;<BR>
   - the probability of Vland-native microbes making the adaptations<BR>
necessary to colonise the Vilani ; and<BR>
   - the probability that colonising strains (from either biochemical<BR>
tradition) develop the necessary virulence factors,<BR>
<BR>
why don't we change 'millennia' to 'years', to suggest span of time<BR>
without excessive precision? <BR>
<BR>
I'd note, however :-<BR>
* The moulds and bacteria that make antibiotics have been making the<BR>
same, or very similar, compounds for much longer than centuries (the<BR>
genes coding for the synthetic machinery appear to be relatively stable)<BR>
;<BR>
* The development of antibiotic resistance is secondary to a<BR>
(hitherto unseen in nature, barring mass extinctions) enormous selective<BR>
pressure due to relatively indiscriminate use of these compounds ; and<BR>
* The 'uselessness' you describe is relative (the doses required to<BR>
effect clinically useful killing in these situations are *potentially*<BR>
toxic to the animal or person treated - recall the definition of<BR>
'minimum inhibitory concentration'). <BR>
    Erring on the side of safety ('primum non nocere'), megadose<BR>
antibiotic therapy is seldom used, given the usual risk-benefit profile,<BR>
and the presence of alternative compounds.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
'The bacteria don't hold all the trump cards in the microbe-host game'.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:57:03 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Stopping Power<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote :-<BR>
> > Psychotics aren't particularly effective combatants, though they could be<BR>
> > useful in short-lived terror actions such as you suggest in your post.<BR>
> >      As has been noted in recent traffic (the unarmed combat<BR>
> > discussions), a level head (or a good approximation thereof) is required<BR>
> > in combat and other stress situations.<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually they'd make piss-poor guerillas, unless used only for suicide <BR>
> attacks, because they'd lack the good judgement to cut and run when <BR>
> things went bad.<BR>
<BR>
Suicide attacks are exactly the 'short-lived terror actions' I had in<BR>
mind. I should have typed just that. Mea culpa.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:00:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
That is such a cool flick<BR>
<BR>
hehehe<BR>
<BR>
It won me a 'bad b movie' constest once ;)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Frank G.<BR>
Pitt<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 11:11 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I get the feeling you wouldn't like Peter Jackson's "Bad Taste"<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:10:15 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Point-blank<BR>
<BR>
Someone mentioned an article about several law enforcement officers in a<BR>
firefight (it was from a Challenge actually) with several baddies, where<BR>
ranges fell roughly within the 2 to 30 m zone and the hit ratio was<BR>
attrocious!  I believe the Chalange article was taken from the law agencies<BR>
report on the incident?<BR>
<BR>
So apparently, it is just as hard to hit someone 2m from you, as it is if<BR>
they are further away.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Pedro Lopez<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 1:42:am<BR>
Subject: Point-blank<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Standing five meters away from my enemy, shooting at him three times...and<BR>
hit nothing. That happens often when I play TNE.<BR>
<BR>
According to the rules in TNE, there is no difference when you shoot at a<BR>
target thats 2 or 30 meters away from you as long its within close range.<BR>
<BR>
Does anybody have an idea to a point blank-rule, that makes it easier to hit<BR>
your target, when its right in front of you? I suggest having your strength<BR>
or agility defining the point blank-range where the difficulty level is<BR>
better than usual.<BR>
<BR>
For example: Our guy with Strength 8 has a point blank-range of 8 meters. He<BR>
shoots a Vargr whos barking at him 5 meters away. Its a quick shot and its<BR>
normally a difficult roll within close range, but using the point blank-rule<BR>
its only an average roll...<BR>
<BR>
...and of course our guy hits his target.<BR>
<BR>
Any suggestions for point blank rules?<BR>
<BR>
Pedro Lopez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:24:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Point-blank<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
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<BR>
IMHO 'point blank' shots that are not aimed are going to have a very poor<BR>
hit ratio. If you take the time to stop and aim, that gets much much better.<BR>
Usally you are not just standing there pointing your gun. You are trying<BR>
your damnist to not get hit while trying to bring your weapon 'close' to<BR>
bear and fire it and watch for more baddies and look for cover and keep your<BR>
footing and count ammo and...<BR>
<BR>
Get a SMG or an Autoshotgun if you want to hit. ;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
  -----Original Message-----<BR>
  From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Pedro Lopez<BR>
  Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 8:42 AM<BR>
  To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
  Subject: Point-blank<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
  Standing five meters away from my enemy, shooting at him three times...and<BR>
hit nothing. That happens often when I play TNE.<BR>
<BR>
  According to the rules in TNE, there is no difference when you shoot at a<BR>
target thats 2 or 30 meters away from you as long its within close range.<BR>
<BR>
  Does anybody have an idea to a point blank-rule, that makes it easier to<BR>
hit your target, when its right in front of you? I suggest having your<BR>
strength or agility defining the point blank-range where the difficulty<BR>
level is better than usual.<BR>
<BR>
  For example: Our guy with Strength 8 has a point blank-range of 8 meters.<BR>
He shoots a Vargr whos barking at him 5 meters away. Its a quick shot and<BR>
its normally a difficult roll within close range, but using the point<BR>
blank-rule its only an average roll...<BR>
<BR>
  ...and of course our guy hits his target.<BR>
<BR>
  Any suggestions for point blank rules?<BR>
<BR>
  Pedro Lopez<BR>
<BR>
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<DIV><SPAN =<BR>
class=3D211532101-30062000>IMHO=20<BR>
'point blank' shots that are not aimed are going to have a very poor hit =<BR>
ratio.=20<BR>
If you take the time to stop and aim, that gets much much better. Usally =<BR>
you are=20<BR>
not just standing there pointing your gun. You are trying your damnist =<BR>
to not=20<BR>
get hit while trying to bring your weapon 'close' to bear and fire it =<BR>
and watch=20<BR>
for more baddies and look for cover and keep your footing and count ammo =<BR>
<BR>
and...</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN=20<BR>
class=3D211532101-30062000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN =<BR>
class=3D211532101-30062000>Get a=20<BR>
SMG or an Autoshotgun if you want to hit. ;)</SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN=20<BR>
class=3D211532101-30062000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN=20<BR>
class=3D211532101-30062000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><BR>
  <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr>-----Original Message-----<BR>
<B>From:</B>=20  owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com=20  [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]<B>On Behalf Of =</B>Pedro=20  Lopez<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 29, 2000 8:42 AM<BR>
<B>To:</B>=20  traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<B>Subject:</B>=20  Point-blank<BR>
<BR>
</DIV>  <DIV>Standing five meters away from my =enemy, shooting=20  at him three times...and hit nothing. That happens often when I play =TNE.=20  </DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>According to the rules in TNE, there =is no=20   difference when you shoot at a target thats 2 or 30 meters away from = you as=20   long its within close range.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>Does =anybody have an idea=20   to a point blank-rule, that makes it easier to hit your target, when = its right=20   in front of you? I suggest having your strength or agility = defining&nbsp;the=20   point blank-range where the difficulty level is better than usual.=20  </DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>For example: Our guy with Strength 8 =has a point=20  blank-range of 8 meters. He shoots a Vargr whos barking at him 5 = meters away.=20   Its a quick shot and its normally a difficult roll within close range, = but=20   using the point blank-rule its only an average roll...</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>...and of course our guy hits his=20  target.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>Any suggestions for point blank=20  rules?</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>Pedro =Lopez</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BFE1F7.3E9BC1B0--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:23:07 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote,<BR>
>Personally, I doubt if I could live anywhere east of the Mississippi.  I<BR>
need my space.  Some people actually like to live in places like New York.<<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but civilization ends at the Hudson when travelling west, so its a<BR>
fair enough tradeoff.<BR>
<BR>
Fred Ramen wrote,<BR>
>It seems to be a genetic condition :)<BR>
<BR>
If you live in NYC, you basically have to *really* want to. Very few<BR>
Manhattanites are actually born there (that's just an accident of birth.)<BR>
Most flee to the suburbs.<<BR>
<BR>
Bah.<BR>
Every time I leave the city the first thing I think of is how soon I can get<BR>
back. There is nothing like the feel of a subway car shaking and rattling as<BR>
you roll along underground to wherever you have to go. There is always a<BR>
store within walking distance open at all hours (except on Staten Island<BR>
which is a weird place anyway).<BR>
Its New York City baby. And all your jealousy won't take away the least bit<BR>
from it. :)<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:23:10 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rats<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote,<BR>
>I was referring to the gun-toting roaches. And frankly, I think a tank<BR>
of liquid nitrogen with a spray hose might be more effective, and a lot<BR>
safer...<<BR>
<BR>
Probably. I just like the idea of having something to throw flame on....<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote,<BR>
>When you own a dog, you have a loyal companion for life.  When you have a<BR>
cat, you have a room mate who has his own ideas about things and tolerate<BR>
you as long as you provide food.  Cats are not domesticated.<<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but I still like cats. My first cat had me totally domesticated. She<BR>
would hog the pillow, make me play fetch with her and hiss at anyone who<BR>
came into her apartment without her prior permission.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:23:17 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote,<BR>
>Let face it though.  Most PCs represent the dangerously psychotic or<BR>
sociopathic 2% of the population.  If they were normal, they wouldn't be<BR>
adventurers.<<BR>
<BR>
This is very true. Maybe most of them leave the service for Section 8's.<BR>
<BR>
>"oh, would that be those three gentlemen bleeding over there? Our sniper<BR>
set<BR>
up yesterday, and marked all the good shooting locations".<<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone have player that don't show up a least an hour if not a day<BR>
before any meeting? I know I always do when I get the chance.<BR>
<BR>
David Jaques-Watson         wrote,<BR>
>Use a toy helicopter or air/raft and you can even set the blast height (and<BR>
duck!)<<BR>
<BR>
That reminds me of a nightmare I had once where I was trapped in a chopper<BR>
flying NOE and this guy I knew was in there too and wanted to chuck a nuke<BR>
out the door saying we'd make it far enough away in time.<BR>
*shudder*<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:53:11 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 23:16, Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> There are three classes of antidepressants currently in use :-<BR>
> i. tricyclics - believed to inhibit noradrenaline/norepinephrine<BR>
> reuptake, as well as modulate the release of other transmitters (e.g.<BR>
> acetylcholine) ;<BR>
<BR>
> ii. selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (which act as their name<BR>
> suggests, leading to a longer time for serotonin to do its work).<BR>
> Examples include fluoxetine (Prozac) and paroxetine.<BR>
<BR>
> iii. combination noradrenaline/serotonin reuptake inhibitors e.g.<BR>
> venlafaxine (Efexor)<BR>
<BR>
Which catagory do MAOIs (Mono-Amine Oxidase Inhibitors) and reversed <BR>
MAOIs come into? I always thought that they were a seperate catagory.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:44:12 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Balanced Weaponry (long; was: Re: Stopping power)<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Tod wrote:<BR>
> I like you thoughts, though.  It's interesting to give the various weapons<BR>
> unique characteristics.  Otherwise, everyone just carries the nastiest<BR>
> thing allowed (Gauss rifle, PGMP, whatever).<BR>
<BR>
We came up against this when creating the "Traveller as AD&D" rules.<BR>
<BR>
In AD&D, the weapons are all balanced very carefully with positives and<BR>
negatives. For example, a knife doesn't do much damage but is very fast and will<BR>
usually hit first. A two-handed sword does lots of damage but will usually hit<BR>
last, since it is so slow.<BR>
<BR>
In contrast, in CT/MT there are weapons that are absolute standouts. For<BR>
example, the MT gauss rifle. Why would you carry any lesser long-arm? It is<BR>
switchable from single-shot to 5- and 10-round bursts, giving 1, 2 or 3 chances<BR>
to hit. It does 4D damage, which is almost the highest for a non-energy/grenade<BR>
weapon. Its range is 1.2km. The weapons of choice are snub or gauss pistol,<BR>
gauss rifle, auto grenade launcher, laser rifle, and fusion gun. Well, short of<BR>
a VRF gauss or RPY, anyway. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
The other difference is that AD&D is focussed on melee with ranged weapons (bows<BR>
etc) as an obvious add-on, while this is reversed in Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
What we ended up doing was creating a table of weapon characteristics, and then<BR>
assigning "plusses" and "minuses" to each characteristic's level. For example, a<BR>
range of 25m might be assigned -4, while range of 1.2 km might be at +4 (from<BR>
memory). Then we tried to work out what was the essential characteristic of each<BR>
weapon, pick the stats to match, and combine them so that they cancelled out -<BR>
the final weapon is a "+0" weapon. For example, we decided that a gauss rifle<BR>
was a long-range sniper weapon, so we gave it a long range but only 1d4 damage.<BR>
<BR>
The extra point to note (and missing from the web page, BTW :-(  ) is that all<BR>
the weapons shown are built at TL 13, which is supposedly "average Imperial TL".<BR>
The referee can then introduce "plus-weapons" from higher TL's (and<BR>
correspondingly "minus-weapons" from lower TL's). A TL 15 gauss rifle would be<BR>
"+2", which you could simply assign to accuracy, or apply to the weapon's<BR>
characteristics to increase damage, ROF, mag capacity, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Not realistic, of course (has anyone ever accused AD&D of this?? ;-), but lots<BR>
of fun. And heretical, ooh!<BR>
<BR>
The real fun was when the player who came up with this design method sent his PC<BR>
into (simulated) combat with another PC, whose player is extremely sharp on<BR>
tactics. The latter realised the best bet was to have multiple weapons (a-la<BR>
Matrix, but this was before that film!) to exploit the different ranges. He<BR>
started with the 2-shot elephant rifle at Long, dropped it and switched to ACR<BR>
at Medium, then dropped it and switched to SMG or a pistol when the other PC got<BR>
closer. Needless to say, he won convincingly, teaching the designer a lesson!!<BR>
;-)  [This is the PC who is followed around by K-9, has Demolitions-6, and says<BR>
"Beum"* a lot. Politely. Usually just before a BIG explosion - blamed on the Ine<BR>
Givar - goes off.]<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2692<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2693</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 30 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2693<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
A companion for Leofric (Was: Kipling)<BR>
TL 16 Plasma Rifle (was: RE: Weapon Design)<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Imperial Justice (was: Re: risk perception)<BR>
"Nearly all" is not "all"<BR>
Re: Slavery<BR>
Re: A companion for Leofric (Was: Kipling)<BR>
TDX<BR>
Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases<BR>
Re: A companion for Leofric (Was: Kipling)<BR>
Re: A companion for Leofric (Was: Kipling)<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
Re: Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
Re: "Nearly all" is not "all"<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 04:10:48 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: A companion for Leofric (Was: Kipling)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
<BR>
>I never cease to be amazed at the number of literate gamers I encounter.<BR>
>Probably because most of us are 'pathological' readers. It is so refreshing<BR>
>to be amongst the literati.<BR>
<BR>
I hope you're right, because I badly need the help of someone well-read.<BR>
Specifically, I'm detailing the world Sacnoth for my Traveller universe and<BR>
need the help of someone who has read Lord Dunsany's story "The Fortress<BR>
Unvanquishable Save for Sacnoth" [or something like it]. <BR>
<BR>
I've decided to name the primary of the system 'Leofric', which I believe is<BR>
the name of the hero that wields the sword Sacnoth in the story (I've never<BR>
been able to find the story, unfortunately). But there is also a red dwarf<BR>
companion and I'd like to name that after another character from the story.<BR>
Either someone else who has also wielded Sacnoth, or someone associated with<BR>
Leofric, preferrably his love interest (assuming he has one).<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone help me with this?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "Could you not begin at the beginning and go on until you come<BR>
	 to the end, and then, if you are able to, stop?"<BR>
	"I'll try," said his lordship, "but I always find the stopping<BR>
	 business so difficult."<BR>
			--- "Murder must advertise" by Dorothy Sayers<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:46:28 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: TL 16 Plasma Rifle (was: RE: Weapon Design)<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Patrick asked:<BR>
>On a related subject, :) is there a published reference for a TL 16 Plasma<BR>
Carbine and is<BR>
>it canon or no?<BR>
<BR>
MT Players Manual, TL 16 Plasma Rifle, 16D damage, most stats similar to the<BR>
FGMP-15 (from memory).<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:14:48 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 20:30, SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 4:05 -0400 29/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
> >DDoes the UK have the torturous appeals process that the US does?<BR>
<BR>
Its over 20 years since I studied law and it was in NZ, but at the time we <BR>
had a very similar system to the UK.<BR>
<BR>
> To appeal to a higher court I seem to recall that you have to <BR>
> convince the court that you have a good reason to.<BR>
<BR>
All appeals are "by leave" (ie you approval from either the sentancing court <BR>
or from the higher court). The first appeal is generally automatically <BR>
granted, but after that you almost always need to show a "serious point of <BR>
law" (ie something major wrong with the legal process, not just the facts of <BR>
the matter).<BR>
<BR>
> If I remember correctly there are three layers - County Court -> High <BR>
> Court -> Law Lords - but this is ten years on from the brief course I <BR>
> did on it.<BR>
<BR>
In NZ its four layers: District Court -> High Court -> Court of Appeals -> <BR>
Privy Council, but serious cases enter at the High Court level, making it <BR>
three layers for them. In the UK (based on my 20 year old LAWS 102 - <BR>
Legal History) its four or five A bench of JPs, County/Magistrates Court, <BR>
High Court and Privy Council.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:48:37 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Imperial Justice (was: Re: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Tod asked:<BR>
>ObTrav:  With a system of nobility in place, just what does a jury of your<BR>
>peers mean?  Is there high, middle and low justice?<BR>
<BR>
There's a stack of stuff around about this, some dating back to JTAS... #15, I<BR>
*think*. Some of the lawyers on the list have also replied, and I think it is<BR>
now covered in some of the GURPS material. Also see the intros to both my<BR>
"Police Characters for MT" and my "Ministry of Justice Characters for MT" (==><BR>
Tavonni Repair Bays) for a small discussion on this topic.<BR>
<BR>
Do you really want an answer to this question, or is it one of those "Done To<BR>
Death" and "See The Following References" kind of topic?<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:49:54 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: "Nearly all" is not "all"<BR>
<BR>
This is still going to be no fun for the person wearing the backback.<BR>
Better to get the carbomb driver type to do this, or even better an <BR>
unknowing victim.<BR>
<BR>
>How about this?  You wear a small backpack (the sort college students<BR>
>carry their books in), which has a TDX charge in it.  (You place the TDX<BR>
>charge in something innocuous, such as a soft drink can.)  When it's<BR>
>showtime, you simply bend over, as if to tie your shoe or pick something<BR>
>up (putting you under the plane of of the explosion), and BOOM! no more<BR>
>opponent!<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>For newcomers to Traveller, TDX is a gravitically-polarized explosive.<BR>
>In other words, nearly all of the blast force propagates in a narrow<BR>
>plane perpendicular to the force of gravity.  Unfortunately, I don't<BR>
>recall which sourcebook describes TDX.  Can anyone help?<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!<BR>
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 05:24:39 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>>No, it's contrary to the Imperial edict outlawing slavery.<BR>
>>Slavery is the ownership of another sophont as an item of<BR>
>>chattel, or any relationship characterized by the badges<BR>
>>and incidents of slavery (if I may paraphrase a document<BR>
>>familiar to all).  Any situation that results in slavery is<BR>
>>contrary to Imperial law, is unenforceable, and subjects<BR>
>>the slave owner and any aiders, abettors, or conspirators<BR>
>>to Imperial high justice criminal penalties.  <BR>
> <BR>
>Then why does the Imperium, at least in CT & MT, include the draft?<BR>
>The draft is slavery the only real difference is who your owner is.<BR>
>Given that being drafted in CT [1] can result in becoming a Merchant<BR>
>or an Other than the Imperial draft is not only a military draft but<BR>
>also a civilian draft. <BR>
<BR>
Because the so-called draft in CT and MT is an artifice of the game system,<BR>
not a reflection of Imperial laws. You don't really think that the Imperium<BR>
would use its powers to 'recruit' people for the 'Other' profession? Or that<BR>
'Other' represents an organisation on a par with the Army, Navy, Marines,<BR>
and Scouts? Even the Merchants don't actually represent an organisation that<BR>
has the power to draft anyone; it represents an agglomoration of<BR>
organisations from Megacorporations to Free Traders. A character in CT and<BR>
MT can be "drafted" into the merchants and still start on a Free Trader!<BR>
<BR>
>Given that the Imperium itself has sovereign immunity then presumably <BR>
>people who are drafted into the Army, Navy, Marines, and Scouts <BR>
>can not sue for enslavement but what about Merchants and Others?<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that any of the Imperial forces actually draft anyone, although<BR>
I'm not prepared to back that up with canonical references. I think that,<BR>
just as is obviously the case with the merchants and the others, anyone<BR>
"drafted" into the army, navy, marines, or scouts are not drafted in the<BR>
literal sense, but merely forced by the vagracies of fate into a particular<BR>
career. <BR>
<BR>
>If a CT character rolls 12's on his reenlistment roll than he _has_ to<BR>
>reenlist "due to the needs of the service". If forced labor (enlistment<BR>
>for another term) can be compelled in non military fields than how is<BR>
>this different from slavery?<BR>
<BR>
See above. The agency forcing someone to stay for another term may be an<BR>
employer excersing an option built into the employment contract or a gang<BR>
boss reluctant to lose a valuable minion, and the force may be the threat<BR>
losing a bonus or getting your legs broken.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."<BR>
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:39:31 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A companion for Leofric (Was: Kipling)<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> >I never cease to be amazed at the number of literate gamers I encounter.<BR>
> >Probably because most of us are 'pathological' readers. It is so refreshing<BR>
> >to be amongst the literati.<BR>
> <BR>
> I hope you're right, because I badly need the help of someone well-read.<BR>
> Specifically, I'm detailing the world Sacnoth for my Traveller universe and<BR>
> need the help of someone who has read Lord Dunsany's story "The Fortress<BR>
> Unvanquishable Save for Sacnoth" [or something like it].<BR>
<BR>
That title is correct, according to the Web sites I've found so far.<BR>
<BR>
According to the bibliography I downloaded, "The Fortress<BR>
Unvanquishable, Save for Sacnoth" first appeared in the book _The Sword<BR>
of Welleran- Tales_ in 1908.<BR>
<BR>
I'm still looking for the story itself....<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:36:22 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: TDX<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
John wrote:<BR>
>Unfortunately, I don't recall which sourcebook describes TDX.<BR>
<BR>
An early JTAS (#12?) and then Mercenary, which owners of the LFBB's (Large<BR>
Floppy Black Books) will now be able to reference...<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 05:52:47 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor writes:<BR>
<BR>
>* First contact and the Interstellar Wars<BR>
>Terra lay just outside the border of a frontier province. It wasn't long<BR>
>before quarantine precautions were dropped between the Terran explorers<BR>
>and the Vilani colonists at Agidda/Barnard's Star.<BR>
>     For the Ziru Sirka, this event was a minor curiosity - 'back page<BR>
>news'.<BR>
>     The Terran explorers, traders and colonists brought with them a<BR>
>mixture of commensal and pathogenic bacteria, viral illnesses and even<BR>
>parasitic infections that had evolved under some pretty harsh<BR>
>conditions.<BR>
>     Epidemics were only a matter of time. The Vilani were nearly a<BR>
>quarter of a million years behind in the 'arms race' between man and<BR>
>pathogen. The longevity factor, lack of recent outbreaks, and inertia of<BR>
>the Vilani medical establishment were an ideal combination for outbreaks<BR>
>to take hold.<BR>
>     The 'Plague of Duskir' was the most notable of these. <BR>
<BR>
Allow me to correct a common misconception. The plague of Duskir was not<BR>
one particular plague. It was a lot of different plagues that were<BR>
collectively called the PoD by later historians after the doctor who<BR>
spearheaded the effort to produce a vaccine that could protect Vilani<BR>
from the Terran diseases to which they were most suceptible.<BR>
<BR>
>It was thought to be actually due to several different viral and bacterial<BR>
>pathogens. The founding of the Rule of Man was marred by lesser outbreaks,<BR>
>which doubtless played some role in the collapse of the Second Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
I doubt it. The plagues would have had greatest impact during the last<BR>
decades of the Interstellar wars and the first decades of the RoM, when<BR>
the Terrans were moving to Vilani worlds as conquerors and thus difficult<BR>
to quarantine.<BR>
<BR>
The two references to the Plague of Duskir that I can find are:<BR>
<BR>
"During this mass migration of the Solomani[*], the terrible Plague of Duskir<BR>
struck. The Vilani and other non-Terran human races had come from worlds of<BR>
alien biology. The Vilani knew almost no disease, since their transplanted<BR>
had few harmful diseases. Non-Solomani humans across the empire were ravaged<BR>
by germs we Solomani had carried harmlessly for centuries. Worlds closer to<BR>
Terra suffered mass death, but the Plague even reached Vland itself. Some<BR>
colonies ceased to exist.<BR>
  On some worlds, the Plague of Duskir made us Solomani the majority where we<BR>
had once been the minority. Finally, with the help of Solomani medical<BR>
computers, the Vilani doctor Duskir created the wide-spectrum vaccine that<BR>
finally brought the plague under control."<BR>
<BR>
                                        _Solomani & Aslan_, p. 22<BR>
<BR>
[*] Refers to the Great Terran Diaspora, -2170 to -2000.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"While the Vilani did encounter hostile microorganisms on other worlds in<BR>
their early interstellar travels, most such infections were more annoying than<BR>
deadly. It was during the Rule of Man that the worst epidemics of hostile<BR>
microorganisms occurred. The Solomani settlers of that time brought viruses,<BR>
bacteria, and other disease pathogens of Terran origin with them as they<BR>
expanded throughout explored space.<BR>
  The effect of spreading Terran pathogens to the Vilani and other minor<BR>
human races was immidiately felt, and many historians claim that these<BR>
"plagues" contributed to the defeat of the First Imperium. Viral diseases<BR>
contracted from Solomani prisoners of war (including infections like<BR>
influenza and measels), spread throughout the Vilani population of entire<BR>
cities, and incapacitated many units of the First Imperium's forces.<BR>
  The Plague of Duskir  --  the most famous  --  followed in the wake of<BR>
advancing Solomani troops and affected worlds from the Solomani Rim to<BR>
Vland. The Plague was a combination of microorganisms common to the Solomani,<BR>
including yeast, staphylococci, digestive bacteria, and veneral disease.<BR>
  Although Terran medical technologists moved swiftly to prevent as many<BR>
deaths as possible (and while many Vilani were able to develop a degree of<BR>
immunity), several thousand worlds were infected, and the final death toll<BR>
came to over one billion."<BR>
<BR>
                                        _Travellers' Digest #20_, p. 44<BR>
<BR>
[Note that the first reference is "viewpoint material", written by a Solomani<BR>
about 3000 years after the event while the second reference is "authorial<BR>
voice" and thus supposedly the truth (But not necessarily the whole truth).]<BR>
<BR>
The main objection people have with this picture of the Plague of Duskir is<BR>
the statement that on some worlds it killed enough Vilani to make the<BR>
Solomani the majority. They point out that even if the Vilani had no<BR>
medical knowledge whatsoever  --  which is unlikely to begin with  --  then<BR>
simple mechanical measures like quarantine could prevent wholesale deaths.<BR>
Also, the logistics of space travel puts a limit to just how many millions<BR>
could have moved from Terra and her colonies to Vilani planets. If you put<BR>
a million Solomani on a high-population Vilani planet and kill off 99% of<BR>
the Vilani, they'd STILL outnumber the Solomani.<BR>
<BR>
My own explanation is based on a pet theory of mine to the effect that the<BR>
Vilani of the First Imperium preferred to stick to pleasant worlds and<BR>
rarely placed permanent settlements (as opposed to temporary outposts) on<BR>
any world that wasn't at least Human-prime. Furthermore, they practiced<BR>
population control and preferred worlds with population levels of 7 or 8<BR>
- --  something between 50 and 500 millions in most cases, although there<BR>
were of course exceptions (like Vland and Sylea). This would go a long way<BR>
to explain how the Terran Confederation was able to survive against such<BR>
overwhelming odds, as it would reduce the estimated might of the Imperium<BR>
by several orders of magnitude. The Terrans would still have been heavily<BR>
outnumbered, so it wouldn't change anything that has been written before,<BR>
but not quite so heavily. If Terra had an industrial capacity equal to the<BR>
nearest 10 or 20 or 30 First Imperium planets put together, well, it would<BR>
explain one or two things.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, if this was the case, then the First Imperium planets closest to<BR>
Earth could have had quite low populations; 50, maybe 100 million, perhaps.<BR>
And those planets closest to Terra would recieve far more immigrants than<BR>
those even a subsector away. Take a planet with 50 million inhabitants and<BR>
drop a few tens of thousands invading troops on them, and quarantine measures<BR>
are more dificult to implement. Make the world a springboard for further<BR>
military campaigns so that lots of troops will be funneled through it. Add<BR>
a couple of million immigrants and you can see that while any one plague<BR>
might not affect all that many Vilani, many different ones could be sweeping<BR>
through the population at the same time. That's propably what happened to<BR>
Iilike, Shulimik, and Gashidda.<BR>
<BR>
It wouldn't take many worlds like that  --  an single one might well be<BR>
sufficient  --  to create an archetype in the people's minds. Once the<BR>
terrible fate of, say, Gashidda, became known to people in the Imperium,<BR>
any plague would be seen as a potential 'Second Gashidda'. In time the<BR>
histories would get mixed up and after a few thousand years the inhabitants<BR>
of Shululsish would "know" that their planet had been devastated by the<BR>
Plague back in -2156  --  even though in truth less than 1% of the population<BR>
died.<BR>
<BR>
[BTW. I corresponded with Jon Zeigler on this subject while he was writing<BR>
_Rim of Fire_ and he told me he thought it sounded reasonable. I don't know<BR>
if he was able to include any of it in RoF. I really hope so.]<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:55:03 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A companion for Leofric (Was: Kipling)<BR>
<BR>
John Groth wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > >I never cease to be amazed at the number of literate gamers I encounter.<BR>
> > >Probably because most of us are 'pathological' readers. It is so refreshing<BR>
> > >to be amongst the literati.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I hope you're right, because I badly need the help of someone well-read.<BR>
> > Specifically, I'm detailing the world Sacnoth for my Traveller universe and<BR>
> > need the help of someone who has read Lord Dunsany's story "The Fortress<BR>
> > Unvanquishable Save for Sacnoth" [or something like it].<BR>
> <BR>
> That title is correct, according to the Web sites I've found so far.<BR>
> <BR>
> According to the bibliography I downloaded, "The Fortress<BR>
> Unvanquishable, Save for Sacnoth" first appeared in the book _The Sword<BR>
> of Welleran- Tales_ in 1908.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm still looking for the story itself....<BR>
<BR>
I have found a site with downloadable ASCII files of some of Dunsany's<BR>
works:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.filelibrary.com:8080/Contents/Multi-Platform/26/9.html<BR>
<BR>
I haven't checked to see if the story you seek is among these,<BR>
though....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:01:47 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A companion for Leofric (Was: Kipling)<BR>
<BR>
John Groth wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > >I never cease to be amazed at the number of literate gamers I encounter.<BR>
> > >Probably because most of us are 'pathological' readers. It is so refreshing<BR>
> > >to be amongst the literati.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I hope you're right, because I badly need the help of someone well-read.<BR>
> > Specifically, I'm detailing the world Sacnoth for my Traveller universe and<BR>
> > need the help of someone who has read Lord Dunsany's story "The Fortress<BR>
> > Unvanquishable Save for Sacnoth" [or something like it].<BR>
> <BR>
> That title is correct, according to the Web sites I've found so far.<BR>
> <BR>
> According to the bibliography I downloaded, "The Fortress<BR>
> Unvanquishable, Save for Sacnoth" first appeared in the book _The Sword<BR>
> of Welleran- Tales_ in 1908.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm still looking for the story itself....<BR>
> <BR>
One more bit of information:<BR>
<BR>
According to:<BR>
<BR>
http://web.bham.ac.uk/dmw571/rpg/dragon1.html<BR>
<BR>
the hero is named "Leothric", and the draconic monster he encounters is<BR>
named "Tharagaverug."  (Scroll down about 40% of the page to find the<BR>
reference.)<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:52:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Which raises another question.  PCs with pets?  Anybody travelling around<BR>
> with something weird.  Do players out there have pets?  With a few notable<BR>
> exceptions, my players don't tend to have pets.<BR>
><BR>
> And what is the ideal ship pet.  We discussed this a while back, but I'd be<BR>
> curios to get the List's take.<BR>
<BR>
A ferret would be "interesting" as a pet on board ship. It'd be great<BR>
for getting at vermin, and rendering the ship properly "ferret proof"<BR>
would *greatly* restrict the ability of many "vermin" to hide on the<BR>
ship. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:55:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>And what is the ideal ship pet.  We discussed this a while back, but I'd be<BR>
>>curios to get the List's take.<BR>
><BR>
> Cats, traditionally. Although I suppose anything small would work <BR>
> (rat, hamster, ferret, etc.).  I guess it would depend on the size of <BR>
> the ship, as well.<BR>
<BR>
Rabbits actually make ok house pets Some friends had a fair sized<BR>
rabbit who had the run of the house (along with a couple of dogs and<BR>
several cats). They don't housebreak completely.  That is you can get<BR>
them to use a newspaper for urination, but they tend to drop pellets<BR>
more indiscriminately. Luckily, the pellets can just be swept up.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, the rabbit and the other pets had an understanding. At least after<BR>
a few attempts to "attack" it resulted in belly rakes from the rabbit's<BR>
hind feet. <BR>
<BR>
After that, the rabbit would chase or get chased, but it was pretty<BR>
obviously just "We're bored, lets have some fun" on the part of all<BR>
concerned. <BR>
<BR>
A rabbit that's gotten enough zero gee experience to be able to make<BR>
good use of its legs could be frighteningly agile. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:03:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)Subject: <BR>
><BR>
>>So months later a neighbor let him know that the wounded<BR>
>>guy had been living on the other side of the block. There <BR>
>>were mentions of *lots* of blood soaked towels...I kind <BR>
>>wonder if he was bright enough to go to the ER before he<BR>
>>got a nasty infection or some such. <BR>
>>My friend mostly griped about them getting away, and about<BR>
>>having to repolish the blade, because it'd gotten blood on<BR>
>>it.  <BR>
><BR>
> Were the burglars ever caught and prosecuted?  <BR>
<BR>
Not to my knowledge.<BR>
<BR>
>>I can easily see him as a PC. <BR>
><BR>
> Ditto.  Thanks for sharing a great story.<BR>
<BR>
Here's something that happened once that is *very* PCish.<BR>
<BR>
A bunch of us were sitting around in the living room, and we got onto<BR>
the topic of "sounds you *really* don't want to hear behind you".<BR>
<BR>
Someone picked up a Colt 1911 and pulled back the slide. Someone else<BR>
worked the action on a pump shotgun. And he trumped all of us by<BR>
reaching back and grabbing that Thompson reciever I mentioned and<BR>
working the bolt....<BR>
<BR>
Only thing that I can think of that *might* have topped that (with<BR>
current weapons) wasn't handy. Namely, the sound of the "spoon" on a<BR>
grenade. He had some dummy grenades (they make great paperweights!) but<BR>
they were in a different room.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:54:00 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
At 3:45 AM -0800 6/29/00, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>  On 26 Jun 00, at 21:18, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>  I think the easterners might be shocked by my ammo though. I bought a<BR>
>>>  *case* of SKS ammo...<BR>
>><BR>
>>  My friend and I each bought a Chinese SKS for plinking. We'd buy a case<BR>
>>  of ammo each and I'd last us about a weekend (two if we were<BR>
>>  conservative). After he got a semi-auto AK-47 replica we had to buy<BR>
>>  more ammo, as we weasted less time reloading.<BR>
><BR>
>They *do* make 30 round magazines for the SKS. I own one.<BR>
<BR>
I own two.  :)  I almost bought a 75 round drum, too.  :)<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:59:53 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
<BR>
At 11:46 AM -0400 6/29/00, Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
>Now, as I am from the City of Brotherly Love, I will stick up for my New<BR>
>York City brothers and point out that what Central Park lacks in size it<BR>
>makes up for in sheer coolness. Cleopatra's Needle leaps immediately to<BR>
>mind, as does Belvedere Castle and the really cute redhead I saw in Central<BR>
>Park a short while ago... ahem. Sorry about that, I kind of got off track.<BR>
>Where was I?<BR>
<BR>
Isn't Cleopatra's needle the egyptian obelisk that is slowly dissolving<BR>
from the polluted air?<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:06:03 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
As he said, the PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) is the ideal place<BR>
to start.  Go to a library and look up antidepressants or drugs or<BR>
psychopharmaceuticals.  You can also check on Yahoo and search for<BR>
Paxil or any of the above.  I'm sure there's lots on the web.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 1:14 PM -0400 6/29/00, J-Man wrote:<BR>
>Where do I find info on Paxil?  I've already noticed a couple of side<BR>
>effects (not serious)<BR>
>___________________________________________________________<BR>
>  J-Man<BR>
>  ICQ# 2843475<BR>
>  New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
>  Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
>  Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
>___________________________________________________________<BR>
><BR>
>----- Original Message -----<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
>Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 12:37 PM<BR>
>Subject: Re: Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>>  on 6/29/00 8:03 AM, J-Man at j-man@iname.com wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>  > Hey robert, I'm taking "Paxil", what sort of anti-depressant is that?<BR>
>><BR>
>>  SSRI.  Selective Seratonin Re-uptake Inhibitor.<BR>
>><BR>
>>  If you ever want to get yourself paranoid about medications, read the PDR<BR>
>>  (Physician's Desk Reference) description of side effects.  And NO drug is<BR>
>>  without them.  Heck, peanuts will kill you if have an alergy.<BR>
>><BR>
>>  Tod<BR>
>>  --<BR>
>>  "Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
>>  killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
>>  --<BR>
>>  Tod Glenn<BR>
>>  mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
>>  http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:30:30 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: "Nearly all" is not "all"<BR>
<BR>
Wasn't TDX written up in a Traveller's Aid journal?  I think that's where I<BR>
saw it..<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Mark Urbin" <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 10:49 PM<BR>
Subject: "Nearly all" is not "all"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> This is still going to be no fun for the person wearing the backback.<BR>
> Better to get the carbomb driver type to do this, or even better an<BR>
> unknowing victim.<BR>
><BR>
> >How about this?  You wear a small backpack (the sort college students<BR>
> >carry their books in), which has a TDX charge in it.  (You place the TDX<BR>
> >charge in something innocuous, such as a soft drink can.)  When it's<BR>
> >showtime, you simply bend over, as if to tie your shoe or pick something<BR>
> >up (putting you under the plane of of the explosion), and BOOM! no more<BR>
> >opponent!<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> >For newcomers to Traveller, TDX is a gravitically-polarized explosive.<BR>
> >In other words, nearly all of the blast force propagates in a narrow<BR>
> >plane perpendicular to the force of gravity.  Unfortunately, I don't<BR>
> >recall which sourcebook describes TDX.  Can anyone help?<BR>
><BR>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- --<BR>
> urbin@bigfoot.com http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!<BR>
> Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood<BR>
sacrifice.<BR>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
- --<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2693<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2694</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 30 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2694<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Slavery<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: RQ (was RE: Gun Loving PCs)<BR>
Re: Leofric<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Maps & Plotters<BR>
Re: ancient water-cooled MGs<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
Re: Stopping power<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
Re: Crime in the 3I (was: Maps & Plotters)<BR>
Re: Drug Drug<BR>
Re: Crime in the 3I (was: Maps & Plotters)<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Stopping power (long)<BR>
Unsubbing for now<BR>
Re: Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:44:44 -0500<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery<BR>
<BR>
The Pater Familias hard the right of high and low justice over<BR>
all members of his family. The right was to ensure that<BR>
the "auctoritas (spelling) was of the house was maintained.<BR>
In effect to ensure that family honor was sustained.<BR>
<BR>
I concurr with "local law" in as much as it involves discipline<BR>
and lines of behavior within a family or clan. What would the<BR>
consequences be, however, if the the family member in<BR>
question publicly dis-enfranchised him/hers -self from the<BR>
family and still was the target of family enforcers. Especially<BR>
if this individual was an ex-imperial employee or even <BR>
(yikes!) an imperial citizen or honor noble?<BR>
<BR>
Yes, slavery is bad, but what abound indentured labor contracts for<BR>
a specific period of time with escalator clauses? Hmmm<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Thanks<BR>
Pat Connaughton <BR>
ICQ # 2535086<BR>
pconn@i1.net<BR>
"He who knows not how to dissemble knows not<BR>
how to reign"<BR>
Tiberius, Emperator and Princips of Rome<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:53:03 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
His "Bolo" books kick some serious ass!  Damn good reading.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au><BR>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 8:26 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Dear Folks -<BR>
><BR>
> Tod wrote:<BR>
> >> "Unit BTSE of the Line, ready for duty!"<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Laumer's most enduring characters.  I see the SJGames is releasing a role<BR>
> >playing version of Bolo.  I'd be willing to bet that there is more than<BR>
one<BR>
> >ref on the list who's had a CSU show up in at least one game.<BR>
><BR>
> FWIW, long-time Trav author and illustrator William "Bill" Keith has<BR>
written a<BR>
> number of Bolo books... there's a link to his website on my Departure<BR>
Lounge<BR>
> "Sources" page.<BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
> http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
> "I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
> of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
> position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:09:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 4:05 -0400 29/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>I'm also curious about the roll/power of juries in the UK.  Do you have the<BR>
>>equivalent of 'jury nullification'?<BR>
><BR>
> Is that were the defendant's lawyer can object to certain jury <BR>
> members? Or is it that a judge can rule a case too complex for a jury?<BR>
<BR>
Neither. It's where a jury can find you innocent *in spite* of what the<BR>
law says. The idea being that this makes it harder to get away with<BR>
"unfair" laws. <BR>
<BR>
Of course, these days, the juries are *not* told they have this<BR>
ability. And attempting to let them know about it can get you into<BR>
trouble. <BR>
<BR>
Do note that it doesn't work in reverse. They can't find you guilty<BR>
in defiance of the law. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:42:51 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: RQ (was RE: Gun Loving PCs)<BR>
<BR>
Trent <trentfs@ix.netcom.com> sez:<BR>
<BR>
>     Calling Hero Wars RQ4 is greatly misrepresenting the matter.  Despite <BR>
>sharing the same world-setting (Glorantha), RQ and Hero Wars have opposite <BR>
>design philosophies and are thoroughly incompatible (RQ = very detail <BR>
oriented, >kinda like Traveller; Hero Wars = extremely abstract and <BR>
free-form, sort of a >>cross between Pendragon and 'Amber').  <BR>
<BR>
 I'm quite aware, actually, but unless you are already aware of Hero Wars you <BR>
will have NO idea what I was talking about unless I mention RQ in the same <BR>
breath.<BR>
 At the rist of dragging this further OT, characters are fairly convertible <BR>
from RQ to HW, and the only thing HW and Amber have in common is the word <BR>
'abstract,' being completely mechanically different otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
 In a weak attempt to drag this back, I'd have to say that all of the <BR>
incarnations of Glorantha have used rules that, surprisingly, don't adapt <BR>
well to SF. I would quite happily play in the Star Wars or Titan AE settings <BR>
(yes, I've now seen it: I WANT THEIR SHIPS!) using the Hero Wars rules, since <BR>
those settings are not concerned with WHY something works, only that it DOES <BR>
work, and bear the Action/Adventure stamp on all things. Making a harder SF <BR>
setting work goes against the grain of the Hero Wars philosophy, however. You <BR>
COULD do it, but it would be hard SF from a very different direction that <BR>
most...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:55:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Joe Lachance" <Lachance@nc.rr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Leofric<BR>
<BR>
Leofric of Mersey (which includes Manchester among other cities)  also<BR>
happens to be the spouse of Lady Godiva of legend..if my memory serves me<BR>
correctly.<BR>
<BR>
Joe<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:13:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> All appeals are "by leave" (ie you approval from either the sentancing court <BR>
> or from the higher court). The first appeal is generally automatically <BR>
> granted, but after that you almost always need to show a "serious point of <BR>
> law" (ie something major wrong with the legal process, not just the facts of <BR>
> the matter).<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. How would they handle a case like one here in the US, where they<BR>
convicted the person on the basis of a blood test, with him being<BR>
considered the sole perp (it was a rape case), and years later a DNA<BR>
test showed that the sperm *wasn't* his. Now the prosecutor is claiming<BR>
that this *doesn't* prove anything, there could have been a second<BR>
perp, and this guy could have used a condom. <BR>
<BR>
Believe it or not the majority of the state appeals court accepted<BR>
this, and wouldn't even authorize a new trial. :-(<BR>
<BR>
His only hope of getting out of prison is either a pardon, or getting<BR>
the Supreme Court to review the case and order a new trial (not<BR>
terribly likely).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:18:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Maps & Plotters<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>> I saw an HP 7475A go for $10 on pdx.forsale a few days ago.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Wow! I would have been tempted even if I had one already! If it<BR>
>> wouldn't work on my Mac, I'd find somebody who could use it.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'd think it'd hook up ok to the printer or modem ports, but<BR>
drivers might be a bit harder to find unless you have CAD software. <BR>
<BR>
>> I looked at the size of my map again, and I think I'll have to<BR>
>> change the dpi to print it even on my Aunts machine, it's 96.4 x<BR>
>> 44.2 inches at 72 dpi. Mogumbus! What is the max size Kinko's can<BR>
>> handle?  There is a couple in Fresno I could take the file to.<BR>
><BR>
> As a copy slave.... The usual is still 36 inchs.... But the Tech<BR>
> Manger keeps saying we will be getting a 42 inch.<BR>
<BR>
Is the 36" the max dimension? Or just the max *width*?<BR>
<BR>
Back when I worked for Wacker, I'd probably have been able to to bring<BR>
in my own paper and use the E size plotter. I'd just have had to have<BR>
the file ready to "dump" to the plotter, or have it in AutoCad format. <BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure what sort of deal I could have made about using the<BR>
blueprint machine. <BR>
<BR>
BTW, that's the way to get big, single color drawing duplicated. Just<BR>
find a shop that does blueprints. A white on blue sector or worldmap<BR>
might look odd, but I suspect it'd be cheaper than Kinkos or the like. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:26:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: ancient water-cooled MGs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Oh, I almost forgot the M-72 LAWS, AT-4 and an honest to goodness Stinger<BR>
> (all photographed).  Now the Stinger, I'm really curious about.  How would a<BR>
> civilian get there hand on one?  It's not like they leave them laying<BR>
> around.<BR>
<BR>
Dishonest armorer in a Guard unit. Or somebody breaking into a Guard<BR>
armory. <BR>
<BR>
>  Ad what would you do with one?<BR>
><BR>
> "We'll see if that Cesna buzzes the barn again, Martha".<BR>
<BR>
More likely intended for use against the "black helicopters". :-(<BR>
<BR>
I think some of the restrictions are pretty damn silly. But I think<BR>
some of the "militia" types are even sillier. <BR>
<BR>
I *am* worried about the trends in some aspects of our government. But<BR>
I'm not a paranoid nutcase. <BR>
<BR>
The ObTrav for the above should be obvious.<BR>
<BR>
"He's got a *what* in that barn?"<BR>
<BR>
"A antiship det-laser missile." <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:34:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/28/00 6:08 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> On 28 Jun 00, at 4:05, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Ohh, yeh. My favourite picture has to be one my parents got of a<BR>
>> stuffed doll of the Prime Minister of the day blowing up after it had<BR>
>> been soaked in water and shot by a .30-06 at ~15 yards.<BR>
><BR>
> You are my kind of guy.<BR>
<BR>
Alas, I think the Secret Service might get a bit unhappy with anybody<BR>
doing that with a doll that looked like the President. I'm *really*<BR>
sure they'd be unhappy about it if you advertised a range with such a<BR>
doll. You'd make lots of money until they figured out how to "deal"<BR>
with it though.<BR>
<BR>
> In general, I agree with you, but given the heavy foliage in western Oregon,<BR>
> I was thinking of trying the .458 with 45-70 class handloads and 400 gn cast<BR>
> bullets.<BR>
><BR>
> Curiously, IIRC, while expanding bullets are required, I think the only<BR>
> caliber requirement is center fire cartridge.  .22 hornet anyone?<BR>
<BR>
Minimum of .25 if *not* centerfire is how I recall it. I don't recall<BR>
any limit on centerfire. Which I find silly, as it makes .25 ACP legal<BR>
game ammo!<BR>
<BR>
Note that the above limit doesn't apply to hunting squirrels. And some<BR>
game has higher requirements. I don't have a copy of the current<BR>
hunting regs.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:39:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brawling vs. Martial Arts<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> They *do* make 30 round magazines for the SKS. I own one. <BR>
><BR>
> Yep, I know, but it seemded more fun to get the AK to go with it :)<BR>
<BR>
Yerah, but for the AK you can get *drum* magazines. My gunsmith friend<BR>
had a couple. I don't recall if they were 50 and 75 or 75 and 100. <BR>
<BR>
Either way, they were *heavy* suckers.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:47:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stopping power<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> ObTrav:  Fanatics, (provided by the Ine Givar?) with combat drugs and<BR>
>> designer drugs tailored to anasthetize them and generate huge amounts of<BR>
>> adrenaline, testosterone, and otherwise warp their mood state into extreme<BR>
>> aggressiveness, would make formidable foes in guerilla raids on Imperium<BR>
>> forces.  What would be the weapon of choice for sentries on duty in zones<BR>
>> where attacks occur?  Perhaps firing a tranq round with a chemical<BR>
>> cocktail capable of defeating the attacker's own chemical cocktail? <BR>
>> Sounds too difficult.  A tranq round with a really nasty nerve agent?  A<BR>
>> thud gun?<BR>
><BR>
> An LSW with a nice long belt :)<BR>
<BR>
A man in BD should be able to fire a "punt gun" with no problem.<BR>
Designing a pump or automatic version is left to the gearheads.<BR>
<BR>
For those not familar with them, punt guns were *4* gauge guns<BR>
(shotguns?) fired from a fork mount in a punt (a small, flat-bottomed<BR>
boat). The *boat* took the recoil. <BR>
<BR>
Anybody want to work out the effects of a short-barreled 4-gauge firing<BR>
buckshot? Or maybe "canister"? <eg><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 21:52:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/29/00 4:35 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Lucky for you. I bet you didn't have a hunting license one you. And it<BR>
>> wouldn't be possible to tell if it was the protected species or the<BR>
>> game species....<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Sorry, but before I got my SKS, I was a bit frustrated to discover that<BR>
>> not only were squirrels the only game animal it's legal to hunt with a<BR>
>> .22 in this state, but that only one species is legal. And they don't<BR>
>> describe it all that well!<BR>
><BR>
> Grey squirrel GOOD<BR>
> Red squirrel BAD<BR>
><BR>
> The grey squirel is not native to Oregon, and is a pest.  If you get caught<BR>
> with a red squirrel, you are in deep doodoo.<BR>
<BR>
The trouble being that judging by the ones I see around town, there are<BR>
some "grayish brown" squirrels. <BR>
<BR>
> The squirrels out west hardly seem worth bothering with.  I never understood<BR>
> reading 'squirrel stew' and such.  I mean you'd need a zillion of them to<BR>
> have enough to eat. The I went back east.  "Mein Gott!" they have squirrels<BR>
> the size of a big rabbit.  Now them's eaten squirrels.<BR>
<BR>
Well, if I ever go hunting for them, I expect that a few of them will<BR>
make an ok bit of meat for part of a meal. And I can use the skins to<BR>
make pouches and the like for SCA stuff. <BR>
<BR>
In fact, a friend and I were discussing freezing some squirrels after<BR>
cleaning and skinning and cooking them at an event. Just to watch the<BR>
looks on people's faces. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> "Just watch out for the rabbits if you are going outside"<BR>
> "Yeah, whatever"<BR>
><BR>
> Moments later the door bursts open. PC with torn clothing, some blood, and a<BR>
> hunted look in his eyes.<BR>
><BR>
> "Giant...Carnivorous...Rabbits!<BR>
><BR>
> "Yup.  Good eatin' though"<BR>
<BR>
And cows are nice, placid animals...<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, right. Tell that to the Jersey who tried to gore me when I had to<BR>
carry her newborn calf up to the barn...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:02:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ian Ferguson wrote :<BR>
><BR>
>> Matt Bond writes:<BR>
>> >>A sword you can trust.<BR>
>> >"Aye! 'Till t'bastard breaks on yer!"<BR>
>> >My character was always having his bastard sword broken in RQ, so he<BR>
>> >ended up carrying two on his person, and another 2 on his horse...<BR>
>> <snipped><BR>
>><BR>
>>       Yup, RQ is a bit harsh on weapon durability.<BR>
><BR>
> No it isn't<BR>
><BR>
> You have to remember that in Runequest almost all weapons are made of<BR>
> _bronze_ It is very difficult to break an iron weapon in RQ, and<BR>
> there are _no_ steel weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Data point. An SCA friend once had a cast bronze reproduction of a<BR>
sword found in a viking burial.<BR>
<BR>
The edges weren't all that sharp. Nor did they need to be. With early<BR>
swords, the "edge" was just a good way to "focus" the *crushing* damage<BR>
the sword did.<BR>
<BR>
It did some impressive damage to the wooden "pell" we were using. But<BR>
we also discovered that you had to avoid hitting with the same edge<BR>
more than a couple times in a row. You see, the blade would start to<BR>
*bend*. <BR>
<BR>
And given the way bronze "work hardens", I can easily see it breaking<BR>
after a while.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:10:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/29/00 2:52 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> BTW, there are rumors of a 105 somewhee in the West hills. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> And there's the live Naval gun in some industrial par over in Vancouver.<BR>
> Everyone just assumes it was 'demilled'. Good view of the city, too.  You<BR>
> could take out out anythying.<BR>
><BR>
> Here In Beaverton, there's a nice little pack howitzer in one of the parks<BR>
> that looks like it could be returned to service with a lot of work.  I would<BR>
> look so cool towed behind my pickup...<BR>
<BR>
Import Plaza over by Saturday Market used to have a Finnish 20mm on a<BR>
carriage. It *was* demilled, but my friend thought he could restore it<BR>
if he only could get hold of it. :-)<BR>
 <BR>
>>> ObTrav;  Just because the PC's are trapped on a high law level<BR>
>>> world and in need of hardware doesn't mean they're out of luck.<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> "Hey, that's a Langthorn M86 Phased plasma rifle!  ma'am, did your<BR>
>>> Elmer bring anything else home from the war?"<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> "Just old Betsy.  She's out in the barn."<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Much glance exchanging by the PCs before they all scurry from their places<BR>
>>> to check out 'Betsy'.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> "Unit BTSE of the Line, ready for duty!"<BR>
>> <BR>
>> :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Laumer's most enduring characters.  I see the SJGames is releasing a role<BR>
> playing version of Bolo.  I'd be willing to bet that there is more than one<BR>
> ref on the list who's had a CSU show up in at least one game.<BR>
<BR>
No, of the old "Ogre" game. Ogres aren't very nice.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:58:25 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Crime in the 3I (was: Maps & Plotters)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 12:06 PM, Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella at xrp@sierratel.com wrote:<BR>
> ObTrav: It occurs to me that although Law Level is associated with crime,<BR>
> the two are not the same. Any thoughts on Crime Level in Traveller? Perhaps<BR>
> a factor of Gov type, Law Level and population? Might be nice to separate<BR>
> types of crime too, such as violence, theft, vandalism, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Excluding, of course, crime by government.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:57:42 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Drug Drug<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor wrote, in response to my post:<BR>
> > What I'm wondering is how long it's going to be until someone "bottles"<BR>
> > serotonin, in raw form, and sells THAT as a drug.  No messing with the<BR>
> > user's natural supply, just throw more on the fire.  Can the Medico <BR>
> tell us<BR>
> > if it's a chemical that can survive ingestion, or would need to be <BR>
> injected?<BR>
><BR>
>Serotonin is 5-hydroxytryptamine. It is produced from the amino acid<BR>
>tryptophan and is found in high concentrations in 'enterochromaffin'<BR>
>cells, located in the gut and central nervous system. Serotonin is also<BR>
>abundant in platelets.<BR>
<BR>
(snip the rest)<BR>
<BR>
The Medico comes through again.  Thanks.  It's great having a gearhead on <BR>
the list whose field isn't things that go BOOM. ;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:06:11 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Crime in the 3I (was: Maps & Plotters)<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
>Excluding, of course, crime by government.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but when the government does it, it's not "crime".<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:11:59 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 12:30 PM, SD Mooney at dom@cybergoths.u-net.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Is that were the defendant's lawyer can object to certain jury<BR>
> members? Or is it that a judge can rule a case too complex for a jury?<BR>
> <BR>
> Dom<BR>
<BR>
I give an example of this from a documentary I remember seeing.  the facts<BR>
may be munged, but the gist is accurate (this is arguably a good reason for<BR>
juries, depending on your point of view).<BR>
<BR>
A scumbag is arrested for molesting a young teenage boy.  The father waits<BR>
for the day when the molester is being taken to court and lies in wait for<BR>
him.  As the officers are escorting him to court, the father, while being<BR>
filmed in the act, guns down the man who molested his son.<BR>
<BR>
Subsequently, the father is charged with murder and brought to trial.  The<BR>
facts are incontrovertable.  Yet the jury decides that the man is 'not<BR>
guilty' despite the instructions of the judge. "If you find that the events<BR>
as presented by the prosecution are true, etc...then you must find the<BR>
defendant guilty" (not true).  Juries has the power to ignore all the<BR>
evidence if they choose.  I suppose some would consider this 'justice' as<BR>
opposed to 'law'.  I'm not sure I disagree.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:36:24 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Stopping power (long)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 4:29 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> On 29 Jun 00, at 13:15, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> I'd be quite happy with an M16, but would prefer an AKM-47. Not<BR>
> terribly accurate, but adequate for shorter ranges and they don't<BR>
> break. Besides those soft iron cores penetrate rediculously well. When<BR>
> it really comes down to it though, I'd want an FN MINIMI, and lots of<BR>
> ammo, of course.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I like the old M-16, but probably because my recent shooting experience come<BR>
my Olympic Arms Ultramatch, which will shoot 1/4" groups at 100 yards all<BR>
day long.  My main bitch with the AKs?  Given that they are probably the<BR>
most reliable and rugged rifles ever built, the sights suck, the trigger<BR>
sucks, the length of pull is too short for me (at 5'10" !), the safety is in<BR>
the wrong place and too noisy, the human engineering is awful and the damn<BR>
things shoot something like a 5" group at 100 yards.  Other than that,<BR>
they're great.<BR>
<BR>
For an AK design, I'd much rather take a Valmet, Galil or my favorite AK<BR>
derivative, FNC.  If I had an ammo bearer, yeah, LMG.  Personally, I've<BR>
always liked the Amelli MG-82.  A 5.56mm MG-42 look-alike that weighs a<BR>
little more than an M-16, is only slightly longer, and has a dual-speed<BR>
buffer.  If you aim before firing, 1200 round a minute really wipes out a<BR>
target.  I would be very happy with a minimi or ultimax.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:59:29 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Unsubbing for now<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
OK, that's me out of here (un-subbing for the weekend, maybe longer). I'll try<BR>
to keep you posted as to when I regener my Departure Lounge (currently I'm<BR>
working on a way to sort by Milieu).<BR>
<BR>
If you want to ask me direct questions about weapon/game balance or Imperial<BR>
justice systems, you'll have to email me directly (probably at home, below).<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:28:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Wireheading is a more certain way of getting your kicks - you regard the<BR>
> brain as a collection of 'black boxes' and stimulate a region you know<BR>
> is going to work, in everyone. <BR>
><BR>
> You could wire other centres too ; the regions of the hypothalamus<BR>
> dealing with temperature regulation, appetite, sex drive ; the pain<BR>
> suppression centres in the periaqueductal gray matter and thalamus...<BR>
><BR>
> Ob Trav : Advanced medical techniques offer some scary possibilities to<BR>
> repressive societies.<BR>
<BR>
An item I've encountered in several "dark future" type stories is a<BR>
"drug" that "hyper-sensitizes" the pain nerves. <BR>
<BR>
Is that sort of thing likely/possible?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2694<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2695</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 30 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2695<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: NZ firearms laws (long)<BR>
Re: A companion for Leofric (Was: Kipling)<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
Re: Imperial Justice (was: Re: risk perception)<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Away at GamesFest 2000<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Maps & Plotters<BR>
Re: Leofric<BR>
Re: "Nearly all" is not "all"<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
Re: Stopping power<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:16:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: NZ firearms laws (long)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> These endorsements cost even more than an ordinary license, and you <BR>
> have to belong to a club, etc, etc. "MSSA" stands for "Military Style <BR>
> Semi-Automatic", and is defined as any semi-automatic firearm with one <BR>
> or more of these features:<BR>
><BR>
> A free-standing pistol-grip,<BR>
><BR>
> A bayonet lug,<BR>
><BR>
> A flash suppressor,<BR>
><BR>
> A magazine holding more than 7 rounds if centrefire, or 10 if rimfire.<BR>
<BR>
I see your politicians are into the "scary looking guns" bit too. After<BR>
all, the *only* one of those features that is even *likely* to affect<BR>
their usefulness for a shooting spree is the magazine size...<BR>
<BR>
At least an SKS can easily be made to "fit" those rules. There's a<BR>
"thumbhole stock" available, and the stock "built-in" 10 round mag can<BR>
be replaced with a 5-round one. I've got one because if I ever go<BR>
hunting, I'll need to use it, since there's a 5-round limit for hunting<BR>
rifles (my .22 with the tube magazine will require an insert that<BR>
prevents more than 5 rounds from being in the weapon).<BR>
<BR>
> If I sound bitter, it's because I am. The new laws have stopped <BR>
> precisely no shootings were introduced in a knee-jerk reaction to <BR>
> something that happened because of poor proceedures and not a failing <BR>
> in the then-current laws. Also because you had to show a reason to own <BR>
> a MSSA (supposedly you didn't have too, but those without a "good <BR>
> reason" tended not to get the endorsement) I had to sell two of my <BR>
> rifles or butcher them, so I sold them and got under half their pre-law <BR>
> value, because nobody was buying (surprise, surprise).<BR>
<BR>
You are better off than the folks in California. A particular type of<BR>
weapon (possible the same sort of rifle) was required to be registerd,<BR>
"but don't worry, we'll *never* confiscate them". A few years later<BR>
they passed a law making them illegal, *and* not allowing owners to<BR>
send them out of state. Then they offered the owners "compensation"<BR>
that was insultingly low. <BR>
<BR>
I think it's still working its way thru the courts.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:27:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A companion for Leofric (Was: Kipling)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>I never cease to be amazed at the number of literate gamers I encounter.<BR>
>>Probably because most of us are 'pathological' readers. It is so refreshing<BR>
>>to be amongst the literati.<BR>
><BR>
> I hope you're right, because I badly need the help of someone well-read.<BR>
> Specifically, I'm detailing the world Sacnoth for my Traveller universe and<BR>
> need the help of someone who has read Lord Dunsany's story "The Fortress<BR>
> Unvanquishable Save for Sacnoth" [or something like it]. <BR>
><BR>
> I've decided to name the primary of the system 'Leofric', which I believe is<BR>
> the name of the hero that wields the sword Sacnoth in the story (I've never<BR>
> been able to find the story, unfortunately). But there is also a red dwarf<BR>
> companion and I'd like to name that after another character from the story.<BR>
> Either someone else who has also wielded Sacnoth, or someone associated with<BR>
> Leofric, preferrably his love interest (assuming he has one).<BR>
><BR>
> Can anyone help me with this?<BR>
<BR>
Check the Project Gutenberg web site. I'm pretty sure that they've got<BR>
most of Dunsany's stuff, because it's now out of copyright. There's a<BR>
lot of Wells, Verne and Burroughs there too.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:41:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
><BR>
>>Also, I know the Imperium is against slavery. But is it <BR>
>>allowable to *sell* yourself into to "slavery" via a <BR>
>>contract? How about one that places limits on what you can<BR>
>>or can't be made to do? Would that beillegal? <BR>
><BR>
> No, it's contrary to the Imperial edict outlawing slavery.<BR>
> Slavery is the ownership of another sophont as an item of<BR>
> chattel, or any relationship characterized by the badges<BR>
> and incidents of slavery (if I may paraphrase a document<BR>
> familiar to all).  Any situation that results in slavery is<BR>
> contrary to Imperial law, is unenforceable, and subjects<BR>
> the slave owner and any aiders, abettors, or conspirators<BR>
> to Imperial high justice criminal penalties.  <BR>
<BR>
Only problem is, your interpretation would also apply to *jailing*<BR>
anybody. <BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that this is *contract* relationship. Yes a rather more<BR>
flexible one than the sort of "indentured servitude" that existed in<BR>
Colonial times.<BR>
<BR>
And since there are rights under the law, even for "slaves" of this<BR>
sort (though fewer than for "free" citizens) that's a bif difference<BR>
also.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:31:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/29/00 8:46 AM, Chris Seamans at semo@pil.net wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Now, as I am from the City of Brotherly Love, I will stick up for my<BR>
>> New York City brothers and point out that what Central Park lacks in<BR>
>> size it makes up for in sheer coolness. Cleopatra's Needle leaps<BR>
>> immediately to mind, as does Belvedere Castle and the really cute<BR>
>> redhead I saw in Central Park a short while ago... ahem. Sorry about<BR>
>> that, I kind of got off track.  Where was I?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Oh yeah: Don't knock Central Park unless you have an obelisk, a<BR>
>> castle and a cute redhead in your park! More importantly, don't<BR>
>> knock Philadelphia, because you'll make me moderately surly, and<BR>
>> that's not very polite.<BR>
><BR>
> My park can beat up your park?<BR>
><BR>
> And I bet your cute redhead shaves her legs, doesn't wear tie-die or<BR>
> Birkenstocks, and has never been to a "Grateful Dead" concert.  She<BR>
> doesn't 'twirl', have a 'meat is murder' bumper sticker on her 20<BR>
> year old Volvo or thing that Ronald Reagan, IS the anti-christ (OK,<BR>
> maybe that last one).  I doubt she wears Pechulie oil (sp?),<BR>
<BR>
Patchoulie?<BR>
<BR>
> or has a friend who a real-live active anarchist.  Leonard, am I<BR>
> making this up?<BR>
<BR>
Probably not, but I can't really say for sure. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:19:12 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 4:54 PM, Matthew Bond at mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  <BR>
> You must bear in mind that living in the UK, I have never even *seen* a real<BR>
> gun and can only go by what I read. I certainly find your post on this topic<BR>
> useful, and would just like to clarify what you say from your much greater<BR>
> experience in the subject with what I have read. Obviously, without the<BR>
> practical knowledge of a regular firearms user, I have limited ability to<BR>
> spot firearms BS if I read it <g><BR>
> <BR>
> Matt<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Matt, I would never have guessed.  And actual experience with a firearms<BR>
does not convey special knowledge.  I have gotten into many debates on the<BR>
5.56 vs. 7.62 topic (i.e. which is more lethal) with 'experts' who draw<BR>
their conclusions from "what's obvious -- bigger bullet, bigger case, better<BR>
killer", experience shooting game (expanding bullets are used here, but ball<BR>
is the round of military rifles) or apocrypha.<BR>
<BR>
I have the advantage of having worked with people in the firearms industry<BR>
and in weapons R&D.  My shooting experience just give me certain perceptions<BR>
about guns, their reliability, pointability, etc.<BR>
<BR>
There is plenty of good printed source material.<BR>
<BR>
Required reading (IMHO) for serious gun technology study:<BR>
<BR>
Hard to get<BR>
"An Effectiveness Study of the Infantry Rifle" David Hall, 1952<BR>
(the famous "Hall Study" from the BRL--Ballistics Research Laboratory--which<BR>
iniatiated the Small Caliber High Velocity or SCVH concept)<BR>
<BR>
The ALCLAD report (I only have bits of this, I am trying to get the whole<BR>
thing) which was meant to be study of the effectiveness of body armor.  It<BR>
coincedentally established the typical ranges at which rifle fire occurs and<BR>
the controversial fact that massed unaimed fire was as if not more effective<BR>
than aimed fire.<BR>
<BR>
The Hitchman study "Operational requirements for an infantry hand weapon".<BR>
This study expanded on the Hall study, and validated the ALCLAD range data,<BR>
which indicated that long range requirements were overstated, a fact know to<BR>
the German army post WWI.  Both the German STG-44 and British EM-2 were<BR>
built directly as a result of this understanding.<BR>
<BR>
Somewhat hard to get<BR>
"SPIW: The deadliest weapon that never was." Stevens and Ezell.  This is the<BR>
only book I am aware of dealing with the Special Purpose Individual Weapon.<BR>
A lot of detail on the rifle flechette, but more useful, extensive quoting<BR>
of the above material.<BR>
<BR>
"The Great Rifle Controversy".  Ezell.  Deals with US rifle development,<BR>
technology and politics post WWII.  Again, lots of material from above, in<BR>
much greater detail.<BR>
<BR>
"The Black Rifle".  Steven and Ezell. Great info on the M-16 and what lead<BR>
to it's adoption.<BR>
<BR>
"Anti-personnel weapons" Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.<BR>
This is a rare find.  A detailed study of the effect of AP weapons by people<BR>
not in the industry.  A must read, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
It sounds like you've read the other usual sources.  These mentioned contain<BR>
minutae that will vault you into the category of Alpha-geek gun nut.  I can<BR>
list more if you like, but a perusal of the bibliographies will send you in<BR>
the right direction.<BR>
<BR>
Sadly, many of these books are out of print, but they are still out there.<BR>
<BR>
Hope that helps,<BR>
<BR>
Tod "My reference collection is bigger than your reference collection" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
*grin*<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:23:14 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 5:26 PM, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au at<BR>
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR>
> FWIW, long-time Trav author and illustrator William "Bill" Keith has written a<BR>
> number of Bolo books... there's a link to his website on my Departure Lounge<BR>
> "Sources" page.<BR>
<BR>
I'll have to check it out, though with no disrespect to Mr. Keith, I doubt<BR>
anyone could match Laumer's own particular writing style.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:41:40 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 6:23 PM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Bah.<BR>
> Every time I leave the city the first thing I think of is how soon I can get<BR>
> back. There is nothing like the feel of a subway car shaking and rattling as<BR>
> you roll along underground to wherever you have to go. There is always a<BR>
> store within walking distance open at all hours (except on Staten Island<BR>
> which is a weird place anyway).<BR>
> Its New York City baby. And all your jealousy won't take away the least bit<BR>
> from it. :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
Well, some of us think that if we can see smoke from our neighbor's place<BR>
it's just too darned crowded (I actually live in the suburbs, but you get<BR>
the idea).  A friend of mine takes great stock in the fact that he can step<BR>
off his porch in the middle of the day to relieve himself without offending<BR>
anyone, but that may just be a sign of stunted evolution.<BR>
<BR>
I enjoy being able to drive a half hour and be in the thick of wilderness.<BR>
Heck, I've been to New York, I like to be able to drive with a reasonable<BR>
chance of not having my car destroyed by the roads, and why are toll roads<BR>
always the worst? <BR>
<BR>
Some of us like a more sedate pace of life, and people who are actually<BR>
polite and friendly as a matter of course.<BR>
<BR>
And , OK, this is Tod.  I like to be able to go shooting on my lunch break,<BR>
with my legal silenced submachinegun, if I have one.<BR>
<BR>
OK, we have different tastes.  That's why there's chocolate AND Vanilla.<BR>
<BR>
An aside on the weirdness of Oregon.  Portland has one of the highest<BR>
percentages of nude bars (as in nude dancers, not nudist patrons). One of<BR>
the reasons it persists despite complains from the 'moral' populace?  In<BR>
Oregon, Nude dacing is 'constitutionally protected freedom of expression'.<BR>
Nothing earth shattering here, I just think it's kinda strange.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 00:47:02 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Justice (was: Re: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 6:48 PM, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au at<BR>
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> There's a stack of stuff around about this, some dating back to JTAS... #15, I<BR>
> *think*. Some of the lawyers on the list have also replied, and I think it is<BR>
> now covered in some of the GURPS material. Also see the intros to both my<BR>
> "Police Characters for MT" and my "Ministry of Justice Characters for MT" (==><BR>
> Tavonni Repair Bays) for a small discussion on this topic.<BR>
> <BR>
> Do you really want an answer to this question, or is it one of those "Done To<BR>
> Death" and "See The Following References" kind of topic?<BR>
<BR>
I'll just go to your site and not waste bandwidth (RTFM).  Besides, how<BR>
could I not visit after your lovely comments about our web site.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 01:00:20 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 10:03 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Someone picked up a Colt 1911 and pulled back the slide. Someone else<BR>
> worked the action on a pump shotgun. And he trumped all of us by<BR>
> reaching back and grabbing that Thompson reciever I mentioned and<BR>
> working the bolt....<BR>
> <BR>
> Only thing that I can think of that *might* have topped that (with<BR>
> current weapons) wasn't handy. Namely, the sound of the "spoon" on a<BR>
> grenade. He had some dummy grenades (they make great paperweights!) but<BR>
> they were in a different room.<BR>
<BR>
The sound of an AK being cycled is quite ominous (beats the hell out of an<BR>
AR15/M-16.  My personal favorite is the Lahti anti-tank rifle.  A friend<BR>
used to take his to the gun show and put it on his table to attract<BR>
attention (he sold survival gear).  The bolt has a LOT of travel.  You crank<BR>
it back.  He usually kept the action open, a range habit.  On one occasion,<BR>
someone was looking at it a little too closely and released the bolt.  It<BR>
rocketed close with an incredible sound that is difficult to surprise.  Just<BR>
about everyone in the place stopped and turned toward the sound.  And most<BR>
of these people were gun types and not unfamiliar with action noise.  But, I<BR>
mean this sound was awesome! One could imagine a weapon so powerful, that if<BR>
you were shot, your whole family would feel it.<BR>
<BR>
of course, there is always the sound of many shotguns/pistols/rifles being<BR>
cycled.<BR>
<BR>
"relax man, no one knows we're here"<BR>
Clack-clak<BR>
"no one?<BR>
Clack-clack-clackittyclackclackclackclack.<BR>
"This cannot be good"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 01:10:10 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 9:52 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> A ferret would be "interesting" as a pet on board ship. It'd be great<BR>
> for getting at vermin, and rendering the ship properly "ferret proof"<BR>
> would *greatly* restrict the ability of many "vermin" to hide on the<BR>
> ship. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
A rat wouldn't be bad either.  Not a hunter, of course, but I am surprised<BR>
at what good and entertaining pets they make, thanks to my daughters rat<BR>
'whiskers'.  They take up little space, are fastidious, eat anything you do<BR>
(and a lot you don't), are extremely playful and really really smart (dog<BR>
smart) and can be trained.  Now just hop on down to GenDye and get that<BR>
genetically enhanced, super intelligent one.  just don't ever let it breed,<BR>
or they'll be running the show in a few years.<BR>
<BR>
Strange pets.<BR>
<BR>
I had a character, a high ranking noble and former Navy type.  I decided at<BR>
the outset that the character was terminal as a complication of an old head<BR>
wound.  He was a big prankster, and slightly off kilter.  His 'pet' was a<BR>
genetically altered, hyper-intelligent platypus named Percy.  As the end<BR>
neared, he decide he wanted Percy to inherit.  Adopting him wouldn't work<BR>
for the titles, so he just acknowledged Percy as his illegitimate son.<BR>
<BR>
OK, he was just a little bit off. (more dried frog pills, please).<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:12:10 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Away at GamesFest 2000<BR>
<BR>
Hello all,<BR>
<BR>
I'm away for the weekend at Gamesfest 2000, demoing for BITS (if <BR>
you're in the South East of the UK why not drop in and see us at <BR>
Harlow). As a result I won't be reading email. Should you want to get <BR>
a message to me or BITS please copy it to my home address, as with <BR>
the rate you've been generating TML Digests this last week it could <BR>
be a while (if ever) before I read the weekend's tranch.<BR>
<BR>
Have a good one,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:08:02 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
At 3:17 -0400 30/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>Subsequently, the father is charged with murder and brought to trial.  The<BR>
>facts are incontrovertable.  Yet the jury decides that the man is 'not<BR>
>guilty' despite the instructions of the judge. "If you find that the events<BR>
>as presented by the prosecution are true, etc...then you must find the<BR>
>defendant guilty" (not true).  Juries has the power to ignore all the<BR>
>evidence if they choose.  I suppose some would consider this 'justice' as<BR>
>opposed to 'law'.  I'm not sure I disagree.<BR>
<BR>
I think that can happen in UK law, unless they removed it with the <BR>
reduction of the right to silence. (Basically, you can be silent, but <BR>
the Judge can instruct the jury to infer that the silence could be an <BR>
admission of of guilt). No doubt PLST or AMV will correct me here ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:03:21 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Maps & Plotters<BR>
<BR>
At 3:17 -0400 30/6/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
>BTW, that's the way to get big, single color drawing duplicated. Just<BR>
>find a shop that does blueprints. A white on blue sector or worldmap<BR>
>might look odd, but I suspect it'd be cheaper than Kinkos or the like.<BR>
<BR>
I find the A0 B&W photocopier and A0 colour plotter at work a great help :-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:01:17 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Leofric<BR>
<BR>
At 3:17 -0400 30/6/00, "Joe Lachance" <Lachance@nc.rr.com> wrote:<BR>
>Leofric of Mersey (which includes Manchester among other cities)  also<BR>
>happens to be the spouse of Lady Godiva of legend..if my memory serves me<BR>
>correctly.<BR>
<BR>
The River Mersey is a tidal river which starts up towards the <BR>
Pennines, passes Manchester and down to Liverpool, where the main <BR>
docks are, in the County of Merseyside, home of the Scousers. On the <BR>
opposite side of the river is Cheshire, and the Wirral Peninsular.<BR>
<BR>
Now, Lady Godiva was based in Coventry in the UK, so that may be <BR>
another way into tracing the information...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:55:09 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: "Nearly all" is not "all"<BR>
<BR>
At 0:17 -0400 30/6/00, "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com> wrote:<BR>
>Wasn't TDX written up in a Traveller's Aid journal?  I think that's where I<BR>
>saw it..<BR>
<BR>
I think it's also in the MT books.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:51:02 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
At 0:17 -0400 30/6/00, "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <BR>
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:<BR>
>In NZ its four layers: District Court -> High Court -> Court of Appeals -><BR>
>Privy Council, but serious cases enter at the High Court level, making it<BR>
>three layers for them. In the UK (based on my 20 year old LAWS 102 -<BR>
>Legal History) its four or five A bench of JPs, County/Magistrates Court,<BR>
>High Court and Privy Council.<BR>
<BR>
I thought that the JPs actually sit in the Magistrates court, which <BR>
is below County level. I also seem to remember that the Magistrates <BR>
court only deals with minor crimes, and may not have a jury. I'm <BR>
going to have to dig this stuff up - I haven't read it in a while.<BR>
<BR>
There was a recent issue with a magistrate who fell asleep during the <BR>
case they were hearing :-/<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:37:30 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
<BR>
At 19:54 -0400 29/6/00, "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>I'll try and set some time aside this weekend to have another look at the<BR>
>subject...<BR>
>(BTW, thanks for reminding me Dom <g>)<BR>
<BR>
I thought I'd be subtle about it ;-0<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 01:23:19 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Stopping power<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 10:47 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> A man in BD should be able to fire a "punt gun" with no problem.<BR>
> Designing a pump or automatic version is left to the gearheads.<BR>
> <BR>
> For those not familar with them, punt guns were *4* gauge guns<BR>
> (shotguns?) fired from a fork mount in a punt (a small, flat-bottomed<BR>
> boat). The *boat* took the recoil.<BR>
> <BR>
> Anybody want to work out the effects of a short-barreled 4-gauge firing<BR>
> buckshot? Or maybe "canister"? <eg><BR>
<BR>
I am reminded of the 90mm recoilless rifles issued to the US, pre<BR>
German-unification Berlin Brigade.  The 90mm was still in use there despite<BR>
being considered obsolete for two reasons.<BR>
<BR>
1.  The built up nature of Berlin, meant there was frequently not enough<BR>
distance for TOW and Dragon missiles to arm in the event of urban combat<BR>
against tanks or APC/IFVs.  (25m arming range, IIRC)<BR>
<BR>
2. 90mm canister ammunition.  I leave that to your immagination, but a<BR>
shotgun, even a 4 bore, pales in comparison.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 01:33:18 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/29/00 12:30 PM, SD Mooney at dom@cybergoths.u-net.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Is that were the defendant's lawyer can object to certain jury<BR>
> > members? Or is it that a judge can rule a case too complex for a<BR>
> > jury?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Dom<BR>
> <BR>
> I give an example of this from a documentary I remember seeing.  the<BR>
> facts may be munged, but the gist is accurate (this is arguably a good<BR>
> reason for juries, depending on your point of view).<BR>
> <BR>
> A scumbag is arrested for molesting a young teenage boy.  The father<BR>
> waits for the day when the molester is being taken to court and lies<BR>
> in wait for him.  As the officers are escorting him to court, the<BR>
> father, while being filmed in the act, guns down the man who molested<BR>
> his son.<BR>
> <BR>
> Subsequently, the father is charged with murder and brought to trial. <BR>
> The facts are incontrovertable.  Yet the jury decides that the man is<BR>
> 'not guilty' despite the instructions of the judge. "If you find that<BR>
> the events as presented by the prosecution are true, etc...then you<BR>
> must find the defendant guilty" (not true).  Juries has the power to<BR>
> ignore all the evidence if they choose.  I suppose some would consider<BR>
> this 'justice' as opposed to 'law'.  I'm not sure I disagree.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, despite what Judges tell you, that's very much a part of US <BR>
law, and one I highly approve of.  I do hope that someday I get <BR>
called to jury duty on a drug possession or dealing case.  Since I <BR>
don't see either as being a crime I'd vote to acquit regardless of <BR>
evidence until the rest of the jury got tired and agreed with me :)<BR>
<BR>
Do any other countries allow this?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 01:40:37 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 8:41 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> You can get a pretty good flash from a 16 if you take off the flash<BR>
>> suppressor.  Nothing so dramatic as my old .220 swift, though, which was<BR>
>> good for at least a foot.<BR>
> <BR>
> I always found the G3 to be really good, even with the flash<BR>
> suppressor. I guess firing 7.62 NATO from an 18" barrel might have<BR>
> something to do with it :)<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
Rupert, I am looking at an old copy of the "Machinegun News".  Flemming<BR>
firearms is showing an add for a G3 submachinegun. A sort of 7.62 HK53.<BR>
Muzzle flash, I imagine, would be spectacular.<BR>
<BR>
For real 'flash' though, there is always 'dragon's breath' shotgun loads.<BR>
This is a shotgun shell with a charge of lighter flints instead of shot.<BR>
Quite impressive looking.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2695<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 30 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2696<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: M1<BR>
RE: Crappy Military Units with Great PR<BR>
RE: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
RE: I am a Heretic...<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
Vs: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
Re: Slavery<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases<BR>
Re: Maps & Plotters<BR>
Re: Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
Re: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
SSTO Stuff<BR>
The Vilani and Infectious Disease, with apologies<BR>
Re : The Vilani and infectious diseases<BR>
Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
Fusion Body Pistol (was Re: getting dangerously close to Gun Control)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 01:41:07 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: M1<BR>
<BR>
on 6/26/00 8:41 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
>> Having fired a silenced 7.62x51mm, I can tell you that ballistic crack is<BR>
>> nothing like muzzle blast.  Certainly nothing that required hearing<BR>
>> protection.  Of course this was out doors. I can't say what it would be<BR>
>> like inside.<BR>
> <BR>
> Was this from behind the weapon, or down-range? IME down-range the<BR>
> sonic crack is quite spectacular.<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I was the shooter.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 04:59:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Crappy Military Units with Great PR<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, 28 June 2000 4:40 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Crappy Military Units with Great PR<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> on 6/28/00 3:09 PM, Katharine Whitchurch at katts@globalfreeway.com.au<BR>
> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> >> Subject: Re: not so small arms<BR>
> >> And there's the "motto": March or Die!<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> All of these fit well with a unit that produced the battle at Camerone.<BR>
> >><BR>
> ><BR>
> > And the unit that had the snot kicked out of it in Dien Bien<BR>
> Phu. And Syria.<BR>
> > And a bunch of other places. And that tried to lead an<BR>
> unsuccessful revolt<BR>
> > against their lawful government. And so on.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Ian Whitchurch<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> Hey, I though all of their celebrated battles were defeats.  But Hollywood<BR>
> has surely been kind to the legion.  Personally, I like the SAS.  Not real<BR>
> showy, just go in and get the job done.<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
><BR>
Well here in oz we celebrate every year ANZAC day, a celebration of our<BR>
glorious defeat at Gallipoli (actually its more a celebration of the spirit<BR>
than the Dardanelle's debacle)<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 04:59:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Ethan Henry<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, 28 June 2000 5:35 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Terran sleeper ships (Was: Vilani...)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:<BR>
> > >Actually, the Terrans did have sleeper ships.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > And there were an undisclosed number of other sleeper ships.<BR>
> Two examples of<BR>
> > worlds also settled by Solomani sleeper ships are Victoria/Lanth and<BR>
> > Algine/Regina (though Algine had a prior population (IMO 3rd<BR>
> Wave Vilani)).<BR>
><BR>
> Alright, alright. Seeing as no one has seen fit to comment on the<BR>
> rest of my post, I'll assume that this error aside that you're all<BR>
> fully convinced that the Vilani are not a bunch of lumps on a bump.<BR>
><BR>
> My mistake that the Terrans did indeed dispatch sleeper ships, although<BR>
> not with the intent of establishing an empire as far as I can tell.<BR>
> The Vilani sleeper ships went to very nearby planets with the intent of<BR>
> creating a local sublight trading empire. The Terran ships were<BR>
> apparently very long range (to the Marches from terra by sublight? Wow)<BR>
> settlement missions with a goal I'm not sure I really understand.<BR>
><BR>
> I'll look up the time ref regarding when the change in Vilani society<BR>
> happened when I have a chance.<BR>
><BR>
> Ethan<BR>
<BR>
And IMTU Pocket Empires campaign some of the Banners sector was settled by<BR>
sub-light colony ships belonging to a joint consolidation of American,<BR>
Japanese and Australian groups. Perhaps not strictly caronade but as I seem<BR>
to be the only one using this sector what the hey. Besides the European<BR>
Space Agency took the Islands Cluster.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:21:07 +0100<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> At 4:05 -0400 29/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>>I'm also curious about the roll/power of juries in the UK.  Do you have the<BR>
>>>equivalent of 'jury nullification'?<BR>
>><BR>
>> Is that were the defendant's lawyer can object to certain jury <BR>
>> members? Or is it that a judge can rule a case too complex for a jury?<BR>
><BR>
>Neither. It's where a jury can find you innocent *in spite* of what the<BR>
>law says. The idea being that this makes it harder to get away with<BR>
>"unfair" laws. <BR>
<BR>
Yes they can.<BR>
<BR>
The case that comes to mind is of "Clive Ponting" <sp?> A civil servant<BR>
who leaked some government "secrets" to the press.<BR>
<BR>
The jury cleared him of breaking the Official Secrets Act despite the<BR>
fact that I think he admitted the act.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:26:14 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
Patrick Tyrrel wrote:<BR>
> I have been Lurking on this list for the last couple of weeks.<BR>
> After reviewing the discussions I have come to the conclusion<BR>
> that I have seriously deviated from the norm.  I am using<BR>
> MegaTraveller rules with the addition of a variety of elements<BR>
> from a game called Space Opera and a game called Gamma World.<BR>
> Mostly equipment, weapons, character types and skills and<BR>
> creatures.  None of the PC's have gunpowder weapons, the only<BR>
> MegaTraveller personal weapons used are Lasers, Gauss guns, and<BR>
> Fusion/Plasma guns (not that they couldn't they exist in the<BR>
> game).  The rest are a variety of "Ray Guns" (blasters,<BR>
> disrupters) pulled from Space Opera and converted to MT stats.<BR>
> My question is, is anyone else on the list running a similar<BR>
> type game?<BR>
<BR>
I ref what I would call an MT Lite game set in the CT  era  which<BR>
borrows bits and pieces from GT.  Genre-wise it started out as  a<BR>
sort of "The A-Team" in the  3I  ...  became  AD&D  for  a  while<BR>
(thanks to the Thieves World supplement) and then Call of Cthulhu<BR>
in space.<BR>
<BR>
Space Opera and Gamma World,  huh?  Could  be  interesting.  I'll<BR>
have to try it.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:37:34 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
On 30 Jun 00, at 9:08, SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 3:17 -0400 30/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Yet the jury decides that the man is 'not<BR>
> >guilty' despite the instructions of the judge. "If you find that the events<BR>
> >as presented by the prosecution are true, etc...then you must find the<BR>
> >defendant guilty" (not true).  Juries has the power to ignore all the<BR>
> >evidence if they choose.  I suppose some would consider this 'justice' as<BR>
> >opposed to 'law'.  I'm not sure I disagree.<BR>
<BR>
> I think that can happen in UK law, unless they removed it with the <BR>
> reduction of the right to silence. (Basically, you can be silent, but <BR>
> the Judge can instruct the jury to infer that the silence could be an <BR>
> admission of of guilt). No doubt PLST or AMV will correct me here ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Again, based on 20 year old legal training, yes a jury can do this. However, <BR>
it's moderated by a judge's power to set aside a jury verdict (ie the judge <BR>
can say "You got it wrong and I'm changing the verdict").<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:23:59 +0300<BR>
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
 > "Brenneken slugs"? Que va?<BR>
<BR>
	Brenneke slugs are solid metal projectiles designed to be shot<BR>
	from a weapon with unrifled cylinder bore. The slugs have angled<BR>
	grooves or vanes at side, which induce rifling-like spin to the<BR>
	slug. These are sometimes referred as "air-rifle shotgun slug".<BR>
<BR>
	Some information and images can be found at:<BR>
<BR>
	http://www.dnrws.com/p665.htm<BR>
- --<BR>
       Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi<BR>
       Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:23:24 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
Dom wrote:<BR>
> > Subsequently, the father is charged with murder and brought<BR>
> > to trial.  The facts are incontrovertable.  Yet the jury<BR>
> > decides that the man is 'not guilty' despite the instructions<BR>
> > of the judge. "If you find that the events as presented by<BR>
> > the prosecution are true, etc...then you must find the<BR>
> > defendant guilty" (not true).  Juries has the power to ignore<BR>
> > all the evidence if they choose.  I suppose some would<BR>
> > consider this 'justice' as opposed to 'law'.  I'm not sure I<BR>
> > disagree.<BR>
> <BR>
> I think that can happen in UK law, unless they removed it with<BR>
> the reduction of the right to silence. (Basically, you can be<BR>
> silent, but the Judge can instruct the jury to infer that the<BR>
> silence could be an admission of of guilt). No doubt PLST or<BR>
> AMV will correct me here ;-)<BR>
<BR>
For lesser crimes than murder the recent loss  of  the  right  to<BR>
jury trial makes this irrelevant  (you  go  before  a  magistrate<BR>
instead).  What's scary is that magistrates are not  professional<BR>
judges.  (I know 2 magistrates  socially.)  The  prime  requisite<BR>
for becoming a magistrate seems  to  being  strong-willed  and/or<BR>
opinionated.  The magistrate hears all the evidence, decides what<BR>
evidence to consider and what to ignore  as  irrelevant  (in  his<BR>
opinion),  and  then  decides  the   verdict   based   on   that.<BR>
Statistically, magistrates have a  much  higher  rate  of  guilty<BR>
verdicts than juries, but they are cheaper for the tax-payer.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:38:36 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 2:11 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Jussi Kenkkil wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> > From: Katharine Whitchurch <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
> > To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 1:22 AM<BR>
> > Subject: Re: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > We probably could pull this ob-Trav, but it's going into a Gun Control<BR>
> > > argument, so lets change the topic instead ... anybody got any suggestions<BR>
> > > for the next Famile Spofulam design ?<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > Considering the other sub-threads of this gun-weave, maybe a new kind of Body Pistol with enough punch to satisfy the gun-craziest of merc characters.<BR>
> <BR>
> A worthy endeavor, but how do you mask californium rounds from weapons<BR>
> detectors?<BR>
> <BR>
I don't think that spaceport weapons detectors have been set to detect californium rounds. I don't think anyone expects someone trying to smuggle 5mm californium rounds thru the detectors. IMO they've been set to detect more common ammo materials.<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:49:50 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery<BR>
<BR>
> I don't think that any of the Imperial forces actually draft anyone,<BR>
although<BR>
> I'm not prepared to back that up with canonical references. I think that,<BR>
> just as is obviously the case with the merchants and the others, anyone<BR>
> "drafted" into the army, navy, marines, or scouts are not drafted in the<BR>
> literal sense, but merely forced by the vagracies of fate into a<BR>
particular<BR>
> career.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
IIRC, the MT books refer to Dulinor's accomplishments in restoring Ilelish.<BR>
Among these was re/instituting the draft to increase technical literacy<BR>
among<BR>
subject populations.  It is the only reference to a draft that I believe I<BR>
ever<BR>
saw in the Traveller literature about the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps the draft was from an older Imperial era?<BR>
<BR>
In any case, I agree with the viewpoint that the draft was largely an<BR>
artifice<BR>
of the early chracter generation systems.<BR>
<BR>
- -Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:10:17 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote regarding fuzzy-tailed tree rats^W^W^W^W^Wsquirrels:<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, if I ever go hunting for them, I expect that a few of them will<BR>
> make an ok bit of meat for part of a meal. And I can use the skins to<BR>
> make pouches and the like for SCA stuff. <BR>
> <BR>
One word: vair<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Herveus<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:14:54 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote :-<BR>
> Which catagory do MAOIs (Mono-Amine Oxidase Inhibitors) and reversed <BR>
> MAOIs come into? I always thought that they were a seperate catagory.<BR>
<BR>
They are, and I made the mistake of not mentioning them :-<BR>
The two classical inhibitors of monoamine oxidase, the enzyme which<BR>
breaks down catecholamines (adrenaline/noradrenaline)[1], are phenelzine<BR>
and tranylcypromine.<BR>
<BR>
They bind irreversibly to the enzyme, leading to a great increase in<BR>
half life of the relevant transmitters (from a minute or so to several<BR>
minutes). There are some problems because monoamine oxidase breaks down<BR>
other substances e.g. tyramine found in cheese and red wine, and some<BR>
drugs such as pethidine [2] - which can lead to potentially disastrous<BR>
hypertensive crises, or prolongation of drug action.<BR>
<BR>
Reversible inhibitors were developed, which competitively inhibit MAO.<BR>
The only agent in clinical use in Australasia is moclobemide (Aurorix).<BR>
<BR>
The compounds should be ceased for at least two weeks before general<BR>
anaesthesia.<BR>
<BR>
[1] - epinephrine or norepinephrine. Interestingly, the adrenal isn't<BR>
referred to as the 'epinephric gland' in the North American medical<BR>
literature.<BR>
[2] - meperidine or 'Demerol' for the 'norteamericanos'.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:28:38 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote :-<BR>
> Allow me to correct a common misconception. The plague of Duskir was not<BR>
> one particular plague.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the canon check.<BR>
<BR>
I wrote :-<BR>
> The 'Plague of Duskir' was the most notable of these. It was<BR>
> thought to be actually due to several different viral and bacterial<BR>
> pathogens.<BR>
The implication is that many different plagues were taking place<BR>
simultaneously. Multiple agents = multiple epidemics.<BR>
<BR>
> I doubt it. The plagues would have had greatest impact during the last<BR>
> decades of the Interstellar wars and the first decades of the RoM, when<BR>
> the Terrans were moving to Vilani worlds as conquerors and thus difficult<BR>
> to quarantine.<BR>
So the fall of the RoM was due solely to economic and political factors?<BR>
I guess things unravelled slowly - a gradual decline in interstellar<BR>
trade over the years, then one day the ships stopped coming... and then<BR>
it's the Long Night.<BR>
<BR>
> The two references to the Plague of Duskir that I can find are:<BR>
?no longer canon, thanks to R. Sanger? (bad)<BR>
?reinstated thanks to J. Zeigler? (good)<BR>
<BR>
> [BTW. I corresponded with Jon Zeigler on this subject while he was writing<BR>
> _Rim of Fire_ and he told me he thought it sounded reasonable. I don't know<BR>
> if he was able to include any of it in RoF. I really hope so.]<BR>
So do I. When's the book due out?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 05:39:46 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Maps & Plotters<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/29/00 10:18 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, that's the way to get big, single color drawing duplicated. Just<BR>
> find a shop that does blueprints. A white on blue sector or worldmap<BR>
> might look odd, but I suspect it'd be cheaper than Kinkos or the like.<BR>
<BR>
Actually I really like this idea, I think it would look very techno.<BR>
Laminating would make it even better. The medium might be best for a<BR>
starport schematic or deckplans.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:36:50 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
> An item I've encountered in several "dark future" type stories is a<BR>
> "drug" that "hyper-sensitizes" the pain nerves. <BR>
> <BR>
> Is that sort of thing likely/possible?<BR>
Very.<BR>
<BR>
From the top end :-<BR>
Suppress the inhibitory action of the periaqueductal gray matter and the<BR>
thalamus.<BR>
Thalamic pain syndromes (a common sequel of strokes) are awful, and<BR>
difficult to treat.<BR>
<BR>
Selectively suppress 'gatekeeper' neurones in the spinal cord. There's<BR>
been some work with antibodies to knock out substance P producing<BR>
neurones which have been implicated in chronic pain syndromes. Wipe out<BR>
or suppress the enkephalin/endorphin producing neurones in the cord<BR>
instead.<BR>
<BR>
A more exotic option is producing synaesthesia - mixing of sensory<BR>
modalities. Ciguatera poisoning often causes inversion of peripheral<BR>
temperature sensation (hot and cold reversed) as well as difficult to<BR>
treat neuropathic pain.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 01:17:03 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
On 30 Jun 00, at 2:03, Jussi Kenkkil wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Considering the other sub-threads of this gun-weave, maybe a new kind of Body<BR>
> Pistol with enough punch to satisfy the gun-craziest of merc characters.<BR>
<BR>
Okay, this is the "Sane" design. I'm still working on the "Approved by <BR>
Ditzie" variant.<BR>
<BR>
Name: Phoenix Enterprises 10mm PW-1015 Special<BR>
Calibre: 10 x 20mmE HEAP<BR>
ROF: 3 round burst or single shot<BR>
TL: 15<BR>
Damage: 5<BR>
Mag: 6<BR>
Recoil-SS: 3<BR>
Recoil-Burst: 4<BR>
Range: Contact<BR>
Mass: 0.75 Kg<BR>
Reloads: 0.18 Kg						<BR>
Length: 14.22 cm						<BR>
Cost: Cr 1165<BR>
Laser Sight: No<BR>
Sound Report: Normal<BR>
Flash: Low<BR>
Grenade Adaptor: No<BR>
Bayonet: No<BR>
Bipod: No<BR>
Tripod: No<BR>
<BR>
Specifically designed for those who require a discrete weapon for personal <BR>
defence, but who find that the low stopping power of the standard Body <BR>
Pistol fails to meet their needs. The PW-1015 special is constructed <BR>
entirely out of advanced polymers and ceramics, contributing to its low <BR>
overall weight and ability to evade most common forms of detection. The <BR>
PW-1015 fires a high velocity 10mm HEAP ETC round from a 6 round grip <BR>
magazine and can be fired in either single shot or 3 round burst mode and <BR>
is capable of disabling even the most determined assailant.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:29:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: SSTO Stuff<BR>
<BR>
Pinkerdoo is proud to announce their entry into the Space Race. Just<BR>
developed by the 'MidTech' team - a SSTO shuttle! Coming soon - The<BR>
'LowTech' team fires back with an Early Shuttle.<BR>
<BR>
http://members.home.net/pinkerdoo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:26:31 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: The Vilani and Infectious Disease, with apologies<BR>
<BR>
Rev. 1.2 :-<BR>
<BR>
* The pre-starflight era<BR>
Vland's native biochemistry is different from Terra's, enough to prevent<BR>
the spread of viral diseases between native and transplanted life.<BR>
     Initially, the incidence of bacterial infectious disease was very<BR>
rare ; over the years, pathogens derived from the commensals the<BR>
Vilani brought with them, as well as some hardy Vland natives, arose.<BR>
     The community-oriented mindset of the Vilani led to the development<BR>
of the science of epidemiology relatively early. Isolation and<BR>
preventive measures (e.g. sanitation) were the mainstays of treatment ;<BR>
surgery was rarely used, with occasional success.<BR>
     For a time, these were sufficient. The development of immune<BR>
tolerance to various environmental antigens contributed to increased<BR>
life expectancy - the Vilani 'longevity factor'.<BR>
     Microbes (bacteria, yeast analogues) were discovered with the<BR>
advent of appropriate optics. Subsequently, the germ theory of disease<BR>
was proposed, and gained acceptance once sufficiently firm evidence of a<BR>
link arose over the course of several years of research[1].<BR>
     It was noted that blood as well as certain substances found in<BR>
local life, could limit the progress of infections that failed to<BR>
respond to wound care, abscess drainage, etc.<BR>
     Antibiotics were developed ; immunisation efforts were initially<BR>
hindered by the lack of animal models. Some vaccines based on fragments<BR>
of killed bacteria as well as small doses of attenuated strains were<BR>
used, but passive immunisation with donor serum was a more common<BR>
practice.<BR>
     The advent of antibiotic resistance led to the re-use of<BR>
isolation/quarantine as a therapeutic intervention.<BR>
     Viruses were discovered by veterinary researchers attempting to<BR>
improve livestock and crop yields.<BR>
     While the fact of the differences between the Vilani and Vland's<BR>
biota was well recognised by the time of the Tauri colonisation<BR>
missions, the reasons behind it were not aggressively investigated. The<BR>
traditional methods of containment were felt to be sufficient.<BR>
<BR>
* The Ziru Sirka period<BR>
The Vilani soon travelled to worlds which were either colonised with<BR>
other human groups, or had more favourable biochemistries. As infection<BR>
control restrictions were relaxed with time, outbreaks of disease<BR>
occurred.<BR>
     In general, viral illnesses are more common than bacterial ones. In<BR>
reaction to this (hitherto theoretical) new threat, various research<BR>
efforts were launched. Specific vaccines and 'ethnopharmacology' were<BR>
the main treatments developed from this.    <BR>
     Animal models became available for research. The development of<BR>
molecular biology and immunology was limited by its association with<BR>
sporadic disease outbreaks (role of the longevity factor in limiting<BR>
pathology), cultural inertia (perceived lack of cost-effectiveness of<BR>
this area of basic research), and eventual cultural decline.<BR>
<BR>
* First contact and the Interstellar Wars<BR>
Terra lay just outside the border of a frontier province. It wasn't long<BR>
before quarantine precautions were dropped between the Terran explorers<BR>
and the Vilani colonists at Agidda/Barnard's Star.<BR>
     For the Ziru Sirka, this event was a minor curiosity - 'back page<BR>
news'.<BR>
     The Terran explorers, traders and colonists brought with them a<BR>
mixture of commensal and pathogenic bacteria, viral illnesses and even<BR>
parasitic infections that had evolved under some pretty harsh<BR>
conditions.<BR>
     Epidemics were only a matter of time. The Vilani were nearly a<BR>
quarter of a million years behind in the 'arms race' between man and<BR>
pathogen. The longevity factor, lack of recent outbreaks, and inertia of<BR>
the Vilani medical establishment were important predisposing factors in<BR>
the subsequent spread of disease.<BR>
     The 'Plague of Duskir' was the most notable of these. A series of<BR>
viral and bacterial epidemics, this cluster is actually named for the<BR>
Vilani physician who deduced the origins and routes of transmission of<BR>
the various diseases, and was instrumental in organising containment and<BR>
treatment efforts. <BR>
     The Rule of Man period was marred by lesser outbreaks, which were<BR>
symptoms, rather than causes, of a declining Second Imperium. The<BR>
collapse of interstellar trade networks was a double-edged sword -<BR>
disease transmission was limited, but worlds were left to themselves. <BR>
<BR>
Notes<BR>
[1] Clinically, 'traditional' bacterial culture techniques are<BR>
relatively insensitive, with yields of perhaps 20-30%. Polymerase chain<BR>
reaction techniques and more precise immunochemistry have a much better<BR>
'strike rate'.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:27:19 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : The Vilani and infectious diseases<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote :-<BR>
> My own explanation is based on a pet theory of mine to the effect that the<BR>
> Vilani of the First Imperium preferred to stick to pleasant worlds and<BR>
> rarely placed permanent settlements (as opposed to temporary outposts) on<BR>
> any world that wasn't at least Human-prime.<BR>
<BR>
They lacked the expertise to maintain long-term artificial<BR>
micro-ecologies. Fair enough. Colonising worlds with native biospheres<BR>
would be just as difficult as starting out on Vland in the first place,<BR>
once the initial field research was done.<BR>
<BR>
There were probably a few problems with overpopulation in the early<BR>
days, and the Vilani didn't have the necessary skill in ecoremediation.<BR>
Population control was thus imposed in the face of a hard lesson or two.<BR>
<BR>
Another option is that colony populations were capped so that they were<BR>
more of a known quantity if military intervention was required.<BR>
<BR>
'Collectivization' a la Stalin? Or is this a bit too dark?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:49:19 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Player choices of weapons<BR>
<BR>
Oh Mr. Keith matches it alright..sometimes even betters it.  But go read for<BR>
yourself.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
> I'll have to check it out, though with no disrespect to Mr. Keith, I doubt<BR>
> anyone could match Laumer's own particular writing style.<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:49:28 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net><BR>
Subject: Fusion Body Pistol (was Re: getting dangerously close to Gun Control)<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 02:03:40 +0300<BR>
>From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
>Subject: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
>- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
>From: Katharine Whitchurch <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
>To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
>Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 1:22 AM<BR>
>Subject: Re: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> We probably could pull this ob-Trav, but it's going into a Gun Control<BR>
>> argument, so lets change the topic instead ... anybody got any<BR>
suggestions<BR>
>> for the next Famile Spofulam design ?<BR>
>> <BR>
>Considering the other sub-threads of this gun-weave, maybe a new kind of<BR>
Body Pistol with enough >punch to satisfy the gun-craziest of merc<BR>
characters.<BR>
<BR>
>- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
Okay, how about a Fusion Body pistol?<BR>
<BR>
(GURPS Stats)<BR>
FBP-12 Fusion Body Pistol <BR>
Malf.   Type  Dmg  SS  Acc 1/2D Max <BR>
Ver.    Expl. 6d   9    7  40   80    <BR>
Weight   Rof  Shots  ST Rcl  Cost      LC  TL<BR>
0.2/0.03  1   1/3A   10  -3  750/20    0   12<BR>
 TL12 plasma blaster (using neutral particle beam design), 67 kJ output,<BR>
Compact and Close range options, cyclic rate 1, pistol grip, 3<BR>
Rechargeable A cells.<BR>
 <BR>
 Known as the "Last Chance", "Retributive Strike", and "Fusion Derringer".<BR>
This little gem has one shot, and only one shot. We figure at the close<BR>
ranges it will be used, one shot is all you need. Although it's range is<BR>
good to 40 yards, it is commonly held driectly against someone and fired.<BR>
The victims body tamps the explosion and serves as a silencer and flash<BR>
suppressor (Yech!). The damage is enough to kill or maime any unarmored<BR>
opponent, and maybe the firer as well as fusing plasma splatter will cause<BR>
burns to those not properly protected.<BR>
<BR>
 This weapon is small enough to be conceiled within another device, such<BR>
as a small pen or flashlight. A favorite of covert operatives everwhere.<BR>
<BR>
 X-TEK of Deneb, LIC assumes no responsability in injury to owners that<BR>
misuse, tamper with, taunt or use the FBP-12 outside the proper use as<BR>
outlined in the Terms of Agreement and Ownership.<BR>
<BR>
 Clean up kit sold separately.<BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
\  // Commander X<BR>
 \//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
T E K  Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //\  http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm<BR>
//  \ 0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2696<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 30 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2697<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
HG squadron<BR>
PBeM Gamers wanted - Entropic War<BR>
Re: NZ firearms laws (long)<BR>
Travelleresque Shotgun Slug<BR>
Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
Re: Kipling (was: Player choices of weapons)<BR>
Off list for a while...<BR>
RE: I am a Heretic...<BR>
Re: Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)<BR>
Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2696<BR>
RE: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
Re: Juries (was risk perception)<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 02:28:55 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: HG squadron<BR>
<BR>
I'm playing with the High Guard ship design program (its a project towards <BR>
my degree, hey theres another book for BITS - 101 Traveller Degree Credit <BR>
Projects) I'm writting and in the testing I came up with this Squadron <BR>
concept. This should put the fear of <insert sacred object or personnange> <BR>
into most players<BR>
<BR>
IMPERIAL BATTLERIDER SQUADRON<BR>
<BR>
Ship: Daramm<BR>
Class: Homeworld<BR>
Type: Battle Tender<BR>
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance<BR>
<BR>
USP<BR>
         AV-Y741474-090000-90009-0 MCr 495,398.290 1.2 MTons<BR>
Bat Bear             C     5   A   Crew: 5656<BR>
Bat                  Q     A   L   TL: 15<BR>
<BR>
Cargo: 2,087.000, Passengers: 120, Fuel: 528,000.000, EP: 48,000.000<BR>
Agility: 1, Ships Troops: 1200, Drop Capsules: 5776<BR>
Craft: 5 x 75,000T Battleriders, 15 x 3,000T Squadron Escorts, 20 x 40T<BR>
Pinnaces<BR>
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification<BR>
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer, 1 x Bridge<BR>
<BR>
Architects Fee: MCr 4,953.983   Cost in Quantity: MCr 396,318.632<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ship: Prince Asan<BR>
Class: Royal Prince<BR>
Type: Battlerider<BR>
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance<BR>
<BR>
USP<BR>
         BR-Q106AJ4-F99949-999T9-A MCr 82,985.484 75 KTons<BR>
Bat Bear             S   F 11118   Crew: 1223<BR>
Bat                  Z   L 1111A   TL: 15<BR>
<BR>
Cargo: 214.000, Frozen Watch (x2), Fuel: 7,500.000, EP: 7,500.000<BR>
Agility: 6, Ships Troops: 75, Marines: 241, Drop Capsules: 2448<BR>
Craft: 100 x 50T Heavy Fighters, 6 x 40T Pinnaces, 2 50T Launch Tubes<BR>
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification<BR>
Backups: 1 x Factor 10 Power Plant, 2 x Model/9fib Computers, 2 x <BR>
Bridges<BR>
2 x Factor 9 Nuclear Dampers, 2 x Factor 9 Meson Screens, 2 x Factor 4 <BR>
Black<BR>
Globes<BR>
Substitutions: Z = 35<BR>
<BR>
Architects Fee: MCr 829.855   Cost in Quantity: MCr 66,388.387<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ship: Blaahiskh<BR>
Class: Markii<BR>
Type: Squadron Escort<BR>
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance<BR>
<BR>
USP<BR>
         DS-C106CJ2-F79940-45009-0 MCr 6,615.918 3 KTons<BR>
Bat Bear             2     11  2   Crew: 55<BR>
Bat                  2     11  2   TL: 15<BR>
<BR>
Cargo: 243.500, Frozen Watch (x2), Fuel: 360.000, EP: 360.000, Agility: 6<BR>
Ships Troops: 3, Drop Capsules: 165<BR>
Craft: 2 x 40T Pinnaces<BR>
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification<BR>
Backups: 2 x Model/9fib Computers, 2 x Bridges, 2 x Factor 9 Nuclear <BR>
Dampers<BR>
2 x Factor 9 Meson Screens, 2 x Factor 4 Black Globes<BR>
<BR>
Architects Fee: MCr 66.159   Cost in Quantity: MCr 5,292.734<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ship: FT27<BR>
Class: FT27<BR>
Type: Heavy Fighter<BR>
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance<BR>
<BR>
USP<BR>
         SF-0604Z81-200000-00003-0 MCr 191.850 50 Tons<BR>
Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 2<BR>
Bat                            1   TL: 15<BR>
<BR>
Cargo: 0.000 Fuel: 14.000 EP: 14.000 Agility: 4<BR>
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops<BR>
Substitutions: Z = 28<BR>
<BR>
Architects Fee: MCr 1.919   Cost in Quantity: MCr 153.480<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ship: LY39<BR>
Class: LY39<BR>
Type: Pinnace<BR>
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance<BR>
<BR>
USP<BR>
         LY-0601101-000000-00000-0 MCr 8.240 40 Tons<BR>
Bat Bear                           Crew: 2<BR>
Bat                                TL: 15<BR>
<BR>
Cargo: 23.000 Passengers: 12 Fuel: 0.400 EP: 0.400 Agility: 1<BR>
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops<BR>
<BR>
Architects Fee: MCr 0.082   Cost in Quantity: MCr 6.592<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Squadron:<BR>
  1 Homeworld Tender<BR>
  5 Royal Prince Battleriders<BR>
  15 Markii Squadron Escorts<BR>
  500 FT27 Heavy Fighters<BR>
  80 LY39 Pinnaces<BR>
Cost: MCr 1,060,478.879<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:46:50 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: PBeM Gamers wanted - Entropic War<BR>
<BR>
I am considering running a pbem campaign set in the backdrop of a war between <BR>
the Sword Worlds and the Darrian Confederation in the GURPS Traveller year <BR>
1120. This would be at the strategic level, almost wargamish. Characters <BR>
would have to be movers and shakers - key political or military figures, like <BR>
squadron admirals or regimental commanders. Unique or specialized individual <BR>
characters would be possible as long as they are capable of playing a <BR>
influencial role in the campaign - citing Garok in Deep Space Nine or Luke <BR>
Skywalker and company as examples. <BR>
<BR>
Rules of play would be freeform based heavily on GURPS Traveller/Classic <BR>
Traveller rules and materials for reference in determining battle outcomes. <BR>
GURPS Compendium II and some of MegaTraveller's Rebellion related material on <BR>
the armed forces will also be heavily referenced.  This is to be more of a <BR>
"Traveller" game than focusing on any specific rules set although my personal <BR>
preference to be fairly warned is the GURPS/Classic Traveller version. <BR>
<BR>
Let me know if your interested. I am looking for between 4 - 6 players only. <BR>
Turns would be in persona narratives giving tactical information on ship and <BR>
troop movements, NPC mission briefings, and in character correspondence with <BR>
key NPCs/PCs.  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:12:06 -0700<BR>
From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com><BR>
Subject: Re: NZ firearms laws (long)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/30/2000 1:40 AM, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> You are better off than the folks in California. A particular type of<BR>
> weapon (possible the same sort of rifle) was required to be registerd,<BR>
> "but don't worry, we'll *never* confiscate them". A few years later<BR>
> they passed a law making them illegal,<BR>
<BR>
That was an SKS variant that used detachable AK-47 magazines (as opposed to<BR>
the aftermarket detachable magazines that can be used on an ordinary SKS).<BR>
The confiscation order went into effect at the beginning of the year, along<BR>
with a new law requiring that all semi-auto weapons be registered. Needless<BR>
to say, people haven't been rushing to register their weapons.<BR>
- -- <BR>
                              Ken Hagler<BR>
<BR>
|          ICQ#: 34591293         |   For PGP key send mail with  |<BR>
|   http://www.orange-road.com/   |    subject "Send PGP Key".    |<BR>
|   It's like an irony of fate; Things never turn out as I wish   |<BR>
|   It's just like an irony of fate; It kills me --Mari Iijima    |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:09:43 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Travelleresque Shotgun Slug<BR>
<BR>
Ever wonder what a TL11-12 shotgun slug looks like?<BR>
<BR>
The link below leads to an interesting candidate.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.dnrws.com/p665.htm<BR>
<BR>
Wicked. Very wicked.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:34:05 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
<BR>
>Isn't Cleopatra's needle the egyptian obelisk that is slowly dissolving<BR>
from the polluted air?<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<<BR>
<BR>
Yes. Though it wasn't made by Cleopatra. They are also working to stop the<BR>
disintegration.<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote,<BR>
>Well, some of us think that if we can see smoke from our neighbor's place<BR>
it's just too darned crowded (I actually live in the suburbs, but you get<BR>
the idea).  A friend of mine takes great stock in the fact that he can step<BR>
off his porch in the middle of the day to relieve himself without offending<BR>
anyone, but that may just be a sign of stunted evolution.<<BR>
<BR>
Not see your neighbors? How lonely.<BR>
As for relieving yourself at noon, there are places in the City that you can<BR>
do that. :-P<BR>
<BR>
>I enjoy being able to drive a half hour and be in the thick of wilderness.<BR>
Heck, I've been to New York, I like to be able to drive with a reasonable<BR>
chance of not having my car destroyed by the roads, and why are toll roads<BR>
always the worst? <<BR>
<BR>
Different kinds of wilderness. We can go to Jersey. :)<BR>
<BR>
>Some of us like a more sedate pace of life, and people who are actually<BR>
polite and friendly as a matter of course.<<BR>
<BR>
Actually, except for a limited number of professional jerks, most people in<BR>
the City are polite and friendly. Way too close quarters to be otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
>And , OK, this is Tod.  I like to be able to go shooting on my lunch break,<BR>
with my legal silenced submachinegun, if I have one.<<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'm not too big on all those guns being around, but we do have a<BR>
fascist SOB for mayor. Thankfully, he's gone in a year and half. (All praise<BR>
to term limits.)<BR>
<BR>
>OK, we have different tastes.  That's why there's chocolate AND Vanilla.<<BR>
<BR>
Mmmmmm...chocolate....<BR>
<BR>
>An aside on the weirdness of Oregon.  Portland has one of the highest<BR>
percentages of nude bars (as in nude dancers, not nudist patrons). One of<BR>
the reasons it persists despite complains from the 'moral' populace?  In<BR>
Oregon, Nude dacing is 'constitutionally protected freedom of expression'.<BR>
Nothing earth shattering here, I just think it's kinda strange.<<BR>
<BR>
See above on our Mayor who doesn't seem to understand the concept of free<BR>
speech.<BR>
Or the FOIA. Or public access. Or the right to assemble. Or...<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:43:50 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Kipling (was: Player choices of weapons)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote,<BR>
>I never cease to be amazed at the number of literate gamers I encounter.<BR>
Probably because most of us are 'pathological' readers. It is so refreshing<BR>
to be amongst the literati.  All in the tradition of the Imperium, I think.<BR>
A character should be able to keep the villian at bay with his cutlass, AND<BR>
toss of the occasional bon mot.  Witty reparte is de regeur for any<BR>
adventurer caught in a tight spot.<<BR>
<BR>
Kipling is just plain awesome.<BR>
From the abuse the enlisted man suffers from "decent" people (Tommy Atkins)<BR>
to warning against compromise with terrorists (Danegeld) to the threat of<BR>
domestic extremists (MacDonough's Song) to loyalty (Song of the Red War<BR>
Boat, The Grave of a Hundred Head) to everything else. He is as relevant<BR>
today as he was when he wrote. I pester everyone with Kipling quotes on a<BR>
regular basis.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:54:28 -0700<BR>
From: red@europa.com<BR>
Subject: Off list for a while...<BR>
<BR>
Due to problems with our ISP, we are in the process of going to <BR>
another one, hopefully temporarily while we await the promised <BR>
availability of cable internet access in our section of town.  So for <BR>
now, I'll be off list.  Although I'm sure Tod will keep me informed <BR>
of anything really interesting.<BR>
<BR>
Should anyone wish to contact me off list, you can use scribe@solsec.org .<BR>
<BR>
TTFN<BR>
Red<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:06:55 -0700<BR>
From: "Patrick Tyrrell" <Ptyrrell@orrick.com><BR>
Subject: RE: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand<BR>
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.<BR>
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The PC's don't know I use Gamma World reference material to supply the games<BR>
"Mysterious Nemesis from Beyond Space" :) with equipment.  None of them have<BR>
ever played Gamma World to my knowledge.  A good amount of the Gamma World<BR>
stuff is also more powerful and advanced (The power armor has built in<BR>
energy shielding for example) than either MT or Space Opera.  It gives the<BR>
PC's the occasional to pack really big weapons (When the MNFSB's show up)<BR>
but still makes it challenging.  Several People have asked for my Space<BR>
Opera to MT conversion charts.  It's currently hand written on legal paper.<BR>
And over 10 years old.  :)  I am placing it into an Excel spreadsheet and<BR>
when completed will be happy to share it with people.  -Patrick<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Trevor, Peter [mailto:Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com]<BR>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 3:26 AM<BR>
To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'<BR>
Subject: RE: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Patrick Tyrrel wrote:<BR>
> I have been Lurking on this list for the last couple of weeks.<BR>
> After reviewing the discussions I have come to the conclusion<BR>
> that I have seriously deviated from the norm.  I am using<BR>
> MegaTraveller rules with the addition of a variety of elements<BR>
> from a game called Space Opera and a game called Gamma World.<BR>
> Mostly equipment, weapons, character types and skills and<BR>
> creatures.  None of the PC's have gunpowder weapons, the only<BR>
> MegaTraveller personal weapons used are Lasers, Gauss guns, and<BR>
> Fusion/Plasma guns (not that they couldn't they exist in the<BR>
> game).  The rest are a variety of "Ray Guns" (blasters,<BR>
> disrupters) pulled from Space Opera and converted to MT stats.<BR>
> My question is, is anyone else on the list running a similar<BR>
> type game?<BR>
<BR>
I ref what I would call an MT Lite game set in the CT  era  which<BR>
borrows bits and pieces from GT.  Genre-wise it started out as  a<BR>
sort of "The A-Team" in the  3I  ...  became  AD&D  for  a  while<BR>
(thanks to the Thieves World supplement) and then Call of Cthulhu<BR>
in space.<BR>
<BR>
Space Opera and Gamma World,  huh?  Could  be  interesting.  I'll<BR>
have to try it.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[INFO] -- Access Manager:<BR>
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NOTICE TO RECIPIENT:  THIS E-MAIL IS  MEANT FOR ONLY THE INTENDED RECIPIENT OF THE TRANSMISSION, AND MAY BE A COMMUNICATION PRIVILEGED BY LAW.  IF YOU RECEIVED THIS E-MAIL IN ERROR, ANY REVIEW, USE, DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING OF THIS E-MAIL IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED.  PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY OF THE ERROR BY RETURN E-MAIL AND PLEASE DELETE THIS MESSAGE FROM YOUR SYSTEM. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR COOPERATION.<BR>
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<BR>
<BR>
The PC's don't know I use Gamma World reference =<BR>
material to supply the games &quot;Mysterious Nemesis from Beyond =<BR>
Space&quot; :) with equipment.&nbsp; None of them have ever played =<BR>
Gamma World to my knowledge.&nbsp; A good amount of the Gamma World =<BR>
stuff is also more powerful and advanced (The power armor has built in =<BR>
energy shielding for example) than either MT or Space Opera.&nbsp; It =<BR>
gives the PC's the occasional to pack really big weapons (When the =<BR>
MNFSB's show up) but still makes it challenging.&nbsp; Several People =<BR>
have asked for my Space Opera to MT conversion charts.&nbsp; It's =<BR>
currently hand written on legal paper. And over 10 years old.&nbsp; =<BR>
:)&nbsp; I am placing it into an Excel spreadsheet and when completed =<BR>
will be happy to share it with people.&nbsp; -Patrick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
<BR>
From: Trevor, Peter [<A HREF="3D">mailto:Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.c=om</A>]<BR>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 3:26 AM<BR>
To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'<BR>
Subject: RE: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
Patrick Tyrrel wrote:<BR>
&gt; I have been Lurking on this list for the last =couple of weeks.<BR>
&gt; After reviewing the discussions I have come to =the conclusion<BR>
&gt; that I have seriously deviated from the =norm.&nbsp; I am using<BR>
&gt; MegaTraveller rules with the addition of a =variety of elements<BR>
&gt; from a game called Space Opera and a game =called Gamma World.<BR>
&gt; Mostly equipment, weapons, character types and =skills and<BR>
&gt; creatures.&nbsp; None of the PC's have =gunpowder weapons, the only<BR>
&gt; MegaTraveller personal weapons used are Lasers, =Gauss guns, and<BR>
&gt; Fusion/Plasma guns (not that they couldn't they =exist in the<BR>
&gt; game).&nbsp; The rest are a variety of =&quot;Ray Guns&quot; (blasters,<BR>
&gt; disrupters) pulled from Space Opera and =converted to MT stats.<BR>
&gt; My question is, is anyone else on the list =running a similar<BR>
&gt; type game?<BR>
I ref what I would call an MT Lite game set in the =CT&nbsp; era&nbsp; which<BR>
borrows bits and pieces from GT.&nbsp; Genre-wise it =started out as&nbsp; a<BR>
sort of &quot;The A-Team&quot; in the&nbsp; 3I&nbsp; =...&nbsp; became&nbsp; AD&amp;D&nbsp; for&nbsp; a&nbsp; while<BR>
(thanks to the Thieves World supplement) and then =Call of Cthulhu<BR>
in space.<BR>
Space Opera and Gamma World,&nbsp; huh?&nbsp; = Could&nbsp; be&nbsp; interesting.&nbsp; I'll<BR>
have to try it.<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
[INFO] -- Access Manager:<BR>
_______________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
NOTICE TO RECIPIENT:  THIS E-MAIL IS  MEANT FOR ONLY THE INTENDED RECIPIENT OF THE TRANSMISSION, AND MAY BE A COMMUNICATION PRIVILEGED BY LAW.  IF YOU RECEIVED THIS E-MAIL IN ERROR, ANY REVIEW, USE, DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING OF THIS E-MAIL IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED.  PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY OF THE ERROR BY RETURN E-MAIL AND PLEASE DELETE THIS MESSAGE FROM YOUR SYSTEM. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR COOPERATION.<BR>
<BR>
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFE2B5.BFD6F29A--------------------------------Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:27:38 PSTFrom: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)Subject: Re: Re : Drug Drug (was : Risk perception)In mail you write:> Leonard Erickson wrote :->> An item I've encountered in several "dark future" type stories is a>> "drug" that "hyper-sensitizes" the pain nerves. >> >> Is that sort of thing likely/possible?> Very.>> From the top end :-> Suppress the inhibitory action of the periaqueductal gray matter and the> thalamus.> Thalamic pain syndromes (a common sequel of strokes) are awful, and> difficult to treat.Ok.> Selectively suppress 'gatekeeper' neurones in the spinal cord. There's> been some work with antibodies to knock out substance P producing> neurones which have been implicated in chronic pain syndromes. Wipe out> or suppress the enkephalin/endorphin producing neurones in the cord> instead.Sounds a bit irreversible...> A more exotic option is producing synaesthesia - mixing of sensory> modalities. Ciguatera poisoning often causes inversion of peripheral> temperature sensation (hot and cold reversed) as well as difficult to> treat neuropathic pain.Very interesting.The reversible ones sound like they'd work for some types of "nasty"government.Judge: "You've been sentenced to one week."PC (aside to lawyer): "Gee, that doesn't sound to bad."Lawyer, realizing PC doesn't understand: "He doesn't mean a week of	imprisonment, we don't waste spce that way. He means a week of	pain amplification."I assume that either something like a high tech Norplant, or a lockedon dose metering bracelet will do the trick.- -- Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferredleonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort------------------------------Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:12:37 PSTFrom: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)Subject: Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?In mail you write:> An aside on the weirdness of Oregon.  Portland has one of the highest> percentages of nude bars (as in nude dancers, not nudist patrons). One of> the reasons it persists despite complains from the 'moral' populace?  In> Oregon, Nude dacing is 'constitutionally protected freedom of expression'.> Nothing earth shattering here, I just think it's kinda strange.We also have the nude beach at Rooster Rock state park. And as Irecall, the law regarding public nudity is such that you can go nudeanywhere that you would expect people who might be offended to bearound. Which means that if you are in an "isolated" area and nudesunbathing, skinny-dipping, or whatever, and Ms.Grundy stumblles acrossyou, *she* is the one who has to apologize. :-)Obtrav: different customs/taboos on some world can throw players or a loop.- -- Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferredleonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort------------------------------Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:28:29 -0700From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2696Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:> On 30 Jun 00, at 2:03, Jussi Kenkkild wrote:> > > Considering the other sub-threads of this gun-weave, maybe a new kind of Body> > Pistol with enough punch to satisfy the gun-craziest of merc characters.> > Okay, this is the "Sane" design. I'm still working on the "Approved by > Ditzie" variant. [Phoenix Enterprises 10mm PW-1015 Special snipped]Hmmm... this looks good, but MTU is relatively low tech. Anyone want to take a stab at a TL 12 body pistol for me? My only requirements are loaded mass under 1.5kg, overall length under 15cm, near-guaranteed killwith two hits to Joe Average at point-blank range, and an ammunition suitable for use in other weapons (e.g. auto pistols) as well as the BP. - -Russell B------------------------------Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:49:18 -0400From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>Subject: RE: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?Tod Glenn wrote:>My park can beat up your park?Nah, I just had to stand up for the parks in the east. You just seemedawfully smug and all. :)>And I bet your cute redhead shaves her legs, doesn't wear tie-die or>Birkenstocks, and has never been to a "Grateful Dead" concert.  She doesn't>'twirl', have a 'meat is murder' bumper sticker on her 20 year old Volvo or>thing that Ronald Reagan, IS the anti-christ (OK, maybe that last one).  I>doubt she wears Pechulie oil (sp?), or has a friend who a real-live active>anarchist.  Leonard, am I making this up?Well, I have to admit that she didn't appear to fit that description.Personally, I'd consider that to be a good thing. While I know nothing aboutNew York's anarchists, Philadelphia's anarchists (and other assortedradicals) seem like pretty good folks, and they're active enough for mytastes.>Personally, I doubt if I could live anywhere east of the Mississippi.  I>need my space.  Some people actually like to live in places like New York.>>"east is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet"Nah, while I like New York, I wouldn't want to live there. I lovePhiladelphia a little too much. On the other hand, I do think that New Yorkis unaparalleled by any other major city in some areas. The MetropolitanMuseum of Art is a fine example of the sort of thing that I mean.------------------------------Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:53:13 -0700From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com>Subject: Re: Juries (was risk perception)>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>>>I give an example of this from a documentary I remember seeing.  the >facts may be munged, but the gist is accurate (this is arguably a >good reason for juries, depending on your point of view).>>A scumbag is arrested for molesting a young teenage boy.  The father >waits for the day when the molester is being taken to court and lies >in wait for him.  As the officers are escorting him to court, the >father, while being filmed in the act, guns down the man who >molested his son.>>Subsequently, the father is charged with murder and brought to >trial.  The facts are incontrovertable.  Yet the jury decides that >the man is 'not guilty' despite the instructions of the judge. "If >you find that the events as presented by the prosecution are true, >etc...then you must find the defendant guilty" (not true).  Juries >has the power to ignore all the evidence if they choose.  I suppose >some would consider this 'justice' as opposed to 'law'.  I'm not >sure I disagree.It works both ways.I served on a jury for a real estate case.  After the trial some of the jurors were interviewed by a research group doing work on jury decision-making.  One of the jurors had served on a jury before (as an alternate) and this is what she said about that trial:It was a murder trial.  There was a lot of controversy on whether the defendant was guilty.  Despite the "multitude of shadow of doubts" the jury decided the defendant was guilty.  In the sentencing the jury decided on the minimum because "THEY WERE NOT SURE HE HAD DONE IT".When you have a jury trial it is like rolling dice.______________________________________________________________Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com------------------------------Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:18:43 PSTFrom: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & VelocityIn mail you write:> The ALCLAD report (I only have bits of this, I am trying to get the whole> thing) which was meant to be study of the effectiveness of body armor.  It> coincedentally established the typical ranges at which rifle fire occurs and> the controversial fact that massed unaimed fire was as if not more effective> than aimed fire.If you actually stop and *think* about it, it's not hard to figure out.Aimed fire is going to tend to concentrated on more "noticeable"figures in the opposing "line", so less noticeable folks won't getaimed at, at all.Also, misses will tend to be near misses. So bullets will tend to be"clustered". But with "volley fire" or the like, the bullets will be more evenlydistributed. Also, I daresay you'll get a larger percentage of yourtroops *to* fire if they merely have to "aim downrange".- -- Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferredleonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort------------------------------Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:28:06 PSTFrom: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)Subject: Re: ratsIn mail you write:> on 6/29/00 9:52 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:>>> A ferret would be "interesting" as a pet on board ship. It'd be great>> for getting at vermin, and rendering the ship properly "ferret proof">> would *greatly* restrict the ability of many "vermin" to hide on the>> ship. >> A rat wouldn't be bad either.  Not a hunter, of course, but I am surprised> at what good and entertaining pets they make, thanks to my daughters rat> 'whiskers'.  They take up little space, are fastidious, eat anything you do> (and a lot you don't), are extremely playful and really really smart (dog> smart) and can be trained.  Now just hop on down to GenDye and get that> genetically enhanced, super intelligent one.  just don't ever let it breed,> or they'll be running the show in a few years.Yep, I've known a few pet rats over the years.> Strange pets.>> I had a character, a high ranking noble and former Navy type.  I decided at> the outset that the character was terminal as a complication of an old head> wound.  He was a big prankster, and slightly off kilter.  His 'pet' was a> genetically altered, hyper-intelligent platypus named Percy.  As the end> neared, he decide he wanted Percy to inherit.  Adopting him wouldn't work> for the titles, so he just acknowledged Percy as his illegitimate son.Were you aware that the platypus is the only venomous "mammal"?- -- Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferredleonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort------------------------------Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:29:57 PSTFrom: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)Subject: Re: risk perceptionIn mail you write:> Yep, despite what Judges tell you, that's very much a part of US > law, and one I highly approve of.  I do hope that someday I get > called to jury duty on a drug possession or dealing case.  Since I > don't see either as being a crime I'd vote to acquit regardless of > evidence until the rest of the jury got tired and agreed with me :)I wouldn't advise that. You see, part of the voir dire process thesedays usually involves asking you (under oath) if you intend to ruleaccording to the law or not. There's been at least one case of a jurordoing *exactly* what you propose to do and then being prosecuted for*perjury*.I think that for drug cases they also ask if you disapprove of the druglaws. Which could get you into the same bind.Personally, I think those questions shouldn't be allowed.- -- Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferredleonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort------------------------------End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2697***********************************To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:unsubscribe traveller-digestin the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail iscoming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append thataddress to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe"local-traveller":subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.netA non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; tosubscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"in the commands above with "traveller".Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>Received: from  rly-ye04.mx.aol.com (rly-ye04.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.201]) by air-ye02.mx.aol.com (v75.18) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:10:27 -0400Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-ye04.mx.aol.com (v75.18) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:09:59 -0400Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id OAA90527;	Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:09:09 -0400 (EDT)	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:07:24 -0400Received: (from majordom@localhost)	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id OAA90437	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:07:24 -0400 (EDT)	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:07:24 -0400 (EDT)Message-Id: <200006301807.OAA90437@lists.imagiconline.com>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.comSubject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2697Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.comSender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2698</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 30 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2698<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Antimatter<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
re:  New Traveller Site<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
sleeper ships<BR>
re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: Slavery<BR>
jury nullification (was: Re: risk perception)<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
HG squadron<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Weather, and critters too (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.)<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: sleeper ships<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 02:02:58 +0800<BR>
From: Nattrass <wulfren@iinet.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
Speaking of guns related to hollywood, and in itself a useless piece of trivia:<BR>
 the m41-a assault rifle from the movie Aliens, used by the marines was a<BR>
cut down tommy gun with a case over the top.<BR>
Ah but you say the m41-a was supposed to fire 10mm, light armour piercing<BR>
caseless rounds which is obviously not native to teh tommy, well with some<BR>
careful camera work most of the discarded casings were removed from the<BR>
movie, and for die hard fans like myself, who time the amount of time that<BR>
it takes from the point where bishop announces the eta of the dropship to<BR>
the time where it actually arrives (yes they do spend around 16 minutes<BR>
getting to him)... if you did as I did and went through looking at it frame<BR>
by frame, you see the casings flying out of the rifle.<BR>
<BR>
this has been another pointless piece of trivia in the name of...  uh....<BR>
drunkeness?<BR>
<BR>
In my talons I shape clay.....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:14:46 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
<BR>
on 6/30/00 10:49 AM, Chris Seamans at semo@pil.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>> And I bet your cute redhead shaves her legs, doesn't wear tie-die or<BR>
>> Birkenstocks, and has never been to a "Grateful Dead" concert.  She doesn't<BR>
>> 'twirl', have a 'meat is murder' bumper sticker on her 20 year old Volvo or<BR>
>> thing that Ronald Reagan, IS the anti-christ (OK, maybe that last one).  I<BR>
>> doubt she wears Pechulie oil (sp?), or has a friend who a real-live active<BR>
>> anarchist.  Leonard, am I making this up?<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, I have to admit that she didn't appear to fit that description.<BR>
> Personally, I'd consider that to be a good thing. While I know nothing about<BR>
<BR>
So do I.  We have more than enough earth-mommas and hippie throwbacks  (male<BR>
and female) for the whole country.  Apparently western Oregon must be some<BR>
sort of national preserve.  When has communes from the 60s that are still<BR>
going, and tie-die has never gone out of fashion .<BR>
<BR>
As far as anarchists, we have the real thing.  Not trendy neo-liberal types.<BR>
These ones would be throwing bombs if they had them.  Remember the WTO<BR>
protest in Seattle.  Most of those nut-bars were from Eugene, a town an hour<BR>
south of Portland.  These people have their semi-monthly riot, and I expect<BR>
that the Eugene police dept is as experienced in riot control as any major<BR>
metropolis like New York, LA, etc.<BR>
<BR>
> Nah, while I like New York, I wouldn't want to live there. I love<BR>
> Philadelphia a little too much. On the other hand, I do think that New York<BR>
> is unaparalleled by any other major city in some areas. The Metropolitan<BR>
> Museum of Art is a fine example of the sort of thing that I mean.<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure New York, etc is full of very nice people.  I've met many friendly<BR>
New Yorkers.  But the city has a certain bruskness.  And I'm not used to the<BR>
word F**k being a noun, verb, adverb and adjective, and used all by it self<BR>
to make a sentence.  (OK, a former New Yorker co-worker is reading this as I<BR>
type it and has corrected me.  He's says its "the f**king mooks from Jersey<BR>
that talk like that".<BR>
<BR>
Every place has it's own special charm ("except possibly Newark"--he said<BR>
that, not me.)<BR>
<BR>
Really, my ideal place.  Africa.  Too much Capstick I suppose.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:17:15 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
on 6/30/00 11:28 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Strange pets.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I had a character, a high ranking noble and former Navy type.  I decided at<BR>
>> the outset that the character was terminal as a complication of an old head<BR>
>> wound.  He was a big prankster, and slightly off kilter.  His 'pet' was a<BR>
>> genetically altered, hyper-intelligent platypus named Percy.  As the end<BR>
>> neared, he decide he wanted Percy to inherit.  Adopting him wouldn't work<BR>
>> for the titles, so he just acknowledged Percy as his illegitimate son.<BR>
> <BR>
> Were you aware that the platypus is the only venomous "mammal"?<BR>
<BR>
Poison 'spurs' on the male.  Used in mating times, IIRC. And I thought that<BR>
the platypus was a montreme, and not technically a mammal.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone out there know?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:21:11 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
on 6/30/00 11:18 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
\> If you actually stop and *think* about it, it's not hard to figure out.<BR>
> <BR>
> Aimed fire is going to tend to concentrated on more "noticeable"<BR>
> figures in the opposing "line", so less noticeable folks won't get<BR>
> aimed at, at all.<BR>
> <BR>
> Also, misses will tend to be near misses. So bullets will tend to be<BR>
> "clustered". <BR>
> <BR>
> But with "volley fire" or the like, the bullets will be more evenly<BR>
> distributed. Also, I daresay you'll get a larger percentage of your<BR>
> troops *to* fire if they merely have to "aim downrange".<BR>
<BR>
As someone posted here recently (paraphrased).  "I'm not worried about the<BR>
bullet with my name on it.  I'm worried about the thousands out there marked<BR>
'to whom it may concern'"  I suppose a more modern vernacular would be<BR>
marked 'occupant'.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 02:13:23 +0800<BR>
From: Nattrass <wulfren@iinet.net.au><BR>
Subject: Antimatter<BR>
<BR>
query as to containment of antimatter.<BR>
Obviously the good ol gravitic/magnetic field would stop the antimatter from<BR>
contacting any matter but I was wondering if there are any other means to<BR>
contain it, or is it inert unless it comes in contact with the matter<BR>
particle that was created at the same time as it....<BR>
<BR>
any ideas?<BR>
In my talons I shape clay.....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:28:10 -0700<BR>
From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
on 6/30/2000 11:29 AM, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I think that for drug cases they also ask if you disapprove of the drug<BR>
> laws. Which could get you into the same bind.<BR>
<BR>
That's true. I was called for jury duty a couple years ago, and after<BR>
reading the charge ("possession of a glass pipe," believe it or not), the<BR>
judge said that it was a drug case and asked if anybody had a problem with<BR>
that. I said I did, since the prospective jurors are under oath. The judge<BR>
was so angry I was worried that he would throw _me_ in jail!<BR>
- -- <BR>
                              Ken Hagler<BR>
<BR>
|          ICQ#: 34591293         |   For PGP key send mail with  |<BR>
|   http://www.orange-road.com/   |    subject "Send PGP Key".    |<BR>
|   It's like an irony of fate; Things never turn out as I wish   |<BR>
|   It's just like an irony of fate; It kills me --Mari Iijima    |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:29:53 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/30/00 11:02 AM, Nattrass at wulfren@iinet.net.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Speaking of guns related to hollywood, and in itself a useless piece of<BR>
> trivia:<BR>
> the m41-a assault rifle from the movie Aliens, used by the marines was a<BR>
> cut down tommy gun with a case over the top.<BR>
<BR>
You forgot about the Franchi SPAS-12 for the grenade launcher.<BR>
<BR>
> Ah but you say the m41-a was supposed to fire 10mm, light armour piercing<BR>
> caseless rounds which is obviously not native to teh tommy, well with some<BR>
> careful camera work most of the discarded casings were removed from the<BR>
> movie, and for die hard fans like myself, who time the amount of time that<BR>
> it takes from the point where bishop announces the eta of the dropship to<BR>
> the time where it actually arrives (yes they do spend around 16 minutes<BR>
> getting to him)... if you did as I did and went through looking at it frame<BR>
> by frame, you see the casings flying out of the rifle.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
If you watch the various 'Star Wars' movies, you'll note the storm troopers<BR>
weapons are merely Sterling carbines with a scope and short 10-round<BR>
magazine.  If you watch carefully, you can see brass flying.<BR>
<BR>
Conversely, I've seen quite a few scenes where 'modern' weapons are fired an<BR>
there is no brass.  Some companies have taken to using full-auto prop guns<BR>
that are powered by propane, and thus require not complicated federal tax<BR>
stamps, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:40:53 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I wouldn't advise that. You see, part of the voir dire process these<BR>
> days usually involves asking you (under oath) if you intend to rule<BR>
> according to the law or not. There's been at least one case of a juror<BR>
> doing *exactly* what you propose to do and then being prosecuted for<BR>
> *perjury*.<BR>
> <BR>
> I think that for drug cases they also ask if you disapprove of the drug<BR>
> laws. Which could get you into the same bind.<BR>
> <BR>
> Personally, I think those questions shouldn't be allowed.<BR>
<BR>
Of course they should.  I don't want to be involved in any case, on either<BR>
side, where I don't even know what the applicable laws are, because the<BR>
jurors decided to throw them out and rule on their own feelings.<BR>
Juries are part of the judicial branch.  They follow the law.  Legislators<BR>
make law.  Anyone who has a problem with the law should bring it to the<BR>
attention of a legislator.  I hope the author of the post you were<BR>
replying to has already done that.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:41:04 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  New Traveller Site<BR>
<BR>
>From: Billye Gilbert <idrea_starryeyes@yahoo.com><BR>
><BR>
>I like to annouce my web site devoted to TRAVELLER.<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget to put it on the Traveller Web Ring!<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:46:39 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
>You must bear in mind that living in the UK, I have never <BR>
>even *seen* a realgun and can only go by what I read. <BR>
<BR>
You ... must ... come ... to ... America .... <BR>
to ... Oregon .... Oregon ... Orregoon ...<BR>
to Mark Cook's home....<BR>
in Orrregooon......<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:03:18 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: sleeper ships<BR>
<BR>
I always viewed the Terran sleeper ships as various ethnic groups moving <BR>
someplace where they would be assimilated.<BR>
YKMV<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
"We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued<BR>
other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and<BR>
rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." - James D. Nicoll<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:08:46 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
>Then why does the Imperium, at least in CT & MT, include <BR>
>the draft? The draft is slavery the only real difference<BR>
>is who your owner is. <BR>
<BR>
The draft is simply excluded from the definition of<BR>
slavery.  The government (Imperial or local) can always<BR>
conscript people to serve the needs of the state.  A<BR>
particular conscription system (either Imperial or local)<BR>
may conceivably run afoul of the edict banning slavery; it<BR>
depends on how the conscription system operates<BR>
(conscription to serve the government for life, for<BR>
example, would be something of a red flag).  The regular<BR>
Imperial conscription system has long been accepted as not<BR>
constituting slavery.<BR>
<BR>
>Given that being drafted in CT [1] can result in <BR>
>becoming a Merchant or an Other than the Imperial draft is<BR>
<BR>
>not only a military draft but also a civilian draft. <BR>
<BR>
I think you're over-reading the character generation rules.<BR>
 If you fail to enlist in whichever career path you<BR>
attempt, you have to roll the dice to see where you end up.<BR>
 If you end up in the Army, Navy, Marines, or Scouts, you<BR>
should consider yourself to have been drafted.  If you end<BR>
up in the Merchant path, you were recruited (although I<BR>
guess a press gang is not impossible, and that would be<BR>
slavery).  If you end up in the Other, you just drifted<BR>
into a life of petty criminality.  <BR>
<BR>
When the character generation system says that you must<BR>
subject yourself to the draft, it doesn't literally mean<BR>
that the Imperium drafts citizens into petty criminal<BR>
organizations or merchant fleets.<BR>
<BR>
>If a CT character rolls 12's on his reenlistment roll than<BR>
>he  _has_ to reenlist "due to the needs of the service". <BR>
<BR>
Again, don't over-read.  In the military services, it is<BR>
entirely possible that you won't be permitted to leave when<BR>
you want; that's part of military service.  In any other<BR>
services, mandatory re-enlistment is to be interpreted in<BR>
some way that makes sense -- militarization of a merchant<BR>
fleet during wartime, for example.  <BR>
<BR>
>[2] By the Imperium's definitions the draft and forced <BR>
>reenlistment for the needs of the service is apparently <BR>
>not slavery. Apparently forcing people to work for you and<BR>
<BR>
>not letting them quit is not chattel slavery under <BR>
>Imperial law. This seems to me to be just another example <BR>
>of the hypocrisy and unjustness of the Third Imperium. <BR>
<BR>
You sound sort of bitter about that.  I think IMoJ would<BR>
like to audit your hard drive.  They'll have a subpoena,<BR>
good and legal.  Please step away from the keyboard now,<BR>
sir.<BR>
<BR>
>In reality the CT Draft rule was written before the <BR>
>Imperium was created and was most likely simply ported <BR>
>into future Traveller products without considering the<BR>
>conflict between the Draft and the Imperium's 'No chattel<BR>
>slavery' rule.<BR>
<BR>
See my analysis above that reconciles such a conflict.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:32:43 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery<BR>
<BR>
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
><BR>
>I don't think that any of the Imperial forces actually<BR>
>draft anyone, although I'm not prepared to back that up <BR>
>with canonical references. <BR>
<BR>
I generally agree with Hans' post on this subject, except<BR>
for this idea.  The membership treaty between the Imperium<BR>
and a given member state sets forth specific obligations of<BR>
one to the other.  The member state ordinarily agrees to<BR>
pay taxes and provide military forces.  The specifics of<BR>
that commitment vary widely.  Citizens of high-tech<BR>
high-pop worlds may be subject to direct Imperial draft, as<BR>
well as the local draft.  A low-tech low-pop world may be<BR>
exempted from providing any military forces for a period of<BR>
decades or even centuries.  <BR>
<BR>
Like Hans, I don't have any canonical support for this<BR>
idea.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:51:59 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: jury nullification (was: Re: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
No one has yet mentioned the most famous jury nullification<BR>
case, which involved John Peter Zenger.  I've forgotten the<BR>
case name; probably Rex v. Zenger.  Zenger published a<BR>
seditious newspaper in New York in the 1740s, as I recall. <BR>
The British government prosecuted him for sedition.  The<BR>
case was really open and shut and jury should have<BR>
convicted.  The jurors, all colonials, acquitted.  Thus<BR>
jury nullification has remained an important part of our<BR>
revolutionary heritage.<BR>
<BR>
In Berkeley, California, in the 1990s, there was a guy<BR>
called The Naked Guy because he walked around naked all the<BR>
time, along with a couple of equally unclothed<BR>
co-conspirators.  Being naked in public was a misdemeanor<BR>
under the applicable law, requiring a jury, and trial would<BR>
have to take place in Berkeley under the venue rules.  The<BR>
City of Berkeley arrested and prosecuted him and his<BR>
co-conspirators more than once, but could not get a<BR>
conviction.  Eventually, the City changed the law so that<BR>
being naked was only an infraction, which carried a lesser<BR>
sentence (just a fine, I think) and therefore did not<BR>
trigger the right to a jury trial.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Traveller:  Imperial courts don't use juries in my<BR>
Traveller universe.  There is a panel of one or more judges<BR>
who hear the evidence and legal arguments and then confer<BR>
among themselves.  On member states, anything can happen.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:00:18 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"<BR>
><a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
<BR>
>Again, based on 20 year old legal training, yes a jury can<BR>
>do this. However, it's moderated by a judge's power to set<BR>
<BR>
>aside a jury verdict (ie the judge  can say "You got it <BR>
>wrong and I'm changing the verdict").<BR>
<BR>
In the United States, the judge can't change a verdict of<BR>
acquittal.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:08:02 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: HG squadron<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"<BR>
><a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
<BR>
Cool. Have you tested it against the squadrons developed by<BR>
that guy whose name I can't remember who won all of the<BR>
early TCS tournaments?  (That's vague as can be; check the<BR>
JTAS site for further discussion.)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:18:37 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>I wouldn't advise that. You see, part of the voir dire <BR>
>process these days usually involves asking you (under <BR>
>oath) if you intend to rule according to the law or not.<BR>
>There's been at least one case of a juror doing *exactly* <BR>
>what you propose to do and then being prosecuted for<BR>
>*perjury*.<BR>
>I think that for drug cases they also ask if you<BR>
>disapprove of the drug laws. Which could get you into the<BR>
>same bind. Personally, I think those questions shouldn't <BR>
>be allowed.<BR>
<BR>
The argument in defense to the perjury charge is that jury<BR>
nullification is part of the law -- or at the very least,<BR>
the juror reasonably believed so at the time of the oath<BR>
and during the trial (probably based on reading the TML). <BR>
Perjury is, after all, the crime of intentionally stating<BR>
something that is not true under oath.  There is no<BR>
negligent perjury.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:26:51 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/30/00 11:17 AM, webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Poison 'spurs' on the male.  Used in mating times, IIRC. And I thought that<BR>
> the platypus was a montreme, and not technically a mammal.<BR>
> <BR>
> Anyone out there know?<BR>
<BR>
They are monotremes, but monotremes /are/ mammals. Just the egg-laying type.<BR>
IIRC echidnas and just one or two other critters are monotremes. Echidnas<BR>
are awful cute, sort of like hedgehogs.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:27:59 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:35:31 -0400 (EDT), shadow@krypton.rain.com<BR>
(Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Warning: this is posted both to the Traveller List and the the<BR>
>Traveller Culture list. Replies probably belong on the latter.<BR>
<BR>
Reply copied to both, in case the much larger number of<BR>
subscribers on the TML want to discuss it - but you are<BR>
encouraged to participate on Traveller-Culture as well...<BR>
<BR>
>I was doing some reading about Roman society, and noted something that<BR>
>I'm wondering what the Imperial reaction to would be.<BR>
<BR>
>The head of the family had the power of life and death over his<BR>
>children. *Forever*.<BR>
<BR>
>That is, if he decided you were a disgrace to the house, and your were<BR>
>50 years old, he could still have you killed *legally*. <BR>
<BR>
>I'm wondering how this would play on a world in the Imperium (and trust<BR>
>me, with that many worlds, *somebody* is bound to try re-creating<BR>
>Rome!). <BR>
<BR>
>Would they consider it a "local law", or would they decide it amounted<BR>
>to some sort of slavery? <BR>
<BR>
I agree with your "local law" assessment.  Also, "some sort" of<BR>
slavery isn't what the Imperium is interested in; when I wrote<BR>
the Warrant of Restoration, I specifically said "chattel<BR>
slavery".  In both Imperium and game terms, the point of that was<BR>
to give an "out" for things that could be argued either way in<BR>
the slavery debate - such as indenture, servitude as penalty for<BR>
failure to retire debt (really just forced indenture), peonage,<BR>
servitude as a criminal penalty, and so on.<BR>
<BR>
>I tend towards "local law" myself. Though it'd get *real* interesting<BR>
>if the Pater Familias decided that a son (or grandson) needed to be<BR>
>killed and they were offworld. Would he have to get them extradited?<BR>
>Would the world they were on extradite them?<BR>
<BR>
IMTU Yes, extradition would be necessary - and whether the<BR>
"refuge world" (i.e., the one on which the extraditee is located)<BR>
would extradite is open, and dependent on local law and culture,<BR>
and the nature of any treaties between the two worlds beyond what<BR>
Imperial Law prescribes (IMTU Imperial Law is silent on the issue<BR>
of extradition for local crimes).<BR>
<BR>
>Also, I know the Imperium is against slavery. But is it allowable to<BR>
>*sell* yourself into to "slavery" via a contract? How about one that<BR>
>places limits on what you can or can't be made to do? Would that be<BR>
>illegal? <BR>
<BR>
Not in Imperial law.  It's not chattel slavery.  It's an<BR>
indenture, and _that_ may be illegal elsewhere, and as a result,<BR>
the holder of an indenture may not be able to take his indentured<BR>
amanuensis to certain worlds (consider some of the slave cases<BR>
that led up to the U.S. War of Secession), but it's not the<BR>
prohibited chattel slavery.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:31:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Weather, and critters too (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.)<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: There's got to be at least one planet where, like Canada,<BR>
> the weather qualifies as a serious topic for discussions that can<BR>
> last 30 minutes or more.<BR>
><BR>
> Ethan<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I like Thorwald.  There is a description in one of the trav books about the<BR>
Leyden tree, which uses captured electricity from thunderstorms ("a<BR>
spectacular sight, best viewed from a safe distance").  This led to the<BR>
storms on Thorwald discussion.  The rainy season (lots of rain, understand<BR>
Noah in a whole new way), the windy season (stream-lined buildings for those<BR>
250 mph gusts) and so one.<BR>
<BR>
Then there are the various life forms. The Thorwald Dragon, a beautiful<BR>
reptilian carnivore which stuns/kills it prey with any of several<BR>
electrically conductive 'tongues' which it shoots, chameleon-like at its<BR>
prey.  It build up a charge buy stroking its neck spines on the leyden tree,<BR>
the charge being stored in its 'bloof' organ (Keith Laumer again rears his<BR>
head).<BR>
<BR>
Then there is the Thorwaldian Thragr, a carnivore chaser/hunter that looks<BR>
like a cross between a Rottweiler and a Komodo Dragon.  It 'smells' and<BR>
touches things with its semi-prehensile purple tongue, which it can extend<BR>
up to 2 meters.  It has a massively powerful bony head, lined with wickedly<BR>
sharp teeth set in rows like a shark.  It has a fairy primitive digestive<BR>
system, so feeds frequently (and has large stools with that distinctive<BR>
'carnivore' smell).  The thragr is not particularly bright in the wild, but<BR>
operates in small packs and cooperates well enough to make it the 'bad boy'<BR>
hunter of Thorwald.<BR>
<BR>
The thragr has been bred in captivity for several hundred years, and these<BR>
domesticated beasts are prized a guard animals.  They are much smaller that<BR>
their wild cousins, and quite a bit more intelligent (but buy no means the<BR>
'sharpest tool in the shed' in the animal kingdom).  They are extremely<BR>
loyal to their masters, and can be easily trained to be vicious attack<BR>
animals.  Such animals are likely to not only attack, but also eat their<BR>
target.  Identification of the remains will be aided buy the thragr's simple<BR>
gut, so don't plan on using it to hide any murder victim.<BR>
<BR>
Thragrs are highly resistant to damage, owing to a powerful musculature,<BR>
tough hide, bony head and relatively small brain.  The bulk of the head is<BR>
jaw muscle.  Thragrs cannot be electrocuted in any normal sense.<BR>
<BR>
Well, there's a segue for you.  weather leads to beast?<BR>
<BR>
What the heck<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:41:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/30/00 1:18 PM, gmgoffin@yahoo.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> <BR>
>> I wouldn't advise that. You see, part of the voir dire<BR>
>> process these days usually involves asking you (under<BR>
>> oath) if you intend to rule according to the law or not.<BR>
>> There's been at least one case of a juror doing *exactly*<BR>
>> what you propose to do and then being prosecuted for<BR>
>> *perjury*.<BR>
>> I think that for drug cases they also ask if you<BR>
>> disapprove of the drug laws. Which could get you into the<BR>
>> same bind. Personally, I think those questions shouldn't<BR>
>> be allowed.<BR>
> <BR>
> The argument in defense to the perjury charge is that jury<BR>
> nullification is part of the law -- or at the very least,<BR>
> the juror reasonably believed so at the time of the oath<BR>
> and during the trial (probably based on reading the TML).<BR>
> Perjury is, after all, the crime of intentionally stating<BR>
> something that is not true under oath.  There is no<BR>
> negligent perjury.<BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Cool, my lawyer would have something to work with then, because I would<BR>
certainly not return a verdict of guilty in a case where I thought the law<BR>
was contrary to the Constitution. But then again I ignore jury summons in<BR>
protest of the government. Still have yet to be pestered by them for the<BR>
times I have ignored their call.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:01:42 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: sleeper ships<BR>
<BR>
Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I always viewed the Terran sleeper ships as various ethnic groups moving<BR>
> someplace where they would be assimilated.<BR>
<BR>
Don't you mean "where they could _avoid_ assimilation into the dominant<BR>
culture"?<BR>
<BR>
> YKMV<BR>
<BR>
Ah.  Another metric maven.<BR>
> <BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
> "We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued<BR>
> other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and<BR>
> rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." - James D. Nicoll<BR>
<BR>
Now _that's_ a .sig file quote!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2698<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 30 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2699<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
RE: HG squadron<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re:  risk perception OT:<BR>
Re:  risk perception OT:<BR>
Re: risk perception OT:<BR>
Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
Re: sleeper ships<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
RE: sleeper ships<BR>
Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
RE: Slavery?<BR>
RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:13:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >You must bear in mind that living in the UK, I have never<BR>
> >even *seen* a realgun and can only go by what I read.<BR>
><BR>
> You ... must ... come ... to ... America ....<BR>
> to ... Oregon .... Oregon ... Orregoon ...<BR>
> to Mark Cook's home....<BR>
> in Orrregooon......<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Yes, indeed.  Come out our way and we'll will fix this gap in your<BR>
education. I also am in Oregon (Portland Suburb of Beaverton).  Not only do<BR>
I have 'enough guns' for you to shoot (i.e.  I'm not exactly sure how many I<BR>
have.)  We also have Mark, as mentioned above who is, I believe in Albany,<BR>
an hour south of Portland.  IIRC, Mark is an officer of the Albany Rifle and<BR>
Pistol Club.<BR>
<BR>
Glenn, It sounds like you have been up this way before.  Next time you make<BR>
it up this way we should meet.  Perhaps arrange an 'educational' shoot with<BR>
Mark, then game a little just to put all that experience to use.  In the<BR>
late summer, Hermiston watermelons get down to under $.08 a lb and this make<BR>
for a nice end to a day of shooting.  Eat watermelon and/or shoot<BR>
watermelon.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:19:31 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: HG squadron<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"<BR>
> ><a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
><BR>
> Cool. Have you tested it against the squadrons developed by<BR>
> that guy whose name I can't remember who won all of the<BR>
> early TCS tournaments?  (That's vague as can be; check the<BR>
> JTAS site for further discussion.)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
IIRC, one of the big winners of the PBM TCS games turned out to be a<BR>
computer program.. Does anyone remember the details of this?.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:26:27 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> I wouldn't advise that. You see, part of the voir dire process these<BR>
> days usually involves asking you (under oath) if you intend to rule<BR>
> according to the law or not.<BR>
<BR>
Then don't take the oath at the start of the proceedings.<BR>
<BR>
At the start of the jury process when the judge asks the prospective<BR>
jurors "Do you swear, etc". Simply reply "I don't know."<BR>
Say it loudly and clearly enough so the jurors surrounding you <BR>
can hear you (and can so testify later) As the judge swears multiple <BR>
people at the same time he will most likely not hear (and possibly <BR>
punish) you. Then simply conduct your subsequent answers on the <BR>
assumption that you are not under oath as you have not sworn it. :)<BR>
<BR>
Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice.<BR>
The previous answer was presented for amusement purposes<BR>
only. Do _not_ try it in the real world. Professional driver on<BR>
a closed course. Contempt of court charges may be closer than <BR>
they appear.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:29:37 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  risk perception OT:<BR>
<BR>
Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> That's true. I was called for jury duty a couple years ago, and after<BR>
> reading the charge ("possession of a glass pipe," believe it or not), the<BR>
> judge said that it was a drug case and asked if anybody had a problem with<BR>
> that. I said I did, since the prospective jurors are under oath. The judge<BR>
> was so angry I was worried that he would throw _me_ in jail!<BR>
<BR>
Isn't it a great country where truthfully answering a judges question<BR>
can result in contempt and untruthfully answering the question<BR>
can result in perjury.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps jurors should take the Fifth when questioned.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:41:12 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re:  risk perception OT:<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com> wrote<BR>
> > I said I did, since the prospective jurors are under oath. The judge<BR>
> > was so angry I was worried that he would throw _me_ in jail!<BR>
> <BR>
> Isn't it a great country where truthfully answering a judges question<BR>
> can result in contempt and untruthfully answering the question<BR>
> can result in perjury.<BR>
<BR>
If your fear of people's reactions leads you to lie about your<BR>
own opinions, I advise that you just don't hold opinions.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:52:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception OT:<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/30/00 2:41 PM, gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> If your fear of people's reactions leads you to lie about your<BR>
> own opinions, I advise that you just don't hold opinions.<BR>
<BR>
Wow, may I quote you for a sig file, or are you quoting someone? If so, who?<BR>
That is one darn good proverb. FWIW, I think Peter, like myself, sounds like<BR>
a guy quite willing to take the consequences of having his own mind and was<BR>
just being a tad cynical.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:03:35 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
> As far as anarchists, we have the real thing.  Not trendy neo-liberal<BR>
> types. These ones would be throwing bombs if they had them.  Remember<BR>
> the WTO protest in Seattle.  Most of those nut-bars were from Eugene,<BR>
> a town an hour south of Portland.  These people have their<BR>
> semi-monthly riot, and I expect that the Eugene police dept is as<BR>
> experienced in riot control as any major metropolis like New York, LA,<BR>
> etc.<BR>
<BR>
That's funny, I didn't see any bomb throwing anarchists up in <BR>
Seattle, I saw a large number of peaceful protestors (including labor <BR>
unions, Green Party members, Sierra Club members, and yes <BR>
some actual anarchists) protesting one of the greatest evils of <BR>
modern capitalism (the WTO).  There people were beaten, gassed, <BR>
and otherwise attacked by fascist police.  Sure, things got violent <BR>
after the police attacked.  The police up there were using tactics <BR>
designed to incite a riot not to stop one.  With a riot the cops <BR>
would have an excuse to crack down hard on the protestors and so <BR>
protect the slimeballs at the conference.  It's just like the May Day <BR>
protests here in Portland, except here more folks know that cops <BR>
were the aggressors.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com   <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:00:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: sleeper ships<BR>
<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I always viewed the Terran sleeper ships as various ethnic groups moving<BR>
>someplace where they would be assimilated.<BR>
>YKMV<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.  Your culture, your<BR>
technology will serve the 'Borg."<BR>
    So in other words, the sleeper ships were looking for the 'Borg?<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:15:50 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> >Then why does the Imperium, at least in CT & MT, include <BR>
> >the draft? The draft is slavery the only real difference<BR>
> >is who your owner is. <BR>
<BR>
> The draft is simply excluded from the definition of<BR>
> slavery.  The government (Imperial or local) can always<BR>
> conscript people to serve the needs of the state.  <BR>
<BR>
That depends on how hypocritical and self serving it is.<BR>
If it has a law that says "Neither slavery nor involuntary <BR>
servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party <BR>
shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United <BR>
States, or in any place subject to their jurisdiction."<BR>
as part of its Constitution and then proceeds to institute<BR>
a draft then it is breaking its own highest law. [1]<BR>
<BR>
Moreover I was not aware being a Merchant or an Other served<BR>
the needs of the state.<BR>
<BR>
In the Imperium some early Emperor probably ruled that the<BR>
Draft was not Chattel Slavery and hence did not violate the<BR>
Warrant of Restoration.<BR>
<BR>
> A<BR>
> particular conscription system (either Imperial or local)<BR>
> may conceivably run afoul of the edict banning slavery; it<BR>
> depends on how the conscription system operates<BR>
> (conscription to serve the government for life,<BR>
<BR>
Keep rolling 12's on the renlistment roll, and you are<BR>
serving for life. Fail to make a survival roll (in CT)<BR>
and you are dead, hence you were conscripted to serve<BR>
for life.<BR>
<BR>
> for<BR>
> example, would be something of a red flag).  The regular<BR>
> Imperial conscription system has long been accepted as not<BR>
> constituting slavery.<BR>
<BR>
Apparently not but we have no canon evidence (other than the<BR>
presence of the draft) to confirm this.<BR>
<BR>
> >Given that being drafted in CT [1] can result in <BR>
> >becoming a Merchant or an Other than the Imperial draft is<BR>
> >not only a military draft but also a civilian draft. <BR>
<BR>
> I think you're over-reading the character generation rules.<BR>
<BR>
How so? Character generation rules can be seen as applying<BR>
to NPC's as well as to PC's as in 1001 Characters and Citizens<BR>
of the Imperium two books that are full of NPC's created<BR>
using the character generation system.<BR>
<BR>
>  If you fail to enlist in whichever career path you<BR>
> attempt, you have to roll the dice to see where you end up.<BR>
>  If you end up in the Army, Navy, Marines, or Scouts, you<BR>
> should consider yourself to have been drafted.  <BR>
<BR>
That is not what the text of CT, MT, and T4 says. TNE<BR>
does not have the draft and the Third Imperium is not the<BR>
default setting for TNE.<BR>
<BR>
When we look at the various alien modules we get a better<BR>
picture of how the draft works in non Imperial cultures.<BR>
<BR>
Aslan do not have a draft (although an Aslan who fails an <BR>
enlistment roll must become at Outcast).<BR>
<BR>
K'Kree have a caste system and all males must serve at least<BR>
one term in the military. This is effectively a draft. Subsequent<BR>
careers are controlled by caste. Females are drafted into<BR>
female work. (Naturally the K'kree would not see it this way).<BR>
<BR>
Vargr have a draft.<BR>
<BR>
Zhodani have castes and a draft.<BR>
<BR>
Droyne have castes and sub castes which can be seen as a draft.<BR>
<BR>
The Solomani have a draft.<BR>
<BR>
Hivers have a draft.<BR>
<BR>
Darrians have a draft.<BR>
<BR>
These aliens all can be drafted to non military careers.<BR>
Therefore all these aliens must also all have civilian drafts.<BR>
<BR>
> If you end<BR>
> up in the Merchant path, you were recruited (although I<BR>
> guess a press gang is not impossible, and that would be<BR>
> slavery).  If you end up in the Other, you just drifted<BR>
> into a life of petty criminality.  <BR>
<BR>
A CT Other is not necessarily a petty criminal "Not all<BR>
characters in the Other are ex criminals." [Trav Book p 20]<BR>
I'd say that petty criminals may be better represented in<BR>
CT by Citizens of the Imperium's Rogue career.<BR>
<BR>
> When the character generation system says that you must<BR>
> subject yourself to the draft, it doesn't literally mean<BR>
> that the Imperium drafts citizens into petty criminal<BR>
> organizations or merchant fleets.<BR>
<BR>
"Should an attempt at enlistment fail, the character must<BR>
submit to the draft. Each of the six services has a draft<BR>
number; the draftee rolls one die and enters the service<BR>
with that draft number." [The Traveller Book p 18] That<BR>
sure sounds like the Imperium is drafting citizens into<BR>
petty criminal organizations and merchant fleets.<BR>
<BR>
> >If a CT character rolls 12's on his reenlistment roll than<BR>
> >he  _has_ to reenlist "due to the needs of the service". <BR>
<BR>
> Again, don't over-read.  <BR>
<BR>
Why is this over reading? When a charecter is decorated, commissioned,<BR>
or promoted this (except perhaps in Vargr) is because on<BR>
actions on the part of his employer. Why does this same logic not<BR>
apply in the case of mandatory re-enlistment?<BR>
<BR>
> In the military services, it is<BR>
> entirely possible that you won't be permitted to leave when<BR>
> you want; that's part of military service.  In any other<BR>
> services, mandatory re-enlistment is to be interpreted in<BR>
> some way that makes sense -- militarization of a merchant<BR>
> fleet during wartime, for example.  <BR>
<BR>
It does not matter _why_ the charecter is not permitted to<BR>
quit his job. The point I am trying to make is that when<BR>
_civilians_ are regularly (1/36th of the time) forbidden to<BR>
quit their jobs every four years in a society that purportedly<BR>
does not allow slavery than something is wrong. <BR>
<BR>
> >By the Imperium's definitions the draft and forced <BR>
> >reenlistment for the needs of the service is apparently <BR>
> >not slavery. Apparently forcing people to work for you and<BR>
> >not letting them quit is not chattel slavery under <BR>
> >Imperial law. This seems to me to be just another example <BR>
> >of the hypocrisy and unjustness of the Third Imperium. <BR>
<BR>
> You sound sort of bitter about that.  <BR>
<BR>
Not per se, it is a simple statement of fact. The canon Imperium<BR>
is potentially a repressive place.<BR>
<BR>
> I think IMoJ would<BR>
> like to audit your hard drive.  They'll have a subpoena,<BR>
> good and legal.  <BR>
<BR>
I doubt they need one.<BR>
<BR>
> Please step away from the keyboard now,<BR>
> sir.<BR>
<BR>
[1] To the extent that the courts disagree with me they are wrong.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:26:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> That's funny, I didn't see any bomb throwing anarchists up in<BR>
> Seattle, I saw a large number of peaceful protestors (including labor<BR>
> unions, Green Party members, Sierra Club members, and yes<BR>
> some actual anarchists) protesting one of the greatest evils of<BR>
> modern capitalism (the WTO).  There people were beaten, gassed,<BR>
> and otherwise attacked by fascist police.  Sure, things got violent<BR>
<BR>
Most of the problems were a direct result of the Mayor and police chief's<BR>
failure to accept warnings about a small number of known agitators who were<BR>
planning on attending and take appropriate action.<BR>
> after the police attacked.  The police up there were using tactics<BR>
> designed to incite a riot not to stop one.  With a riot the cops<BR>
> would have an excuse to crack down hard on the protestors and so<BR>
> protect the slimeballs at the conference.  It's just like the May Day<BR>
> protests here in Portland, except here more folks know that cops<BR>
> were the aggressors.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
Hey, John, I AGREE with you about the WTO. Any time that you can get greens,<BR>
anarchist, organized labor and right-wing conservatives to agree that<BR>
something is bad, there's a good chance they're right. But some of our local<BR>
anarchist are not what I would call peaceful protestors.  Peaceful<BR>
protestors do not firebomb police cars. I am sure that if I ask my wife (who<BR>
keeps up on such things), I can provide you with many more examples. Anyone<BR>
who thinks that Portland is a fascist police state missed out on eastern<BR>
Europe from 1945- 1980.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  What about internal dissent in the 3I.  We here about terrorist<BR>
groups like Ine Givar, but are there large, internal groups who practice<BR>
peaceful or not so peaceful protest.  Do we have large, multi-system<BR>
'movements' like the freeman, Posse Comitatus (sp?), ALF, Army of God, KKK<BR>
(OK, Solomani have got this covered), Red Brigade, People for the Unethical<BR>
Murder of Cats Now (PUMpCiN) etc.  Anyone documented various 'domestic<BR>
terrorist' organizations in the 3I?<BR>
<BR>
What do those IBI agents do all day besides work out, write memos and hold<BR>
press conferences?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:28:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: sleeper ships<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >I always viewed the Terran sleeper ships as various ethnic groups moving<BR>
> >someplace where they would be assimilated.<BR>
> >YKMV<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.  Your culture, your<BR>
> technology will serve the 'Borg."<BR>
>     So in other words, the sleeper ships were looking for the 'Borg?<BR>
><BR>
>     I bid you peace.<BR>
><BR>
> Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
<BR>
Naw,<BR>
<BR>
They were just hoping (like every small software company) to get bought up<BR>
by Microsoft so that they could all retire on their options.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:44:01 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > That's funny, I didn't see any bomb throwing anarchists up in<BR>
> > Seattle, I saw a large number of peaceful protestors (including labor<BR>
> > unions, Green Party members, Sierra Club members, and yes<BR>
> > some actual anarchists) protesting one of the greatest evils of<BR>
> > modern capitalism (the WTO).  There people were beaten, gassed,<BR>
> > and otherwise attacked by fascist police.  Sure, things got violent<BR>
> <BR>
> Most of the problems were a direct result of the Mayor and police chief's<BR>
> failure to accept warnings about a small number of known agitators who were<BR>
> planning on attending and take appropriate action.<BR>
<BR>
Nonetheless, blockading public buildings such as hotels and clinics is NOT<BR>
peaceful protest, nor is verbally assaulting persons engaged in their<BR>
business who attempt to enter places of business where they have<BR>
legitimate business.  It never fails to piss me off that the Left endorses<BR>
such tactics vs. the WTO but vilifies them in the case of Operation<BR>
Rescue.<BR>
<BR>
I define "civil disobedience" as CIVIL disobedience-- praying is one<BR>
thing, shouting obscenities and insults and threats is not.  I define<BR>
peaceful protest as NO COERCION-- passive violence is still violence.  I<BR>
despise the casuistry involved in stating that a protest is not violent<BR>
when threats, loud shouting (all classifiable as assault), blockading<BR>
(classifiable as illegal arrest and also as an act of war), and other such<BR>
tactics are used simply because no weapons were carried and the protesters<BR>
didn't throw the first punch.<BR>
<BR>
Someone said that they thought five minutes was about the allowable amount<BR>
of time a picket line can detain someone.  I like that.  It's annoying<BR>
(and hence unlikely to change anyone's mind) but it's not assault and it's<BR>
not unlawful arrest.<BR>
<BR>
If I were blockaded in or out of a building by protesters, I'd sue the<BR>
hell out of them for false arrest, just as I'd charge anyone who threw<BR>
paint on my fur with assault.<BR>
<BR>
> Hey, John, I AGREE with you about the WTO. Any time that you can get<BR>
> greens, anarchist, organized labor and right-wing conservatives to<BR>
> agree that something is bad, there's a good chance they're right. But<BR>
> some of our local anarchist are not what I would call peaceful<BR>
> protestors.  Peaceful protestors do not firebomb police cars. I am<BR>
> sure that if I ask my wife (who keeps up on such things), I can<BR>
> provide you with many more examples. Anyone who thinks that Portland<BR>
> is a fascist police state missed out on eastern Europe from 1945-<BR>
> 1980.<BR>
<BR>
LOL!  A lot of those people are thugs, plain and simple.<BR>
<BR>
Also the thing that bugs me about the whole WTO protest is we NEED an<BR>
international rule of law with respect to trade.  The fact that we don't<BR>
like their decisions means we need to work to find a way to get our<BR>
objections heard legitimately, not disband the organization.  One doesn't<BR>
blockade the White House or call for the congress to be disbanded because<BR>
it passes a stupid law, there are ways to deal with these issues.<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav:  What about internal dissent in the 3I.  We here about terrorist<BR>
> groups like Ine Givar, but are there large, internal groups who practice<BR>
> peaceful or not so peaceful protest.  Do we have large, multi-system<BR>
> 'movements' like the freeman, Posse Comitatus (sp?), ALF, Army of God, KKK<BR>
> (OK, Solomani have got this covered), Red Brigade, People for the Unethical<BR>
> Murder of Cats Now (PUMpCiN) etc.  Anyone documented various 'domestic<BR>
> terrorist' organizations in the 3I?<BR>
<BR>
LOL.  Good question!<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:44:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
> That depends on how hypocritical and self serving it is.<BR>
> If it has a law that says "Neither slavery nor involuntary<BR>
> servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party<BR>
> shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United<BR>
> States, or in any place subject to their jurisdiction."<BR>
> as part of its Constitution and then proceeds to institute<BR>
> a draft then it is breaking its own highest law. [1]<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Playing Devil's advocate:<BR>
<BR>
The draft is not slavery.  You have a choice.  Serve, abandon your<BR>
country/planet/empire or go to prison. Or be a concientious objector.  But<BR>
that requires prior planning.  Many conveniently suddenly discover they are<BR>
COs about the time they are drafted.<BR>
<BR>
Apparently the draft is 'canon'.  IMTU, if you are a CO, you can get<BR>
assigned to a medical unit or some such.  You still get shot at, but you<BR>
don't have to carry that heavy gun. I'll pass.<BR>
<BR>
All-Vol armies are rare, but military forces can be necessary to the<BR>
survival of the nation-state.  Jury duty is also a non-voluntary service<BR>
(albeit a short one).  Otherwise, the citizenry would be too busy enjoying<BR>
their rights to tend to their responsibilities.<BR>
<BR>
I wonder, if the nobility's sense of 'noblesse oblige' includes military<BR>
service (IMTU it does) an if so, does their professionalism and call to<BR>
service serve to reinforce their own sense of importance and increase their<BR>
disdain for conscripts who have to "be drafted to repay some of their debt<BR>
to society".<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:52:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> LOL!  A lot of those people are thugs, plain and simple.<BR>
><BR>
> Also the thing that bugs me about the whole WTO protest is we NEED an<BR>
> international rule of law with respect to trade.  The fact that we don't<BR>
> like their decisions means we need to work to find a way to get our<BR>
> objections heard legitimately, not disband the organization.  One doesn't<BR>
> blockade the White House or call for the congress to be disbanded because<BR>
> it passes a stupid law, there are ways to deal with these issues.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Hi Kiri.  I've seen your posts, but didn't expect we'd cross paths, given<BR>
disparate interests.  Happy to see we agree.  What ever happened to<BR>
civility?  When did 'the end justifies the means' become acceptable for<BR>
everything?  Heck, I could take a police state over anarchy any day if the<BR>
police were polite about it. 8)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
<BR>
"Good manners are never out of place, and politeness is welcomed in every<BR>
civilized place" --me<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:26:46 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Were you aware that the platypus is the only venomous "mammal"?<BR>
><BR>
> Poison 'spurs' on the male.  Used in mating times, IIRC. And I thought that<BR>
> the platypus was a montreme, and not technically a mammal.<BR>
<BR>
Monotremes *are* mammals. At least until they revise things again.<BR>
<BR>
(Digging out "cheat sheet" for Zoology).<BR>
<BR>
Ok, we are definitely talking Metazoan here, working my way down the<BR>
"levels")... <BR>
<BR>
Eumetazoa (Tissues, organs, digestive tract)<BR>
<BR>
Bilateria (body with bilateral symmetry)<BR>
<BR>
Eucoelomata (body cavity lined with mesodermal tissues)<BR>
<BR>
Deuterostomia (Enterocoelous body cavity)<BR>
<BR>
Phylum: Chordata (Tunicates, Lancelets, Vertebrates)<BR>
<BR>
Subphylum: Vertebrata <BR>
<BR>
Class: Mammalia<BR>
<BR>
Subclass: Prototheria<BR>
<BR>
Order: Monotremata<BR>
<BR>
Note that "Primates" (Primata) is an order. <BR>
<BR>
So yes, Platypi are mammals (officially).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:38:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 6/30/00 11:17 AM, webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> issued forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> Poison 'spurs' on the male.  Used in mating times, IIRC. And I thought that<BR>
>> the platypus was a montreme, and not technically a mammal.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Anyone out there know?<BR>
><BR>
> They are monotremes, but monotremes /are/ mammals. Just the egg-laying type.<BR>
> IIRC echidnas and just one or two other critters are monotremes. Echidnas<BR>
> are awful cute, sort of like hedgehogs.<BR>
<BR>
The "cheat sheet"/study guide I'm looking at lists just the platypus<BR>
and the echidnas as members. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:40:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
><BR>
>>I wouldn't advise that. You see, part of the voir dire <BR>
>>process these days usually involves asking you (under <BR>
>>oath) if you intend to rule according to the law or not.<BR>
>>There's been at least one case of a juror doing *exactly* <BR>
>>what you propose to do and then being prosecuted for<BR>
>>*perjury*.<BR>
>>I think that for drug cases they also ask if you<BR>
>>disapprove of the drug laws. Which could get you into the<BR>
>>same bind. Personally, I think those questions shouldn't <BR>
>>be allowed.<BR>
><BR>
> The argument in defense to the perjury charge is that jury<BR>
> nullification is part of the law -- or at the very least,<BR>
> the juror reasonably believed so at the time of the oath<BR>
> and during the trial (probably based on reading the TML). <BR>
> Perjury is, after all, the crime of intentionally stating<BR>
> something that is not true under oath.  There is no<BR>
> negligent perjury.<BR>
<BR>
Wouldn't fly in the case I mentioned. He was asked a question to which<BR>
the truthful answer would have been "no" and answered "yes". And I<BR>
suspected that the question was worded along the lines of "the law as<BR>
presented to you by the judge".<BR>
<BR>
In any case, there's little doubt that he *did* deliberately lie in<BR>
response to questions. I just think that those sorts of questions need<BR>
to either be reined in, or forced to be *very* specific. <BR>
<BR>
I'd love to see the results if the prosecutor had to word it along the<BR>
lines of "Do you think you might excercise your right of jury<BR>
nullification in this case?" After all, that's what they are *really*<BR>
trying to find out. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:46:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"<BR>
>><a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
><BR>
>>Again, based on 20 year old legal training, yes a jury can<BR>
>>do this. However, it's moderated by a judge's power to set<BR>
><BR>
>>aside a jury verdict (ie the judge  can say "You got it <BR>
>>wrong and I'm changing the verdict").<BR>
><BR>
> In the United States, the judge can't change a verdict of<BR>
> acquittal.<BR>
<BR>
Apparently he can in "civil" cases. I recall reading recently of a case<BR>
where a jury rendered a "not guilty" verdict in a patent case, and the<BR>
judge set aside their verdict.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2699<BR>
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